Caryl Chessman: The Red Light Bandit | Morbid | Podcast | Forensic Files

This summer, we're keeping it cool and of course keeping it weird with the brand new Morbid Crimson Summer
Collection. We're excited to share with you a limited time tea, hoodie, and canshaped glass. All perfect for those
hot summer days and cool nights. We are truly obsessed with the elegant design and the Morbid logo on the sleeve. I
love a logo on a sleeve. Get yours today at wondershop.com/morbid before it's too late. Hey weirdos. I'm
Elena. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid. Yay. Yay. Morbido. Um, the first big news is that Ash has finally come over
to the side of wanting ball and getting annoyed when people now she understands why it's annoying when people go, "Can
you just let me have my summer?" >> I know. I'll kill them. >> Um, yeah, she's there now. I am.
>> I took Dolores out, you know, my dog. I took Dolores out the other morning and
it was so it was like 8:00 in the morning and it was so [ __ ] hot out already and I said, "You know what? To
hell with this." >> Yeah. >> I just want I want to wear a sweatshirt comfortably. I want to wear my
>> I have So Oh, shut your [ __ ] face over there with the cozy fall cooking. I started ordering new Halloween
decorations. I just want to decorate now. I want my house. It fall is just cozy and I want to be cozy. I'm not
cozy. I'm sweaty and I'm tired of being sweaty. And she told me this and the first thing I said is now picture
someone saying just let me have my summer. Summer just started. And how do you feel?
>> I said I'll kill them. >> And she literally said I'll kill them. I'll kill them. And I said I love when
that happens. >> I love when when somebody else gets it. Oh, I just want it. so bad. And I want
my like pumpkin drinks. This summer has been too hot, too muddy, >> too [ __ ] hot.
>> The bugs are huge. I don't know why. >> No, I opened my slider yesterday. I wish
this was visual just for this one moment. There had to be a bug with wings, mind you.
>> 4 in long and 4 in thick. >> What's going on there? >> No, I don't. It's something hellacious.
>> Something hellacious going on. They're from the Hellmouth. I saw um we went to
the uh Ghost show in Baltimore, John and I. >> Uh >> have we recorded since then?
>> I don't think we have. Um it was [ __ ] amazing. >> Yay. >> Um I'm not going to say anything to give
anything away. You got a cool sweatshirt. >> Yeah, I did get I got a Batwing sweatshirt.
>> Yeah, that's fun. >> Um I got the girls some things. >> Oh, you did? >> Of course.
>> I didn't even see. >> Uh I met some listeners there. Um that was fun and cool.
>> I love that. And it was funny because one listen uh one listener came up like
while we were at our seats and was like hey and like that was like oh my god I listen to the podcast and I was like
girl >> I noticed you when you walked in the arena cuz she was just wearing like you
know like when ghost concerts everybody's like dressed up like you know in wild ways cool ways it's really
fun to people watch and like participate and this girl had walked in and I was like wow she just looks phenomenal like
I just like it was one of those things where you're just like wow like like you're just like [ __ ]
>> Like I just happened to notice her when she walked in. She had like really pretty hair and I was like wow.
>> And so I had said to John I was like wow she looks like amazing. I just like noticed her and she was the one who came
up and was like I listened to the podcast so I was like girl I noticed you the second you walked in the most
wholesome experience. >> Stunning everywhere they go >> literally cuz I eyes went right to her.
>> That's a serve. >> Um but it was like a lot of fun. And the the reason I'm saying this is because in
Baltimore the when I got off the train, I immediately saw one of those lantern flies that like I think like
Pennsylvania got infested with for a little while. They're invasive, I'm pretty sure. Like they go crazy. E
>> um they're kind of cool looking though. I don't want to be in invaded by them.
>> I don't want to be invaded period. So it's like so like I'm not here to tell you like oh it's really cool that
you get attacked by lantern flies every year. >> Wasn't um Doug Bradley was talking about
on our ghost episode. >> It was actually I don't know if it got >> if it got cut from like the final I'm
not sure how much of the conversation was in there. Um, but when we had Tobias on, I think it was like a full circle
moment because when we had Tobias on and we brought Doug on, >> they were talking about I think Tobias
brought up actually like the lantern flies and how Yeah, they're like really pretty.
>> Oh, they're pretty. Yeah, >> but they're big. >> Yeah. >> And I think Tobias had brought up the
lantern flies and how terrified he is and like needs therapy for bugs. >> I get it. And so and they were talking
about how they like invade and I think it was Doug's wife Steph who was like actually I think they're really pretty
like I don't care. And I was like I get it. >> They're bigger than a quarter. >> They're huge.
>> That's [ __ ] up. >> They're really pretty though. >> They are pretty. >> And I felt like it was such a full
circle moment that I was going to a show a ghost show in Baltimore and the first
thing I saw was that lantern fly that we had talked about on the episode. >> But then did it make you feel like you
were ready for fall? >> Yeah. like did it remind you that you were ready for fall a little bit? But um
>> but for everybody that we met at the show, John and I, like that was so awesome and and how [ __ ] cool was
that? >> It's always fun to meet you guys in the wild. >> It was especially at stuff like that cuz
then we're all excited about it together and it's really fun. >> That's cool. >> Uh the show was so good. I'm telling
you, >> that makes me want to go to a concert. >> It's so good. Uh but yeah, that was a
lot of fun. and lantern flies and bugs and let's get falling, >> please. >> I'm ready. I'm ready for it.
>> How many days until fall? >> I was like, what? >> 70. >> That's not that much.
>> 70 is a lot. >> That's not That's until official fall. Fact. We get fall well before official
fall. So, >> not the last couple years, though. >> We get it. The the the uh the weather
starts to change. >> Yeah, she'll change, >> you So, we'll get that little crispness.
>> I just need to carve a pumpkin. >> As soon as September 1st hits, it's fall. >> I mean, yeah. In my heart.
>> So, like that's all I'm looking forward to. >> Yeah. >> September 1st. >> Back to school. Back to school is like
>> September 1st hits. Spooky season. Fall >> apples. Like, let's go. I'm all right. That's
all I'm looking for is September 1st. >> I just need to get through this. I'm in
I'm in a a bad state. I constantly say, and don't worry, we'll get into the uh thing. I just
>> It'll be fine. >> Everybody will be cool. Um I have like reverse seasonal depression, and I'm not
even joking about that. Like I I know like it's not a joke. I'm not joking. I'm literally say I'm the most unhappy
in the summer. Like it just doesn't >> No, I looked at Drew yesterday for me cuz Drew has like seasonal effective
disorder like in the winter. And I looked at him and I was like, you know how Alena says that? I was like I always
like I was always like, "Do you really?" >> Yeah. I felt like that yesterday. >> Like yesterday I was like, "Okay, I'm
all like I feel I feel upset in my heart." >> I don't like it in the rest of the year.
>> Yeah. >> The only good thing about summer is that the kids are home. >> Yeah, that is good.
>> That's literally the only thing that keeps me from like fully diagnosing myself with
>> summer sadness. >> Yeah. >> Uh cuz then they're around and I'm like, "Oh, well, this is
>> they give you happiness." Yeah, that's true. They give me a lot of happiness.
So, that's like the only thing that keeps me like, "Yay!" >> Oh, but god, let's go fall.
>> Yeah, let's go fall. I'm ready. >> Still don't know what the [ __ ] to wear. >> No, that's the other thing. I don't like
summer clothes. >> Everything is sticky. >> Um, go buy the paperback version of The
Butcher Game. >> Put it in your pocket. >> Put it in your rainy day. >> Pre-order that [ __ ] You can do it.
>> You should do it. Uh, it's it's pretty great. I think I really like the book and paperbacks rock.
>> I like paperbacks personally a lot. Yeah. And it'll prepare you for who knows what, you know, things
>> for things and stuff. >> Uh so let's get into today's episode. We should. >> Um this is
one that is it was just like super interesting to me, especially um like the trial and imprisonment
in this case is very interesting. There's a lot of pieces that make it go like holy [ __ ]
>> All right. Um, and then this the the actual crimes are so like weird and random.
>> Yeah. >> And [ __ ] up that you're just like, "Okay." Uh, but we're gonna be talking
about Carol Chesman, the red light bandit. >> The red light bandit. I love a bandit
story. >> That's the thing. Whenever it's the something bandit, I'm in. That's great.
>> Like, let's let's learn about it. >> Yeah. So, in early 1948, Los Angeles couples were absolutely terrorized by a
series of robberies, and there was like car theft involved, all that stuff. And this was committed by a criminal who the
press of course dubbed the Red Light Bandit. >> The Red Light Bandit is back at it
again. More on the news at 5. >> That's a literal rip from a news station from 1948.
>> Yeah, >> I know. Crazy that we were able to do that. Uh, but the red light bandit was
so called that because they used a red light on top of their car to flag down victims, like act like a police officer
essentially. >> Oh, see, I thought they were traffic lights. >> Yes, >> me too. >> I thought at red lights they were
seizing the opportunity and I said, "Wow, that's >> No, >> that's confidence." >> I also thought that, too, cuz I was
like, "Whoa, you don't have a lot of time at a red light usually." >> Uh, but no, it was like a red light on
their car. >> Okay. Fortunately, the Bandits crime spree was quickly cut short when police
arrested Carol Chesman, a Los Angeles resident with a criminal history that went way back teen years. Yeah, Carol.
>> Oh. >> Um, and it's Carol K. Uh, C A R Y L. >> Oh, that's how you spell it. >> And you said to his teen years. Okay.
Yeah. >> Uh, Carol Whittier Chesman was born on May 27th, 1921 in St. Joseph, Michigan.
He was born to Surl and Halley Chesman. Within 6 months of his birth, the family
