John Douglas - The Mind Hunter ////// 302 | Forensic Files

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a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Longview, Washington. May 15th, 1985.
The school bell rings. It's the end of the school day. 8-year-old Rima Traxler leaves on foot
returning home from Saint Helen's Elementary School. On the way, she decides to stop at a
friend's house. She wanted to show off an art project she made at school. After a brief visit, she continued on
her way walking towards her family's residence. Eyewitnesses observed her walking
approximately two blocks from her family's home. Rima never arrived at her house that
afternoon. She has not been seen again. Rima was a smart little girl raised by a good mother
who taught her the dangers of talking to strangers. Little did she know pure evil was lurking close to home and
just right around the corner. Rima was last seen walking home from school. The third grader was about 4
feet 3 inches tall and 45 lb. She was a beautiful blue-eyed little girl with blonde hair that fell down to
the middle of her back. She was wearing a pink shirt, plaid tan skirt, and white tights.
When Rima failed to come home, her mother, Danielle, became very worried. Danielle walked to the school to retrace
her daughter's steps. She saw nothing that would alert her and nothing that could offer any clue as to where her
daughter was. When she returned home, she called the Longview police and reported her
daughter missing. With the announcement of her child's disappearance, the police
and community organized and conducted an intensive search for the little girl. But just like Danielle, they didn't find
Rima and they didn't find any clues. Despite no one coming forward saying that they saw the little girl abducted,
police actually had suspects. One suspect was a friend of Rima's stepfather. The suspect was 26-year-old
Joseph Condro. Investigators questioned him during their initial 1985 investigation.
But there was no evidence linking Joseph to her case. Unfortunately, Rima never returned and eventually the trail went
cold. The case remained opened and unsolved. Then, over a decade later on November
21st, 1996 at 7:15 a.m. Larry Holden dropped off his niece and his fiance's daughter at
school. His niece is Yolanda Patterson and his fiance's daughter is 12-year-old Kara Rudd.
After Larry drove off, a 1982 Pontiac Firebird pulled up to the sidewalk. The driver is now 37-year-old Joseph Condro.
Both girls knew Condro. The girls actually lived together. Larry has custody of his niece and he
lives with his fiance, Janet Kara's mother. Joseph Condro stayed for a brief time at
their home. So, when Condro pulled over in his car, the girls came running over to talk to
him. Kara got in the car while Yolanda stayed outside. Joseph and Kara had some kind of
conversation. Kara gets out of the car and tells Yolanda that she wants to skip school and go out to Willow Grove.
There's a pig farm out there and she wants to play with the piglets. Yolanda wants none of this because if
she skipped school, they could get caught and then they would be in trouble. Yolanda starts making her way to the
school building. Condro drives off. The last time Yolanda saw Kara, she was walking east on
Hemlock Street. The school principal is going to call Kara's mother to let her know that she
was missing from school and then Kara's never going to show up to the house that
evening. Police instituted a community-wide search. Kara's mother, Janet, almost immediately suspected
Joseph Condro of abducting her daughter. She called him repeatedly. He called her
back returning her call. She picked up the phone, but for some reason her answering machine picked up and then
recorded a conversation in which she accuses him of abducting Kara. Everybody suspects that Kara went to the pig farm,
so police are going to make contact with the owner, Pete. Yeah, he said that he wasn't home during the time frame in
question and he also said he did not suspect that anyone visited his property while he was gone. Mhm. Because of
Yolanda's story about seeing Condro outside of the school police, like Janet, were suspicious. They questioned
him. He claimed to have an alibi, but there was no one to back up his alibi. In fact, there was at least one person
that came forward and said his alibi was false. Here's another case that we're missing a kid that knows Condro and he's
a suspect, but we have no body, we have no evidence, and we have a crappy alibi.
So, police start talking to everyone that knows Condro. They need to get a handle on this guy. They talk to his
ex-wife, Julie West, and they learn a good deal of info from her. One thing of importance, she said that the same day
that Kara went missing, she was in Joseph's car. When she went to move the seat back, she
saw a hairbrush under the seat. And she said that it looked like a hairbrush that would belong to a little girl.
So, she said that she later called Kara's mother and they talked about the brush. Her mother said Kara carried
around a hairbrush just like the one that she saw in Condro's car. So, Condro's ex-wife, Julie West, gets into
his car the day that Kara goes missing, sees a brush, talks to the mother. They confirm that it's possibly Kara's brush.
Now, she's going to go to police with this information. Yeah, and the weird thing here is uh
after she's done talking to the police she gets a call from Condro. He wants to know what she told police,
what is going on with the investigation, and what do the detectives know. Right.
Julie tells him very little. And then he threatens her with bodily harm, telling her she is not to talk to
the police again. Well, God bless Julie because she tells the detective about this phone call. And the detective goes
to the home of a judge to secure an arrest warrant for Joseph Condro. They arrest him that day for tampering
with a witness. They lock him up at the county jail, booked him on $25,000 bail.
And that amount soon doubled. Because the law was finally catching up to Condro, he's also arraigned on child
molestation and rape charges. This is from a completely different incident. And it was while he was sitting there in
jail waiting for trial on these different charges, that police are talking to everyone that knows Condro.
