Episode 748: The Murder of Kitty Genovese | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos. I'm Ash. >> And I'm Elena. >> And this is Morbid. This is morbid. >> It's morbid at 2:00.
>> Yeah. I've had falafel and hummus. >> I've had falafel and garlic dip. >> Hell yeah.
>> And I'm having a little lollipop. >> Oh my god. >> Having a little sodie break. I'm having
a little strawberries and cream Dr. Peppery. >> I hate I hate to admit how good those
actually are. >> They are. They're so good. >> Yeah. >> They're not extra like they're not super
sweet. They're not like it. >> No. >> Uh but yeah, it's been, you know, it's been it's it's been a pretty good day
today. >> It's been such a good day. I'm having a little bit of an afternoon. >> Not in the world, but in the pod lab.
>> No, not in the world. >> Clarify that. >> Pretty awful right now. But the pod lab
day has been solid. >> It has been. I started the day with a big ass mason jar coffee, so I knew it
was going to be a good one. >> Oh, see that's smart. >> I'm crashing a little bit, but that's
what the lollipop is for. >> Going to ride that lollipop. >> Going to ride that.
>> Oh, you know what? I started my day off really well. >> What did you start your day off doing?
>> So, you know how I've been telling you guys like do you know >> Joy just but like don't be hard on
yourself like do it small. So, I'm not being hard on myself is what I'm saying. And so, I was like I need to start
waking up earlier like before the house. I got in a good habit of that and then I
fell out of it. And so now I'm like, "Okay, my problem is I go too hard too fast. I put too much pressure on
myself." So I said, >> "And that's not how you habit stack. >> That is not how you habit stack." And
I've learned this. So I said, "Okay, for a couple weeks, get used to waking up early. Don't do anything productive when
you wake up early. Get your coffee, sit quietly, do something that's enjoyable. Don't feel like you have to be
productive. Just get used to that early morning thing." So I'm in the middle of that and I'm doing well, everybody.
>> Good job. >> And this morning I said, "You don't have to be productive yet. It's not next
week. Do this for a week. We may start on Monday. >> I made my coffee and then I sat down. I
said, I should watch something because like no one's awake to be loud. >> And you actually could have watched
something [ __ ] horrifying. >> I almost did. >> It's surprising that you didn't
actually. >> Well, I here's the funny part. So, I go into my like, you know, my like Netflix
or Prime and I'm looking through it and I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to watch a horror movie cuz like no one's awake. I
can do this." >> That's what I would have expected. So, I was going to watch like Scream or
something like I was like just a comfort thing. And then I flipped by and I saw Center Stage.
>> A great pick. >> The movie Center [ __ ] Stage. The one with Jiraqua's Canned Heat.
>> Yes. >> Yeah, of course. >> That one. >> I haven't seen I probably haven't seen
Center Stage since you were pregnant and we watched it at the apartment. >> That's the last time I watched it. So
that was before that was when I was in high school. >> Earlier I was like, "Oh my god, I
haven't seen that movie in like a few years." I'm like, "That's literally 10 years almost."
>> That's I saw it and something deep within my It's from 2000. It is a 26y old movie. I saw this when it came out.
That's we watched this like Debbie will tell you, we watch this constantly, >> constantly.
>> Constantly. And I saw it and something deep in my soul said, "Bitch, you watch
that right now." >> See, now I have a question for you. I I think I know the answer and I think we
vary. Out of these two iconic dance movies, which do you pick? Center Stage or Save the Last Dance?
>> Center Stage. >> Center Stage. Center. >> Save the Last Dance is my absolute favorite.
>> Save the Last Dance is great. >> Oh, I might watch nothing from that chair routine. I will take nothing away
from that. >> You better not. >> Nothing. >> Oh, wow. Um, it's iconic. >> Oh, wow. Like, I can't just move on from
that. Maybe I'll wake up early and watch that tomorrow. >> I'm telling you, it started my day off,
right? Cuz it was the nostalgia that this movie brought me. Like the girl who plays Moren was in all those movies
during that time period. What is her name? I need to find it now because I I saw her and I said, "Oh, you and me.
We've been through so much." >> You and Moren. >> Me and Moren. Because she was in 10
Things I Hate About You. She was in Drive Me Crazy. Remember that banger of a film?
>> Oh my god. crossover with Center Stage and Save the Last Dance. 10 Things I Hate About You.
>> There you go. Julia Styles. We got it. Who is it that plays Moren? I'm looking
it up right now. Susan May Pratt. >> Ah. Oh, wait. >> She was the girl who was obsessed with
Shakespeare, like in love with Shakespeare and 10 Things I Hate About You. >> Yep. Yep.
>> And then Yeah. And she's like the [ __ ] in Drive Me Crazy. >> She's in so many things of that time.
And then she just went away. And I read and of course because I am who I am as a
human as I'm watching this I was like what is that lady up to right now and I looked and I found an article where she
was like yeah I was in all these things in the 2000 like early 2000s I was in like every teen movie and then nothing
happened after that. >> Damn. >> And I was like Susan May justice for Susan May Pratt
>> Mhm. >> is what I say because she's really tough people with three first names.
>> Yeah. People with their first names get a get a bad rap. Also, fun little fact
that my my hyperfixation journey tell me everything. >> She had no ballet experience before
center stage blew my [ __ ] mind. I know >> that's actually >> and she played the star ballet dancer.
>> Yeah, that's actually nuts. >> Yeah. So, there's that. Zoe Sana's in that and she is
>> a goddess. >> I got to watch this again. I haven't seen this in so long. >> Guys, I highly recommend watching Center
Stage at 5:30 in the morning. >> Check it >> with a hot coffee. Let's [ __ ] go,
girls. >> I highly recommend Feeling Blue. Watch Center Stage at 5:30 in the morning.
>> She's been in a really good mood today, folks. >> I have. It set me right. >> Set me right. I may watch Drive Me Crazy
tomorrow morning. Drive me crazy. That would be a reckless way to start off your morning.
>> It absolutely would. >> It did in the best way. >> I'm ready. I'm ready for it.
>> I don't think I could watch um Save the Last Dance first thing in the morning
because No, that's not a first. You don't need to cry. >> No, not first thing in the morning. You
don't need deep emotions. You need >> teen nostalgia is what you need. >> Yeah. I just woke up from a really scary
dream this morning. >> You did? >> That there was like a robber in your house on the camera.
>> But then we were also getting dinner with Patricia Atel from Southern Charm. >> Wild
>> with Miss and I was lost in Miss Pat's house and I couldn't get to anybody. >> I would get lost in that house.
>> That house is gorgeous. >> No, that's one of those not my house but I'd know my way around houses. That's
honestly. Yeah, that house. >> Gorgeous. >> Obsessed with that house. >> It's kind of just like on the road, I
guess. Like people have driven past it and they're like, it's literally just like right there.
>> That's just >> Not to triangulate Miss Pat's location. >> I mean, she It's on Southern TV.
>> It's a pretty It's a pretty uh iconic house. >> It is. >> Um but yeah, and it was like the burglar
from the Sims. >> No, but it was a lot scarier than that. It was It was dressed like that, but it
didn't have the big uh what's the thing over it? >> Plumb bob. >> Yeah, it did not have a plumb bob.
Remember when you had a plumb bob? >> Yeah, it was scary. And it was saying creepy things into the camera and I was
trying to get to you, but I was like, "Miss Pat." >> I hate that. I mean, you get lost in
Miss Pats, you know? What can you do? >> I wouldn't. But it was in your old apartment, which was like super weird. I
was very transported and then I I hate a dream that you wake up from like first thing in the morning like that
>> where it's like I wasn't like I didn't wake up like shrieking or anything, but
it was like >> just like unsettling. >> Yeah. I don't like that. >> Yeah. And then I ran into my neighbor
who was like the nicest lady and she was so put together and I was wearing I one
hadn't brushed my teeth yet. I was wearing cherry pants. >> Yeah. >> And Drew shoes.
>> Hell yeah. >> It was really embarrassing. >> That's why I'm really happy that it
seems like my whole neighborhood is very um the same in the morning. >> This woman
>> feels like we're all just rolling out there in some sweatpants. I think she has like a a job to go to that's not
like >> that she has to like look nice. >> Yeah. Like I think she has to like look
nice and she looked great. In fact, I told her she had great loafers >> while I was wearing my husband shoes.
>> That's nice. >> My husband's van clampers. >> But you know what? You threw a compliment to somebody first thing in
the morning. I did. You started her day off right. >> I did. And Doolo's day started off
right. She [ __ ] loves our neighbors dog. >> So there you go. >> Yeah. You know, you do what you can.
>> So you know that's that's that's starting your day. >> Starting your day with us. Maybe you're
starting your day with us right now and you're like, "Wow, this is ridiculous." >> Like, "Holy [ __ ] what are you guys
doing?" Well, >> um, you know, if you need one more thing to do, maybe go pre-order the Butcher
Legacy, um, the third book, my series. You get it at butcherleacy.com. You can get it anywhere you want.
>> I believe there are still some signed copies left at Barnes & Noble, but there's a limited amount. So, go, Those
are only at Barnes & Noble right now, the signed copies. So, but, you know, go grab them wherever you want. And there's
special editions with fun illustrations and sprayed edges. >> There is. That's fun. So, go get