uh moved from Miss Michigan to Glendale, California, which must be like a pretty
big change. >> Yeah, I would think so. >> Um although his parents spelled his name
the traditional way actually uh C A R O L. >> He actually later changed the spelling.
Basically, he wanted to avoid like you know the common what he like what was considered like the female way of
spelling it at the time. Because remember this is >> the 40s. >> The 40s. Uh so I mean back then even
earlier. >> Yeah. Cuz he didn't want to be confused like >> Yeah. >> You know when somebody just sees their
name, >> right? >> That's his deal. >> Uh so Carol Chesman's biography that he wrote actually that he had a part in
>> biography. Um, it has been it's been reported from a variety of sources, but there are a lot of inconsistencies
between his reports of his childhood and the narratives reported from independent
sources. >> Okay. >> Um, he tends to uh romanticize a lot of his life. >> All right.
>> And I say that because there's like actual reports and evidence that will like dispute a lot of it. Um what is
apparent from both sources is that Chesman's early life was definitely marked by a lot of struggle and like
tragedy I would say. Um he was born just before the onset of the Great Depression.
>> Yeah. >> Which was 1929. Um his father Surl really struggled to maintain a stable
job and to care for the family. The financial struggle struggles definitely raised significantly in 1930 when Halley
Chesman was actually in a really bad car accident and became paralyzed from the waist down.
>> Oh my goodness. >> Really bad. >> Oh, that's awful. >> Um, obviously there was a ton of
hospital bills from this accident and she had ongoing care now. She was paralyzed from the waist down, right?
Um, so it became like a seriously crushing weight on the family like financially and especially Surl who
really wanted to be able to take care of this stuff and he really struggled to get out of this weight. Um, during
Carol's childhood actually his father tried a few time like a couple times I believe to unsuccessfully end his own
life. >> Oh, that's sad. And it definitely affected Carol. >> Yeah. How could it not? Um although his
mother's accident and the paralysis were the focus of a lot of his younger years,
Carol himself also struggled with a lot of physical ailments as a child. Um he had you know he had some health problems
like asthma and pneumonia which are serious but they you know are ones that are a little more common among children.
Uh others were more serious like he had encphilitis at one point which is swelling of the brain. Yeah. Um he had
dtheria, a severe bacterial infection of the nose and throat. And uh he had a lot
of times where he required a lot of hospitalizations. Um and of course this put another
financial strain on the family's whole entire financial deal. >> Yeah. >> Uh despite all of this, Carol reported
having a pretty decent childhood. Um in his memoir, he wrote, "Weeks and vacation time, the three had great fun
together, meaning his parents and him." >> Oh, that's nice. He said, "There were
trips to the ocean where with tiny pale and shovel I discovered wonders in the sand."
>> Oh, one thing about Carol is he has nice pros. When he writes, he can he can write. He's a writer.
>> Um, it's impossible to know how frequently this actually happened in his childhood or like whether they did have
great fun together, you know? But he repeatedly >> said this, but then he would also
undermine that narrative in psychiatric interviews after he was arrested. Okay, >> he really plays both sides of the fence
here. >> Yeah. Uh, according to Chesman, his childhood memories were actually largely
painful and frustrating. This is what he said later. Because his ailments frequently quote disrupted his childhood
and left him feeling weak and ashamed, as did taunts from his playmates. >> Now, his accounts of his relationship
with his father also kind of contradict one another depending on when they were told.
>> Okay. So in his published memoirs, his early memories of his father are pretty
positive, but he appears less nostalgic about his father than he was about his mother, which I feel like happens a lot,
especially for that time period. >> Yeah, definitely. >> Um, in truth, Sirill Chesman was pretty
generally a mildmannered man, you know, >> who, whether fair or not, struggled a
lot with his feelings of failure and a poor sense of selfworth that left him feeling very depressed a lot of the
time, very despondent. Um he also felt like he like internalized his son's ailments as like failure on his part
because his son was seen as like frail. >> That's sad. >> Um and that whole, you know, self sense
of failure kind of led him to harbor feelings of resentment for Carol as well. >> Uh on one occasion
where his father had wrongly apparently believed that he had intentionally hurt his own mother, uh Carol claimed that
his father repeatedly beat him with a bullhip. Oh, but >> it is difficult to know whether that is
a true thing that happened or whether it was added into the memoir on Carol's part for like effect.
>> Okay. >> Because again, you just can't take everything he says as true. >> Yeah.
>> And he contradicts a lot of his own statements. >> Yeah. >> But that I mean that sounds
unfortunately very of the time. >> It also just sounds like he had a complicated childhood.
>> That's what it feels like. No matter like what >> no matter what is true and what isn't.
>> Yeah. What definitely happened or not [ __ ] was complicated. >> Yeah. >> Uh it's important to note that like many
families especially at that time sir and hi Chesman were very religious people who imparted their strong religious
beliefs on their son as well. um this wasn't really in this case consequential in and of itself but um they were also
applied in the context of illness and disability. So it became a really powerful source of shame.
>> Okay. >> Uh for example like when he was initially diagnosed with severe asthma,
Halley Chesman's approach was be brave and pray to God to be cured. >> Oh yeah. Of course, he was not cured
just by praying and being brave. Um, so naturally, he felt that he was unworthy of God's love and attention because he
was not cured through that. >> That's >> which was a notion that he would come back to several times in the years that
followed. And honestly, it was kind of like it was just like reinforcing and like eventually kind of justifying his
feelings of shame and like feelings of being frail and like unworthy. >> Yeah. >> And obviously it's like he was a kid
when he was learning this stuff. So that stuff does become internalized. You know, it does,
>> I assume. Now, according to Carol Chesman, it was those feelings of guilt and shame that ultimately led him to
commit his first crime, which also is obviously a very convenient way to describe why he started a life of crime,
which is why you need to just be like, "Okay." >> Uh, when Carol was around 14 years old,
he returned home one afternoon, and this is >> horrible. If this is the if this is
really what happened, this is a horrible thing that happened. Okay. He returned home one afternoon to find his father
attempting to end his own life by putting his head in the oven. >> Oh [ __ ] >> Yeah. Obviously very distraught. Um and
thinking that the financial instability of the family had led to this and that he believed he was a partially a drain
on those financial >> Yeah. >> situation. He said he resolved to do whatever he could to help support the
family after this. In this case, that meant stealing food from the local grocery store to help feed the family.
>> Oh, which is devastating. >> Yeah, that's just sad that he felt that much pressure. In his biography, Cell
2455 death row, which Oh, >> yeah. >> Chesman describes taking up his old paper route as a guise for going from
one store to another where he stole small amounts of food from loading docks. >> Okay. Carol said he quote took no
pleasure in the success of his deception or in having become a sneak thief, but for the first time in his life, he was
actually helping his family and at a time when it was really needed the most, which you know, so it seemed like it
kind of made the behavior permissible. >> Yeah. But also it kind of gave him the
validation that he was looking for from his parents. >> O, that's very I you were 100% correct
in saying it was a very complicated situation. Definitely later in life, he'd suggest that his slide into
criminality had been the result of unforeseeable circumstances and uncontrollable psychological urges that
are well behind his beyond his control. The truth though is, I would say, much messier and more complicated than he
would ever write in his own memoirs. In reality, um, David Ruth wrote, and we, um, we have the source for this in our
notes. Um, adult betrayal and mistreatment by authorities fueled his already simmering rage. For all his
sentimentality and self-ingrandisement, Chesman echoed the experts explanation of many criminal careers. Basically, a
mix of biological, social, and environmental circumstances shaped him into a who he eventually became.
>> Yeah. And there were a lot of opportunities for him to change course, but he just simply chose to go down this
path. >> Okay? >> Like he really had a lot of opportunities to go down another path
and he didn't choose that. And that's sad. Years later, in an analysis of various psychiatric examinations and
interviews with those who knew Chesman as a child would collectively kind of indicate that he probably would have
qualified for one or more psychiatric diagnosis. Um after he was arrested when he was 18 years old, a psychiatrist
wrote that Carol's quote boastfulness is compensation for underlying feelings of
insecurity and inadequacy. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Um in fact, it seems as though his
attitude and poor interpersonal skills were responsible for a lot of the problems that started developing in
childhood. According to one classmate, Carol was quote very argumentative in class. He always talked way over
people's heads and he had a superior attitude towards the other students. In his own memoirs, Chesman suggested he
was an outcast at school because of his frailty and chronic health problems. >> Maybe it was a mix of both.
>> Independent sources, on the other hand, strongly indicate that the other students didn't like Carol because of
his profound arrogance and generally irritating personality. >> Yeah. >> Not because he was frail and dealt with
health issues. >> All right. Now, because he didn't really have strong social supports and good
