John Douglas - The Mind Hunter ////// 302 | Forensic Files

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Washington May 15th 1985 the school bell rings it's the end of the school day 8-year-old Rema
Traxler leaves on foot returning home from St Helen's Elementary School on the way she decides to stop at
a friend's house she wanted to show off an art project she made at school after a brief visit she continued
on her way walking towards her family's residence eyewitnesses observed her walking approximately two blocks from
her family's home Rema never arrived at her house that afternoon she has not been seen
again Rema was a smart little girl raised by a good mother who taught her the dangers of talking to
strangers little did she know pure evil was lurking close to home and just right
around the [Music] corner Rema was last seen walking home from school the third grader was about 4 3 in
tall and 45 lb she was a beautiful blue-eyed little girl with blonde hair that fell down to the middle of her back
she was wearing a pink shirt plaid tan skirt and white tights when Rema failed to come home her mother Danielle became
very worried Danielle walked to the school to retrace her daughter's steps she saw nothing that would alert her and
nothing that that could offer any clue as to where her daughter was when she returned home she called
The Long View police and reported her daughter missing with the announcement of her child's disappearance the police
and Community organized and conducted an intensive search for the little girl but
just like Danielle they didn't find Rema and they didn't find any clues despite no one coming forward saying that they
saw the little girl abducted police actually had Suspects one suspect was a friend of rema's stepfather the suspect
was 26-year-old Joseph condro investigators questioned him during their initial 1985 investigation but
there was no evidence linking Joseph to her case unfortunately Rema never returned and eventually the trail went
cold the case remained opened and unsolved then over a decade later on November 21st
1996 at 75 a.m. Larry Holden dropped off his niece and his fiance's daughter at school his niece is Yolanda Patterson
and his fiance's daughter is 12-year-old Cara Rudd after Larry drove off a 1982 Pontiac Firebird pulled up to the
sidewalk the driver is now 37-year-old Joseph condro both girls knew condro the girls actually lived together Larry has
custody of his niece and he lives with his fiance Janet Cara's mother Joseph condro stayed for a brief time at their
home so when condro pulled over in his car the girls came running over to talk to him Cara got in the car while Yolanda
stayed outside Joseph and Cara had some kind of conversation carara gets out of the car
and tells Yolanda that she wants to skip school and go out to Willow grve there's
a pig farm out there and she wants to play with the piglets Yol wants none of this because if she skipped school they
could get caught and then they would be in trouble Yolanda starts making her way
to the school building condro drives off the last time Yolanda saw Cara she was walking East on Hemlock Street the
school principal is going to call Cara's mother to let her know that she was missing from school and then Cara is
never going to show up to the house that evening police instituted a CommunityWide search Cara's mother Janet
almost immediately suspected Joseph condro of abducting her daughter she called him repeatedly he called her back
returning her call she picked up the phone but for some reason her answering machine picked up and then recorded a
conversation in which she accuses him of abducting Cara everybody suspects that Cara went to the pig farm so police are
going to make contact with the owner Pete yeah he said that he wasn't home during the time frame in question and he
also said he did not suspect that anyone visited his property while he was gone mhm because of Yolanda's story about
seeing condro outside of the school police like Janet were suspicious they questioned him he claimed to have an
alibi but there was no one to back up his Alibi in fact there was at least one person that came forward and said his
Alibi was false here's another case that we're missing a kid that knows condro and he's a suspect but we have no body
we have no evidence and we have a crappy alibi so police start talking to everyone that knows condro they need to
get a handle on this guy they talk to his ex-wife Julie West and they learn a good deal of info from her one thing of
importance she said that the same day that Cara went missing she was in Joseph's car when she went to move the
seat back she saw a hairbrush under the seat and she said that it looked like a hairbrush that would belong to a little
girl so she said that she later called Cara's mother and and they talked about the brush her mother said Cara carried
around a hairbrush just like the one that she saw in condro car so condo's ex-wife Julie Wes gets into his car the
day that Cara goes missing sees a brush talks to the mother they confirm that it's possibly Cara's brush now she's
going to go to police with this information yeah and the weird thing here is after she's done talking to the
police she gets a call from condro he wants to know what she told police what is going on with the investigation and
what do the detectives know right Julie tells him very little and then he threatens her with bodily harm telling
her she is not to talk to the police again well God bless Julie because she tells a detective about this phone call
and the detective goes to the home of a judge to secure an arrest warrant for Joseph condro they arrest him that day
for tampering with a witness they lock him up at the county jail booked him on $25,000 bail and that amount soon
doubled because the law was finally catching up to condro he's also arraigned on child molestation and rape
charges this is from a completely different incident and it was while he was sitting there in jail waiting for
trial on these different charges that police are talking to everyone that knows condro yeah they learned that he
liked to hang out sometimes at a vacant decaying house on Mount solo this is just west of Long View on January 4th
1997 less than two months after Cara's disappearance police were searching a remote wooded Hillside at the mount solo
area They Came Upon A Ravine and spotted a rusted red Volkswagen with no tires or
Wheels inside the vehicle they found Cara's black Reebok shirt this car was tipped up so it's it's lying on its side
but underneath the car they find the body of a female fale with her head toward the rear and her feet beneath the
passenger side door officers used a wench to tip the car back up and they brought out forensic technicians they
