JonBenet: Poems & Pornography /// Part 2 /// 724 | Forensic Files

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trader just you wait Auto Trader [Music] [Music] now I I will lead the listeners in this
way with this bit of information this is a highly we can all agree the three of us this is a highly
controversial aspect of this case yes and there is some proof to back up some of her statements some of it uncorrupt
corroborated some of it challenged I've seen some statements that portions of her accusations have been debunked I've
seen other statements that say no that's not true so it's a little convoluted from everything I've
seen but I do believe I do believe there's something there and um I I do get a little nervous
with when we have the situations where with the I don't know if she was ever doing any of the hypnosis stuff because
some it's been proven that sometimes the these memories can be planted or manufactured a little bit um or do we
feel do and and I'm saying this even to myself do the three of us feel comfortable naming any names here if we
don't that's fine well look I mean there's you know her interviews are on the internet
they're public knowledge public knowled so I got no problem if people just know where to find them
correct yeah so so we have this witness and she she will be making claims you guys stop me when I get this wrong
because I'm bound to say something dumb at some point the the white family is from California correct
correct and she's claiming that she was sexually abused in California and correct when she's saying
that there the abuse was done to me and the way that John Benet Ramsay's body's found in the basement of the
Ramsey home mimics what was done to me correct correct she she was very specific
on I the abuse she went through as a child mimics what happened to John benay all
what we mean by what we mean by that is hands bound and some kind of breathing restraints uh restricting the breathing
whether it be choking or Gat or it was it was a gat that that's what was used on Nancy that that that's the woman's
name was Nancy she claimed that you know she was you know her her history with the family it's intergenerational
abuse it's uh a tragic story I've seen cases like this prior so it didn't shock me like it shocked some of the people
that were handling her uh you know we [ __ ] grandparents involved parents uncles the whole family and she would uh
and the family had a a trainer that would train these kids and her in particular how to please adults sexually
and this guy's name was Macky boin and he was known as the family trainer and if anybody is wants to dispute that you
can look it up he's he not this is Absolut abute fact and we know that because he's charged and pleads guilty
to the charges yes now eventually what happens to Nancy is that she and this happens over a period of many many years
to her and what she tells the Boulder Police and says hey look uh a lot of you know they would
have these parties where me and other kids would be abused and it it would include a garat
and if we didn't do any something correct they would hit us on the head as punishment and it would always happen
around the holidays because you had time to heal up from the wounds before you went back to school yeah and I'm going
to get into some pretty gross stuff here so if anybody listening wants to wants to zoom ahead about a minute and a half
but so I'm gonna go I'm gonna go out of bounds here but like so Ted Bundy we would learn from Ted Bundy that he would
he would often times choke or strangle his victims as he's raping them because the restricting the breathing the lack
of air then causes the muscles in the body to do different things yes and so he he did it for that M for those
reasons what Nancy our witness here is saying is that the the Gat or the restricting of the breathing or the
choking was a method that was taught or taught by the trainer and and even taught to the
abusers and the Raper the rapists that when you when you choke the victim the child victim here it
is a way to simulate that they may be enjoying the ACT is that correct yeah that's that that's that's exactly
correct it's the the Gat is a sexual uh tortur device while you obviously you can kill
somebody with it when a pedophile is using the garage you're trying to put your victim
in this certain State as you mentioned and it borders between life and death you wanna you
want to to the pedophile hit that spot with the garage and that control where you can make the body
the muscles seize and like you said it makes uh the victim kind of spasm move around and it
makes them appear to be enjoying it that's the that's the whole thing with the garat now Macky died Macky was an expert
with the garat he died in November of 96 so ny's claims is that this sex ring that there was
there was a connection between her family and people that her family knew to the ramsy case and she brought
evidence of pictures and she made claims against Fleet white senior Fleet white senior being the father of Fleet White
Jr who was one of John Ramsay's best friends and whose house John Benet was over you know the night that she died
yes and I believe her claim is that Fleet white Senor was her Godfather god parent I I believe the
connection is is that Nancy's mother Gwen that is Fleet white senior's goddaughter so okay Nancy's mother Isle
fet white senior's goddaughter and she brought pictures and she brought evidence that connects you know it
connected the whites to this family and yeah and this pretty on the internet was extremely
divisive at the time it was I can't I can't tell you how ugly it became online I tried to stay away from the online
stuff but for the short time I was on it people either believed her or just said
totally false and they they blamed everybody Under the Sun for this woman coming
forward saying it's a money-making scheme there was just a million different things thrown at
her and and I got to interview her you know for a time and and that's how I you know the the attorney that represented
her is name was Lee Hill they contacted him and told him the story he went out there interviewed her found her her
story to be credible came back home came back to Boulder and then Nancy and the therapist
started receiving threats from her family and they panicked and they called Lee Hill and they said we're coming to
