Episode 744: The Pizza Bomber Conspiracy | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos. I am Ash. And I am Elena. And this is Morbid. [music] >> I did that [music] thing where I almost
said I'm Elena. I don't know why that happens so frequently. >> You just, you know, you feel it in your
bones. >> Yeah, we're related. I guess >> we are. >> You know. >> Uh, what's up everybody? Hey, Elena's
alive again. That's nice. >> Um, I saw that most people also have contracted this viral plague that none
of us can figure out what it is. >> Yeah, it's something. >> Uh, it'll kick your ass, though.
>> Yeah. >> Um, and I know here's just one little thing. When somebody gets sick, saying
you're always sick is not helpful in any way. >> No, don't say that. >> Uh, so don't don't do that. Uh,
[laughter] >> also >> that's not you listening. No, >> that other person >> whoever said that like [clears throat]
okay shut thank you [laughter] >> shut up helpful >> pull them up >> but yeah it's uh it sucks and my
littlest one had the flu and yes kids are always sick >> she had the saddest little cough that I
ever did here I said she was like [groaning] >> yeah it just >> I think yeah >> it was so it was so like horse
>> it was it really was and she was like down for the count for a couple days. But
>> she kicks things in the face. She does not hold on to them long. She's like, "Hey, you don't get to stay here."
>> No, she was still coughing, but she was >> But she said, "Fuck that. I'm fine."
Yeah. She was like, "I'm going outside in the snow. Bye." >> Yeah. She was like She actually like
admonished me for not having um snow pants. >> Yeah. She was like, "We're going outside." I said, "I'm sorry. I don't
have them." And she was like, "Well, will you get some?" And I was like, "Probably not. We're going." Uh, but
yeah, so hopefully everybody who has this plague, um, you can feel I feel much better because I'm on antibiotics
now. >> Can I tell you something? You look so much better. >> Oh, yeah. I looked like The Walking
Dead. >> Christmas morning, I woke up and looked at you and I said, "Maybe it's just
because it's early." And then the day progressed and I said, "Maybe something's actually really wrong. It's
getting worse." >> Yeah. You looked really good on your birthday, though. >> I appreciate you. But but [laughter] uh
she I said that to her on her birthday and she goes, "I'm wearing so much makeup right now." It didn't look like
it cuz it was the first time I put on makeup in like a thousand years at that point cuz Yeah. Christmas. It was
Christmas Eve that I really really started feeling it. >> Christmas Eve you looked great, but I
could tell you were off a little bit. >> Yeah. It was like I I was trying to be like, "Okay, maybe it's just the dry
air, you know, >> when you had to be like the hostess with the hostess." >> Yeah. So I was like, you know, my throat
was razor blades and I was like, "I think it's fine. It's dry." Cuz that happens during the winter sometimes.
Like you wake up and you're like, "Oh, I have a sore throat. What is this?" And you're like drier.
>> I keep waking up with like a little bit of like a bloody nose. Not like the but
like dry. >> So it was Christmas morning. I woke up and I was like, "Uh-oh." But I just
pretended everything was fine cuz it's Christmas morning. >> Yeah. >> Um which was awesome.
>> It was great. Such a fun morning. >> And it I really only let it let it fall once the kids had gone to sleep on
Christmas Day. I was like, "Yeah, I don't feel well, everybody." No. And then it was I mean 8 days of
>> [ __ ] >> no moment of feeling better. Like I was waking up every morning being like what
what is this? Because usually I feel better after a few days. You know like a couple days in you're like all right I'm
starting to get on the other side of it. >> I hate to admit this but even my pastina
could not cure her. >> No. >> My pastina has has cured many in the past at all. >> Yeah. Well this time I had to make I
made the pastina. had that and now hopefully the bisque will will kick the last of it out of you. I made her a
sweet potato bisque with like a [ __ ] ton of Sriracha in it. >> I'm really excited for that.
>> Also, I know you're not like a soupy girl, so I did see this girl on TikTok put it over ground beef.
>> Ooh. >> And I was like, it sounds a little weird, but I was like, that looks like
it'd be really good. >> Sounds kind of good to me. >> Yeah. Kind of makes it almost like a
chili. >> Yeah, I like that. Oo, I might try >> check it. >> But yeah, it was I had one day of a 14
and 1/ half hour headache. >> Yeah. Uh that I thought I would I was like, "Well, this is it. Goodbye, cruel
world." Like, I was literally like, "This is this is how I go." >> I would have been so angry.
>> I cried several times. You cried? >> Yes. Just out of pure frustration of like, I can't get away from this pain
and I need to do something about it. >> That's the saddest thing I ever did here.
>> It was bad. This was a bad sickness. >> Damn. >> It's not fun. And I know a lot of you
are dealing with it, too, because a lot of people were like, "Yep, same plague over here." Like feeling it. I'm so
sorry. >> Yeah. >> And I don't have any tips for you because the only thing that worked for
me was my doctor giving me an antibiotic cuz I finally got a sinus infection and
I got like um >> that was a crazy way to say that. I finally got a sinus infection.
Sinus infection. >> I'm waiting for one. [laughter] >> But I got like a he called it something.
And so he was like I'm going to put you No, like the the infection that I had. >> Oh.
>> And he was like I'm going to put you on an antibiotic. And it was the only thing
that made me feel better. It's insane because I was with you for like a lot of this. Drew was with you. John was with
you. And none of us are sick. And I would like to right here on this mic right now. Shout out to my immune
system. >> Yeah, for real. >> I've been taking a [ __ ] ton of elderberry and zinc.
>> Well, the good you never get sick. >> Don't say don't you dare. [laughter] Don't you Why the [ __ ] did you just say
that? >> No, I was being a dick cuz I get the You're always sick. >> Yeah, Elena's always sick. Don't say
that to me. God damn it. You can never >> I rebuke you. [laughter] No, you have a good immune system.
>> I think so. Anyways, which is like kind of shocking for a life I led for a while, but you know, what are you going
to do? >> I think I my my system was in fight or flight for a couple years. >> Yeah.
>> So, I think it's just shat all over my body. >> I think it's just like I think I was
born in fight or flight. [laughter] So, my body's just like, what's up? What else is more time to get used to it?
>> But yeah, other than that, uh thank you so much for the birthday wishes. Yeah,
this [ __ ] is 40. But they're still coming in and you guys are amazing and you made me feel really good.
>> 40 is the new 30. >> It is. You like 40 is a great age. I feel >> it's just a goddamn number. I'm not
worried about it. >> Time's made up. It's not even realistically. It's not even the new
year. I've been seeing so many I follow so many witchy accounts now that it's like not like it's not the new year.
>> I mean, it feels like the new year to me. >> No, but it's not because the the earth
is still resting. It's still frigid. We're supposed to be hibernating. The new year is in the spring when like life
pops up from the ground again. >> Oh, see, I like New Year being in winter cuz it's like it cleans everything.
>> Yeah. >> It feels clean. It feels a new >> Yeah. It doesn't feel that new to me.
>> That's also what that old man told Frankenstein's monster in Frankenstein. >> Such.
>> He said in the winter the world is clean. >> It is clean and I do like that. I agree.
>> Um, yeah. Such a good movie. If you guys haven't seen Frankenstein, you got to go
check it out. I think we talked about this already. >> I think I might talk about it every time
we [laughter] talk. Like, honestly, we should. I remain obsessed with that movie.
>> Again, also I feel like I was just shocked because I didn't think like not for any like particular reason. It's
just like not like super up my alley. Like I wouldn't have thought it would be. >> But then when I watched it, I was like
blown away. So >> it's GMO. >> Give it a chance if you're if you're on the fence.
>> Anything GMO is attached to, I'm in. >> Um I can't believe that I didn't just
like come into the episode screaming this. Tomorrow night we're going to be on Watch What Happens Live. I still
can't believe that that's a real thing. >> Tomorrow night, we're going to be on Watch What the [ __ ] Happens Live with
Andy [ __ ] Cohen. And I don't know how to function on a basic human level with that thought in my mind. And
I still don't know what I'm wearing yet. >> No, I am. >> Am I deciding between eight dresses?
Yeah, I sure am. [laughter] >> It's SLC night. I need to look like a snow like I need to look like snowflake
vibes, but like fierce vibes. If Bronnin's there, I got to be camp. Like there's a lot to figure out.
>> There is. And nobody cares what I look like that honestly. I'm here for the vibes. I'm excited to just watch you
flip the f like I'm excited cuz I love Bravo shooters. But >> um but this is really I'm very excited
to see >> Ash live this. >> Yeah. And I'm very excited to live it but on like a different level.
