Missing Paperboys /// Chapter 5 /// A Need to Kill | Forensic Files

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[music] [music] [music] >> For our missing paper boy series, we chose to push away much of the noise,
and we focused heavily on telling the story from the perspectives of the experts who worked on these cases, and
later wrote about them in great works of true crime. There were chapters about both the Des
Moines, Iowa cases and Omaha, Nebraska cases in Robert Ressler's book, Whoever Fights Monsters, and Peter Klismet's
book, FBI Diary: Profiles of Evil. We got to know much about Christopher Walden and the Walden family in Harry
Trimbachis' book, My Life as an FBI Special Agent, book two of the Dark Places series.
And we also had the distinct honor of sitting down with Mark Pettit, the man who authored the highly acclaimed A Need
to Kill: The Life and Crimes of John Joubert, Nebraska's most notorious serial child killer, in which
investigative reporter Mark Pettit details how Joubert, a US airman and former Eagle Scout, terrorized
communities in Nebraska and Maine. We learn about Joubert's homicidal fantasies that began when he was very
young. Joubert told Ressler that one of his first fantasies that he remembers is
from when he was just six or seven of coming up behind his babysitter, strangling her, and then eating her
until she disappeared. In 1983, Joubert went on a 116-day killing spree in Omaha, Nebraska,
murdering two young boys, one who was a newspaper carrier. Mark Pettit spent a lot of time with Joubert
and learned things about him that no one else could reveal. Pettit and Joubert held multiple
face-to-face meetings. During these interviews, Joubert confessed to an additional unsolved murder of a boy in
Maine. Pettit's book includes death row drawings made by Joubert while awaiting execution, chilling sketches that reveal
his continued violent fantasies, previously unreleased handwritten letters from Joubert,
new evidence from prison records and details from death row discussions that were not shared publicly for decades.
Before his execution by electric chair on July 17th, 1996 in Nebraska, serial killer John Joubert offered a final
apology, stating, "I just want to say that again, I am sorry for what I have done. I do not know if my death will
change anything or if it will bring anyone any peace. I just ask the families of Danny Eberle,
Christopher Walden, and Richard Stetson to please try to find some peace, and ask the people of Nebraska to
forgive me. That's all." This is True Crime Garage, The Missing Paper Boys, chapter five, A Need to
Kill. >> [music] >> This feels like a long time overdue, but I'm very excited to be joining and
talking with Mark Pettit here in the garage today. Mark Pettit, if that's not a name that you know,
it's a name that you should know because he is an incredible author and reporter.
He has written a book called A Need to Kill, which is on its sixth release. Originally came out in '90 or '91, and
Mark is here to talk to us about this fascinating case. And Mark, first off, congratulations on the success of the
book, and this is release number six, is that correct? >> This is number six, Nick, and thank you
so much for having me on the program. I'm a huge fan, uh and congrats on 10 years. That's uh a
miracle in this world. >> And I was super excited to talk with you because I'm sitting here holding in my
hand right now, I have the uh this is A Need to Kill by Mark Pettit, copyright Mark Pettit 1990,
and this is the one with uh pictures included, 198 pages. The newest version is how many pages?
>> 254 pages, and all color images. The technology has come so far, Nick, uh in publishing. When I first uh you know, if
when I first released the book, I had a publisher, and they printed 2,000 copies
of the book, and you know, that seemed to be a large number at the time. We actually sold out in 2 weeks. I didn't
even have books when I was on a tour, and there were people lined up at the bookstores at the mall, and I was
literally writing out I owe you a book. Uh it just took off, and then Random House called out of the blue and said,
"Hey, we'd like to buy the paperback rights." And the next thing I knew, the book had sold 85,000
copies around the world. And then um uh about 10, 12 years ago, Random House gave me the rights back, and I decided
uh that if I would ever republish, I would do do it myself and work through Amazon. So, that's what happened, and
this is now the final word on the John Joubert case. Well, and this is a case that has fascinated many, so much so
that it is mentioned in many books. Uh a few that I can think of are as follows: FBI Diary: Profiles in
Evil by Peter Klismet. We also have My Life as an FBI Special Agent, book two, by Harry Trimbachis, and we have Whoever
Fights Monsters by the late, great Robert Ressler. And some of these individuals are discussed in your book
as well. And before we get into the investigation, before we get into why this book continues to evolve for 40
years now, because that's the length of the story, and that's how long you've been involved in this story,
and it continues to have purpose and to have reason to update the book. But I mentioned these three great books,
but there is no better book on this case. There is no book that is as thorough on this case, and I love that
you've continued to update it and let it evolve throughout the years, and now we
are getting the final word in this story. So, let's before we get too much in the weeds
here, Mark, let's go all the way back to September of 1983 in Bellevue, Nebraska, a city that is southeast of
Omaha and very near the Nebraska-Iowa state line. Describe the location. Describe that town, that city at that
time. What were your observations? It was a great place to live. I loved Omaha, Nebraska, and Bellevue is just a
a suburb uh near the city, and like you said, not far from Iowa, not far from where Johnny Gosch had disappeared. And
I'm sure Nick you'll remember remember that name as well. And that's another reason I got
interested in this case, but it was 1983 as you said, September 3rd, and that's when 116 days of terror started for the
people of Omaha. And back then you were working for KMTV? Yes. I was recruited to KMTV in 1984 just after the killer
had been arrested and had played guilty to these murders. But I grew up not far from Atlanta, Georgia, and in high
school became sort of obsessed with the Atlanta missing and murdered children's case.
And so that's what got me interested in being an investigative reporter. And when I got recruited to Omaha, I was at
the Omaha Press Club with the news director from KMTV, and she said, "Mark, what got you interested in investigative
reporting?" And I said, "Wayne Williams." And she said, "Oh, that's the killer from Atlanta, right?" And I said,
"Yes." And she said, "Well, we sort of have our own Wayne Williams here. Have you ever heard the name John Joubert?"
And of course I hadn't. But what I learned was he was a US airman. He was an Eagle Scout and an
assistant scoutmaster in Omaha. So, you know, you would think that's the best of the best, right? But as it
turned out, he was a monster living among the people of Nebraska. And Carol said, "Yes,
he he he he he just got convicted or he played guilty to killing two young boys here, and I'd really like you to
get on the case." And I said, "Carol, why do you need me? He's on death row." She said, "Mark, we know what happened.
We don't know why it happened. Take this job, get on this case, tell us why it happened." And that's when it started,
Nick. I was 21 years old. >> Let's go to Sunday, September 18th, 1983. We're at the Eberly household, and
it's just before 6:00 a.m. And the family is saying goodbye. They had relatives in town, so they were up early
to go back to the Dakotas. And Danny's out saying goodbye to his aunt and uncle. And he's got to get off on his
paper route. His little his little brother has already gone on his route. And [snorts] I spent hours
talking to the Eberly family, you know, about what happened, about Danny Joe. And one of the things that still gives
me chills to this day is Judy Eberly, Danny's mother, said, "Something told her to step back from the goodbyes." And
she watched Danny pedal away on his bicycle, and something told her, "Don't let him go. Don't let him go on that
paper route." But she said to herself, "Don't be silly, Judy. Don't be silly." So, Danny Joe goes off on his paper
route, and you know, not long after the phone starts ringing at the at the Eberlys'
home because, you know, back in the day people love their Omaha World-Herald on a Sunday morning, right? So, the phone
starts ringing, and people are saying they didn't get their newspaper. And Danny Joe's mother knew that something
wasn't right. So, after a while of of waiting a little longer, they started they started going out on the paper
route, and three doors in, they found Danny Joe's bicycle and his stack of papers on the ground. And they knew
something terrible had happened to their son. How long are they looking for their
son before, unfortunately, his body is discovered? Three days. They've been searching, you know, all over town, and
they brought in 130 lawmen from across the state. And they they they spread out over a
certain area. And about 20 minutes into the search, John Colterman, a sheriff from a smaller
county in Nebraska, found Danny Joe's body. And it was horrible. He had been stabbed in the back, in the chest. The
back of his neck had been slashed. And then there were three bite marks on the boy's body, two on his upper shoulder
and one on the upper backside of his leg. And initially, Nick, police thought they might be dealing with a serial
killer because it looked like there had been a star cut into the bite mark on Danny Joe's leg. But as it turned out,
the killer was trying to mask the bite mark and used his knife to slice open the little boy's leg to cover the bite
wound. So, it was horrible. Now the city is really in a panic when Danny Joe's body is
found. At the abduction site, they as you said, they find his papers, they find his bicycle.
