Episode 715: Forensics, Fiction, and the Fine Line Between Them: A Sit Down with Patricia Cornwell | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. >> And I'm Elena. >> And this is a very special episode of
Mobed. [Music] We got so excited during this interview that we forgot to ask our guests to do
the and I am cuz it was Patricia Cornwell. >> What the [ __ ] I am the So this interview was wild. So cool.
>> I was floating above us all during this. >> I wish that you guys I we do have sub
video for so I think we'll be able to post some stuff. Elena was literally like >> I was beaming
>> floating. >> Yeah, I was beaming. >> Elena has always been a huge fan of Patricia Cornwell. So just it was really
cool. I just wanted to like sit back and watch it for the most part. I was like there I had a couple questions in there
that I ended up deleting on our shared doc and just like highlighted and was like go to this one
>> like just keep going. >> I'm like you got this >> like go. It's true. I I have been a I've
been a fan of Patricia Cornwell. I mean in case you don't know Patricia Cornwell
like you got to get on it cuz she's [ __ ] amazing. >> Yeah. Honey, what are you doing?
>> Um she's sold over 120 million books which is >> damn >> insane. She's an author of nearly 50
books like and a lot of people know her for the Scarpetta series. There's like almost 30 books in that one.
>> Wow. >> Um it's an amazing series. It's um follows a medical examiner, K Scarpetta,
who's just she was my hero growing up. Like that I wanted to be K Scarpetta. >> You kind of are.
>> I honestly that was the dream. I [ __ ] love her. It's she does like thriller,
but it's like really um like sciencebased and it's it's got like a little some of her books have some
horror elements in there. Like she's really good at balancing it all. Um she even in one of them she goes to the
actual body farm in the book like and she went to the body farm. >> It's so funny. I called the body farm by
the way. >> I remember you telling me about that. >> Yeah. And I was like because I was
fascinated by the body farm. So when that came out I was like let's go girls. >> Yeah.
>> Um but she's amazing. I have been reading her books since I was like 13 or 14. I mean, I started I think her first
book maybe came out in like 1990. >> Wow. >> I think which I was I didn't read it at
that point cuz I was five. But >> yeah, >> I was reading it, you know, 10 years later for sure. Like eight years later.
>> And I've read every single one of them I think and up to like the last I think
I've missed the last three. I have to catch up on them. >> Yeah. But John buys me anytime a new
book comes out by Patricia Cornwell, he knows he's going to run out and grab it and get it for me. I have I have a whole
I mean I have an almost an entire bookshelf dedicated purely to Patricia Cornwall.
>> I can attest to that. >> She's my girl. >> I remember when I was doing I did a
paper on Jack the Ripper in like >> freshman year and you gave me Portrait of a Killer to borrow and I That's a
great book. >> Yes. It's so good because when she gets into something, she [ __ ] gets into
it. >> Super super informative. >> And I always loved that about her, too. I always felt like she like super
kindred that way because she seems like someone who just like once they're and she is. She like confirmed that for us
in the interview. She is that person that just when she gets hyperfocused on something, she's just going to go
>> learns everything about it >> down the hole. And she was so much fun. You guys are for sure Kindred. There was
a connection there. >> I love >> I said I said I love watching this. >> I love it.
>> It was great. >> We became best friends during this interview. We're besties for life. Me
and Patricia. >> Yeah. In about 5 seconds, you'll hear us both get uh invited to our home.
>> Hell yeah. And I intend to do it. Patricia, get ready. >> See you there, brother.
>> This interview was awesome. We hope you guys love it. It was really interesting.
She's a fascinating lady and just another [ __ ] amazing author that I got to talk to because of you guys. So,
>> oh yeah. So, without further ado, >> enjoy. Patricia Cornwell. Uh, so Patricia, thank you so much for
coming on Morbid. This is massive for me. I'm freaking out inside. So, Patricia, you worked for the office of
the chief medical examiner for six years in Richmond. Um, >> in your early career in the medical
examiner's office, what shaped the creation of KC Scarpetta during those years? >> Well, let me tell you a little morbid
secret that see people think that I happened to be working in the medical examiner's office or shall we just say
the morg. Um, and that out of that I got ideas for writing books. That's not at all what happened. I when I graduated
from college back in the stone age um and I was a an English major and I I knew the only thing I seemed to do
halfway decently was writing. So, I managed to get a menial job at the the newspaper, um, the Charlotte Observer,
and um, I I worked my way up to being a reporter, and they put me on the police beat. And so that was my first
introduction to crime, you know, going to homicide scenes and doing this sort of stuff. And and then at that time, I
was I was married to my former English professor and he wanted to move to Richmond, Virginia to go to seminary.