whatever one you feel you are drawn to. But for all, >> you know, >> um, also check out, we are, if you're
listening to the rewatcher, continue to do so, please. And if you're not, what the heck?
>> Come on. True Blood so fun. >> True Blood is really, really good. >> We're having a blast.
>> We are going to be covering next Wednesday the penultimate episode and then obviously the season finale the
week after that. So, tune in. And you know, it's going to be awesome because Ash is going to find out the
identification of a serial killer on True Blood. >> And I have so many theories >> and I can't wait for her to find out.
>> I'm so excited, but I'm also so nervous. I hate being wrong. >> I know. I'm excited for you to find out.
>> Okay. >> Uh but yeah, join us over there. It's a lot of fun. And I think that's
>> I I shouldn't say that's all business, but you know, >> that's all our business and pleasure, I
would say. >> Check it. >> Um but let's get into the case, shall we? >> We shall. So the case I have today for
us tell me >> is the murder of Kitty Genevese. >> Oh I'm I did take a psychology class in
college. >> Bystander effect. >> So I am familiar with this. >> Yep. A lot of people should be familiar
with this. If you took any psychology classes or any true crime or true crime any criminal justice classes
>> uh anything like that in school usually they they bring this up. Um, so this case is wild.
>> It's very tragic. >> It's very sad and very tragic and trigger warning because it's like very
brutal. Um, so let's talk about first who Kitty Genevies was. >> Katherine Kitty Genevies was born July
7th, 1935. She was born in the Park Slope neighborhood of Brooklyn, New York. She
was the oldest of five children born to Vincent and Rachel Genevies. Um, of the five Genevese children, quote, "Kitty
was the talker, brighteyed and full of pep." >> Oh, I love that. >> Uh, the family was definitely not well
off financially, and you know, life could be a little difficult. They're in a cramped Brooklyn apartment together.
That's a lot of people. >> Yeah. Think about Yeah. And think about New York apartments right now, and
there's seven people in there. >> No. >> Yeah. Uh, but they generally like they got along with each other and they cared
for one another best they could. It seemed like a good existence. >> That's nice. By the time she reached
high school in the fall of 1949, Kitty was definitely one of the more popular girls in school. She was killing it
>> and she was starting to get attention from the uh boys in her class. >> Of course, you know,
>> we love love. >> Uh one of her former classmates, Angelo Lanzone, said Kitty was attractive, but
there was more to her than looks. Kitty had charm. >> Oh, honey. >> Which Angelo
>> Angelo >> I love Angelo. Just being like she was real pretty, but she was also awesome.
>> I think she's a cancer, so she's definitely deep. She's a chama. >> Yeah. >> Uh and while Kitty may not have been the
best student among her peers at the time, she did excel in courses like English and music, she seemed like she
had a creative spirit to her. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Um and she was very liked by her
teachers. She was liked by other students. She was just like killing it. >> Kitty Kitty.
>> So, by the time Kitty finished high school in 1953, New York was changing. It was just changing as a city and there
were fears over rising crime rates. It was just becoming wild. Uh, not long after she graduated from high school,
her mother was walking home one afternoon and witnessed a shooting in the street in broad daylight.
>> Jesus. >> According to author Kevin Cook, Rachel Genevies practically walked into the
shooting. She was close enough to see the victim's blood filling the sidewalk cracks.
>> Oh, that'll change you. >> Yeah. Rachel's one and only experience as a witness to violent crime was more
than enough. She has a whole family to take care of. >> Yeah. In that summer, Vincent bought a
small ranch house in New Cananan, Connecticut, and began making arrangements to move the family to the
suburbs about 50 mi north of the city. He told the rest of the family, "It's safer there. Nice people."
>> I think that was happening a lot during this time, like people were moving outside of the city city
>> for sure. And obviously, the move to New Canaan was supposed to like bring them
out of this city that they saw as having rising crime rates. But Vincent also hoped that the new environment and
higher, you know, the higher caliber of community is what he felt it was, would encourage Kitty especially, to meet a
nice man and get married, >> have some kids, >> you know, and to that point, Kitty had
gone on a handful of dates with boys at school, but never anything serious that lasted more than a few dates. And in
truth, the thought of dating, quote, filled her with troubling longings and queasiness.
>> She's like, >> she's like, "No, not for me." So to Vincent and Rachel's great surprise,
when they announced the move to Connecticut, Kitty said, "No, I'm not moving." Hello. Yeah. She frankly told
her parents, "I can't go. I feel free in New York. I'm alive here." A >> And at first, the thought of their
daughter staying behind in the city was out of the question. She was an adult at
this point, and you know, if she wanted to live on her own, there was really nothing they could do to stop it.
>> They could try to convince her, but you can't stop it. >> Oh, that's got to be so rough. Cuz
they're like, "Wait, come with us because we feel like it's safer." And then this happens.
>> So she promised them she would find a safe neighborhood and a good job. She would call them regularly and take the
train to New Canaan on weekends to visit. >> All right. I mean, really, what more can
you ask her to do? >> And although Rachel and Vincent still didn't like the idea of leaving her
behind, Kitty's assurances seemed genuine and eventually they gave their blessing and were like, "Fine."
>> Now, in that first year on her own, Kitty stayed in the extra room in her grandfather's apartment and found work
as a secretary at an insurance company. And in time, she'd saved enough money to
move out, and by the end of 1954, she'd found an apartment of her own. Um, her job paid enough, but it kind of lacked
the social aspect that Kitty had been hoping for. So, just a few months after moving into the apartment, she quit her
job and found a new job waiting tables. When the job as a server fell through, she found another, this time as a
hostess at an Italian restaurant. But that, too, really wasn't what she wanted. And it was only by chance that
after the hostess job came to an end, Kitty finally found what she had been looking for when she answered an ad
looking for a bartender at the neighborhood bar in Hollis Clean Queen. >> Like you said, she's chatty. She's got
like a genetic. >> Yeah. And as a bartender, the money she made in tips was more than enough to
support herself. >> Yeah. >> But just as important, the bar in the neighborhood provided a community that
she was looking for, especially since her family had moved to Connecticut. >> Restaurant crews get so close.
>> Really tight. And in time, she moved up from bartender to manager and began settling into life in Queens.
>> Wow. Good for her to be so young and to make moves like that. Like legit money
moves. >> Yeah, she's moving on up now. As promised, Kitty kept in regular touch
with her parents. She visited as often as she could. She She was telling the truth.
>> Yeah. >> But Rachel and Vincent remained troubled that now in her mid20s, Kitty still
hadn't married or even dated someone seriously. They're just being parents. >> They're from a different generation. In
1959, to appease her parents, Kitty accepted a date with a man from Connecticut. Seeing how happy it made
her parents, she didn't have the heart to tell them she wasn't at all interested in them.
>> So, she let the relationship go on. And later that year, they got married. >> Oh, no.
>> So, she like really appeased her parents with that. >> She sure did. >> Just two months later, though, the
marriage was an old it just wasn't going to work. >> Just wasn't going to work. >> Oh, Kitty. Kitty's, you know, end of her
marriage was a serious disappointment to what I didn't mention before is her deeply Catholic parents.
>> You didn't I don't got that idea. Yeah, I didn't mention it because I thought it
was implied, but u but it was not to be the last embarrassment suffered by Rachel and Vincent Genevese in their
eyes. In 1961, less than two years after the enelment, uh, Kitty and one of her co-workers at the bar, Doueri,
were arrested for bookmaking for taking bets on the horse races from patrons at the bar.
>> Damn. >> Bets are also a big bar. >> I remember those football squares. Did you ever get those? Yeah, football
squares are huge. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. And it's a little different, you know, with horses.
>> Well, and it's like the offense is relatively minor. >> Yeah. in even in the law's eyes. I mean,
and it resulted in a $50 fine. >> I was literally just gonna say, "Is it just a fine?"
>> But they both lost their jobs. >> Oh, which sucks. Despite whatever embarrassment Kitty's parents felt that
they they got from that, she managed to land on her feet and she quickly found a
new job tending bar at E's 11th hour, a neighborhood bar in Hollis, and moved into a a motel room a few blocks away.
>> Okay. So, a few years later, Kitty's life would again change dramatically, this time for the better.
>> Oh. Um, however, she explained the failed marriage to her parents in 1959. It almost certainly wasn't the truth.
>> Okay. However, she had said was happening. The fact was the queasiness that Kitty had always felt when it came
to dating and her failed, you know, quote unquote failed marriage >> was likely due to the fact that she did
not have an interest in men. >> Yeah, I was starting to wonder. >> Like a romantic interest in men. Of
course, in the late 1950s, early 1960s, coming out as a lesbian would have had serious consequences. She comes from a