It seems with this one that it was rather obvious that we're talking about an abduction that or at least that
police were working with that theory right away. Is that correct? >> That's correct. And again, as I'd
mentioned previously, the the Johnny Gosch case, another boy kidnapped in Iowa, already had FBI and police in this area
on alert. So, when Danny Joe goes missing and it appears to be a kidnapping, I think things kicked into
really high gear, Nick. That they were worried that this could be something very very serious. Go through those
injuries again because they are very specific and and unique, some of them unique to this case. Also, the killer
takes Danny Joe. He has his hands and feet bound. There is tape on his mouth, and the young boy is taken into this
grassy area. Made to strip down to his underwear. The killer had untied him initially. Made him take off his shirt
and his pants and retied him up. So, this is of interest that we'll get to later. And the boy is stabbed four or
five times in the back and then stabbed, I think, four more times. He's flipped over and just brutally stabbed in the
chest four or five more times. Then the killer slices his neck, and as we'll get
into the psychology here, the the killer was just consumed with rage and excitement, and that's when he began to
bite the boy's body, twice on his shoulder and once on the backside of his leg. There's no so cannibalistic nature.
>> And about how far from the abduction site do they find Danny Joe Eberly's body? I think it was
less than a couple of miles, not far at all. And I think the killer, you know, at least was somewhat familiar with the
area, at least enough to find what he thought was an area slightly out of the way
where he wouldn't be caught. And it was so early in the morning, Nick, that you know, nobody was really out and about at
5:45 in the morning. >> The bite marks that you had referenced, take us into the psychology of that. We
may and if you don't know, I mean, it's understandable. We may not know, but what do you think that the killer was
attempting to do with cutting up those bite marks? Was it was it something he was ashamed of? Was it something that
the killer was trying to conceal from police? It almost seems like the bites were regrettable injuries that he
inflicted on the victim and probably after the fact wished that he had not done that for any number of reasons.
>> I think it's all of the above, Nick. And this is again what's so fascinating about this case is is we'll leap forward
in about 30 years to where criminal psychology and behavior has advanced to today that tells us a lot about what
happened that morning. But I think that the killer was overly excited, driven by
sexual fantasies, and it just it became too much excitement for him. So, I think
these were regrettable injuries that he caused on the victim's body, and he was trying to hide his tracks by
slicing around the bite wound to try to cover it up. So, I think a regrettable injury is a really good way of putting
it. And then as you said, the town, of course, is on high alert. That's an understatement. But then you compound
that with the fact that we have a similar abduction for to Johnny Gosch that had happened just months prior to
Danny Joe Eberly. And in the Johnny Gosch case, we know that his body is still to this
day, we've never found Johnny Gosch. So, we're on high alert here, but we don't get too much time that passes. We get
what? Less than 3 months, and now we have another boy who disappears. Yep, this is horrible. A second boy goes
missing. His name is Christopher Walden. It was December 2nd, 1983. He was kidnapped and murdered on his way
to school that morning, and it had, you know, started snowing. He had his little
boots on, and he was walking to school. Again, snatched from his route. Similarly to Danny Joe Eberly, the young
boy was made to strip down to his underwear, bound, gagged, sadly also stabbed to death and left to die
in the snow that was starting to fall that morning. And just it's just tragic, some of the
the evidence that came out, Nick. And I know that as a writer, you've done a lot
of investigating yourself. But in Christopher's pocket, they found two shiny dimes. And later, when I talked to
his mom and dad, Sue Walden told me that was money he had planned to use for extra milk that that day at school. So,
it just brings home how tragic this is, how that could have been anybody's kid, anybody's little brother. And just it
wasn't robbery. I mean, police knew instantly that was not what this was about. And now here they are in Omaha,
Nebraska in the span of you know, 100 days, they have two little boys brutally murdered in that city. And you can just
imagine the fear that is now sweeping that community. And prosecutor Mike Wellman said something very interesting
to me. He said, "I have never seen fear like that in my life, and I hope I never see fear like
that again. It was just awful for the people uh living in Omaha, Nebraska." >> Now, I know that the first abduction
takes place very early in the morning, not a lot of people out, but we do have with the Christopher Walden case, he
goes missing as he's walking to school. Do we have a witness or any witnesses in
either of these abductions? Actually, we have two in the case of Christopher Walton. And you'll read about it in the
book. Uh there's a woman named Cheryl Baumgartner who who thought she saw something happen. She thought she saw
the vehicle following Christopher Walton that morning. And through hypnosis, they
were able to get a couple of things out of Cheryl. A partial tag number, and she told me she saw this tree. There
was something that stuck in her mind, this green pine tree. And so, when you read A Need to Kill,
you'll read the full therapy session where they hypnotized Cheryl. And she she's able to give them the
partial tag number. And enough of a description, she and the other lady that the police are able to put a sketch out
into the marketplace. Uh and it does eerily look like the killer that's ultimately caught. But Cheryl later, you
know, and it took a while for her to deal with the trauma of witnessing the abduction and not being able to do
anything about it. But you know, she goes back to the scene of the crime, you know, months and months later. And she
sees the sign that marks a nature trail. And she sees that green tree on the sign. And that's when she knew that she
wasn't crazy, that she had seen something that morning. And that's what really kicked the case into even higher
gear is when they had the sketch. And then they have the behavioral analysis, Bob Ressler who you mentioned earlier,
fantastic, you know, FBI agent, a pioneer in criminal profiling. He was brought into this case. Bob's profile
was in my book, but he said that it would be most likely a a white male, late teens, early 20s at the latest, not
overly educated, and most likely a blue collar job. And that turned out to be very close
to the description of the killer that we'll get into, I'm sure, in just a moment. And the witness, at least in one
of the cases, says that they believe that they saw a tan car being driven by a white male. With both of these cases
now, bodies found, what kind of evidence are the detectives and now the FBI working with in these cases? They're
working with one important piece of evidence that they have not told the public about. And that was a piece of
rope that when found uh and cut opened, it had these colored fibers. And it mystified police. They were
looking everywhere for this really unique strand of rope that had these frayed colors. And I have photos of the
book, which I uh now I'm happy to to say are in color, so you can see for yourself why police were so drawn to it.
They went all the way to Scotland Yard trying to find this piece of rope. So, they have the behavioral analysis, they
have the rope, and they think they know what the guy looks like, right? Slight build, dark hair, olive complexion. But
that could have been hundreds of thousands of people and men in that area. And this is another thing that
people don't know until they read the book is that police had had cultivated what they called the
perv squad. They had hundreds, if not thousands, of leads coming into the command center. And a lot of those leads
were about sexual predators who might have been preying on uh specifically young boys in the area. So, they had
this list compiled, and they actually went down the wrong road on several of these guys to the point of almost
charging one of the guys. But that was just a wild goose chase. You know, they were tracking every lead they could, but
they weren't on the right trail just yet. This is something that is so common, especially in these types of
investigations, and pardon the lewd terminology here that we use in the garage, but we call this the old pervert
roundup because that's absolutely what they do. They And And today, their law enforcement is even more equipped to do
the old pervert roundup because everybody is in a database somewhere, and you can go and you can go and talk
to, interview, check out each one of these guys. You can do a quick sweep of their home if you feel that it's
necessary when they're under you talk with their PO and search their vehicle. It's It's a very quick way to
hit the ground running and get your investigation going and looking at the people that are that in some form or
fashion fit the profile of a person being capable of similar crimes because we do know with when it comes to child
sex crimes, the recidivism rates, unfortunately, are quite high. And then, as you said, they get real close on
somebody because it sounds to me like they they get this guy. They know he's already been molesting young boys, boys
that are about the same ages as our our victims here. He fails a polygraph test.