Yeah. They learn that he liked to hang out sometimes at a vacant decaying house on Mount Solo. This is just west of
Longview. On January 4th, 1997, less than 2 months after Cara's disappearance, police were searching a
remote wooded hillside at the Mount Solo area. They came upon a ravine and spotted a
rusted red Volkswagen with no tires or wheels. Inside the vehicle, they found Cara's
black Reebok shirt. This car was tipped up, so it's it's lying on its side. But underneath the
car, they find the body of a female with her head toward the rear and her feet beneath the passenger side door.
Officers used a winch to tip the car back up. And they brought out forensic technicians. They took all relevant
samples before cutting down a tree a nearby tree to remove the Volkswagen from the immediate scene and process it
further. The upper part of the torso was badly decomposed. And several of the ribs showed evidence
of animal predation. But the lower half of the body had been well preserved by being completely under
the car. Underpants and a pair of black shorts matching the description of what Cara
was wearing were on the body. After collecting samples in the immediate vicinity, the crime scene
techs loosened loosened the dirt under the corpse so that they could slip two body bags over it.
One from each end. They were taped together and sealed, and the body transported to the state crime
lab. Dental records confirmed the body is Cara's. The county coroner, Gary Greig, declared
that she died from homicidal violence by unknown means. Pieces of physical evidence including
all of the clothing found on and around the body were sent to an independent lab
in San Diego. Semen deposits on Cara's body and clothing tied Joseph Condro directly to
the murder. Now that they have evidence against Condro, he's already sitting in prison, but still looking at him for two
other crimes. So for 2 years, Condro refused to cooperate with investigators even though his DNA linked him to Cara's
body. But then the trial begins, and in a bombshell courtroom announcement, Condro
pled guilty to raping and strangling Cara and killing Rima Traxler 14 years earlier. In his confession, he said he
saw Rima when he was driving to a local store to buy beer and cigarettes. Joseph
said he took Rima to a swimming hole on Germany Creek in Longview and strangled her.
He claimed he buried her in a shallow grave near the location. He agreed to deal with prosecutors,
which allowed him to confess to murdering both Rima and Cara and avoiding the death penalty.
Investigators searched the area 1999, but were unable to locate any sign of Rima's body.
God bless murder victim Cara Rudd. Because of her courageous fight to live and the forensic evidence collected
because of that fight, her killer, Joseph Condro, was caught and the murder of Rima Traxler years earlier was
finally solved. When asked about Joseph Condro, the county prosecutor who participated
in the legal proceedings against Condro said, quote, "I have only twice in 25 years felt the presence of true evil.
When Condro and I would look at each other in the courtroom, it was a feeling that there was nothing there in those
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Captain, and cheers to the great John Douglas. Mhm. So, Mr. Douglas was kind enough to
sit down with us and discuss some of his expertise particularly in this case. And
if people don't know who John Douglas is, he's responsible for what? He's largely responsible for the what is
typically known as the Behavioral Science Unit at the FBI. Which has inspired movies like Silence of the
Lambs, the series Mindhunter, and many others. And just like so many times before, John Douglas went to the prison
and interviewed Joseph Condro. Put the lotion in the basket. All right, so it's time for your everybody to say
bye to me because I wasn't invited to the interview. Well, maybe next time, Captain. Now,
here's my interview with John Douglas. Regarding the Joseph Condro case, what can you tell us about the Mount Solo
area and why police were searching there and what they found? The area where where the where the disposal site uh you
know, occurred. Uh that's where they would find uh one of the victims uh in a um
you know, in a Volkswagen uh that he placed in uh placed in a in I think it was a a
conceal a good concealed area to dispose of the uh you know, of the body. And uh
Condro, as far as uh getting like into his history uh too, he was Well, when I did the interview with him,
it it was pretty much predictable that one day that he would be perpetrating crimes like the ones that he that he
did. He was he was abused as a child. Um he had alcoholic parents. He too uh an alcoholic.
Was a uh was a bully. What uh What was interesting with him was that as he grew older, he um stayed
fixated on on very very young children. He was fixated on them when he was young, but then as he grew older, he
just stayed fixated with you know with these young children. The the crimes that he perpetrated, they got him on
two. They think that he could have done as many as seven. I think that what makes the case so unusual
with him I I really didn't have I didn't understand it and I had asked him the question is you're killing your friends'
children. Why? I mean why are you killing your your friends' children? And he said it's just
you know it's just easy. He says by attacking strangers you have control control issues and cuz they'll fight
back. But by going after my friends' children, that I would not have that have that problem.
I said, "Yeah, but then you'd be an obvious obvious suspect, wouldn't you?" And he said, "I was a suspect, but they
never could come up with anything. Plus at the time, as far as post offense, what he would do is he would participate
in searches. He would console the parents of you know of the victims. So he may have been under suspicion, but
they really never they never looked at you know him you know hard until like obviously when he found the body.
And his only mistake is when they found the body and that hidden in the in the Volkswagen was that he didn't do a
better job of concealing the body and that he got caught. Nothing as far as remorse towards the victims or the
families of the victim is just that you know that he got caught. After months, prosecutors
offered Condro a deal so he could avoid the death penalty if he gave a full confession. Can you talk about his
confession and some of the details that he offered up? He was offered a deal to to escape the death penalty. Although
they they still believe that he was responsible for others and and even after they made the deal, they were
still trying to cuz he made a deal just on on the two. His MO you know was to obviously he's close you know close to
the the children. But the details in fact I I actually did this for MSNBC and they they really
didn't they cut out all the details of the crime itself. It's how he he he tricked one of the victims for example.
They had a code word uh and the family said, "Okay, now unless you say the word person says word
unicorn, that's going to be our password and that feel free to go with whomever is asking for that password."