And so we I had to leave my journalism job. I won't go into all the boring details, but suffice it to say that at
one point I thought to myself, what am I going to do with my life? And I knew I was interested in crime and I wanted to
write books. So I thought I'd put the two together. But the one thing I didn't know about is what happens to the body
when they whisk it away from the crime scene. I knew it went to a morg somewhere. I knew there were forensic
pathologists who looked at the body, but back in the this was back in the 1980s,
um, back in those days, that kind of information wasn't readily available. So, in Richmond,
I got an appointment to go to the medical examiner's office, and that's where I met Dr. Marcela Fiero, who was
one of the first, I think, five women forensic pathologists in in the country. Wow. You know,
>> that's awesome. >> And I mean, how lucky was I? I didn't even know there were women medical
examiners. and this is the one I meet. And she gave me a tour of the the autopsy suite, you know, the three
stainless steel tables that are attached to the floor and the huge cooler that she opened and the the filthy smelling,
dead smelling condensation rolls out like a horror movie and you know, whoosh and you see the body bags in there. And
so that was my first taste of all this and I went back to do more research and finally I've always I tell everybody
this if you want to find out things make yourself useful. >> Yeah. >> So I said what do to be helpful here? I
started doing technical writing and then they became computerized and they and I
end up taking over their computer system. But I'd go in the morg every morning and I would watch the autopsies
and I would take the notes for the doctors or I'd hang up bloody clothing. Um, I'd put organs in scales and write
down the weights and do, you know, I was the pill counter. You know, when your prescription drugs came in, I'm the
dummy who just gets to one, two, three. I'm afraid he he might have taken a little bit too much of his fentinel.
I know it's not funny, but um that and you know, but it was all to write murder mysteries. That's why I wanted to learn
this. It was be and I just was so fascinated. All the forensic labs were upstairs and so I could go up to
toxicology or fingerprints or back in the day cerology what's now DNA. And that is why my books have so much of
that kind of detail because I had a six-year full-time education in it and then continue to learn it ever since. So
my medical examiner experience um is that I I really ended up there six years because every book I wrote was nobody
wanted. I wrote postmortem was the fourth the fourth attempt. >> That's wild to me. By then I thought it
was going to be my post-mortem because I was very dejected and unbelievably you know at that age when you're 20s in your
20s you're it's it's such a hard time because you're trying to figure out who you are
here for you know do we have a purpose and when I kept failing at what I thought was my only purpose which is to
write it was a very dark time but but I will tell all of those who everyone who listens to this who gets discouraged.
The thing about it is if I had gotten my way and my first murder mystery been published, number one, it would have
ruined my career because it was really not good. >> And two, I would have thought I knew
enough and I didn't need to be at the medical examiner's office anymore, and I needed to be there a long time to walk
around in Scarpetta's shoes. >> All right. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. >> I love that. That's wild. I still can't
believe that you had trouble getting published at first. It's >> I wrote it was a book a year. The first
year I was there was one book called The Stick Doll Murders. And then the second
one was Murder in the Lost Hund. Oo, that sounds spooky. And then the third one was called The Queen's Pawn. And no,
no, no. And then an editor said to me, I finally called up the same editor who rejected me three times. You're not
supposed to do that, by the way. And I said, "I know I'm not supposed to call you on the phone." I said, "But should I
quit? Just tell me." >> Oh my god. >> Said, "Uh, no, I don't think you should quit." But I said, "Well, what am I
doing wrong?" And she said, "Well, you work in a medical examiner's office, don't you?" And I said, "Yes, I do now."
And um she said, "Well, the stuff that you're writing about, is that what you see every day?" And I said, I never see
any of what I just what I write about. I mean, because I'm writing about buried treasure and archaeology digs that go
wrong and you know, all the it was sort of like Agatha Christie meets autopsies and it didn't work.
>> Um, it was a little it was a hybrid. And and she said, and also your best character is this woman medical examiner
named Dr. Scarpetta. She was a minor character in the first three books. >> And she said, why don't you write it
from her point of view? I'd like to know what she thinks. I thought, "Oh my god,
I don't know if I can do that." And if I show people what I really see and I let
that invade my imagination, I don't know if I can survive it. Cuz now I'm going down every morning and
seeing horrors on the tables, someone struck by lightning, someone killed by a wild animal, somebody who's been raped
and murdered. >> I could I mean, I've seen thousands and thousands of cases over the years. and
and and by that time there were serial murders that were had just started in Richmond.
>> Oh yeah. >> This was 1987. Uh the southside strangling cases and they were going on they began while I
was working at the Emmys office and I'm telling you all of us were terrified. >> Yeah.
>> That's when I bought my first gun and tooking lessons. I put a deadbolt on my
bedroom door. I was I had got I was divorced at that time so I was living alone and I thought to myself and I
watched Dr. Fierra worked in these cases. She'd come home, she'd go, she'd get called out in the middle of the
night and oh here, and here's a terrible story. One of the early victims in the Southside strangling cases, was a woman
neurosurgeon who was finishing her residency at the Medical College of Virginia, right down the road from the
Emy's office. This lovely young woman. And here's the weird thing. A year earlier, I'd been over to that medical
college with Dr. Fiero. was doing a lab, what they call a wet lab where you take
or in this case brains that have been fixed in formula and I can tell you guys this since you have a show named morbid
this is your fault your fault that you're getting all this okay we'll take it to she's doing a a brain cutting
around all the neuropathology students and neurosurgeon residents and there was this one woman in a lab coat
on the other side of the room young woman with long red hair and and I was feeling so ill at ease cuz I'm this
stupid person who was an English major. I'm not a med student. I have three books that nobody's wanted and I'm still
trying and and I was just I don't know. I was having an uncomfortable moment and
I felt somebody looking at me and I looked across the room and the redheaded woman was staring at me and she smiled
just this warm like hello, you're fine here. >> That's all it takes sometimes. >> Fine.