friends, by the time he reached his teen years, he decided to just take up some bad ones cuz I don't have any, so why
not? >> Okay. Barely into his teen years, he and his friends spent their time, the
friends that he did find uh spent their time away from school engaging in what probably would have just been described
as like juvenile delinquency at the time. >> Okay, good. >> You know, smoking cigarettes, stealing
liquor from their parents all the time. They stole cars around Gren Glendale and
took them for joy rides and then just like abandoned them. >> Stealing a car is wild work.
>> Which was like kind of a thing. >> Yeah. >> Like that like teens would do. >> Grand Theft Auto
>> and just like joy ride them and then just like abandon them or bring them back.
>> That's crazy. >> Um Chesman wrote uh about the joy rides. Having the powerful car under his
control wrought a change in him. It opened up, with alcohol's help, a new world, a world a man could conquer and
do with it what he pleased. >> Oh. >> Which to me, that statement right there >> as he pleased
>> shows you where this is going. >> Yeah. Not anywhere good. >> No. Like the validation he felt by being
able to provide food for his family during the struggling times. The sense of control and power he was feeling
through his later criminal acts provided what I guess could be described as like
a high. like it was addictive to him. >> Yeah. >> And he couldn't and wasn't gonna deny
it. But in the summer of 1937, when he was only 16 years old, he was caught stealing a car. According to a reporter
for Time magazine, when he was taken to Juvenile Hall for booking, quote, "He scrambled through a window, jumped into
a truck, drove it up to the wall surrounding the place, climbed a top the truck, and escaped over the wall."
>> I like that when he got picked up for Grand Theft Auto, he just Grand Theft Auto again.
>> His way out of there. >> Like, what? He said, "You can't get me." He said, "I'm just going to do the same thing to
get out of here." >> Oh, man. Unfortunately for him, he was quickly rearrested a few hours later
when he was caught looting a drugstore in the middle of the night. What the [ __ ] Inexplicably, he had piled the
store's entire supply of cigars into the middle of the floor and soaked them in whiskey bottles, smashing the glass all
over the floor. Oh my god. Yeah. Now remember, he had only been picked up for it was he had stolen a car, but he was
it was basically a petty crime of joy riding. Yeah. That's especially back then, joy riding was like a thing.
>> Yeah. >> Um now it's a far more significant crime. >> I'm like, why did you make this a
million times worse? >> Well, and this is even worse because he was sentenced to 8 months at the Preston
School. >> Yeah. Of industry. Oh, I remember that school. Yep. the juvenile detentions
facility in Lone, California for offenders serving long sentences. >> If you haven't listened to that episode,
pause this episode. >> That's a wild one. >> Go listen to that and then pick back up
here. >> It's a wild episode gnarly. >> Yeah. >> He was released from Preston in April
1938 and was changed. >> Yeah. Well, apparently not, cuz he was um in other ways
>> for just a little over a month when he was arrested a second time for stealing
another car and was sent to the Los Angeles County Road Camp, which was a work camp alternative to prison.
>> O, it was during his second stay at Preston, that Carol met a group of boys who would prove pretty consequential on
his path to becoming a career criminal. >> Or uh let's talk about uh the Boy Bandit
Gang, shall we? The Boy Bandit Gang. >> Yes. Let's do that. Let's talk about it.
Let's do so. >> Throughout his youth, Carol had engaged in a, you know, a lot of criminal
behavior. Uh, most of it petty, rarely resulting in a massive consequence of like years or something. Um, in some
ways it, you know, he wasn't all that different from a lot of like dis disaffected youth of the era
essentially. There was a lot of that going on, right? Um, but while in some ways it was kind of like just youthful
indiscretions, the social and cultural reaction to juvenile delinquency had changed during the depression years and
those youthful indiscretions were now being taken much more seriously. >> People didn't have time for their [ __ ]
>> Yeah, they didn't have time for that [ __ ] >> So, we've been through a goddamn
depression. >> It's true. So the change in how the Americans, you know, and the American
system conceived of juvenile crime was kind of it was related a little bit to the larger movement for prison reform
that started like decades before this. Um because for the first time, children came to be seen as distinctly different
from adult criminals. Until that point, children who were convicted of crimes were generally thrown into adult prisons
and just dealt with that. Oh, >> like teens were just thrown in with like 50-year-old hardened criminals.
>> That's no bueno. >> By the late 1920s and early 1930s, reformists had succeeded in
establishing, you know, separate laws and punishments for juvenile offenders. That's where the Preston School of
Industry came about, where they were treated more like they were supposed to be treated more like children in in need
of help than criminals deserving of massive punishments. >> Yeah. While this may have done a world
of good for at risk youth, a gentler approach to punishment did very little to discourage unrepentant young
criminals like Carol Chessman from committing crimes as children and then just going on to do it as adult.
>> Also just wasn't much of a different approach. >> No, it really wasn't. So, so while
serving his second sentence, uh, Chesman met a group of other young offenders around his age. This included Robert
Pak, Andrew Rutled, and Gordon Cle. Like Carol, these young men had come from lower middleclass families and by the
time they met in the fall of 1939, >> they had already committed like a ton of petty crimes. Like just between them,
they had just a mountain of petty crimes. >> They were just doing crimes. >> Just crimeing. Upon their release in
early 1941, the four young men along with a fifth unnamed young man formed the Boy Bandit Gang.
>> I wonder how long it took them to come up with that. >> You know, they sat there.
Um, they were formed for the sole purpose of committing armed robbery. So, we've
>> Oh, we've up the antiated. >> Years later, in his memoir, Carol Chesman claimed that despite the full
participation of others, the idea for the gang was his and his alone. >> Okay, that was it. Uh, he wrote, "My
glib tongue talked them into the ways of banditry. I accept full responsibility since I dreamed it angrily into
existence." Banditry? Again, I say beautifully written. >> Yeah, >> I dreamed it angrily into existence.
>> That's [ __ ] >> That's good [ __ ] >> What a waste. >> I know. >> Like truly a waste.
>> You could dream better [ __ ] into existence. >> You could have dreamed a lot of
beautiful [ __ ] into existence if you weren't such an [ __ ] >> Why didn't you do that, man?
>> According to Chessman, the gang was never very successful when it came to their goals. He wrote, "Our efforts were
not crowned with conspicuous economic success." He said, "We didn't make a lot of
money." >> Almost from the beginning, we ran into more trouble than money. Even though
clicking perfectly as a team, >> like all aspects of his life, his descriptions of his boy bandit gang
escapades are a mix of like faux humility, a lot of boasting, and like the smallest
dash of honesty. >> Yeah. Like we actually weren't that good, >> so it's a little tough.
>> But we were perfect. >> Yeah, we were perfect though. We were [ __ ] welloiled. Great.
>> His descriptions of the gang's early activities make them sound like a band of practice criminals. You know,
spending days studying their targets, developing detailed schedules, learning their routines, like so high high tech.
>> Yeah. >> But at the same time, he freely admits the gang never made any money out of the
jobs and mainly got by on whatever whatever they got from like robbing gas stations and liquor stores every now and
then. So like which one is it? Yeah, that's those two things are vastly different.
>> Based on his very c like carefully curated descriptions of events, the reader of his memoirs will get the
understanding that the gang as a group was just a bumbling group of young guys. >> Yeah.
>> Who they were like teenage pranksters apparently that were like >> actually doing bad [ __ ] like you know
what I mean? Like but it was not good. Um, and when you read it, you get the idea that they were never really a
threat and were kind of like harmless, but in reality, they were not. They were not harmless. They were bumbling as
[ __ ] but they were not harmless. And the fact that they were bumbling as [ __ ]
with guns is really scary. And that's the thing, like when you read his memoir, like, be careful cuz you're
going to get the idea that like, oh, they were just like they were just silly boys
being silly. And it's like, nope, >> they did bad [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> So, on the afternoon of February 1st,
1941, Chesman Pak Rutled and two others were driving in LA when they were pulled
over by an LAPD patrol officer for a traffic violation. The officer comes up to the car and he sees a large amount of
new clothing and items in the car. A loot. >> And at the time, LA was experiencing a
wave. A wave. >> A wave. >> I don't know why I said it like that. was experiencing a wave of teen gang
robberies. It was like a the [ __ ] I know. Teen like just bandit gangs were a thing.
>> You're running a monk. >> Yeah. He was like, "Oh [ __ ] I've stumbled upon one of those youth gangs."
>> So he he asked So he walked up to the car and said, "Hello, youth. >> Hello youths. What are you up to?" So he
asked a bystander to call for the sheriff. He was like, "You know what? Call for the sheriff. I'm going to go
see what this is about." Yeah. >> So, the young woman went to the phone and Chessman and the other men got out
of the car, young men, I should say, got out of the car and attacked the officer,
knocking him to the ground and kicking and punching him. >> What the [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. They're not just like silly.
>> Yeah. When the offic No, they're not silly at all. When the officer's partner
saw what was happening, he rushed in, but he was dragged into the whole fight. And at one point, one of the attackers