Unfortunately, he knew what the password was and he picks up this the girl and he
says young child and he says he knows he's going to kill her. There's no doubt about it. As soon as you got into the
car, I'm going to to kill her. He takes her to this remote area. He goes through all the the details, the
specific details, the gory details of of how he was raped raped how he strangled the victim, tried to drown the
victim, how difficult it was to strangle. You know, he was telling John it takes a lot of body strength to kill
somebody through manual strangulation. And he said, "I didn't I didn't know that."
And then even after doing all that, he still decided to you know bash her her head in with a
you know with a a large a large branch. It was just kind of remarkable of that again it's the kind of emotionless
no no empathy the only time he showed some kind of some kind of emotional reaction was
really about himself and about his his own children, his upbringing. But like even with his own children, I
brought up the question. I said, "What if somebody would uh would go after your children?" And he
said, "Oh, you know, I would uh you know, I want them punished. I would you know I would kill them."
So so he's just coming from two different points of view. Anyway, and what he did too as as so many of them
will do is they use they don't always want to accept responsibility 100% so they'll blame
they'll they'll project it and project it on sometimes the victim, sometimes children's parents. You know, maybe
they're too too trusting. So I had a case in Florida where I was interviewing a rapist
and he was you know, telling me that I said, "Why did you pick this particular victim?" And he says, "Well, she was in
sitting on a bar stool in a diner at night time and it was obviously didn't have any underwear on. So she was she
was looking for it. So it's it's like her fault." You find this so much with people like Condro and and others. With
him and I knew I already knew the answer to it. It was really a crime of of power
where he never thought he had power. He felt in his life he was like like one grain of sand on a beach of
billions and billions of sands grains of sand and how can this inadequate nobody become a somebody and
and and so we had a lot of aggression and his how he can become a somebody, how he can retaliate you know, for his
poor upbringing and those in his mind who did him wrong was to retaliate by by killing you know, killing others. But
again he's the only only serial offender I've ever interviewed who attacked attacked his friends his
friends' children which was just so so bizarre. He's serving a life sentence and you went to interview him in prison
just like you've done with so many other killers. How do you prepare for these types of interviews? The preparation for
the interviews is very different than what you see on television and what and even in Mindhunter where they go into
the prison and they have a tape recorder on and taking notes. When when I do the interview, I go into
the police files first, the medical examiner's reports. I have all that. I look at the circumstances of how he was
apprehended, if he gave a confession. Did he volunteer the confession or was it or did they just kind of
you know, work them over for a period of of time. When I get to the prison itself, I then
go into the into review the police records, the file the files I should say in corrections what
that they have built up over the past years you know, on him. See if he how he's being analyzed and by
psychologists there. And so when I walk into the room, I will not have any any notes. I won't have
notes. I won't have tape recorders or anything anything like that because I I found early on when we did that when we
interviewed say Charles Manson Ed Kemper, we had a small tape recorder and it was a little cassette
and they were they didn't like that. They were very very paranoid. They live in a
and they should be paranoid like living where they are in a prison where you you
can't turn your back on someone they without fear of being being being knifed. They don't want to be perceived as a
snitch or anything like that. So by having a tape recorder or notes, they you know, what are you going to do with
this stuff? You know, you know, and and so finally I decided now this I have to go
in there. We had a 57-page protocol interview protocol that was developed with us and Dr. Ann Burgess at Boston
College. She in the show Mindhunter is the Wendy. But really in reality Ann was not a psychologist
telling us how to do the interviews. We knew that. She was helping us on the academic side developing the this
instrument. 57 pages, thousands of questions concerning the victim, victim selection
the subject, the pre-offense, post-offense behavior, all that stuff. So we would fill that out. That would be
pretty much good chunk of that would be filled out before going in and then the rest you'd
have to memorize and that all had to do with with the crime the crime and the the
offender. And the approach would be more conversational. It's not it's always positive. You may even give them
kind of some false hopes that you know, the the warden knows you're cooperating with us here. We're helping with your
doing is helping us who we're receiving cases from all over the world now and I and we're going to apply
what we've learned from you and others to these other cases seeing if there are in fact similarities that can cross over
into these other you know, other crimes. So you do you do that if you do it right, they don't want you to leave.
They don't want you you you begin to even tell them as you gain in experience. They want to know
about themselves. What do you think what made me tick? What what And then some of
them are are very arrogant very arrogant that uh bragging about the crimes that they did and that you
you know, that they're so good. Yeah, they made a mistake. They got caught, but that was it was a fluke. If I can go
off a little bit, I interviewed a an airplane skyjacker one time who was shot. He was shot at Kennedy Airport. He
skyjacked an airplane from uh LA to New York. He said, "John, you never could have
catch me if I was a fugitive. You have to cut off all contact with your families. Christmas time, we know
Christmas time, the holidays, FBI, police, you know, they're looking for mail and
and I said, "Well, we really we can't catch you?" No. I said, "Well, I'll just listen." His name is
Gary Trapnell and he wrote a book called The Fox Is Crazy, Too. And and he I said, "Gary, you went off on the deep
end crime wise when your when your dad died. Your dad was really a military hero. He he's buried at Arlington
Cemetery." And I actually went to his grave to and and saw where he was buried and he was
shocked that I had done that. So, now he's just looking at me. Now, you're telling me that we can't can't catch you
because you're just so swift, you know, you're a lot smarter than us. I said, "What if I told the FBI or police I said
at around the time of your uh around the holidays, Christmas holidays, uh and around your dad's birthday and the
date your dad died that we should search search set up a surveillance in Arlington Cemetery where your dad is
buried." As I'm saying that, I don't even complete the sentence. He starts shaking his head
side to side, smiling, and he says, "You got me." He I mean, he says, "You did it, right?"