>> That was the woman who was murdered. >> Wow. And when that happened a year later, I rem I've never forgotten her
looking at me. And I mean, and then I'm looking at her and and crime scene photographs when I'm out with the
detective. >> That's awful. >> Yes. >> I can't imagine that. >> And so I'm saying to myself, how do I
write about something like this without actually adding to the problem or celebrating what we should condemn?
>> And I figured out, you know what? If I'm going to show you the real thing, then
damn it, I'm gonna tell you the truth. >> Yeah. >> I'm gonna do it through Scarpetta's
point of view because that is the only way really that I can get away with it >> because she's not celebrating it at all.
She's trying to fix it. >> She's doing a job. >> She's also not going to lie to you and
say, "Oh, it didn't hurt very much." >> Nope. >> She's going to say, "This was awful."
>> Right. >> Um >> that's what I love about her. That's my very long story for how that all
happened. Now you don't have to read my memoir when it comes back. >> We still will in the spring.
>> Oh, I'm excited for that. >> That's awesome. I'll definitely read it anyways.
>> So that's when you may have to come visit me in person. >> Oh, we'll absolutely do that.
>> We're in. Yeah, >> cuz you're welcome back anytime. I can't wait to hear more about this.
>> And actually, like I love hearing these stories because I worked as an autopsy
technician in Boston. >> Yeah. For I think >> five years, actually. Well, that's
really called in my own my old biz that's called burying the lead. >> Yeah. >> Because I didn't know I was talking to a
confederate here where we can compare notes. >> Yeah. As soon as I heard you talking
about like the wet, you know, wet specimens and all the brain cutting. I was like, it was a brain
>> cut. And you know what? You'll never forget that smell of formalin will. >> No.
>> And formalhide, which I hate even worse. At least the diluted stuff doesn't. But
that Oh, terrible. >> Yeah. And you can taste it, too. >> It's awful. like food would taste like
it later. >> You and so you understand when I write about that when Scarpetta comes home at
the end of a long day at the morg that she when she goes in the shower or she showers in her office before she goes
home and appreciates that but she washes up inside her nose. >> Yeah. and gargles because the molecules
of the nasty stuff are are in the air. And when you're smelling it, it's because it's the molecules of lovely
things called putrifaction among other things >> and that's what you're smelling. It's
all molecular. And so she >> scrub a dubdubs because you feel you feel I remember when the first started
smelling that stuff, I would start imagining I smelled it like right when I was getting ready to eat something.
>> Yes. >> Oh yes. Yep. I was very surprised to I think like one of the first autopsies
that I was part of, I went to I went to dinner later that night with my husband and the first bite I took, I was like,
>> "Why do I feel like this smells like what I was just in?" And he was like, "That was horrifying."
>> It's your memory because it your your sense of smell is really your most powerful
>> sense. Um >> it blew my mind. my neuros my my my neuroscientist partner Stacy could tell
you all the reasons why that's the case but that's why smells the olifactory um experience is so powerful and in fact
you can smell something and it can create that it triggers a memory that will actually make you feel the way you
did when you smelled it before like I went to um and when I was in I took a tour I went I drove across Austria way
back in the early 90s and one of the things I wanted to see when I was there was the Mohousen um death camp from the
concentration camp. I'd read a book about it and I thought >> I I want Scarpetta I want her to see
this through me. I want to see the reality of of one of these horrible places. And when I was walking through
one of the barracks where they'd kept these poor um the the Jewish prisoners that they were so merciless to. I
thought I I smelled the inside of a of a cooler and you know exactly what I'm talking about.
>> It's a very sink old death so powerfully that I said to the person I was with, I
have to leave. >> That was all just really a hallucination obviously, >> but it was remembered odor. And you know
this may sound gross to people but you need to understand why all this is important to human biology. Yeah, we are
programmed to be repelled by things that we should stay away from. >> Absolutely.
>> So, you know, if the whole colony was wiped out by a plague and you smell that
in the woods when you're in the primitive age, you rode the other way really fast. That might happen to you.
>> Yeah. >> Just comes down to survival. >> Absolutely. And >> all of this is all about survival. Our
fear, >> our wanting to read scary stories is all about our survival instinct. >> Yep. It gets that fight or flight going.
You worked in a morg then when in my opening scene in sharp force when Scarpetta is working on a floater in the
autopsy suite some guy poor guy that's been in the river for a while then you know what that's like
>> that's a unique experience for sure that is a very unique experience a very unique smell and a
very unique >> horrible >> way of going about an autopsy it's totally different >> which is crazy and that'll stay with you
that image for sure. >> Well, you know, I was coming, this is a I think a wonderful way to think of it.