Boulder and we got to get this done so she showed up and and Lee took her to the
police now as for me and my brother this was the witness we were looking for that we said would come
forward if our theory was true that a sex ring of some kind was involved in this in John B's death so now I have to
call Lee hell because in our in the initial months of the case looking into it I was
I I interviewed a a man a doctor in the town called Bob McFarland and he was a doctor that worked with a lot of
runaways latch key kids uh prostitutes in Boulder and when we and when I contacted him he told me
he's like you and your brother are the only people asking the right questions I need you guys to come out here and I was
likewhy can't you just go to the cops and he's like the he goes I got a line around the block of kids talking about
child sexual abuse and they're terrified of the police so this was our first taste of what we were dealing with the
Boulder Police Department and for the next several weeks after that first phone call with
Bob mcfr I told him I said if you want to give my number out I had some of these kids call me almost every night
for weeks and they were terrified they were telling me about businesses being involved in Boulder and you know
business in the front party in the back type stuff child sexual abuse parties they named a judge they they
didn't name a judge they told me a judge was involved but they were absolutely terrified to deal with the bould the
police department so now we go back so this witness comes forward Lee Hill is now
representing this woman by the time we find out we're like holy moly this is the this is the witness we were looking
for I got to call them and tell them hey don't you know don't do anything with her just sit on her so we
can tell you what we were you know what we had planned with her so it was kind of a forced phone call and how that
first phone call went me and this attorney are still in contact all these years later uh I asked him I said Mr
Hill are you the attorney for the woman that came forward he's like yeah I'm like well let me let me guess she
suffers from disassociative issu issues multiple personality disorder she has uh
injuries you know to a private areas and other areas she's uh the abuse was ritualistic in nature uh multiple family
members involved this was stuff that nobody knew but I knew because from working prior cases and that got his
attention and he was like how do you know all this and I'm like that's not important right now what's most
important is that you do not bring her to the Boulder Police Department because they're not going to investigate her
case properly and then he told me he had already done so and I said Mr Hill two things are about to
happen one you're going to watch as they do not properly investigate her claims and then number two you're going
to watch if they can't discredit her they will come after you and that's exactly what happened and I got to watch
it play out over a period of the next two to three years how his life just disintegrated because of getting
involved with that now she came from the west coast to Boulder because she was under duress they were threatening her
so she came to bould it to be hidden but what does the Boulder Police do they Conta
the family out in California tell tell them where she is what what she's doing who she's there with yeah what the you
know the whole plan and Lee Hill being an attorney was like are you guys out of your mind she's supposed to be we're
trying to keep her safe you're telling them what she's doing where she is what type of protocol is this he was a guest
that they were doing that well they have no protocol I mean when when they got a
phone call December 2 6 1996 saying that there's been a kidnapping now they don't
go so far into the they say there's a note been left the first thing the cops do is they just pull up right into the
driveway um the the house could have been monitored if if that was a real kidnapping there they had
no idea no Protocol no no nothing set into place nothing put into place on how to handle that type of crime and then
you see with this situation they're informing the people that could that could put her into danger and it's so to
to be a little I'll fill in some blanks here we don't want to go too far down this road but to put it as simple as we
can we have a woman who is roughly the age of Fleet White Jr correct roughly about the same age I believe at the time
she was in her mid-30s when she came forward okay and so so a little bit younger than Fleet
White Jr but she some of her claims uh are of sexual abuse violent sexual abuse over the course of a long period of time
that she says at times mimicked the way that John Benet Ramsay's body is found in that basement and she her family has
direct ties to the the white family and for anybody that's having a hard time putting this together Fleet White Jr is
very good friends at the time of the murder with John Ramsay and not just very good friends
he's with him with John Ramsey when the body is discovered in the basement he's at the Ramsey house and then later John
and Fleet white would have a a falling out and and the friendship would be over yeah that's that's that's a good way to
sum it up and one let's get into Lee Hill just real quick and touch base on this just just a little bit but one
thing I thought that was very interesting is this this will kind of show a the disconnect with Boulder I
believe it was with the Boulder Police Department because Lee Hill at the time was representing an individual that was
suing the tabloids for defamation of character because he was the Tabloid was naming
him as a suspecting the John B Ramsey murder was that uh miles yeah that was Steven miles and so Lee Hill is
representing Stephen miles and for so for that matter he has to take a deposition uh with John Ramsey correct
correct and at the time Boulder Police Department are saying we can't get this guy to talk to us he's dodging us he
won't answer our questions he won't sit down with us and Lee Hill goes to Boulder and says I got this this
interview this deposition with John Ramsey would you like to review it and they go nah n we don't want to we don't
want to review it the only person ever yeah to ever get joh under oath was Lee it makes no sense it it's almost like
what kind it's they it appeared to me that they didn't want to do any type of investigation outside of those four
