JonBenet: Poems & Pornography /// Part 3 /// 725 | Forensic Files

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that's s a n everyday.com [Music] [Music] n [Music] now Jim and Frank I'm absolutely
fascinated by this tip line call that comes in in February of 19 1997 it's supposed to be a tip to try to
help direct or give information regarding the investigation in the homicide of John B Ramsey what was the
date of this call and what was the nature of this call okay so what we have now everybody has to
understand that case File information in this case coming out into the public sphere it doesn't
exist I mean you have the Ramsay interview uh John's interview you got uh two R py
Ramsey interviews but case File information we don't have it except for this and this is from the
this is a report from the Boulder Police Department we were emailed this from a third party saying that we should take a
look at something and they sent us a file and it was this so I'm so we're looking at it and you have there's a
date it's to one of the commanders at the Boulder Police Department and it's also to the district
attorney's office it's written by a detective dated 22697 1430 hours and in this tip line
call the detective is interviewing a woman who's calling to give information about a family member her
brother and she's stating that after seeing the Ramsay murder she thought maybe she should
call and let the police know and as the detective is interviewing her she's talking
about how her brother is a part of St John's Church and how he had sex with his sister her
from the age of 11 to the age of 18 and the woman is also states that her brother has mentioned that he knows the
Ramsay family and she wants this information to be given to the police and think it may
help and that they may want to look at her brother so that is in essence the tip line call it goes into you know I
don't want to read the whole thing but it just goes into where she lives where the brother
lives but the Crux of it is the information that she was sexually abused by her brother over a period of years so
you talking about incest and because of her age it's and she mentions it it started off as uh kind of
like nude modeling but then LED on into full intercourse so this wasn't just a case
of slight molestation so that is in essence this tip line call to be clear here the this tip that's coming in is
coming in for and I know that you've already said a lot of this but I want I want everybody
to have a good understanding the tip that's coming in is saying Not only was I subjected to abuse or
incest at the hands of my brother but this individual has uh direct ties to St John's Church and is in Boulder Colorado
1996 December um and so this individual should be of great concern especially factoring in that the victim in that
abuse case that she's calling in would have been a a younger victim yes she she was she was in her
40s when she made this call back and so this happened many many years prior to the murder so the the uh she was aged 10
or 11 when it started lasted up to she was around 18 her brother this is the person that's
connected to St John's was around 16 when he started the abuse of his sister and for whatever
reason when she when the John Benet Ramsey case broke it just reminded her of her
brother and she was like I better call the tip line which she did and then what you have here is
the detective interviewing her over the phone and she's giving him this information the other thing that came in
was a narrative written by another detective and it pretty much goes over the phone call that the other
detective had and it's just basically a summary and the detective actually writes after speaking with this woman
I felt it was important to speak with her brother so they bring the brother in and they question him but before the
brother they bring in Reverend hover stock who was the director or the head priest of St John's
Church they tell him about the phone call they have received from this woman and they and they they
mentioned that this person is that she's talking about is from St John's and hover stock says oh yeah I know him but
he said I'm shocked to learn about any kind of sexual molestation about him I had no
idea that is an important statement by Reverend hover stock because we have other
information that contradicts that statement by him and that's going to lead us to what
we what I want to call the uh the church timeline of events okay the church timeline is
not a police document this is a document that I made based on interviews with the person from St
John's that wrote The Man The Manchurian da and then later my brother and I got the name of another individual and
we contacted this person and we called this person so this is a third person so you have the tip line woman you have the
poem writer woman and now we found the uh person that we call the witness in the
church and the witness describes to us a story that ties in the poem The Three Men poem and how those how certain
stanzas were based on true events based on our witness in the church it's what our witness went through and witnessed
so our witness at the church joins St John's Episcopal Church in 1992 our witness states that father
hover stock is notified about an individual by the IND individual's sister that individual I'm referring to
