Hate American Made ////// Waco Siege | Forensic Files

by an unspeakable act. The apocalypse would occur soon. More white supremacist groups, more
anti-government groups. David Caresh, Ruby Ridge siege, Timothy McVey, more than 80 people dead. Bombed
a federal building in Oklahoma City. Eight by an unspeakable act, there is so little hope left. Hope
I'm saying that when I get through writing these and they're given to my attorney and my attorney hands them
over, what's the two uh theologians name? Uh, Philip Arnold. Philip Arnold and Jim Taber, which have shown that
they have a sincere interest in these things. You see, then I can spend all my time in jail and people go in ask me all
the stupid questions they want because they're not going to ask me about the SE. They're going to say, "Uh, do you
molest young ladies? Uh, have you eaten babies? Do you sacrifice people? Uh, do you make automatic weapons? Uh, do you
have bombs?" That's what they're going to be interested in. Sincerely, that's why you need to get it done before you
leave there. Then that's why I'm going to complete it. Because you see, you know as well as I do that people in this
world, they want something dramatic and sensational. They don't want to have to sit. No one's going to sit there and let
me sit there in front of a camera and read Psalms 40 to them to prove the first seal. Dick, it's a real world. And
that's why I'm sympathetic with your position. I realize you're frustrated and I agree with you. I'm not
frustrated. I went home and I'm I'm in fact I'm no longer frustrated. I never was frustrated. Did you take a shower
for me? Well, yeah. I took a couple of them for you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Now, listen. Let's get back to the
point at hand. This uh you know, the writing of the seals. Okay. You've got to do that from in there, and it's going
to take you x amount of time. But just tell me this, David. Are you saying that when you finish that manuscript, then
I'm not bound any longer. But see, that doesn't answer the question. I'll be out. Yes, definitely. I know you'll be
out, but that could I couldn't Excuse me. I've got a cold. That could mean a lot of things, David. That could mean
I'll be in jeopardy in the jail house. You can come down there and feed anybody. No, I know. I know at some
point in time that's true. But I'm I'm getting from you. I'm asking you that when that is finished, are you then
telling me that you are coming out uh the next day or 2 hours after you send that out? Well, when I when I bring
it out, see, my attorney is going to get the get you the copy, right? Okay. And as soon as he hands it over to the
scholars, the theologians, right, that's when he's going to come back and that's
when I'm going to go out with him because he said point blank that, you know, one of the guarantees of me
arriving down there is that he's going to go with me. [Music] Sunday, February 28th,
1993. Agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms are attempting to execute warrants against David Caresh in
the Branch Devidian compound located in or near Waco, Texas. This was supposed to be an operation that they wanted to
include the media. And spoiler alert, it does it goes horribly wrong. At 9:00 a.m., Waco news reporters arrive near
the compound. Police radio communication indicates authorities may be preparing for a raid. So, they actually
notified the news in advance. The media is on the scene in a small capacity at 9:00 a.m. Now at 9:55 a.m.
the ATF agents move in on the compound and things do not go well right from the get-go. A gun fight, a gun
battle begins at this time and lasts for approximately 20 minutes. They have to go into cleanup mode and and right away
because negotiations begin shortly after 10 p.m. about 10:15 10:20 to start moving the injured people
from the gun battle and it's going to be become a he said she said who shot first
we don't know. Yeah. And we saw the same thing here with Ruby Ridge. You have two
sides all heavily armed. And to be frank with everyone, I've looked at both of these scenarios, Ruby Ridge and Waco,
dozens of times. It doesn't really seem to me like anybody had a great idea of what they were going to be doing and how
to do it. And so you get a bunch of people that are heavily armed and scared out of their wits. Who knows? It's it
gets really difficult to say, especially when we have this number of people on both sides at Waco, who did what first,
who cast the first stone. And a lot of times you have to wonder, could you be in a situation where it's a nervous
fire? Somebody hears something and reacts with nervous gunfire that leads to everybody shooting at everybody. A
little after 12 noon, we get a hospital helicopters that are flying away from the compound. And inside these
helicopters, Captain, we have injured federal agents. By 100 p.m. Remember, keep in mind, they their attempt to go
into the compound started at 5 minutes to 10 a.m. We're roughly 3 hours later. We have a spokesperson at the Waco
hospital confirming the death of an ATF officer by 1 p.m. So, this is the first casualty or the first listed casualty in
these news reports of the Waco siege standoff as it is on day number one. By 5:00 p p.m. we have an ATF spokesperson
who is saying that gunfire continued sporadically throughout the afternoon. At 7:30 p.m. Vernon Howell or as we know
him, David Caresh is interviewed by CNN. At 8:15, ATF spokesperson says negotiations continue
with they're referring to them as cult members to the media at this time. And Caresh then goes for about 20 minutes in
a talk with KRLD Radio, which is located in Dallas, Texas. And during this 20 minute talk with radio
DJ, he's describing his beliefs, what the branch devidians believe, or at least what he's telling them that his
followers believe and saying that he he David Caresh is the most seriously wounded member of the branch devidians
at that time. We would ultimately learn here, Captain, the ATF agents Conway Leblau, Todd
Mcahan, Robert Williams, and Steven Willis all were killed. On March 1, in the early morning hours, we have acting
attorney general Stuart Gerson. He gives an update to President Bill Clinton who
implicitly endorses a negotiation. Right. Let's talk through this to create a solution, a nonviolent solution.