walls of that Ramsey home let me tell you how bad how bad it was uh them not investigating now just jumping in the
timeline a little bit you know I was in contact with L Smith I mentioned that earlier for a period of
years from about 2003 to about 2010 and we'll get hopefully we'll get to how I first got in touch with him but
uh Lou would say all the time there was no real investigation done and as an example me and several
other people got together and we did a background check you know as deep as we could of Fleet
white we didn't find anything crazy you know a couple you know multiple Social Security numbers but that happens some
PO boxes in different places you know nothing nothing Earth shattering you know but we tried to give a timeline of
his life and we sent it I sent it to Lou and Lou takes a couple of days calls me
back and he said oh he goes this background check on fleet was tremendous do you mind if I take it and share it
with the Colorado Bureau of Investigation and I'm like you can do whatever you want with it we sent it to
you you know to help you know not at this point Lou Smith is no longer working the case because he had quit you
know you know that's a different part of the story so this is 2003 L still working the case and he's like Frank he
goes that that is the deepest background check he goes ever done on fleet white and it wasn't that deep and I'm like are
you to tell me that hardly any background check was done and he's like correct he goes so
when I say that there was no real investigation there was no real investigation and that's just a small
example of it nobody even really did a background check at the person whose house John Benet Ramsey was at the night
she died and who was basically riding shotgun when the dad finds the body and a matter of fact Fleet looked inside the
wine Celler yep says he didn't turn on the light and that's why he didn't see the body exactly it was but later later
he says he throws Jon under the bus and says well JN yelled or screamed that he found the body before he even turned
before he turned on the light that implying that John already knew that that John Benet was there before he saw
her or would see her because the light was still off now let's let's steer this conversation a
little away from from the whiten from the Ramsay for a minute because when I was reading presumed guilty I nearly
fell out of my chair when I got to this part because I thought holy hell only in
John Benet ramsy case would something like this even be possible I'm reading about your guys's
investigation and Stephen singular says that you guys had a great lead somewhere
in Florida but that lead quickly dried up when it when the individual was struck by lightning and
killed yeah I mean it's sad but but I mean I I I was pardon the pun here I was I was beyond shocked and damn near fell
out of my chair when I read that I thought only in the John B ramsy case would something like that happen a
possible lead gone because of the the very rare occurrence of somebody being struck by lightning C can you fill in
the blanks for me I'm dying to know what what's going on there some details about
that okay so just to just recap briefly 97 we come up with the sex ring Theory we're looking for a witness 3 years
later that witness comes forward so we've achieved that the last part that I kind of blanked out on which I apologize
for the other thing that we tried to achieve was we said that if we did our best and we found the the right sources
we would eventually find another case or another Scandal that connects the ramsy play players to it
because we always viewed it as this case is unsolvable it's been botched from Jump Street we believe you
know the narrative that it's the Keystone Cops we believe some things you can only bot some things until it starts
looking like it's on purpose so we we said there's no way to solve this case by the case itself what we call in the
weeds so we said if we keep going down our angle we'll eventually find another case that connects so we thought when we
found the witness that was the first big break okay and then the Boulder Police end the
investigation saying pretty much that her story doesn't connect to the Ramsey case but that her California
stories prior to the Ramsey murder should be investigated by other authorities like the FBI
so that ends the Nancy thing so I contact a reporter at the bould The Daily Camera name of Christopher
Anderson and we're discussing Nancy he is not a believer in Nancy we agree to disagree on Nancy
which is fine Chris was pretty good with that and he asked me exactly what my theory of the case was and again I told
him said my brother and I believe that you know there was most likely a sex ring of wealthy people and others in
this town somehow the Ramsey got involved maybe didn't know exactly what they were getting involved with
maybe and the kid died and Christopher kind of went huh and I said what and he's like this reminds me he goes your
theory reminds me of something and we and I said what and he's like in the early
90s there was a bunch of wealthy people in Boulder that got picked up and it got hushed up and kind of put
under you know kicked under the rug so Christopher Anderson's like how about we do an
article he goes I'll give you a by line so I was thrilled and it was going to be about
the Ramsay case and maybe what was going on in boulders past had something to do
with how the kid died maybe these people that got picked up in the early 9s so I
was all for it I was EC static I'm like finally I'm gonna get a you know a journalist to you know write an article
this is GNA you know this is going to be in the news people are going to pay attention to what the hell we've been
talking about and I asked him I said how sure are you of these names that you're talking about
and he goes the bould the police had a list he goes I know exactly where that list is and I'm like how do you know
this and he's like I used he goes when I first started I was the beat reporter for the
Boulder Police and the person whose place that he took as the beat reporter was the one that told him about this
list so I said okay and he could tell I was getting really excited you can tell Nick I tend to get excited from time to
time and he was like just calm down give me a few days he goes I the list isn't going anywhere I know exactly where it