He has no alibi. Do you remember what moved them off of this guy? Because I sit here looking at
this guy, false alibi, fails the poly, similar crimes. He would have been so easy to charge for this. I think it was
Pat Thomas. He said, "I knew it wasn't him. I had a gut feeling." And Nick, I know that you're into the uh the way
lawmen work and investigative techniques. Pat Thomas was the sheriff of Sarpy County, so he was the lead guy
uh on this case. And if you've watched the movie Walking Tall, I've described Pat as Buford Pusser. Uh big, burly guy,
6'5", 300 lb, but a teddy bear on the inside. And what a lot of people don't know is that Pat was a elementary school
teacher before he got into law enforcement. So, kids were very important to him. And he just had a gut
feeling that the guy you're speaking about wasn't the right person, wasn't the right suspect. And as it turned out,
he wasn't. But Pat Thomas was also doing something that I think was brilliant at
the time. He was talking to the killer through the media. And as I said, I spent 2 years before I even spoke to the
killer. I've seen every piece of evidence. I've watched all the interviews with law enforcement. Uh Pat
Thomas actually let me check out the evidence. So, Nick, I want you to imagine in this day and age, a
out the evidence in the case. Now, the killer is in prison on death row, but Pat believed in me. He thought I was
honest and trying to put, you know, all the pieces together. I had the rope. I had the murder weapon. I had the crime
scene photos. I had the autopsy photos. Everything at my fingertips to investigate this. But Pat did something.
He was talking to a reporter, and he said, "You know what? It's easy to kill little kids. This guy's a coward.
If he uh is a man, he'll pick on someone his own size." And as he said that, he looked past the reporter directly into
the camera and said, "He'll pick on someone his own size." And guess what? The killer was watching, was listening.
And that's what's going to lead us to the big break coming up in just a minute [music] when I tell you what happened.
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>> [music] [music] >> You're right. [music] This This guy that looks as good as he did or as good as
any for one if not both of these murders, they move off of that suspect. Partly, as you said, gut feeling, but
things start to not line up so well for him being the best suspect. One of those
and FBI would should not, and I hope that they do not, move off of someone because
they don't fit the profile. But that is what is said about that particular suspect that they they didn't fit the
profile. What we would later learn is the real true suspect does fit the profile
very nice and neatly. We talked a little bit about the evidence that they were working with. If we could track down
that rope, if we could figure out where it came from, if it is in fact unique enough, then we should know when we have
our guy because our guy may be in the possession of additional rope that is is somewhat hard to find. Correct. So
that was the missing part. If they could find that rope, they could find the killer. That was the theory. So they're
going all over town and all over the state and I believe they they went nationwide looking for similar rope.
Where Where was it manufactured from? Where was it purchased from? How did our killer
get to be in possession of this rope? It's still partly a mystery of where he got it, but uh and this is so ironic. I
was back in Nebraska last week doing a college tour talking to journalism students and criminal justice students
about this. And as it turns out, one of the professors of criminal justice was actually a prison guard assigned to uh
Joubert uh on on death row. And they figured out that it was a Navy man's rope. And that the rope uh the reason it
had those color fibers, it needed to be lightweight so the service members could
carry it, but it needed to be really strong if they ever had to use it. So he was able to give me that piece of
evidence that it was a Navy man's rope and those brightly colored fibers were to make the rope stronger. So see what
I'm saying, Nick? It's just that uh all this time later, little pieces of evidence are coming
together to put the full picture together. It's just It's just amazing. >> Was there any thought or I'm sure there
was thought placed to it, but was there any proof that the cuz the way that these crimes
look, like that it was a snatch and grab. Some Some poor random boy is on the street and there's a predator out
there prowling looking for a victim and that might be how the killer found and procured his victim was just simply came
across them. One boy out on his paper route, another boy walking to school. Was there any thought though or anything
to that was suggestive that maybe these boys had been watched or seen by the killer before? I believe that they were.
I believe um and having talked to the killer, you know, multiple times on death row, he told me he had gone out
scouting for victims. Um he'd actually looked at snatching a little girl, he told me. Uh but I really
didn't believe that the more that I talked with him and and learned of uh you know, what attracted him to the
victims, it was young boys. Uh but I believe that he also uh as we'll talk about a a little bit later, uh there's a
third murder that I am able to solve uh after talking to the killer and similarly, he had stalked the young boy
at least for a few hours if not a couple of days ahead of that. And I have to believe that it might have been by
instruction of the way of the FBI to the police. And we have a a few different agencies working this case at the time
and we can get into those. I do want to get into those different agencies and and you to tell us a little bit about
them. But one thing that I've seen time and time again, when you have, as you say, here that fear, right? This This is
a fear that is almost paralyzing the city and it's something that everybody in Bellevue is aware of and and even the
big brother sister of Omaha, everybody there at this time in the fall of '83 and the winter of '83, they are aware of
what's going on, right? There's no mistake about that. >> Oh, there's no mistake about it. And the
first thing that the FBI will tell the local authorities to do is we need a super
cop. We need somebody that we can put in front of our bad guy that can that can set that can aggravate him
that can move him off his mark, that can agitate him, that he somebody that he can see and identify as a worthy
adversary, right? We know we're looking for the face of evil. Let's present a face of good and champion one of our
cops or detectives or police chief or a sheriff and give this guy something something to to hate, something to fight
against almost because we're all fighting against him. And you said you said that that's exactly what they did.
That super cop was Pat Thomas. And again, he is a lawman's lawman. He looks the part, he sounds the part, and he was
super smart. He knew exactly what he was doing. He knew the killer was watching.
He wanted, as you said Nick, to get him off his mark. He knew that if they could
get him away from kids to try to get him to go after an adult, someone closer to
his own age, that he might make a mistake. And that's exactly what happened. Not that they're trying to
encourage the criminal to go out and commit another crime, especially a violent act, but it's not again to the
psychology of it. They are working with a couple of things inside of their tool belt right here where they're going,
"Okay, this guy is is selecting boys for a reason." And it's got to be some type
of sexual proclivity, but also it has to do with his thinking of well, I I don't
want to be overpowered. I I I need a victim that I can easily control, that I can gain power control of and overpower
myself and and yeah, you're right. It's if they if he pushes buttons and get him to pick
on someone his own size, as they said. And if he does that either physically he's not going to be able to
carry out that attack or emotionally and mentally unable to to carry out that attack as well. What what does this
does this push the killer into doing anything? It does. On January 11th John Joubert goes out hunting for
another victim. But there was also some problems. He needed money. His car was in the shop. He was He had a rental car
at this time. So he made the decision that he was going to go to this preschool and rob the teacher. He had He
had driven past the school several times. And that teacher was a woman named Barbara Weaver. And it's so
interesting having talked to her. She She had two small children at the time. And she said, like everybody else, they
were in fear of what was happening in their community. And each morning they would say a prayer for Danny Joe
Eberle's family and for Christopher Walden's family. And that morning Barbara Weaver said she said an extra
prayer. She said, "God, please use me in any way you need to bring this nightmare
to an end." And guess what? At 8:15 John Joubert comes calling to the Aldersgate United
Methodist Church where Barbara Weaver is a preschool teacher. Her assistant isn't
there yet. The kids aren't there yet. Barbara is getting ready for her her kids to come to class and she sees this
car circle the church like two to three times. And then her heart starts racing as it
pulls into the driveway and a young man steps out. And she thinks she recognizes
him. So he comes to the door. There's a knock at the door. She felt like she had to
answer and so she cracks the door open. And there he stands. And she told me at that moment she knew exactly who it was.