took all relevant samples before cutting down a tree a nearby tree to remove the
Volkswagen from the immediate scene and process it further the upper part of the
Torso was badly decomposed and several of the ribs showed evidence of animal predation but the lower half of the body
had been well preserved by being completely under the car Underpants and a pair of black shorts matching the
description of what Cara was wearing were on the body after collecting samples in the immediate vicinity the
crime scene text loosen loosen the dirt under the corpse so that they could slip
two body bags over it one from each end they were taped together and sealed and the body transported to the State Crime
Lab dental records confirmed the body is carried the County coroner Gary Greg declared
that she died from homicidal Violence by unknown means pieces of physical evidence
including all of the clothing found on and around the body were sent to an independent lab in San Diego Sean
deposits on Cara's body and clothing tied Joseph condro directly to the murder now that they have evidence
against condro he's already sitting in prison they're still looking at him for two other crimes so for two years condra
refused to cooperate with investigators even though his DNA linked him to Cara's
body but then the trial begins and in a bombshell courtroom announcement condro pled guilty to raping and strangling
Cara and killing Rema Traxler 14 years earlier in his confession he said he saw Rema when he was driving to a local
store to buy beer and cigarettes Joseph said he took Rema to a swimming hole on Germany Creek in Long View and strangled
her he claimed he buried her in a shallow grave near the location he agreed to deal with prosecutors which
allowed him to confess to murdering both Rema and Cara and avoiding the death penalty investigators searched the area
in 1999 but were unable to locate any sign of rema's body God bless murder victim Cara Rudd because of her
courageous fight to live and the forensic evidence collected because of that fight her killer Joseph condra was
caught and the murder of Rema Traxler years earlier was finally solved when asked about Joseph condro the County
prosecutor who participated in the legal proceedings against condro said quote I
have only twice in 25 years felt the presence of true evil when condro and I would look at each other in the
courtroom it was a feeling that there was nothing there in those eyes I just never got any shred of humanity from
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[Music] today all right cheers mates and make sure you go to the website true Crim
garage.com we have three different tank tops that are available for pre-order right now so check those out cheers to
you captain and cheers to the great John Douglas mm so Mr Douglas was kind enough to sit down with us and
discuss some of his expertise particularly in this case and if people don't know who John Douglas is he's
responsible for what he's largely responsible for the what is typically known as the Behavioral Science unit at
the FBI which has inspired movies like Silence of the Lambs the series mind Hunter and many others and just like so
many many times before John Douglas went to the prison and interviewed Joseph condro put the lotion in the basket all
right so it's time for everybody to say bye to me because I wasn't invited to the interview well maybe next time
captain now here's my interview with John [Music] [Music] Douglas regarding the Joseph condro case
what can you tell us about the mount solo area and why police were searching there and what they found the area where
where the where the disposal site you know occurred uh that's where they would find uh one of the victims uh in a um
you know in Volkswagen uh that he placed in uh placed in I think it was a a concealed a good concealed area to
dispose of the uh you know of the body and uh kro as far as uh getting like into his history uh too he
was when I did the interview with him it it was pretty much predictable that one
day that he would be perpetrating crimes uh like the ones that he that he did he
was he was abused as a child um he had alcoholic parents he two uh an alcoholic was a uh was a bully what uh
was interesting with him was that as he Grew Older he U stayed fixated on on very very young children he was fixated
on him when he was young but then as he Grew Older he just stayed fixated with you know with these young children the
the crimes that he perpetrated they got him on two they think that he could have
done as many as seven I think that what makes the case so unusual with him I I really didn't have I didn't understand
it and had ask him the question is you're killing your friend's children why I mean why are you killing your your
friend's children and he said it's just uh you know it's just easy he says by attacking strangers you have control uh
control issues and cuz they'll fight back but by going after my friend's children that uh I would not have that
have that problem I said yeah but then you'd be an obvious uh obvious suspect wouldn't you and he said I was a suspect
but they they never could come up with anything Plus at the time far as post defense what he would do he would
participate in searches he would console the parents of uh you know of the victim so he may have
been under suspicion but they really never they never looked at you know him you know hard until like obviously when
he found the body and his only mistake is when they found the body in that hidden in the in the Volkswagen was that
he he didn't do a better job of concealing the body and that he got caught nothing as far as remorse towards
the victims or the families of the victim is just that uh you know that he got caught after months prosecutors
offered condro a deal so he could avoid the death penalty if he gave a full confession can you talk about his
confession and some of the details that he offered up he was offered a deal to to escape the death penalty although
they they still believed that he was responsible for others and and even after they made the deal they were still
trying to cuz he made a deal just on on the two hiso you know was to obviously he's close you know close to the uh you
the children but the details in fact I I actually did uh this uh for MSNBC and they they really didn't they cut out all
the details of the crime itself is how he he he tricked uh one of the victims for example they had a code word uh and
the family said okay now um unless you say the word person says the word unicorn that's going to be our our our
password that feel free to go with whomever is asking for that password unfortunately he knew what the
password was and he picks up this uh the girl and he said young child and he says