deeply Catholic family. >> Exactly. And it would range from being disowned by her family to being
arrested. >> Yeah. >> Or involuntarily placed in a mental health facility. >> Yeah. [ __ ] was [ __ ] wild.
>> So, Kitty had good reason to keep that to herself. >> Uh whether or not she chose to reveal
that side of herself to her family, she wasn't entirely closeted. And on occasion she would visit the
underground, you know, gay and lesbian bars in Greenwich Village. So, she was at least like exploring that side of
her, which like good for her. >> And it was at one of these bars called the Swing Rendezvous, which is a great
bar, >> uh, that Kitty met the first person who she felt a true romantic connection
with, Maryanne Zalano. She was a few years younger than Kitty, but she'd been on her own since the age of 16 and had
been supporting herself in New York ever since, which takes a tough >> chick badass essentially. Like if you
can make it in New York from 16 years old. >> Yeah, that's a You're a straightup New
Yorker. >> One spring night in 1963, Maryanne stopped into the swing rendevous for a
drink and was approached by a woman at the bar. The woman asked, "Don't I know you from somewhere?"
>> Oh, I love it. And as opening lines go, it was definitely, you know, a tired one. So Maryannne was like, I don't
think so. And she kind of just, >> you know, had been hearing that from the age of 16 onward.
>> No. And she kind of brushed it off as a, you know, a failed pickup attempt. Yeah.
But the woman just smiled and said, "Oh, I think I do. I'm Kitty." So she wasn't
deterred by it. >> She said, "I will continue with this line." >> She was like, "I'm not embarrassed." I
thought that was great. Get out of here. >> Oh, I love that. So, the pickup line
might have been a tired one, but Marianne found it pretty hard to resist Kitty's charm and her infectious laugh,
which a lot of people said. She said, "We just hit it off. We meshed. I'm very quiet and she talked a lot. We both had
struggles with our sexuality, but we had a quick bond." A few days later, Maryanne returned home one afternoon and
found a note from Kitty taped to her door and it said, "We'll call you at the street corner phone booth at 7:00."
Kitty G, >> stop. Kitty G. That night they made plans to meet at Seven Steps, which was a nearby bar. And
from that point on, they were practically inseparable. >> Love, love. >> Kitty and Marian.
>> For weeks, the two would meet at bars or get together at Kitty's motel room around the corner of the bar. And Marian
said, "But that's not real life. Kitty was happy, but it made me nervous. I didn't think it was safe. Who lives in a
motel?" >> Yeah, understandable. At Marann's insistence, the two began looking for an
apartment and soon found a one-bedroom on Austin Street in the Q Gardens neighborhood of Queens, right next to
the Long Island Railroad Station. >> Okay. >> Now, decades later, Maryanne would
remember that time as quote, "One of the happiest years of my life." >> Oh, that breaks my heart.
>> Ruins me >> because you know what happens. >> They both work days. Kitty managing El's
11th hour and Maryanne tending bar at Club Chris, leaving their nights free to spend together.
>> Nice. When Rachel and Vincent Genevese first visited the apartment, Kitty introduced Marannne as her friend.
>> But after that, the question about her meeting a nice man and getting married
came to an end. >> Well, that's good. >> And Marian said, "I think her mother knew."
>> It's nice they stopped asking. >> And Marian said she was always very nice to me.
>> All right. Nice. >> But later after Kitty's death, their attitude towards Maryanne changed.
>> Okay. Well, that's really shitty. >> Starting at the funeral where they refused to acknowledge her. Oh, I really
don't. >> And Marian said, "I think it was because of our lifestyle." >> It wasn't because of your lifestyle. It
was because of really messed up thinking. >> 100%. >> It's You don't have to take that blame.
>> No. I don't like when people refer to being gay as a lifestyle. >> I know. >> That has been said to me before and it
pisses me the [ __ ] off >> because it's like, is being straight a lifestyle? >> No. Because a lifestyle a lifestyle is a
choice. a choice. Exactly. >> Being gay is not a choice. Just like being straight is not really a choice.
>> I love a cozy lifestyle. That's my choice. I chose that lifestyle. Like that's it's that's not the same.
>> I just got so triggered in that moment. I remembered like an exact >> Maryanne is saying it's because of our
lifestyle because that's what you know she's from Sarah as well. So she that's how she heard it said to
>> her. Ex what I'm saying like that was put on her. >> Yeah. Exactly. Now, regardless of how
Kitty's parents or anyone else felt about their relationship, Kitty and Marian could not have been happier. And
good for [ __ ] no. >> They both deserve to be. >> Immediately after moving in, Kitty began
setting up her apartment, determined to make it a cozy home cuz she was choosing
a cozy lifestyle and getting to know their neighbors. Billy Curado, one of her neighbors, said she was super nice
with a smile for everybody. >> Oh, she sounds [ __ ] awesome. >> Kitty Genevese sounds like a [ __ ]
badass. >> She does. Now, after moving in, they quickly settled into a quiet domestic
life together. >> And on their nights off, Kitty would read fiction while Maryanne painted.
>> Oh, >> like >> they talked about art, music, movies, their shared interest in astrology.
>> Oh, [ __ ] >> You would have loved >> Especially to be interested in astrology
back then. And OG astrology girly. >> Yeah. >> Come on. >> Yeah. They really were living this
little idyllic just moment together. And for for it to be in the 1960s, for them to be a gay
couple in the 1960s, that was hard to find. >> Absolutely. >> Is your own idealic
>> life >> bubble >> together where you were unbburdened by everyone else's [ __ ] opinions about
it. So they but they found that together and it makes me happy that they have so
happy and just like she's living such a New York life which makes me so happy because she that's what she wanted and
where she felt free. >> I feel free. I feel alive. >> Now it's going to take a rough turn. I
know I've set you up for this and I'm but I it it gives me a little comfort to know that she had this like idealic life
with someone she loved before this happened. But this is going to be a hard >> turn.
>> Now at around 2:30 a.m. on March 13th, 1964, Kitty finished closing up E's 11th
hour and headed out to her red Fiat parked in the lot. After years of managing the bar, Kitty had gone through
this routine a million times. And it all felt so routine that she didn't even think to survey her surroundings when
she left the bar. She might have noticed, if she did, a man in the Chevy Corv sitting at the light watching her.
>> Mhm. >> If she looked in her rearview mirror as she pulled out the lot, she might have
seen this man do a U-turn in the middle of the road to follow her car. >> But even at that late hour, it's
unlikely that Kitty had danger on her mind. After all, Queens was the safest of the burrows at this point. She felt
so at home here that it never would have occurred to her that something terrible
could happen. >> Well, that's and like you said, she has been inshed in this place for years.
>> This is her home. She feels safe now. Pulling off the parkway at the Queens Boulevard exit, Kitty turned onto Austin
Street and then parked in the lot for the Long Island Railroad, ignoring the no parking signs, just as everyone in
the neighborhood always did. They said, "Fuck that." >> Um, as she got out of the car, she
fumbled with her keys. She probably didn't notice the white Corvair slowly passed by and pull off the side road a
half a block away. >> After lingering a moment to lock her car doors, Kitty turned and began walking
towards the building. The door that led to Kitty and Marann's second floor apartment was in the back of the
building, which required her to walk down a dark alley, lit faintly by the street lamp by the railroad tracks at
the other end, but pretty dark. >> Yeah. >> Maybe Kitty finally caught on to this
man who'd been following her since she left the bar. Or maybe she simply got the feeling that something wasn't right.
We don't know. Whatever the case, she started running towards the street light and the man behind her ran after her.
>> Oh god, that's an absolute nightmare. >> Most women know that feeling >> absolutely
>> of running from somebody. >> So many people So many women have been in that situation. Now, she'd reached
the entrance to the bookstore when she find when he finally caught up with her, uh, knocking her to the ground and
driving his hunting knife into her back, yanking it out, and then stabbing her again. It happened this fast.
>> And that's a split second. >> Yeah. Several of Kitty's neighbors were awoken by the screams they heard coming
from the street. She shouted, "Oh my god, he stabbed me. Please help. Please help me." Oh, at that one of the windows
in the apartment above shot open and a man, Robert Moser stuck his head out and he shouted, "Let that girl alone!"
thinking that she was being harassed by someone. >> Yeah. >> The sound of Moser's voice startled
Kitty's attacker who looked up at the man in the window, then shrugged his shoulders and walked down Austin Street
towards his car. He was just like, "Whatever." >> Oh my god. >> Now, with her attacker having fled,
Kitty struggled to her feet and began making her way towards the back of the building. presumably trying to get
inside to safety where she would find help. >> Yeah. >> Now that the scene was quiet again,
those who had been woken by the screams assumed probably that whatever commotion
that was about, it was over. So, they turned off the lights and went back to bed.
>> 10 or so minutes later. 10 or so minutes later, those few who were still awake
and still watching out their windows saw the man in the white car return. >> 10 minutes later,
>> she came back. >> So, and it's like, what was he planning to do? because she could have found her