I says, "Yeah." He says, you know, I I I did it. And so, those are the kind of things and and after a while you kind of
get good at you start you start seeing these patterns. So, the offender, they start asking you about
they want to know about you you know, themselves or how was I created and and why do you
think I did the things that that I did. So, I'll do that. But I'll also tell them about the crime
that I where I don't know anything about the crime other than I'm here to learn about, but I'll tell them about
themselves at around the time the crime was committed, the behavior leading up to
the crime, what was going on in their life, what they did after the after the crime. Based upon you can't do it on
every case, but it's based upon how that crime is interpreted interpreted you know, you know, by me
looking at it and reviewing, you know, all of the material. It's interesting. It's interesting for me, interesting
interesting as well for them. And I created by doing that then I created a criminal profiling and went from a
program to a major unit within the FBI that's still it's even growing today. It's even bigger than it was when when I
was in. What are you hoping to learn about the killer during these interviews? I'm
trying to learn the whys of the behavior. This is the formula I've used and I've mentioned in
this book and other books, why plus how equals who. Well, now we have the who in
this case it's it's not on sub case not on subject case. We got the guy. Why why
and hows of of the behavior behavior and see you know, is there anything that he's
can tell us that that I can apply to a another, you know, other cases. I mean, what he's telling
us for example, injecting himself into into the investigation or or participating in
searches. If you notice in the in the same book, the killer across the table, Joseph McGowan did the same thing. He
was school teacher when he killed a brownie, a Joan D'Alessandro. Uh so, we see see a pattern
you know, like that you know, as well. And so, a lot of these cases you go in and you kind of know
you're not expecting to get a whole lot of information out of them, but there may be a question like
just one question you just you need to know that could really help you. Give an example, uh Dennis Rader,
the BTK Strangler. Um he's not in this book. He's in another book I I did cuz I interviewed him. I did the cases over
the years from when he first killed in the '70s until in the '80s. He was apprehended in the '90s by I interviewed
him. Why he stopped for years at a time? You know, that's how I because in law enforcement we think, "Oh, the guy moved
to another area uh or he's incarcerated or he died." He just couldn't stop. No one can commit
the kind of crimes that the BTK was committing and just stop. What happened, Dennis? Why did you stop? He said, "One
day I came home from work early. It was lunchtime. I decided to put the victim's
clothing on." He would souvenir his mementos. He would keep the clothing of the victims. And he would cross-dress in
the victims and then he would put a plastic mask over his face and then he would draw in like lipstick and no
uh eyebrows nose and he would then reflect his image in a mirror. And sometimes he
would take pictures, you know, of himself. Well, on this one day guess what? He's married, has two children,
living in about 1,200 square foot house, little tiny house where he has all these
mementos and belongings of victims secreted hidden from the rest of the family. His wife walks in and and so,
"What the hell is this?" Scares the hell out of him and he says, "Well, I got this problem I
this cross-dressing." He didn't tell her that the clothing is from his victims and or
did she realize that she was married to the BTK Strangler. So, that he said, "John, that that scared the hell out of
me. I thought, you know, sure you know, that's you know, this may leak out or she may tell somebody you know,
goes and tells the police. So, he stopped for a couple years. And he and then once again he did it he went a
couple years, but then he did it again and and uh he's got caught for the second time and by his wife. His wife
almost left him left him and scared the daylights out of him. So, he did he did stop a couple of more years and
then went into hiding again and then the last time that would would create his apprehension and cause his apprehension
was that there was a lawyer who was writing a book book about the BTK Strangler. And
in his mind, I mean, his thinking is crazy. "If anyone's going to write a book, it's
going to be me," he says. "Well, who's going to How are you going to publish a book?" He says, "Well, I'm going to
write the book. I'm going to hide the book and who knows maybe 100 years from now they'll find it someplace where I'll
bury it and they'll realize I was the BTK the BTK you know, Strangler. So, this this
lawyer by writing that book spurred on Dennis Rader, the BTK Strangler and then he started communicating with not just
only the lawyer, but with the press as well as TV stations and then he made a flagrant error
when he the police he asked the police if he could if he sends a floppy disk uh to them
uh to prove that he's the BTK like pictures of evidence, things like that which would be evidence, but like
crime scene photos that he took. "Would you be able to to trace this back to him?" he asked. Of course, the police
said, "No." Well, he submits the floppy. They bring in computer guys and you really didn't
have to be much of an expert. As soon as they put it in a floppy disk and they see that Dennis Rader's name is
president of Christ Lutheran Church in Wichita Wichita, Kansas. How smart he thought he
was. He got caught by making the dumb mistake. But the point is going back to the interview, you go in and just you
know, wanting to ask just certain things that that people haven't figured out, but things that can and is there
anything we can learn to prevent prevent this from occurring? You know, maybe do
we see a trend in their backgrounds of I mean, what were they like as children? Were there were there red flags,
forensic flags as a young kid that maybe a school teacher could have picked up on anything like
that. And we started seeing that in these interviews, some flags such as animal cruelty. We saw a trend in that
in early as the early 1980s and it's not until just a year ago a year ago that now after all these years that the FBI
has a a category animal cruelty in the uniform crime report. So, every you and the
police fills out that the crimes in their cities, they uh they'll have that category because
they recognize that that that there is a often times a stepping stone from animal
cruelty to violent behavior. Did you find any animal cruelty in Condra's background? Yeah, Condra yeah, Condra
had animal cruelty in his background. I'm trying to think specifically what he did. They don't
always have it, but he there was some early on in in uh in his life with I think it was dogs or
cats and he was also a bully in school as well as in fact the other the other ones we interviewed as well in in this
particular book we found the uh animal cruelty in their background. I I speak at the SPCA in Canada last
couple years and they can investigate I have an investigative arm in their SPCA's.
