Jeffrey MacDonald /// Part 2 /// 465 | Forensic Files

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what I heard was acid is groovy kill the pigs and I believe I heard that twice at
first that was the first thing that I remember hearing but it's very jumbled because that's mixed up with my wife
screaming Jeff help me and my daughter screaming [Music] we have a triple homicide we have a man
in the hospital the sole survivor of an attack that went down by four Intruders according to his account what we have
too Captain is a crime scene that does not provide us any obvious signs for a motive we have no signs of a break-in
right when MPS responded to Jeffrey McDonald's call explaining that his family had been stabbed they arrived on
scene and they found the front door to the apartment locked and secured they found the back door open and it and if
you believe that there was Intruders you go well okay that makes sense but if you
believe there wasn't an intruder it still makes sense because the weapons were found discarded in the backyard one
thing that I do like about this case and it's funny to say you like anything about a triple homicide what I like
about this case from an investigative standpoint is you only have two options okay so if you are out there listening
to this case you maybe you've never heard of this case before and you're thinking what the hell could have
happened here let me clear it up for you real quick one of two things happened either four
people entered this home attempted to murder four people only successfully killed three of them and
fled the scene or Jeffrey McDonald killed his family staged the scene and provided law enforcement with a
story to cover why he's alive and the three other members of his family are dead those are your only possibilities
here so don't let your imagination run wild it's either a or b and if you're going to come to a conclusion you have
to pick a side and you only have those two sides to choose from so either The Intruders entered through
this back door attempted to kill everybody inside and then fled leaving the back door open or Jeffrey McDonald
killed his family and the instruments that he used to kill them he opened up the back door tossed them outside and
then called the police right and all the weapons that were used like you said before were found with inside the house
they don't believe these were weapons that were taken to the scene of the crime but again
still possible if you have four Intruders that they use weapons that they they could just be breaking in they
they might not have been planning on murdering anybody and then they go okay well we're here might as well and we
have let's see what we have as weapons that so that could apply for the Intruder Theory also implies for the
husband killing his whole family and you really question again a crime scene that
leaves us with no obvious signs for a motive it doesn't leave us with any obvious signs of a motive that Jeffrey
killed his family I mean this was a a family man his children were five and two he had been married for a while this
was okay so maybe his daughter with the bed we know for a fact that she did wet his side of the bed that's that's an
absolute fact what he decided to do when he noticed that is one of two things either he gets in an argument loses
control and kills his family or he goes to sleep on the couch as he said but when it comes to The Intruders
we don't have a robbery that took place we don't have missing items from the home the only evidence that we have of
anything of motive as far as Intruders would go is this the word pigs Written in Blood
on the headboard Jeffrey McDonald and his family represent the man and represent whatever these people have an
issue with with society and maybe they're trying to they're trying to carry out Manson family type murders and
attacks that really are I mean at the heart of the Manson family murders was to instill fear and create these race
riots and we wouldn't necessarily learn that 1970 but it's almost these senseless murders right right that
they're that they're one and the same as a similar thing that went down in California is now going down in North
Carolina these drug crazed cult hippies are they're willing to break into anyone's home and kill anybody just
because and I don't want to get into a big debate because we're not covering the mans in case but that's not what I
believe in the was and that murder let's get into Jeffrey McDonald's description
of the four Intruders because as said this only went down one of two ways the four Intruders did it or Jeffrey
McDonald did it this is from his 1970 interview he describes these four individuals as
follows the most famous of the suspects here would be the lone female intruder she's the one that people who have
followed this case or if you have any awareness of this case you've heard about her she is really
one of the centerpieces of of this case so he describes one blonde female wearing a floppy hat high boots and a
short skirt he says he could not recall the color of the boots although I've seen statements not by McDonald but I've
seen statements put out there that the boots were were either white or brown he says he cannot recall the exact color
of the boots he said that they were wet when he saw the boots that they were shiny or they appeared to be wet and
that this woman was holding a candle or flashlight in front of her face and she was the one saying that
acid is groovy killed the pigs someone was saying hit him again and he said it might have been the female Intruder who
was saying hit him again this lady he describes as Caucasian female 16 to 25 years of age five foot
two to five foot four inches tall approximately 110 to 130 pounds long light blonde hair hanging to the middle
of her back wearing a large floppy hat dark colored high brown or black fake leather boots possibly either a short
skirt or shorts medium build and again holding a lit candle in front of her body or flashlight the male Intruders he
says one was a Caucasian male 18 to 25 years old five foot ten inches tall 170 to 180 pounds medium build wearing a tan
jacket clean shaven wearing a cross on a chain around his neck another one of the male Intruders also
Caucasian again 18 to 25 years of age five foot seven inches tall 140 to 150 pounds dark hair slight to medium build
Thin Mustache deep set eyes with pock marks on cheeks and Chin wearing a sweatshirt with hood dangling down in
the back the other Intruder he describes as a black male age 18 to 24 years of age
approximately five foot ten inches to 5 foot 11 inches tall 160 to 180 pounds medium build medium complexion
he had black hair cut close to the head and was where well kept wearing an army fatigue jacket with
Sergeant E6 stripes the man was clean-shaven and had a chubby face that's the Brilliance of this case
captain again it's one of two things either these four Intruders killed this family
or Jeffrey McDonald killed his family the thing here though Captain it's so fascinating to me is
it's a very detailed account per McDonald's what happened that night and who is responsible not only is it picking one
side or the other but you're going to if you believe the Intruder Theory his account is so so detailed
