Madeleine McCann /// Part 2 /// 121 | Forensic Files

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good old American beers and let's talk some true [Music] crime all right Captain we have to Dive
Right In because we are about waste deep in this whole meline mccan disappearance
and investig a we already covered a lot of stuff yesterday and still a ton more to get to today we want to start looking
at items and does it Point towards guilt or innocence and of who specifically the
mccan family so what we'll do is we'll start the day that she went missing which or the night she went missing May
3rd correct so we have the timeline we discussed the timeline uh yesterday and but there's some things to look at
inside of this timeline first of first of all the the number of times that the the persons involved being questioned
seemed a little light to me Captain it seemed like you know that that they didn't sit down with these key players
to to produce this timeline what it was wasn't until 7 Days Later yeah so on May
3rd they kind of got a rough idea of what happened but I don't know if they actually jotted down these notes or not
they're they also talked to some of the individuals that worked at the hotel but
again they were more focused on the search which you know makes sense at the time uh again I think investigators
should have looked at this as the worst case Poss you know worst case scenario and also when you're showing up to a
scene and the mother is saying hey the window was open somebody took my daughter make that a crime scene uh they
didn't do that so there's some inconsistencies here now they didn't get the tapis 9's statements till about 7
days later so that's a law and then investigation but some of the stuff with the tapis 9's stories don't line up with
each other correct and some of that could be chocked up to well it was 7 days later and you just went through
this worldwi uh 48 Hours of non-stop searching for this little girl one big problem that we have with the timeline
itself is that it doesn't actually line up with what is given information given to them by uh employees and staff at the
resort itself right there seems to be a discrepancy that could go what about 30 minutes um what do you think about that
just jumping off the page there before we get into the timeline itself the discrepancy between the resort staff and
the the the tapa KN again I believe that yeah you look for the girl you do a search but as you're looking for the
girl you're possibly looking for somebody that took the girl MH so I I get that but they should have locked
down that scene for sure but as far as like the stories lining up I don't know if it points to a guilty or innocent for
as far as the mccains go so to me it's like just a mute point was bad investigation I can't go back and fix it
we can and the these individuals were only questioned one time uh this case has gone on for 10 years they could have
been questioned more often to see if maybe they remembered something differently so as far as the story is
not lining up with the resort or with themselves I don't think it points to innocence nor guilt the thing here is
you know you know I don't want to sound like we're laying it on the investigators too too heavy because you
know the the problem is when you walk into a situation like this you can't go okay time out and freeze time and take a
look at everything and and and cover all your bases no everything is still happening around you if in fact you
could do is lock down that scene yeah correct and if in fact she's been abducted
well she could be potentially getting further and further away from you and that scene just within minutes and hours
of of your presence correct okay so the other issue we have here is and I'm going to point to something that we
talked about last week when we covered the fifth nail one thing that I was really impressed with was the way that
they handled that investigation and the thing that impressed me the most was we had several investigators coming out and
saying you know what we're looking into something that there's no profile for we've never showed up to a home before
and seen a family taken out and then we have abducted people from that same scene there's we've never seen this
before we don't know how to react to this right and that's what you're doing in the early stages of an investigation
you're ultimately reacting to the scene that you are finding and what you're are
finding within that scene so I think one thing that they did really well in the in the fifth nail investigation was they
broke off into two teams and they said okay one team you're going to focus on the abduction finding the the children
the other team you're going to focus on the crime scene and in this this murder situation that we found here right I
know that's tough to do in a lot of situations but you know if you if you can walk into a scene and you can say
we're not really sure what we're looking at here we don't know if this is an abduction or if something happened on
site if you could break off into those two groups and focus and say you know what mom and dad and all of your friends
we're going to have to sit you down and we're going to have to talk through this
while we don't worry don't worry we are not stopping you from finding your children we are we are covering our
bases we're getting much needed very important information because one we want to find out if we can narrow down
what time the girl was taken that's very important so Mom and Dad we asking you to sit down your friends to sit down we
need to discuss this at length meanwhile there will be a lot of there were hundreds of people that night there will
be people out there looking for meline while we cover this process and a lot of the reports were stating one of the
things that makes them look guilty is that they were just kind of around Apartment 5 a and they weren't actually
looking themselves but again they called in authorities right they didn't it wasn't
like that the resort had to call on authorities they asked for the the authorities to be there correct and so
does that point to them being guilty or innocent neither because they might have
just been doing what the authorities told them to do I think it points to their innocence and the fact that they
did call for authorities and then when those authorities showed up and things didn't seem to like make sense cuz the
mother stated right away look this girl was abducted and when they started saying well it's possible that she ran
off she's going look there's an open window there's evidence that points to that she was abducted another key piece
of evidence in this whole thing at in the early stage of the investigation is that Kate McCain she uh she would state
that she wanted the FBI involved M she wanted higher authorities because this town wasn't known to have a big law
enforcement presence and so she wanted higher ups to come in and help now if you're guilty why would you want that
the other thing here Captain this might be something that the investigators were
very inexperienced at I don't have the numbers in front of me but I read one report stating that uh Portugal has a
significantly lower child abduction rate than a lot of other countries out there
so might be something that is foreign to them um so let's take a look at the Timeline real quick is there anything
that that jumps off of the page immediately the first the first thing that I look at here is we have the kids
quote unquote daycare center where you can take the kids to be dropped off they can be they can be watched by their's
nannies at the resort right um now so our first question about the mcan's behavior
would be well if you're going out to dinner why not take your kids to to this Center to to be watched by nannies by
professional people and they can be picked up after I think most people that look into this case all pretty much
agreed that what they did was uh you know some form of neglect and some some form of bad parenting yes uh I can kind
of understand it and we differ from this because I've seen video footage where the mccains are sitting at the bar at
the tapis and they they take a video footage and they zoom in and they can see their their sliding glass door from
where they're sitting so would that make you feel a little bit more comfortable yeah but there's Street access to that