They have seen links as well between this animal cruelty and this progression from
elementary school they note this. They follow it along and and sure enough start getting into
uh high school you start seeing crimes progress and and violent violent types of crimes progress.
Did he ask you what you thought made him a killer? It's like so in so many of them do. With
Condra it was it's the life. It's it you cannot say and I'll explain that with Condra that
Condra what you did is is not excusable. For for what you you have the ability to
make choices. But I can understand because how you were raised you were pretty much
abandoned neglected neglected as a as a child. You turned to alcohol at an early
age and again there was there was this uh cruelty in his mind toward him from family
schoolmates. So, so it was it was predictable that something like this would happen. Not that everyone's going
to grow up to be in his case a serial killer. But it depends on individually how this person responds. A person can
respond by internalize it and turn to alcohol, drugs. He did some of that, but some of them go so far as commit
suicide. Uh others may survive depending if they have a significant person comes in contact with
the with them, but it has to be early on in in their you know in their life. With
him, as he got older, you can't change him. You can't you can't rehabilitate at that point in time because and what I've
said is you you can't really rehabilitate someone who's really not habilitated you know to begin with. I
mean you're trying to get him back to when to what? I mean his whole life has been has been a
a hell in in their minds. And then the crimes that they committed I mean it's in their
way of thinking, they're justified. It's justified as poor me. It's it's always a
a poor me, not a poor victim. It's it's poor me. With Joseph Kondro, do you believe that an admitted child killer
could go from 1985 to 1996 without killing? No I No I don't. You have to look at
deep into the case, but to go that long with with Kondro, no there's others and and he hinted during the the interview
at first. He said, "You know I can't talk about other cases." But then I asked him during the interview, "Are
there are there other cases?" And he said, "Yes, there are other cases." And and I know that I've been the police
have been trying to solve them. You just can't turn it off. They used to say it was like burnout. There'd be a burnout
factor and no there isn't any you know any burnout because and and with sexually motivated crimes they
thought there was that that was the connection that it it's a sex crime. So they they'll be
this burnout person gets older. It's not true. It's not There may be sex involved in the case.
These are crimes of power and and anger and dominance and it's fueled by by fantasy and and most of them have
a early fantasy life of what they want to do if they have the opportunity for the committing of crime.
Dennis Rader had it, you know, Kondro had it too. And the fantasies are sometimes from an evidentiary standpoint
they may write out their their fantasies in books or they actually will draw drawings like Dennis Rader did of
of what he would how he would torture his victims. And the fantasy the fantasy is better than reality with
you know with them. Like Kondro, you know, like Rader, some of the others in the current
the current book because in fantasy everything works perfectly. They're they're the they're the
writer, the producer, the director and the actor and and they it's perfect. But in in reality when they perpetrate
the crime, they'll tell you this. Things didn't go you know as planned. I didn't
expect the victim to fight back as hard as the you know as she did or you know or he did. I didn't I didn't
expect I didn't realize what it would take this much strength to to manually strangle. I wasn't prepared
for the victim to start you know crying and sobbing begging for their life. I I wasn't prepared you know to hear you
know you know to hear that. So it it just never it's never as good as the fantasy. So therefore, if it's not as
good as the fantasy, they keep trying. They keep trying to perfect the crime and and reach a point where one day
it'll be just everything will be perfect because like Dennis Rader and and the other and other
ones too here here their real fantasy would be if they could have a a a victim whatever their victim
preference is captive and as a slave type of thing and do as they please with the do as they
please with the victim. You see it in the West Coast you had Lake and Ng. Your listeners will probably heard of them.
Lake and Ng and and we've had in this in this current book Todd Kohlhepp who's kept a victim
in a in a storage container for a period of two two months or so down in South Carolina. That's the scenario that
they're looking for. That that's what Dennis Rader really wanted to do. You know you know him
you know himself, but it never worked out it never worked out that way. You've been face to face with some of the most
notorious killers and just some real real life monsters. What in your opinion is the appropriate punishment for the
worst of the worst? For the worst of the worst where we're talking about we have
plenty of and a series of say a series of crimes or mass mass crime, mass murder things like
that. I have I I believe I and I eye for an eye on those types of cases, but it has to be
like you say the worst of the worst. When when I when Scott Glenn the actor came back to Quantico, I I I made him
listen to a tape that I had from two rapists out of uh California named Bittaker and Norris.
Scott Glenn was was living up in Idaho and he was you know he's didn't believe in
death penalty and uh I let him listen to the tapes because these two rapists were now
rehabilitated back into society which was a joke and their fantasy that unbeknownst to the to the people who
released them was to rape and murder teenagers for every year of a teenager's life. So they started at 13 and would go
up to 19 years of age and they killed I don't know about six five or six. And and what
was worst of the worst it was that they would torture the victims and audiotape the torturing.