I think that that's where you run into trouble as an investigator on this case because you go he gave such a detailed
account of The Intruders and what went down that night how could he be lying how could he make it up
but then it's also the details are are so much so there that that could be his downfall as well yeah
but it's also the way when we talked about this we talked about this after recording yesterday's show was the way
he presents the evidence it's it's almost like he blurs it well and I think I I did this and I think at that point I
was going in and out of Consciousness and even when he talks about hearing his wife screamed that he then thinks he
hears his daughter scream but it was all jumbled it's almost like by blurring the
lines a little bit it's setting up a get out of free jail card so if you tell them well that the the forensic evidence
doesn't back that up he can go well I don't know if my details are 100 correct there's also a problem with that part of
his account in my opinion to to say that there were only four Intruders and that
he hears his wife screaming Jeff why are they doing this to me at the same time that he's being
attacked by the four Intruders seems a little difficult to put that all together if in fact there were only four
people that broke into his home that night while we're talking about the crime scene Captain I want to point something
out here and I want to take something out from the investigation because I think that this case gets very confusing
when you start overlapping all of the evidence the would-be evidence or evidence that nothing is there and one
thing is the footprints okay so one thing that the MPS immediately questioned in their investigation and
Jeffrey McDonald's account of what went down that night is it had been raining all night when these four Intruders came
into the home and McDonald's account as well says he believed the boots the female boots that he saw were wet
soaking wet why were there not wet Footprints all over the house why was there not mud muddy Footprints
and debris you know grass and stuff like that inside the home well this is also a
bloody scene so where's the bloody Footprints of of these there was one bloody footprint found inside the house
and it was Jeffrey McDonald's footprint where he had stepped in Blood and you could see his his footprint was found
there which makes sense going off of his account he woke up after he was attacked
he goes room to room looking to help his family so obviously you would expect to
find that there the reason why I say let's go ahead and toss out the footprint Theory because I don't think
that you can conclude that there were Intruders or not Intruders based off of well we didn't find any wet or muddy
Footprints inside the house and I say that because we have a statement from the military police themselves 14
military police were inside that crime scene while they were investigating securing the area trying to get help to
these four people who were attacked and their own detectives say we didn't find any Footprints from the MPS so if you
you didn't find any Footprints from the MPS it's also logical that you may not find any Footprints from The Intruders
correct so I think we can go ahead looking at the crime scene toss out Footprints or no Footprints as it
doesn't help us decide if there were Intruders or not the other thing I want to go ahead and throw out as well are
fingerprints because we have statements in court documents that make it sound like there were
probably some Intruders in the house because we had 30 3-0 unidentified fingerprints found inside the McDonald
apartment well that's a lot of a lot of unidentified fingerprints if you go into
most people's homes you are going to find unidentified fingerprints in most people's homes one thing that's very
interesting about this is the daughters they failed to fingerprint the daughters in their investigation
so it's whoopsie isn't it conceivable to believe that two young people that lived
in this house every day probably left some of their own fingerprints in that house and you have
30 unidentified fingerprints because you failed to fingerprint two of the people
that lived inside of the home and possibly other acquaintances of the family correct so there again I don't
think that fingerprints with or without them helps us decide if there were Intruders or not that night so toss out
the footprints or lack of footprints toss out the fingerprints and we'll continue through the evidence and while
we're on the suspects here Captain the description of The Intruders provided to us by Jeffrey McDonald
one thing that has really confused this case and made it extremely difficult is that the woman he described the woman in
the floppy hat as she is famously known this woman was found this woman was located a Woman matching
that description was located and questioned and said that on the night of the murders that she had gone out for a
ride with three of her friends her three male friends and they were so far out on
drugs that she could not tell you what she did that night or where she was she could have been at the McDonald House
she doesn't know that is what led to the article 32 hearing of dismissing the case against Jeffrey McDonald the Army
said basically look there's not enough evidence to try this man right and second of all there's been a woman
located that matches the description of the woman in the floppy hat she cannot account for her whereabouts that night
she was on drugs now mind you the Army kind of decided that whoever committed these triple
homicides that they were either mentally insane or hopped up on drugs right LSD yeah or or what have you two men so tune
in and that's what gets Difficult about this case Captain they found this woman named Helena Stokely who she matches the
description because she says that she borrowed a hat from a friend a floppy hat borrowed a blonde wig from one of
her friends because Helena Stokely does not have blonde hair she has very dark hair and apparently doesn't own a floppy
hat she says it that night her and her three friends they were out doing drugs and she was so hopped up on drugs can't
tell you exactly what she was doing but she knows she was wearing that blonde wig and that floppy hat then we have
witnesses coming forward that start telling police that Helena Stokely told them that she
was somehow involved in these murders that she was at the McDonald house that night
that she had seen how it went down yeah I think there's a clip of her saying that she at one point yelled acid is
groovy kill the pigs she also says that she believed that she said hit him again
once or twice while she was inside the home right which is too things that Jeffrey claims that these
Intruders said so then you go look most of the evidence doesn't point to there being an intruder
most of the evidence points to this dude is guilty he's a piece of [ __ ] for killing his family right
but this is a big piece we we we now we now have this lady that he's claiming was there when he was
attacked and when the murders took place and she's going um yeah by the way I borrowed a hat borrowed a wig I was