is the individual I just talked about in the tip line the brother the sister that made the tip
line call in 1997 went to the church and told father htoo about her brother that
transpired according to our witness between the years 1992 and 1994 this is a huge
problem because as I had just read in the police documents hover stock said he was shocked to learn about this
IND individual and about any kind of sexual molestation according to what my witness
says he knew years prior so he knew exactly what this person was years before John Benet
died and then lied to the cops about it that opens up a can of worms because he was there that
morning he's a close friend of John Ramsay so big problems to continue with the church
timeline uh hover stock is notified about the brother by the brother's sister concerning the brother's sexual
abuse of her when she was younger mid90s father hsto oversees St John's 100th anniversary Capital Campaign which
resulted in a major restoration and expansion on Church campus Millions ions of dollars are
raised this is an extremely wealthy Church everybody needs to remember that okay January February
1997 woman calls the ramsy murder tip line the woman tells the Boulder Police Department about her
brother who is a member at St John's she tells the Boulder Police that her brother started having
sex with her around the age of 11 through 8 18 years of age she states that her brother you know that they need
to look at her brother when it comes to the murder of John Benet Ramsey February March 97 B the police
interview father htoo Overstock talks about the brother HCK says he has no knowledge of the
brother being a child molester Overstock says he is shocked to learn of this information and as I just stated my
witness contradicts that claim uh February March 997 The Boulder Police Department interviewed the brother
uh during that interview with the brother he pretty much has no alibi asleep at home with the with the
wife that's not considered a good Alibi April 30th 1997 let me jump in here for a second yes
sir where in proximity to the Ramsey Hall home is asleep at home with the wife very close minutes minutes driving
minutes walking minutes walking walking minutes walking continue on I'm sorry 1998 our
witness befriends the brother at St John's like I had mentioned earlier uh he was a very popular individual at
the the church uh the brother starts to talk to my witness as they get closer and then all of a sudden starts
telling her about incest fantasies that he's having starts showing her his writings
about incest and tells our witness that he is watching and fantasizing about little
girls who attend the who attend church at St John's uh my witness goes to Father hover stock and
other vestri members who are when we say vestri that's elected Church officials and she tries to tell them
about this individual's actions and behaviors about the incest fantasies and the fantasized about girls at the
church she is either dismissed or not believe and as she told me in N I believe it was 98 when she went to htoo
and told him what was going on with this individual Overstock told her to go light a
candle and then walked away I mean in reality uh this brother is grooming or I believe trying to groom the witness
yes she has a young child the witness got very upset during one of the phone calls and she started asking me why why
did he pick me why did he pick me to tell me these things and to show me these things and I
said you have a daughter right how old was she she was young I said he was most likely grooming you to get to your
daughter to see where you were at that's why he picked you anyway to continue Good Friday
1999 our witness finds child pornography and what is described to me as this individual's uh Studio inside the
church my witness notifies the vest members they notifi the the police department let me jump in here again
Frank so when we say finds child pornography are we talking about digital paper pictures what are we what
are we talk do we have an idea did not go into specifics okay so it could have it could have been one picture it could
have been a mountain of pictures we we don't we don't fully know it was it was uh as the only way she described it was
child pornography and other stuff okay that's it that's the only description something that that prompted
this individual to call the police it prompted her to notify vestri members Church leadership and they
called the police okay good Friday continuing 1999 B the police are called to the
church the Boulder Police uh have to break into the room cu it looks like this individual had locked
the door and now I refer back to the thre men poem uh they did not know he changed the
key when police would come to query so they broke and entered quietly though he would claim illicitly over a period of
years all this stuff is starting to add up they find child pornography and other
stuff there is one vest member uh who was present they give us the name I'm not going to mention the
name and having knowledge of these events my witness says there was several vest members present but there was one
name she remembered in particular the child pornography is taken out of the church and the
individual is removed from the church but is not arrested by the Boulder Police Department
for whatever reason it the bould of police cover up the search at St John's it's never made public there's no