One day when I was working at the medical examiner's office and we had such a case um a man who had been out
fishing with this his young boy in the James River in Richmond and this was a hot summer day and he and we don't know
why or nobody knew why, but he ended up going overboard and his body wasn't found for a while. So when it came to
the our office, it was very, you know, very very decomposed and and it was really really awful. I mean, it would
really kind of it would go through the whole building to be honest with you. >> And so I was in staff meeting and I was
getting ready to go downstairs with Dr. Fiero to scribe while she did her cases and she was going to do that one cuz she
didn't nothing phased her. we're rid an elevator down. And I said, you know, sometimes I really don't know how you
stand this. I don't know how you do it. And she looked at me and she said, I just try to imagine him before he got
here. And so suddenly I saw this man on a beautiful summer day with his boy fishing, you know, with his baseball cap
and the white sparkling on the water and everything's happy. and he that's what I
tried to think when I was actually looking at what she was doing after that and and I thought that that is how we
should do it because we don't want to objectify human beings. I mean what we leave behind is not pretty but we but if
we were around to see it we would be embarrassed. >> Yeah. >> We say we'd apologize. Sorry I'm such a
mess. >> Yeah. It's so true. And it makes you feel like you have a purpose when you
think of them that way before they got on the table. there's a purpose to the whole thing instead of just meaningless,
you know, clinical way of looking at it. Like when I one of the things I always say when I worked at the morg was it
always like little things would get me during an autopsy like somebody having nail polish on. I was like you didn't
know that that was the nail polish you would be wearing forever like that that was the last time you were going to put
on nail polish or if they had their hair in a braid or something. I was always like wow you just didn't know that that
was your last hairstyle. Like it's >> and I never wanted to cut those hairstyles. I was always careful to not
cut the braid off if I was doing a neuroase. And >> though you have to make it personal. You
can't look at it just dead pan because >> you have to have the ability to have some empathy. And you imagine that
person on the table is if it were your mother or some somebody you deeply care about if it's you.
>> Yeah. And and I and I do one I I'm so lucky that I was around the right kind of people when I was learning all this.
But most of all, Dr. Fiero and that she used to there was one thing she would never tolerate in her autopsy suite. You
so much you show even one iod of disrespect >> towards those cases in there and your
ass is thrown out. She say out to you should be. >> Yeah. Because it keeps you it keeps you
on task to sit there. You have to keep reminding yourself like this is somebody somebody.
>> Mhm. >> So I have to be as >> well. The interesting thing in some cultures there is a belief that when you
die your consciousness, your spirit, whatever you want to call it, hovers around the body for a while. So in in
particular in primitive cultures, they they would not do anything to anybody. They leave them for a while. Even in
Italy, you I think it's you've got to wait about 24 hours before you do an autopsy on somebody. sense.
>> Um, and the and it's because of this of not being sure >> when that transition is being made and
trying to be as respectful as you can. >> Yeah. >> And so >> I always just think don't ever talk
around a dead person. Don't say anything in front of them you wouldn't say if they were still alive and and then
you're safe. >> Yeah. Exactly. >> It's so true. and maybe their ghost won't bother you
as much as as when you it won't creek in the walls and you won't hear someone walking on your floorboard late at
night, you know, feel like they follow you home. [Music] Well, and with all your experience, I
know that sometimes I find myself nitpicking in like pop culture, like books, movies, TV, uh, about crime
scenes or autopsies if they get it wrong. Is are there things that drive you crazy that happen a lot in like pop
culture for autopsies and crime scenes? >> Well, I think one thing is when when somebody acts like they have a bedside
manner in the morg, it's ridiculous. I mean, we're respectful. you know that, but you're not saying, "Oh, now this
won't hurt very much." And and of course, the other thing is now I I understand why TV has to do this. I
mean, cuz they're visual, but like if you you've seen the shows like CSI where they have mirrors on the table so you
can see the dead person's face. Yeah. >> Never. >> Of course, that isn't done. But I I
understand I my attitude is they're translating and making a story that works for their medium and have to make
it palatable. >> And and a lot of what they do, they don't have a whole lot of choice because
of what they're doing. But there are I can't think of anything right off the bat, but there are there are so many
times where I've seen things where I go, you know, you didn't even try to get that right.
>> That's me, too. Those are the ones that >> there's no way somebody would just say
that or that they would do what you just did or I I know when they touch things with no gloves on.
>> Yes. >> That makes me crazy. >> And you know it's or no masks. And why? Because I get it. You don't want the the
actress covering her face all the time. >> Mhm. >> To be honest with you, the way people
are bundled up in Tyveck these days, they really do look like a house under construction all wrapped up. Yes. Um,
and and so that's not a good look if you're a movie star. >> No, it doesn't quite translate.
>> The gloves thing always drives me nuts, though, because I was always like, "No,
you wear like at least like three or four pairs of gloves so you can keep ripping them off the whole time."