there now I'm telling people Not only was I there but this is what I said now again I wonder where she could have got
this information from is it possible that she got this information from press releases and there were dozens of
witnesses saying that she told them that she was there that night yeah this was before she was being looked at before
her name was known to this case and in the papers well and that gives it more weight to me because if she was only
making statements after she was arrested in question then it to me it would just
be like well here's here's maybe some druggie that's looking for their 15 minutes of
fame but she's telling people this before she's identified as one of The Intruders so in 1970 was
the year of the murders and the year of the article 32 hearings that were conducted by the U.S army to decide if
we're going to try and and court-martial Jeffrey McDonald even though it was dismissed
it sounds like they wanted to look at this Helena Stokely person figure out her possible involvement in this whole
thing but at the same time Jeffrey McDonald was still considered a suspect in this case even though they dismissed
the case right like I said because the majority of the evidence really points to him so shortly after he gets out of
these article 32 hearings he starts doing media interviews TV shows you heard it there in the trailer and
some clips there he goes on and he starts telling what happened uh on live TV or on these different TV shows and
remember Freddie casab his father-in-law kassab stood by Jeffrey McDonald however he starts
seeing his son-in-law on these TV shows and he starts hearing the stories that McDonald's telling on
these TV shows and he's saying wait a second this isn't matching up with what some of
the stories we've heard from McDonald before there's all these slight variations of these stories what I'm
also assuming that he had some private conversations Jeffrey had some private conversations with his father-in-law and
probably told him some details too so absolutely both Freddy and Mildred kasab the in-laws Colette's parents testified
on Jeffrey McDonald's behalf at the article 32 hearings saying that that they were more emotionally invested in
this case than anyone else in the room and neither of them considered Jeffrey McDonald to be a suspect and I think
that that rang loud and clear to the persons at that article 32 hearing right because
essentially they're victims right so you have victims saying hey we don't think this
is the guy so it was their daughter it was their granddaughters right because a lot of times let's say you have just a
little pile of evidence and you go but we don't know if this is enough to convict him
but sometimes those jurors are going to weigh in favor of let's at least charge this guy let's put him on trial because
we have these victims and they need justice but now you have live victims in the courtroom saying we don't need
Justice because this isn't the guy what you also have is Jeffrey McDonald moves out to Long Beach California very
quickly after the article 32 hearings are dismissed play on player now we have Freddie casab who's starting to see his
son-in-law on TV going these his stories are different he's starting to explain different injuries that he sustained
during these attacks that he did not sustain that kassab knew Jeffrey did not sustain right and so he keeps calling
his son-in-law this is over the course of months and months and months McDonald's out in California and kasab
is getting him on the phone constantly saying we need to find these four people that that killed our family in
particular casab wanted a he wanted to have a copy of the 2000 page transcript of the article 32 hearings now kassab
wanted this and we would learn this later Captain but kassab wanted this because he wanted to see what McDonald's
statements were to MPS that night he wanted to see what Jeffrey had told investigators all along and compare it
to What Jeffrey told him and what he sees Jeffrey telling in the newspapers currently and when he was on these TV
shows he wants to compare all this Jeffrey McDonald keeps telling kasab that that's not a document that the Army
is willing to hand out I've contacted them multiple times I've asked them for this document it's 2 000 Pages roughly
they're not willing to give it to me right well Freddie casabs he wasn't born 10 minutes ago eventually he decides to
contact make him a really young father and grandfather he decides to contact the Army himself and they do in
fact provide him with a copy of the transcript of the article 32 hearings yeah and my issue with this is look you
know you're you're the father-in-law it's not about so much the infidelity whether you think married people should
hook up with other people it's the lying about it right if if Jeffrey's wife was
okay with it who am I to say what they do in their marriage but when you're lying about it you're doing something
that she doesn't want to do and then now on top of that his father-in-law is catching him in another lie so all that
all I'm stating is that now we know he's a liar so what else is he lying about Freddie and Mildred kasab wanted to
carry on a family type relationship with Jeffrey McDonald after Colette and the kids were Bartered they wanted to carry
on a relationship with their son-in-law he's out in California he kind of he responds to their calls talks to him on
the phone but he doesn't really want much to do with them is what cassava tell us cassav keeps saying we've got to
find out who did this well McDonald tells Freddie we don't have to worry about Colette's murder anymore we don't
have to worry that the police have not found anyone have not arrested anyone because me and a couple of other Green
Berets we track down one of the men that was responsible for the murders that night
we found him in Texas and we went there and we did some Street Justice that night we we took care of him you killed
him I broke my arm in the process but me and a couple guys from the Green Berets
we took care of one of the guys so Freddie casab you don't have to worry about Colette's murder anymore we're
taking care of it here's my big problem with this again we know he's a liar you know that your son-in-law's a liar so I
don't buy this bag of horseshit story one bit right right Jeffrey McDonald is not some
tough guy and what it seems to me is you go motive was the motive his daughter taking a piss in his bed
no no no no the motive was he didn't want to be married and he didn't want to have kids and he wanted to just sleep
with whoever he wanted to and not have to answer anybody and we have now extra evidence of that
what does he do does he try to stay in the area and try to get Justice for his wife and his daughters no and for his
unborn baby no what does he do he goes out to LA he wants to try to act like a Playboy well he says he goes out there
Captain because he just couldn't continue to live his life the way he was when he was married and when he had
children that that being around his in-laws talking with his in-laws only brought up all of the pain full memories
and all of the nightmares that he was having so he says in his own defense that that is a big portion of why he