managed to grab one of the officers guns and shoot one of the officers in the leg. shattering his femur. Oh [ __ ]
>> Yeah. So like [ __ ] >> Oh my god. >> This was for a traffic violation. >> Yeah. So the gunshot and resulting
injury were quickly followed by the sound of the sheriff's car approaching. So the group split up with two of them
running into a nearby orchard. >> An orchard. >> Which is very teenage bandit gang.
>> An orchard. >> Those two were living the teenage bandit gang life. >> They were. And then the other three were
unable to start their own car, so they hijacked a car at gunpoint and took it off towards downtown LA.
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. Where are these kids' parents? >> That's what I'm saying. What followed
was a long car chase in which Chesman, Pak, and Rutledge, who were in the car, were pursued for miles and were shooting
at sheriff's deputies until one of the pursuing officers managed to fire a shot into one of the tires and caused the car
to flip. >> Oh [ __ ] And the but all three of them ran out of the car. Got out of the car.
>> What the hell? >> In the end, the three were finally caught when Pak was shot in the side and
in the leg. >> And Rutled was shot in the hand, forcing them to stop. >> Ouch. >> Later that day, sheriff's deputies
received a tip about the identities of the other two men in the car and arrested Gordon Cle and William Taylor
in [ __ ] orchard. When they searched Cle's home, they discovered a pistol, which was later determined to be the gun
stolen from the patrol officer at the traffic stop. >> Why did you keep that at your home, you
[ __ ] like, glad you're that dumb. >> Yeah. The two the two young men who were hurt were taken to the hospital and the
others were booked. All were charged with highway robbery, >> which for some reason just
>> highway robbery. Get away with highway robbery. >> That statement is just the best.
>> Hearing someone actually booked on that is wild. So wild. Um, they were also booked with
assaulting two police officers and the shooting. >> Yeah. >> So, the highway robbery thing sounds
funny and then it's like, oh, also you shot people, >> right? Police officer. >> A few days later, a sixth member of the
boy bandit gang, 23-year-old Don Abbott was arrested after Abbott's car, which was known to have been used in the
robbery, was spotted in Los Angeles. Like the other arrests, his arrest came after a long car chase where sheriff's
officers traded multiple gunshots with Don Abbott and ultimately forced him off the road to stop the chase. On February
13th, several witnesses, including the LAPD patrol officers who initiated the stop, identified the boy bandit gang
members in court and testified to having been quote terrorized and in several instances beaten by the youths.
>> Yeah. All were beaten by you. >> I have been beaten by you. Holy >> [ __ ] >> It's just that that quote is just like
wild. All were held over for trial on armed robbery charges in superior court. And William Taylor was also charged with
attempted murder for shooting the police officer. >> Yeah. >> Far from harmless bumbling little boys
robbing liquor stores described by Carol Chessman in his memoir. The Boy Bandit gang perpetrated a series of robberies
that while not violent in themselves in the beginning, seemed to have escalated very quickly to violence. Yeah. So, they
started small and they just really ratcheted it up. >> And again, with like very little
provocation. >> Yeah. >> It's not like they had a moment where like they this was like they had no
other choice. >> No, they literally got stopped for a traffic violation. >> Like what are you doing? Now, Carol
Chesman and the other members of the Boy Bandit gang were found guilty and given
sentences of varying lengths for their participation in this assault, robbery, and shootout that led to the arrest.
>> Um, Carol received a 5-year sentence and was sent to San Quentin. >> After serving just two years, his good
behavior and diligent work in the prison library earned him a transfer to the California Institution for Men, which
was an open prison model in Chino, California. Huh. Like the Preston School of Industry, the California Institute
for Men was a product of the prison reform movement, which was aimed at rehabilitation rather than punishment.
>> Okay, which you can get behind. >> Yeah, cool idea. >> As the nation's first minimum security
prison, inmates had considerably more freedom, were provided with job training and other life skills in the less like
restrictive and punishing and more supportive environment. >> Okay, which for like smaller time
criminals Yeah, yeah, like why not? >> Just as he had done at the Preston school years earlier, he used the
relaxed attitude and minimum security environment to his advantage. And in late August 1943, he escaped from the
California Institution for Men. Uh he was on the run for two weeks and he was arrested at a motel in Glendale on
September 3rd. And he claimed, this is what he claimed, that he quote suffered an attack of
amnesia while serving as a plane an airplane watcher at the institution. And that his first recollection, therefore,
was when he found himself running through an orange grove near Upland. >> What? Yes. Qua, if you will. when that
explanation didn't work. >> Weirdly failed to convince the warden and the district's attorney. Weirdly
failed. It's so crazy. >> I don't know. So, they're tough. They're tough, >> I guess. So,
>> um you know, he had another story, though. He changed his story. >> Oh. >> And he claimed he had quote run away
only because he was hellbent on carrying out a plot to kill or kidnap Hitler. Ah,
weirdly that didn't work either. >> Oh no. >> I know. It's weird that that one didn't
work. Um, he was sent back to prison. >> That's probably good. >> Four more years.
>> That's That's probably Swell. Did they put him in a more maximum obscurity one?
>> I Yeah. Yep. Yep. He was It's weird that that one, you know, like be so for real
right now. >> I was like, "Wow, you really like you went hard with that one. I mean, you went from amnesia
>> to that. It's just you had no middle ground. >> While I respect your game, >> like, damn.
>> He really thought that was going to be like, oh, >> like Oh, >> that tells you that tells you so much
about him. >> It does. Cuz he really thought that was >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's what I was doing.
>> Why? But here you are putting me in prison again. men. >> Throughout his memoirs and interviews,
uh, Carol constantly tried to control the narrative of his own life, attempting to minimize the severity of
any of his crimes, downplay his own inherent criminality. Uh, but every time he was given the opportunity to change
his ways and just start fresh, he just wasted no time getting straight back to being a criminal. Every time.
>> Yeah. In December 1947, >> Carol was parrolled and returned to Glendale where he had less than two
weeks that passed before he started planning another robbery scheme. >> Brother man,
>> yeah, he just can't see. He doesn't He will not let up. >> Stop. Go get a job.
>> He reached back out to his old associates and he tried to find a new accomplice. He said, "Hey y'all."
>> Yeah. >> I'm out of the clink. >> I'm out of the clink for 48 hours. want to go kill Hitler.
>> Now, it's important to note that this is where independent accounts of the Red
Light Bandit part ways with his own biography, like his own memoir, since he always maintained his innocence and
claims he has nothing to do with the attacks that he was convicted for. >> Interesting.
>> Even though he was identified, >> okay, >> the Los Angeles County prosecutor at the
time suggests otherwise. According to the theory presented at his trial later, Carol and his new partner, David Nolles,
like crime partner David uh Nolles, started out small, robbing convenience stores. You know, they just got out of
prison. We got to start small. >> Start small. >> Everybody has to start somewhere.
>> Yeah. >> Robbing clothing stores for a handful of crumpled bills and change. Okay. Then
one day, as they were surveying the new dark gray Ford coupe they'd stolen, it occurred to Carol that it strongly
resembled an LAPD Prowler car driven by officers. Oh. >> And it gave him an idea. In fact, it
wasn't just that it resembled an LAPD Prowler in shape and color. It also had a bright spotlight on the top just like
one would find on a police car. Was it a police car? Not real sure. A few days later, in the late afternoon of January
18th, Thomas Bartle and his girlfriend were driving along the Pacific Coast Highway when a dark colored coupe came
up fast behind them and there was a red light flashing on the roof. >> That's so scary.
>> Assuming it was a police officer, why would you think otherwise? >> Bartle pulled the car off the side of
the road and was very surprised when the car behind them did the same because he
wasn't doing anything. So, he thought like they're just >> get out of the way, right? But he was
like, "Oh [ __ ] I'm being pulled over." So he was like, "Oh, I don't know what I
did." But he rolled down the driver's side window as the driver of the car came and demanded to see his license. In
the moment, something about the scene, he said, like just didn't feel right. >> Yeah.
>> So Bartle asked to see the officer's identification, which is [ __ ] brilliant. And especially for the time
when you are taught, especially in this time period, you just blindly respect authority. Like
>> absolutely. >> So for them to do that, I'm like, that's smart. That's when the driver though
produced a 45 caliber pistol and stuck it in Bartle's face and demanded that he hand over whatever cash he had on him.
So the couple between them only had $15. So he gave him all the money. The man jumped back into his car and drove away.
>> Wow. Which would be the weirdest interaction in the entire world. >> Also all that [ __ ] trauma for $15.
>> Yeah. Later that night, the bandit was out on the streets again looking for another easy score. That evening, Floyd
Bellow and his girlfriend Elaine Bushaw were parked on an isolated service road near the Roseb.
Just as before, a man in a dark gray coupe pulled up beside the car and the red light was like shining right through
there, like blinding them essentially. Um, but the bandit this time did not bother with the pretense of being a
police officer and instead just produced a gun immediately. >> Oh. And shouted, "This is a stickup.
Hand over your dough or I'll blow your brains out." >> Oh my god. >> Yeah. So, Bellow wasted no time doing as