he knows you know he's going to kill her there's no doubt about her as soon as she got into the car I'm going to to
kill her he takes her to this remote area he goes through all the the details the spefic specific details the Gory
details of of how he he was raped raped the victim how he uh strangled the victim trying to drown the victim how
difficult it was to strangle you know he's telling John it takes a lot of body strength to kill somebody through manual
strangulation and he said I didn't I didn't uh know that and then even after doing all that he still decided to you
know bash her her head in with a u you know with a a large a large branch it was just kind of remarkable that again
it it's the kind of emotionalist uh uh no no empathy uh the only time he showed some kind of some kind of emotional
reaction was really about himself and about his his own children his upbringing but like even with his own
children I brought up the question I said what if somebody would uh would go after your children and he said you know
I would uh you know I want them punished I I would you know I would kill him so so he's just coming from two different
points of view and and what he did too as as so many of them will do is they use they don't always want to accept
responsibility 100% so they'll blame they they'll project it and projected on sometimes the victim sometimes
children's parents you know maybe they're too too trusting I had a case in Florida where I was interviewing a
rapist and he was you know telling me that that um I said why did you pick this particular victim and he well she
was in sitting on a bar stool in a diner at night time and was obviously didn't have any underwear on so she was know
she was looking for it you know it's it's like her fault you find this so much with people like condro and others
with him and I KN I already knew the answer to it it was really a crime of of power where he never thought he had
power that he he felt in his life he was like U like one grain of sand on a beach
of billions and billions of Sands uh and grains of sand and how could this inadequate nobody become a somebody and
and and so he had a lot of this aggression in his how he become a somebody how he can retaliate you know
for his poor upbringing and those in his mind who did him wrong was to retaliate
by by killing you know killing others but again he's the only only uh serial offender I've ever interviewed who
attacked attacked uh his friends his friend's children which was just so so bizarre he's serving a life sentence and
you went to interview him in prison just like you've done with so many other Killers how do you prepare for these
types of interviews the preparation for the interviews is very different than what you see on television and what and
even in a mind Hunter where they go into the prison and uh they have a tape recorder on and taking notes when when I
do the interview I go into the police files first the medical examiner reports I have all that I I look at the
circumstances of how he was apprehended if he gave a confession did he volunteer
the confession or was it or they just kind of you know worked them over for a period of of time uh when I get to the
prison itself I then go into the into review the police records the file the files I should say in corrections but
that they have built up over the past years you know on him see if he how he's being analyzed and by psychologist you
know there and so when I walk into to the room I will not have any any notes I won't have notes I won't have tape
recorders anything anything like that because I I found early on when we did that when we interviewed say uh Charles
banson Ed keer we had a small tape recorder and was a little cassette and they were they didn't like that they
were very very paranoid uh they live in a and they should be paranoid living where they are in a prison where you
can't turn your back on someone without fear of being being uh being knifed they
don't want to be perceived as a snitch or anything like that so by having a tape recorder or notes they you know
what are you going to do with this stuff you know you know and so finally I decided no this I have to go in there we
had a 57 page protocol interview protocol that was developed by uh with us and Dr Anne Burgess at Boston College
she in the show mind Hunter is the Wendy but really in reality an was not a psychologist telling us how to do the
interviews we knew that she was helping us on the academic side developing the this instrument 57 Pages thousands of
questions concerning the victim victim selection uh the subject the pre- offense post offense Behavior all that
stuff so we would fill that out that would be pretty much a good chunk of that would be filled out before going in
and then the rest you'd have to memorize and that all had to do with with uh the
crime the crime and the the uh offender and the approach would be more conversational it's not it's always
positive you may even give them kind of some false hopes that you know that the ward knows you're cooperating with us
here we're helping what you're doing is helping us who we're receiving cases from all over the world now and and
we're going to apply what we learn from you and others to these other cases seeing if there are in fact the
similarities that can cross over into these other you know other crimes so you do you do that if you do it right they
they don't want you to leave they don't want you uh you you begin to even tell them as you gain an experience they want
to know about themselves what do you think what made me tick what what and then some of them are are very arrogant
uh very arrogant that uh bragging about how the crimes that they did and that you you know that they're so good uh
yeah they made a mistake they got caught but that was it was a fluke if I can go
off a little bit I interviewed a an airplane Skyjacker one time who was shot uh he was shot at Kennedy Airport he
skyjacked an air airplane from uh LA to New York he said John you never could couldn't catch me if I was a fugitive
you have to cut off all contact with your families Christmas time we know Christmas time the holidays FBI police
you know they looking for mail and and I said well we really we can't catch you no I said well just listen his name was
Gary Trapnell and he wrote a book called The Fox is crazy too and and he uh I said Gary you went off on a Deep End
crime wise when your when your dad died your dad was really a military hero he he's buried at Arlington Cemetery and I
I actually went to his grave to and and saw where he was buried and he was shocked that I had done that so now he's
just looking at me now you're telling me that we can't uh can't catch you because
you're just so Swift you know you're a lot smarter than us I said what if I told the FBI or police I said at around