>> You're living it on We're living it on different levels. >> I'm very excited. But I just like I know
what this means to Ash. So I'm very excited. >> I appreciate that. And I'm excited to
live to watch you live it because you get to announce something pretty exciting. I do
>> that. We can't say yet, >> but >> watch this space. >> You will know if you watch watch what
happens. You'll know >> 10:15 tomorrow night. Check it >> or if you watch this space in our
socials the following day on the 7th. Then you will know there's I'm announcing something. I can't wait. And
I bet you can't imagine what it is. >> Oh my god, I'm so excited, guys. So many very excited.
>> So many cool things are happening. We had Alisa Kelly here and she was telling
us uh about like our personal charts and how like abundant this like next year or
so is going to be and then I'm taking an astrology class and my teacher had like
echoed the same sentiment and she said she was like wow you're going to be busy as [ __ ] like the next year or so like
it's going to be and she was like it's going to be like so successful though and it was the same thing that Alisa
said and then everything that I've learned I'm like oh [ __ ] I think it might be like super abundant.
>> Let's go. And that's for both of us. >> I'm in. >> Yeah, we have great placements and I
just like to thank the universe. >> Yeah, the the the year 2026 starting off >> on a fun note, on a happy note, on a
>> on a note of letting go of things that don't serve anymore. It's the first year
that we're starting off at serious. >> Yes. >> So, I feel that's so abundant. >> So different.
>> That's an abundant energy right there. abundance of happiness, optimism. >> Yeah, it felt very freedom.
>> This this clock flipping over, I said, "Whoop!" [laughter] You know those you
know those candles where like people will like tie them together and then they light them to like separate the
ties, which we did at a certain point. >> We did at one point >> at time. Um, it it feels like that.
>> No particular reason. >> No particular reason, but yeah, it feels like that is finally like
>> coming into play. You know what I mean? >> It feels good. >> It does. It feels good.
>> It feels very good. It feels like we can be we can have a lot of fun this year
with the show and with the rewatcher and with Scream and all these fun people are
going to be on the pod >> and Sirius just gets us like I we should say Sirius is the reason that we're
going to be on Watch what happens live because our deal Carrie What's up Carrie love you Carrie figured it all out
because she knows that like I'm a huge fan. She knows that you are like a New York housewives fan. She's like let's
[ __ ] do it. >> Yeah. And they just made it happen. So >> Sirius is the best. They've been
wonderful and we love working with them. >> And that was my computer talking to us
because [laughter] it said I'm the best too, >> you know. >> Um, what's not the best is that bad
things happen in life and >> we talk about them. But the good thing is that we can talk about them together.
>> We can. >> And that's the whole premise of the show. >> Wow, that was beautiful.
>> Thank you. >> I really liked that. >> Thank you so much. Uh, so we're going to
be talking today about the pizza bomber conspiracy. Oh >> yeah. I think we talked about this like
briefly in an episode because I kept waking up in the night to the trailer on Netflix. I remember that vividly. So do
I. >> Yes. >> It was just this one picture that was very frightening. >> Yeah. Cuz what is the name of the
documentary? It's like a >> evil something. Evil Genius. >> I think it's something like that. Evil
Genius. >> Evil Genius. Yeah. I thought >> And I vividly remember that and I remember you were you were like I keep
waking up to [laughter] this. I think it was like earlier days of the pod when I
was a little more free with my words. I probably was super explicit about how that made me feel back then.
>> I mean it it's rough. >> It was scary. >> That is not something you Yeah. It came
out in 2018. >> Yes. Yeah. So it was early days of the [laughter] early go back and you'll know
exactly how I felt about waking up to that. >> Um but let's actually talk about the
story because this is uh something we like like I just said briefly talked about but we've never gone into full
detail. >> So let's get into it. So let's go. We'll start at the beginning. >> That's a great place to start.
>> I always say I can't believe Also, this happened in like 2003, by the way, which
is nuts. >> I know. Which feels like it was 10 years ago. >> Oh, to me not at all.
>> Oh, literally it feels like it was 10. Like what? I literally said, "Here's to
2006 last night." >> Yeah. >> When me and my kids and my husband cheered. >> That's on
>> with our apple cider or sparkling cider. >> 2006. >> And John was like, "It's 2026, babe."
>> Yeah. He said, "You're 28." I was like, first of all, I'm on cold medicine and
second of all, can it be 2006 again? >> You said, let women have opinions, John,
on the time frame. [laughter] >> You said trust women. >> It's 2006. >> So, [laughter] all right. So, it was not
2006 here. It was 2003. And it was a little past 2:30 in the afternoon when 46-year-old Brian Wells walked into the
lobby of the PNC Bank on August 23rd. At first, nobody really noticed him. He was
just kind of like another guy sitting in a line of customers. But when he got to
the counter, the teller was caught off guard because in his right hand, Brian was holding what kind of looked like a
cane, but he wasn't using it as a cane. Like it didn't look functional. >> That would upset me.
>> Yeah, that would be pretty upsetting. Uh what would be even more uh upsetting is
in the other outstretched hand, he held what investigators later described as an
extensive note for the teller. The note part of it said, "Gather employees with access codes to vault and work fast to
fill bag with $250,000." >> Damn. >> You have only 15 minutes. >> Oh, I would immediately lose my mind.
>> [ __ ] if I have $100 in cash, I can't count that in 15 minutes. That takes a
minute. >> That'd be so stressful. So, when the teller looked up from the note, Wells
lifted his shirt to reveal a really bizarre device that looked like it was locked around his neck with a large
handcuff, like what looked to be a large handcuff. >> And on the front of the cuff, there was
a small box that allegedly contained an explosive device with an electronic timer that was hanging down over his
chest. You got to look up pictures of this to like really get a picture of it. It's the most horrifying thing you will
ever see. But according to the note that he handed the teller, the device was rigged to explode within 15 minutes. And
if they didn't hand over that amount of cash in that time frame, everybody in the bank, including Brian, would be
killed in the explosion. So the teller explained that that wasn't going to be possible because the bank vault was on a
timer. So there was literally no way that he could get in they could get inside to get that money. So instead,
they all emptied the cash from the drawers into the bag, which was a total of $8,72.
>> Very different. from 250,000. >> Yeah. >> And they handed it over to him. He took
a lollipop and slowly made his way out the door. >> The fact that he took a lollipop
>> just really offends me. >> Not only did he take a lollipop, he was also like swinging the cane as he walked
out the door just like gingerly wearing an explosive device strapped around his neck and chest.
>> I Okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So once he got outside, he hopped into his geometro and he sped away from
the scene while the staff in the bank said, "Hello, 911. I would like to report a [ __ ] robbery."
>> Hello. Hello. About 15 minutes later, two state troopers on patrol spotted Wells standing outside of his car in a
parking lot not too far from the bank. And as they approached him, they also noticed the large bulge around his neck.
And they were like, "That's strange." But they kept approaching and he seemed surprised as they tackled him and threw
him to the ground, cuffing his hands behind his back. >> Yeah. He didn't resist arrest, but he
explained that even though he was the person who, yes, had just robbed the bank, he was just as much a victim as
anybody else was. According to Brian, he had been accosted by a group of young black men earlier that afternoon, his
words. And they cuffed the bomb around his neck and told him that they were only going to remove it once he robbed
the bank. and he yelled at them, the police, warning them it's going to go off. I'm not lying.
>> So, this is serious as [ __ ] >> If if that is true, cuz I don't know what came out of this, so I don't know
what the theories are. I don't know what any of this is. >> If that's true, that is the scariest
thing I have ever heard in my life. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> Is you're sitting there with an
explosive device around your neck that you know is real. >> Yeah. >> And you're sitting there being like, I
swear I'm not. Please get this thing off of me. >> Yeah. And everybody's just like
>> it sounds like saw cuz that's the thing. >> That's all I could think of in the
beginning of this. I was like this literally sounds like do you want to play a game?
>> Like are you sure it wasn't like an older white man who who put that around your neck?
>> Yeah. >> Like are you sure? An ailing white man. >> Funny you should say that.
>> So the troopers ordered Wells to sit on the ground beside his car and they obviously backed away slowly to their
cars. They called the bomb squad, called reinforcements to the scene. And just as
troopers were calling for backup, a TV news crew arrived at the scene and started filming this very bizarre, drawn
out arrest, which it's like the video is available and it's absolutely horrifying. It does not end well.