Clinton is asking his cabinet members and his staff to keep him a breast to the situation, keep him up to speed. So,
negotiations will continue on this day. Over the course of the day, we do get 10
children that are sent out of the compound. the FBI takes control with a fully functioning command post that they
set up. So notice that we've we've morphed right away from ATF into FBI, right? Because the ATF was attempting to
conduct those search warrants and execute those search warrants. Well, now we have people who have been killed. So
ultimately, the FBI is the group that's going to be investigating the the the shooting deaths and now starting to take
control over the situation. Well, in David Caresh's compound, it it's a large one and the building looks odd, right?
Yes. I mean, it's it seems very wonky like like every 6 months, let's just add another room on onto this compound, but
across the street was abandoned building. So, I think that's where initially the ATF set up and now
basically because the FBI is getting involved, we basically have a whole military compound being set up directly
across from David Caresh's compound. And I God bless you for using the word wonky
because that was my that was the exact word that came and popped into my brain when I when I'm looking over the layout
of the compound. But but to paint a very basic picture for everyone, maybe you're
too young and you don't recall seeing the photographs in in the the newspapers or seeing news coverage of this horrific
event. But it it essentially looks like a fortress, right? Like a Yeah. A fortress that was built by Boy Scouts
surrounded by a military operation is really what it kind of Yeah. It looks like a suburban fortress because it's,
you know, the vinyl sighting and and we have a lot of things at play here. We have a big mistake by the ATF.
See, a lot of people don't talk about how Dave Caresh had um contracts with some of the local schools where he would
take care of their yards, mow and and do other such chores. They had other options to serve these search warrants.
And they could have done it where not everybody in the compound was involved or by basically set up some kind of
military operation to serve these search warrants. But they chose not to. gunfire
happens. But you also have to remember we also have members of this quote unquote cult that are now in contact
with the um ATF and and the FBI. And so they're giving them some kind of insight to who David Caresh is, how he
thinks, how the followers think, uh what is involved with this compound, what where the weapons could be. And I mean,
this is just uh a bad situation escalating quicker and quicker. And the captain's right in full review of
everything here. If the I almost believe if they would have got Dave Caresh when
he was already outside of those four walls, pick him up on the warrants or at least bring him in for questioning and
then execute the search without him present. I have to believe this would have went down an entirely different way
because I don't who I mean they could have had a contingency plan the Dividians but as you will see throughout
the course of this standoff is not only is Caresh the leader but at times the the Devidians themselves seem to be
hesitant to make any decisions of their own without his leadership. the compound, the fortress or or the fort as
we called it is the captain's exactly right. Wonky is a great description. It's like a
patchwork quilt where they just kept adding on wings and hallways and additional rooms. So, it's really kind
of a labyrinth within those walls. And near the center of the structure is a concrete room which is used sort of as a
storage area for their firearms and and their food rations, but also will act as
a bunker for portions of especially the portions that involve gunfire of this standoff. Now, the walls themselves of
the compound are I mean, this thing was was basically built out of recycled lumber and scrap wood and they have the
siding there, but it's uh it I mean, it's built by human hands and and it does not look like your house or mine.
And and I'm talking to the listeners there. Unless you live in a fort out in the middle of nowhere, it doesn't look
like your house. So, we do get 10 children that are sent out of the compound. So, that that's some progress
here. And by 5:00 p.m., the FBI has taken control. They set up their command post. Caresh is reportedly extremely
agitated, uh, as he one would expect him to be. The FBI agents deploy armored vehicles surrounding basically
surrounding the compound's perimeter and they're they're kind of moving them closer and closer and he becomes David
Caresh becomes extremely agitated when the phone line is cut. So they cut the phone line. He's still able, the
Devidians are still able to have outside communication, but that's only to the negotiators at this point. And the
people doing the negotiating for law enforcement will be the FBI. And at least twice during this day, it's
reported that David Caresh himself says to negotiators that suicide is not being
contemplated by him or the group. So now we go to Tuesday, March 2nd. In the early morning hours, David Kesh makes a
1-hour audio tape of his religious teachings, promising to surrender upon the national broadcast of this tape,
this cassette tape. At 1:30 p.m., the tape is broadcast over the Christian Broadcasting Network. Near 6:00 p.m.
that evening, the word is relayed to negotiations from David Caresh that God has spoken to him and has told him to
wait. So, initially saying we will come out, we will surrender, but then later, hours later, changing that to I've been
instructed by God and we are we're in a holding pattern right now. Well, yeah. And I and I'm not trying to argue cuz
this is a small detail. This case has been covered so much that it's really hard to get every detail I believe
correct because I don't know if we know the details in some of these documentaries that are put together or
these TV series there. There's the Waco TV series which is very good on Paramount which is brilliant. Yeah.
And I I believe they did a follow-up Waco aftermath, which I thought was incredibly well done as as well. Yeah,
it's it's almost like uh season 1 and season two, but they get some of the details wrong here. I think what the the
weight that's happening here is he's supposed to surrender, but then he tells the FBI, "Wait, I don't know if I'm
going to surrender. I have to wait. I need to pray on this." So it's not that God is telling him to wait. He's waiting
for God to tell him what's what is his next move. Yes. And and that is part of it. But again, the information I have is
that that God he says claims that God spoke to him, told him to wait and and what we will see is and the captain's
exactly right. It's a small detail. Who knows who's exactly right here, but what
we will see is throughout this is a standoff that's going to last days and weeks. And throughout the remainder of
the standoff is when we will get that communication from Caresh that's saying I, you know, I'm waiting instruction
from God. I haven't heard anything yet. So, we're still in this holding pattern.