moved out to California and why he didn't want to look into the murders the way that Freddy kassab wanted to look
into these murders now when was Freddie casab born Captain uh not yesterday not 10 minutes ago we don't we didn't have
it in our timeline for when he was born but we know it wasn't 10 minutes ago because he contacts is Jeffrey
McDonald's employer out in California remember McDonald told him he took a trip out to Texas with some of his Green
Beret buddies and they took did some Street Justice yeah he told him what dates that he was in Texas kassab speaks
with McDonald's employer and finds out no he was in California and he was at work on those days that he claimed to
have been in Texas solving the murder of his wife and daughters yeah yeah liar liar pants on fire now now hear me out
though too think about how how this makes zero sense at all by the way you don't have to worry about the murders
anymore because we already took care of one of the pieces of [ __ ] if you're willing to get a couple of Green Berets
and go do some prison Justice and possibly put be put into prison for the rest of your life for murder you're not
going to stop at one of The Intruders you're going to make sure that you find every single one of The Intruders and
you make sure they're dead if you ever seen a Liam Neeson movie when he he went after the kidnappers and he killed one
and said okay well well there I know there's another three out there but movies over folks get your popcorn and
get the [ __ ] out of the theater no that's not what happens Liam Neeson gives you a call and says I'm coming for
you and he comes after all of them and kills them all [Music] [Music] [Music] all right we're back in True Crime
addicts cheers to you and cheers to the goat paternal Hallelujah to the people in the
back some people could like to call you the baby goat I see some of you back there nodding off wake up you know who
I'm talking about yeah Captain I believe that it was Freddy casab that really was
spearheaded this investigation to finally bringing charges against Jeffrey McDonald the way that this works is
McDonald is he's discharged from the Army so if he would have remained an officer in the Army this would have been
an army problem right they would have had to take this thing to trial and do it their way but once he's discharged he
becomes a civilian again and now it becomes the problem of the local law enforcement agency we have Freddie casab
who he starts setting up meetings with different detectives and explaining to them things that they missed things that
Jeffrey McDonald is saying to him that he knows not to be true saying to them why they should be charging his
son-in-law with the murder of his daughter and two granddaughters it's not until 1979.
okay they were killed in 1970. the article 32 hearings were in 1970 but in 1979 they finally take Jeffrey McDonald
to trial and he's charged with three counts of murder again because you have the victims pleading for justice correct
what's interesting here is the opening statements by the prosecution they talk at length about that magazine the
remember the magazine articles that we were talking about in yesterday's show about the Manson family murders and how
Jeffrey McDonald was having a conversation with his friend Lieutenant Harrison about can you believe what's
going on in California can you believe these crazy hippie Cults that are killing people
well they discussed that Esquire magazine at length in the opening statement because they said what
happened was Jeffrey McDonald flew off the handle lost it there was an argument between him and his wife that turned
violent at some point McDonald strikes her in the head with that piece of wood or the
club and then he goes on to kill his wife and his two daughters when he had to come up with a reason of
what happened he remembered back to the magazine articles about the crazy Cults that are
breaking into people's homes the drugged out uh insane hippies that are looking for blood acid is groovy man he
remembered those articles and he set up the scene to make it look like that is what went down
and he had the story The Alibi already written for him it was in the Esquire magazine the March 1970 Esquire magazine
issue yeah that seems believable because it just happened and the trial hasn't even happened yet in the Manson family
murders so if it could happen out west why couldn't it happen at least it could happen anywhere anywhere where
there's young people doing drugs that that want to do violence for no reason at all I would just say it's less likely
to happen on Fort Bragg or any army facility Well this was not a closed army base this base was actually open to the
public some of them are closed and that that's one thing that you you go okay well
if it went down the way McDonald's said on a closed base they would have they would have found the people that did
this that night but that's not the situation here I'm just saying what they're going to go on to present
Captain is evidence that McDonald's story it's just not right it's a little horse there are problems
with his story and again you only have one of two outcomes here he's he's laid the groundwork for us he told us the
story the alternative story of what happened to his family if you don't believe that he killed them you gotta
believe the other one so they start tearing apart his story I I don't like the fact that all the weapons or all the
instruments of murder came from with inside the home I also don't like the fact that we have no
Footprints and we have no evidence of fingerprints being from any of these Intruders
quote-unquote Intruders the other piece of evidence that I really think works against him is he claims that there's
this struggle on this fight and he's being attacked and stabbed inside the home in the family room
and they find zero of his shirt fibers in the family room yes so remember his description of what went down he says at
some point his pajama top must have been pulled up over top of his head it's around his forearms and his hand and
he's using this to fend off the attacker and there's all of these puncture holes
in his pajama top he says that he's using this to fend off them trying to strike him with the ice
pick or with the knife he doesn't know it's kind of a blur You Know It All Happened very quickly but what the
captain's pointing out is that attack per Jeffrey McDonald went down in the living room
or a family room what have you know there are no fibers torn off fibers from that pajama top found in the living
room where you do find pajama top Jeffrey McDonald PJ top fibers are in the bedrooms right where Colette
was killed in the master bedroom and his daughters who were killed in their bedrooms well and I have an issue with
something and it's not really pointed out in a lot of arguments that you see online but him taking his daughter that
wet the bed and putting in putting her into her bed I know that times were different but a
lot of the times you have to clean the kid up because if not they can get rashes and
stuff and so for him to be a doctor and to go okay well I'm going to move her out of the bed but there's pee and I