>> So for 25 minutes, Brian Wells just sat on the ground beside his car, his hands
cuffed behind his back, his legs were curled underneath him, and they were just sitting there waiting for the bomb
squad, yelling back and forth to each other, like him and the officers. He asked if they would call his boss at
Mamma Mia's pizzeria to tell them that he was being detained and like wasn't going to make it back to work.
>> And then he yelled, "Why is nobody trying to come get this thing off of me?" >> Oh.
>> And then >> this is really upsetting. >> It's really upsetting. And this next
part is even more upsetting. Then without warning, the device around his neck started making a beeping sound that
was accelerating. And for the first time that afternoon, he became like visibly anxious and started scooting backwards
on the g on the ground. And they're yelling at him like, "You need to stay put." But
>> how do you in that situation? >> What? >> And a few seconds later, to the shock
and horror of absolutely everybody at that scene, the device around his neck detonated, knocking him onto his back,
obviously, and it ripped a 5in hole through his chest. >> Oh my god. >> Which obviously killed him instantly.
And three minutes later, the bomb squad arrived. Oh, >> like that sucks. It does. So, for the rest of
the day, agents from the local office of the FBI along with agents of the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and the local police all just converged on the explosion scene trying to figure out
what the [ __ ] had happened there. It was clear that he was the man who robbed the
bank earlier that day, and he said as much, and like his face had clearly been seen on camera. But what was unclear was
if he was a willing participant in the robbery or if he had been put up to it like he said. And obviously they
couldn't just take his word at face value >> because it wouldn't seem that he's a
willing participant if that thing is locked around his neck and he's sitting there being like you got to get it off
me. >> And the fact that it did explode like why would anybody ever sign up for that,
you know? So through interviews with his friends and co-workers, investigators were able to put together a picture of
Brian's life that indicated he really wasn't the kind of person who would have likely been able to pull off a stunt
like this. >> Okay. >> His boss, Tony Detoro, told a reporter, "I've known Brian for a long time. He
wouldn't kill a fly. He wouldn't harm nobody." Others who knew him said the same thing. His coworker Jim Sabowski
said, "He never seemed mad. I never heard him talk of violence. That's why this crime doesn't fit him. Not at all."
Oh, that's And the fact that he had them like call his boss. >> Yeah. To say like he wasn't going to be
late or not be there. Yeah. That broke my heart. >> It's very sad. Now, obviously, this kind
of thing happens all the time. Like, we've talked about this. People can conceal certain parts of themselves and
do awful things while putting on a nice face to everyone else in their life. >> But something more compelling was the
descriptions of Brian Wells. A lot of people described him as childlike. People said he was too simple, their
words, not mine, to have orchestrated something like this. Like it's a very >> put together that bomb.
>> Exactly. According to those who knew him, he had dropped out of high school during sophomore year and he had some
basic uh skills as a car mechanic, but he didn't have a lot of technical skills. So like you were just say like
he struggled using his computer. It wasn't going to be >> putting together a bomb feels like it
would be >> a little advanced. >> Yeah, exactly. So people were like, I don't know. So when investigators
searched his car, they found, among other things, the cane that he was seen holding in the security footage. But
upon closer inspection, it turned out that it wasn't a cane. So that teller was on to something. It was a homemade
shotgun disguised as a cane. [snorts] [ __ ] Isn't that crazy? And similarly, when bomb technicians analyzed the
explosive collar, it was also a very creatively designed device constructed from a locking metal collar and a bunch
of kitchen timers and a small box that held two 6-in pipe bombs. But in addition to the functional parts, there
were also several wires that ran in and out of the box, but connected to nothing. So, whoever put this together
had placed those wires that didn't go anywhere as decoys. I was just going to say it's like little decoy wires.
>> Yeah. To basically like whoever was going to >> [ __ ] with the bomb squad or
>> whatever. Yeah, exactly. That's >> advanced. >> Yeah, they knew what they were doing.
And it was also pretty clear this was not the first time they had built something like this to build it one so
well to be functional and two to add those extra things. >> So it was now abundantly clear that if
Brian Wells was even a willing participant at all, he obviously hadn't acted alone.
>> Yeah. Along with the gun and the bomb, technicians also discovered several handwritten notes, just like the one
that was given to the teller that seemed to be elaborate instructions for what was kind of looked to be like a bizarre
scavenger hunt is like the best way you can put it. >> The notes were all addressed to bomb
hostage and included instructions, but like very complex instructions, drawings, and other information telling
him what he needed to do to survive this. It really is very saw, >> which also doesn't seem make it seem
like he's involved. >> No, exactly. >> It's like he's the hostage. >> Exactly. It's literally addressed to a
hostage. One note said, "There is only one way you can survive this, and that is to cooperate completely. This
powerful booby trapped bomb can be removed only by following our instructions. Act now, think later, or
you will die." >> This is the most soft thing I've ever heard. >> It really is. >> Like, I'm I'm like, "What?" When you
find out how this was all put together, it's actually one of the scariest. No matter what, it's the scariest [ __ ]
you've ever heard. But then you come to find out like who was involved and how this all came to be and the the reason
for why it came to be is just it just doesn't seem to line up with any of this, but it also does at
the same time. It's wild. >> And was this 2003? >> 2003. Yeah. >> What's crazy is Saw the first one came
out in 2004. >> Really? Isn't that crazy? I was expecting there to be some kind of
>> connection there. >> Connection of maybe like somebody saw something, but no,
>> no pun intended. >> That's crazy, huh? >> But wow. >> Remember the day that we just watched
almost all of the Saw movies and John came home from work and was like, "What the [ __ ] are you guys doing?"
>> And I also remember the day that I watched the first Saw movie. >> Yeah. >> And how it changed my entire
>> I think the day that you and I watched them all was the day that I had seen them for the first time. The f the
[clears throat] first Saw movie >> so good changed things. That twist. >> Yeah. >> I'll never I'll never feel that feeling
again. >> I mean, you write a pretty good twist. >> I appreciate that. >> You give that feeling. Oh,
>> Lee Wanell. >> Lee Wanell. >> He gives that feeling. >> You know how she feels about Lee Wanell.
>> Lee Wanell. to listen to the invisible man. [laughter] [music] So, the information gathered during
inter uh an interview with Brian's boss supported the growing likelihood that he
was a victim. Yeah. According to his boss, he had been sent out on a delivery a few hours before the robbery. So he
was like at work that day that this all started like delivering pizzas. >> Delivering pizzas. He got a call. He
went to an address on Peach Street, which was like an industrial area in South Erie.
>> And aside from a television transmission tower, the area where the order was sent
to had a handful of small houses, multiple vacant lots, like it wasn't super populated. It was just like a
smaller town area. >> And given that he left the restaurant a little after 1:30 and never returned,
investigators suspected that's where everything had started. Makes sense. >> FBI agent Bob uh Hebell told reporters
he is sent to a non-resident. He goes where there's no house. Right from the beginning, there's certainly something
suspicious here. >> This is even scarier that he was just doing his job going to a house and they
just snatched him. >> It seems that way >> is what it seems like. And that that idea is terrifying.
>> The entire thing is [ __ ] horrifying. So Wells having been sent to deliver a
pizza to a non-address, like that was weird, obviously, but it wasn't the only weird thing that happened just before
the robbery. At the time of his death, he was wearing two t-shirts and the outer shirt had the guests logo on it.
And according to the people he was working with at the pizzeria that day, he wasn't wearing that shirt when he
left. And his family members insisted they had never seen him wearing that shirt and didn't even think that it
belonged to him. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. It's just weird. >> Like they put that shirt on him. Why?
You know, >> I don't know. I'm trying to think of what would be the >> I don't really understand that piece of
it. Is it supposed to be like ironic? >> Maybe. >> Like, guess what's in here? >> Oh, yeah. Probably.
>> Like, are they like a >> like a weird gross dark? >> Honestly, probably. >> Yeah.
>> Ew. >> I hate that even more. >> I hate that I thought that way, but here we go.
>> We've covered a lot of these cases, so it makes sense. And also, you were just
screaming about Lee Wanell, so it makes sense. >> Very true. >> We know who you I'll forever scream
about Lee [laughter] went home. >> So, while agents were digging into his background and searching his home, a
second set of investigators was trying to complete the scavenger hunt themselves, hoping, you know, maybe it
would lead them to any co-conspirators. After the bank robbery, the note instructed Wells to go to a McDonald's
restaurant nearby and look for a rock near the drive-thru sign. And under that rock, he was to find the next note. That
was as far as he had made it, but he was arrested just after he picked up the note.