When we get the Wednesday the 3, the FBI tells the Devidians that there. So, there's some elderly people that are
inside the compound and they announced that murder charges for the the the killed ATF agents will that the elderly
people will not face the murder charges. And this is this is got to be considered
or looked at as a tactical way of encouraging them to send out some of the old folks, right? like
go ahead and send them out. we're not charging them with murder here in in this situation because that's one thing
that gets lost in the sauce here when when we talk about I I this is something I was trying to sort out in my own head
and with my own emotions in the past week or so is if I'm sitting inside that compound as a follower knowing that you
know what I could even if the claim is true you know Caresh in in the higherups with the
Devidians would say throughout a lot of this that they that the the followers are allowed to leave. Now, that's up for
debate. You know, that's something that has certainly been debated for for decades now. But that has always been
their statement that they are allowed to leave. They don't want to leave. Their their truth is here. They fear God more
than they fear man. They fear God more than they fear the government or any government entity agency. But trying to
sort this out of going, "Okay, I'm a dude sitting in this compound. ATF agents have been killed in active
duty. I I could stay or I could get up and leave if if what Caresh and and others are saying is true. I could get
up and leave whenever I want. But when I get beyond the walls of this compound, I'm likely facing murder charges. And oh
by the way, it through the course of me walking out the front door, I may get shot to death by those same by those
fellow agents of those fallen agents. Yeah. And if things get go from bad to worse and they don't have anybody else
to pin these ATF agent murders on, you know, I might be going to prison and somebody might be touching my booty
hole. Speaking with negotiators, David Caresh accounts for his failure to surrender as agreed by saying he's
dealing now with his father and not with your bureaucratic system of government.
And he delivers various rambling sermons focusing on such biblical matters as unlocking the seven seals and
interpreting God's intentions about the end of the world. In a late evening conversation, he is expressing how angry
he is about the armored vehicles that are have surrounded the compound and are moving about. Yeah. But this is all
going to work into his benefit because when you have somebody telling you, I'm a prophet and I'm the chosen one. Well,
the biggest thing is belief. And so if some of your members cuz I I think another thing that's not talked about
that often is a lot of people gave up all their possessions and and all their money. And so even if they disagreed
with what was happening with inside their compound, it wasn't just like they could just walk out of there and and
catch a flight to Hawaii to get away. They would have to leave everything. So when this again but again not just leave
everything face murder charges and you know that you if you're an adult you're going to be facing murder charges
because the FBI went out of their way to explain to you all those two elderly women that you got in there. We're not
going to charge them with murder. That's I meant before we are charging everybody
else with with murder. But what I'm saying is even before the siege, okay? You know, so when people go, well, as
David's teachings go from peaceful and and loving and more spiritual and and and good and and more religious-based to
I'm a prophet and abusive and these three to fourhour long sermon rants where he wouldn't let people go to the
bathroom and people weren't allowed to fall asleep and they they had nowhere to go. But once this siege happens and all
this stuff is happening around you, helicopters and tanks and ATF agents and and and and armor basically, and this is
all the stuff that he's been telling you is going to happen. You're seeing it play out. So then there, you know, what
a lot of his followers talked about or a couple of the ones that have survived said there was a sense within the
compound of like, "Oh [ __ ] this guy's been right the whole time. He's been telling us this and now we're seeing
it." And so because a lot of religion is believing in something that you can't see or you can't prove. But when when
you have that belief anyways, you have that faith anyways and now you're seeing it play out in front of your eyes, the
the belief becomes even stronger. The faith becomes even stronger within inside the the followers to to David
Kesh. Well, and the thing too is yeah, like you said, it's this is playing out in front of their very eyes and and on
more than one occasion, we've seen we know from the reports that we reviewed in the first part of our Waco coverage
is that we're told things, fantastical ideas and prophecies by Mr. David Caresh prior to this, you know, that he had he
had impregnated as a 67 68 year old woman that that the baby would be the chosen one. It's some form of it's a
miracle baby and that the uh other portions of you know God's will that the the the damage the arson that was done
to to our property prior this was a judgment by God and a warning from God. So they've they've experienced these
prophecies in the past and as you said, Captain, which is spoton, this is one that's playing out very similarly to how
he's described it months and years prior to to what's going on in 1993. Now, on this day at the end,
remember he's he's very upset that they're moving around these armored vehicles late in the evening. And so,
this is this is a threat to the FBI from David Caresh. He tells them that, you know, what you guys are doing is
terrible. you you know we're the victims here and you guys you you agents out there
you FBI agents are going to have to be the ones you will be the ones that will be looking at the pictures of the little
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[Music] All right, we are back. Cheers, mates. Cheers to you, Colonel. Cheers to you,
Captain. This brings us to Friday, March 5th. We do get somebody else that's able
to leave the compound here. We get 9-year-old Heather Jones. She leaves, but she's wearing a note that is
pinned to her jacket. The note was written by her mother, or at least the reports state that the mother wrote the
note, and the note says once the children are out, the adults will die. The FBI concludes that the Devidians
have one year have a a full one-year supply of food, including abundant military rations. Well, their own
running water system and they are set up to be held up inside that compound for an extended period of time. But the note
pinned to the poor child or at least she was lucky enough to get out would imply
that there's there could be massive death here no matter how this thing shakes out. And the reports at this time too
are that Caresh continues preaching but also threatening violence. The FBI at this point, they got the helicopters.