don't want to clean it up so I'll just sleep on the couch you still need to clean up your daughter
and he's very detailed about so many parts of the story but he never says why I picked up my daughter and then then I
cleaned her off and then I put her to bed well let's take that fiber evidence a step further because there's something
else that lines up with that fiber evidence he says that he was struck in the head with that club or that piece of
wood in the living room uh-huh well we know that some of the other victims Colette
in particular were struck in the head or neck area with that club or that piece of wood
they found splinters little pieces of fragments of the piece of wood right of the club
where did they find those not the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles father they found them in the bedrooms not in the
living room where he says he was attacked so therefore it didn't happen so again the physical evidence is not
lining up with his story liar liar pants on fire the other issue is he says that
he administered mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on the three victims inside the home now this is a good one
that you're pointing out on break out of the three three other victims two of them both of his daughters were
found in their beds anybody that's done mouth to mouth even just somebody like me who's just trained in CPR and first
aid I'm no doctor right this guy's a surgeon but you are a colonel the two daughters are found in their beds and
they're found lying on their sides if he had administered mouth to mouth to them
one would think being a doctor he would know that your you should lay them out flat you're going to have to move or
manipulate the body once you find them in their bedrooms lay them flat and administer mouth to mouth
that way all right makes zero sense so it just doesn't look like he did what he said that he did let's take it a step
further law enforcement the detectives were able to determine that the pig That Was Written in Blood Colette's blood on
the headboard in the master bedroom whoever wrote that used two fingers to smear the blood to make the letters and
wore gloves when they applied the blood to the headboard they could tell this because there were no fingerprints they
take that a step further they found pieces of surgical gloves in the master bedroom covered in Colette's blood
they found surgical gloves in the cabinet in the kitchen that matched up with the
pieces of the surgical gloves found in the master bedroom so if you are willing to believe that four individuals broke
into this home or found the door locked unlocked out back and entered the home managed to go through the home and find
the murder weapons pick their weapons while they're at the scene they also managed to find surgical gloves and
decided to put them on after they've already been inside the home doesn't make a lot of sense does it no it
doesn't make any sense and if you want to take this a step further well and hold on a second because I want to point
out something in the story like I said I I think this individual Jeffrey's smart
enough to know how to blur lines I think he's a chronic liar I think he probably
would lie about things that he wouldn't even need to lie about but when he said in his story something to the effect of
that he could tell that one of the the attackers had gloves on now is that stating what kind of gloves
but he knows he knows that he used surgical gloves wear these and smear the blood so they can't get my fingerprint
but I also have to establish that I know that one of The Intruders have gloves on
them at the trial Captain two very important things happen in this case that stand out from the others
one we talked about all that that evidence we just discussed but he hires a really good defense team you know this
is on par with maybe not the Dream Team like OJ had but these are he's got a whole team of lawyers
and they kind of set up camp together so they're all working day and night on Jeffrey McDonald's defense
the defense team decides to hire Joe McGinnis they wanted a a an author Joe McGinnis was a well-known author at the
time and they hired him because they wanted to at some point tell the story Jeffrey
McDonald story of how his family was killed until it from the defense's perspective
so they hire this author and have him hold up with their defense team while they're building their case to defend
Jeffrey McDonald the other thing that happens is that the defense team presents a woman
to the court Helena Stokely Helena Stokely and they present witnesses that say that Helena Stokely told them that
she was at the crime scene that she was at the McDonald House and knows what went down that night yeah that she's all
hopped up on acid wearing the blonde wig wearing the floppy dong hat Stokely when she testifies she basically says
I don't know where I was that night I was on drugs me and my friends were on drugs it was not the first night nor was
it the last night that I cannot recall anything that I did that night I'm a golden God I'm on drugs however
the defense is able to point out that she matches given the wig that she would have been wearing given the floppy hat
that she borrowed from a friend she would have matched the description provided by Jeffrey McDonald but we also
don't know exactly when she borrowed that wig or borrowed that hat according to her statements and this was not
presented at court but according to her statements later she says that she borrowed the wig and the hat for the
outing that night and what's weird about Helena Stokely is her story is going to change and it's
going to become more much more difficult as she tells this story she starts filling in some of
the blanks and then you start to wonder man it sounds to me like these four Intruders really did enter the house and
did carry this out the short of it is Jeffrey McDonald is convicted of killing his wife and his two daughters convicted
of three homicides but what we would hear throughout time is all of these Witnesses come forward Helena Stokely
told me she was there that night oh her boyfriend at the time was considered to be some kind of violent maniac and he
matches the description of one of the men of the three they could have been with Helena Stokely
that night but of the three that could have been with her as any of them dead well that's what's difficult Helena
Stokely the best that she can provide to anybody for the longest time was I was there that night but I cannot
implicate the other three that were there with me I was there that night I saw what went down but I will not tell
you who the three people were with me that night one of my problems with her in general is why
would you say anything to anyone about these murders or even say that you were there yes you're saying hey I'm I I
can't um tell on the others but if these other individuals or these to range druggy Psychopaths they're gonna find
you and they're going to kill you you see what I mean I almost feel like yes she doesn't know if she was there or not
and yes she probably has said multiple times acid is groovy man but I think some of it is just we see especially in
the 70s 70s and the 80s the popularity of these individuals I mean Charles Manson at one point had to