>> Okay. So, the team followed the instructions in that note, and that led them to a wooded area out by Peach
Street, which is where they located the next note hidden in a container covered in orange tape. That note directed them
2 miles south to a small road sign where the next clue would be waiting in a jar
in the woods. >> Did he even have time to complete all this? >> Uh, like that's a lot of [ __ ]
>> Yeah, that's it is interesting. I don't >> Did they even give him enough time to
get conceivably through? Like even the container covered in orange tape. >> Yeah,
>> you got to get through that. >> I don't know. It feels like >> we could talk about it later.
>> Okay, >> that's a good point. >> Yeah. >> So, when they got to the location where
the next clue was supposed to be, they found nothing. >> So, they theorized that whoever had been
leaving the clues for Brian Wells had been following his progress and had probably abandoned the plan when they
saw him getting arrested by the state troopers. >> Oh, okay. So, unsurprisingly, the story
about the bank robbery and the collar bomb obviously immediately captivated everybody's attention, like public-wise.
FBI agent Bob Rudge told reporters, "It's not unusual for bank robbers to force tellers to hand over money by
claiming to be carrying explosives, but bank rob bank robbers who are act who actually have explosives are a bit more
unusual. And bank robbers who actually die when bombs go off are virtually unheard of."
>> Yeah. What makes this case different is that the robber was killed. Mhm. But unfortunately, if the press and public
were hoping for easy answers or a quick resolution, they were going to be very disappointed. A flurry of statements
from law enforcement officials went out, but there would really be little to update the press on in the days that
followed. This all just kind of hit a dead end pretty quickly. >> So, within a week of the robbery and
Brian Wall's death, investigators hadn't made any progress on the case, and they
started turning to the public for help. They released pictures of the bomb caller in the hopes that somebody might
recognize it, which I'm like I'm unsure about like imagine just being like, "Oh shit." And this calling in being
>> I saw that at Ted's house. >> Oh my god. I I know that caller like seen that.
>> Like what? >> Yeah. >> I'm not sure about that. >> I mean, you got to try. I guess
>> I guess what else are you going to do? >> You never know. >> I don't Maybe >> criminals can be stupid. So
>> they can and like maybe the way it was constructed might stick out to somebody
>> or like people sold some of the parts to somebody like that giant >> that cuz that giant piece that looks
like a big handcuff is pretty unique. I wonder if somebody was like oh >> I sold that rarely sell those but I did
sell that. >> You just never know. Yeah, but by then the case had obviously attracted
national attention and FBI agents were appearing on news programs like Good Morning America, Here, There, and
Everywhere to talk about the case. Even though there was an increase in public attention, though, new leads were scarce
and the public was growing very frustrated by the lack of progress here, which I can't imagine living in this
area and being like, "So, we don't know who tied a bomb around somebody's neck and are going to do it again." Exactly.
Like, is somebody just going to get kidnapped and have that happen? Imagine delivering pizzas in this place.
>> Oh, I just wouldn't. I'd be like, "Well, I I'll work here and I'll make the pizza, but you are not sending my ass.
>> I'll do I'll do whatever you need in this pizza shop, but I will not be going
out on the street." >> Yeah, [ __ ] I'll clean the toilets in this. >> People who like literally that's their
income. >> Yeah. >> And they're now having to be like, "Cool. I guess I just put my life on the
line delivering these pizzas, which I shouldn't have to be doing." Yeah, >> that sucks.
>> Scary [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> So, just days after Brian Wall's death, reporters descended on Erie. Of course,
people are like, "What the like we got to get some kind of story out of this." >> Yeah.
>> And I mean, it's a story in and of itself. >> A lot of them focused on Brian Wall's
co-workers and his family members, which is [ __ ] up. Maybe give them like a minute to grief.
>> Yeah. >> But a reporter and a photographer for the Eerie Times News decided to go out
to the address on Pete Street where Brian had been sent for the pizza delivery, which was pretty smart.
>> I don't know why. It just immediately made me think of Gail Weathers and Kenny.
>> Oh, yeah. >> Just like taking a different route, you know what I mean? >> She would do that.
>> Yeah. >> At first, it didn't really seem like there was a lot to be seen out by the
transmission tower in that whole area. But just as they were about to leave, the reporter spotted a man just standing
in his front yard a few feet from the tower. >> Oo. >> And they were like, there's a story
there. This also reminds me of the reporter and the photographer from um Hell House LLC.
>> Who go back in? >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Yep. So, the man that they saw standing in his yard was Bill Rothstein, a local
handyman and a lifelong resident of Erie. He didn't really take much notice of the heavy police presence and obvious
investigation taking place just a few yards from his house. He seemed pretty unbothered by it.
>> Yeah, he's got his own stuff, you know, >> he's vibing. He didn't seem to know
anything about Brian Wells either, but he was happy to talk to the reporter. He even offered to take them on a little
tour of the area around the tower. He said, "These are the trees. These are the houses."
>> He said the ground. This is Peach Street. That's the tower. If you look up, there's sky here.
>> This is my yard. It's my fence. >> It's crazy. >> After about 15 minutes, when he had run
out of things to say, the reporter and the photographer went on their way. >> The Eerie Times News reporter probably
assumed that that would be the first and last time that he would ever talk to or
hear of that man. >> I wouldn't assume that. >> You might after just after that quick
old tour. But less than a month later, Bill's name came up again. This time under very different circumstances. Uh
>> oh. So on September 20th, 2003, Bill Rothstein called 911 and told the dispatcher at 8645 Peach Street in the
garage, there is a frozen body. It's in the freezer. Bill, I love there's a frozen body. It's
in the freezer. He was like, just to be clear, >> it's a little redundant, babe.
>> Just to be clear, it is in a freezer. >> It's in the freezer. Uh >> what, Bill?
>> What have you gotten into, Bill? >> Well, the address. So he gave that address.
>> Okay. >> Like it wasn't his own, but it sure was his own. >> That's his [ __ ] house.
>> Yeah, Bill. >> He said, "Go to this address and you'll find a body in the freezer." By the way,
it's my [ __ ] address. >> Except he didn't say the last part. >> So they were dispatched to his house,
police, where they discovered, in fact, a body in the freezer. >> Was it frozen?
>> Yes. Can you believe it? >> I can't. >> It was the body of James Rooden in Bill's own chest freezer just like he
said. So, he was arrested right then and there on suspicion of murder. >> Bill, you got to come with us.
>> Yeah. They said, "You're coming with us, buddy. >> Thank you so much for letting us know
about this, but you got to come with us." >> Yeah. >> So, Bill was like, "Listen, that guy is
totally in my freezer." Like, I like I said, >> did not kill him, though. I have I have
nothing to do with his death. >> Who among us who hasn't found themselves there? Among Us has not found a body in
their own chest freezer that they didn't murder and had to say, "Guys, I didn't do that. I know this is my freezer.
>> I don't know how you got there." >> Babe, if it's in your house and it's in your freezer, that's now your problem.
>> That's your problem. >> Like in your problem. Exactly. >> You're responsible for that.
>> So he said, "No, I did not kill James Rooden, but I did participate in the cover up of his murder."
>> He said he said that fact had been tormenting him since the moment he agreed to hide the body at his house.
Five weeks earlier. >> Oh, >> you have had a body in your freezer, my guy. Scratch that. Guy.
>> A guy. >> For over a month, Bill. >> And you just called. How much was it really really tormenting you?
>> Bill. What's that about? Bill. Bill. Who are you friends with? Bill. >> Bill.
>> So, he said he >> I was rooting for Bill. >> I was too >> giving his little tour.
>> Yeah. So, this next part's really sad. He said that he was contemplating suicide and he even went as far as
writing a suicide note, but that he changed his mind and he decided to turn himself in instead.
>> I think that is a a good idea. >> So, in their search of his home, investigators did in fact find Bill's
suicide note on his desk written in black marker. The note contained repeated apologies. It identified the
body in the freezer as James Rhoden and insisted that he himself, Bill, had nothing to do with the death and it was
basically everything that he told police when he was arrested. But what was much
more interesting than all the stuff that Bill had already told the police was the
note's opening disclaimer, which read, "This has nothing to do with the Wells case." Referring to Brian Wells. "Why
the [ __ ] would the dead body in your freezer have anything to do with the man who was killed in an explosion after
robbing a bank? Did Did you just tattle on yourself?" Like, what? Period. What What's that? Like what's
that's why would you say that? Why the [ __ ] would you ever say that? >> They would have never in a million
connected those two things >> in a bill. There's nothing that would make you connect those two things except
for location because this was the last >> zebras. Yeah. Like I've said before, >> like sure, location could maybe make
them be like, whoa, weird. Like Peach Street is really [ __ ] popping off over here. Like that could be a thing.