They're shining the lights on them at night. They're playing music at all hours. They're the the one that was
disturbing to me was one of the survivors were saying it sounded like they were playing audio tape of like
rabbits being slaughtered. slaughtered and these are like war tactics and I think that's why I mean the initial
you're you're bringing basically an army to serve a warrant in in a situation that you didn't have to
serve him in in the first place. I mean it just seems like there was bad decisions after bad decisions and it
it's on both parties. There's bad decisions happening and and torturous, horrible decisions being made by law
enforcement, but also torturous and horrible decisions being made by the individuals in this uh well, not just
David, but other individuals within this religious group. And it's like we said with Ruby Ridge, when nobody's right,
everybody's wrong. And this this is more of that sadly. Now, the what what was right the the the few things that did go
right here is regardless if we agree of any of the tactics by law enforcement and the
negotiators, regardless if we agree with Caresh and any of his decision making on
his side, one thing that I the only thing that I really truly see that is right by both parties is the FBI
negotiators are continually asking Caresh to send people out and we do at least to up to this point
in our timeline we have seen some people sent out. So that's the only good the only smart decisions that really seem to
be being made here. Now on Sunday the 7th, March 7th, they're continuing their negotiations with Kesh. The talks
basically are going round and round in circles. The FBI is refusing to deliver milk to the compound and they say,
"Look, we're you guys are requesting milk. We're not bring" and they're saying, "We need it for the children,
especially the young ones." Unfortunately, they are some very young kids, one two years old kids inside this
structure. And so they're saying, "We need milk for the children." FBI is saying, "We're not bringing you that
unless you release some more people." And Caresh is saying, "Look, all of the children that remain inside of the
compound are my biological descendants." On March 8th, Caresh, it's reported that
his wounds, remember, he was wounded in the gunfire. Yeah. He was shot in his hand, right? And his correct abdomen.
Yeah. And so he it's reported that he is healing well. and not just well better and better and above what was expected
at the time when he became injured. Of course he he's he's so manly he can impregnate an elderly woman.
Of course he's going to heal like Wolverine. Yeah, the FBI does deliver six gallons of milk this day. This is
just the day after saying you we're not going going to unless you release more people. They didn't release anybody, but
a videotape of the children inside the compound was sent out by the Devidians to law enforcement.
Negotiators say that the tape upon review there is concern that if the the tape is released to the media that
Caresh may gain a lot of sympathy. Yeah. Well, what David Kresh was doing, which
I think was smart, is he was filming his followers to to say, "Let's introduce the world to the followers and what they
believe and who they are as people." And so, if this gets out to the world, then
people will not see these individuals as crazy cult members, but they'll see them
as actual humans and families. Yeah. And nobody wants children to be involved in
this. No, but but also nobody wants a 14-year-old to be married to a cult leader or Yes. or or having babies with
the the cult leader. And right, you know, I I think if you look up David Caresh, I believe that it's that it is
said that he fathered 16 children. We know of the one child that he had no involvement with because the mom wanted
nothing to do with him, but so he had 15 kids on top of that. And I don't know why all these guys that want to be cult
leaders also play music. And if you look at like a Charles Manson, if you ever hear a recording of
him, it's questionable on what talent level he has. But I I do have to say I think out of all the crazy cult leaders,
Dave Crush uh might uh hold the top spot as far as guitar talent. And he had a good singing voice.
And that's the uh and that's enough praising the wacko, the top 20 cult leader Casey Kasem Countdown. Yes, we
have David Caresh sits at the top. On Tuesday, March 9th, they cut off the electricity to the compound. Caresh says
he will not negotiate further until the power is restored. They do restore the power. And we get reports here at this
time that the hostage release team for the law enforcement, they're reporting that they are seeing weapons in the
windows of the compound and that firing ports were being cut. So what they did was they covered up the windows for
their own protection because they were taking on gunfire with these large pieces of plywood. Well, on this day,
it's reported again by law enforcement that they are seeing the Devidians cut holes in the plywood, which is an
implication that they attend that they intend to use those as firing ports for their long guns, their rifles, and what
have you. Uh the following day, electricity is temporarily cut off again and there is about four and a half
hours of negotiation but no progress. On Friday the 12th, Janet Reno, who has is a large name in this
story, but it was interesting to learn that she was not I didn't recall this. I mean, you and I were little boys when
this went down. I didn't recall this part of it. I recalled her being a big part of the story, but I didn't know
that she wasn't the attorney general when the standoff started. So, she's sworn in on March
12th and actually takes over. The FBI orders all electricity to be cut off for good because the negotiators wanted
those inside the compound to experience the same wet and cold conditions at night that the tactical personnel was
experiencing outside of the compound. And they also say that they they wanted the just part of that justification,
Captain was cutting the power. It it's going to be very cold at night. It's March. They wanted maximum effect on the
Dividians to be uncomfortable. They because if if they truly were allowed to leave as Caresh is telling them, they're
trying to give good reason for these followers to get up and leave if that's the truth. But they also want to make a
statement here, right? cutting off the power was also making a statement designed to challenge David Caresh's
control of the situation. And and again, the tough thing too is they have former members and former leaders.