sliding glass door that you're leaving unlocked and possibly the front door is possibly unlocked as well so uh you know
it's it's definitely a form of neglect well and what the captain means by he and I differ on something it's about we
we disagree on whether the MCCS could see the back patio to their apartment or not now I want to throw this out there
in the C this is actually I'm going to defend the captain not myself even though we disagree I watched some video
footage that was presented as well as some photographs taken from an area of that toa's restaurant right now I was
told by the person conducting the video as well as the person that released these photographs that he was or they
were positioned about where the MC's were from his position you could not see their patio you could see the top of
their apartment but this is why this is how I'm defending the captain once I saw
the photograph and a video thing I didn't look any further so there could be other angles out there there could be
other evidence to uh to go against what I'm saying here but what I found the limited amount the small sample size
that I saw you couldn't see that area the regarding the daycare itself Captain you know you mentioned it was about 15
bucks an hour maybe they were being cheap my kind of kind of the way I lean here and I agree with you I I 100% that
there's negligence on the on the part of the MC right the thing here is I I question did did that daycare did it
close at like 900 p.m. and this would be after they would they you know not a desirable time to return home uh the
other thought here is a lot of people a lot of parents are big about keeping very small kids on a certain schedule
and they don't like to they don't like to stray from that schedule too much I wonder if it's because it's past their
bedtime they thought they could just simply put the kids to bed and come in and check on them from time to time um
right a lot of that is neither here nor there because you know we can't go back and change that but the fact of the
matter is as far as Behavior goes there's nobody in the resorts that ever said that Jerry or Kate McCain were
acting strange in any way nor did they say any of the tapis 9 were any of them were acting
strange now we have the we also have the situation of the last photograph taken of meline um this being where the
parents say that the picture was taken at almost 2:30 p.m. uh the clock on the camera reads about 1:30 p.m. and the can
simply later state that the clock is off on the camera by 1 hour do you do you find any suspicious Behavior here or
anything that points towards uh this would you know showing some of gu I think it's one of those points that
people bring up in this case like that it like it's a big deal uh cuz we were talking about this earlier it's kind of
like the Brandon Lawson case you feel like if you can solve one line that maybe you can solve the whole case right
and I think any big case like this I mean John B R Casey Anthony there becomes these minute details and if you
can solve that then you can solve the whole thing so I think people that bring up this last picture um look there's you
know because they were trying to figure out the last time that that she's seen alive and so the and the reason why
they're doing that is because they're trying to say well if we make this window bigger right right and she
actually has a picture taken at 1:30 and not 2:30 that gives them less of a time
for there to be an accident or for them to accidentally o overdose her and then hide her body right there's a couple
problems with that we have one of the tapis N that claims that he saw her about 6:30 but there's also on record I
think like 5 530 that people from the resort saw her so again this picture doesn't matter because we already have
people seeing her afterwards and that leads us to our next thing here we have David P
who just after 6:30 he stops off at the tennis court he talks to Jerry mccan for
a second and according to what report you hear either Jerry asked David to go check on Kate and the children at their
apartment in 5A or David ask him oh where's Kate and the kids and then decides to go up there um it doesn't
matter who ask who what in my opinion uh but like the captain said we have David
Payne saying that he sees meline during this time one thing that has fallen into
question the lead investigator uh on this early in the investigation who has I should point out has been removed as
far as being the lead investigator in this um he points out a major inconsistency here he states that he has
some reports from the topest N stating that David Payne was at the mccan apartment for close to 30 minutes where
you have Kate mccan stating he was there for more like 30 seconds or 1 minute he's there for a very brief time period
again a lot of these details that they're asking him about come 7 days later after 48 48 Hours of crazily crazy
is that even a word crazily is that that's a word that's I just made I'm going to stick with that crazily looking
for this three-year-old child that's on the vocab test in the computer yeah imputer imputer land um sorry about that
but the thing here is it's look it it's Fourth of July we're a little loose sorry I think to me to me this does
matter because after this guy leaves after David Payne leaves well we only have the M after that saying that mine's
okay and that she's at the apartment so to me this 30 seconds to 30 minutes does
matter uh the problem I have here is why can't you just why can't you just tell me that you know there should be
there should be a way to figure this out you if you have multiple people saying one story is true compared to the other
then you would likely believe that that story a is is more believable because you have other accounts of that same
well okay here's why it doesn't matter that much one you should question them again but they didn't uh they should
have question them multiple times they should have question them that night they should question the next day they
should have they should have seven days of stories MH and and then look some of that stuff is going to change but all
that changes the time window is by 30 minutes so it either goes from four you know maybe 4 hours to 3 hours I know I
just said 30 minutes but it's it it doesn't change it that much I mean we're talking about maybe he sees them at 6:30
maybe he stays till 7:00 so then the police are called about 10:00 right so you got a three-hour window that
something happened and then you're going to have to and now you're going to have
to hide this body now mind you that at 6:30 when he's talking with um Jerry McCain he has an hourlong tennis lesson
so he's not even getting back to the room for another hour right so he his tennis lesson would have started at 6
and it would have finished at 7 so he would have he would have been returning depending on Whose story you believe uh
he would be returning right around the time that David Payne would be leaving if in fact David Payne was there for
approximately 30 minutes right and does this matter maybe it matters because it changes as far as the timeline goes but
it doesn't Point either innocence or guilt towards the mccains so we have a situation here Captain where we have
Jerry and Kate mccan they're arriving at the toas restaurant approximately 8:35 um it says that they are the first
couple of the group to arrive and now we know that all of these group members are
leaving children behind in their rooms and checking on them periodically now I've heard you know usually when I when
I've talked about this case with with friends and and whoever in the past you know because this case has been so
popular it's Nots it's not the first time that it's been you know brought up as far as over drinks right uh but the
question I first hear people say not asking me indirectly just asking everybody is who goes out to dinner and
leaves their kids at home well in this situation all of them did every every parent in the group did the only person
there without children was was a grandmother well and mind you that you know if you if you have a sick feeling
about this to make you feel a little more sick they did this this is the sixth day of doing this right the sixth
night yeah there's there's conflicting stories of that but this was not five nights yeah this was definitely not the