And Bittaker's nickname was Pliers Bittaker. That's his nickname in prison when I interviewed him. And
by that he would they would use these different tools to torture and I could I couldn't I have a hard time listening to
it when I would train police and I only played it for really not that long for Scott Glenn who
got really emotionally so I I didn't believe in the death penalty, but I said I could see
where it can apply in a case like this cuz this is really you know you know horrific. So I feel strong
about that, but then since I've left the Bureau, I've helped free Amanda Knox. I was involved in that
case. I helped Damien Echols Jessie Baldwin Jessie MissKelly and Jason Baldwin in the West
Memphis 3 case where three eight-year-old boys were killed. They were falsely accused of killing them.
I've been involved with JonBenét Ramsey going into the case thinking there was a
good chance the Ramseys were responsible, but looking at the case, working, testifying
in the grand jury, they had nothing to do with you know with that case. They've been
you know re-victimized. So then I I see and I was just on a panel up in New York
two weeks ago with with Amanda Knox and Damien Echols and you know discussing you know their you know their cases. And
here these these people here unfortunately, there was no evidence. There was nothing forensically linking
either either of them to the to to the to the case. It was police using theories to drive the
investigation and when anytime there was any forensic evidence taking them away from their theory, they would ignore
that evidence. They would they would ignore it. And the theory like with Damien and even with Amanda Knox was
that this these were some kind of satanic murders. With Damien Echols it was the early 90s and people police
particularly were attending seminars on satanic murders. They had pictures of kids on on
milk boxes saying there's 50,000 kids are being abducted. We don't know where they are. You know they're like this is
sa you know making it sound like it's a satanic you know satanic you know murders. And the
same thing with with Amanda Knox with her her prosecutor was same thing was trying to to make this into this satanic
murder because he did this before in the Monster of Florence case where Douglas Preston the author he was
he was going to arrest Douglas Preston. He thought Douglas Preston was the Monster of Florence. So this is who she
was dealing dealing with. So then I see those cases and I I I get concerned. So you you better have more you better have
forensic evidence and you better not rely just on some jailhouse snitch or rely on eyewitness eyewitness testimony
which is uh is faulty. And then you got to watch even the collection and the collection
and preservation of evidence to make sure that was done you know correctly. And so I I really it if you're going to
use it. I mean I'm satisfied with with life without parole ever having parole. But unless unless that inmate kills a
guard then you got to execute him. If he he kills a guard in in the prison because you have to go in these prisons
to see how unruly they can be, how dangerous of a a position it is. And if a guy is in there or you know life in
prison. If he can't get the death sentence, I mean what's to stop him from killing a guard or killing another
another you know inmate. But it has to be held for just certain types of you know certain types of
you know of cases. But that but I I have questioned some of these some of since I retired from the Bureau,
I just wondered if when we got cases if the evidence was collected properly. If the medical examiner in fact was
certified or the person say forensic pathologist was certified and what I've seen since then cuz when I was
in the Bureau, I couldn't do cases for the defense and so we just can't do it. But now I I
just every once in a while I'll get a case, see a case, and and uh you know, sometimes you know,
they're they're guilty as sin, but other times you'll see and oh my god, this is
uh it's pretty bad. But, they're uh everyone's looking for DNA today. Well, DNA with the DNA will free him. Well,
not every case has DNA. You have you're having the CSI effect with the jurors uh
looking waiting for the DNA. Okay, what present the DNA? Well, there may not be you know, DNA. It may not be DNA to help
free somebody, you know, from prison who may be uh maybe wrongfully convicted. And so, it changed my attitude cuz I
when I first started, I said, "Ah, everyone I'm innocent." And I go, "Yeah, yeah, you're innocent." Everybody Yeah,
they're a prison full of innocent people. But, then you start seeing, you know, that uh
uh yeah, with certain certain cases, certain individuals, certain departments, you question you question
uh you know, the you question them uh if they've done really like a capable, credible, and you know,
honest job. What would you consider to be your most successful interview and why? It's they've all been everyone you
get a little bit different. Kemper was good and and Kemper was one of the earlier ones. And why and the reason
because he's so smart. Uh he has a 145 you know, IQ. So, so he he he he could be very introspective. And and is and
he's our our key He was very good. The one in this current book, Todd Kohlhepp, another
guy. I mean, uh who committed a very unusual uh crimes. He's he would retaliate against someone uh
to get even. And and and uh just don't cross his path or cross him up, he'll he'll come back and and and
he was very introspective. I had him write fill out the actually the 57-page form and he and he gave me that plus
plus a heck of a lot a lot more. And uh you just learned you can you just learn so much from him. Everyone gives you
something, but the best I mean, like Manson, he's all right, but you pretty well have a good handle on Manson when
you when you go in there, you know, and and you can see some of the antics he played with me. He did at
the George Spahn Ranch where George Spahn Ranch preaching to his followers, he sat up on a a rock,
whereas with me, he sits up on top of a chair. Uh or in some from the chair to a credenza. And you
let him do it. I he's 5 ft 2, I'm 6 ft 2, and and I I don't want to intimidate. I want to him to talk, you know, to talk
friendly. But, you're not going to you're not going to learn a whole lot, you know,
you know, from him. Uh maybe what you learn from him is the the charismatic personality that he
has. Whereas then you can see that passed over into other crimes similar such as Jim Jones in Guyana. The
charismatic personality or the Waco, Texas. And and so, you see that how you can have this charismatic, articulate
personality in his case kind of almost like a prophet, looked like a a prophet, plays a little bit of the guitar. But,
but really he was primarily interested in sex, drugs, and rock and roll. I mean, that was pretty much it. And he
had a lot of we call these gofer personalities. These young kids looking for s- something in life that they're that is
better than where they're coming from. Even though their families, majority of them were fairly well-off families, and
that's what they were rebelling against. And he just kind of simplifies life and
he he wasn't big on the use of drugs, but he would would uh administer drugs to everyone else, kind of orchestrate
things. And then what with women, he would have sex with the women, but then he would have the women uh
and he would script them like fantasizing like they were having sex with like their father. And he was like
this father this father you know, you know, image. So, you could So, you get you you get just experiencing his
personality. And and we interviewed some of the Manson family members, Squeaky Fromme, Sandra Good,
you know, Tex Watson we've interviewed interviewed you can see you can see these kind of
people how the these gofers how they can easily be yeah, you know, easily be be manipulated
uh you know, by someone who's uh criminally smart. You know, he's spent the majority of his life in prison. And
and here these kids are just coming from pretty much you know, upper class, middle class families.