She was trying to look at him to get a description in case she needed it. And he said, "I need to use your phone. Can
I use your phone?" And she lied to him and told him there wasn't a phone. And he told her at that moment, "Get
back inside or I'm going to kill you." And Barbara said she just instinctively fought back. She pushed the door. She
pushed it open. She ran past the the guy at the door and she looked back and she
saw the tag number. And she started repeating the tag number as she started as she continued to run. She slips and
falls, hits her knuckles on the pavement. It's cold, but she remembers that tag number. And she gets to the
pastor's house and she says, "It's him. It's the killer. He tried to kill me." So they calm her down. They call the
police who immediately come rushing to the scene. And Barbara Weaver gives them the piece of evidence that they've been
looking for. It's the tag number for that rental car. >> And obviously that leads them to the
rental car and then through the paperwork they're going to find who it was rented to.
And that leads them to John Joubert who who is a rather young man himself at the time. Describe John for the
listeners and what is going on in his other than being a monster, what is going on in his life at this time? So
John Joubert was born in Lawrence, Massachusetts in 1963. So this would put him in the age bracket of 20 years old
when this was happening. He was an airman at Offutt Air Force Base which is right there
in the suburb of of Omaha. Ironically, Danny Joe Eberle's home, the fence along their property line, you could jump over
that fence and you'd be on Offutt Air Force Base. That's how close John Joubert was to the Eberle family. So
Joubert worked at a He was a maintenance man working on a radar for the Air Force Base. So it's
building 400, room 113. Police and the FBI rush to Offutt. They go to his room. They beat on the door and they have to
wake him up. He's come back and he's he's gone to sleep. The agents told me that
his room was an absolute mess. There was stuff everywhere. Shoes, detective magazines just strewn about
the room. And guess what they found in his duffel bag. They go in, they're searching and they
find the rope. They find the piece of rope that had been used to tie up Danny Joe Eberle and and bam! They think
they've got their guy. And again, you talk about the super cop. There were two other law enforcement
people who played a very important part here. One is a guy named Lee Polikoff. Lee was the chief deputy to Pat Thomas.
Lee told me he took it upon himself to be the protector of Joubert from this moment forward. He knew there were
people were people in the community that wanted to kill the killer once they caught him.
He also knew that they had to be very careful not to trample on his rights. So Lee became the champion of protecting
the suspect. And another young lieutenant Jim Sanderson became the lead interrogator. And Jim had a a newborn
daughter at this time and we talked about this a lot of how scared he was, you know, for people in his community.
And what a wreck he was not being able to sleep at night. He would just go when he finally got a few hours off the
search, he would come home and just look at his little baby in that crib and he thought, "How can I protect her if I
can't find him?" So all these, you know, personalities, they're you know, so dedicated to the community.
And now they have the suspect and it's John Joubert. This part of the story is told very well in your book, but
just taking a look here on the surface, it's a bit confusing cuz it looks like for a period of time Joubert was
considering fighting the charges in court, but he ultimately ends up confessing to the murders. Is that
correct? That's correct. He was being interviewed by Jim Sanderson. And Jim basically did the good cop, bad cop
thing. But he said he he switched it to Joubert, you know, I'm sure there's a good John in there, but I think there's
a bad John who might have done this, who might have killed these boys. And you know, I think the good John wants to
help the bad John in some way or wants to keep him off the street. So I'm calling on the good John to help us get
to the bad John. And I think just after a while, Nick, he realized it was over and he confessed to killing both Danny
Joe Eberle and Christopher Walden. He doesn't get any leniency for his confession, for pleading guilty,
does he? Absolutely not. And this also surprised me. I've never heard of a killer pleading
guilty when they're facing the death penalty without some sort of deal. Have you? No.
I didn't quite understand that, why there wasn't some sort of deal cut with his public defender to say, "Okay, he's
going to plead guilty, take the death penalty off off the table. You've got your guy, right?" But I think at the
time these crimes were so heinous, the fear in that community was so overwhelming
that the judges felt they had no no choice. There was a three-judge panel. Uh the parents of the victims wrote
letters asking for Joubert to be executed. His mother wrote a letter asking the judges to spare him because
she felt like there had to be some good in her son. But as I write in the book, the the the judges say, "While the
letters were cathartic, they played no decision in they played no role in their ultimate decision." And that was
unanimously to sentence Joubert to die in Nebraska's electric chair. So, I was with you. I was like, "How did
this happen?" There was absolutely no leniency, no deal, and he gets the death penalty.
Well, and I kind of think that that has maybe a lot to do with what's going on in our country at the time. And
when you take and consider all of the child killers in the '70s, and you know, you referenced
uh the Atlanta child killings, then you have things like Adam Walsh who disappears down in Hollywood, Florida.
Keep in mind, you know, 1983, that's when the Adam Walsh movie comes out nationally, made-for-TV movie, and
really is I I think that this just shows Omaha, it shows Nebraska, and it shows the the
nation just how fed up we were with these types of offenders. People taking our kids off of the streets and doing
horrible things to them. I mean, with at least one of these two poor boys, they had the wounds were suggestive that
there was torture prior to the to the killing. If there ever were a case where you think that somebody could plead
guilty and get it reduced to a life sentence, I would have thought it would have been
here, really just because of the optics of it. When you look at pictures of John
Joubert at the time of his arrest, he looks like a boy himself. Exactly. You know, Eagle Scout. You'll see the
picture of of him in my book. Uh you know, smiling. He he looks like the kid next door, right? So, I think
you're right. You you would you'd think there might be some sympathy. Just he's meek, he's small, you know, um
but there was no mercy for him. 5'6" and and to me in those photos, he looks 16 years old. And when I first, many years
ago when I first looked into this case, I thought after having seen those pictures,
I just kind of made the assumption that maybe the boys got into the vehicle willingly because they thought they were
getting in the vehicle with a peer, not an adult. You know, just oh, here's some
boy that's a few years older than me. But but everything we know today says no. John Joubert approached both of
these boys with a knife and the the the threat was there immediately to to make the abductions
successful. And you look at the size of the boys. Danny Joe Eberle was 5'2", 100
100 lbs. But his father said the same thing. He could not believe as scrappy as Danny was, they would wrestle from
time to time, he could not to save his life figure out why Danny Joe didn't fight back. But I think they were just
they were just caught off guard, Nick, in that moment. A guy pulls a knife and puts it to your throat and he says, "Get
in the car." You know, and I think they thought that maybe he would let them go, right? He
definitely picked people who were smaller than him that he could handle. I think if it got
in if there were were a struggle. And then after he's arrested and after the guilty plea, along comes Mark Pettit.
Tell So, tell us how you said how you first became aware of the story, but what is your first
boots-on-the-ground action in this story? Now, you're working it. You're working it now. Carol, my news
director, comes to me with a thick folder of information. She goes, "Here's everything you're going to need to get
started." And it was initial police reports, copies of stories that their reporters
had done, transcripts from the court case. She took me to we we had a file library, you know, back in this time
period of TV news, there were tapes that we would keep stacked and encoded and you know, logged where we could go back
and you would see on the news file footage, right? Well, that was what it was. There was a file room. Tape room.
hours Tape room. I spent hours and hours going through the reports, going through
watching the interviews, and trying, you know, to to understand the case the best
that I could. And as I said, I I I went to meet Sheriff Thomas. I met Jim Sanderson. I met Lee Polikoff. I met all
the players. I talked to Bob Ressler. So, all this goes on for 2 years, Nick. And I I finally say to his
court-appointed attorney, "Listen, they're going to execute him before I talk to him. Why don't you let me talk
to him? We wanted to why this happened." And he just refused. He said, "It's not I can't
let you do it. It's going to jeopardize his his appeals." And so, I just got tired of waiting. So, I sat down at my
typewriter and I banged out a letter to John Joubert that you will see in my book, A Need to Kill.