way inside at that point. Like, was he going to break into the apartment looking for her? Who knows? Or was he
coming back for somebody else? >> Well, now his face was covered with a wide-brimmed hat. And the man appeared
to be looking for something, searching the area around the bookstore, the parking lot of the train station, and
eventually behind the building where he found what he was looking for. God. >> Kitty Genevies was slumped in front of
the back door to her building. A locked door preventing her from reaching to the
safety of her apartment. >> Oh my god. What happened next occurred out of the view of any neighbors
windows. So, the specific details of the attack are unknown. But according to the
autopsy performed the following day by Queen's medical examiner, William Benson, there were 13 stab wounds
scattered over the body, nine in front and four in back. A stab wound in the throat, and several slashes on the right
hand. >> That's unreal. >> The wounds on the hand were jagged, indicating Kitty had tried to fight off
her attacker. But by that time, her injuries would have left her with little energy to do anything. Despite the
number and severity of stab wounds, the cause of death was listed as bilateral pneumothorax, meaning the air from a
punctured lung had filled her chest and compressed her lungs, causing her to suffocate. That's a horrible way to go.
After stabbing Kitty repeatedly, the man sexually assaulted her and robbed her of
the $49 she had on her and then fled to his car. Mhm. >> Piece of [ __ ] >> Garbage.
>> Just moments after the attacker fled the scene, her next door neighbor, Sophia
Farrar, got a phone call from one of the other residents in the building. The frantic neighbor told Ferrar that Kitty
had been attacked and was outside by the vestibule. Without hesitating, Sophia dropped the phone and ran down the back
stairs. When she reached the door, she found that it wouldn't budge because Kitty was slumped against it.
>> Mhm. A moment later, Sophia was able to get the door open and found Kitty, quote, in a pool of blood, moaning and
gurgling and barely conscious. >> Sophia shouted for someone to call an ambulance, then held the gravely wounded
Kitty in her arms, whispering to her that help was on the way. >> I'm so glad she wasn't alone throughout
all of that. But she was alone through so much of that. >> It's true. And in a 2016 interview,
Farrar said, "I only hope that she knew it was me that she wasn't alone." >> Yeah. What happened next remains pretty
unclear with some details kind of like lost through time >> and others because one thing that you
should know about this is that the myths and untruths surrounding this case are a
plenty. >> Yeah, it's heavily debated. >> It it's very difficult to ascertain fact
from fiction and what's been told through a game of telephone for a long time. Mhm.
>> Now, several people in the building called the police at various points during the attack, but because no one
could tell what exactly was happening, they couldn't adequately convey the emergency. In the most charitable
interpretation, it appears the police dispatcher, there was no 911 system at the time, which is wild to think about.
Bonkers, >> was under the impression that Kitty had been beaten up or robbed, so the report
wasn't given the highest priority, which wo >> by the time the real nature of the
attack had been reported, nearly 40 minutes had passed, and it would be another half hour before the ambulance
arrived at 4:15 a.m. By then, it was too late. Kitty had died from her injuries on the way to the hospital.
>> Now, a short time after Kitty was taken away by ambulance, Maryanne heard a pounding at the door.
>> She said, "It woke me up and I was scared. Who comes knocking at 4 in the morning?"
>> Mhm. >> So, she cautiously opens it to find a police officer on the other side.
>> That's your worst nightmare. >> The officer explained that Kitty had been attacked and was on her way to the
hospital. She had lost a lot of blood and it didn't look like she was going to survive. Marian said, "I went numb." As
they stood there in the doorway, another OP officer approached and informed them
that Kitty was dead. >> Oh. At 4 in the morning, >> at 4 am, she hears a knock at the door.
It's a police officer who says, "The love of your life has been attacked and is on the way to the hospital, and we
don't think she's going to make it." And another officer comes up while you're processing that and says, "She actually
died." >> Make it >> like one two punch. >> How do you ever recover? >> How do you process that? And at such a
young age, too, like your mid20s, that that's probably the first person you've ever truly loved.
>> How the [ __ ] do you ever move on from >> I don't know how you survived. >> So, for the next several hours, Marian
sat in the kitchen with her neighbor Carl Ross, who brought over a bottle of vodka.
>> Outside, police and reporters were milling about the area, taping off the scene, snapping photos. When Detective
Mitchell Sang arrived around 7:30 a.m., he didn't take kindly to the presence of
Carl Ross. In his report, Sang wrote that Ross quote claimed to be consoling Maryanne while swilling vodka and act
acting obnoxious when Sang asked to speak to Maryanne alone and Carl protested which like don't do that.
>> Yeah, you got to the detective physically pulled him out of his chair and shoved him out the door.
>> Yeah. >> Angry, frustrated, and probably a little drunk, Ross kicked a hole in one of the
first floor doors, causing Sang to place him under arrest for disorderly conduct.
>> It's like, babe, you're not doing yourself any favors. And it's also like with everything going on right now. I
just wouldn't >> like cuz you're also adding to Maryanne's like [ __ ] right now. Like
she's going through enough. It does. It just doesn't need to be about you. >> You might think you're helping, but
you're very >> You're just making it about you right now. And Maryann's the one going through
this. >> Yeah. >> No. I also don't think he should have been arrested. >> No. >> I think you just tell him like you get
just go sleep. Yeah. Like go sleep it off. You shouldn't arrest him for that. Obviously, everyone's own.
>> You know, he did like damage public. >> No, I didn't even think of that. I in my
head I was like, "Oh, he kicked a door." You know, it happens. He kicked a hole in it. That does suck.
>> And now it's like somebody's got to [ __ ] fix that. >> It's just such like a high I'm like,
"Fuck." Like the emotions are so high in that situation. It sucks all around. >> It's true. They probably just arrested
him to get him the [ __ ] out of >> They probably did cuz he was drunk. So that's not good.
>> Hopefully they just let him sleep it off and then sent him home. >> Yeah. I just feel bad for these people.
>> I know this is a lot. >> The arrest of Carl Ross does reflect the misplaced priorities and bias that would
ultimately run through much of this case though, which is frustrating. A young woman had been brutally murdered by a
stranger at the doorstep of her own apartment building. >> It's like maybe let's focus on that.
>> Yeah. And it's like the first action taken in the investigation was to arrest
a neighbor. Can we look somewhere else? Yeah. >> When homicide detectives John Carol and
Jerry Burns took over the investigation later that morning, things didn't exactly improve.
>> Oh, great. After aggressively interviewing the neighbors in the building, the detectives turned their
attention to Maryanne, who was treated more as a suspect than a victim. >> A suspect?
>> Yeah. Maryanne. woke her out of a dead sleep. >> Marian said it was good cop, bad cop.
But the bad one, Burns, did most of the talking. >> For hours, they peppered her with
questions that, in retrospect, didn't seem all that relative to what happened. >> I'm sure
>> they wanted to know how long she'd known Kitty, who their friends were, how often
they argued, and most important inappropriately, did Maryanne have any sexual problems.
>> Sexual? Oh, cuz they were saying, "Are you a lesbian?" Because that was considered a sexual problem.
>> She said, "I was still in shock. It took me a while to realize what he was getting at. They thought I might be the
one who killed her. >> Unreal. >> Like, she didn't even know that's what they were getting at.
>> Unreal. >> It eventually became clear to Maryanne that the detectives were more interested
in her relationship with Kitty than they were finding the man responsible for murdering her. And the more they pressed
her, the less comfortable she became. >> The other thing, it's like, go ask around from the apartment. A man
literally saw the person who did this. >> Yeah. You you're aggressively talking to
the neighbors. They're going to tell you they saw a man. She said I didn't want to talk to the cops, especially not
Burns, but they harassed me for six hours trying to get me to say something bad about Kitty. Finally, they got me to
admit it. Okay, we were lesbians. >> Yeah. >> Decades later, Maryanne would still
regret revealing that information. She said, "I was always upset with myself for revealing that. What right did they
have to know?" >> It's true. What right did they have to know? But when you're pressed for 6
hours, >> I'm surprised the worst day of your life. Like >> now, in the days that followed, Marian
shut herself up in her apartment while more than a few neighbors began keeping their distance from her.
>> That's horrible. >> Police officers and detectives continued coming around to ask prying questions
about their relationship that felt more like accusations than anything else. A few days later at the funeral, things
only got worse as Kitty's parents rejected Marion entirely and turned their back on her.
>> That's shitty. Kitty's brother Vincent said, "My mother couldn't handle it. We
read about it in the papers, the gruesome description." A few days after the funeral, the police finally took
Maryanne's name off the suspect list. >> Why? >> Couldn't even let her get through the
funeral. >> Here's the thing. Normally, when somebody is murdered, if they are living
with a partner, of course, you ask the partner first. This is a little different.