paperwork on it that I ever that we ever found the public is has never been made
aware that a search at the church has ever taken place never mind that pornography was
found April May 1999 now this is where the poem writer information comes in because she was interviewed poem
writer states that vestri members meet to discuss what to do with this individual the poem writer states that
this individual is asked to leave the church this individual refuses this individual blackmails the
church the witness states that this individual Ed the phrase if I go down we all go
down this individual is paid off the amount paid poem writer states is $300,000 yeah read the line from the
poem Frank oh and then you go back to the poem and so avoiding Calum a grand sum he was paid to
flee now you got to understand we got the poem in 2003 and we're getting this information in like
2018 so everything is is connecting uh so this individual was paid uh around $300,000 my uh there's also payments to
other individuals and as my witness States rumors swirled among the church congregation that money
from the capital campaign was used to pay off this individual so it's not like people didn't have an idea you know
Church gossip gets around my brother and I talked to other people at the church they didn't want to
talk about this incident nobody denied it but they use phrases like uh that situation was taken care of
another person said uh we don't focus on that anymore we moved past that nobody denied it another line used
was we already took care of that with the Boulder Police believe it or not now so he's
paid to go away give him some walking around money some walking away money what year was
that stated it's by my witness uh by the poem writer is April May 1999 okay so $300,000 in 1999 today that
would be $550,000 approximately in today's money to to give everybody a good idea of how
much this guy was given away given to walk away to to vanish get the hell out of here and then we need to Clue the
listeners in too because the church a church is only as successful or wealthy or powerful as its congregation right
and in this situation St John's is in a very affluent part of of Colorado Boulder is
very affluent compared to many parts of Colorado but also the na this neighborhood in
particular is kind of the creme Dela Creme of of Boulder correct well just to give you an idea this is Supreme Court
gor's Church yeah these are the kind of people that go there this is how this kind of money is raised for a capital
campaign where oh we're looking to do an expansion and people in the congregation
give money and you you raise a few million not to mention not to mention the church
gave this person in today's money half a million dollars this is the same person
who was alleged by his sister raped and abused her fantasized about incest and about abusing other girls at the church
had child pornography at the church and you're going to give this person money to go
someplace else well well I mean that's that's how it all it all adds up in totality now you have to understand the
witness is not aware you know when I told her about poems she had no idea she she didn't know anything about poems and
when I was talking with her my the witness even said you know I started talking about the Ramsay case and she
started getting nervous she the witness is like you're not telling me that he could be part of this it's
like they didn't even they they don't know about the tipl line call because nobody knows about the tip line call the
witness didn't know apparently the poem writer may have had an idea when when it's written in the poem his sister told
them it could be so to finish the timeline after this individual is paid off and leaves the
church one of this individual 's close friends who was known as a bad seed a bad guy that's the information that we
received on this individual my witness states that this close friend of the individual who just got paid off
starts to stalk her children and threatens her to the point where she has to get a
restraining order against this individual and that's the end of the church timeline
so and I'm sure and I apologize to the listeners I know this is like a lot of information and it seems like we jump
all over the place but what you have here is a problem with this case especially when it comes to hover
stock because it's apparent I have no doubts about my witness the first phone call I had with her she was
nervous and I said we'll continue it at another time once I mentioned poems and she started panicking at the Ramsay K
that just somehow connected she panicked she calls me two days later and pretty much says what are you doing I said I'm
laying in bed watching college football what are you doing she's like I'm having
a picnic with my family here's how it happened happened and that's when she told me everything
in order and that's how the church timeline came into existence M so it appears hover stock light
according to this witness you have child pornography removed by the Boulder Police Department in a search the person
whose child pornography who has the child pornography is not arrested that's a problem because this
is the this is the the group that's supposed to be that's supposed to solve the ramsy cave and you're covering up
for pedophile so it appears the church and the police were kind of working hand inand