is so I would pretty much call him every two days we're still doing this right he's
like yep we're still gonna do it I said the list is still there he's like yep don't worry he goes and then I bought it
the maybe the fourth day fifth day I called him and he's like look Frank he goes Don't Panic he goes everything's
fine I'm going on vacation down to Florida when I come back we're gonna do it I'm like awesome I can't wait to get
these names on the list me and my brother can start digging into it and then I get a phone
call a day or two later telling me to pay attention to uh a death in Florida Christopher Anderson got on a
plane landed in Florida went to the place he was staying to change and hit the beach went to the beach and got hit by
lightning and was killed yeah when it's your time it's your time right and that was absolutely devastating I'm like
okay you know maybe this is maybe this is never going to happen this is you know we're never going to be able to
break through with our information or get people to to you know take us serious because I mean you can't explain it it
was almost like you know God saying nope this I do not want this solved not yet anyway so that's that's the Christopher
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Safe crazy I mean just when you think a case can't get any more crazy or or weird or out of bounds
there we go now so this one of the most interesting things you guys ever inform me
about was the John Benet Ramsay tip line right after the murder call in if you know anything if you saw anything if you
heard anything we we need tips and later Lou would would tell the Lou Smith would
tell the papers and I'm glad that he did that you know there's like 3,000 or so tips come in and he says from every
document he reviewed it it appeared that the Boulder Police Police Department did
not follow up on 95% of the tips coming in but there was one tip that you guys were really interested in in in an angle
of the case that I had never heard of before and I want you to tell everybody about that tip if you feel comfortable
doing so uh yeah we yeah we yeah we can do that um do you mind Nick if we kind of backtrack a little because we have
this part's got got to be kind of told in order because this like the tip line works with other things but it's not in
the proper order is that okay you you you're the one that informed me about this information so you tell it how you
see fit as I had mentioned uh the attorney Lee Hill after he represents Nancy uh and goes to the
bould of police as I had warned him about they did not properly investigate her claims and his life fell apart
and it got to the point where he said he needed to leave the country which he did cirer around
2003 but before he left he told me he was sending me some items some of it had to do with
Nancy uh he sent other people information as well so I received the package from leh
hill and in it is a poem and it's called well there is no name and when I uh when Lee called me
from Asia and I said what's up with this poem and he was like Hey look he goes I
received a couple of poems in my mailbox just try to get it to somebody you trust he goes because I think it's
important and this poem I gave it the name uh the three men poem now it's a little bit long so Nick
I don't know if you want me to read it or I would love nothing more than for you to read the poem right
now okay so this is how the poem starts this is not the author of the original poem recidivism is my only
concern you are the only one who has a copy of this please respect my anonymity people who abuse children are terrorists
too in the spirit of Crazy Horse it's all connected and then the poem Begins the truth uh in his cocky Ry the
truth the three would carry to the steps of the authority to boast of their pernicious
spree but he did not know that I could see and therefore was not wey for hidden in the rectory protected by
the church decree he delved in child pornography while Elders professed not to see his sister told them it could be he
killed the child and honish she his secret would not bury they did not know he changed the
key when police would come to query so they broke and entered quietly though he would claim
illicitly and so avoiding calumny a grand sum he was paid to flee and so it was conveniently their questions he would
Parry to solve a tale of misconstrue just look into the Offman Pew you'll find there in Fort lupton's slooh stray
cats are plenty skinned a few on prying Stoops there their hides did strew and cats blood will scare daughters
too while Bish bushes hid their sins from view Richard held the Quee the child must die he did
decide the crime arrange the ritual pled with church at stake and family Pride three men he chose to
enter though two decried this church a lie their testimony was the denied with ties that run both deep and wide no one
could defend her now some have gone and some have stayed class to find the roles
they played someday you'll know the Masquerade of Zack the great Pretender and then it mentions the three
men and gives three names so this is the poem I received from Le and I don't know what to do with it I'm
kind of right you know I'm like okay this is the Ramsey you know this is the Ramsay case a lot of crazy people out
there anybody could have written this but it was written in such a way that I kept going over it
and when it mentions the three names one I had never heard of before in regard to
the Ramsey case two is a very popular name that everybody would know and then the third
was a little known name that I had I had recollected I had heard before but still most people would not
know the name so I read this poem as I'm doing now to somebody that's in Colorado
and they said hey you know do you mind if I tell somebody what you just what you just read
me I'm I'm like sure and they're like okay give it I'll get back to you in a couple of days two
days later I get a phone call from Lou Smith I had never contacted Lou before but yet he's calling
me because of this poem and he's pleading with me for me to give it to him that's when I knew that there was
something special about this p and especially these three names for why would Lou beg me the way he was in the first
phone call and that was the start of our relationship was this poem and Lou was desperate to find out