And and can be easily uh manipulated and dominated by a guy like Manson. Do you think that Tex Watson was
trying to take over the leadership role from Charles Manson? I don't know. I don't know. We never got that, you know,
from him. You know, he certainly was one of the smart ones. He was a a smart, you know, kid at the time. And um that
never came across. Uh yeah, but but he too you know, you start wondering he as you probably know, he's a minister
at the in prison. And uh he's been on that for for years. What we found when you ask when you ask people, "What
if you had a the violent potentially violent people or the violent people, what jobs if you
could do it again would you like to have?" And they would like to be ministers and counselors and some type
in law enforcement, you know, like you know, psychological counselors. And and then when you think of it, these are
positions of power, uh you're you're listening to people's weaknesses, and and you can you can
really take advantage. You can take advantage of people like the we've seen people in those
businesses I just mentioned who have done exactly like that for real. And and so, here you
have and that's what makes them attractive. So, lo and behold, we got Tex Watson uh
minister. Of course, he's trying to get out of prison to be paroled. He should stay right where where he is
for the rest of his life. And you got David Berkowitz up in Well, he was Attica when I interviewed him, but
I'm not sure where he is now, but but he he's also uh one of these so-called ministers. But, you can see why. You can
see why he would be he was definitely looking for this power when he was perpetrating those crimes up in New
York. When I pulled out the New York Daily News and I showed him the Son of Sam terrorizes New York City.
I mean, his eyes blue eyes just kind of lit up and he's looking at me, then he looks at my partner who's doing the
interview with uh it was me back back and forth and and to see if, you know, we're not trying to pull the wool over
his eyes, you know, that 100 years uh David, everyone's going to know you. No one's going to know me, but
everyone's going to know you, the Son of Sam of New York City. And uh I just kind of he just kind of
you know, opened up. So, everyone you get a little bit something, but uh some a little bit
you know, some of the the the ones that are are fairly smart. Dennis Rader is not
smart. Dennis Rader was lucky. Uh he he wasn't really that uh you know, you know, that intelligent and
and he got caught making a dumb mistake. Sometimes they they get caught because they feel like they're invincible.
Uh they can do anything. And they're they're just so much smarter than police. And that's usually the the time
we catch them is when they they start doing whatever they're doing, the crimes they're committing maybe with more
frequency, but they're becoming more of a risk-taker. And then they that's unfortunately, we have to wait for that
time before they can be uh be identified. One thing I've always wanted to ask you about John, and this
is because I don't think that the general public has a great understanding of how important this is when you're
trying to profile a criminal. Could you explain to us how important victimology is when you're putting
together your criminal profile? It's a good good question on victimology and because why it's a good question, too,
is is because when police submit a case, often times they just kind of skim over
the background, you know, of the victim. They don't provide enough in you know, information
on the victim. Trying to give a give an example, a case a case comes in and uh they may
they may say, "Well, the girl is a woman yes she was promiscuous or something." Or
uh you know, what what what do you mean? I mean, what do you mean by that? Or what we have to have years ago years and
years ago when my dad mom were alive and I I was a kid, there was a show This Is
Your Life. And someone would come out behind screen and start talking about uh their life to to to the
and you're trying to you're supposed to guess who this person is. And when I ask
for police, I said tell police to do victimology. You have to find out everything about this victim. I want to
know I'm trying to figure out why this victim was a victim of a crime. Was it was it he or she a victim of
opportunity? Uh in the wrong place at the wrong time? Is there something that the victim was was involved with you
know, here that increased the the risk level? Um give an example. Uh say a woman's driving down a highway,
runs out of gasoline. Uh a trucker come by or someone in the car offers offers a ride, shows up missing
and they find her body. She's dead. So, we have we start off with a and it's a difficult case, by the way, to solve cuz
we we start off with a with a very low risk victim. She car breaks down, runs out of gas, whatever, goes with somebody
she doesn't know. She's increased the risk level and could become the victim of violent
crime. The body in all probability will be disposed outside leaving very little forensic evidence to
you know to work with. Plus it also shows the mobility you know of the of the offender.
In the area of rape for example cuz lots of people think all these serial murder
cases you do do every kind of case really every you could do assessments, you could do public corruption
assessments, police corruption, you could do arson bombings, product tampering, extortion.