first time at at the very least it was the fourth or fifth time that they had done it on the trip it sounds like it's
very possible they did this every night that it was a very routine trip that they you know they did a dropped the
kids off at the daycare during the day went out did some things spent time with the family dur you know afterwards and
then it's kids go to bed parents go down to the topest bar in restaurant to eat and drink right now but just hear me out
on this though I mean think about somebody that had you know decent house right you've been to a buddies they got
a decent house they got a pool and I was just hanging out with my buddy the other
the other week uh so he has a nice house sliding glass doors opens up to the pool
on the other side of the pool is a little like bar area like I don't know what you want to call it's basically
like a little Shack that he he made right now if it was at somebody's home same distance you know 50 m nobody would
bat an ey you know they'd say oh yeah they're out by their pool bar drinking and the the back door wasn't locked
because they could see it and the front door we're assuming is locked and then the kid goes missing I I'm batting an I
just because of the children's age I think it's it's a little young it's a little early for that but look I'm not
going to tell anybody how to raise their kids I'm just saying I wouldn't have done well in I believe one of the groups
they actually had um now not the mccains but one of the other sets of parents had
actually a baby monitor so look I I think it's definitely you know form of neglect and if the mccains could
go back and do it all over again you think they would do that heck no here's where we have our first problem in my
opinion you know we those are all been items that have been discussed and and really been debated uh to to to the end
right um so far I don't see anything pointing in the the direction of guilt or not guilty um here's where we have
our first problem in my opinion 905 uh Jerry mccan returns to the apartment I said during our timeline yesterday that
he returned to the apartment through the unlocked patio door to check on the children now one the big problem here is
that this story has changed that on one occasion on at least one occasion Jerry reported to the authorities that he in
fact went through the front door uh which which he States was locked at the time went through the front locked door
to check on the kids and on another occasion says that he went through the unlocked back patio door well let me
explain this like I said they they did this probably five to let's just say five to six nights right mhm so the
first couple nights what they did was people would take turns checking on each other's kids but they all locked their
do doors and so they had to have the keys to get into the doors right so when you're asking somebody 7 Days Later he's
not remembering one night he's remembering multiple nights so and again I think the mccains even said that the
first few nights that they're there they actually didn't go through the SL sliding glass door uh they were actually
going through the front door correct so again inconsistencies of stories but uh and the the police always point out that
you know the the McCain say that they're going through the sliding glass door but
all the other parents are saying that they're going around to the front of the building well the ones that were going
around to the front of building were the ones that were on the second floor because that's how you got to the second
floor so there's inconsistencies there right cuz you can't enter through your patio that's on the second floor it's a
balcony right so is is it inconsistent is he being a nefarious I don't think so I think he's just misremembering but
when it comes down to it what it comes down to is what he says when he opens up the door you know the door was open up a
little bit he looks in he sees the twins but he can't necessarily see meline well
that's only possible if you're coming through the back of the room and not through the front door because if you
open up that front door you would have saw her first well the CU she would be the first
person in sight the eyesight line the thing here is Captain uh we have a we have an issue because one
would ask well why would you why would you stray from going through the front door well and and then change to the
back door the the thing here is it's a longer route you know and it they said that they were worried about noise about
waking the children that could be it but it's also a longer route if you look at
the route taken to enter the patio compared to the front door you almost feel like with the front door you almost
feel like you're walking out of the resort leaving the resort you're beond the wall you're now traveling along the
street to get up to that front door where if you are going through the pad you pretty much feel like you're staying
within the walls of the resort and it's almost about half the trip when you break down the time uh to get from you
know if comparing the two the patio is about half the trip well right and if you go through the if you go through the
back door uh backs sliding glass door you just have to peek into to the room if you go in the front door you have to
actually go through that room so you can take a leak or whatever Jerry says that
when he's in there he sees the the door is now open quite a bit more than what he thought that they had left it when
they went to dinner mhm the other thing here too is he would later report you know that he he believed that he felt
some kind of pres looking back he says he felt some kind of presence in in the apartment I I believe he did yeah um the
thing here is well what about the window and I know we I know we kind of come to
that at the end of their timeline but this is something we should keep an eye on and monitor as we go through the
timeline right because right now Jerry's not reporting the window being open right right now Jerry's not reporting
that the door to the bedroom blows shut because he created some kind of draft depending on which way he entered the
apartment okay well the window to the wall um let's get into the window right after this quick beer
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projects done well visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie [Music] that all right welcome back to the
captain and the colonel show Cheers mates all right let's not get to the window yet cuz there's something we got
to get to the window first right so let's say let's go with this at 9:30 this is when Kate is supposed to go back
up to the room and check on the kids instead we have Matt Oldfield and R Russell O'Brien they are leaving the
table to go check on children as well so Matt then offers that he will check on Kate's kids while he's away from the
table which is not going to be very hard because he can be told that the patio doors are unlocked and you can just go
in that way Matt and check on the kids right right we have some problems with Matthew oldfield's statements and one of
them being that he doesn't physically see meline mccan he states that he kind of just you know kind of peaked into the
door he he thought the door was open more than than what he was told it should be you know but that at the time
didn't matter anything to him he didn't know that the MCCS left the door closed he didn't know that Jerry found the door
open and then closed it more so he he notes that the door is open he just kind of peaks in he sees the twins sees the
twins he also just kind of listens with the old ear don't hear anything nothing nothing seems wrong here everything's
good I got to run and check on some other kids and then I'm back at the restaurant the other thing though that
he points out here the thing that I think that is very important is he also even regardless whether the door is open
slightly ajar all the way open whatever he does doesn't he at no time gives any evidence to point that the window is
open at this time either right so no evidence from Jerry or Matt that the window is open well and there's no
evidence of the window being open because there was multiple times that different people had to walk around to
the front of the building mhm so by them walking around to the front of the building maybe they looked over but they