>> This is so much different. >> Outside on the street, she's not in the apartment.
>> The door was locked, and that's the whole reason she couldn't get in. >> She was sleeping in the apartment. and
neighbors literally saw a man. It's like this is a very different situation. I would always say it makes sense to ask
the partner first cuz you got to rule them out. This is not one of those. And I feel like they railroaded her at
first. >> Well, they did it because of they did it because of her sexuality 100%.
>> Now, on March 18th, less than a week after the murder, Corona, New York resident Raul Clearary was standing
outside his house when he saw a young man he didn't know coming out of his neighbor's house carrying a television.
Clearary called out and asked the man what he was doing. He said, "It's okay. I'm helping them move." As he loaded the
TV into his Chevy Corvair. >> Mhm. Now, Clary went back inside and called one of the other neighbors to ask
whether the family across the street was moving, which this is a good neighbor. >> It really is. Hell yeah.
>> And the neighbor said they definitely were not. Then hung up and called the police. Not wanting the man to get away
before the police arrived, Raul waited until the man was back inside the house. Then he went out to the Chevy, lifted
the hood, and removed the distributor cap, ducking back into his apartment before the van returned.
>> King [ __ ] is not even the description. That's next level. That's a neighbor
that you want to like take care of your [ __ ] while you're away. >> Yeah, cuz he's not. All he's doing is
making it so that car won't run. He's not breaking it. He's not He just removed a cap that he can put back when
he needs put back if you are proven to not be a robber. iconic >> pretty Raul. >> Raul forever.
>> Now, when the man came back out and found his car wouldn't start, he simply got out and walked away down the street,
giving no indication that he was committing a crime. >> Okay. >> He was equally unconcerned a short time
later when two patrol officers pulled up beside him and started asking questions
about his having been at a house down the street. >> Yeah. >> The young man with the white Chevy
turned out to be 29-year-old Queens resident Winston Mosley. >> Winston Mosley. At the time of his
arrest, Mosley was married with three children. >> Are you [ __ ] >> had a decent job at a nearby factory and
most importantly, he had no criminal record. >> That is next level. >> To their surprise, when he was
interrogated by police, he freely admitted to having robbed the house in Corona and even claimed to have
committed many similar break-ins in the past. He told police he had given most of the appliances to his father, who
owned a repair shop and could resell them. The officers paid a visit to Mosley's father, who confirmed that his
son had brought him several items in the past. Now, despite his calm demeanor and
almost eager confession to robbery, investigators couldn't help but feel there was something he was hiding. So,
they decided to hold on to him a little longer for the robberies while they did some digging. It didn't take long for
them to realized that Mosley's car matched the description of the car seen outside Kitty's building on the night of
the murder. Mhm. A few hours after Winston Mosley was arrested for robbery, he was sitting in an interrogation room
across from Detective John Carroll. Among other things, Carol was curious about the fresh scabs on Mosley's hands,
which he claimed he got from working around the house. >> Doubt it. >> Carol said, "No, you got those cuts from
Kitty Genevese when you were putting the knife in." >> [ __ ] >> Which like, whoa.
>> Just boom. The room went silent for a few seconds and then with a slight smile
forming on his lips, he looked at Carol and said, "Okay, I killed her." Oh, that's chilling.
What the [ __ ] Just a father of three. Yep. In that interrogation room cheesing
about the fact that he murdered a young woman. And this detective is like, "No, you got those cuts when you put the
knife in her body." And he's like, "Okay, I did kill her. You're right. What the [ __ ]
>> That's a moment that probably never left Detective Carol. Can you [ __ ] imagine
>> cuz you're looking at evil like you are looking at pure evil. >> That's like we always say like one of
those things you see in a movie and you're like, "All right." >> Yeah. >> And it's like that's really happened.
>> Ew. >> For the rest of the night, Winston Mosley continued giving his confession
to detectives, not sparing any gruesome detail. >> That's such a weasly ass. >> Even as he ate his dinner,
>> he shouldn't have been given a dinner. He told them about how he had spotted her when she was getting into her car,
how he'd followed her home and stabbed her, and how he came back after being run off the first time. He even told
them about how he'd stolen her wallet and kept the money, throwing the rest of the billfold into the weeds. As he was
on his way to work the next morning, Mosley also claimed that as he was driving home after killing Kitty, he
spotted a man sleeping in his car by the side of the road. He approached the car
and tapped on the driver's side window with the bloody knife. Startling the driver awake, Mosley said,
"Listen, mister. You shouldn't be sleeping like that. The carbon monoxide builds up or somebody could come along
and do something bad to you." >> Jesus Christ. >> The man thanked him for the warning,
then drove off. >> I'm sure that man's probably like, "What?" >> Yeah. >> And to tap on the window with the bloody
knife to say that you're a psychopath. >> No, he absolutely is. To the detectives,
the whole story seemed [ __ ] bizarre. And Mosley was so forthcoming that they wondered whether he was even telling the
truth. They were like, "Is this real?" Like, he was >> But he had no reason to lie. And he
seemed to know too much about the murder to be a false confession. So, there was
little doubt that Winston Mosley had killed Kitty Genevies. But that wasn't all. After he'd finished confessing to
the robberies around Queens and the murder of Kitty Genevies, he also confessed to murdering 24year-old Annie
May Johnson a week earlier. The details of that one are remarkably similar to those of Kitty's murder. When they asked
why he'd done it, the best explanation Winston could come up with was that he gave in to urges to kill and rape.
>> Well, >> put him away. >> Yeah. Forever. >> Bye. >> Bye. >> When Mosley was done giving his
confession, Detective Carol went to the phone to call prosecutor uh Phil Chedda to inform him that they'd likely solved
two recent murders. Chedda listened to Carol's story, but after he heard the details of the Johnson murder, he
stopped the detectives and explained that Mosley was wrong. He claimed he'd shot Annie May Johnson when in fact she
had been stabbed to death. Oh, so he was just trying to get credit for a murder.
Well, when Carol dis confronted Mosley with the discrepancy, Winston looked unsurprised. Then in the same flat tone
he'd had all night, he simply said, "I shot her." So it's like, "What the [ __ ] are you
talking about?" Now, this is wild. So, when the autopsy was initially conducted on Annie May Johnson, the coroner had to
contend with the fact that she had been badly burned across large parts of her body, which obscured some of her
injuries. After having the body exumed and x-rayed, the coroner discovered that indeed his original cause of death had
been wrong. The X-rays clearly showed six .22 caliber bullets in Johnson's body.
>> Holy [ __ ] When he had originally conducted the autopsy, the entrance wounds had been so small that he'd
mistaken them for puncture wounds caused by something like an ice pick. Thus, he
had listed it as stabbing. >> Oh. >> This new revelation proved that not only had Winston Mosley killed Kitty
Genevies, he had absolutely killed Annie May Johnson. >> Wow. >> The fact that they said, "No, you were
wrong." Like you told them, he just said, "I shot her." >> Like he's like, "Go ahead, figure it
out." >> Wow. Oh, like what? >> Now, the murder of Kitty Genevies was a tragic event that scarred the
neighborhood that it happened in. >> But from an objective position, there was little about it that was like
outrageously like out of the ordinary for like a horrible crime, unfortunately. >> You know what I mean? Like it wasn't it
was horrible, but it was like a horrible crime. And had it not been for the news
coverage that followed, it likely probably would have been one of those that we found and were like, "Why didn't
we know about this?" You know what I mean? Like it would have got like totally obscured in other things,
>> right? >> Um, in fact, in the week that followed Kitty's death, the murder made the paper
a handful of times reporting basic facts. Then came Martin Gansberg's now notorious New York Times article that
changed the narrative entirely. Published on March 27th, 1964. or Gainesburg's article, 37 who saw murder
didn't call the police, ignored >> most of the facts of Kitty's murder, and instead focused on a misunderstanding of
the reactions from her neighbors. >> He wrote, "For more than half an hour, 38 respectable, law-abiding citizens in
Queens watched a killer stalk and stab a woman in three separate attacks in Q Gardens." According to him, Kitty's
neighbors not only heard her cries for help, but actively ignored them, knowing that she was being violently assaulted.
He said, "If we had been called when he first attacked, the woman might not be dead." Now, that's he had quoted a
police chief as saying that >> it seems unlikely that Martin Ginsburg was acting like in bad faith when he
wrote the article. Instead, the article was assigned to him by an editor, okay, a Rosenthal, who had been fed the
misinformation by New York City police commissioner Michael Murphy. So this is not like one guy who just made it's a
game of telephone, but it was misinformation that was given. >> Yeah. >> And then spewed out to every
>> I remember like cuz when you go over it, they're like it's it's not real. The by