be in the top five icons of the world personalities of the world where everybody has heard that name as seen
his picture could it just be that this individual wanted some kind of notoriety and it
didn't really matter how it was because when push came to shove when when she's being talked when she's talking to
reporters she seems like she's more confident that she was there and that this murder took place when she's
talking to people that matter because they could put her in jail seems like she clams up a little bit this case is
very difficult to go through for me to to sit in my chair and try to stay neutral or to try to keep a level head
because I look at this case and I see appeal after appeal after appeal after appeal filed from the McDonald camp
I start to wonder how much and how long and how how costly has keeping Jeffrey McDonald been
to to the state and then you take it a step further and you go or is this a huge
Injustice did these Intruders kill his family because then you have you have everybody that that are are McDonald
backers that say how can you have multiple Witnesses multiple people come forward that say
they believe Helena Stokely and I I say this to those people it doesn't mean that what she is telling
you is the truth just because you believe her or she told you something it doesn't mean that that is in fact the
truth it just means that that's what she said with Helena Stokely she has always kind
of been a big issue a big problem and also a big reason why the McDonald Camp has so many things to question and to
appeal in this case we talked about the unidentified fingerprints okay well that's a problem for the prosecution we
got into the fibers and the splinters that were not good for McDonald that made him look very guilty however when
he was tried it was agreed upon that there were at least two hairs or two locations inside the crime scene where
they found hair that they could not match to anyone one of those was a blonde synthetic hair
a fake hair see that's that's the Helena Stokely story was that she borrowed a blonde wig that someone entered the home
that's the problem with this damn story is like it this is why it's the great debater right is because
again you go okay the word Pig Was Written in Blood using gloves that a surgeon would wear that you found in the
house it's more likely that the surgeon that killed his family would know where those gloves were and then he used that
as a way to cover up these murders and to then say it was these this hippie satanic group
or whatever right so a piece of evidence like that goes oh Paul he's definitely full of [ __ ] right and then they find
something like fake hair blonde now here's my my issue with that is that that seems like a aha
aha we guiding moment right and if you found that that blonde strain of hair that would come from possibly a wig then
he is totally innocent but you have two daughters and how many Barbies do they have how
many you to me you would have to test that fiber that's synthetic hair yeah that synthetic hair against every single
My Little Pony Barbie doll or whatever yeah this is true the other thing that looks really bad for McDonald and this
this is I understand that this case is you know heavily debated I get it the master debater I can I can
understand why however I think that what we have here and I think it's something very unique
to any of the you know we've covered so many cases Captain I think this is a very unique situation where we have what
I can only describe to everyone out there as divine intervention and what that is in the McDonald case is that you
have a family of four and you have a statistical anomaly something that's extremely rare
where each member of the McDonald family they have a different blood type Colette
is a Jeffrey is B Kimberly is a b and Kristen is O what did they find at the crime scene a lot of blood
a lot of the victim's blood when they figured out and test all the blood in the house
they found that the victim's blood is located in places that it should not be if Jeffrey
McDonald's story is correct right so if they found some of his daughter's blood in the master bedroom that doesn't line
up with this story correct the bigger problem for Jeffrey McDonald is they found his blood in
places that it should not be according to his story another problem is they did not find his
blood where it should have been if you were to believe his story and that's what I call a little bit of divine
intervention that we had a situation that is so extremely rare like this where you could debate it until you're
blue in the face but at the end of the day that's God telling us this is what went down this man murdered his family
and he's not going to get away with it so let me rather than go hold on a second but because hold on a second I
know what you're saying but if we find blood like if we found the daughter's blood in the master bedroom one would
assume well his story just doesn't make any sense but it's like but he wouldn't have known what was happening in those
rooms and it's very possible that when they were attacking when The Intruders were attacking the mother that one of
the daughters ran in you see what I'm saying like right and that's why I don't want to go through all of the local
locations of where the three dead victims blood was found right because one it would take us an hour to do so
and this is information that is available to anyone out there if you're so inclined to go looking for it plus
would sound like super nerd but I'm going to point out some places that are just downright obvious where the blood
should not be and it you can't explain it away by one victim walking into another victim's room okay so the most
damning place that you're going to find dead victims blood in this case is in the living room where he says None of
the victims were where he was attacked by himself by three men and a woman is watching these three men attack Jeffrey
McDonald the problem with his story Captain is the location of the victim's blood so
this is Kimberly McDonald's blood and Colette's blood their blood was found on the March 1970 issue of Esquire magazine
why is that such a problem for Jeffrey McDonald in his story the magazine was sitting on the coffee
table they're supposed to be this big huge struggle between this military man and three other men in this living room
however the only thing that was disrupted in this entire room was the coffee table it was knocked over when
you knock over the coffee table the and police did this test over and over again
it was very difficult for them to get a situation where the coffee table fell on
top of the magazine and pinned the magazine so the magazine is between the edge of the coffee table and the floor
right now they did this reenactment multiple times and it was like one out of out of
dozens of times did they get the coffee table to fall in a way that the magazine
fell between the floor and the coffee table okay so it can happen it could happen right however according to him
he's already under attack in the living room that coffee table would have been knocked over while these men were