he was told, handing over about $20. And the bandit left the scene again. Okay. The next day, the news of the
back-to-back robberies in the same evening made headlines around Southern California, of course. And this is when
the press dubbed the robbery the red light bandit. >> Okay. >> Um, so given that no one was hurt in the
robbery, the papers reported the incidents with like a lot of enthusiasm and sensationalistic flare, you know,
like just being like, "Haha, silly bandits." >> Uh, but little did they know the bandit
was just getting started. So the next night, Jarnan Leia and his girlfriend Regina Johnson were parked along an
isolated road in the Hollywood Hills. And that's when a dark gray coupe pulled up alongside them with the red light.
The bandit stepped out to the driver's side and Leia saw an averagel looking man holding a 45 caliber pistol and his
face was covered by a handkerchief. The bandit took the $45 from Leia's wallet that he said he had and another
$6 from Johnson. And he didn't flee the scene immediately, though. Like, he had done the stick up thing, you know, like
the whole thing. >> Instead, he pulled Regina Johnson out of the car and dragged her back to the
coupe, forcing her into the back seat, and he started trying to sexually assault her.
>> Oh, wow. >> So, he escalated within 24 hours. Oh, >> like the the night before he had done
this to two couples and he had just come up with the idea too >> when he had just come up with the idea.
>> It's almost like he was on like a power thrill. >> He saw that he got away with it and he
was like, "What else can I get away with?" >> Oh, that's awful. >> Fortunately, before Chessman was able to
get very far, because obviously, you know, this is Carol Chesman. Uh, yeah. Unfortunat, you know, fortunately before
he was be able to get like too far, the scene was suddenly lit up by the lights of an approaching car. So, Regina being
the brilliant boss she was, told her attacker that it might be the police and suggested he uncover his face so he
didn't look so suspicious. Oh, >> cuz she was like, "If oh, if the police see somebody with a handkerchief back
here, they're going to think you're attacking me. You should pull it down." >> Right. So he was like, "Yeah, totally."
And he lowered the handkerchief >> and she saw his whole face. >> She got a good look at his face.
>> Oh my god, that was such a [ __ ] brilliant but also such a bargain because you're now you've seen his face.
Exactly. >> That makes it even more dangerous. >> Hoping that it goes the way you want it
to. >> Yeah. >> Once the car had passed, Carol Chesman let her out of the car and left the
scene. >> Wow. and they went straight to the sheriff's office and reported the robbery and the assault and now had and
like enough to give them a lot of information. >> Now, the press covered this and weirdly
made no mention of the attempted rape of Regina Johnson in the coverage. >> What the [ __ ]
>> Just said like, "Oh, another red light bandit." That was a tasteful. >> Yeah. Now, after the attack on Leia and
Johnson, Chesman drove around for a few hours until just after midnight when he spotted another car pulled off the side
of the road. After pulling up behind them and flashing the light, he went up to the driver's side and flashed a beam,
like a flashlight beam into their eyes. When he reached the car, he found that there was only one man in it. So, he
robbed the driver of $1. >> A dollar. >> And then left. >> Yeah. >> A dollar. Mhm. He's thinking this is
another couple and he gets one guy with $1 on him. >> Yikes. >> So, he went quiet for like 2 days and
then he headed out on the streets again on the night of January 22nd. This time he went back out to the Hollywood Hills
where he had attacked Leia and Johnson a few nights earlier and quickly found another couple parked on a lover's lane
overlooking the city. After parking the coupe, he flashed the red spotlight into
the car and approached the driver's side and demanded that the driver, 20-year-old Frank Hurlbutt, hand over
his money. The couple assumed that they if they gave him the money, he would just leave.
>> Yeah. Cuz they had also heard this covered in the press, and they didn't mention that he had tried to rape one of
the women. So, this woman has no reason to believe this man is going to do something to her, which was a really
[ __ ] massive disservice to her >> in that moment. >> Absolutely. It was. It pisses me off
that they didn't cover that. >> But instead of letting them leave after getting the money, he pulled 17-year-old
Mary Louise Mesa out of the car and began dragging her back to his own vehicle. >> Oh god. Once Mary was out of the car,
Frank put his own car into gear and fled the scene, which he later claimed he was
going to get the police. >> But that must have been a really horrifying sight for his girlfriend to
see. >> I I'm going to keep my comment to myself. >> When Yeah. When, and this is even
weirder, when Carol Chesman saw Frank leave the scene, he jumped in the front seat with Mary still in the back seat
and started chasing Frank through the Hollywood Hills. What? When he finally managed to catch up, Carol tried to
force the other car off the road, but only managed to get his own car stuck and allowed Frank to escape. Okay. Once
he was out of sight, Carol Chesman drove to a secluded area and raped Mary. >> Oh god.
>> Threatening to kill her boyfriend if she didn't comply. >> Oh. >> When he'd finished, he let her go and
drove away. >> Just dropped her in a secluded area of the road. Oh my. And drove away.
>> That poor girl. >> The next day, >> 17 years old. >> Oh yeah. The next day, the papers all
reported enthusiastically on the exploits of the red light bandit. But once again, quiet. Why aren't they
saying that he's raping women? That's huge news. >> Instead, the way they reported it was
that Chesman had quote let Mary out of his car unharmed within a block of her home.
>> Unharmed. >> Instead of drove her to a secluded area, raped her, and then left her.
>> What the [ __ ] >> Why? Like that's what good reason do you have to not report what's actually
[ __ ] happening aside from like oh it'll really get people all in >> I think they see this as like oh this
this crazy red light bandit like that's not fun if he's raping people like it's only funny if he's just taking a dollar
from people and leaving but it's like okay now women are in >> now you've made everybody unsafe
>> right >> so the next afternoon Chessman and Nolles entered a clothing store in
Roondo and armed with a 45 caliber pistol and a toy pistol held up the clerk Uh, his name was Melvin Weisler and they
held up a second employee, Joe Leer. When Joe hesitated in giving over his wallet, Chesman beat him in the head and
face with the butt of the 45 and threatened to kill him. Oh god. After getting the cash from the registers and
the two men's wallets, Carol Chesman and Nolles gathered up around $500 worth of
men's clothes from the racks and then fled, leaving in the dark gray coupe. Once they were gone, they obviously
reported this whole thing to the police and described the two men in their vehicle for the dispatcher. Around the
same time, two LA uh traffic officers who happened to be driving behind the coupe heard the broadcast about the
robbery and realized the description matched the car driving in front of them, which must have been a wild thing.
>> Yeah. It's like, okay, he's right here. >> We're like, oh, we're in perfect position. Of course, as soon as they hit
the lights and instructed the driver, pull over, Chessman proceeded to pedal to the metal and started fleeing, of
course, >> weaving in and out of side streets at 80 mph. >> Oh, that's so scary.
>> Once again, he found it. This is just like a funny little like full circle moment because it's like now Carol
Chesman has found himself just repeating that same car chase with, you know, his
earlier criminal career and his later one. >> Yep. Um, so this resulted in a nearly
hour-long high-speed chase through the streets of Los Angeles. Holy. >> With Chesman and Nolles trading gunfire
with what became an eight car team of pursuers. >> Oh my god. >> Had Chesman not run into like LA traffic
essentially, like downtown traffic. >> Be thankful for that. >> Yeah. They would have probably got away.
>> Yeah. >> But he attempted to make a U-turn to avoid the traffic and was rammed by one
of the pursuing officers. bringing the car to a stop. >> Damn. >> To David Nolles, the stalled car was
reason enough to throw up his hands and surrender. >> Yeah. >> But Chesman wasn't giving up. So, he
jumped out of the car, fled into the alleys behind uh between the nearby houses. And it was only after the
officers fired two warning shots above his head that he gave up. That's definitely the time, if any. Now, in his
memoir, he says that one of the shots grazed the top of his head. But there's photographs taken of directly after his
arrest and there is no injury on his head that he's a lying sack of [ __ ] >> When the officers searched the car,
which they determined was stolen several weeks earlier, they found a detachable roof mounted spotlight. The screws were
found in Chesman's shirt pocket. Other evidence taken from the vehicle was a 45 caliber pistol, a toy pistol, a pen
light, hundreds of dollars of clothing, all with the price tag still attached. Unreal. Based on the evidence and the
identifications provided by W uh Weisler and Lecher, both men that were robbed at
the store. >> Yeah. >> They were booked on a variety of charges including armed robbery and both were
considered prime suspects in the red light bandit robberies as well. >> So the day after this, Mary Louise Mesa
came to the station with her mother. Remember she's 17. >> Yeah. where she identified Carol Chesman
as the man who'd robbed and sexually kidnapped and sexually sexually assaulted her.
>> Right. >> But told officers she'd never seen Nolles before. >> Okay. >> So, he was not part of that.
>> More identifications were made in the following days, including one from Regina Johnson, who also identified only
Carol Chesman as her attacker. >> Yep. Now, upon interrogation, Carol admitted he'd stolen the clothing into
being the red light bandit, but he denied the rape allegations and sexual assault allegations.
>> Of course. >> Later, he would claim, among other things, that the confession had been
beaten out of him over the course of three days by several LAPD officers. >> Doubt it. He said, "I was brutally