They have his former right-hand man basically begging them from the beginning. You you you are playing into
his hands because this is what he's been preaching. So, and I couldn't imagine being one of his followers. And
if you have any doubt about him, I think that doubt goes away when the siege starts.
And I think every day for a lot of these followers, it became stronger. And we do
have, you know, interviews of some of the surviving members that were like, yeah, at first we were afraid, but then
there became this strength of, well, what he's telling us is true. And then people weren't even
afraid to die because their leader has been telling them this is how it's going to go down. And now it's going down this
way. So now we believe what he's saying even more. And he's saying, "Hey, there's a place in the kingdom of heaven
for you because of all this." Of course, because he with these apocalyptic beliefs, they almost all end in a battle
between good and evil. Yeah. And so, of course, you're going to go to heaven because you were fighting for the good
side. You You didn't bow down to evil. On Saturday, March 13, of course, we got the people inside. They're cold. They're
freezing. They have no electricity. The FBI notifies David Caresh that his mother has retained two attorneys on his
behalf to represent him. So, Mr. Caresh, you have legal representation at this time. The following day at
nightfall, the FBI begins to illuminate the compound with bright lights. This is
this is as as the FBI would tell us that this is supposed to have a two-pronged effect. One to disrupt the sleep of the
persons inside of the compound putting additional pressure and stress on them, but two to increase the safety of their
outside teams of the hostage release teams. If anybody that's been in a situation like this where you are in the
dark and there are bright lights that surround you, anything beyond those bright lights, you you usually can't see
any of that. So, effectively, it's creating a wall of light for the agents to hide behind. On Monday, March 15th,
the FBI establishes a modified negotiation strategy, continuing to insist on peaceful resolution, but
refusing to listen to any more of what they are referring to as Bible babble. On Thursday the 18th, the FBI
broadcasts a message to those in the compound over a loud speaker saying that they will be treated fairly if they come
out. Nobody nobody comes out. But on the 19th, the FBI I I guess this is an attempt to address some of the
Devidian's concerns about the the legal matters. The FBI delivers to the compound legal documents and letters
from Caresh's attorneys and some other items. And Caresh says that he is ready to come out and face the music. Two
Devidians. This is Brad Branch and Kevin Whitecliffe. They come out of the compound. The next day, Rita Riddle
comes out of the compound. So, we got three more people that have been released. And then on Sunday, March
21st, we get Victorine Hollingsworth and Anita Richards exit the compound. Glattis Opman, Sheila Martin, James
Lton, and Oilia Santoya come out of the compound as well. In the evening hours, the FBI
begins playing very loud music, including Tibetan chants over the loudspeaker. This is at some point, it
morphs into what the captain said about the the rabbits being slaughtered, which
is sounds horrific. Well, I could be wrong, but some of these individuals are coming out on their own. And some of
them are being released, but the the that small group that you just talked about, I think they were actually
released by David to be like talking heads. Hey, we're going to release you so then you can talk to law enforcement
directly and you can be kind of um the talking heads for our group. On Tuesday, March 23rd, at 10:00 a.m., a individual
named Living Stone Fagan leaves the compound. This is going to be the last one during the standoff to leave the
compound. And we have Assistant US Attorney William Johnston of Waco writes a letter to Janet Reno complaining about
the FBI's handling of the scene, especially the moving of the vehicles around the compound. So, he's at the
local level and he's saying, "Look, I don't really like what I see or how the FBI's conducting themselves at the
scene." At 10 p.m., the FBI shines flood lights on the compound and plays over the loudspeakers tapes of of previous
negotiations. And they're now they're also playing messages from those who had exited the compound. On Wednesday the
24th, the FBI, they're back to their tactics of playing Tibetan chants, Christmas music, and and all kinds of
shenanigans. The Devidians refuse to talk. At the daily press briefing, the FBI escalates its verbal assault against
David Caresh, calling him a liar and a coward. The next day, there's an FBI ultimatum. 10 to 20 people must leave by
4 p.m. or some action will be taken. At 4 p.m., armored vehicles move into the compound and remove uh motorcycles and
golf carts and go-karts that belong to the Devidians. When they cut the electricity, it was cold. We know they
were it was cold because the Devidians were complaining that they were freezing inside. And we already talked about how
this structure was put together and how it was constructed. And so it's not this
structure that's built to to keep people warm inside of there. So what they were
doing with these these hay bales, they the bales of hay, they were stacking them along the the window uh sorry along
the walls inside almost creating like a insulation, right, to to help them keep warm. And then the other part of this
too is look, David Caresh, and I'm I'm not I I'm not going out of my way to throw him any compliments here, but he
was not a dumb guy. He was probably pretty brilliant. Uh maybe brilliantly wrong, but but brilliant.
He was evil genius in a sense. Yeah, he he was quite intelligent. But then I also wonder here, Captain, are we at
this point where this dude is so far gone that on some level does he you you talk about, well, if this goes good, how
how do I come out of this? If this goes bad, how do we come out of this? I have to wonder too if at this point is this
dude so far gone that he he may believe that he's right that that he is in the right and doing the right thing and
doing what's in the best interest of him and his group all at the same time. Well, again, because you have these
followers, I mean, he's taking some of his followers children as his wives and they're allowing it. So yeah, the more
you're as his church wives. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what do you call that? Um, he's living in an echo chamber. So the echo
chamber is just telling him, reinforcing him for years that he is right, for years that he is the prophet for years.