>> Yeah, Peach Street is WY. But like let them do that. let them be like, "Whoa,
Peach Street is," >> you know what? We shouldn't say never in a million years, but like it would have
taken at least a little longer. >> It would have taken a And I just don't know why you would hand them
>> hand them that. >> Well, >> which again, I don't know what this has to do with anything, but it's weird to
point that out. >> It's weird. So, in the days that followed, Bill explained his connection
and how James Rooden had come to be in his freezer. According to him, he got a call from his ex-girlfriend, Marjgerie
Deal Armstrong, whose face I woke up to many nights in 2018. >> That's her face. Okay. He got a call
from her in mid August and she frantically asked for his help. She alleged that she had gotten into a very
heated argument over money with her boyfriend at the time, James Rhoden, and that in the process of that argument,
she had shot him in the back and killed him. So, she offered Bill $2,000 to help
her get rid of James' body and the gun. And Bill said, "Let's go." >> You got You got to not do that.
>> $2,000 is not enough money. Like, I that's a [laughter] lot of money. I'm not saying it's not a lot of money. Not
enough to hide a body in your freezer and get rid of a gun. >> When someone calls you, especially an ex
>> and says, >> "You broke up for a reason. >> I just killed my current >> partner." Yeah.
>> Will you help me cover this up? The answer is always no. >> You don't even have to answer. The
answer is dead air. Click. >> One, >> don't answer the phone when your ex calls. That's a really good tip.
>> And you can change their name in your phone to don't answer. >> You can do that. And then two, if you do
by chance answer and they say, "Hey, I just murdered my current partner. Will you please help me fix that?" You say,
"No, thank you." And then you just click. >> In your version, you're polite about it.
>> Yeah. Say, I mean, you should. They're a murderer now. So, like, you should be
like, "No, thank you." >> A little polite. >> No, thank you. Like, >> I do the I'd do the the click and then
I'd go arm my system. >> Yeah. That's a no. >> My system. It's my security. >> No. Thank Thank you so much for thinking
of me. >> Hope you're doing well. >> I've got a lot on my play right now. All the best with that and I wish you luck.
>> My freezer is full of yummies. >> You hang it up and you call 911 and you say, "Uhoh."
>> That's the other thing. You know that Bill had to like take out some TV dinners.
>> Yeah. It's [ __ ] up. >> That's the thing. >> It's [ __ ] up. >> That's a lot for an ex.
>> $2,000. >> Not worth it. >> This is [laughter] [ __ ] up. >> Real [ __ ] up. >> This whole thing.
>> All of it. So, Bill Bill said he had finally decided to go to the policeman just a few days earlier. Marjorie
suggested to him that they use an ice crusher to dismember James Roodin's body. >> I I mean, you give an inch, they're
going to ask for a mile. >> And you know what? You did give an inch, though. So >> So
>> So it turned out that this was not the first time the police in Erie had come
across Marjorie De Armstrong. In 1984, she was arrested for shooting and killing her then boyfriend, Robert
Thomas. Completely different guy. >> Yeah. >> What the [ __ ] At the time, she claimed
that he was being physically and sexually abusive toward her and that she shot him in self-defense. And four years
later, she was acquitted of murder, and she got probation for carrying an unlicensed firearm.
>> Okay. >> It turned out that James Rooden's death wasn't Bill Rothstein's first
association with killing either. >> Oh my. >> In 1970, Peach Street really does go
crazy. >> I was going to say Peach Street. >> What a unassuming name. >> Yeah, >> they should name it like Killer Street.
>> Rock Street. >> Nutso Street. Yeah. Pop off street. Poop street. Poop street. No TV dinners here
street. So in 1977, Bill played a similar role in the murder of local Eerie newspaper printer William Barry.
In that case, Rothstein provided the gun that was used in the shooting and gave uh Barry's killer, Lewis Allesie, a ride
home from the scene of the murder. >> He's getting himself. >> Yeah, it's sticky.
>> It is sticky situation. >> It is sticky. Two years later, Bill was granted immunity in exchange for his
testimony against Allessie, who was ended up being sentenced to 10 years for thirdderee murder. Lead investigator
Dominic Depalo told reporters, "You would think that someone who was involved in a homicide years ago would
have learned his lesson, but for whatever reason, it looks like this guy didn't."
>> Apparently not. >> That's pretty much what you just said. >> Yeah. >> So, 2 days after Bill was arrested, this
most recent time, police picked up Marjorie Dale Armstrong and charged her with the murder of James Rooden. A quick
check of their records revealed that Marjorie had actually filed a protection from abuse order against James Rooden
about a month earlier and a hearing had been scheduled. So in her defense, she claimed that she had nothing to do with
James Rooden's death and she blamed it on Bill. So now we're pointing fingers at each other.
>> Oh. >> According to her, she said she got home on the afternoon of August 13th and she
found her boyfriend dead. She said, "I never touched the body. I never saw it. Don't even know what it looks like. He
did it all." Whoa. Like you you probably do know what he looks like though because he was your boyfriend.
>> A flip-flop. >> Yeah. So despite her repeated claims of innocence, the evidence and Bill
Rothstein's statement to police obviously implicated Marjgery Deal Armstrong in James Rooden's death. And
by January 2004, she was indicted on charges of homicide, aggravated assault, and abuse of a corpse, among a few other
things. Whoa. So, in the months that followed, the defense and the prosecution argued back and forth over
all the pre-trial motions and all that stuff until the trial date was finally set for mid January 2005. But just days
before the trial, Marjorie Dale Armstrong surprised everybody by accepting a plea deal where she would
plead guilty to thirddegree murder and abuse of a corpse in exchange for a sentence of 7 to 20 years. And in her
confession, she alleged that quote, "Her mental illness had prevented her from understanding that her actions were
wrong." Okay. Yeah. So, like I mentioned a minute ago, James Rooden was unfortunately not the only men who
Marjgerie De Armstrong had killed. In fact, according to journalist Rich Shapiro, De Armstrong was one of Erie's
most notorious figures, well known for her string of dead lovers. Whoa. In addition to James Rooden and Robert
Thomas, who I told you she did kill, she alleges in self-defense, Marjgery's former husband, Richard Armstrong, also
died under suspicious circumstances in 1988. Officially, his cause of death was cerebral hemorrhage and was ruled
accidental, but according to Shapiro, Richard Armstrong had a head injury when he arrived at the hospital, but the case
was never forwarded to the coroner's office. What the [ __ ] was wrong with that hospital? I don't know, man. You
forward that [ __ ] You gotta. >> That's wild. >> Yeah. So, the deaths connected to
Marjorie were not the only things that made her notorious and eerie. As far back as high school, she had a
reputation for being incredibly intelligent. She's was a very smart woman, >> but she was wildly unstable. She did
have a lot of mental health issues. >> Court records indicate that she had been diagnosed with bipolar in the past and
that when she was manic, she would demonstrate very strange behavior. In one incident just before the shooting of
Robert Thomas in 1984, investigators were called to her house for a well-being check. And when they entered
the home, you will never be prepared for this information. I just need you to know.
>> When they entered the home, they, and this is not exaggeration, they found 400
lb of butter and more than 700 lb of cheese in the house, which sounds [ __ ] awesome, except that all of it
was rotting. Sit with that. >> Sit with that. It was [laughter] It was how you said which sounds [ __ ]
I love butter and cheese. I'm a thick girl. Rotting. No thanks. [laughter] 400. Where does one even purchase
400 lb of butter? I do love butter. >> I bought like three boxes of butter the other day to bake and I felt cuckoo.
[laughter] I was like, "Oo, this person's my my Instacart driver is going to be like, damn, bitch." 400 lb.
I don't even know what that looks like. >> I can't conceive. >> Where do you 700 lb of cheese? I can
sort of con conceive of because those big ass cheese wheels. >> Do you [laughter] think that's what they
are? >> I don't know. >> Just wheels of cheese. >> I kind of hope so. >> Or is it?
>> I mean, it's all rotting, so obviously it wasn't all in the refrigerator. >> Obviously that Bill doesn't have room in
his [ __ ] freezer back then. >> No. Doesn't have room for butter and cheese, but has room for a dead body.