beaten, denied sleep, threatened with further violence, not allowed to see any at an attorney or my father, grilled to
exhaustion, and promised only two or three counts of robbery charges would be filed if I confess to the red light
crimes." Now, I don't think it's like um like a hidden fact that um the LAPD has
a long and unfortunate history of, you know, employing tactics that >> are brutal. This is true.
>> Especially when it comes to extracting a confession. >> Mhm. >> Can't can't get away from that.
>> Nope. >> In this case though, the evidence doesn't really support his claims. Um,
you know, just like the shot of like the warning shot above his head that he said
grazed his head. There's photographs that prove that's wrong. >> Well, they also had so much evidence
that it doesn't seem like they would really even need a confession to to bring this anywhere. Well, and there was
a lot of photos taken of him after his arrest and during this interrogation and after. If he had been beaten and abused
as severely as he claimed to be there would be some marks and there was no marks on him.
>> And this is way back in the 40s. Like they didn't retouch the photos, you know.
>> Exactly. And they weren't really shying away from leaving marks on criminals back then especially. So the fact that
he didn't have marks on him was pretty wild. Um, obviously, you know, I wasn't there, so I don't know, but the evidence
points in the direction that he's a lying sack of [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> He's also a rapist, so I don't really
care what he says. >> That's the thing. So, it's like, regardless of it of the denials, in late
January, Carol was indicted on 18 counts, including robbery, kidnapping, and rape. On March 12th, both Chessman
and Nolles appeared before a judge in superior court and pleaded not guilty, and a trial date was set for April. By
his own admission, Carol had had a long a very difficult time finding a lawyer who was willing to take his case. I
mean, I could understand why. >> Yeah. I mean, they had a lot of evidence tying him to the red light cases,
including the light itself and several victims. >> Not itself, like the red light.
>> They said, "Babe, we actually have the red light." >> Yeah, we have that. >> Most lawyers he spoke with told him they
could try to get him a decent deal and keep him from getting a life sentence, but none believed they had a chance at a
quiddle. Unfortunately, as far as Chessman was concerned, a total acquitt was the only
acceptable outcome. So, >> with the trial date coming up, he made the universally un unwise decision to
represent himself at trial. >> No. >> Yeah, >> that really is universally unwise.
>> Uh he later said, "A courtroom and I were not strangers. I was familiar generally with the rules and evidence
and although acquired informally, I possessed a working knowledge of criminal trial procedure. So he may have
thought he was familiar with how a criminal trial worked, but when the trial began at the end of April 1948,
he showed himself to be less than prepared to be a lawyer. >> I always think about like the confidence
that it takes to say, "I'm going to represent myself in course in court." And it's like when you really sit down
and watch a trial and all the formalities and all the proceedings that take place, it's like,
>> yeah, >> you're not equipped to do that if you don't have a background in law.
>> You don't. >> You're just not equipped. >> There's a reason that the LSATs >> exist
>> are [ __ ] hard as [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> There's a reason like that people like are are losing their minds studying for
that. And it's like >> it's so insulting too to like actual lawyers who have gone through the
process >> and it's like somebody it's like I know I am not adequ adequately equipped to
fully educate my children in a way that a teacher who went to school for this can do.
>> I would love to to be able to do that. I know I'm not though. >> But just like
>> it's the same energy. It's the same energy. And just like with that, there are so many people that think they are
>> Oh, equipped to do that and could do better. >> And there's people who make the effort
to actually become able to do these kind of things. You know, like that is absolutely a thing.
>> But there's people who just think they're better. >> Me, like Carol Chesman saying, "I'm
going to represent myself because I've been in a court of law before." >> Yeah. That's crazy. It's me saying I can
teach my kids to school >> all the [ __ ] because I've been in a school before. >> It's not the same thing. Like I have not
been a teacher before. >> It's not. >> It's crazy. >> Like people take >> years sometimes to get cases ready.
>> It's not easy. >> No. >> So it's a real It's a real [ __ ] gamble, dude. And it's a bad one.
>> Yeah. >> But sometimes it just becomes such a >> a [ __ ] farce. That's the thing. And
it becomes a circus and it draws away from like the [ __ ] that actually happened and it can make and then the
victim's families have to sit there and watch this [ __ ] idiot try to bumble his ass through a whole trial and when
they just want to get to the end like you see it so many times and it's like >> these people they should just be told
shut the [ __ ] up. >> They should you take what you can get. So, in addition to constantly refusing
the assistance and guidance of the public defender assigned to assist him, he submitted a witness list that
included a surprising number of people. >> Oh, good. >> Including the LA County District
Attorney and several judges, many of whom had nothing to do with the case. >> So, why were you going to call them?
Also, while the prosecutor walked the jury through the mountain of evidence implicating Chesman and Nolles in the
crimes, Carol just focused largely on character witnesses and about a week into the trial, his mother, Hie, was
brought into the courtroom on a stretcher to testify on his behalf and testified about her son's quote genius
intellect and strong character. >> It doesn't count if your mom says it all. And it's like,
>> and also you really made her go through that. >> And also, Exactly. And it's like, dude,
no one's arguing that you're dumb. >> Yeah. That's the argument here. This is about if you raped a couple of girls,
>> stole a bunch of things, and >> have assaulted, shot people, robbed people, >> like all this [ __ ] to kill people.
Like, >> this is about a whole lot more than your level of intellect. >> I don't care if you're smart.
>> No, >> I'm sure you are. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Clearly not smart enough to not make those choices.
>> To not be doing that [ __ ] It's like, I don't give a [ __ ] if you're a genius.
That doesn't make it okay. >> Yeah. >> So, after a 3 weeks uh trial, it came to a conclusion with an unexpected closing
statement from the prosecutor, Deputy District Attorney Jay Miller Levy, in which uh Miller urged the jury to not
only find Chesman guilty, but to also sentence him to death for his crimes. >> Okay. under normal circumstances, even
the most violent of his crimes didn't qualify for the death sentence. Um, but Miller argued, and this is where it gets
interesting, that due to several aspects of the crimes, the little Lindberg law was more than appropriate.
Now, we have not covered this, and we will. We're going to cover the kidnapping of the Lindberg baby. Yeah.
>> It just stresses me out. >> Yeah. >> But we are going to cover it. It's an important case to cover. It's
fascinating. Um, following the kidnapping and murder of the Lindvert baby in 1932, US Congress passed the
Federal Kidnapping Act, new legislation that made kidnapping a federal offense and could be eligible for the death
penalty. >> Okay. >> Miller argued that because Chesman had detained Regina Johnson and Mary Louise
Mesa during the robbery for quote immoral purposes >> Uhhuh. >> and had transported Mary
>> Yep. >> to a secluded area. Yep. >> He had violated the federal kidnapping act and thus should be held to the same
standard as anyone else who kidnaps someone in order to enact violence against them.
>> That's a valid argument, >> which is a valid argument when you look at it logistically. Yeah. Like it is a
valid argument. >> Now, to many observers, the request for the death penalty seemed like a reach.
But after 32 hours of deliberation, the jury emerged and found Chesman guilty on
nearly all counts and sentenced him to die in the gas chamber at San Quentin prison. When the sentence was read in
court, Chesman jokingly replied, "I still owe 260 years for violating my parole, your honor." Oh, so this was all
just a big joke. Damn. I'm like, "Dude, you just got sentenced to die." >> I wonder if they would have reached that
same decision had he not represented himself. that too. >> I think it is very very possible that he
pissed people off during that whole thing. I think he antagonized. Yeah. And I think it was a bad move on his part.
>> Now, after the verdict, Carol Chesman was removed to San Quentin's death row where he immediately started the appeal
process. David Nolles, meanwhile, was also found guilty of all but the rape charges and was spared the death penalty
cuz he because it doesn't involve in that. Two years later in 1950, Null's convict convictions were reversed upon
appeal due to the lack of evidence tying him to the crimes that he was tried for.
>> The lack of evidence pretty wild. I thought there was a mountain of evidence. Definitely against Chessman. I
think Nolles was less. There was some room for >> Well, and I guess he was just along for
the ride and then who knows who was holding the rear real gun and all that and how they were able to argue that in
the appeals. Now, by the time he had been sentenced to death, Carol Chesman had already made something of a name for
himself in amateur writing. Uh, he had published a few essays about his life in small magazines. The strange and what
some saw as inappropriate application of the death penalty in his case also served to build upon this public persona
for him because he seized the opportunity and started writing his first memoir, Cell 2345, Death Row.
Beginning in the 1950s, the nation was starting to rethink its approach to criminal justice and called into
question among other things the like, you know, the the moral, ethical, you know, implications.
>> There it is. I was trying to I was like, what is the word I'm looking for of the
death penalty? Um, >> in that sense, Carol's case >> came at a pretty politically useful time