>> So funny. >> Well, I remember um one of the early scripts for the Scarpetta movie that
never got made. And by the way, we do have a show that will be out in the spring. But um I I remember that this
the writer had Scarpetta stopping at a in the middle of a a terrible part of town, you know, for a crime scene on her
way home from something else. She goes in, she whips out her her makeup bag, zips it open, gets a pair of tweezers
out, and then goes and collects a piece of evidence with it. >> And I said, "What is it about
understand? >> Where did that come from? Well, she also was driving a a red Tesla electric car
and I thought way back in the day when I thought she not going to take any chance
of that electric car battery going to go dead where she's parked right now. >> Absolutely not. I would never put her
electric >> car that you don't see as much of that anymore though. People um really truly I
know because I'm dealing with screenwriters right now for the Scarpetta show and and they're much more
well-versed in all this the writers are than they used to be. And there's also so much more available.
You can even Google. >> Yeah. So true. >> And I and you know there's so much more
that you can find out for yourself now. >> Oh, definitely. And speaking of the Scarpetta television series, cuz I've
been waiting for so long. Like I started reading your books. I'm 39. I started reading your books when I think I was
like 13 or 14 cuz I was super into it. I read Postmortem first. I went all the way through. My husband will buy me each
new book whenever it comes out. It's like the present he gets me. >> That's very nice. Will you tell him I
thank him for that? >> I will. He'll love that. But I've been waiting for this. I've been really
excited to see it on any screen really. And one thing that made me so excited was hearing that Bobby Canavali is
playing Marino. >> I feel like that is the most perfect casting choice. >> I I I I told everybody I said, "And you
really expect that he and Dr. Scarpetta are not going to have an affair now that
I now that she knows he looks like that. >> Honestly, she she would say to me, um,
well, you didn't tell me he looks like that. The way you describe him in your books, you can see why I didn't have an
affair with him. So, anyway, yes, I think and and I can assure you because I have seen, you know, the eight episodes
um that that you will be seeing next year in the spring and um he's fabulous. I believe
>> in the scenes with him and Nicole Kidman and Jaime Lee Curtis. I mean, it's all
the you couldn't ask for a more powerful cast. They've done a great job. I think
people are going to have fun. I mean, don't expect it to be identical to my books. Uh because it it can't possibly
be um because it's TV. But but the other thing is um if you think about my books
for the most part there are a few that I wrote from what we call the third person
point of view but they're always from Scarpetta's perspective. I mean almost all of them especially the ones now.
>> So if you're only seeing what she's seeing the screenwriters have to create a lot of scenes that aren't in my books
like what happens when Marina goes home and has had a squabble with Dorothy or what's Lucy doing in the guest cottage?
Um, you know, so those things and that's kind of fun because you're not only getting my story, but you're getting
something new. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> I hope I hope you and everyone will have lots of fun with it.
>> Oh, I'm sure I will. Yeah, people are so excited for it. >> Very excited. I think we'll have a big
watch party. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Good. >> You mentioned working with screenwriters. Are you able to write on
it at all or have you been able to? >> I haven't done any writing, but I do review all the scripts and
>> Nice. Um, you know, I my my big thing is the techniques and the the science and
>> all that, making sure helping with that as best I can. Um, I've, you know, if
they occasionally they'll ask me to sit in on the writer's room if they have some questions. Um, and also just
because I like to encourage them. I love to encourage a lot of them are very young and um, if that that's at least I
can do at this stage because I know what it feels like. I know what it feels like to get
started. Of course, they're doing a pretty good job getting started since they're on such a major show, but
>> yeah, >> it's not exactly small potatoes to start with when you're writing something for
>> Definitely not. >> Three Oscarinning actors, you know, Jamie and Nicole and um also Ariana
Deose who plays >> Oh my god. >> Oh, awesome. >> Stacked. >> I'm just I just want her to hurry up
sing, >> right? Like, let's go. >> This is an iconic cast. It really is. >> We're so excited. Uh something else
we're obviously so excited for is Sharp Force, which if you're listening to this
uh the day it premieres, it will come out. Sharp Force will come out tomorrow, October 7th. So, while writing Sharp
Force, what was the most bizarre piece of research that you did where you kind of thought if somebody saw this, I'd be
in a lot of trouble? >> Well, that's um truth is if if anybody saw most of what I'm doing, I'd probably
be in trouble. I keep waiting for a knock on my door because of the kind of stuff I
>> I search on the internet. >> How many times can you be asking about this kind of weapon or how long it would
take to kill somebody before somebody decides they better check out your enterprise what's going on in there?
>> But the the hologram part of it, you know, that it was it's that was very creepy to research the notion that that
you can create a hologram. Well, let's just back up and say what is the genesis of this ghosts? You know, we've heard
about ghosts all our life and you know people who have seen them. Maybe you have or you've had a weird experience
that defines defies any sort of explanation. And so I thought, what tech I'm always interested in what technology
could supply an answer or an explanation for things we see that we don't understand, whether it's Bigfoot, a
quote flying saucer, or in this case, a ghost. And so I thought, is there technology that could create ghosts? And
the answer is yes. holographic technology combined with highly highly technical drone technology that you know
can be a flying projector so to speak and and understanding that electromagnetic energy isn't always
light waves it can also be radio waves that can go right through your bedroom wall. So, the idea that you could wake
up in the middle of the night with this horrible phantom creature hovering over your bed looking like something from the
1800s with red glowing eyes and saying, "Death becomes you. Death becomes you. Death becomes you." And creepy music
playing. The idea that that could really happen is true. >> Yeah, it could. >> That's the thing.