attacking him mind you nothing else was Disturbed in the living room their blood is found on that magazine
that was pinned to the floor by the coffee table so that what that tells you is their blood had to have been placed
on that magazine before the coffee table was knocked over that just means his story is
is wrong it's a lie what I'm pointing out here is is what I think believe happened is after he
murdered his family he came in there and knocked over the coffee table he he staged the living room to make it appear
like he was attacked in that room and in the process of staging the room he because he's the murderer and had his
blood on his hands he's now transferred the blood from his wife and from his daughter Kimberly onto the magazine
itself yeah it could have been him sitting there and pondering what the hell do I do
and where the when the blood was transferred and then he goes okay well now I need to Stage this room
and you know where his blood was found where it should not have been this is very troubling for Jeffrey
McDonald as well his blood mind you he's attacked in the living room none of his blood is found
in the living room at all only his wife and daughter Kimberly's blood is found in the living room on that magazine in
the living room his blood is located in the bedroom where Colette was killed and his blood more importantly that's
because I mean they find him lying next to her of course they're going to find his blood there
but a place where his blood should not have been found was located on the floor in the kitchen
right in front of the cabinet that was housing the surgical glove that's that's not good for him
so if we are to believe the blood evidence it appears that Colette and Kimberly were killed he goes into the
living room to Stage the living room to make it look like he was attacked transfers blood to the the magazine
then at some point he realizes I'm going to have to I'm going to have to put some
superficial wounds on myself or nobody's going to believe that four people broke in killed these three
people and did nothing to me so after he harms himself after he cuts himself he then went into the kitchen kneeled down
opened up the cabinet got out the surgical gloves went back into the bedroom and putting on the gloves
because he can't use his bare fingers to write Pig on the headboard because then
his fingerprints would smudge in the blood so he puts on the surgical gloves dips
his fingers and colettes blood and writes Pig on the headboard yeah that's a ring ring ring D is gone Deez Nuts got
him Helena Stokely passed away quite a while ago in fact and a lot of people have continued to believe her story
there's some problems with her story because when she agreed to be filmed and interviewed by two individuals she told
a story of what happened that night she said that her and three males went to the McDonald House the apartment he was
a Target they knew he was a doctor they targeted him because they knew he was a doctor they found the back door
unlocked they went into the home and they confronted Jeffrey McDonald in the living room
they were trying to get drugs from him obviously he's not going to have drugs to give them at his house so they
allowed him to use the kitchen phone he makes a phone call he can't get whatever they're looking for and then
the men attack him she says it was out of her control she didn't know anybody was going to be attacked that night she
just knew they were going to go they targeted this guy and they were going to get drugs from this guy
when that didn't happen she said the three men she was with became angry they thought they could physically force him
to get what they were looking for and this became the attack and then because they were all on drugs and out of their
minds according to the woman in the floppy hat they went on and killed McDonald's
family there's some issues with her story okay again nobody received a phone call from
Jeffrey McDonald that night his account does not say that the attackers made me call somebody made me use the phone and
second of all when asked what the men were using to attack Jeffrey McDonald were they using
a club a piece of wood a knife an ice pick nope Helena Stokely says they were using
their fist and I think sometimes it's hard for people to believe that anybody would come forward and I I don't
think that like I said when it matters when she's talking to a law enforcement she's not giving them these piece of
pieces of evidence to lock her up and throw away the key and it seems like she's giving more
details or maybe changing those details when there's some publicity involved I don't know what would motivate
somebody to say they were involved in the murders of an innocent wife and a pregnant wife
and two beautiful young daughters I don't know what would possess somebody to say those things it
happens a lot of time where they exclude themselves and what does she do in all every single one of the stories she
excludes herself I was there we're probably there for drugs and yeah maybe I said this
or maybe I said that but uh I didn't kill anybody that was that was the other ones
but we've also seen some people because they've been on drugs confessed to crimes that it was impossible for them
to commit so I I think some of it is um it's just really hard to believe her especially with the amount of
drug use that she had well and this was national news from Jump Street this was Big Time national news immediately after
the murders of these three individuals and so there are crime scene photos in the newspapers Jeffrey McDonald story
of what he told the authorities was in the newspapers she could gather a decent amount of
information straight from the media to corroborate some of McDonald's story but in the end she couldn't cooperate
the whole thing 100 percent what's interesting to me is once we go to trial she comes forward and refuses I mean she
testifies but refuses to testify that she was there that night she's telling all these other people that she was
and what what people would say and what the claim ended up being is that the prosecutor sat her down and threatened
her and that's why she refused to testify that her and her friends killed the McDonald family what was the threat that
they claimed the prosecutor threatened her with they say that he threatened to put her
in prison and she testified that she was there that night that she was involved in the
murders what kind of well I don't understand why anybody would fault a prosecutor for
threatening that right isn't that their job like of course if you're dumb enough to not
understand that if you murder someone you could go to prison uh I'm just here to remind you of that that's not a
threat that's the way of the world that's the way this [ __ ] works so basically he's saying hey if you confess
in the court of law to this murder which will then get this guy off and he goes free well guess who we're
going to charge then the person that we have on record in court confessing to the murder that's correct and let's top
that off with this here Captain because for years and years and years McDonald and his Camp have filed appeal after
appeal not 10 minutes ago no they've been filing appeals up until I think 2009 2012.