for him and his supporters and opponents of the death penalty in general. it really all kind of like went together.
Uh given the circumstances of the crimes and the ways in which those crimes had been punished historically, the
application of the death penalty in this case a lot of people thought was cruel and unusual punishment, which I can see
that side, you know, I get it. Um, in his writing, Carol took advantage of the moment, framing his life story as one
that he had been let down by the authorities in his life and by a system that was supposedly put in place to help
him reform his criminal ways. But again, remember his first rodeo, he was given many times to reform his criminal ways.
He was sent to places to reform >> before that. and he >> [ __ ] in their face escaped and then two
weeks out of there was already starting his new thing. >> So that's not valid. >> So regardless of how you feel about the
death penalty, it's like him saying like that is just [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Now quoting a recently published article
in Time magazine, Carol Chesman wrote, "Too many institutions quote had become infused with the rot producing idea that
the salvation of the individual and so of society depends upon conformity and adjustment. He on the other hand said
thought that he was the real embodiment of the American spirit. A man who longed
to be free and had simply been abandoned in the rush towards progress. >> I think it's a little more nuanced than
that. >> You raped people. >> Yeah. >> Um you know his arguments, however well written they were, which they were, were
nothing more than an extension of the manipulations he'd been practicing against authority ever since he started.
honestly his >> exhibiting antisocial traits when he was young. >> Yeah. >> Um but nevertheless to many American
readers those arguments made sense and within a short time after his conviction his death sentence became a popular
cause among a lot of American elites who opposed the death penalty. >> Really? >> Yeah. In the years after this, uh,
Chesman gained a massive audience and a diverse group of supporters who included
famous authors like Norman Mor, Ray Bradberry, and icons like former first lady Eleanor Roosevelt and Marlin
Brando. Hello. Yeah, his memoir was covered. He's a rapist. >> That's the thing. It's like I get why
you're saying like the death penalty might not is not like appropriate in this situation, but like to support like
I don't know about that. Like do you think they support him or did they just support him getting off of death row?
>> I would assume they must just support him getting off of death row. >> Yes, I I can understand that. I don't
know that I would go out of my way to support that. >> I don't I don't know. I think I would
need to know a lot more. Yeah, >> cuz I get the like that the death penalty seems inappropriate in this
situation. Like that I can get behind, >> but I just I'm like I don't know. It's a
hard tough and I think we've talked about this so many times. I have a very tough time with the death penalty
because sometimes I find it applicable. >> Yeah. It's one of those it's hard to >> but at the same time it's very difficult
because we've seen cases where people are wrongfully convicted. That's the thing. And that's where it gets hairy.
>> That's why I like air on the side of I don't like the death penalty. >> Yeah, I live somewhere in the gray.
>> I can teeter over into the gray. I'm never fully for it. I'm I live in a gray
if I live anyway. >> Yeah, I'm definitely not fully for it. That's exactly how I feel.
>> That's the thing. Like nothing fix it. And I Nothing fix it. >> Nothing fix it.
>> Nothing fixes it or like takes away what happened. That's why it's like I just
rely on like the victim's families >> and what they want >> to tell me what they think. You know
what I mean? Because I'm like I I can't imagine >> Yeah. >> being that that 17-year-old's mother cuz
I think I would want that guy to die. >> I think I would too. >> But it's like but is that is you know
what I mean? Like that's emotion and that's >> Yeah. >> That doesn't really like
>> and then you have that applied on your heart. >> Well, that's the thing. It's so
difficult >> and applying emotion into the justice system is a >> slippery slope.
>> Yeah. It just doesn't work. >> Yeah. >> So, it's like I that's why I don't >> I can see it when a victim's family is
like I want this guy dead. >> I can I get it. I can I get it. And then it's like but then I when I look at it
as a third party outsider, I'm like I just don't think it fixes a lot. Yeah. And I think it creates more issues and I
think it creates more like trauma for everybody involved. And I don't know. >> Yeah. It's hard it's hard to sit down
and really make a decision about how you feel about it. >> And this is just us talking about it.
We're not like taking stances or trying to tell you what you should think. >> No. If anything, neither of us can. Like
that's the thing. Like we're just talking through it. Like this is just us like kind of sh like just talking
through this as it comes through our mind. >> Yeah. And we've done this before. like
this doesn't need to be taken very seriously as like you should think this >> cuz I think
>> cuz you're free to think what you want. >> I think everybody's opinion of it is
valid because it's such a >> nuanced and complicated >> topic >> topic that I think everybody's opinion
on it is very valid and >> you know >> Yeah. >> and so varied. >> Yeah. >> Well, anyway, we digress.
>> This Yeah, this is just one of those crazy things. But uh his memoir which he
published in 1954, it was published to great critical and commercial success and was adapted into
a successful film the following year. Yeah. Um despite all those personal successes, Carol Chesman's appeals to
the higher courts all failed on their merits. The basis for the appeals varied and ranged from claims of force u
forcible extraction of a confession to prejuditial errors on the part of the prosecutor and the courts to a violation
of his equal protection of rights. Uh among his most frequent complaints was that several witnesses perjured
themselves on the stands and uh the court record was later amended to cover up those lies. That's what he was
claiming. >> Okay. With regard to that, the justices of the California Supreme Court wrote,
"At no time since the original reporter's transcript of the trial was prepared has defendant made it appear
that the transcript does not adequately and substantially reflect the nature of the people's case and of his defense."
>> Okay. >> So, they're basically being like, "You're just saying that now. You've
never once brought this up before." >> Yeah. >> Um, like all his other unsupported
claims, this was flatly rejected. In the decade after this, he continued writing,
publishing, and pleading his case to anyone who would listen. He was often persuasive and won over a lot of
important people, but none of it was enough to produce the desired outcome. And by 1960, he'd exhausted all his
opportunities to appeal. On the morning of May 2nd, 1960, after 12 years of fighting, Carol Chesman was executed in
the gas chamber at San Quentin prison and was pronounced dead a little past 10:00 a.m. Um, one reporter wrote, "Just
as the fatal fumes rose, the 38-year-old chessman seemed to chuckle." Oh, yeah. Which is like chilling. That is
chilling. In a pretty cruel twist of fate, to end this story, just after he was pronounced dead, the warden at San
Quentin received word that the state supreme court had decided to impose a stay of execution for Chessman while
they considered a habius corpus argument. It gets worse. That morning, a secretary
for the justices rushed to get in contact with someone in a position of authority at the prison, but she
accidentally dialed the wrong number and was unable to reach anyone. By the time
she realized the mistake, Chessman had been executed. >> Oh, >> and this is why I can't get behind it.
They were about to give him a stay. >> Oh wow. >> To at least look into another argument
like oh [ __ ] That's Yeah. Wow. And then after he was executed, he was cremated and his he had requested
that his ashes be put sent to Forest Lawn Cemetery to be interred with his parents.
>> Yeah. But the management at the cemetery refused to inter him because of the crimes he had committed. So they were
instead interned at Mount Tamalpus Cemetery. I'm sorry if I said that wrong. Until 1974 and then they were
disinterred and scattered off the coast of California. Uhhuh. So an interesting end.
>> A very interesting end. I did not see that coming. >> Dialing the wrong number is
>> clerical errors. You are diabolical. >> Diabolical. truly diabolical. >> Like that poor girl.
>> Yeah. >> Probably thought about that every day for the rest of her life. >> That's rough.
>> Which also sucks cuz he's a rapist at the end of the day. >> Yeah. >> But like that's a huge mistake.
>> Yeah. >> That's why it's so like I just bounce back and forth between a gray and an
against. >> Yeah. It's tough. >> I can't We could talk about it all day. We could talk about it all day.
>> I Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Wow. That's That's a lot to to process. It really is.
>> In the grand scheme of things, I really just feel so horrible for the two women
that he assaulted and the men that got help and dealt with the trauma >> and had to deal with their, you know,
their girlfriends at the time being kidnapped and assaulted. >> Those who did deal with it.
>> Those who did deal with it. Exactly. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Damn. That that's a wild tale. I really
thought it was going to be a little more like bobhaired bandites, you would think, but it got dark pretty quick.
>> I mean, that case did get dark, too, but this one is dark on a on a different
level. That ending to that story is >> Yeah, the ending threw me for a loop. >> Same. I feel in a tizzy a bit right now.
>> Yeah. Threw me for a loop. >> Wow. Well, thank you for that story. >> Yeah. Thanks to Dave for coming up with
that one cuz that was a Dave A Dave original. >> A king, if you will. a king. If you
will, if we will. And he will. And we will. We all will. >> We all will. >> And hopefully something that you all do
is uh we hope you keep listening. >> Yeah. And we hope you >> keep it weird, but not so weird that you
dial the wrong number. Ooh. Yikes. >> Also, not so weird that you rape people, cuz that's bigger. That's a bigger deal.
[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