And I did something that cracked the case wide open. I put a pre-postage-paid envelope into my letter where he could
write me back. And that envelope is is is in my book. You'll see what came back. I walked into the newsroom. It was
about 2 weeks after I had sent the letter to Joubert. And, you know, didn't hear anything back. So, I thought he's
not going to respond. And we had these mailboxes made out of wood and, you know, slats. And mine said Pettit. And
occasionally my mom would send me a a card or a letter. And I look into my slot and there's nothing there. But then
something a piece of paper catches my eye. And as it turns out, the envelope was flush against my mailbox. So, I
reach in and I slide it out. And I was I say to myself, "Wait a second. That's the envelope I sent to Joubert."
And sure enough, it was the return envelope with my name, KMTV's address, and in the left-hand corner, he had
scratched out our address for the TV station and written in John Joubert, inmate number, Lincoln, Nebraska. And my
heart was pounding. When I took that letter to my desk, I, you know, tore it open and I pulled
out the letter. And from the second I started reading the letter, I was amazed. I could not
believe, A, the penmanship. Just so well written, beautiful penmanship. And then
I started reading the letter and I thought to myself, "Wait a second. The criminal profile is not quite correct
here. This guy is really smart." And you'll read the full letter in in in the book. But he basically says, "I'm not
going to do an interview, but I would not be opposed to you coming down here to Lincoln to present your questions
with the understanding that I'm under no obligation to do an interview. Should you choose not to come, I have two
questions for you. There is no need to respond. Do you think airing a piece on me
would only amplify the hurt of the victim's family? And do you honestly believe that people
could come away watching such a piece and understand who John Joubert really is? Would they not say rather, 'It's
only an act to gain our sympathy.' There is no need to respond." So, Nick, it was he was asking me
questions and I'm the reporter. But if you heard those that that sentence, "I would not be opposed to you coming here
to present your questions." So, I go immediately to my boss and I said, "Good news, bad news.
Joubert wrote me back. He's not going to do the interview, but he said I could come and meet with him." She said, "Go.
Schedule it. Get it Get it on the books." And so, like that Thursday, I was able to go down and that was the
first of seven face-to-face death row interviews with John Joubert. Um and it was the start of of a case
that, you know, typically a reporter follows a case. This case has followed me for 40 years. And it started with
that one interview. >> What was it like going there and meeting Joubert for the first time?
Nerve-racking. I had worried over how do I address him? I despised what he had done. You know,
but I I just felt like if I had gone in hostile, he wasn't going to to respond to that. So, I decided to just neither
condone nor condemn. I was just going to try to talk to him. So, I get there and
I'm going through security. They're putting my briefcase through machine and the guard looks at me and says, "Are you
nervous?" And I said, "To be honest, yes." And he said, "It's okay once you get past his eyes." So, I knew
immediately when John Joubert walked into that conference room where they had me waiting for him and I saw those eyes,
they were the eyes of a shark. Just dark, gray, uncaring. And I stood up and extended my hand and
said, "I'm Mark Pettit." And he said, "I'm John Joubert." And they left us alone. So, that first interview, you
know, it starts off I'm just trying to break the ice with him and it turns into about a 2 and 1/2 hour
conversation. And he starts to warm up in certain parts of it and then I would try to press him on details of the
killings and he would become robotic. And I write in the book and it was like he was reciting a poem he never wanted
to memorize. So, we get through the first interview and I say, "Look, I think you've got a
lot to tell. I I would really like to do an interview on camera so that you could
speak directly to the people of Nebraska." And that's when he said, "I'll think about it." So, I leave, I
come back and it's about another 2 weeks and then I get the letter saying that he
is not going to do the interview. But he said, "I wouldn't mind continuing our discussions. We continue having our
discussions for 7 more months approximately. And during this time it becomes a really interesting game of cat
and mouse. He would say, "Well, did you look at this piece of evidence? Did you think about this?" And he said,
"Well, I think maybe you should go back to Portland, Maine where I came from. You might find some interesting things
back there." And I said, "What What do you mean by interesting things, John?" And he said,
"Well, there are some unsolved crimes back there." And he goes on to tell me that as a young boy he had stabbed a
young girl in the back with a pencil as she rode by him on a bicycle. And he tells me he had started having fantasies
about killing his own babysitter. And he's 6 and 7 years old. So, it progresses to he stabs the little girl
in the back with a pencil. He said, "Then I slashed this little boy's throat with my X-Acto knife."
And I said, "Okay." And then he said, "And then I stabbed a woman on her way to school. She She's She was going to be
a teacher. I stabbed her on her way to college." And he said, "As I said, you should go
to Portland. You might find some interesting things back there." So, I do You know, I'm doing the news at the
station on the weekend. I'm trying to further my investigation of the case and I buy a
ticket and I go back to Portland, Maine and guess what? I go to the police station and I go to the newspaper
office. I find the police report about the little girl stabbed with a pencil. I find the newspaper clipping. I find the
the police report about the little boy's throat slashed. I find the newspaper clipping. Then the teacher stabbed on
her way to school. Everything that Joubert told me was true and he had committed these crimes and the police
had no clue that he was the person responsible. And then I found a police report and an
unsolved case and that was the murder of Ricky Stetson. And that's when things took a whole new twist.
>> Before we get to the murder of Ricky Stetson, the the crimes that he was telling you about
victims' names excluded, but he was a boy. He was a teenager committing these crimes, correct? Exactly. And he
told me it started at 6 years old. And you know, and that's how I got the name of the book. One of the very first
questions I asked Joubert, I said, "Why did you do this? You didn't know these little boys." And he said, "Mark, for as
long as I can remember, I've just had a need to kill." Still gives me goosebumps to say those
words. But he said, "Yeah, it started when I was 6 years old. I hated my babysitter. I wanted to kill her. And it
would be like a light switch. I would turn it off and she would be gone." But I said, "Did it progress?" And that's
when he said, "Yes. Then I started acting out more." And that is when he told me about, you know, the pencil and
the X-Acto knife. It just became became progressively more violent. Did he talk to you in depth about the
Nebraska victims? Yes. He did. And so, was it nothing off-limits for your conversations? No.
Never did I tell him the discussion was off the record. He told me everything. And just some
heartbreaking things like little Christopher Walden, he had him in the floorboard in the front of the car
and the boy is crying. He's begging Joubert to let him go and Joubert said, "I actually thought about just stopping
the car and pushing him out into the street because he felt sorry for Christopher as
well." And then he said, "No, he's seen my face. I can't let him go." And that's
when he kept driving and took him to the to the grassy area where he made the Christopher walk into the to the weeds
and strip off his clothes and it was really starting to get cold and that's when the snow came a couple days later.
It's I mean, an unbelievable shame that the if there was any good in John Joubert,
it didn't come out after he had abducted those two boys and had the opportunity to let them go. The The flip of that is
he had to have had You know, he's a Scouts assistant. He's He's around boys of this same age.
He had to have some kind of even if it's short-run, but meaningful relationship with with boys of the same age. He did.