the time of your uh around the holidays Christmas holidays uh and around your dad's birthday and the date your dad
died that we should search uh set up a surveillance uh in Arlington Cemetery where your dad is buried as I'm saying
that I don't even complete the sentence he starts shaking his head side to side smiling and he says you got me and he
says you did it right and he says yeah he says you know I I did it and so those are the kind of things and and after a
while you kind of get good at you start you start seeing these patterns so the offender they start asking you about
they want to know about you know you know themselves or how was I created and and why do you think I did the things
that uh that I did so I'll do that but I'll also tell them about the crime that I where I don't know anything about the
crime other than I'm here to learn about but I'll tell them about themselves at at around the time the crime was
committed the behavior leading up to the crime what was going on in their life what they did after the after the crime
based upon you can't do it on every case but it's based upon how that crime is interpreted interpreted you know you
know by me looking at it and reviewing you know all of the material it's interesting it's interesting for me
interesting interesting as well for them and uh that created by doing that they end up creating a criminal profiling
went from a program to a major unit within the FBI that's still it's even grown today it's even Bigg than it was
when I was in what are you hoping to learn about the killer during these interviews I'm trying to learn the wise
of the behavior this the formula I've used and I've mentioned in this book and other books why plus how equals who well
now we have the who in this case it's not on subcase on on subject case we got the guy why why and how of of the behav
behavior and see you know is there anything that he's can tell us that uh that I can apply to another you know
other cases I mean what he's telling us for example injecting himself into into the uh like investigation or
participating in searches if you notice in the in the same book The Killer across the table Joseph mowan did the
same thing he was school teacher when he killed a brownie a Joan delandro So we see see a pattern uh you know like that
uh you know as well and so a lot of these cases you go and and you kind of know you're not expecting to get a whole
lot of information out of him but there may be a question like just one question
you just you need to know that could really help you give an example uh Dennis Raider the BTK Strangler um he's
on in this book he's in another book I I did because I interviewed him and I did
the cases over the years from when he first killed in the 70s until 80 in the 80s he was apprehended in the 90s by I
interviewed him I wanted to know why he stopped for years at a time you know that's because in law enforcement we
think oh the guy moved to another area uh or he's incarcerated or he died he just couldn't stop no one can commit the
kind of crimes that the BTK was committing and just stopped what happened Dennis why did you stop he said
one day I came home from work early it was lunchtime I decided to put the victim's clothing on he would souvenirs
and momentos he would keep the clothing of the victims and he would crossdressing the victims and then he
would put a plastic mask over his face and then he would draw in like lipstick and no uh uh eyebrows the nose and he
would then reflect his image in a mirror and sometimes he would take pictures you
know of himself well on this one day guess what he's married has two children living in about 1200t house little tiny
house but he has all the m and belongings of victims secreted hidden from the rest of the family his wife
walks in on him and so what the hell is this scares the hell out of him and he says well I got this problem I this
crossdressing he didn't tell her that the clothing is from his victims nor did she realize that she was married to the
BTK Strangler so that he said John that that scared the hell out of me I thought
you know for sure uh you know that you know this may leak out or she may tell somebody who then goes and tells the
police so he stopped for a couple of years and and then once again he did it he went a couple years but then he did
it again and and uh his got caught for the second time by his wife his wife almost let him left him and scared the
Daylights out of him so he did he did stop a couple of more years and then went into hiding again and then the last
time that would create his apprehension and caus his apprehension was that there
was a lawyer who was writing a a um a book about the BTK Strangler and in his mind I mean the thinking is crazy if
anyone's going to write a book it's good to be me he says well who's going how you going to publish a book he says well
I'm going to write the book I'm going to hide the book and who knows maybe 100 years from now they'll find it someplace
where I'll bury it and they'll realize I was the BTK the BTK uh you know Strangler so this this um lawyer by
writing that book spurred on um Dennis raid to the BTK Str wrer and then he started communicating with not just only
the lawyer but with the press as well as um TV stations and then he made a uh flagrant error when the police uh he
asked the police if he could uh If he if he sends a floppy disc uh to them uh to
prove that he's the BTK uh like pictures of evidence things like that which would
be evidence but like crime scene photos that he took would you be able to to trace back to him he asked and of course
the police said no well he submits the floppy they bring in computer guys and you really need didn't have to be much
of an expert as soon as they put it in a floppy disc in they see that uh Dennis Raider name is a president of Christ
Lutheran Church in Witchita uh Witchita Kansas how smart he thought he was uh he
got caught by making a dumb mistake but the point is going back to the interview
you go in and just you know wanting to ask just certain things that see that pretty well haven't figured out but
things can and is there anything we can learn to prevent prevent this from occurring you know maybe do we see a
trend in their backgrounds of I mean what would they like as children were their were their red flags forensic
flags as a young kid that maybe a school teacher could have picked up on or anything like that and we started seeing
that in these interviews some Flags such as animal cruelty we saw a trend in that
and it early is the early 1980s and it's not until just a year ago ago a year ago
that now after all these years that the FBI has a a category animal cruelty in the Uniform Crime Report so every you
when the police fills out that there were crimes in their cities they uh they'll have that category because they