In early 1948, Los Angeles couples were terrorized by a series of robberies and car thefts committed by a criminal the press dubbed “The Red Light Bandit,” a reference to the red light he used to flag down his victims. Fortunately, the bandit’s crime spree was quickly cut short when police arrested Caryl Chessman, a Los Angeles resident with a criminal history going back to his teen years.

Chessman was charged with multiple counts of robbery, rape, grand theft, and because of an unusual interpretation of events, he was also charged with kidnapping. Due to the attachment of kidnapping, several of the charges were defined as a capital offense and Chessman was convicted and sentenced to death.

In the years following his conviction, Chessman’s death sentence became a source of considerable controversy—an already controversial sentence applied in a non-lethal case due to a bizarre application of the law. For ten years, Chessman fought the sentence all the way to the US Supreme Court, with support from a wide variety of sources, both notable and ordinary.

Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!

References Chessman, Caryl, and Joseph Longstreth. 1954. Cell 2455, Death Row: A Condemned Man's Own Story. New York, NY: Prentice Hall.

Erikson, Leif. 1960. "Chessman executed with a smile on his lips." Los Angeles Evening Citizen News, May 2: 1.

Los Angeles Evening Citizen News. 1948. "Mother on stretcher testifies for 'genius'." Los Angeles Evening Citizen News, May 10: 1.

—. 1948. "Wild chase nets 'Red Light Bandit' suspects." Los Angeles Evening Citizen News, January 24: 3.

Los Angeles Times. 1941. "Crime victims point to youths." Los Angeles Times, February 14: 2.

—. 1943. "Honor farm escapee says he only lost his memory." Los Angeles Times, September 5: 14.

—. 1948. "Red-Light Bandit receives two death sentences." Los Angeles Times, June 26: 17.

Pasadena Independent. 1948. "Red Light Bandit strikes again." Pasadena Independent, January 20: 8.

People v. Caryl Chessman. 1959. CR. 5006 (Supreme Court of California , July 7).

Press-Telegram. 1941. "Five bandit suspects held in shootings." Press-Telegram (Long Beach, CA), February 2: 1.

Ruth, David E. 2014. "'Our free society is worthy of better': Caryl Chessman, Capital Punishment, and Cold War culture." Law, Crime and History 31-55.

Time Magazine. 1960. "The Chessman affair." Time Magazine, March 21.

Times, Los Angeles. 1948. "Bandit using red spotlight kidnaps girl." Los Angeles Times, January 23: 19.

—. 1948. "Deasth asked in Bandit case." Los Angeles Times, May 19: 32.

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Brief Summary

The episode details Carol Chesman's rise as the Red Light Bandit, his violent crimes, and the controversial death penalty case that followed.

Key points

Elena and Ash's Summer Struggles. The hosts share their frustrations with the summer heat and longing for fall.
Carol Chesman: The Red Light Bandit. Exploring the life of Carol Chesman, a criminal with a troubled past.
The Boy Bandit Gang Forms. Chesman and his friends form a gang for armed robbery, claiming full responsibility.
Escalation of Violence. What began as petty crime quickly escalated to violence during a traffic stop.
Chesman's Escape and Arrest. After escaping from a minimum security prison, Chesman claims amnesia during his capture.
The Red Light Bandit Escalates. The bandit quickly escalates from robbery to attempted sexual assault in just 24 hours.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

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6:33WatchJul 28, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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