I mean, when these individuals, whether it's because of the abuse or because they have issues themselves, to be able
to stand up in a in a group of people and have them listen to you with no bathroom breaks or anything for hours
upon hours. And a lot of these individuals just hanging on to every word he says and every belief he has and
pinching their pee pees so they don't wet themselves, right? like a little boy. God said pinch your pee, you know. And I
would just I would let it flow and just water myself and if anybody looks at me with a side eye, I just it was God's
will. The you know, Mr. Caresh wanted me to listen to his teachings and it was God's will. I was bound to wet myself at
some point. Yeah. Jesus turned water into wine. I'm turning water into PP. I'm turning my jeans into stank. Um the
So this is right around the time where I believe that they they start remember they started using the armored vehicle
to tear down vehicles to tear down some of the fencing that was around the the compound. Yeah. And and also putting
these vehicles very close to the compound itself. And I think this is when they're making this decision that
this is not going to end well. period. And maybe we're going to be the ones to end it. Well, and this has got
to make the guys, the people inside, the families inside terrified. And of course, uh, Caresh at this point is is
reminding the FBI, hey, I'm still I we have no intentions of dying in here, and I'm still waiting for the word of God,
waiting for word from God as to what we are to be doing. Now, over the course of
a couple days, David Caresh and one of the attorneys that his mother got for him, they are allowed to meet face to
face. Uh there's some pretty famous photos of this activity as well, where you can see David Caresh and the
attorney standing talking face to face for hours at the front door of the compound. On March 30th, on a hill
approximately 3 miles away from the compound, there's a large number of folks gathered to observe what was
happening at the Mount Carmel compound. We have journalism student Michelle Roch
who interviews a Golf War veteran, 24year-old US Army veteran Timothy James McVey.
He is there handing out bumper stickers and proun rights pamphlets with slogans on them like when guns are outlawed I
will become an outlaw. He told the student reporter the government is afraid of the guns people have because
they have to have control of the people at all times. Once you take away the guns you can do anything to the people.
You give them an inch and they take a mile. I believe we are slowly turning into a socialist government. The
government is continually growing bigger and more powerful and the people need to
prepare to defend themselves against government control. On April 1st, the two attorneys spend the day inside the
compound. So now the attorneys are allowed inside by the FBI. The uh Devidians say that they will leave. They
the attorneys go back to the FBI and say, "This is what we heard. This is what we were told. The Devidians are
saying that they're going to leave either tomorrow, April 2nd, or on April 10th. This has something to do with
Passover and the observance of Passover. Um, I I don't quite know the details of
that, but we do know that on Sunday, April 4th, the lawyers meet again with David Caresh and reiterate that everyone
will come out after Passover. Now, on April 5th, the Devidians observe Passover. On April 7th, David Caresh
refuses to confirm an exit date. Hostage release team commander Richard Rogers proposes a tear gas plan to
force the Devidians out of the structure. Yeah. One of the most interesting interviews was with the FBI
negotiator because they're trying to to negotiate with somebody where they're giving him what he wants and then he's
basically changing his mind. Well, I'll give you this if you give me this. But then he doesn't follow through with his
end of the bargain the majority of the time. And then they're getting pressure from anybody that's on the tactical side
going, let's stop negotiating with this Yahoo and let's let's bring force. So, it'd be a very tough place to be in as
far as the negotiators standpoint. On Friday, April 9th, David Caresh sends a letter to the FBI saying, "The heavens
are calling you to judgment." and he actually sends a series of letters to the FBI over the course of the next
couple of days. We get two FBI experts, uh, psychological experts from the FBI that analyze these letters and they walk
away with the conclusion that David Caresh was possibly a psychotic and he had actually truly had no intention of
of leaving voluntarily from Mount Carmel. The FBI finalizes plans to use tear gas and
seeks Janet Reno's approval on their new course of action. Sunday, April 11th is
Easter Sunday and there there are some negotiations. There are some talks, but they don't go anywhere on Easter Sunday.
On the 12th, the tear gas plan is presented to Janet Reno not as an allout assault on the Dividians, but as a
tactic whereby gas will be inserted in stages periodically into the compound. Initially into only one small area of
the compound. The goal of this, obviously, if you're only putting it into one small section of the compound,
is to not only drive them out of that area, but away from that area and encouraging them to exit through an
uncontaminated portion of the compound. On the 13th, for most of the afternoon, David Caresh, he's he's on the phone
with negotiators and he is Bible thumping them essentially, right? He's using that what what the FBI
was referring to as Bible babble. And he starts reminding them that he is still not doesn't know when they will come out
and he's not coming out until God tells him to do so. On the 14th, we get we get some this is where
things start to shift a little bit. And the and really in full review of this here, Captain, when I reviewed this
part, part of me, I mean, of course, we all wish that it didn't go down the way that it went down, right? I I've not
talked to one person that's like, "They did the right thing." And and when I say
they, I mean either side, right? This is the part that makes me wonder, could it
have been possible to just wait a little bit longer and maybe they would have come out? Because on the 14th, and this
plays this goes toward their teaching and to and to what they follow and what they believe. David Caresh tells the FBI
that we're look, we're not going to we will surrender eventually, but we are not
going to surrender until I have written a manuscript that explains the seven seals on the 16th. So
this is 2 days later. Caresh tells negotiators, you know, just be patient. I have completed the manuscript on the
first seal. So it there are seven of them. It would it would seem to me that if he's telling the truth on these
matters, then it's it could be a 14-day waiting period. If in fact he's completed this manuscript in a two-day
time period, well, he's got six more to go. And if he could do it at the same pace, we might be 12 days away from
people walking out of this compound. Yeah. But again, it's difficult situation for law enforcement because
this Yahoo has been lying to you the whole time. Correct. And he is doing what law enforcement hates. He's
controlling the situation. Law enforcement cannot stand that. And in fact, at times it's downright dangerous
for law enforcement to not be in control of the situation. Now, Janet Reno does reject the tear gas plan on the 16th. I
don't know if that is in direct relation to Caresha telling them that he's making
progress on his manuscript. The next day, there's an individual um it was a man, his name Lewis. It was not a branch
devidian but somehow I guess snuck into the compound early during this standoff.