would have noticed if you know cuz there's this metal like little tiny like what we talked about like a almost like
a garage door on over over the window M that has to be open I think people would
have noticed that if they walked by the front of the building right so the thing
here though now we have 10:00 and Kate goes to check on the room and she states definitively she's got that she's got
that little piece in there about the door slamming shut or the door blowing shut and I'm assuming that it's because
the window is open and she's created some kind of draft by opening up uh the p doors or or whatever creating a draft
causing the door to shut we've all experienced that before well right and and look to be fair to these parents I
mean look anytime that you'd have to check on kids you know you like you know my my stepson used to sleep upstairs by
my room if I would go to the bathroom upstairs maybe I would like you know peek in maybe I want to see both of them
but I kind of listen in you know so that's not uncommon you know and so I I I assume this is why it's a big deal
about the door moving is cuz I think when Kate went in I think a lot of these trips that the the parents were making
to check on their their kids MH were it was also I got to use the restroom you know we're drinking I got to take a pee
right right and so I think sometimes you know it's just like uh when Jerry says well I went in but I I don't really know
if I or when they say when they sorry I'm a little disc Barby now I can't even speak okay I'm
just going to keep going screw it um so I think some of them just went in to take a pee and then then they're they're
going to listen right and I think this time this is why it startled her is cuz I think she wasn't really going to check
in on them think she was just going to take a leak right right right or or Give a listen or walk by the door right and
that would that would suffice you know but then all of a sudden the bedroom door shuts mhm and then she's like oh
what's up with that so what's up with that so she opens up the door and notices the windows open right so H
let's let's let's not give our opinion yet on this situation right because I want to move on to the next thing she
then flees she then fle after looking around the apartment looking for meline she then leaves the apartment running
back to the restaurant to say that and there's some different accounts of what she said but the one that is is repeated
every single time is that she says that they have taken her or you know she's basically stating that they've that
she's been abducted mine's been abducted so now that to me I've never liked that statement I always thought
that that was a strange thing for her to say and you and I've had this conversation before and you point out a
very good thing there where you say well it's only strange Nick to say that until
you're the parent and you've seen the window wide open in the same room where your daughter was once sleeping mhm so I
get that I I'm on your side with that I have a little issue of her running to the restaurant I don't know that that
was my that would be my first go-to um but again I've never been in this situation I don't know how I would
react one thing that I don't like as well is is it seems that she left the the smaller children alone in the
apartment right to go to the restaurant to report what she believes she she found right again though we're talking
about a pretty small distance you know mhm uh one could argue that she could have actually stayed on you know the
balcony and just yelled yeah she could have shouted it from the patio and and you would think you you could hear it
from there um and also they they had cell phones so they could have called or text I think that would have been if I
could put myself in that situation if I had to be in that situation now I have the benefit of sitting here and thinking
about it however I think that would be the go-to for me to run out on that patio and just shout it from the
Mountaintop and hope that hope that rest you know Resort staff or your friends and my friends and family hear me um and
and all come running yeah or I mean again the thing that I haven't thought much about till
you you've brought it up is that she did leave her twins that's the thing which are way younger yeah remember when we
covered the the Columbus case where where the man said he was in the woods with his wife and small child and he
went ahead of the group and he discovered a man beating a woman to death and he he decided to run out of
the forest and run to a local business and call the police right to me that went unsolved for many many years and I
always thought found it to be very strange that he would leave his seemingly def defenseless wife and small
child behind where this Maniac is right and then run out and and call for help where yes maybe the window open points
to her that that that the person has fled she did check the apartment and didn't see anybody in the apartment I
but I think at that point they weren't airing on the side of caution before when they left the kids alone I would
think by this point though you are snatching up those two small children and you're taking them with you to call
for help right possibly or just I'm going to run out there and maybe she didn't make it all the way to the maybe
she only made it 20 M you know and then they came running also this would this would actually make sense on why the the
window was actually shut because you're looking around and you can't find your daughter and now
you're putting two and two together and you're going wait a second I think somebody came through this I think
somebody came through this goddamn window right so then you slam the window shut and then you could take off running
hey they they've taken her you know I need help so that would explain why you know when the detectives show up and and
other people say well the window wasn't open right um now let's just go over the
evidence on the window they did take fingerprints the only fingerprints that they found on the window or anywhere by
the window was from Kate right again would make sense cuz she was in that room she was in that uh Apartment 5A for
you know seven or 6 days at that point uh I don't think they even took um forensic stuff or finger prints for a
long time afterwards mhm so which is odd um another you know fail by the investigation well the thing here is
Captain let's discuss this window because it's been said that the window could not be it's been said that the
mcc's stated that the window was closed and the shutters were closed and then you have some people stating that you
could not open the shutter from the outside and I I'll describe the shutter it's metal slats it like the captain
said it looks like a small garage door that would could drop down and cover the entire window itself um it's controlled
by a by what people say a strap or a cord inside it's like a pulley system pulley system that would that would open
up this tiny little garage door and then it drops closed yeah you want to think of this as like a like a Chicago
storefront or New York storefront where they have the metal that slides down in front of the storefront so every morning
they have to lift it up you know and then you see the storefront then you pull back down when you leave for the
night here's a look 10 years of talking about this case 10 years of people looking into this case all they had to
do was test it they tested it they had a guy in his 50s maybe 60s detective all you have to do is go up put a little bit
of pressure on it and it lifts up a little bit and that allows you enough to open up the window and then you put your
hand through and pull on the pulley and it goes up look yeah but I've seen I've seen it on
video so but for this to work a couple things have to happen when I first looked at that window and looked at the
shutter I was very impressed because I'm like okay this is not just a shutter to
keep the lights out this is a shutter security a security shutter M it's a security issue so the thing here is when
I first looked at it I thought you know what that to me appears to be a shutter that you could I believe you could open
it from the outside just by appearance not even having seen that test conducted right my next thought was that if I were