recognize that that that there is a a often times a stepping stone from animal cruelty to Violent Behavior did you find
any animal cruelty in cra's background yeah condro yeah condra had animal cruel in his background I'm trying to think
specifically what he did they don't always have it but but he there was some early on in in uh in his life with I
think dogs or cats and he was also a bully in school as well as in fact the other the other ones we interviewed as
well in in this particular book we found the animal cruelty in their background I
I speak at the SPCA in Canada last couple years and they can investigate they have an investigative arm and
they're SP SPCA they have seen links as well between this animal cruelty and this progression from elementary school
they note this they follow it along and and sure enough start getting into uh the high school you start seeing crimes
progress and and violent violent types of crimes progress did he ask you what you thought made him a killer it's like
so and so many of them do with conro it was it's the life it's you cannot say and like same thing with condro that
condro what you did is is non excusable for for but you you have the ability to make choices but I can understand
because how you raised you pretty much abandoned neglected neglected as a as a child he turned to alcohol at an early
age uh and again there was there was this uh cruelty in his mind toward him from family schoolmates so so it was it
was predictable that something like this would happen not that everyone's going to grow up to be in his case a serial
killer but it depends on individually how this person responds the person can respond by internalizing it and turn to
alcohol drugs he did some of that but some of them go so far as commit suicide Others May survive depending if
they have a significant person comes in contact with the with them but it has to
be early on in their you know in their life with him as he got older you can't change him you can't you can't
rehabilitate at that point in time because and what I've said is you can't really rehabilitate someone who's really
not habilitated you know to begin with I mean trying to get him back to when to what uh I mean his whole life has been
has been uh a Hell in in their minds and then the crimes that they committed I mean it's in their the way of thinking
they're Justified it's Justified as poor me it's po it's always a poor me not the
poor victim it's poor me with Joseph condro do you believe that an admitted child killer could go from 1985 to 1996
without killing no no I don't you have to look deep into the case but to go that long let's say with condro no
there's others and and he hinted during the the interview at first he said you know I can't talk about other cases but
then I asked him the interview are there are there other cases and he said yes there are other cases and and I know
that and the police would been trying to solve them you just can't turn it off they used to say it was like burnout
there'd be a burnout factor and uh no there isn't any you know any burnout because and and with sexually motivated
crimes they thought there was uh that that was the connection that is a sex crime so they they'll be this burnout
the person gets older it's not true it's not there may be sex involved in the case
these are crimes of power and and anger and dominance and it's fueled by by fantasy and most of them have a a early
Fantasy Life of what they want to do if they have the opportunity uh for to committing a crime to U Dennis Raider
had it you know KRA had it too and the fantasies are sometimes from an evidentiary standpoint uh they may write
out uh their fantasies in books or they actually will draw drawings like Dennis Raider did of um of what he would how he
would torture his victims and the fantasy the fantasy is better than reality with uh you know with them uh
like condro you like Raider like some of the others and the current uh the current book because in fantasy
everything works perfectly they're they're the they're the the writer the producer the director uh and uh the
actor and and they it's perfect but in in the reality when they perpetrate the crime and I'll tell you
this things didn't go you know as planned I didn't expect the victim to fight back as hard as the uh you know as
she did or you know or he did I didn't I didn't expect I didn't realize what it would take this much strength to uh to
manually strangle I wasn't prepared for the victim to start you know crying and sobbing begging for the life I that I I
wasn't prepared you know to hear you know you know to hear that so it it just never it's never as good as the fantasy
so therefore if it's not as good as the fantasy they keep trying they keep trying to perfect the crime and and
reach a point where one day it'll be just everything will be perfect uh because like Dennis Raider and so and
the other and other ones too here here their real fantasy would be if they could have a a a victim whatever their
victim preference is captive and as a slave slave type of thing and do as they please with the do as they please with
the victim you see it on the West Coast you had lak and in you listeners will probably heard of them lening and and
we've had uh in this in this uh current book Cod Kap who's kept the victim uh in
a in a storage container for a period of two two months or so down in South Carolina that's the scenario that
they're looking for that that's what Dennis Raider really wanted to do uh you know you know him you know himself but
uh it never worked out uh it never worked out that way you've been face to face with some of the most notorious
killers and just some real real life monsters what in your opinion is the appropriate punishment for the worst of
the worst for the worst of the worst we're where we're talking about we have plenty of and a series of I say a series
of crimes or mass mass crime mass murders things like that I I I believe I an i eye for an eye on those types of uh
cases but it has to be like you say the worst of the worst when when I when Scot
Glen the actor came back to quanico I I I made him listen to a tape that I had from two rapist out of uh California
named biter and Norris go Glen was living up in Idaho and he was you know he's didn't believe in you know death
penalty and um I let him listen to the tapes because these two rapists were now rehabilitated back into society which
was a joke and their fantasy that unbeknownst to the to the people who released them was to rape and murder
teenagers for every year of a teenager's life so they started at 13 would go up to 19 years of age and they killed I
think it about six five or six and and what uh was worse of the worse was that they would torture the victims and audio