And in the book there's a young boy that I refer to as Jeremy Culver. Jeremy was
a member of Joubert's Scout troop in Nebraska. And Jeremy was along the same age as Danny Joe and Christopher and it
really bothered him. He couldn't understand why they didn't fight back. And he actually brought a piece of rope to
Joubert to one of their their Scout meetings that said, "I don't understand it. Why didn't those boys fight back? I
want you to tie me up. I want I want to see if I could escape." So, if you can imagine Joubert
this is his friend, a young boy that he has a relationship with and he is being asked to tie the boy up
like he tied up Danny Joe Eberle, like he tied up Christopher Walden. So, there were all these thoughts. Joubert said,
"It was It was driving me crazy because I wanted to do what Jeremy was asking me
to do, but it was also exciting me. And I was starting to have those feelings that I felt when I took Danny Joe and
when I took Christopher." And this is what Pat Thomas told me. He said, "Jeremy Culver would have been his next
victim." That little boy was on his way to getting murdered and he's lucky that it didn't happen. So, Joubert ties
Jeremy up and he's squirming around and Joubert comes to his senses and says, "Stop it. Stop it.
>> [snorts] >> I told you this wouldn't happen. It would never happen to you." So, just really interesting how close
that boy came uh to possibly being a victim. But the way he pushed Joubert to, you know, from a friendship to
feeling those same thoughts of killing another young boy. This youngster has no idea that he's asking
the actual killer to reenact this on him to say, you know, why didn't these guys Why didn't these other boys
put up a fight? Why didn't they try to get away? It's just he's This young boy's trying to figure out get in the
minds of the victims, I guess, in the the news stories that are on the news every night and in the paper every day
that he's become so familiar with during this time while they're looking for the
guy who did it. Meanwhile, the the his Scout assistant that he's asking to tie him up is the is that guy. And then
with Joubert, so what was it about the when you find the Stetson case, what was it about that case that told you, "Okay,
this is probably John Joubert, another John Joubert victim?" Ricky Stetson had gone out for
a jog around this area called Back Bay and it was a a beautiful picturesque back cove in Portland, Maine. He told
his mom that he'd be back just in a little while. He wanted to run around the water. And Ricky was a a small kid,
too. Like 11 years old. Very very slight build, red-headed. So, he never comes home. And then, you
know, the police the next day they find his little body. He, too, had been stabbed to death.
And they found something very interesting. And that was a bite mark on the boy's body.
So, when I found the police report and I realized it was another young boy stabbed to death, and then when I saw
the bite mark, I brought that back to the penitentiary and I said, "John, you were right about
Portland. There were There were a lot of things back there that I I I needed to know, and you told me the truth about
the the stabbings and the slashings, but there's one crime that has not been solved. I need you to tell me, did you
kill Ricky Stetson?" And everything The world stops, and he reaches across the table. I had recorded all of our
conversations, and he stops my tape recorder. And he says, "Listen, I know you. I can't lie to you, but the
last time I played guilty to anything, I got the death penalty." So, boom. Basically, he's confessed to killing
Rick Ricky Stetson. And by this time, this is our I think our seventh uh or maybe even the eighth interview that
I did with him on death row, and I was I told him, "I think I'm going to write a book about the case." And that's when
I really had to make a decision. Do I include that quote in this book? So, I struggled with it because as I
said, everything was on the record, but as a reporter and as an investigative reporter, Nick, you know this from your
work, your word is what you have when you're dealing with with people uh who are giving you information they
aren't giving other people. But, I struggled, and I just decided I'm a reporter, I have to tell the truth. I
did not go to the police in advance, I did not go to the FBI, but I put the book out, the very first
edition, which you have a copy of, and I put the quote in there that I just gave you. I can't tell you that I didn't
do it, but the last time I played guilty to anything, I got the death penalty. So, the book comes out, and the case
blows up, and the next thing I know, the FBI is at the TV station where I'm working in Atlanta,
and the receptionist says, "You have two vi- visitors, and they're from the FBI."
So, I come out, and they said, "Hey, Mark, uh Agent So-and-so, Agent So-and-so, we read your book, and that's
why we're here. We're going to need all your records on John Joubert. We're going to need all the audio files. We're
going to need everything." And I somehow had the presence of mind to say, "You're
going to have to talk to my lawyer." I didn't have a lawyer. >> [laughter] >> Um you know, I had funded all this on my
own, all this investigation, I did in my spare time. I'm working for a new TV station in Atlanta. They have no vested
interest, but I called my agent, I said, "Listen, the FBI just showed up. Uh they're they're after my records." And
she said, "Don't do it. That's You're an investigative reporter. Don't give them
your files." She said, "Let me make some calls." And she actually found an attorney in the Washington area who
agreed to help me basically for free, and we cut a deal that it would with the federal government and the the
prosecutors in Portland, Maine, that I would not give them anything. No writings, no recordings, nothing. I
would just testify to that one quote in the book. So, they bring me back to Portland. Joubert is on trial for the
murder of Ricky Stetson. I'm the star witness. His attorney tries to paint me as a law enforcement officer, an agent
of the FBI, and my lawyer says, "He's a reporter doing his job. Joubert confessed. He killed Ricky Stetson."
And it was over in less than a day. And once they the judge found Joubert guilty, he sentenced
him to another life term in prison, and I remember we're leaving the courthouse,
and I look across the courtyard, and Joubert is in handcuffs. He sees me, I see him.
The sun is in my eyes, but I can still see him. They push his head down in the back of
the car, shut the door, and they they drive away. And I walk over to Joubert's attorney, and I said, "Listen, I didn't
want it to end like this. I had to to testify. I'd really like to talk to John again."
And he looked at me and said, "You can talk to John Joubert after the state of Nebraska executes him." And he slammed
the trunk of his car, and that was that. I never spoke to Joubert again, but that wasn't the last
time our paths would cross. When did they cross again? During the last interview, Joubert told me um and
he had told me previously that I I said, "How do you wake up every day? What What
do you have to look forward to?" And he said, "Getting out. They're going to overturn my case. I'm
going to walk free." He actually believed that. And then not shortly thereafter, in the same interview, he
says, "You know, I'm still having these fantasies." And I said, "What fantasies?" "About killing more
kids." And excuse my French, but I said, "John, that's effed up, okay? Something
is seriously wrong with you." And he said, "I You know, I'm drawing them out now." And I said, "Drawing them out?" He
said, "Yeah, they confiscated two of the drawings from my jail cell just a couple
of weeks ago." And I said, "Wait a second. You're drawing out your fantasies of killing
more kids?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "Listen, give me permission to get those drawings
from the prison. I will take them to the FBI. I will take them to a psychiatrist.
I'll get them analyzed and give you the report. Something is wrong with you. Maybe this will help you in some
fashion." So, he reaches across the table, and he grabs my notepad, and he writes a letter to the warden
instructing him to give me the copies of the drawings. So, I take that letter to
the to the warden, and based on inmate confidentiality, they refused to give me the drawings.
So, flash forward, it's the 30th anniversary of the case, and I'm just going through my notes. I'm looking
back, and I find my notes about the death row drawings. And I just wondered, do they still have
those drawings? Because it's always bothered me that I couldn't put those in my book, show people what
he told me. I called the prison. The general counsel calls me back and says, "Yes, we still have the drawings.
I have them in front of me." I have my notes in front of me, and I said, "Okay." He told me there were two
drawings. One of them, he's stabbing a boy. He said, "The boy is on his knees. It looks like they're in the woods.
He's stabbing him in the stomach." And I said, "Okay, there was a second drawing.
What does it look like?" And he said, "It looks like another boy floating in space." And I said, "Is he bound?" He
said, "Yes. Rope around his feet and arms, but there are no feet, and there are no hands."