who wrote it now all we had to go with was envelopes which I think I think Lee lost
the envelopes but they came with Denver postmarks and they were addressed weird right like it was the the uh the return
address was uh for the children that was the only return address to go off so the return address
was for the children it was addressed to leh Hill and inside was this poem so we
had pretty much the entire city of Denver that's all we had to go on So eventually
L said you know what Frank it's going to be impossible for us to figure this out we
might as well stop and I said and you know what in retrospect he was right and I was wrong
well it wasn't his first rodeo yeah well well I wanted I I told him and I argued
with him I said Lou I said you have a copy and I got a copy yeah I said Lou wanted to keep it under
wraps but I I told Lou I said' Lou the person knows the case because when you break down this
poem you're talking about something going on at the church yep and when you go down a few
stanzas to Sal a tayor misconstrue look into the Offman pew you'll find there in
Fort lump slew straight cats of Plenty skinned a few on prying Stoops their hide their hides did strew that's
referring to Steve Thomas he wrote he even wrote it in his book that a mutilated cat was thrown on
his lawn and cat's blood will scare daughters too that's referring to Linda a she had cat's blood thrown on her door
the only now most people some people know this if you know Thomas's book I remember this when it happened yeah
there were three things that happened the cat thrown on Thomas's lawn Linda AR had blood thrown on her
door and sergeant witson had bullets fired into his living room window these are three important players
on the police side Steve being one of the lead detectives Linda AR who was there when the Body
Found yeah for an uncomfortably long period of time by herself mind you and mind you she asked for help multiple
times and did not get it called for help multiple times and they just ignored her
calls I and you know she's somebody that kind of gets thrown under the bus and I
think the public has been a little impolite to Linda aren't um has she said some strange things over the
years yes a couple but we pointed this out in our six-part series years ago I couldn't I I have some knowledge on on
police work and how it's supposed to work and and for her to call that in and and that one she should have never been
left there with that number of people by herself anyway uh especially if it appears at the time that they are
working it as the note as the letter presents itself to be that there is an abduction and possibly seeking a ransom
and yet they leave her alone when a ransom call could come in at any minute with all these people and they don't
even really fully know what's going on yet and she's calling in for help and they leave her out there high and dry
and I've I've so I've always been a little upset about some of the public ridicule of her over the years because I
think she was put in a compromising position in an unprofessional and and position and in a position that none of
us should be put in and then ridiculed for her behavior or her observations later which I just think is
she was treated unfairly on the day after Christmas 1996 and and still to this day a treated
a little unfair um since then yeah oh I'm in total agreement I mean her life was destroyed because of this case you
know and don't don't forget she then sues her own department where during that trial you know she she talks about
being threatened by people within her own Department yep so it's yeah she she got thrown under the bus just like many
people many people have suffered because of this case many St miles why his name was mentioned whether
it came from the Ramsey Camp the cops why stepen he was a guy that a photographer artsy guy extremely nice
man I worked him as a source for close to 20 years best source I ever had he wanted nothing but to get to the truth
of this case and he helped me he sacrificed friendships for me and he just passed away last summer and
he wanted nothing more than for this case to be solved but you know Lee Hill his life
destroyed uh you know Steve Thomas whether you love him or whether you hate him he loved being a cop had to walk
away from it all yep and it just goes on and on and on with this case but uh and
I'm glad that you bring up Steve Thomas because you know there there there are a
lot of things that I dis agreed with him in this case when we did our first six-part series but one thing that
I wasn't clear of is that he too was put in a tough position and while his investigation didn't kind
of go the way that I think maybe it should have gone and I I I don't know that he had the experience to handle
such a complicated case like this he made some very good observations some that that I think
other detectives may not have been able to make so he did he did make some good efforts in this case and and you know so
we we should thank him for his work on the case as well oh yeah I mean like I said you know whether you agree or
disagree with Thomas the guy you know he he was pretty much a cop who tried and and just got disgusted with it
all and walked away now do I think you know him thinking paty did it no but but this case
is you can't BL excuse me you can't blame some of the cops for thinking the Ramsay were involved I mean you it's
just common sense there are things that point to the ramies let's face it the body's in the house the notepad is
theirs paintbrush is their you can go on and on so a lot of stuff points to them being involved in their
daughter's murder but yet the DNA doesn't match so there's there's this huge there's this huge disconnect but
you can't blame the cops you know it's it's op it's standard operating procedure You' got to look at the
parents first you have to oh the statistics will tell you that the the and this is something we've talked
about on the show numerous times but it's it's it's always one Social Circle first that you have to look at in any
homicide investigation because most homicides are person a gets angry at person B about something and they kill
them in a fit of rage or on an accident don't you know they they intend to harm them but not kill them and
so the overwhelming majority of homicides that's exactly what happened so you look at the social one Social