I have no idea why anybody would want to do something like this and put themselves directly in harm's way. But
on this day he leaves the compound. This is also the same day that Janet Reno approves the FBI's tear gas plan. But
she remember she what's going on here is she basically states I'll leave the details and the
tactical decisions up to those at Waco. Right. I do believe this Lewis guy was actually a agent that they had infantry
the compound. He was if if I'm thinking of the same guy that would make a lot of
more sense. Yeah. So he was like he was in there before the siege even happened.
he was pretending to to be a member because what you have to remember is yes the the guns that's a concern but when
you have all these other reports of uh child abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, they had to be able to confirm
this on some level. And so that's who I believe this Lewis guy is that you know what I think you're exactly right that
he I I what I think we have here is if I remember correctly, they didn't identify
him as an undercover agent until well after right the events of Waco. And part of that is you you
know the these entities should not be in the business of outing their undercover
agents. On Sunday, April 18th, Janet Reno briefs Bill Clinton on their CS gas plan of forcing the Devidians out. The
president concurs with Reno, but ask questions about assuring the children will be safe, but adds it, you know,
it's your decision. You're in control here. He does push. Clinton did push and remind
the the parties involved here and the parties that the in power that he was still hoping that it could be negotiated
and whatever problems or and the murders that took place, whatever accountability
needed to be dealt out with along with punishments, he wanted to see this play out in the court
system, not in in a in a war type setting. This portion of the story is is heavily debated, but it was well
reported, especially early on after after the events of Waco. So, I didn't want to skip over it here, Captain, but
there were reports that the So, on the 18th, armored vehicles, they continue to to get closer and closer to the
compound, right? They're working their way in. They're they're closing in. And they even clear out David Caresh's
personal vehicle and a bunch of other vehicles that were in front of the compound. They remove those and the FBI
is warning the Devidians to stay out of the tower. They're seeing them up in the
tower. The FBI reports as the reports go. are holding up children in the windows and one window
um there's a sign that says flames await and then that takes us to the sad tragic and
horrifically unfortunate events of the following day April 19th 1993 from midnight till about 5:30 a.m.
Everything's quiet. There's no reports of even blaring music or sounds previously used by the
FBI. At about 10 minutes to 6 a.m., federal agents reportedly call the compound and inform the members
to give up or they will be gassed. And I think their thought was, we have these tanks. We're going to
hit parts of their building with these tanks, not not with explosives, and then we're going to
start shooting in this gas, and we're going to see a flood of people leave. I hope that was their intention, and I
hope that was their hopes as well. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So what you would have is you would use the tanks to basically
bust in or bust through a portion of a wall, a perimeter wall of the fortress, and
then send in the gas, fire in the gas, and draw them out, force them out. at 6:00 am there's a Department of Public
Safety officer uh that is warning remember we have those people that are just there in observance right you have
the media that has gathered you have Timothy McVey and other people that have gathered and so these people are all
approximately two to three miles away but they're being warned to take cover and to get the hell out of here because
you see those tanks up there we're about to start using them and we don't know exactly what's going to happen and we
don't want any members of the public to be injured or worse. At 604, an armored vehicle smashes through the front wall
of the compound just left of the front door, leaving a hole about 8 ft or sorry, 8 ft in height and 10 feet wide.
At 6:15, an ambulance rushes toward the compound with lights flashing. At 6:55, authorities call the Hillrest
Baptist Medical Center in Waco and they say, "Be on alert. Be on alert." They they're notifying them, "Hey, we think
we're going to be sending you a whole bunch of people real soon." Right at 8:00 a.m., an armored vehicle with a
large battering arm rips into the second floor of the compound. And minutes later, another hole is punched into the
backside of the compound. At 80514, hospital staffers are called in and four additional doctors are called
in. Right? Remember, this is still a ready response team essentially is being built at the local hospital. At 9:00
a.m., President Clinton says he has been briefed on the assault and the US Attorney General Janet Reno has given
the go-ahead for the tactical plan. And at 9:20 a.m., an armored vehicle returns
to the compound and bashes another hole in the front wall of the compound, taking out the front door. At 10:30, FBI
special agent Ricks says that the continued ramming of the building and the introduction of tear gas is intended
as the next logical step to ending the 51-day standoff. The agents in the armored vehicles are met with 65 to 80
gunshots from inside the compound as they approach. He says agents did not return fire. No one was injured. He says
the compound was rammed 10 or 10 10 or 11 times in the original assault, tearing holes in walls and the roof.