>> Holy [ __ ] Yeah, that's I mean that's also like in all seriousness that's also
a very clear indication that something is wildly arai here very much so. >> People don't just have 400 lb of butter
and 700 lb of cheese rotting in their house. >> You know what's crazy is somebody in the
comments will argue with you about that. >> Yes, probably. >> But that's a fact.
>> But I do think that is a very clear indication that something is off. I think so too,
>> personally. >> So, just a few months later, Marjorie was arrested for the shooting death of
Thomas. So, obviously, like she wasn't in a like we laugh about the butter and the cheese, but it in all seriousness,
like you just said, something was going on and there was a clear path. >> Exactly.
>> So, during the investigation of uh Thomas's death, Marjorie was evaluated by a psychiatrist who described her as
paranoid and narcissistic. And in that case, she actually had to be evaluated seven times before she was deemed fit to
aid in her own defense during the trial. Wow. Apparently, she really wanted to. So, throughout the investigation into
James Rooden's death, now we're we're back to where we started a little. >> Detectives hadn't forgotten about Bill
Rothstein's suicide note and the opening claim that Rhoden's murder had quote nothing to do with the Brian Wells case.
>> Yeah. >> They were like, why did he write that? Why would somebody open a suicide note
by declaring emphatically that they had nothing to do with a murder that they were never suspected of committing in
the first place? >> And apparently didn't really know much about anyways according to that
journalist. >> Exactly. >> When they spoke to them, seemed like he didn't really know anything about it.
>> Or was he just a really good actor? >> Yeah. >> So unfortunately by that time, Bill had
passed away from lymphoma. So he wasn't going to be able to provide any insight into the unsolved death of Brian Wells.
But Marjgerie Deal Armstrong was. And as it turned out, she was willing to talk for a price. Well, let's hear it,
Marjorie. [music] So, in the summer of 2005, not long after Marjorie started serving her
sentence for the James Rooden murder, FBI agents were still working the Wells collar bomb case. And we're like, "What
the [ __ ] happened here?" Yeah. >> And they got a call from eerie detectives who were wrapping up loose
ends on the road and murder still. It was during one of their postconviction conversations with Marjorie that she
casually brought up Bill's suicide and his suicide note. According to Marjorie, Bill had lied when he said that James
Rooden's death had nothing to do with Brian Wells. Actually, she said it had everything to do with it. And if they
were willing to arrange for a transfer for her, she would tell them all about it.
>> Oh. Yeah, she wanted to go to a minimum security facility. Excuse me. >> She said, "If you move me over there,
I'll tell you everything." >> So, according to her, Brian Wells, and remember this is according to her who
was convicted of a crime and struggles with mental health. >> Yes. >> According to her, Brian Wells was not a
victim in the collar bombing case. He was also one of the perpetrators. She claimed that the entire plot to rob
the PNC bank of $250,000 had actually been masterminded by Bill Rothstein himself.
>> Himself. I just stuttered or not stuttered, lisped. >> He also, she said, built the cane gun
and the collar bomb. >> When investigators searched Bill's house, they did end up finding several
items that somebody might use in a bomb construction. >> So, that was interesting. But to hear
Marjorie tell it, it was Bill and Brian Wells who were behind the entire scheme.
And all she had done was just give them some kitchen timers to use in the explosive. She was just helping a couple
of pals out. >> I just don't understand. >> Yeah. >> Why that makes sense for Brian.
>> It doesn't. >> Okay. >> So, what Marjorie didn't know at the time of her meeting with the FBI was
that they already suspected her of being involved in that entire plot, the bomb collaller plot. In previous weeks, they
had actually met with multiple informants, including Bill's former roommate, Floyd Stockton, and his
ex-wife, Janet Ponsford, who actually kept detailed notes about their interactions with Marjorie.
>> Oh. So, like Marjorie, Floyd Stockton had also known Bill for decades. And they were all part of this like group of
very like local antisocial, very smart, intellectual people. like it was like kind of a group of outcasts who were
smart, >> like genius level smart >> who >> like hung out every now and again. >> So, by the time Marjorie was convicted,
Floyd Stockton had also just started serving his own prison sentence after he was found guilty of sexually assaulting
a teenager who had developmental disabilities. >> So, he's disgusting. And also keep in mind he was talking
because he was looking for anything that was going to lessen his sentence. >> What a group of [ __ ]
>> Truly. >> Truly. >> And like I hate sitting here and saying that they're this like intellectual
group of people because like obviously not because they're doing the things that they're doing, but they're
intellectual on a different level. Like do you I'm not >> They are able to comprehend complex
concepts. >> Thank you. >> For certain topics. >> Thank you. But they are obviously not
able to understand the difference between being Well, they do. That's the thing. I think they do understand.
They're just bad people. >> Exactly. But I just don't want anybody to think I'm crazy.
>> Bad people, unfortunately, can be both smart. >> Mhm. >> And that's just the way this is.
>> Mhm. So Floyd Stockton wasn't the only member of Marjgery's bizarre social circle who found themselves in trouble
with the law and wanted to exchange information for freedom. They were like a lesser sentence.
>> So they're all just gross. >> Oh, yeah. And there's more. Not long after investigators spoke with Floyd and
Janet, another witness came forward with what would prove to be some of the most
important testimony in this entire case. >> Oh [ __ ] >> It was late in 2005 at this point and
Marjorie was already talking to the FBI when agents got a call about a recently arrested crack dealer named Kenneth
Barnes. It this all just goes crazy. >> I was Is there anything that's not in this case?
[sighs and gasps] >> I don't know. No. No, >> I tried to come up with sensors, but
there was already 400 lb of butter. So, >> yeah, there was there's really nothing
you can point to. >> So, now we're talking about a recently arrested crack dealer named Kenneth
Barnes. >> Okay, >> so like Bill Rothstein and Floyd Stockton, Kenneth Barnes had kind of
talent a talent with mechanics and had worked as a repairman for many years, but hadn't been able to maintain a
steady job. So, he turned to selling drugs to support himself. Apparently, he had spoken too loudly and too often
about the PNC bank robbery. And after he was arrested on drug charges, his brother-in-law reported him to the
police on suspicion of murder. Uh-oh. Now threatened with more jail time for the murder of Brian Wells, Kenneth
Barnes caved and agreed to give the DA a detailed account of the entire plan that
had to do with the pizza bomb collar in exchange for a lighter sentence. >> Damn. Yeah, this is deep.
>> It really is. and it involves so many different players. >> So, the story that Kenneth Barnes told
the FBI about the bomb collaller plot would have been unbelievable, but it kind of corroborated the evidence and
what they already suspected about the case. Obviously, not every piece of it. Like, who knows if every piece of it is
true or is not because there's so many people involved here >> that are talking and looking for
something >> trying to save their own ass like >> Exactly. But that's I just have to tell
you what they said. >> Damn. So, according to Kenneth Barnes, Marjorie had masterminded the entire
bomb plot in in order to get a large sum of money, which she planned to use to pay a hitman to murder her father. So,
when I said the reason at the center of this is just so absolutely unbelievable.
>> Yeah. She set this whole thing up allegedly >> and to hire >> this guy died so that she could hire a
hitman to commit another murder. Yes. >> Whoa. Yeah. >> Okay. >> Because she worried that her dad was
spending his own fortune too fast and that there wasn't going to be anything left for her when he died. So, she ought
to just kill him now. She felt >> I'm speechless. >> I don't know, man. >> So, Barnes, he said he didn't know the
details about that plan. >> Who does? I don't I don't even think she does. >> Yeah, exactly. and he didn't really know
all of the details about the pizza bomb plan, but what he did know was that Marjorie had roped the other man into
the plan basically by just like bullying them until they all agreed to help her.
>> Wow. >> Which I do believe. >> I mean, yeah. >> I woke up in the night to her face many
times and I just believe that she could bully people into doing some crazy [ __ ]
>> Yeah. So, according to Barnes, and again, according to him, Brian Wells had only agreed to wear the bomb collar
because he thought it wasn't real. Oh, yeah. He also alleged that Marjorie had murdered James Rooden because he knew
about the plot and he was going to tell about the robbery. >> Okay. >> So, it's all kind of becoming connected.
The Brian Wells thing still isn't adding up to me though cuz I'm like he they said he seemed genuinely
>> anxious and scared at the end of that like this is going to happen. If he didn't think that was real,
>> why was he freaking out? >> Yeah, exactly. >> You know what I mean? >> I don't know.