And I said, "You've got to give those drawings to me. There's no telling what the FBI can tell us now about a killer
from 30 years ago." And they refused to give me the drawings. So, I called Lee Polikoff, who I had stayed in touch with
all these years. Lee is now the Sarpy County attorney, and I said, "Lee, what do I do? They have these drawings." He
said, "Sue the state. Force them to turn over the drawings." So, he helped me find a lawyer in
Lincoln. His name is Bob Krieger. Bob basically took me on for free, and we sued the state of Nebraska, and guess
what? We won. And we were about 3 days from the state having to turn the drawings over,
and there was a new attorney general in Nebraska. He filed an emergency appeal to the Nebraska
Supreme Court to keep them from releasing the So, I was about to get the drawings, and
then it was put on hold, and it was going to be months now before the Supreme Court hearing.
Then, that weekend, on a Saturday night, I'm at home, and my home phone rings, and I was at
home I wasn't out with friends and and doing anything, and I see the area code pop up on my my TV screen, and it's
Nebraska. So, I answer, and I said, "Hello." And the guy says, "Is this Mark Pettit?" And I said, "Yes." "The one
that's trying to get the coverage out The one that wrote the book about John Joubert?" And I said, "Yes."
"The one that's trying to get those drawings that they're fighting you about?" And I said, "Yes."
He said, "I have the drawings, and I'm going to give them to you." So, this is 30 years after the fact. He
says, "I was a guard on duty the morning we did the shake down on Joubert's cell.
We found the drawings. They were so disturbing, I took them and made copies of them. I've held them for all these
years. I'm going to give you the drawings." So, I go into detail about how I was
able to get the drawings texted to me, and it was exactly as Joubert had told me, only in
black and white. So, I was able to take those drawings to an FBI-trained criminal profiler. Now, 30 years later,
and the full report is in the book of what it told us about John Joubert then that we know now. Mhm. The big question
would be, was he drawing from fantasy or from memory? The criminal profiler said
that he was convinced that these were sexual fantasies. They were not about additional murders that he had
committed. They were about sexual fantasies that he was having about committing more crimes. And that's
what it always bothered me is Joubert telling me on one hand that he was going to get out and then someone like Pat
Thomas telling me if he ever gets out he'll kill again. So I asked the criminal profiler Keith Howard. I said,
"Keith, that is the one question. Do these drawings prove that John Joubert would have killed again?" And he
wrote me back, "There is no lingering doubt. If John Joubert had ever been released from prison, he would have
killed again." So boom. I had it. I put it into my book, the the fifth edition. Again, the story blows up and
luckily the state did not come after me. I was not arrested for putting the drawings out there. And that'll bring us
to why I've written the last version of the book, Nick. >> With the Ricky Stetson case
we talked about the other victims, at least Danny Joe Eberle, being bind or tied up. Was there any evidence
that that Joubert used a similar I mean, because we know a lot about the the Danny Joe Eberle case, we know a lot
about the Christopher Walden case as far as how they likely were abducted, what happened to them after word. But with
the Ricky Stetson case, how much of that I know we talked about the bite mark, but how much of that mirrored what we
saw with the other two victims? I think what you'll you'll view in the Ricky Stetson case that this was um
quick. It wasn't necessarily pre-planned. I don't think Joubert had thought it through far enough um to to
to find the rope to do those type things. I think this was just him being his fantasies reaching a
boiling point where he he acted out but he didn't plan it out. So I think he would be classified as an unorganized
killer at that moment. This was more of a spur of the moment crime of sexual passion uh that I would later learn uh
that he killed Ricky Stetson but not in an organized manner. >> And the biting seems to be more of a
signature, something that he he just seems to have to do at the with the victim. Well, the one of the
psychiatrist wrote in his report that Joubert was confused over sex and violence. They both meant the same thing
to him. So if you can imagine sexual aggression, he used the bite marks, I think the biting was a form of sexual
aggression toward the victims. And keep in mind, this is the early days of criminal behavior and profiling. They
really hadn't done a lot with dental imprints and matching dental records to crime scene victims. But this was one of
the the early cases where they were able to take Joubert's teeth prints and connect him to Danny Joe's body and
to Ricky Stetson's body. You much you know, after the fact with the the crime scene photos and such that they believed
that they were able to match Joubert's teeth to both victims' bite marks. Well, and with
Joubert, no doubt he's a sexual sadist. With him, and this is what is necessary for the drawings I think for him. What
gives him a sexual thrill is the terror in his victim's voice. It's the the the look of fear in his
victim's eyes and the look of terror on his victim's face when he's either inflicting pain or holding them against
their will and them slowly thinking maybe he's not going to let me go and and maybe this is it for me. That has to
be some part of the psychology for our for our monster here. >> That's exactly it. Keith Howard pointed
out some facts to me that and I'll tell you more how these came into more clear focus
in this new edition of A Need to Kill. He pointed out that the in the the photo of of the drawing where
Joubert is in this wooded area and he has the victim on his knees, the young the victim is bound with rope
and the killer has his hand on his shoulder. And I said, "Keith, what's that about?" And he said, "That's him
expressing control over the victim but in a a gentle control." And he said, "Notice the boy's mouth is
gagged or the victim's mouth is gagged in the drawing but there's no blindfold on his eyes." And he said, "That is for
a reason. This is a sexual sadist who wants this victim to experience fear to see him up until the moment that he
takes his life. He said, "That's what drives a sexual sadist. He wants that victim not to be able to scream where he
can be caught but he wants that victim to watch what is about to happen to him." And when I realized these details,
it just it made things even more horrific in my mind to learn those kinds of details. And at no time did he even
try to sell you on the idea that oh, I was comforting to the victims or I tried to tell them cuz a lot of times we've
seen these serial types where they will use lies and a ruse to try to calm and control the victim saying, you know, I'm
all I'm going to do is rob you or I don't worry if you if you do as I say, I'm going to let you go.
Do do we have any of that here as far as what the killer told you? Uh no. And that that was something early
on in the Danny Joe Eberle investigation. Police thought maybe he had been held for a couple of days by
the killer or his body he had maybe been uh killed and then disposed of but that's not what
happened. Joubert told me that he kidnapped the boy, he killed the boy and he left his body you know, within the
same time frame. He didn't hold the boy, he didn't you know, threaten him other than
when he took him into that wooded area or the the grassy area and stabbed him. But
I put the details in the book, Nick. This was a violent attack. With Danny Joe Eberle, you know, when he made him
strip to his underwear, tied him back up and then just started plunging the knife
into his back and then flipped him over on his back and just plunged the knife into his chest
and then starts biting the boy. This was just a fit of rage. But as we now know,
Joubert was a pedophile and I I really didn't understand this and I think you've spoken about this in previous
podcast, Nick, of what a pedophile is. And what Keith Howard told me is not all molesters are pedophiles. And so a
pedophile like Joubert is going to be attracted sexually to prepubescent boys. And that's what what these young kids
were, right? And that's what the drawings were. Um but in the second drawing, what got me were no hands and
no feet. And I asked Keith about that and he said, "Mark, that's dissociation." Joubert didn't see these these victims
as human. He was more obsessed with the detail. Look at the rope." And if you look at the rope in the drawings,
it's frayed. It's exactly the kind of rope he used on Danny Joe Eberle. Right? So um
bringing us closer to today. Over the past year, I've become very familiar with AI and using tools, you know, to
edit photos and so forth. And about 4 months ago, I said to myself, "I wonder if AI could help me
restore these death row drawings to the way that the killer originally made them." So I go back into my notes and I
I find parchment paper, uh pastel pencils. And so um I I I found two programs uh that help
restore images and I put into the prompts parchment paper, pastel pencils. These are the drawings from a serial
killer who told me the following about the drawings. And within 30 seconds, it had restored the drawings to exactly the
way Joubert told me he had intended them. So on parchment paper, pastel pencils, in color,
in the woods, it just all came to life. And that's when I knew I have to tell the rest of the story. I have to put
these drawings out in color. Now I can put all the images in color into this book. I want people
to see Danny Joe Eberle's smile, his bright blonde hair, the blue stripes on his shirt. Um I wanted people to
experience him in life, not just in death. But now that you're able to see these drawings in color and you see the
detail down to the belt that the killer is wearing. And again, there's been just
some ironic things. I'm I'm on the college tour last week and the criminal um justice professor who was on duty with
Joubert on death row says, "That's his prison uniform in that drawing. That's the clothes we give them to wear
uh on death row. That's the belt we give them. It's a special belt that is woven
where they can't use it to harm themselves. So, just bringing those drawings to life now with the help of AI
that has restored them to the way Joubert had drawn them to me is just fantastic.