to force that shutter open that I would cause significant damage to it or a good
deal of noise um that test that you showed me it it appears that they didn't have to create damage to the shutter and
it didn't seem to create much noise at all no more than it would if it was normally going up or normally going
closed the the issue here though is to get your hand hand inside the window then the window needs to be unlocked
correct that the latch lock would have to be unlocked for one to get their hand in to pull the thing the the remainder
of the way up yeah but I think this goes out to the investigation they didn't test this stuff early enough they didn't
ask the right questions about this window enough I mean I don't know if the McCain's had this window open up earlier
or not right and that's the thing that's the thing they were were asked from the
get-go know what was this window closed and was it locked and the McAn said you know what we can't state for sure we can
say that it was closed but we can't say definitely that it was locked and second
of all you know when they interviewed the staff the resort staff the cleaning crew said you know it's not uncommon for
us to come into an apartment and open up the windows while we're cleaning and then close them before we leave
therefore the M could have never even operated the window and it was left unlocked by by somebody that stayed
there previously or the the resort staff I think I swallowed a bug um yeah and we know that this security
system didn't work too well anyways because these these little uh garage doors if you will are not on the Windows
anymore they actually Place bars on the Windows yeah and I'll tell you what that's the selling key to me that's what
sold it for me Captain I you showed me that test and I thought I I might be wrong about this but what sold it for me
with having a background in Property Management I know that that's EXT it's so much of a budget business you know
you work within the budget as far as improvements go of your property right and therefore if you're doing a good job
you never pay for any improvements that are not needed so by The Resort placing bars over this window that tells me that
the people that own the property that run the property and operate it they believe that you can open up those
shutters and those windows from the outside and I just think with all like I said all the evidence and the little
tiny details of her stating that the door shut which you know you'd think that her coming in the back door would
create some kind of vacuum or something or some kind of current to to make the door shut so with those little details
to me that points to them being innocent and that this was abduction yeah I'm with you the the the things regarding
the window points to stranger abduction to me um I but I'm going to back that up
by saying that Kate's behavior during that period points to uh to their to them being guilty to to Str I I find her
I find her behavior to be strange so at by this point up until 10:00 kid was just abducted I understand that but but
up until 10:00 I have nothing pointing me in the direction of guilty or not guilty now we're sitting here at 10:00
10 103 and I'm I I've got one strike for guilty and one for not guilty it seems like with all these big cases you know
in the True Crime world there's always like one little thing about each case you know like you take West Memphis 3
for example I I have a hard time getting around the fact that there's an eyewitness that says Damian Eckles and
his girlfriend were coming out of the woods that night hard time getting around that um doesn't mean that I I
think he's guilty but I have a hard time getting around that now with this case we got these these cadaver dogs we got
these blood sniffing dogs I have a hard time getting around some of this yeah these are like specialty dogs and and I
say that because they they have their own unique specialty that they do so we have two we have two dogs right we we
have uh Eddie he's the kadab dog he's the one that can locate human remains and it's and it's just human remains
it's not you know animal carcasses or anything like that then we have Kila she's the blood dog and the way that
I've heard it described and read it in reports is that she can detect this smallest amount of blood in different
locations now how do they these these two dogs not only do they have their their Specialties that they're good at
right but they also have an extremely good track record and I think it's something like over 200 cases where
these dogs have been right well how do they prove that the dog is right well the dog
whether it be the Cav dog or the blood dog hits and alerts the Handler that there's aav or blood there later even if
they can't they can't see the blood they can test for it and they can find traces
of blood there thus backing up that these dogs have a good track record right but that's also like saying uh you
know LeBron James is the best because he's won uh 200 basketball games well how many did he lose you know what I
mean right nobody's perfect nobody but nobody is even stating how many they're they've been wrong on I can't find
anywhere but so here's what here's what happens is a long time afterwards over 70 days right yeah so this would be in
July and remember she went missing in early May mhm and so they bring in these dogs and they're going to go through
Apartment 5A yeah and uh amongst other places they they're going to venture down to the beach and throughout the
resort but it the troubles for the MCC start in the apartment yeah cuz what happens here is and you can watch the
these videotapes yourself on YouTube but every now and then it seems like the dog
handler makes like a little you know arm motion and then the dogs start barking about something uh and the dogs end up
barking by the W uh by by the in the family room by by the couch right and uh then somewhere in the
bedroom so well let me me describe these two dogs for you because not only not only do they have their their specific
uh job duties but they have different ways of alerting so the way that I understand it Eddie remember he's the
cadaver dog he is trained to only bark when he believes he's detecting a cadaver you know human remains but he
will he will get to a spot that he thinks that he's detecting that and he's just going to get bar you know he's
going to r r r RP RP now the other dog has that's not how dogs sound has a different method okay she Kela when she
believes that she's detected blood um she will do what I what I believe is called like a silent alert where they
where she will put her nose or her face on it in the direction of of what she believes that she's detected so we have
two different behaviors by these dogs now I will say I watched I watched the video footage from this uh and I was
I was I was a little confused I didn't notice the the Handler the strange movements by the Handler like you said
there there's people shoots his arm out there's people that are saying that the handler was directing the dogs to behave
a certain way I saw that outside of the apartment and we'll get to that but within the test conducted in the
apartment I definitely saw that the dogs seemed to be interested in the couch they were also claimed that they were
interested in a stuffed animal of meline that they were interested in some clothing this believe uh belonging to
Kate um and the thing here is though I didn't see any definitive behavior from the dogs that would lead me to believe
that I saw multiple times where they would walk past the the clothing they would walk past the stuffed animals they
the dogs were other than the couch seemed to be behaving strangely and they were hitting on the couch and as you
said it was the the area behind the couch that they seem to be really honing in on right and but then there also I
mean the caver dog went pretty nuts in the bedroom yeah um so look I mean we could go through every little my detail
of that video watch it if you're interested basically what the police because of these dog because of these
dogs and how much they've been right the the police basically the Portuguese police came out and was like you know
what here's what's happening what we believe is that there was an accident maybe from the couch to the window she
fell broke her neck or whatever and you guys covered this up because you know we have blood