like they're trying to say the bystander effect is not real. >> Exactly. Now in reality, no one saw
Kitty getting attacked the second time. >> Right. Cuz they wouldn't have been able
to. She was in the alley. At most, people heard her cries for help, and when they went to see what was going on,
she had already moved behind the building and couldn't be seen. As for no one calling the police, that was also
untrue. Several people called the police that night, but not knowing exactly what
was happening, the reports were marked low priority, and police didn't respond, as they would have if they knew she was
being actively murdered. Now, regardless of the facts, the story seemed to speak
to the people of New York, many of who, like Kitty's parents, were concerned about the changing composition of the
neighborhoods in what they thought was rising crime rates. >> Journalist Joe Ston wrote, "The killing
of Kitty Genevies was first a tragedy, then a symbol, then a bit of a durable urban mythology."
That is to say, the story, as the New York Times presented, it confirmed what a lot of people already believed, that
crime rates were skyrocketing and it was becoming unsafe to live in these neighborhoods.
>> Um, and that all of this stuff resulted in an extreme form of apathy, right? That they that they were really making
people feel like people are apathetic as a whole >> and it prevented them from even doing
anything to intervene for this poor woman. >> Right. Now to the editor Abe Rosenthal,
the story had very little to do with Kitty at all and was in fact all about the state of American society in the
mid1 1960s. >> He wrote in 1999, I was interested only in the manner of her dying. That is the
power of the Genevese matter. It talks to us not about her, a subject that was barely of fleeting interest to us, but
about ourselves, a subject never out of our minds. Uh, >> that's a real thing that was said. I
literally Did you just see me like Ash actively like backed up in her seat like it just it thrust her backwards.
>> What the [ __ ] I can't imagine. He So he's actually speechless. >> So the whole thing was like, "Oh my
goodness, we're all becoming apathetic. This is bad. High crime rates. Nobody's going to interview." And then he's
literally like, "Yeah, I don't care about that woman that got married. Let's talk about apathy though. Did you not
step right in the irony of your statement? >> Did you choke on the irony of that
statement that you're being like, "Fuck, we're all getting apathetic. This is terrible. Everybody listen to this. Who
gives a [ __ ] about that girl? I care about me." It's like, you literally are apathy, my friend. Like, that's insane.
You are literally walking apathy down the street. >> The point you just >> How'd you miss it? Like how can you how
can you actually lack that much humanity? And also like as a journalist, I'm like, you wrote that down and read
it and then published it >> and and somebody else was like, "Good idea." Like what?
>> Hello. >> Yeah. >> Yikes. >> As author Melissa Jane Hardy put it, Rosenthal's interest was aroused not by
the murder victim, but by his fantasy of the reader reading the story. >> Okay. >> Which is a perfect way of saying it.
>> Yeah. She's like, "Yeah, he didn't care about a murder victim. He had this w this fantasy in his head about somebody
reading this story and being enthralled by it. >> Then you should read then you should
write fiction. >> Yeah. >> Fantasy is perhaps the best way to describe his interpretation of this
case. To him it didn't matter that Kitty Genevese had a family, friends, a girlfriend who loved her.
>> Clearly not. >> Or that an entire neighborhood had been literally [ __ ] traumatized by her
death and would carry with them the burden of inaction, however unfairly it had been put upon them. Mhm.
>> What mattered to him, the only thing that mattered was that people maintained
their fear and outrage that drove them to pick up his articles instead of another paper. That is so outlandish.
>> Like that's unbelievable. And just the the lack of ethics, babe. >> Yeah, that's a crazy one.
>> The lack of ethics, the lap lack of empathy. Yeah. >> The Hello. >> Yep. >> Hello.
>> Hello. In the weeks that followed, subsequent articles appeared in different newspapers like all over the place
addressing the so-called problem of urban apathy. Um, >> did they put him on the cover of those?
Roenthal wrote in a March 28th article, "Experts in human behavior such as psychiatrists and sociologists seemed as
hardput as anyone else to explain the inaction of witnesses." Citing no one in particular, Rosenthal went on to say
most of the witnesses in attempting to explain their inaction said they did not want to get involved. So he didn't cite
anyone as saying that just everybody said that >> except people had gotten involved,
>> right? >> Somebody yelled at their window. >> Many as soon as they knew what was
happening, got involved, >> called the police, right? When Robert Moser heard Kitty's cries for help, he
shouted at the man he believed was only harassing her, but he got involved when he thought somebody was just harassing
her, >> causing Winston Mosley to briefly flee the scene >> for for 10 minutes. >> The only reason Moser didn't go down to
see what was happening was that he saw Kitty stand up and begin walking towards the door, and he said he just believed
she was all right. >> Right. Also, the moment Sophia Far learned that Kitty was in trouble, she
raced down the stairs and held Kitty in her arms, offering her comfort and kindness and like just somebody being
there in her final moments of life. >> That's the thing. There was a lot of humanity in
away from this. Like the fact of the matter was if there was an action, it was on the part of law enforcement.
>> Yeah. >> Who couldn't be bothered to find out what the [ __ ] was going on until it was
too [ __ ] late. >> Yeah. >> Like that's the reality. >> It's the truth. It is the truth.
>> But none of that mattered to to the people that were saying this like to Rosenthal. All that mattered to him was
that people kept reading what he was saying. He kept building a name for himself.
>> In the weeks and months that followed, he continued to push the apathy narrative, determined to find, you know,
a way to ride this wave of attention as far as he could. In May of that year, he
published a long form article in the paper titled study of the sickness of apathy where he summarized the public
reaction to learning of the enaction of the Genevese case saying what the devil do you expect in a town a jungle like
this. >> Sir, go elsewhere. Just go away. In a matter of months, this story had been changed. They had
taken a tragic story of a brutal murder in Queens and made it into an alarmist statement of the decline of urban
society. >> Mhm. >> And she got totally lost, >> which is he didn't give a [ __ ] about.
>> Yeah. In his autobiography, Rosenthal wrote of Kitty, "Her name, once known only to her family and the people she
served at the bar, has taken on an an instantly understood meaning to all who have heard it."
I'm going to make a broad statement, but I feel pretty confident about it. Does he hate women?
>> I feel like he hates women. I'm just getting woman hater vibes. >> It's not great.
>> Broad statement, but feels appropriate. >> Yeah. >> You [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> Like what?
>> Can you imagine writing that about a about any person who has lived >> Yeah. >> Like that? That doesn't suck. But a
murder victim who was in their like mid20s when they were brutally stabbed and like sexually assaulted. Yeah.
>> Nobody would have known her name. Nobody would have known your [ __ ] name if
you didn't insert your dumb self into this. >> Well, and that's it's like this all just
fit their world view that like it didn't matter if it was true or not. This fit the world view that they had of what was
going on. And so people they just accepted it and anyone else who had that worldview also accepted this as like,
"Yep, confirmation of what I've been saying." >> That's just a [ __ ] crazy thing to
simply just accepted what they heard in passing. Life in the city had become so hard and so bad that people were even
afraid, too afraid to intervene to save the life of a young woman being attacked
in front of them on the street. That was the message >> for decades. That was the story of Kitty
Genevese. Not one of a young woman cut down in the prime of her [ __ ] life, but one of urban apathy and cowardice.
Mhm. >> And it would remain that way until someone finally decided to ask some more
probing questions and say, "Wait a minute. How could this have possibly happened?"
>> Now, following his arrest and arraignment, Winston Mosley was briefly held in a psychiatric hospital where he
was evaluated and deemed to be sane. >> Wow, that's even scarier. >> Worse, in June 1964, Mosley went on
trial for the murder of Kitty Genevies where he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity. I was like, you were just
literally deemed sane. >> By that point, he had been charged with Annie May Johnson's murder the month
before Kitty's death and the murder of 15year-old Barbara Kick in Queens the previous July.
>> God, this guy is a [ __ ] crazy person, >> which we I want to go back and try to
look further into those two cases. So, we'll touch upon that again. >> As evidence of his insanity, Mosley's
lawyer cited his client's willingness to confess to the crimes >> despite the lack of evidence that
conclusively tied him to the murders. It's a wild weird thing to do, but it's not insane.
>> But it's not insane. Regardless of his explanation and admittedly bizarre behavior, less than a week after the
trial began, he was found guilty of murder and sentenced to death, but that was eventually commuted to life in
prison. >> Four years later, he broke away from a prison guard in Buffalo, New York, and
escaped from jail briefly before being recaptured and returned to the Clinton Correctional Facility in Danamaro, New
York. Phew. In the years that followed, he appealed his case and repeatedly petitioned for parole, but was denied