he was convicted uh tried back in 1979 they've been jamming up the courts with this with this nonsense for decades well
one of their claims was that an unidentified hair that was found in the hands in the grip
of Colette it's been unidentified for years McDonald said that hair belonged to the
killer to Colette's killer and for years and years and years it remained unidentified
then in 2006 March 10th to be exact 2006 DNA results confirmed that the hair found in Colette's right
hand was her own and a hair found in Colette's left hand belonged to Jeffrey McDonald so he tried
to use those two hairs to say I've been wrongfully convicted when and again once we figure out what
this evidence actually is it only points back to him and one thing that I find so absurd and
so strange bizarrely funny to me is Jeffrey McDonald you finding something funny he claims one that he's innocent
and then he went on to sue Joe McGinnis the guy that was hired to write the book
write the Jeffrey McDonald story he sues McGinnis because McGinnis writes a book
called fatal vision and in that he explains that McDonald is in fact guilty just like the courts
found him and he explains why he believes that McDonald was guilty he said that it was a it was The Perfect
Storm it was a all of this lack of sleep the working the 24-hour shift and then working again this complete lack of
sleep McDonald's taking diet pills or some kind of pills that McGinnis discovered impossible in other drugs
well one of the side effects was going into a rage so you combine that with with his
stresses and his lack of sleep and this side effect and he says that you know this is the perfect storm that led to
this man that that otherwise you don't believe would would be capable of something like this yeah but what I find
bizarrely funny in this case is McDonald's sues Joe McGinnis and then he tells the Press he says you
know this man betrayed me he was one of my best friends my girlfriend you know obviously after the murders my
girlfriend that I had at the time obviously cooked for him cooked for Joe McGinnis he I was betrayed by one of my
best friends well guess what Jeffrey McDonald there is no bigger betrayal in this world than killing your wife and
two daughters okay so I I I guess I don't have to ask I look I love I love that he betrayed me wow
sorry out of all the criminals that we've discussed on the on this show in the garage and Jeffrey McDonald is one
that I hate he's he's up there for me Captain he's he's on my uh do not resuscitate list
yeah so I I guess I don't have to ask this but if you're a betting man your bet goes towards Jeffrey McDonald
being guilty of killing his I will stand up on this table and shout it as loud as
I can this man is as guilty as I've ever seen I don't it's one of those cases I understand why it gets confusing there's
all these little there's all these little things that can then muddy the world yeah there's there's these little
things that you go wait a second but what about this what about this what about this what about this no push them
all aside because only one of two things happened either he killed them or The Intruders did and his blood evidence
tells us he was moving and manipulating that crime scene because he had to because he killed them yeah what was it
that Denzel Washington said it's the little things that get you caught [Music] foreign
[Music] thanks for tuning in thanks for letting us be a part of your week we love you
make sure you follow us on Facebook Twitter Instagram at True Crime garage Colonel do we have any recommended
reading for the beautiful people this week Captain we are recommending American Justice great crimes and trials
by two of my favorites Paul bagg and Martin Fido this is an oldie from 1993 and this is an amazing introduction into
True Crime American Justice features 28 different well-known True Crime cases and the authors are not only fantastic
True Crime authors but Paul bagg and Martin Fido Fido we have recommended some of his other works on the show
before but these two are two of the most incredible ripperologist ever plus old fans of the great TV series American
Justice will love this book and we have this great title as well as other great titles that you will love on our
recommended page available for your viewing and reading pleasure only at truecrime garage.com and until next week
be good be kind and don't let it thank you foreign

Jeffrey MacDonald /// Part 2 /// 465

Part 2 of 2 www.TrueCrimeGarage.com

This week Nic & the Captain tell the story of one of the most litigated murder cases in American criminal history. Doctor and Army officer Jeffrey MacDonald was convicted of murdering his wife and two children. The man says he is innocent. Jeffrey claims the murders were committed by four intruders in the middle of the night. He says they tried to kill him as well. Join the guys in the garage for a beer and hear one of the most debated murder cases to date.

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the McDonald family triple homicide and the investigation into Jeffrey McDonald, analyzing evidence and conflicting accounts.

Key points

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Hosts introduce the show and thank listeners for their support.
Introducing the Case. A triple homicide case with a sole survivor raises questions about the motive.
The Intruder Theory. Details about the alleged intruders and their description complicate the investigation.
Helena Stokely's Involvement. A woman matching the intruder's description claims to have been at the scene.
The Push for Justice. Freddie Casab takes matters into his own hands, seeking justice for his family.
The Trial Begins. After years of investigation, Jeffrey McDonald is finally charged with murder.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

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Describing the two possible scenarios in the case.

4:30WatchNov 8, 2022

Tension

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