You know kidnappings. In the area of rape they'll come back and they'll say you know the the victim was raped the
subject performed sodomy on the victim. What do you mean? What do you mean? It means something in every different
state. I don't know you know what you what you mean. For me and this is what I will tell them. For me to do an analysis
of your case I have to know three components of of the rape case. I don't have to know
the verbal, the sexual and the physical assault that took place with that victim. Verbally
what was the subject saying when he confronted the victim? What was he saying to the victim if at all during
the sex act? What did he say when he left the victim? Physically how much force did he use? Did he use just enough
force to control the victim or was he excessive in the the amount of force? And thirdly sexually what did he do
sexually to the victim and in what order did he do these things sexually to the victim? So you you combine it all now in
verbal, sexual, physical you get the script here now having that information able to
to now decide which type of rape typology we're dealing with because there are five rape
typologies and once we we have that information we can I'll give you we have an extreme
one extreme on the left would be a power reassurance rapist. He's generally someone who lives in the
neighborhood. He's the called power reassurance cuz he's asking the victim how his performance is. He
asking for reassurance that he's performing well. To way over on the other side the other
extreme on the right side we'll say is the sexual sadist. No matter what the victim says, no matter how cooperative
the victim will be just to get out of this this mess with this with this guy. He goes way beyond what's necessary the
torture, the physical, the language, threatens to kill her and come back together. You know so and in between are
all the other ones too. It's it's all centered around power and anger but but having the information we can
and we can also determine if the type of maybe prior criminal histories that they
would have whether or not this is a transient guy or whether or not this is a local type of
rapist. Generally the the first one I mentioned the power reassurance type is someone who is uh
is in the area, has familiarity with the often times if it's an indoor case and more times than not they're indoors with
the power reassurance is is familiar with the residence, may have been there to paint the the walls of the the apartment
or shampoo the carpets, fix plumbing or just do voyeuristic activities has does not want to go on calls so has this
familiarity so we can you can determine that but you got to have the information. You got to you
have to educate the police to get the right and more times than not they may not have
that. They don't have that and you have to go back. And so victimology victimology is is key. And victimology
too could be there's a product tampering at a say a major company. So victimology
is not so much the person but really the the company. Okay what's going on with the company? Why would there be product
tampering going on? What what's is there any trouble going on? Is there trouble with the unions? Is
trouble with any supervisors and and subordinates? Are pay cuts or layoffs or anything you know like that?
So so that that becomes your victim. Your your victim is is not a person now it's a
you know it's a building and from that we can come up with you know always we can come up with the
a direction for the investigation. Thank you John Douglas for being on our show. Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Take care now. Bye-bye now. Joseph Condro never expressed any remorse for his deeds and in fact he
vowed to kill again even behind prison walls. He hinted that there have been other victims but saw nothing to gain by
confessing. Quote if you hook up a meter to my emotions they're flatline. Condro
said in a prison interview. I don't know where my emotions are. I couldn't give a damn what anyone thinks.
Authorities also suspect Condro killed 8-year-old Shaila Silvernails of Kalama whose strangled nude body was found in a
creek bed a day after she vanished on her way to catch the school bus. Silvernails mother had dated Condro.
In another interview Condro said quote what I would like to see result from publication of my story. Condro said he
hoped to explain what happened to a good healthy kid and cause the reader to take
better care of their children. Look what I have taken he said. I took a whole community's children. In 2012 murderer
Joseph Condro who was serving a life sentence for killing two Longview girls died in the state prison at Walla Walla.
Condro died of liver disease due to hepatitis C. He was 52 years old. Kara Rudd's
grandfather said he was happy to learn of Condro's death adding quote he's burning in hell right now. I hope he
suffered. And to quote the captain quote he's a real piece of [ __ ] This week we are recommending The Killer
Across the Table by dare I say good friend of the show Garage Army member the great John Douglas. Check out The
Killer Across the Table Unlocking the Secrets of Serial Killers and Predators with the FBI's original mind hunter.
This fascinating and haunting expert account helps us understand why the most shocking homicides occur and you can
find that title as well as others at our website truecrimegarage.com on the recommended page. If you're
looking for more True Crime Garage to listen to or old episodes download the Stitcher app and check out our show off
the record on Stitcher Premium. Until next time everybody be good, be kind and don't litter.

Source: https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-atuip-b0924c

John Douglas - The Mind Hunter ////// 302 Part 1of 1 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com Today we discuss serial killer Joseph Kondro and talk to the man that interviewed him. Retired Special Agent John Douglas who pioneered criminal profiling joins the show. John walks us through the process for interviewing some of the most notorious killers of our time.

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Brief Summary

The episode details the abduction and murders of Rima Traxler and Kara Rudd, linked to suspect Joseph Condro, with insights from expert John Douglas.

Key points

The Disappearance of Rima Traxler. 8-year-old Rima Traxler goes missing after leaving school, never to be seen again.
The Search for Kara Rudd. 12-year-old Kara Rudd vanishes after a brief encounter with a familiar face.
Discovery of a Body. Police discover a body linked to the abduction of Kara Rudd.
Condro's Confession. Joseph Condro pleads guilty to multiple murders, revealing chilling details.
Interviewing a Serial Offender. The complexities of interviewing a serial killer and understanding their psyche.
The BTK Strangler's Mistake. Dennis Rader, the BTK Strangler, made a critical error that led to his capture.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

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1:24WatchMay 8, 2019

Tension

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