each time. >> During his final hearing for parole in 2015, >> holy [ __ ] What? >> The parole board declined his petition,
writing, "You still minimize the gravity of your behavior and did not exhibit much insight." And for that reason, they
believed he was not fit for release. >> That many years later, they still said you're not showing any. He was 80 years
old and still not showing remorse. That's next level. The following year, he died of natural causes at age 81.
>> Rest in distress. Winston Mosley's death probably would have gone unnoticed had
it not coincided with the release of The Witness, a documentary by filmmaker James Solomon, and Kitty's brother,
Bill. >> Oh, okay. after spending decades watching his sister's life and tragic death be exploited for the sake of a
cynical social critique like brought up in psychology classes as like you know >> Bill Genevies decided it was time to
correct the record once and for all. He said there was a lot of things we discovered of the 11 years of research
that he and Solomon had done for the film. He said but basically the most fundamental thing was that the 38
eyewitness story and three attacks was not true. Which is wild. That's got to just shatter your [ __ ] brain.
Especially as somebody related to the case. >> Well, and this poor this poor family her
poor family and friends and Maryanne were told that 38 of her neighbors watch this happen and didn't give a [ __ ] about
her. >> Like that would have been maddening. I can't imagine that. >> And that also is going to change your
view on society and the way that you interact with society. >> Probably shaped a lot of it. Mhm.
>> Now, most important to Genevies was learning that contrary to popular belief, his sister hadn't been callously
ignored that night. And in fact, there was someone with her in the final moments of her life.
>> And it's like that could have provided that family so much comfort had they known that.
>> And he said that, Bill said that. He said that was enormous. It was such a relief.
>> Of course, it was. And about Sophia Farrar's actions that night, he said, "My only regret is that my parents were
not able to understand that that was the case. They would have been, I'm sure, somewhat relieved to have known that
somebody was there. And not only somebody, it was a friend of hers. >> Of course, they would have been relieved
by that. >> In the course of their research, Solomon and Genevies found many people who
continued to carry not only the trauma of that night, but also the memory of his sister were still telling them like
she was this amazing person and that's not what is being told here. Yeah. In telling their story and in celebrating
the life of his sister, Bill Genevese started a larger conversation that ultimately questioned this myth of urban
apathy and corrected the record when it came to the life and death of Kitty Genevese. As for Maryanne, whose life
was irreparably altered that night, >> like I said, >> she eventually managed to heal a little
bit from the trauma of her loss and built a life for herself working as a statistical analyst.
>> Wow, good for her. In 1997, she retired with her partner in Rutland, Vermont,
but she carried Kitty's memory with her until her death in April 2024. >> Oh, just happened.
>> I'm glad she lived such a long life. >> In 2004, Maryanne spoke to the press for
the first time about her relationship with Kitty, during which the interviewer asked, "If Kitty hadn't died that night,
would they still be together?" And she said, "I think Kitty would probably own a bar and I think she would be happy."
And then she paused for a second and added, "We both would. I was about to cry. >> No, I get it.
>> Then she paused for a second and said, "We would both be >> of course they'd be happy."
>> Which is like, >> yeah, >> for her to have to like sit there and think about like what life could be with
the person you love so much and taken from you like that, they had their whole lives ahead of them.
>> Those are the questions that it's like, is that appropriate to ask? >> Yeah. It's like and and I can see like
both sides of that coin where it's like I know >> I don't know. I don't know if it is.
It's like had if she had her partner that's really kind of disrespectful. >> Well, that's that's the other thing.
Yeah, that's the thing. It's like if she was single, like single, you know what I
mean? Like to be like, do you think you would still be together? But even that is like it's kind of disrespectful to
her to put her in that position. But she also is diving into something that would
be so hard to access, which is like, "Hey, go back and pull out all your hopes and dreams for your life together
>> that you had to put that you just had down. >> You had to put to the side." Yeah.
>> When that h that was torn away from you >> that you literally had to bury >> and tell me would you still be together?
Like that's a lot for her to have to access in that moment. And I think I understand the question itself. I I
don't know. That's got to have the impact. >> I'm not saying the person who asked it
was trying to be >> No, I'm not either >> a dick, but I just that question I'm like, "Oo, that hurt my
>> heart." >> And I And I just don't think >> I don't know. It just doesn't feel like
something I need to I don't need to know that. >> It's not my business. >> It's her it's it's her feelings.
>> I just think that sometimes people can be a lot more tactful with the way they
interview. >> For sure. >> You know, and and that's a great example of it. I don't think the intent was bad,
but I'm just like, >> "Yeah, some is not not the bad thing. It's just the >> outcome,
>> the execution of it is >> is not great. And I just feel like she I just didn't I don't know. That's not
that's not for us. >> If she wanted to access that, then she she can access that. But I don't know.
It felt I don't want to like force someone to access that kind of pain. >> A little exploitative.
>> But >> I think Kitty Genevie sounded like the coolest [ __ ] lady >> ever. I wanted to hang I would hang with
her in a [ __ ] second. The whole time I was reading this and stuff about her. I was like,
>> damn. Like what a >> sounds like a great girl. >> What a cool girl. And then Maryanne
sounds like such a badass. And I feel like hanging in their apartment would be so cool with like her painting and her
uh kitty reading and talking astrology. >> Yeah. Just talking astrology, cooking,
all kinds of cool [ __ ] >> We would have been like we would have been tight. I feel like
>> they just sound >> had we come had we crossed paths back then. >> They just sounded like they were she was
taken away from >> from a lot of people and people who didn't even know her yet.
>> She was taken away from potential friends >> that she probably would have had
everywhere. >> I'm so happy like you said in the middle of that that they had that little bubble
for even the amount of time that they did. Like I'm that's a that's a such a special connection
>> and I'm glad that her brother was a like set like Solomon was able to >> they were able to like dive in and be
like no she wasn't callously ignored cuz that's an awful thing to think about for
your loved one. >> Yeah. Yeah. When I to think that her parents thought that she was just
callously ignored as she was killed, brutally killed and that no one was with her when she died
>> when in reality Sophia Ferrar was holding her and hope and whispering to her to make sure she knew she was with
her. >> That's a good [ __ ] person right there. >> I feel like sometimes we like always
look >> want to look a lot of people want to look for the worst >> for the hole in the donut.
>> The hole in the donut. I tell my kids that all the time. Don't look for the hole. It is my nanny and my grandmother.
It was. She would always say, "Don't stop looking for the hole in the donut." Like, there's a whole bunch of donut
around that hole and you're not even looking at it. >> I love that. >> And I tell the kids that all the time
when they're being negative. >> I'm going to take that when I have kids. >> And it's like sometimes people are
great. >> Yeah. Sometimes that is true. >> And sometimes human interactions are great.
>> Yeah. Sometimes people are [ __ ] terrible, but sometimes there's people will surprise you.
>> Well, the sad thing is it's like there are so many instances of humans being terrible to each other. when there is an
instance of connection, let's expose that for what it is and let's let's like hold that deer, not try to flip it on
its head. >> Exactly. And it sounds like, you know, people did did act. It wasn't an action.
>> It was just a tragic tragic awful [ __ ] Winston Mosley can go [ __ ] himself
>> 100%. >> Rest in distress, [ __ ] >> Yeah. [ __ ] you. >> Because the fact that he came back,
>> go [ __ ] yourself. The fact that he was scared off and then came back is really
scary. It's also just like that's a [ __ ] predator. >> Yeah. >> Um, what's your fun fact?
>> So, most people are petting cats the wrong way. >> How am I supposed to pet my cat?
>> Apparently, research shows that they will tolerate it for food and attention.
Like, they're just dealing with it. But the safest spots to do it are under their chin.
>> A, >> their cheeks and the base of their ears. The worst, their belly, and the base of
their tail. Oh, that makes sense. Um, none of my cats except Remy like being pet on the belly and I always do behind
their ears. >> There you go. >> A Yeah, >> I love knowing that. >> Yeah. So, get them under the chin and
the cheeks. >> The base of their tail makes so much sense because once you start going to a
cat's tail, it's like the most sensitive part of their body. >> That makes sense.
>> Yeah. >> So, yeah. >> Thanks for that. >> Pet your cat accordingly. >> Pet your cat correct.
>> Come correct. Well, with that, we hope you keep listening. >> And we hope you keep it weird,
but not so weird that you try to like turn things into something that they're not when they actually were quite all
right. >> Yeah, it's pretty wild. >> Yeah, it's a weird [ __ ] thing to do. Gives weird vibes. It does.