samples now uh we got DNA and we're going to test to see if there was a a dead body in this uh in this room mhm so
that's what they came out and then and that's that's the that's the direction they went into this investigation they
stopped thinking about an inro Intruder and said look we got now we got to um you know get these get Kate and Jerry to
be found guilty of this but the dog the cab dog also hit on the car now this was
a rented car and we haven't discussed the rented car yet but they placed several vehicles and I don't just mean
like 20 20 to 30 vehicles in this in this parking garage and they spaced them an even amount away from one another and
the dogs checked all of the the vehicles but they hit on the mcan's vehicle this
is a rented vehicle they are they are detecting some kind of smell or hitting on smells coming from the trunk area of
this vehicle the strange thing though was this was a vehicle that they rented 24 24 days after she went missing after
she went missing so so their Theory then became that well that's no big deal because the the McCain's hit her body
then when they came back to Portugal they rented this vehicle and then they put her in uh to the vehicle and then
they drove to Spain now they actually did drive to Spain the first day to put flyers out for their missing CH for
their missing child but they also had a film crew with them that day so and it's
videotaped so the one day that they drove to Spain that the police are saying that they dumped her body
uh there was camera crew in the back now that camera crew was friends of theirs but again now you're going to say that
these these two parents that have no you know no History of Violence no history uh of any criminal activity that they
accidentally killed their daughter their daughter accidentally died they're covering it up and they got nine other
friends that are helping them cover it up and now they got this camera crew helping them cover it up it's kind of
far farfetched let me throw this at you too Captain because the the statement there is that they would have moved the
body right and hid her in what one would guess would have to be a better hiding spot right or or or cremated or or or
whatever some way of getting rid of the body here's the weird thing though would
you would you risk so at this point you've technically successfully hid that body for over 20
days would you would you risk being detected moving the body after you've successfully hit it for over 20 days
unless you hit it in a manner that would be incriminating to yourself it just makes no damn sense it's it's very
questionable now and now here here's what happened because we know got to move this along a little bit right no so
what happened then is the Portuguese police then bring Kaden for questioning right we're going to get back to the DNA
results and all that stuff of what the dogs found but they bring her in for questioning she goes in about like 4:00
5:00 she's there till like 1:00 a.m. right mhm they basically offer her a deal and the deal is we think you know
we lay it out we we think that it was an accidental death we think you guys covered it
up we think that you were involved we think that your husband was involved maybe somebody else but we're just going
to pin in on you two but we understand that you have young twins we understand that your husband is a physician he
makes a bunch of money so what we'll do is we'll just charge you with it and we'll give you we're going to give you a
plea deal for two years you got to spend two years in jail now all I'm saying is
you're off for two years you probably feel guilty anyways uh and why would you do this why
would you cover up your your daughter's death I don't know but if you did well this is pretty easy way out right it's a
very good deal for what you're being accused of it's amazing deal and she didn't take it to me that's a that's a
sign of her being innocent MH and that's a sign of the husband being innocent now
let's get back to these DNA results yes so this is a tricky item for me Captain because what I'm seeing here is that
they cannot rule out that the DNA and the blood they cannot rule out that it's not mine's but they cannot rule that it
is hers right out of 19 markers which is very low normally DNA tests have more markers than this for whatever reason
this test only has 19 markers now I would actually argue that there's a chance that the they have more markers
mhm and then so only 15 of the 19 markers matched so that doesn't rule out that it couldn't be Jerry's blood or it
could be um Kate's blood either right because they're you know they make up the DNA of their daughter as well so but
it also sounds like they couldn't rule out maybe even a stranger in in this situation you know it we we we can not
say that it's hers we cannot say that it's not hers right but but then there was arguments too that they feel like
some of the blood samples were of a male right and obviously she's a three-year-old girl so these tests are
so weird to me and I wish there was I looked for more stuff I I I couldn't find what I was interested too and and I
was hearing on some other show where they were talking about that there was definitive proof that there was a dead
body in uh Apartment 5A well definitive proof other than what the dogs right that's that's my problem and
that seems like a a bold statement to make when all when you're hearing this information second hand and all you have
is a dog that and like I said the behavior of those dogs I'm not a Handler I don't understand it but the behavior
didn't make any sense to me I didn't see a dog going directly up to an item and staying on that item right right yeah
yeah so and who knows but at the end of the day the only thing I could find that
you know showed proof that there might have been a dead body in in Apartment 5A would have been the dog's reactions but
as far as like some test goes I haven't seen it so again this DNA evidence doesn't prove
to innocence or guilt correct all right so we've talked about the mcan's quite a
bit now we also didn't fully we didn't fully clear the potential situation of a stranger abduction right we talked about
that a lot but let's get back into that because as of recent there's been some more developments as far as that being a
likely possibility the first is being a Man by the name of David Reed who is he well he's a convicted British sex
offender he moved to the area to where M mateline mccan went missing in 2004 this
was after being released from prison for sexually abusing young girls mhm he was
living approximately 30 miles from where meline was staying with her family this
in 2007 the other thing that the authorities are looking at is a certain a certain behavior that was going on so
from 2004 to 2006 in we're going to have to extend this area out I'm going to say in the
area but we're talking about a large area here right 30 40 miles yeah so there there's 12 break-ins and these are
all break-ins to to people staying there on vacation during these break-ins whomever is doing this they are
assaulting sexually assaulting girls that that are of the ages between 7 and 12 now I want to be clear here David
Reed is a suspect in at least one of those break-ins maybe a suspect in all 12 break-ins we're discussing an area
that is so large in fact that authorities it took them years to realize that there's a potential that
these are actually linked together right now as far as this investigation goes yes that behavior would fall into
somebody that might go into the apartment and abduct meline mccan that certainly follows that behavior people
breaking into different vacation homes right the problem here though Captain is in those 12 incidences that we have the
authorities are stating that they have over they have 38 Persons of Interest in those cases and he is he's just only one
of them one of 38 well and also David Reed is deceased yeah he passed away in 2013 um and they believe that he moved
there in 2004 because at the time Portugal had no sex offender registry yes and also uh a couple other things is
Not only was he maybe involved in these uh break-ins and these sexual attacks but there was also some other claims um
once he started becoming uh known in the community and people started saying hey