>> It's all but I don't know. Again, >> it's all very strange and [clears throat] and that's why I'm
saying like take what they're saying with a grain of salt because we don't know at the end of the day like Brian
Wells isn't here to say and he died a horrific death. >> Yeah. So like I don't want to speculate
>> speculate if he was part of it. >> Yeah. But the next time investigators met with Marjorie in February 2006 now
she had her attorney by her side fully expecting to make a deal with the state cuz she has no idea that now all these
people are coming forward and being like Marjorie did it. >> Yeah. Being like she bullied us for far
too long. >> Yeah. >> Instead of being offered a deal though, she was informed that she was now being
indicted for the murder of Brian Wells and several other crimes associated with the Bombller plot.
>> Oops. According to Rich Shapiro, when Marjorie was first informed of the indictment, she went quote ballistic,
slamming her fist on a conference table and cursing out the agents and her own lawyer.
>> Whoa. But that didn't stop her from continuing to fill in the gaps in Kenneth Barn's account of the robbery.
And she kind of spilled everything. >> Oh. >> For hours, she went over the entire
plan, telling agents where she was on the day and even offering to take them on a tour of the area to point out the
logistics of the plan. So, she like lost it on them and then was like, "Fine, I'll tell you
everything. >> I'll tell you everything details." >> Like, I think she was trying to say like
she wasn't at the she wanted to control the narrative at this point. >> Precisely. Because remember, she's also
a diagnosed narcissist. >> So, on July 11th, 2007, US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan held a press conference to
announce that after four years of intense investigation and more than a thousand interviews at that point, they
had finally broken the case of the caller bomber. In her press conference, uh, Buchanan identified Marjorie Deal
Armstrong as the mastermind of the bomb plot, and the motive, she said, was simple greed.
>> Lead ATF agent Mark Potter told reporters, "The investigation was about greed that created fear and resulted in
death. The brutality and utter lack of respect for life displayed by the indicted is rarely seen outside of a
movie screen." >> Yeah, which is very true. Now, probably most shocking to everybody at the press
conference was that contrary to what they had assumed originally, investigators now believed that Brian
Wells was not just a victim of the bomb plot, but also a participant. They were told that he agreed to wear the bomb
collar and rob the bank with the understanding that the bomb was fake and that the scavenger hunt that had
perplexed the investigators was just a distraction to fool them and make it seem like Brian wasn't involved.
>> Okay. But unfortunately, they said by the time he realized he had been betrayed by his co-conspirators, it was
too late. That's their theory. I'm not saying that's mine. >> But it's like, have they even proved
like a real connection between Brian Wells and these people? >> Sort of. >> It's like I just doesn't feel like there
was a strong enough >> I haven't gotten fully to it. So, >> you know. >> Yeah. Well, later that year, Kenneth
Barnes pleaded guilty to conspiracy and weapons charges related to the robbery and the death of Brian Wells, and he
ended up getting a sentence of 45 years in prison. So, I was like, you really thought you were going to get a lighter
lighter sentence? But really, here we are. >> He did agree to testify against Marjorie, though, in exchange for a
lighter sentence. But before Marjorie could go to trial, her lawyer filed a motion for a hearing to determine her
competency, arguing that she was unfit to assist in her own defense, which I was like, "Girl, we've been through this
before. or why are you still trying to >> to assist in your >> just don't do it.
>> I honestly think it was to delay the trial. >> Yeah. >> In late 20 >> she's a diagnosed narcissist so she she
can do it >> precisely. So in late 2008 now she was transferred to a federal medical center
in Carwell Texas where she underwent a 4-month period of observation and evaluation. In her initial evaluation,
doctors at the medical center indicated that she was quote not cooperative with questioning, engaged in perpetual
talking, complained, and was grandiose and paranoid. Delightful. Yeah. In the months that followed, her behavior and
her symptoms did not seem to get any better. She was frequently described as manic and oppositional. She refused to
take her medication. She repeatedly insisted that she was not mentally ill. And other inmates also found themselves
in conflict with her all the time. And she was repeatedly reported to the hospital staff for being a quote bully,
hostile, and mean person. >> I buy that. >> I mean, it literally fits with exactly
what everyone else was saying that she basically bullied them into this. >> And also, the entire motivation for this
was that she wanted to hire a hitman to kill her father >> because he was spending his money.
>> So, I do believe she's probably a mean person. >> She's probably pretty unreasonable.
>> Props. So by the end of her observation period at the end of four months, uh Marjorie had become somewhat more
compliant, but that I mean that's not really saying much. But in her final evaluation, she was diagnosed again with
bipolar disorder and personality disorder with borderline paranoid and narcissistic traits. One psychiatrist
wrote, "A review of Miss Armstrong's records indicate pervasive and long-standing characterological deficits
in her ability to relate and function in social and personal contexts." >> Damn. Yeah. So, it's a lot. That's a
lot. Yeah. She definitely struggles with her mental health in a big way. But based on the reports from the doctor at
the medical center, a federal judge in Pennsylvania concluded that she was definitely not mentally fit to stand
trial, which >> sounds like it. >> Yeah, that's the thing. Like, I kind of agree with that.
>> Agreed. >> So, in the two years that followed, she was evaluated multiple times until she
was finally deemed mentally sound to be able to stand stand trial. [snorts] But by that time, she had been diagnosed
with glandular cancer, and a doctor estimated that she only had between 3 and seven years to live.
>> Wa. >> So despite that grim prognosis, the prosecutor decided to move forward with
the trial, and the date was set for October 12th, 2010. >> Yeah. I mean, people don't give a [ __ ]
>> Yeah. People died. >> Yeah. You still need to be prosecuted. >> So, the trial was obviously as
sensational and dramatic as you would expect from a story that begins with a bomb caller and a bank robbery. Some of
the most damning testimony presented at the trial came from seven witnesses who testified that Marjgery had revealed
various facts about the plot both before and after Brian Wells death to them. The
prosecution star witness was Kenneth Barnes and he told the entire story offering answers to the question that
still remained unanswered. Was Brian Wells truly a participant here? But again, we're relying on him who's
looking for a lesser sentence. >> Yeah. So, according to Barnes, all of Marjgery's co-conspirators have been
roped into the plot with the promise of money. But unlike the others, Brian Wells was not motivated by greed. In the
months leading up to the robbery, Kenneth said that Wells was in a relationship with a sex worker who he
supplied with crack in exchange for sex. However, just a few weeks before the robbery, Kenneth said that Wells found
himself in debt to a crack dealer and was desperately in need of money. And it was only because of that debt that he
agreed to participate. >> Okay, that brings a little more like >> a little more connection.
>> A little more. And and you can sit there and be like, "Okay, that sounds more
like just from his characterization that like he wouldn't just be like, "Yeah, I
just want a [ __ ] ton of money for no reason." You know, like that desperation seems like the only way I would even
slightly buy that he was a willing participant. >> Yeah. But even still, >> and even at that point, was he a willing
participant? Does desperation count as a as being a willing participant? >> Well, great question.
>> As for his ultimate victimization, Kenneth Barnes explained that on the day of the robbery, Brian Wells realized the
bomb was real and he tried to back out of the plan and ran from the house, but he was chased down by Bill Rothstein and
the bomb collar was locked on his neck at gunpoint. >> Yes. So, that's not a will. was a
full-blown victim at all of this, which >> if that's even the case, >> if that's the case, that's [ __ ]
horrific. >> Yeah. >> So, throughout most of the testimony, Marjorie could be seen whispering to her
lawyer. She frequently interrupted the testimony, just shouting liar at anybody who said anything unflattering about
her. But when it was time for her to take the stand in her own defense, she was equally combative. Rich Shapiro
wrote, "For 5 and 1/2 hours over two days, she used the witness stand as her stage. She ridiculed her own lawyer. She
belittled the prosecutor. She cried. She yelled. E. >> During the testimony, the judge actually
reprimanded her more than 50 times with like no effect. >> Like, why are we still allowing her to
speak? >> Yeah. But in the end, she did herself no favors by taking Exactly. The jury
deliberated for 11 hours before emerging to find her guilty of armed bank robbery, conspiracy, and using a
destructive device in a crime of violence. And finally, in late February 2011, she was sentenced to life in
prison for the death of Brian Wells. And she got an additional 30 years for the bank robbery. When she was asked for a
statement, she told reporters, "My heart goes out to the family. The true killers
are still out there." >> Oh, [ __ ] you. >> You piece of [ __ ] [ __ ] you. >> [ __ ] off. So Marjorie and her defense
team obviously appealed her sentence to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals, arguing that she wasn't competent to
stand trial in the first place, but the court ended up siding with the lower court, which just affirmed her sentence.