Each ramming met with 10 to 12 shots. Again, that report is coming from the FBI, so take that for what you will. but
also when they're interviewing AFT agents, FBI agents, and because you we have to remember there's there's also a
bunch of followers that are on the outside now watching this play out in real time, live on the news, and
everybody's wondering, why aren't they coming out? Where are the people? What the hell is going on in there? At 5
minutes after noon, a vehicle hits the corner of the compound, knocking another sizable hole in it. 5 minutes after
that, flames and smoke are seen pouring from the compound. High winds are whipping the building and fanning the
flames. And one thing that is reported to us constantly is in regard to the the gas, the CS
gas and then the flames being seen is they do they do constantly remind us about the the the time period, right?
That the the window of time between when we stopped firing gas into the compound
and when the flames actually were seen. And I believe that that those statements
are that there was roughly one hour between those two events because truly look there's a lot
of opinions about what happened, who's who should be facing more blame, what side should be facing more blame here.
But really truly, I I've I've reviewed this thing and reviewed this thing and looked for every bit of information out
there. And some of it is is one-sided. Some of it is very opinionated. Some of it says that the Devidians did nothing
wrong and that they were murdered and and tortured and and killed. And then there are other
opinions out there that that was the the FBI had to do something and the Devidians were were
crazy or just led by this psychotic crazy individual that that let his followers take the
fall alongside of him, which we've seen other c in other cults. We've seen it time and time again throughout history.
So, it's not hard to believe or too terribly difficult to believe that this may have happened again here. But really
truly, Captain I the only thing I feel confident saying when we want to talk about things
like blame or or ultimately who was to blame the most is there's three scenarios here and all three of them are
plausible. a that the FBI murdered these extreme Christian people who just wanted
to be left alone and and carry out their their their beliefs, their belief system. War II. The Devidians were a
bunch of wackos in Waco, led by a wacko who convinced them just stay inside and let's we'll burn to death and
martyrdom. Or the other option is that the FBI never intended for the the building to to go up in flames. The
Devidians never set fire to the structure and there was a spark somewhere in that building. And we we
talked about the structure. We talked about how it was built. We talked about the hay
barrels. We talked about them firing CS gas into the building, which is not I want to be clear here, my general
understanding. And there's several ways that you can there's several different chemical cocktails that can make up tear
gas. And depending on what kind they were using or what chemical com cocktail they were
using, this is not highly flammable stuff here. However, it is somewhat combustible. It might not be
easily or readily lit uh on fire, but it can be lit on fire. So, I mean, it's I mean, look,
it's I I may maybe I'm holding back a few opinions here, but I know a lot of people out there
have strong opinions one way or the other on this, but I think all of us can agree that this was a horrible outcome
to a bad situation and nobody wanted it to end this way. I I hope that I really do hope that. And
I mean that when I say nobody wanted to end this way, I'm not talking about people listening to to us to our
presentation. I'm not talking about people that were sitting at home on their couches watching this play out on
the 6:00 and 11:00 news back in 1993. I'm talking about David Caresh and I'm talking about the
negotiators for the FBI and the people that make decisions, good or bad, on behalf of the FBI. Those are the
people that I'm saying I hope nobody wanted any kind of outcome like this at all. On April 19th, the fire at the
Mount Carmel compound, it completely destroyed the compound. According to the FBI, FBI agent Steve Schneider, David
Caresh's top aid shot and killed Caresh and then himself. 76 people died in the fire, including 20 children. ATF agents
Conway Leblau, Todd McCan, Robert Williams, and Steven Willis. They were killed prior to the
fire. They were killed when the standoff started. Meanwhile, many miles away, convicted cop killer, murderer, and
white supremist Richard Wayne Snell was still being held at the Tucker unit at a
maximum security prison in Jefferson County, Arkansas. His appeals were running out and his ex execution day, a
date with a needle injected into the veins of his right arm accompanied by a lethal dose of the Arkansas state death
penalty was drawing closer and closer every day. [Music] For everything true crime, check out
true crimegar.com. Make sure you sign up on the mailing list and check out our merchandise. It's a great way to support
the show and get something cool in return. And until next week, be good, be kind, and don't leave.
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Part 4 of 6

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The Waco siege began on February 28, 1993, when the ATF raided Mount Carmel Center. The ensuing gun battle resulted in the deaths of four ATF agents and six Branch Davidians. This chaos kicked off a 51 day standoff that ended in the deaths of many of the Branch Davidians including women, children, and leader David Koresh.

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Brief Summary

The episode covers the Waco siege, detailing the ATF raid, Koresh's negotiations, and the tragic fire that ended the standoff.

Key points

The Waco Siege Begins. On February 28, 1993, ATF agents attempt to execute warrants against David Caresh, leading to a disastrous gun battle.
The Compound's Layout. The Branch Davidian compound is described as a fortress-like structure, complicating the standoff.
Negotiations and Tensions Rise. As the standoff continues, David Caresh's communications with negotiators become increasingly erratic.
Child's Note Signals Danger. A 9-year-old girl leaves the compound with a note warning of adult deaths.
Negotiations Continue. Despite ongoing negotiations, the FBI refuses to deliver milk for the children inside.
FBI's Tactics Escalate. The FBI cuts off electricity to the compound to increase pressure on the Devidians.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

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1:18WatchApr 9, 2025

Tension

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