Circle first well when we're talking about a child homicide the younger the victim the smaller the Social Circle
that they have it's just the the way the world works and the way that are the the
nature of our lives and so with a six-year-old victim you have to look with inside those walls first so yes of
course but what what with these poems do we feel comfortable talking about the the the tip that interests me
so much that came in in early 1997 uh to the tip line well I I had I have to bring up the poem first
because it there was like a there was like a chain of events yeah the background is very
important so we have this poem I give it to Lou cuz Lou really wanted it and I spent Lou kind of gave up on
figuring out who wrote it he really wanted to know but you know it was it was almost
impossible so I keep trying I tell Lou I'm not GNA stop I'm gonna keep pushing and maybe eventually we'll figure it
out Lou gets sick and passes away well I believe is in 2010 maybe a year later me and others
are working to S you know to figure out out who wrote this I brought this poem to colleges had professors look at it
and who who were experts in poetry and they were like you know this isn't some crazy person that's just writing this
you know this person knows what they're doing when it comes to writing poems they understand structure and poetic
rhyme this is this is somebody who knows what they're doing when it comes to poetry so I'm trying to figure you know
start looking into that and eventually I go to one of my trusted sources step miles and I said Steve you know anything
I asked him you know anything about poems and he was such an open guy I could tell right away when he started
stammering that he knew something and I said Steve I said I've been dealing with
you for years now I said if you know anything about these poems I said man you got to tell
me and he's like yeah I know about poems he goes I mailed one to Lee Hill I was asked to and I said
who he said A friend of mine a member of St John's Church now there were two poems I always thought there was one
Stephen singular had another poem we both thought we had the same po yeah and we never really discussed it that was
the part that not only confused you guys when it happened but but it confused me
because I'm reading his book and he he puts a portion I believe of the poem that he receives and then later you and
Stephen at some point figure out that you've both received poems but they're but they're actually different poems
well and like I said earlier we kind of like we didn't work on things together the the singulars are their own brand
you know and me and my brother we do our thing and occasionally we would kind of bump into each other
with information this was one of those instance uh instances when he said he had a poem I
had a poem and I said oh it's so you know about the three names right and he's like my poem doesn't have any
names and I'm like what are you talking about he goes my poem's called The Manchurian
da and I'm like what so I I don't know if you want me to skip that part uh I do have it here if you
want me to read it Nick if you think it's we should just continue on and get to the point that you're asking about
the tip line it's up to you no I like I want to hear the the and I think the listeners will want to hear the other
poem as well okay so attorney leh Hill has mailed two poems that he received out one is what we call the thre men
poem to me in the Manchurian do poem was sent to author Steven singular Stephen miles
was asked by somebody involved who's a member of St John's Church to send one of these poems to him and ask Stephen
miles to go to Denver so it did not have a boulder postmark so Stephen said he took a a
busted Denver and then dropped it in the mailbox MH and that's how he'll got it so the Manchurian da starts off they say
that innocence prevails and evil cannot Master time and riches and fame and fortune sow some evil seeds which then
will grow to devour their progenitors of 30 Duos some must know that they them out that they themselves
will out their crime and have within an old man's fleeting Lear the cycle of the Dows came round it
poisoned sick the world's Ule cheer they use their own in passing down the rituals remain
unfound and Christmas break gives time to heal parties abound all wounds congeal but
one at blyly festive New Year's bash some candidates in Roots stop there as if by figing toasts and chees
they could undo the Fatal sash the week before but handlers die and what to do with Christmas nigh the one in L did air
St John would roll over in his grave to know the smut that crossed his Nave yet Christmas day he held her near as if he
knew she disappear that very night an elder cleric's errant son his extant Crush now on the Run did they Supply the
candidates with fodder for their LW Eun D tell truth blazes in but from mcfar the hunt team's snare was too Adept with
Keen eyes place to guard the bar the talk of Dos and silence kept they tripped the truth while jurors prepped
then sacked the hunter as inept but Hunters now the haunted R death's officer pery bared though
taints of roofs fast disappeared no antidote this snow white spared the other signs were clearly
there yet all were hastily intered and silky dressed and golden haired truth slept of one who died outstretched on
high most gentle hands his swaddle made and in Spoke Al cloth she laid nor twins
replay round captive limb this Mortal braid is our demise when Angels perish in its
Vice betrayed by kindred's ging lies as purloin Justice turned blind eyes a panic lapse left
unsur Clues carried home already prone sleep guised however one must study grates
take for example William Meats who spoke about banum no Governor could stop the run your split and planning took its
toll your race spun out of control Things Fall Apart the Antichrist lurks in the head it festers in the carnal eye
which takes young victims from their bed to suffer that and then to die now vacant half Gaz tears are Shed from
ambidextrous author stead one da now groan hides in dread another Manchurian Candidate is
dead so now we got two poems am I crazy but does it feel like it's written by Nancy right you would
think because yes it's there are there are references in in the manuri and d right
story there's references to that that the Christmas break is going to heal all wounds but one that's right and so the