>> Closer to it than ever. I know. We really are. >> The hologram can't kill you. However,
this serial killer who uses this for stalking, he does it before he shows up. And so, that was eerie um technology to
be sort of digging into. And the old psychiatric hospital, Mercy Island, >> you know, I love creepy places. Creepy
places are a character. And anyone anyone with the show called Morbid certainly knows that.
>> Oh, yeah. And then of course when she's driving home in the snowy kind of fog and she
hears this weird animal howling coming from the woods on her property and then it turns out when they do voice analysis
the vocalization of it does not seem to belong to any animal on this planet. >> That is horrifying to me.
>> Oh yeah chilling for sure. >> That alone would I love that. I think that is so true.
>> I don't know how she stays in her house. >> I don't either. >> No. Every time I have a scene, I mean,
I'm working on a new one now and and Scarpetta is in her house and it's a horrible thunderstorm and the p and a
transformers blown somewhere. Kaboom and the power goes out and all the security
clamors are are dark and I'm thinking, why are you staying in this place? Get out. Seriously, get out. What are you
doing, girl? Find a nice little condo with a door, man. >> Seriously. >> Maybe like one of the tallest floors you
can get. >> Yeah. Survival instinct. Let's go. >> She's never She's never really scared.
She just takes it in stride. She's always forgetting her gun. >> Yeah. She never runs away, though. She's
never running. >> Oh, rats. I knew I left something behind. And this guy is standing there
in front of the greenhouse. Oh, boy. >> We've all been there. >> Yeah. You know, it happens.
>> And you know what? After like more than 30 years of writing Scarpetta, how are
you able to keep her evolving? Because you really do keep her evolving, but but still maintaining what a badass she is,
like the core of what she is. You know, it's it's really important that I write stories that are set in the real world.
And the real world that we live in now, which is changing at the speed of light.
Yeah. >> And it's a very hard world to set a murder a crime novel in because there's
cameras everywhere. I mean, there's so much technology that if you're not careful, the the book would be one page
long. >> Yeah. It's because we already know who did it, you know. um we we tra that we
we found their signal bouncing off that cell tower and then and then we got you know one cell DNA and figured out who
did whatever. So a lot of people aren't choosing to set thrillers and they they set them in the 80s and the '9s for that
reason. >> I insist on letting Scarpetta in fact making her live in the same world we do
and then and dealing with it accordingly. And so by having that as my focus, you know, I'm going to come up
with a different idea for every book because, you know, if you're just watching what's
going on in society and I have to know what all the latest technologies are, not only to use them, but to defeat
them. So that if I want a scene, you know, for example, if I don't want your phone picked up, no signal, then then I
might have you use a Faraday bag like this. This is a real thing. You put your phone in this and you cannot receive
signals and they will not transmit signals. And that's the kind of technology they use in what are called
skiffs, you know, where you go over top secret information. Um, they use what's called Faraday cages or Faraday bags
that block out all electromagnet magnetic signals. Like if you go to visit some of the various buildings at
the FBI academy in Quantico, um they will take your phone the minute you walk into certain buildings and it gets put
in a metal locker that's basically a Faraday cage because your your phone can be used to spy.
>> Yeah. Oh, absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> With Wi-Fi technology, we're we're open
channels for something to hack into it. And as you know from having worked in a medical examiner's office, the big
threat these days are our phones and people going in and filming and photographing when when they and then
next thing you know it's the bodies all over the internet. And we've seen we've seen that every time there's a huge
case. It's all over the news. >> Oh yeah. It's such a problem and it becomes more and more of a problem as
these phones get like smaller and thinner and have more technology on them and things you can hide. It's crazy.
And it's also now we also have to worry about photographs being posted out there
that aren't even real. They're fake >> and people believe that is the injury somebody had and it's completely made
up. So that these are all these are all part of the modern challenges that Scarpetta
>> lives with. >> But but what I try to do is not get too bogged down in all that because people
don't it's withering after a while and people want >> they want something that makes them
feel. >> Yeah, for sure. Definitely the haunted old hospital where there's a burial
ground where there's suspicion about how some of those people in the asylum died
hundreds of years ago. You know, you want these things that that that really go to our core. Just like when you walk
into Scarpetta's house, you want to smell her wonderful food. You want something good in the kitchen. You want
a lovely bottle of wine or whatever they're going to open. And you know that's I try to make it a rich sensory
experience for you both good and bad. >> You really have too cuz that's one of the things I love about Scarpetta is
that she's like a brilliant cook as well. I love that she has those two parts of her cuz cooking is so creative
and like you know emotional and grounding >> and everybody can be friends when they're eating. Mhm.
>> You know, I I I I've had over the years I've had a lot of people ask me, "Do you
think I mean, does Scarpetta know Dexter?" And if she met Dexter, I mean, would she rat him out? And I said,
"Well, listen, I I believe that he lives near her and I think they get together on foodie night.