>> Yeah. >> Ultimately, she really didn't end up spending most of her life in prison or
much of her life in prison. On April 4th, 2017, at the age of 68, she died of breast cancer at the Federal Medical
Center in Carwell, Texas. And in an odd conclusion to an already very bizarre case, which we've went through almost
every detail of today, right after she died, a New York man named Mark Marvin came forward saying he was her common
law husband and argued in a federal court that she was not dead. Humans aren't okay. We're not all right.
>> And he said, "She's not dead, but if she is, then I want her remains released to
me. because I am her common law husband who came out of absolutely nowhere. >> His
request was denied. >> It was I can't I can't imagine why. >> I just like the she's not dead but give
me your body. >> Yeah. Which is it? >> Okie do. >> You got to pick a lane, babe.
>> All righty. >> You got to pick a lane. >> If anybody has watched the Real Housewives of Chicago, it's or not Real
Housewives, Mob Wives Chicago, it's giving that. >> Okay. So, after testifying against
Marjgery, Kenneth Barn's sentence was cut in half and he's currently serving his sentence at the Federal Medical
Center in Butner, North Carolina. That's hilarious to me. >> And is scheduled to be released in
September of 2027. >> Oh, okay, Kenneth. >> So, good luck to >> Good luck to that.
>> Wow. The most complex, interwoven, full of cheese and butter story I've ever heard. And at the end of the day, I
believe that no matter what the real story is, because I don't think we ever got the real story of Brian Well's
involvement, he's a victim. >> Tragic, >> tragic, tragic. It may It breaks my [ __ ] heart. No matter what happened
there. >> Horrible way to go. >> Yeah, cuz I just Nothing about that feels like a willing participant. No
matter what the situation was, it sounds horrific in that. Oh, I And I hate that
like that poor guy's last moments are on film. Yeah. and him begging them to take
that thing off of him. >> It never should have been filmed and it never upsetting. And I remember when
this documentary came out, the Evil Genius one on Netflix, >> that preview, >> that preview, I was like, I don't know.
>> I never watched >> I never watched the documentary, but I remember being so like what the [ __ ] is
this about cuz I was like, there's this guy with a bomb on him. Then they show this woman on the thing, which there's
like two different pictures of her. Yeah. >> But now it looks like it was like one of
her younger and one of her Yep. like more recent. >> Yep. >> And I remember being like, I don't know
what this is about. I meant to watch it, but I just never did. >> I just couldn't bring myself to watch it
because I knew I I had already seen that clip, I think, on like one of those like
countdown shows or something like that. And I was like, I just can't watch it again.
>> Yeah. Yeah, >> but what a [ __ ] gnarly. >> That's a wild story. It is. And it just
involves so many people. And how do those kind of people find each other? >> That's the thing. Nothing good came out
of that. >> Oh, let me get a quick fun fact, though. >> Okay, guys. I found a fun fact about
peeing because Alina just had to take a potty break. >> Oh my god. I just drank an entire thing
of water during this. Like every time. >> A whole broomade of water. And I thought
I was dying. I was like, I have to pee [laughter] so bad. >> Nothing like the feeling though of when
you do that. Oh, I feel a new Well, here's the fun fact. It's kind of ridiculous, but it's wild that I found
that as you were leaving to go to the bathroom. The male giraffe will continuously headbutt the female in the
bladder until she urinates. The male then taste the urine to determine if the female is ovulating, and if so, the
merrynt begins. I don't know what I [laughter] expected, but it wasn't. >> That's not it.
>> That's what I got from randomfact generator.com. I mean, I guess they don't have like aura rings or like Apple
watches to tell you when you're ovulating. So, they're like, "Got to do it the old fashion." [laughter]
>> Is that the oldfashioned way? He tastes her piss to see if she's ovulating. >> First of all, he bullies her into
peeing. >> Yeah, that's rude. >> Which at first when it was like poking her until she pees, I'm like, "Well,
maybe she's like me and she just like doesn't pee." So, he's just trying to be like, "You don't want to get a kidney
infection, babe." >> He says, "I want to have calves with you, so >> I'mma poke you till you pee and I can
taste [laughter] your pee and see if I can impregnate you." I have never damn heard those words strung together.
>> And here we are just like peeing on sticks or checking our aura rings to see if we're ovulating.
>> Holy different life led. >> What a fun fact to end on. Thank you for that. >> Well, we hope you keep listening.
>> Yeah, we do. We hope [laughter] we hope you keep it. But it's so weird that you poke your
wife and then taste her pest to see if she's ovulating. [laughter] You're not a giraffe.
But I mean like you're an adult. Do what you want to do. >> [laughter] >> with consent.
Kinky [music] [music] >> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

On the afternoon of August 23, 2003, Erie, Pennsylvania pizza delivery driver Brian Wells walked into the local branch of the PNC Bank and handed the teller a note warning that he had a bomb and they had fifteen minutes to hand over $250,000 or it would detonate. Unable to access the vault, the teller gave Wells all the cash on hand and he left as the employees triggered the emergency protocol. Fifteen minutes later, Wells was spotted by police and placed under arrest. However, when they went to put handcuffs on the suspects, the officers discovered that Wells did indeed have an explosive device on him—it was strapped to his neck and rigged to explode. Officers cleared the area, but failed to alert the bomb squad in time and the device eventually exploded, killing Wells just three minutes before the bomb squad arrived.

References Associated Press. 2003. "Witness also helped in 1977 slaying." Scranton Times, September 25: 5. —. 2003. "Woman charged in roomate's death." The Sentinel (Carlisle, PA), September 23: 2. Dao, James. 2003. "A childlike pizza deliveryman at the center of a puzzling crime." New York Times, September 5: A12. Fuoco, Linda Wilson. 2003. "Robber, co-worker death query." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, September 1. Fuoco, Michael. 2007. "Feds say collar bomb victim was part of plot." Pitsburgh Post-Gazette, July 12: 1. Lin, Judy. 2003. "Erie bank robber explodes in police custody." Citizens' Voice (Wilkes-Barre, PA), August 31: 5. —. 2003. "Bomb-case probers urge patience." Patriot-News (Harrisburg, PA), September 5: B5. —. 2003. "Man may have been forced to rob Erie bank." The Daily Item (Sunbury, PA), August 31: 3. Mandak, Joe. 2011. "Woman gets life plus 30 in collar-bomb death." Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, March 1: 1. Nephin, Dan. 2003. "Woman acquitted of boyfriend's death 15 years ago charges with killing another." The Morning Call (Allentown, PA), September 23: 14. Schapiro, Rich. 2011. "Collar bomb." Wired, Janaury. Times-Tribune. 2005. "Woman pleads guilty in killing." Times-Tribune (Scranton, PA), January 9: 2. United States of America v. Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong. 2009. 1:07-cr-26-SJM (United States District Court for the Western District of Pennsylvania, September 8). United States of America v. Marjorie Diehl-Armstrong. 2012. 11-1601 (United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit, September 25). Wire News Service. 2003. "Neighbors say bank robber led quiet life." Patriot-News (Harrisburg, PA), September 4: B3.

Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Listener Tale Theme Music licensed from https://www.purple-planet.com Main Theme: Matti Paalanen — Trick or Treat — Provided by Jamendo Ad Music: Title: Artist: BlueJay Studio — Spooky Waltz — Provided by Jamendo

Brief Summary

The episode covers the pizza bomber conspiracy involving Brian Wells, Marjorie Deal Armstrong, and Bill Rothstein, detailing the robbery and its tragic outcome.

Key points

The Viral Plague. Ash and Elena discuss their recent illnesses and the viral plague affecting many.
Watch What Happens Live. Excitement builds as Ash and Elena prepare for their appearance on the show.
The Pizza Bomber Conspiracy. The hosts introduce the chilling story of the pizza bomber conspiracy.
The Horrifying Arrest of Brian Wells. Brian Wells sits helplessly as a bomb collar detonates, leading to a shocking investigation.
The Discovery of the Body. Bill Rothstein calls 911 to report a frozen body in his garage, leading to his arrest.
Bill's Confession. Bill admits to participating in the cover-up of a murder, revealing his torment.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

40 is the new 30.

Elena reassures Ash about turning 40.

6:10WatchJan 5, 2026

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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