tape the torturing and bier's nickname was pliers Bier that's his nickname in prism when I interviewed him and uh uh
by that he would they would use these different tools to torture and I could I couldn't I have a hard time listening to
it when I would train police and I only played it for really not that long for Scott Glenn who got real emotionally s i
I didn't believe in the death panal but I said I could see where it can apply in
a case like this cuz this is really you know you know horrific uh so I feel strong about that but then since I've
left the bureau I've helped free uh Amanda Knox I was involved in that case I helped uh uh Damien Eckles Jesse
Baldwin uh Jesse Miss Kelly and Jason Baldwin in the west Memphis 3 case where three 8-year-old boys were killed they
were falsely accused of killing them I've been involved with Johnny Ramsey going into the case thinking there's a
good chance the ramies were responsible but looking at the case working testifying uh in the grand jury they had
nothing to do with the you know with that uh case they've been re you know revictimized so then I I see and I was
just on a paddle up in New York two weeks ago with with Amanda Knox and Damen Eckles you know discussing you
know their you know their cases and here these these people here unfortunately there was no evidence there was nothing
forensically linking either either of them to the to to the uh to the case it was police using theories to drive the
investigation and when anytime there was any forensic evidence taking of them away from their Theory they would ignore
that evidence they would they would ignore it and the theory like with Damon and even with Amanda Knox was that these
were some kind of sat anic murders with Daman Eckles it was in the early 90s and
people police particularly uh were attending seminars on satanic murders they had pictures of kids on me on um
milk boxes saying there's 50,000 kids are being abducted we don't know where they are you know they're like this you
know you know making it sound like it's a satanic you know satanic uh you know murders and the same thing with with
Amanda Knox with her her prosecutor same thing was trying to make this s satanic
murder because he did this before in the monster Florence case where Douglas Preston the author he uh he was going to
arrest Douglas Preston he thought Douglas Preston was the monster of Florence so this is who she was dealing
dealing with so then I see those cases and I I I get concerned so you you better have more you better have
forensic evidence and you better not rely just on some jailhouse snitch or rely on on uh eyewitness eyewitness uh
testimony uh which is uh is faulty and then you got to watch even the collection and the collection and
preservation of evidence to make sure that was done you know correctly and so I really it if you're could to use it I
mean I'm satisfied with with life without parole ever having parole uh but unless unless that inmate kills a guard
then you got to execute him if he kills a guard and and prison because you have to go in these prisons to see how R
unruly they can be how dangerous of a position it is and if a guy is in there or you know life in prison if he can't
get the death sentence I mean what's to stop him from killing a guard or killing
another another uh you know inmate but it it has to be help for just certain types of you know certain types of uh
you know of cases uh but not uh yeah but I I have question some of these some since I retired from the bureau I just
wondered if when we got cases if the evidence was collected properly if the medical examiner in fact was uh
certified the I should say forensic pathologist was certified and what I've seen since then because when I was in
the bureau I couldn't do cases for the defense uh and so we just can't do it but now every once in a while I'll get a
case see a case and and uh you know sometimes no they they're guilty of sin but other times you'll see and oh my God
this is uh it's pretty bad but there uh everyone's looking for DNA today well DNA with the DNA will free well not
every case has DNA you you're having the CSI effect with with jurors uh looking waiting for the DNA okay present the DNA
well there may not be you know DNA it may not be DNA to help free somebody you know from prison who may be uh may be
wrongfully convicted and so changed my attitude cuz I I when I first started I said oh yeah everyone I'm innocent oh
yeah yeah you're innocent everybody you got a prison full of innocent people but
then you start seeing you know that um uh with certain indiv certain cases certain individuals certain departments
you question you question uh you know the uh you question them uh if they've done really a a capable credible and you
know honest job what would you considered to be your most successful interview and why they' all everyone you
get a little bit different keer was good Ed keer was one of the earlier ones and
why and the reason because he's so smart uh he has 145 you know IQ so so he he he
could be very introspective and and he's and he's articulate he was very good the
one in this current book Todd Kap another guy I mean who committed very unusual uh
crimes he would retaliate against someone uh to get even and and uh just don't cross his path or cross him up
he'll he'll come back and and and and he was very int introspective I had him right fill out actually the 57 page form
and he and he gave me that plus plus heck of a lot a lot more and uh you just learned you can you just learned so much
from him everyone gives you something but of the best I mean like Manson he's all right but you pretty well have a
good handle on Manson when you when you go in there you know and you can see some of the Antics he played with me he
did at the George span Ranch where he George span Ranch preaching to his followers he sat
up on a a rock whereas with me he sits up on top of a chair or in from the chair to a Kenza and you let him do it
he's 5'2 I'm 6'2 and and I I don't want to intimidate I want him to talk you know to talk friendly but you're not
going to you're not going to learn a whole lot you know you know from him uh maybe what you learn from him is is the
the charismatic personality that he has where then you can see that passed over into other crimes similar such as Jim
Jones in Guana the charismatic personality or or the Waco Texas and and so you see
that how you can have this charismatic articulate person now um in his case kind of almost like a a prophet look
like a a prophet plays a little bit of the guitar but but really he was primarily interested in sex drugs and
rock and roll I mean that was pretty much it and he had a lot of the we call these gopher