to make sure that this never came to light but what happened somebody got cute and wrote a
poem back in 2201 never guessing that it anybody could ever figure it out Lou knew what's
important me and my brother knew what's important we kept digging and now we are
at where we are at and we don't know how I don't think we can take it any farther we achieved
every goal that we set out in 97 to achieve we said there'd be a witness that would
make claims of child sexual abuse against JN or somebody close to those accusations were made the witness
came forward from California we said that if we kept digging in the town eventually we would
come across another case or another Scandal that roped in Ramsey case players that is what happened in the
church church Scandal the Ramsey Church the one John Benet went to an individual and then you have
payoffs and a coverup break this Scandal open get answers on why the police did what they did and the district attorney
they're just as culpable too because they had to have known about the surch they knew about the tip line
call so they knew about this individual from Jump Street District Attorney's office and the police department and
how the hell they get that tipline call in 97 and nothing happens until somebody calls in 99 Frank
what's F what's fascinating is is that you know you never hear anything really discussed about St John's Church you
always hear different you know theories and what's going on in in the house and what happened here what happened there
but no one ever discussed St John's Church and what did Ali what did Ali gray say about St John
Ali gray told us Ali gray was pushing us towards the church to to investigate the
church and two disturbing things he he said he said one concerning uh when when we were
talking about the individual who got caught with the child pornography at St John's Ali's words to
me were it wasn't just him right Ali said that there were multiple people in the church doing what
he was doing when I pressed Ali for names he did not give them to me he said and this this is how Ali dealt with
you know with us sometimes he'd be cryptic because you know he was he was dealing with his own non-disclosure
agreement well and detectives are always kind of very secretive right and they they they want to they want to keep it
close to the vest not disclose anything until they can susset the whole thing out themselves first they want to get
from you as much as they can exactly that's how they do it Ali was very much like that but what did he say Frank so
he no he said he goes there were other people besides this individual and I'm like involved I'm like involved doing
stuff to kids or child pornography he's like yeah and and my the first thing that came to my head I said not
Overstock right and he's like no he goes he's more trying to keep a lid on it he
goes I'm like well who and he's like look he goes look at the people who pay the bills and I didn't understand when
he told me back then what that meant he was talking the people who pay the bills
at St John's are the vest members the elected officials they literally pay the bills so Ali is saying that
maybe three to four of them why do you think the blackmail was effective if I go down we all go down and that's why
they paid him off because maybe he was threatening to out others so you got a huge problem within this church and like
my brother was saying oh yeah they threw out a lot of names in this case you know
they recycle them every year like clockwork almost Gary Aliva right that every year we'll get a Gary L story uh
what's another good one uh Michael Michael hellgoth oh yeah yeah maybe he did it oh yeah sure uh and then
people you know over the years oh maybe it was somebody from John's job because they were jealous give me a
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safe I I will give you a break I'll tell you what you're going to get another uh
Gary Aliva somebody from John's office uh business from True Crime garage when you tune in next week but but because
what we're trying to do here guys is look at this case from several different people's perspectives with different
possible theories and so we we want to kind of as you guys did with your investigation you you really
investigated Boulder what the hell's going on in this city at this time with with the players all involved what is
going on and so we wanted to do something somewhat similar and talk about things that we didn't get to in
those first six parts so um yeah yeah we we will be you know we're doing this interview here tonight but yeah you'll
hear next week and so don't don't get upset with me and send some rough email my way but
uh no no no it's it's I'm not I'm not mad at people you know the public or people who filed the case discussing it
it's I'm mad at the I'm just mad at the cops I'm mad at the District Attorney's Office it's like it's like they're
running a shell game on the public you know what I mean it's like it's like they almost like they know the truth but
they don't want it to come out in a way that's that's always been the vibe that I've gotten almost from the beginning of
this case it reminds me of the you know the Kennedy assassination in a way right
the mafia did it the Cubans did it you know they keep everybody guessing but don't look at the facts you know and I
know some people think Lee Harvey Oswell did it but some people I'm one of them think that maybe our government was