>> Barbecues where she does her, you know, her flash dogs and her bourbon honey steaks on the grill and they and they
discuss pasta." And so I don't know if she knows what he does, but I know she knows what he what he eats.
>> Yeah, for sure. Nice little nice little potluck. >> And I think that they're buddies. I'm
sorry, but I think they get along just fine. >> Oh, I love that. That's canon now.
>> That makes a great image in your head. >> She would say, "Well, I know that person
had it coming, but >> but you know, natural causes. >> She saw nothing. >> Is great though."
>> Yeah. So, specifically for Sharp Force, but honestly this can go with really any
of your novels. Were there any scenes you've written that you've thought like, hm, like this might be too far, I should
tone this down, or or when you feel that way, if you have, do you just like lean
further into it? I um I don't feel that way about what I'm what I write these days because I'm really really careful
of it. But there were some books I wrote earlier, particularly when I decided not
to use Scarpetta as the point of view, but to have it more what they call the omnisient point of view, you know, third
person, which means you have to spend time with the killer. >> Yeah. >> It's going to show what the killer's
doing or thinking. And in my book, Book of the Dead, which ironically won one of
the biggest awards of all my books, but but in my but there are things I did in that book that I wouldn't do again. And
I mean, this character, the bad the evil person was into cannibalism, and it was
it was quite graphic. Um, it disturbingly so for me. I mean, I I quit eating at my desk while I was writing
that book. Um, but here's I actually had somebody I won't say who or where, but there was a research facility where I
was offered the they said, "Would you like to um cook some human flesh and see what that smells like?" And I said, "No,
I would not. I do not need I will not go that far for my my research." >> Like, thank you for asking.
>> I mean, I don't know what people think, but I've I've been asked if I wanted to
try the scalpel and do a Y incision. I said, "No, never. That's not for me to do. I am I'm an English maker think too.
>> It's I'm I don't practice on a dead body. No, no, no. That's not I'm just I'm I'm an author. No, that's not for me
to do. You do it and I'll describe what you did. >> Yeah. >> There you go. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. You're like I can I can observe and still have all that I need to see. >> But it's a good question because
everybody should have certain boundaries. Yeah. And um you know I don't want it's it's an in it's an alarm
system that's built in me and actually I think my books are a little bit more gentle that way than they used to be.
>> Um it will sound crazy but I try to kill people without it hurting too much. >> I love that. I love how
>> even if they're bad even if they're bad I just I just say you know what I'm going to get rid of you. You have to be
done in. But I I'm not going to drag this out. just it won't be too terrible. Just go back to sleep and yeah, you
know, you you'll end up in some other book and you'll be fine. >> Yeah, there you go. We'll dispatch of
you here and we'll see you later. Well, that makes so much sense to me because um I've I've published two books and
they're, you know, serial killer thrillers and they also have a female medical examiner that I kind of like got
from my own experience. Um and I found this a challenge in my own books and I think you're so masterful at this in
particular. I'm curious to know how you manage to maintain such like sharp and that pun intended sharp accuracy
forensically in your books. Like you really keep all of that so accurate and so grounded, but you also you're
welcome. And you also keep that pace though in your books really tight and keep it really thrilling. So I'm just
wondering how you're able to maintain like how do you achieve that? Well, fortunately, because I started out
actually learning from being in the actual environment, like if I wanted to know what the scanning electron
microscope would do with, you know, if if somebody used one of these little things, a post-it you to to lift trace
evidence off of, you know, they're putting it on the hand or whatever, because things will adhere to that very
weak adhesive that then go up to the trace evidence lab, and then you might see something on the scanning electron
microscope is magnifying something a 100 thousand times, maybe even a million times. and and and when you learn about
these technologies and and and what they are and how it works and that for example a scanning electron microscope
on Earth is actually doing something very similar to what the web telescope does out in space where it's not only
defining the morphology the shape of what you're looking at like a a jagged piece of dust might look like an
asteroid when it's magnified that much with the with the microscope but but it's also telling you what something's
made out of, >> you know, it can tell you that an asteroid is made out of platinum. It can
tell you that this fleck of paint also has has traces of of lead. That might mean it's old paint or there's a a
little bit of asbestous >> or that there's many layers of paint, meaning the car was painted over and
over again, multiple times, and that would be a unique identifier if you find the car that hit that person, the hit
and run. See what I mean? Yeah. So if you've learned the fundamentals of these scientific applications, then when you
roll ahead 35 years, then as as long as you keep up with what's actually being used, it's really not changed that much.
You you now have rapid DNA testing where you can put a swab in a little a little
machine basically and in minutes it will give you a DNA profile. >> Well, that was there was no such thing
as that. >> No, definitely not. >> Just getting started. But it it doesn't change the DNA science. It just what
what it tells you is that it's so sensitive now that in some cases it's almost an obstruction because if you can
walk through a room and leave one cell of DNA, one skin cell that's going to give your profile. What if that skin
cell is from eight months ago? >> Oh yeah. >> You're picking up all kinds of stuff.