And I I wanted people to see that and now you can see details that have never before been seen in this case. With the
death row drawings that you were able to secure and then now bring them back into
breathe new life into them so we can examine them as they they were by the the man who created them. You had said
to him, "Hey, I think there's something very wrong with you." Understatement of the year maybe.
There's something very wrong with you but but you're citing that look, you're locked up for this. You're on death row
for this and you're still fantasizing about this sick [ __ ] It did he or do you think
Mark that he wanted that he not only recognized that there was something wrong with him but that he had a desire
to learn what it was that was wrong with him? I do and he told me something during one of the interviews. I walk in
and he said, "Did you see People magazine this week?" And I said, "No, I don't think I caught it yet." He said,
"Charlie Sheen is on the cover." And he says in the article that he would rather
be in a in a killing scene than a lovemaking scene. I'm in prison for that. So, he's thinking,
"What is it in my mind?" But there he sees somebody like Charlie Sheen who's not quite right either. So, I do think
that Joubert was struggling with what had caused all this because as an investigative reporter, you know, I want
to be able to find the smoking gun. Oh, he was molested as a child. Oh, this, oh, that. And it wasn't that.
He came from a broken family, yes, but his mother didn't let him watch violent things on TV so that's not where he got
it. She didn't let him play video games. That's not where he got it, right? He, as he told me, was just born with a
need to kill. And I think it bothered him. I think he wanted to better understand it and that's why he wanted
them to give me those drawings 40 years ago which they should have done. They made me fight, spend my own money, and
thank God for the confidential source who risked his freedom to to give me the drawings because he knew that too. He
knew that maybe there were clues in these drawings that could help police keep this from happening again.
Now, I've seen bloggers, I've seen it on the internet, and I've heard it on other
podcasts and rightfully so. I mean, because between the murder of Ricky Stetson that takes place in Portland,
Maine and then fast forward to the Danny Joe Eberly murder that takes place in Bellevue, Nebraska.
Between these two victims, we have Johnny Gosch who goes missing not just in time frame but also I mean,
it's between if one were to drive from Portland, Maine, you would go through Des Moines, Iowa to get to
Omaha, Nebraska. And while this is something that it seems relatively new or a thought or a theory that has
sprouted up from the internet and podcast, it you open up your 1990 book A Need to Kill talking
in the same chapter about Johnny Gosch and Danny Joe Eberly. I thought there was a connection and
Joubert said, "No, he never met Johnny Gosch. He didn't know Johnny Gosch. He had nothing to do with it." So, I have
to believe that because he didn't lie to me about Ricky Stetson, you know? So, I
think I would have gotten it out of him if if he had killed Johnny Gosch. I think that was somebody else and you
know, I wish we could figure out who did it. I wish we could figure out where Johnny's body is
so his his, you know, remaining family members could have some peace as well. And it's not a new idea as far as law
enforcement's concerned because some of the FBI agents that worked the Johnny Gosch case were
hands-on and working the Danny Joe Eberly case. And I I stayed in contact with a lot of those guys over the years
and it weighed on them. I don't think we quite understand the pressure that these
law enforcement people are under when something like this is happening. You know, they know how fearful the
community is but they have families too and they can't sleep either, you know? So, the pressure and I'm sure it
shortened the lifespans of some of these guys who have to think and look in the face of evil.
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, I have to thank you for sticking with it six times now. A Need to Kill has been
released and it keeps getting more thorough and more evolved as we go. And from my understanding,
Mark, there will be an audio book this time, right? For the first time we have an audio book.
>> There is an audio book that will be coming out very soon and I do the upfront narration
of the book. I wanted people to hear from me why I've stayed on this case for 40 years. Why it would not let me go.
Why I could not turn away. And something happened last week that really brought this to a closure for me.
I was on an interview with Nebraska Public Radio. A guy named Bill Kelly who Bill was an
investigative reporter when I was an investigator. >> We want to thank Mark Pettit for joining
me in the garage. Please go get and read his book A Need to Kill available in all
forms including audio. Please join us back here next time for our sixth and final chapter of the series. Until
then, be good, be kind, and don't let them win. outside the prison that night working with KMTV covering the execution
and he asked me to read the final words of John Joubert. And basically what he said is that I hope that my death bring
some sort sense of peace to the families of Danny Joe Eberly, Christopher Walden
and Richard Stetson. So, in the final minutes before he was executed, Joubert finally confessed in public to the
murder of Ricky Stetson and that really touched me and um I I was overcome with emotion because I
said, "I tried to tell the world, you know, in 1991 this was he killed Ricky Stetson." So, now it's all there. You'll
hear from me very soon and Christopher Lane narrates the the majority of the audio book because it's not easy
doing an audio book. So, Christopher does the best part but I I do the intro and the close and I can finally say case
closed. Mark Pettit, thank you for your time today and thank you for joining us here in the garage and congratulations
on the continued success of your book A Need [music] to Kill. Thank you, Nick. >> [music]
[music] >> We want to thank Mark Pettit for joining me in the garage. Please go get and read
his book A Need to Kill available in all forms including audio. Please join us back here next time for our sixth and
final chapter of this series. Until then, [music] be good, be kind and don't let them.
>> [music] [music]

Missing Paperboys /// Chapter 5 /// A Need to Kill

Chapter 5 - A Need to Kill

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

In the eighties in middle America paperboys were disappearing. It started in Iowa and then moved to Nebraska. Kids were plucked off of the street and some have vanished forever. The first boy gone was Johnny Gosch. The second was Danny Joe Eberle. The third boy didn’t have a paper route at all. Christopher Walden was abducted near his home while walking to school, on December 2, 1983. John Joubert confessed to and later was convicted of murdering Danny Joe Eberle and Christopher Walden. Even with a confession Joubert was a man with many secrets. Some he told to investigative reporter Mark Pettit. Mark Pettit is the author of “A Need to Kill,” and he was kind enough to join us in the Garage for a discussion about abduction, murder, and what goes on in the mind of a serial killer.

A NEED TO KILL: The life and crimes of John Joubert, Nebraska’s most notorious serial child killer by Mark Pettit is available on Amazon.

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Brief Summary

Mark Pettit discusses John Joubert's serial killings and his own investigative journey in <i>A Need to Kill</i>.

Key points

John Joubert's Final Apology. Before his execution, Joubert expresses remorse for his actions, leaving a haunting message.
A Community in Fear. Prosecutor Mike Wellman describes the overwhelming fear in Omaha during the abductions.
The Perv Squad. Police had a list of sexual predators but were misled by false leads.
Pat Thomas's Gut Feeling. Sheriff Pat Thomas had a strong intuition that the wrong suspect was being pursued.
Barbara Weaver's Close Call. Preschool teacher Barbara Weaver narrowly escapes an attack by the killer.
The Rental Car Breakthrough. Barbara Weaver provides crucial evidence that leads police to the killer.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I just want to say that again, I am sorry for what I have done.

Final apology from John Joubert before execution.

5:02WatchApr 21, 2026

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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