you got to look into this guy uh some girls came forward and made some claims now those charges were never pressed so
technically innocent until proven guilty uh but this guy was a traveling like he
would sing and play guitar and bands y uh he I I know of at least one confirmed where because of these attacks he was
attacked himself why he was playing oh really like they they went we know what this guy is he's a he's a pedophile uh
he's committed crimes he has some allegations against him he might be creating more crimes and they they pbl
him right in front of everybody so um does he match any of the descriptions pseudo uh right but as we mentioned
there there's a lot of people that would match some of those descriptions and and
I actually in my opinion um he's he's not as close as some of the the you know he's not as close as Jerry
mccan in my opinion very true um but but yeah he vaguely matches the description
yeah so one of the other theories about this was not that it was abduction but it was actually a burglary that went bad
yeah so this this has come about what just in the last year year and a half where Scotland Yard they're saying that
they are looking for possible links to burglaries and bogus charity collectors in the area at the time they have
released two of these EIT images of Portuguese men that they would like to identify there were four separate
sightings of Charity collectors on the afternoon of May 3rd at prer delug where she was taken from one man approached a
property near the ocean Club at about 400 p.m. in that that afternoon police say there was also a very large increase
in the number of burglaries in the area between January and may back in 2007 and
one possible scenario like the captain pointed out out was that meline not assuming that nobody would be in this
apartment that it was going to be broken into they were going to steal valuables
and that meline had Disturbed a burglar right but you you're going in to grab a TV and oops I got a kid oh come on give
me a break this is the dumbest idea that I've this is dumber than most of my ideas well I do want to stay on this for
for a minute you know so these collectors these charity quote unquote charity collectors that they're looking
for how did this come about why did they stand out so much well these were people
that were walking around and collecting money for different organizations but one thing that they were collecting for
was orphanages and how did they know that these are fake charity collectors because when they would get engag in
conversation with these people that they're trying to get money from they would say oh I'm collecting for this
orphanage in this city well the police are like that's your report to me are you sure that's what he said because
there's no orphanage in that city right so they learned that these are these are
con artists and they believe they don't know they believe that there's a link between these fake charity guys and the
increase in in the burglaries in the area at the time yeah cuz the idea would be well let's go in with the charity and
even if we don't get any money that we get information mhm and if we get get some information we can go back yeah
when we when we say that there is an increase in burglaries in the area we mean like within blocks in the resort
within blocks of the resort I think there was area right there was three within 17 days of her going missing
correct and there and there was a Breakin like I think seven days before you know they're in 5A right above them
mhm so but again the resorts don't they they don't want to tell you this and then the resort doesn't want to tell you
oh by the way we were telling authorities hey we need to stop this cuz this is bad for business and this is
going to get out so guarantee you they didn't tell the mccains hey you might want to make sure everything's locked
you know like that's no excuse you shouldn't leave your kids alone like that but if you would have heard about
these things maybe you would be a little more on high alert but they don't want to alert you about it because it's bad
for business and then the the cops don't want to bring this up cuz it's bad for business so you got these cops pointing
the finger at the parents of a girl that went missing when they they know the the
that there's been more break-ins in that area in the last 17 days mhm that brings
up the question of motive Captain right because we're talking about I'm with you
as far as we're talking about burglary gone back of course you're here with me I'm stuck with you we're in the garage
we're talking about a burglary gone bad so I break into a place I'm looking for cash and jewelry this is something that
I've done multiple times right because of course I do it all the time every weekend how we these new mics I get
inside and I'm startled by the presence of a little girl who might even be too young to identify me seeing that she
does not know who I am and you don't know if she knows karate or anything so I'm going to I'm going to abduct that
girl as a you know what maybe this kid is more valuable than what I came in here looking for or maybe I'm going to
abduct her because she saw me I think this is a jump this is a bit of a a this doesn't it feel like they're reaching
here Captain where they're like you know what there's we're we're seeing we see this uptick in burglaries and maybe it's
no coincidence that this happened at the same time that a small girl was stolen from an AP and what's weird is this is
the theory that's coming from the Scotland Yard police so that has nothing to do with the Portugal police if it had
something to do with the Portuguese police I would say well this makes sense because they don't want you to fear for
abduction they don't want to fear for sex trafficking they want you to fear just a Breakin mhm it's a break gone bad
but but it's weird that it comes from from the Scotland Yard police I think this is stupid the the motive is purely
it's it's sexual or to sell into sex trafficking it's ridiculous that's the motive so without even discussing it you
want to dismiss the what what motive the MCC might have right so we we have we you're stating that the motivation would
be sexual or some form of abduction motivation the MC it seems like their situation would be a
bit of a leap for a little bit of a stretch and a reach as well for to to make a motive out of their their
daughter accidentally died yeah their Physicians if if they walked in and their daughter had an accident they're
going to call an ambulance they're going to call somebody for help they're doctors they took a oath I have a lot of
nurse friends they took a oath they take that serious but Captain they they were
sedating their daughter and she died possibly of an overdose why why wouldn't they cover that up again it's a easy
it's a within seconds you call your ambulance what happened she got into this medicine yeah looks like candy she
ate it we've had this problem before yeah or uh I accidentally gave her a dose and then my wife did we made a
mistake we've caught her fumbling with the pills before you know it's it's easily
explainable so where does that leave us are you stating do you believe the MCCS are are innocent and have been victims
of uh of some bad luck here or or do you think who do you think right it's it's not like it was their only daughter and
that they're like hey you know what if we can get rid of her we'll just we can go party with Casey Anthony no no that's
not you know it's ridiculous they had twins it took them a long time to have meline like they didn't even know if
they're going to be able to have kids it was a you know they thought it was like
the miracle child these these these people were thrown under the bus right when people didn't do their
job and didn't do the investigation and I think still I still think there is motive from um the resort from the
community uh you know there's there's even signs that are painted like on the stop signs they'll say stop McCain or
stop meline circus m mhm because they don't want this publicity well it's like you know if you're going to have people
going and taking vacations to your place then uh your police need to do a better
job you need to do a better job the parents needed to do a better job um you know it's a very Mis it's misfortunate
but uh I think they got thrown under the bus I cannot decide to be honest with you Captain I know people don't like