involved the intelligence agencies because so they keep you looking at everything else but the stuff and the
connections that you can make they don't want you looking at or they hide it the Ramsay K they hid this from the
American public they hid the search if this ha now Nick I don't how old are you Nick just checking you're going to make
me say this on uh on Mike I'm sorry I would have to I'm sorry putot Frank I'm 44 years old 44 years old 44 years
Youngy you're younger than us okay so so you have an understanding a lot of people are younger and they don't
understand what this case was like in the beginning how big it really was if this information
surfaced at the start of the case that church would have been destroyed instantly
instantly this and I for I just can't get away from the fact that they they bent over to protect this church and
protected a pedophile from being arrested for child pornography I mean who was in charge of the the the church
aspect of the investigation are you telling me they don't know this that me and my brother
like they have to know what they did the search right we we just figured it out we just got people to talk anyway uh
yeah it's it's just been a it's been a frustrating you know almost 27 years that's all sorry Nick no and and I'll
tell you what Frank that's a great segue into my next topic and and a good way for us to wrap up our this discussion
was incredible um we could we could talk for for days and nights and and enjoy every moment of it but so Jim I'll
Circle to you because this is how you got my attention Jim you had told me that to to not focus on who we need to
stop focusing right now on who killed John Benet we need to focus more in on the what and the why and as I recall it
you were saying what was going on in in Boulder what was going on with these people in in direct relation to this
case at the time and then the why is why don't they want to solve this case do I
have that correct yes you you do and it's you know it all goes back full circle you know to the to the to the boulder
syndrome and the how how to solve this case was not necessarily who did it but why it happened and what was going on in
the town and John Benet and and the horrible crime that was committed against her she
was a microcosm of what was happening in Boulder and what we were looking at and the
cases that we uncovered and mind you we're not even touching on certain things and certain cases that
involved City officials that were compromised that we've come across other attorneys attorneys
well-known attorneys in the Boulder area sex parties I mean you can go on and on
what was happening in this area and and when you have that type of of culture taking place you're gonna wind
up with a girl a dead little girl like John Benet but you got to know why it happened and what was going on you got
to know the background first that's why my brothers stated we had to start from the outside and work the case from out
inward to to get a bigger picture and like said we're hoping that this case will one day that you know will go
forward and maybe pressure will be put on the Boulder Police Department to give an
answer why certain documents were were were not released why certain things like the search wasn't made public the
American people need should know about that you know heck most people aren't even aware of the poems in the case you
know and these are these are big things um but yeah it's it goes back to the boulder syndrome that what was going on
in in in the town and you know uh Stephen singular said it best that when a town is trying to protect itself the
truth becomes obscured and I thought he put that very well and I would just like
to add you know when pedophilia runs a muck in a community someone dies it's always the
case when invad when pedophilia invades institutions Church uh city government power
structure and they think they can get away with it and just do what they want somebody's gonna get carried away
and that's what that is what I is what we think happened in the John Benet case back then there was a
culture you know as an old saying if you if you subsidize a problem you get more
of it when you ple bargain like that you create a culture pedophiles communicate with each
other imagine you know it's it's it's like uh Slusher we talked about him in the
beginning for what he did that he was an absolute monster monster at 24 when you
give a pedophile like that a slap on the wrist you know what he did when he got out of jail he became a child
pornographer y that's what happens you want to give outl sentences pedophiles are going to think
this the Greatest Town known to know the man hey we can do what we want here and if we do get
caught nothing's going to happen maybe we get you know a small jail sentence heck maybe we don't get any
jail like Jerry Barry or maybe we don't get prosecuted at all Bruce dbor and other cases that we
didn't go into on this show it's it that's the what what was going on the question for 26 years people have been
asking who who who who where's it got you it's got you nowhere ask the other questions well and the one of the poems
references recidivism and you know as somebody who studies crime and crime statistics I can
tell you this that a level three child sex offender has the highest recidivism rates out of any other type of