the wound that may never heal could be the death of the child or could be the damage down below that is talked about
we don't need to get into that too much um and then when when we reference St John's of course they're that that's the
intent is to talk about the the church and that's the church that the ramies attend that's the church
that a lot of their friends attend as well well correct correct uh John Fernie the doctor Dr Francis
puff also a St John's member uh very close Confidant to John Ramsay was Reverend htoo who was going to play a
key role with these in the story of the poems and the tip line and the tip line that you mentioned and before we go any
further go through the roster of names that were present at the ramsy house the the morning after the morning that
John B's body is discovered in the b in the basement and which ones on that roster have direct relationship with the
church okay well everybody that has a direct relationship so let's start John and paty their Church John
Benet the victim she attended that church The Ransom notes said don't call anybody or we'll behead Your
Child So what do they do they call people immediately Fleet white accusations he doesn't go to St
John's but he's called John and Barbara Fernie big players at St John's Church they're called to the
house Reverend htoo he also comes over those are your key players and then when paty is taken to John fernie's house
after you know the body's found she goes to John fernie's house they take her there that's when the doctor heavily
medicates her now people always say you know she had a whole bunch of doctors you know cancer doctors why call the
pediatrician to be the one H I guess she was close to him because he was a church member
you know and then she is heavily drugged at John fernie's house so those are your key players and
now look there were a ton of people there you know Social Services had a bunch of people there I think other
church members showed up and everybody was cleaning that's how they kept busy wiping down the
kitchen so yeah now you can't blame Linda aren't because like you said you know they were going
under the the idea this was a kidnapping but Linda AR could tell that things were just going out of control
there well she's trying to Corral them into the den or to the office area and she can't keep you know it's like it's
like hurting cats she can't keep everybody in there um and and in her defense as we already stated she's left
there alone without any help for from from her department and an interesting note be you know before uh she was a a
detective uh she works sex crimes so she would she may have known about some of the stuff that we
came across over the years the names I mean we haven't we've we've talked about cases we haven't even gotten into a lot
of it because you know he can't have us on for eight hours but you know the town had a
problem and we always said you know the answer is in the town and like you mentioned cops always look they start
from the inner circle work their way outward that's why we did the opposite we said we can't look at it
this way we gotta take it and from the outside and work our way in until we find something another case or event
that's separate from the ramsy murder that brings in or connects other Ramsay players that may be your only chance to
solve this case because the first case was so botched so bad that we believe that our way was the
only way so you now have these two poems I believe Steve one you know Steve got excited when I told him about the
three men poem gave them the names one name was a member of St John's Church another uh this man we can mention for
sure John rosi it's a name that nobody ever heard of and Jim what do you think about the third name uh well the third
name um third name was uh wasn't a supect at one point we'll we'll just say it now while
this poem it's just a poem and this was the problem for me was it could have been written by anybody could have been
written by an insane person but it was lose importance it was how he deemed it important and
and asking me for his help and finding out who wrote it that these three names had to be important
so one was a member of St John's Church the other guy's name was John rosi and the third was mvin
Pew now the poem this is an accusation so they're saying so the the writer of this poem is saying these
three men Were Somehow involved in the murder of John Ben Ramsey that's what the poem is making reference to correct
yep okay so we have that now we so we have the per we have the two poems we have the person
who delivered one of the poems I get the name of the writer of the poem we contact
her there were others I'm not sure if they want their names involved so I'm just going to leave it out but there
were other people involved with helping me it wasn't this wasn't just me and my brother at this point
but event you know Lee Hill came back from Asia to help us out to try to get this person to
talk and this person eventually did and eventually this person who was a member of St John's Church admitted to rioting
the manuri and D poem they would not admit to writing the three men poem because you're naming names you're
making accusations and you know there's some when you start reading it and you start breaking down each
stanza there's some truth you know that you there's some truth to it that you're
about to see and you can understand why nobody would want to cop to writing it because there may
be legal ramifications for what happened now we continued our investigation with
the poem and now the the years are going by so now you're talking this was now so now
we have the writer the writer doesn't really want to cooperate cooperated for a short
time but then backed away okay so we keep digging Jim what would what would you say would be the next big break that we
took after that well just going back to uh the names on the list real quick just
to state facts of the case you know alleging you know the allegations that are there mvin Pew also looked at as a
suspect early on did receive a DNA test and was eventually cleared according to the early DNA tests so I just wanted to
put that out there wait wait wait wait so he was cleared because of DNA test but he was not he didn't have to submit
DNA is that what we're saying I'm confused from my understanding ing they he was given a DNA test they took his