personalities these young kids looking for something in life that they're that is better than where they're coming
from even though their families majority of them were fairly well off families and that's where they were rebelling
against and he just kind of simplifies life and he he wasn't big on the use of drugs but he would would uh administer
drugs to everyone else kind of orchestrate things and then with women he would have sex with the women but
then he would have the women uh then he would script them like fantasizing like they having sex with like their father
and he was like this father this father you know you know image so you so you get you just experiencing his
personality and and we interviewed some of the Manson family members Squeaky from Sandra good uh you know Tex Watson
we interviewed interviewed you can see you can see these kind of people how these Gophers how they can easily be you
know easily be be manipulated uh you know by someone who's criminally smart uh you know he
spent the majority of his life in prison and uh and here these kids are just coming from pretty much you upper class
middle class families and and could be easily uh uh manipulated and dominated by a guy like
Manson do you think that teex Watson was trying to take over the leadership role
from Charles Manson I don't know I don't we never got that you know from him you
know he certainly was one of the Smart Ones he was a smart you know kid at the time and uh that never came
across yeah but but he too you start wondering he as you probably know he's a minister at in
prison uh he's been on that for for years what we found when you ask when you ask people what if you had the
violent potentially violent people or the violent people what jobs if you could do it again would you like to have
and they would like to be ministers and counselors and uh of some type and law enforcement you know like you know
psychological counselors and and when you think of it these are positions of uh Power uh you're you're listening to
people's weaknesses and and you can you can really take advantage you can take advantage of people uh like that we've
seen people in those businesses I just mentioned who have done exactly like that for real and and so here you have
and that's what makes them attractive so lo and behold we got Tex Watson uh minister of course he's trying to get
out of prison too be pared he should stay right where where he is for the rest of his life and you got David
burkit up in uh well he was Attica when I interviewed him but I'm not sure where
he is now but but he he's also one of these so-called ministers but you can see why you can see why he would be he
was definitely looking for this power when he was perpetrating those crimes up in New York when I pulled out the New
York daily news and I showed him that Son of Sam terrorizes New York City I me his eyes blue eyes just kind of lit up
and he's looking at me and he looks at my partner who was doing the interview you with May back back and forth and and
to see if you know we're not trying to pull the wool over his eyes you know that 100 years uh David everyone's going
to know you no one's going to know me but everyone's going to know you the Son of Sam of New York City and uh I just
kind of he just kind of you know opened up so everyone you get a little bit something but uh some a little bit some
of the the ones that are are fairly smart Dennis Raider is not smart Dennis Raider was lucky uh he he wasn't really
that uh you know that intelligent and and he got caught making a dumb mistake sometimes they they get caught because
they feel like they're Invincible uh they can do anything and they're just so much smarter than police and that's
usually the the time we catch them is when they they start doing whatever they're doing the crimes they committing
maybe with more frequency but they becoming more of a risk taker and then they that's unfortunately we have to
wait for that time before they can be uh be identified one thing I've always wanted to ask you about John and this is
because I don't think that the general public has a great understanding of how important this is when you're trying to
profile a criminal could you explain to us how important victimology is when you're putting together your criminal
profile that's a good good question on vict victimology and because and why it's a good question too is is because
when police submit a case often times they just kind of skim over the background you know of the victim you
don't provide enough in you know information uh on the victim I'm trying to give a give an example a c a case
comes in and uh they may they may say well the girl the woman you she was promiscuous or something or uh you know
what what do you mean I mean what do you mean by that or what we have to have years ago years and years ago I know my
dad mom were alive and I as a kid there was a show this is your life and someone
would come out behind the screen and start talking about their life to to to the uh and
you're trying to you're supposed to guess who this person is and when I ask for police I said tell police to do
victimology you have to find out everything about this victim I want to know I'm trying to figure out why this
victim was a victim of a crime was it was it he or she a victim of opportunity uh in the wrong place at the wrong time
is there something that the victim was was involved with you know here that increased the uh the risk level um give
example say a woman's driving down a highway runs out of gasoline uh a trucker come by or someone in the car
offers offers a ride shows up missing and final body she's dead so we had we start off with a and that's a difficult
Case by the way to solve because we start we start off with a with a very lowrisk victim she car breaks down runs
out of gas whatever goes with somebody she doesn't know she's increased the risk level uh and to become the victim
of violent crime the body in all probability will be disposed uh uh outside uh leaving very little forensic
evidence to you know to work with plus it it also shows the mobility you know of the U of the offender um in the area
of of rape for example because a lot of people think all we do a Serial murder cases we do do every kind of case really
and every you could do assessments you can do public corruption assessments police corruption you could do uh arson
bombings prodct tamper refering extortion you know kidnappings in the area of rape they'll come back and
they'll say you know the uh the victim was raped the subject perform sodomy on on the victim what do you mean what do
you mean it means something in every different state I don't know you know what you what you mean for me and this
what I will tell them for me to do an analysis of your case I have to know three components of of the rate case I