In the early hours of March 13, 1964, twenty-eight-year-old Kitty Genovese returned home from work and parked her car in a lot near her Queens apartment, completely unaware that someone was following her. As she approached the door to her apartment building, Kitty’s stalker ran up behind her and stabbed her in the back twice before being scared off by a neighbor who yelled from his window. Wounded, Kitty managed to get to the back of the building, but her attacker soon returned and brutally assaulted her. By the time an ambulance arrived an hour later, it was too late; Kitty Genovese died before she reached the hospital.

Kitty’s murder and the arrest of her killer, Winston Moseley, were quickly overshadowed by what were believed to be the facts of the attack, primarily the widely held belief that at least thirty-eight neighbors had seen the assault or heard Kitty’s cries for help and did nothing. Despite there having been no evidence to support that belief, the narrative quickly became about urban apathy, with the death of a Queens bartender merely a footnote.

The murder of Kitty Genovese is one of the most notorious violent crimes in modern American history—not because of the details or circumstances of the crime, but because of the legend and mythology that has built up around it.

References

Cook, Kevin. 2014. Kitty Genovese: The Murder, the Bystanders, the Crime that Changed America. New York, NY: W.W. Norton & Company.

Gallo, Marcia M. 2014. "The Parable of Kitty Genovese, the New York Times, and the Erasure of Lesbianism." Journal of the Hisotry of Sexuality 273.

Gansberg, Martin. 1964. "37 who saw murder didn't call the police." New York Times, March 27: 1.

New York Times. 1964. "Queens man seized in death of 2 women." New York Times, March 20: 21.

Pearlman, Jeff. 2004. "'64 murder lives in heart of woman's 'friend'." Chicago Tribune, March 12: 4.

Peltz, Jennifer. 2015. Kitty Genovese Killer Denied Parole in Notorious 1964 Case . November 17. Accessed January 9, 2026. @cal/kitty-genovese-killer-denied-parole-notorious-1964-stabbing-new-york-city/1274332/.

Roberts, Sam. 2020. "Sophia Farrar dies at 92; belied indifference to Kitty Genovese." New York Times, September 10.

Rosenthal, Abe. 1964. "Apathy is puzzle in queens killing." New York Times, March 28: 21. —. 1964. "Study of the Sickness called apathy." New York Times, May 3: 24.

Simon, Scott. 2016. The Witness' Tells A Different Story About The Kitty Genovese Murder.

May 28. Accessed January 9, 2026. https://www.npr.org/2016/05/28/479824705/-the-witness-tells-a-different-story-about-the-kitty-genovese-murder.Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Listener Tale Theme Music licensed from https://www.purple-planet.com Main Theme: Matti Paalanen — Trick or Treat — Provided by Jamendo Ad Music: Title: Artist: BlueJay Studio — Spooky Waltz — Provided by Jamendo

Brief Summary

The episode discusses Kitty Genevese's murder, the bystander effect, and the societal implications of her tragic death in 1964.

Key points

Nostalgic Movie Moments. Ash and Elena discuss the impact of nostalgic films like Center Stage.
The Tragic Story of Kitty Genevese. Exploring the life of Kitty Genevese, a vibrant young woman in Brooklyn.
Kitty Genevese's Bold Stand. Kitty refuses to move to Connecticut, declaring her love for New York.
A Romantic Connection. Kitty meets Maryanne at a bar, sparking a deep romantic connection.
Tragic Attack. Kitty is brutally attacked after leaving work, leading to a tragic outcome.
Delayed Emergency Response. Emergency calls during the attack were misinterpreted, delaying help for Kitty.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Justice for Susan May Pratt!

Elena's call for recognition of the actress's work.

4:52WatchJan 19, 2026

Tension

80/ 100High tension

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