DNA and he was cleared he was cleared correct okay now he has an interesting name here right because mvin Pew didn't
one of the poems say something about Offman Pew yeah it's that's the part where it
says and I mean I I'm Catholic so I know what a Pew is but uh when you break down the thre
men poem and you look at it carefully the P the writer of this poem chose their words very specifically and wrote
it in a certain way to give Clues yeah for example a little you know to Sal a tale of misconstrue just look into the
alman's Pew it doesn't take rocket science to figure out Offman Pew is a play on the last name hofman
Pew you'll find there in Fort lumptons slw Fort lump is where they used to live at one point wait Hof Hoffman pews the
the the cleaning lady the uh housekeeper yeah and mvin pews a husband and and here's the thing I've I actually found
myself in a conversation about mvin Pew and and Hoffman Pew uh uh just a few days ago somebody
asking if if how well they were vetted and we know they were question question very quickly because
py points the police in the direction of Hoffman Pew because she had asked to borrow some money and they even had
Hoffman Pew submit some handwriting samples now and I'm going to ask you guys to
confirm or or uh or tell me that I'm just wrong here but it's my guess based off of my mited understanding of of
these two individuals that they I don't believe that they would be able to write the
ransom letter do you agree with me on that uh yeah I I I I would agree there were some words and some terms and some
phrases that were used in The Ransom note that I don't know I I wouldn't if I had to make a wager I wouldn't bet that
they could write that letter yeah no I I I agree with you I agree I I don't I don't think I think none of none of the
three names mentioned in the poem are going to write that Ransom letter I I agree and Not only was mvin Pew
excluded the one name that is a member of St John's Church he was excluded the person that
we've been advised I want to be clear here with the the listeners so we can be candid we've been advised not to say
this individual name corre yes that's correct correct so uh the the individual who can't be named trying to
get his story about his DNA a little on the confusing side because I've been given multiple
stories first I've been told oh yeah cleared right away in 97 but then I start getting information
that well maybe he his DNA sample was improperly taken so I'm told that then I'm told oh no no he was cleared in 2008
then I'm told oh no no no he wasn't so there's this confusion when it comes to this individual who's a member of the
church about his DNA there may have been somebody may have screwed up once again
botched by the bould the police department and I'll say it again when you start botching this much stuff
sometimes it could be on purpose I'm just saying that's how it appears because this case has been
botched all the way through and now you're telling me you can't take some people's DNA you can take right and
maybe some people's DNA you take wrong and to make it even worse CU everybody especially today everybody's
got such high hopes ah d DNA that's going to solve it finally they got outside people looking they got this
cold case unit DNA DNA DNA Ali gray told me back in 2007 that he was gonna start
collecting certain people's DNA not going to mention their names but big players in the case yeah that you would
assume have been excluded and were via DNA and when I asked Ali why he was doing that he was like Yeah there may be
problems with uh some people's DNA where you know we may have to do it again and do it right so if you can't
even trust who's been excluded how you going to solve this case via DNA some fascinating information and
fascinating insights into Boulder Colorado we want to know we want to hear from you please go to True Crim
garage.com we have our blog there get involved in the conversation we want to know what you think about these two
poems that we've reviewed here this week join us back here in the garage for part
three with the zel Brothers until then be good be kind and don't [Music] litter [Music]
look around you can find cars like these on auto trader like that car right in your tail or if you're tailgating right
now all those cars doubling as kitchens and living rooms are on auto trader too are you working out and listening to
this ad at the same time well multitasking Pro cars like the ones in the gym parking lot are for sale on auto
trader new cars used cars electric cars maybe even flying cars okay no flying cars but as soon as they get invented
they'll be on auto trader just you wait Auto Trader

JonBenet: Poems & Pornography /// Part 2 /// 724 Part 2 of 3

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

JonBenet Ramsey was murdered in late 1996. Her body discovered in the basement of the Ramsey family home on December 26th, 1996. But now here we are almost twenty seven years later and this murder remains unsolved, why? That is what we will be exploring this week. This was not the perfect murder and after what you will hear this week, I think you will agree that Boulder was not the perfect town. This week we promise some in depth insider information about the “perfect people” from the “perfect town” of Boulder.

Anyone with information for the Zell brothers should email JBRTips@Gmail.com

Happy Holidays and be good, be kind, and don’t litter!

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Brief Summary

Witness Nancy claims abuse linked to John Benet Ramsey's murder, raising questions about a sex ring and police investigation failures.

Key points

Controversial Claims. A witness makes shocking allegations about abuse linked to the Ramsey case.
Witness Connection. The witness claims ties to the Ramsey family, raising eyebrows.
Unbelievable Coincidence. A lead in the investigation is lost when a potential witness is struck by lightning.
The Tragic Death of Christopher Anderson. A shocking turn of events when a key informant dies unexpectedly.
The Mysterious Poem. A poem linked to the case raises questions and intrigue.
Unfair Treatment of Linda Arndt. A discussion on how a key witness was ridiculed and treated poorly.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Next level moments need the next level network.

0:18WatchDec 20, 2023

Tension

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