have to know the verbal the sexual and the physical assault that took place with that victim the verbal
what was the subject saying when he confronted the victim what was he saying to the victim if at all during the sex
act what did he say when he left the victim physically how much force did he use did he use just enough Force to
control the victim or was he excessive in the the amount of force and thirdly sexually what did he do sexually to the
victim and in what order did he do these things sexually to the victim so you you
combine it all now in verbal sexual physical you get the script here and now having that information I'm able to to
now decide which type of rape typology we're dealing with because there are five rape typologies and um once we we
have an information we can I'll give you we have an extreme uh one extreme on the
left would be power reassurance rapist he's generally someone who lives in the neighborhood he's the calling power
reassurance cuz he's asking the victim how his performance is re asking for reassurance that he's performing well to
way over on the other side The Other Extreme on the right side will say is the sexual status no matter what the
victim says no matter how Cooperative the victim will be just to get out of this this mess with this with this guy
he goes Way Beyond as necessary the torture the physical the language threatens the Killer and come back
together you know so and in between all the other ones too it's it's all center around power and anger but but having
information we can and we can also determine the type of maybe prior criminal histories that they would have
whether or not um uh this is a transing guy or whether or not this is a local type of um uh rapist generally the the
first one I mentioned the power reassurance type is someone who is uh is in the area has familiarity with the uh
often times if it's an indoor case and more times are not their indoors with the power reassurance is is familiar
with the residents may have been there to paint the the walls of the apartment or shampoo the carpets fix plumbing or
just through vois activities has does not want to go in Coal so has this familiarity so we can you can determine
that but you got to have the information you got to you have to educate the police to get the right and more times
than not they may not have that they don't have that and you have to go back and so victimology victimology is is key
and victimology too could be there's a uh product tampering uh at a say a major company so victimology is not so much
the person but really the the company you what's going on with the company why would there be product tampering going
on what what's is there any trouble going on there trouble with the unions there's trouble with any supervisors and
and subordinates or pay Cuts or layoffs or anything you know like that so so that that becomes your victim your your
victim is is not a person now it's a you know it's a building and from that we can come up with you know always we come
up with the a direction for the investigation thank you John Douglas for being on our show thank you thanks for
having me bye [Music] bye Joseph condro never expressed any remorse for his deeds and in fact he
vowed to kill again even behind Prison Walls he hinted that there have been other victims but saw nothing to gain by
confessing quote if you hook up a meter to my emotions they're Flatline condro said in a prison interview I don't know
where my emotions are I couldn't give a damn what anyone thinks authorities also
suspect condro killed 8-year-old Shila silvernails of Cal whose strangled nude body was found in a creek bed a day
after she vanished on her way to catch the school bus silver Nail's mother had dated condro in another interview condro
said quote what I would like to see result from publication of my story condro said he hoped to explain what
happened to a good healthy kid and caused the reader to take better care of their children look what I have taken he
said I took a whole community's children in 2012 murderer Joseph condro who was serving a life sentence for killing two
Long View girls died in the state prison at Walla Wala condro died of liver disease due to hepatitis C he was 52
years old Cara rud's Grandfather said he was happy to learn of condro death adding he's burning in hell right now I
hope he suffered and to quote the captain quote he's a real piece of [ __ ] this week we are recommending the killer
across the table by dare I say good friend of the show garage Army member the great John Douglas check out the
killer across the table unlocking the secrets of serial killers and predators with the FBI's original mind Hunter this
fascinating and haunting expert account helps us understand why the most shocking homicides occur and you can
find that title as well as others at our website True Crime garage.com on the recommended page if you're looking for
more True Crime garage to listen to or old episodes download the Stitcher app and check out our show off the record on
Stitcher premium until next time everybody be good be kind and don't [Music] litter
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Today we discuss serial killer Joseph Kondro and talk to the man that interviewed him. Retired Special Agent John Douglas who pioneered criminal profiling joins the show. John walks us through the process for interviewing some of the most notorious killers of our time. Beer of the Week - Dark Subject Matter by Monday Night Brewing Garage Grade - 4 and 1/2 bottle caps out of 5

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Brief Summary

John Douglas discusses the abduction and murders of Rema Traxler and Cara Rudd, revealing insights into their killer, Joseph Condro.

Key points

The Disappearance of Rema Traxler. 8-year-old Rema Traxler vanishes on her way home from school, sparking a community search.
Joseph Condro's Arrest. Joseph Condro is arrested for tampering with a witness, leading to a deeper investigation.
The Discovery of Cara Rudd's Body. Police discover the body of Cara Rudd in a rusted Volkswagen, linking Condro to her murder.
Condro's Confession. In a shocking courtroom moment, Joseph Condro confesses to the murders of both Rema and Cara.
Interviewing a Serial Offender. The complexities of interviewing serial offenders and understanding their psyche.
The BTK Strangler's Confession. Dennis Raider reveals the impact of his wife's discovery on his criminal behavior.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

God bless murder victim Cara Rudd because of her courageous fight to live.

Reflection on Cara Rudd's bravery and its impact on the investigation.

14:21WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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