criminal and here and here they're giving them a slap on the wrist and in some cases nothing and in and in and in other
cases according to people I mean there was no prosecution at all look at the individual of the
church if what everybody said was true now everything's an allegation you know what my Witnesses alleging happened at
the church what the tip line caller alleges it's all allegations and if they're all true you and both
golden you gave this individual the church gave this individual $300,000 nothing happened to him he
walks you know what a pedophile can do with a boatload of cash damage and then the police no arrest and
he just gets to skate off to another Community doing who knows what did they even think that they were
unleashing somebody I mean it's I don't even I tend that really drives me up a wall
that person left the church with a whole lot of money he's been doing this stuff to young kids
allegedly since he was 16 started with his sister and you just let him skate to another community no heads up for them
that this that wherever he landed that this community has a monster coming their way
I don't even want to think if anybody else was harmed because if that's the case cops need to lose their jobs their
pensions anybody involved with what happened at that church if it's true if the allegations are correct they need to
be fired or have their pensions taken away examples must be made people in the church if they're still there that are
in leadership need to be removed sued whatever it's ah I I think this is a good time to
stop before I get too worked up this has been an incredible month here in the garage I'm so excited that
we were able to bring all of this information to you I know it's a lot and it's coming at you from a lot of
different directions but when we covered this case a few years back with our six-part series John Benet we realized
that there was so much more to this case and there were different important perspectives about this case and aspects
that we never even touched on and it was through the success of those episodes and the show's popularity that we were
able to speak with some of the individuals that you heard this month in the garage we spoke with John Wesley
Anderson who worked with Lou SMI who was one of the key players in this case in John B the master detective Parts one
and two we did a further Deep dive on Gary Aliva and some of the other suspects and persons who had claimed to
have been there when John Benet passed or may even have been responsible for her murder in John Benet I killed her
Parts one and two and we recently spoke with Steven and Joyce sing for our interview that we titled John
Benet presumed guilty we recommend that you check out John Wesley Anderson's book Lou and John Benet and the
singulars book presumed guilty we want to thank everybody for joining us this month here in the garage and all year
long and we will have our six-part series on John Benet Ramsey released Christmas week don't forget we have our
other show off the Record that you can subscribe to on Apple subscription or you can subscribe via patreon and for
those of you new to off the Record we have several John Benet Ramsey episodes one in particular that you're going to
want to go back and check out from May 14th when we speak with one of the officers that worked for Boulder Police
Department we will be back to our regular scheduled programming in 2024 and until then we want to thank all
of you and wish you a happy holidays and a Happy New Year and until 2024 be good
be kind and don't let [Music] her [Music] this show is sponsored by betterhelp for
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JonBenet: Poems & Pornography /// Part 3 /// 725 Part 3 of 3

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JonBenet Ramsey was murdered in late 1996. Her body discovered in the basement of the Ramsey family home on December 26th, 1996. But now here we are almost twenty seven years later and this murder remains unsolved, why? That is what we will be exploring this week. This was not the perfect murder and after what you will hear this week, I think you will agree that Boulder was not the perfect town. This week we promise some in depth insider information about the “perfect people” from the “perfect town” of Boulder.

Anyone with information for the Zell brothers should email JBRTips@Gmail.com

Happy Holidays and be good, be kind, and don’t litter!

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Brief Summary

A tip line call reveals abuse allegations linked to the Ramsey case and a church cover-up.

Key points

The Tip Line Call. A woman calls to report her brother's sexual abuse, linking him to the Ramsey case.
The Church Cover-Up. Allegations of child pornography lead to a police cover-up at St. John's Church.
Ali Gray's Disturbing Claims. Ali Gray suggested multiple individuals in the church were involved in child pornography.
The Boulder Syndrome. Exploring the protective culture in Boulder that obscured the truth about the case.
Consequences of Inaction. Discussing the ramifications of failing to act against known offenders.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's like big businesses have a vendetta against the Earth.

0:33WatchDec 20, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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