that when somebody sits there on a fence and they don't pick a side here's here's
the fence I'm sitting on I have the MC's on one side I hope it's a sharp fence and stranger abduction on the other and
I feel like I know this is an easy out but I feel like I I don't have enough information to go either way with it I
do see some sub what I think is suspicious behavior on the part of the MC right but I also see things that
point towards they didn't do it the there in lies the problem the window for me is key if that window was open if we
found somebody else's fingerprints on that window I would say I would never look at the MC again um so the window
for me is key one thing here and I'm going to throw this little Theory out there and it's slightly different than
than some some other ones that we've already presented but the lead investigator he's gone on to write a
book he's gone on to uh do a documentary um if you want to dive into those I go for it I recommend it he's
was very close to the case the thing here is though he was you have to you have to read the subtitles he was also
removed from the investigation and my understanding of why he was removed was because there we have Scotland Yard we
have the British government they were inquiring about one of the employees at the resort and he either failed to
respond to their inquiries or he failed to investigate this individual now the thing the reason why I like this theory
is that the employee like the remember I said for me the window is key and when I
first saw that window somebody that has a knowledge of the way buildings work and a knowledge of security that window
appeared to me that I would have to do great amount of damage to it to get the shutter open however an employee there
might know that that's not the case that you could you could Jimmy that shutter open and most of the time these windows
are unlocked and I'm going to break in there and I'm going to take something that I want M uh so I I throw that out
there to everyone I don't and at the time you didn't have to be a registered sex offender so you could get that job
correct so I that's one thing that I would love to know more about unfortunately I think that you know is
this case solvable I think with the evidence that we have and the information that we currently have no I
don't think it's currently solvable what what will help solve this is if somebody
comes forward with information that we don't have or unfortunately if they find meline her remains if they find her
remains there's a possibility she could be alive out there somewhere I think that the way that they find her and
where they find her could point us to who is ultimately responsible and a a couple things you know this this case is
huge it's a whale I mean this could have really been like four parts uh we could
probably broke it down a little more clearly it's just so much the timeline if if Nick went through the timeline of
10 years there would have been like it it's just so much so we kind of wanted to put you know look at it more on the
idea of here's something uh that points to maybe they're innocent or maybe they're guilty so but there's definitely
a lot more to dive into this case there's also a bunch of sightings we haven't talked about those basically my
take on any sightings of her being alive all the pictures that I have seen and this is just my gut feeling none of
them are her except for one that I I have a hard time you know my theory is more that somebody knew that she was
there breaking them in not for sex trafficking but for their own um sexual desires or whatever and then when the
media storm got too big he had to get rid of the body he had to get rid of the girl that's my gut feeling but when I
see this surveillance picture of her and like a convenience store to me my gut is telling me it is
her so if that's true then where is she and who has her and just before this summer they were making announcements to
everybody that was traveling anywhere overseas to take a picture of meline with you and look around and look for
her it's 10 years later and they there's still there's still some hope out there
yeah and there's other little things that we didn't talk about like you know well the mccains when they talked in
press conferences they seem cold or just some of that stuff stuff I mean I think
those are little things that that that's not going to help you solve a case you know maybe it it it it puts a little
sand on the mountain but the the you really need to get to the meat and the potatoes well this was certainly a
heavily requested case and I want to thank everybody for requesting it well it actually was our number one requested
show in the last couple months really so I I don't know that's kind of weird how
the world works like I don't know if it's like we're all connected with this weird energy but man it's like every
other day I'd get one Maline McCain I'm like where is this coming from this is a
10-year-old case how about a little recommended reading here Captain you know about a week or two ago I watched a
great movie I watched a movie called split uh by m night shamalan uh it's you know I'm not going to tell you too much
about it because you know we don't want to be the the podcast that gives away movies yeah it's only like a year old
yeah but I watched it a couple weeks ago and it was brilliant but it reminded me
of a story that a true crime story that I had read years ago and I found out that M Knight actually used quite a bit
of this book for his research when he was writing the movie Split So today we're going to recommend the minds of
Billy migan by Daniel Keys now this is about a case that took place in Columbus Ohio way back in the day and Billy
Milligan he was a man tormented by 24 distinct personalities battling for Supremacy over his body a battle that
cated when he woke up in jail arrested for the kidnap and rape of three women in a landmark trial Billy was acquitted
of his Crimes by reason of insanity uh this is one of the most interesting cases out there I recommend picking up
the minds of Billy Mulligan by Daniel keys and you can do that by going to True Crim garage.com and click on our
recommended page and if you'd like to follow us on social media do so Instagram Snapchat Facebook all that
stuff @ True Crime garage we hope everybody had a good 4th of July if you're on vacation this week be good
have a great vacation until next week be good be kind and don't [Music] [Applause]
live you can live out your Master Chef dreams when you find a professional on Angie to
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Madeleine McCann /// Part 2 /// 121

Part 2 of 2

TrueCrimeGarage.com

Madeleine McCann is the most famous missing person in the world. In 2007 you couldn't turn on a TV or computer without seeing her name and face. Sadly she went missing just days before her 4th birthday. Now it's been over 10 years and we are still looking for her. The details of the night she disappeared are still sketchy at best. What really happened that evening? Was Madeleine abducted or is this whole thing a bizarre coverup? Tonight over drinks we discuss the possibilities.Beer of the Week - Flannel Mouth by Blake's Hard Cider Co.Garage Grade - 4 out of 5 bottle caps

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the timeline and investigation of Madeleine McCann's disappearance, analyzing witness accounts and potential suspects.

Key points

True Crime Garage Introduction. Nick and the Captain welcome listeners to the True Crime Garage podcast.
Questioning the McCann Family. Exploration of the McCann family's actions during the investigation.
Parents Leaving Children Behind. All parents in the group left their kids in the room while dining out.
Inconsistencies in Jerry's Story. Jerry McCann's account of checking on the children has changed over time.
Kate's Frantic Search. After discovering her daughter missing, Kate runs back to the restaurant to report it.
The Window Mystery. Discrepancies arise regarding whether the window was open or closed.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This case has gone on for 10 years.

Comment on the duration of the investigation.

7:48WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

50/ 100Some tension

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