Yeah. That is actually because it's so sensitive. It's both good and it's bad because it's also picking up all kinds
of things that are interfering with what you're thinking. So, it's just if you learn, you build on what you learn. If
you stop learning, then one day the gap is too big and you can't catch up. So, what I say to everybody is whatever
you're interested in and if you spent a lot of time in your early years getting proficient in it, keep keep up with it.
Yeah. Yeah, cuz you you'll understand all the changes. >> Mhm. >> But you got to know the fundamentals
first. >> That's so true. That is definitely >> you let that gap happen. Like what you
said is totally correct because having to catch up on all that afterwards, you're just going to be
>> completely out of the galaxy with it. >> There's no way. >> Autopsies are they're they're not done
all that differently than they were back in the day when Michelangelo was, you know, doing it to learn more about what
the human body looks like. I mean so um there are tech there are things you can use in modern times like scanning
equipment um you know there the virtual autopsy which is you know done with a CT
scanner like the military uses like the Baltimore medical examiner's office has one of those um but you know for the
most part I think autopsies will just keep being done the way they've been done first of all as you know anybody
that's worked in that system it is not Scarpetta has an unusually amazing budget Mhm. She sure does.
>> She's always complaining about her budget, but whatever she wants, it's somehow magically there because
>> which you need >> cuz I I'm Santa Claus. I don't think you need it. I'll give it to her. You know,
we not only need that kind of microscope, but we need one of these kinds, too. >> It's just another million dollars. No
problem. >> Don't worry about it. That's actually It's funny cuz when when I worked in the
Borg, I was shocked to find out that the things we used for as rippers were just
like hedge clippers from Home Depot. like they were the orange the dirty. Oh, listen. When I was when I worked in the
morg and since the the main the main show was Dr. Fier, the woman who then became the first woman chief uh in
Virginia. Um she would bring in the knitting needles from her her in-laws, the mother and the mother-in-law that
because they all they they they're Italians. They all lived in the same house. She'd bring in the knitting
needles they didn't need anymore. And she used them for bullet probes. So she'd get up,
>> you know, put that here's the entrance. Let's see where that thing Oh, it stops
here. Nope. There. You know, especially in multiple gunshot wounds. Genius. >> You know, it worked fine. Now, you could
buy a bullet probe, >> but >> but for x number hundreds of dollars that >> we when I was doing some research in the
Charleston Medical Examiner's Office in South Carolina, this is this is my idea of having fun with a forensic
pathologist. On the lunch break, we went shopping. We went shopping to a restaurant supply store
>> of huge pots so that when they when they were, you know, when the skeletonized
body stuff, you know, bodies are coming in, when you want to clean the bones, you you boil all this.
>> Well, that takes a very big cauldron. And so, you can't get that in your regular place. So, that my treat my
treat because I was making the big bucks. I take them shopping. I say to heart's
content. Any ladle you want, any big pot, any two cup steel measuring cup. So that when you're seeing how some how
much someone hemorrhaged in their chest cavity, I'm your person. >> You're Santa Claus tall.
>> Look at that. >> Now that's that is morbid Christmas right there. >> That is That is You need to come on
Morbid more. You fit right in. >> You see, nobody's going to like me anymore after hearing this cuz now
they're hearing what a weirdo I am. >> No, you came to the right place. >> I love you more. Our listeners will love
you. >> Our listeners are called weirdos, in fact. >> Exactly. >> Well, you know, it's Well, I'll tell you
the weirdest research I ever did, >> and I don't recommend this for anyone, but I really did want to know how long a
bite mark, if you bit somebody after they're dead, how long does that bite mark, if it's an indentation,
>> how long can you see that before it might fade? Well, I didn't know any dead people that would want me to bite them.
Not that I would be willing, nor did I know any living ones, including me, who might agree to such a thing and wouldn't
be the same cuz I'm going to heal. So, I thought, well, what about a piece of chicken? A dead, you know, raw chicken.
>> Oh, there you go. >> So, that's what I did. I practiced the bite marks with a piece of raw chicken
and and and answered my question and then would very quickly wash my mouth off with the most powerful antiseptic
you can imagine. >> That was ex That's exactly what I was just going to ask. >> That was lawless of you.
>> Anything for the research though, right? If I were to do it again, I don't know
why I didn't just get a pair of dentures or fake teeth. >> Wouldn't that have been smarter?
>> But you know what? You >> see, I'm a little bit slow on the take sometimes. I should have just There were
many ways to simulate that without me putting my own silly little chip chops on it. Horrible
>> disease from raw chicken meat out salmonella. >> All in a day's work, right? >> Well, what'd you find out?
>> I found out that they would fade a little bit and that if someone bites a dead chicken, we probably can figure out
that the chicken was bitten. In other words, it was rather worthless that >> you know, but you can say it worked for
my purposes, whatever. I just was curious >> and you know what, you have a good story
now, so it was worth it. >> But you know that I was also the blood supplier when I would do when I would be
filmed for like Prime Time Live or various big shows and they wanted blood on the floor for something and and so
I'd say, you know, I'll be right back and I go and prick my finger and go dripping blood everywhere.
>> Oh my goodness. >> Just leave your DNA everywhere. Oh, you're welcome. >> I mean that the if you have a copy of
From Potter's Field. Oh, now here is a morbid factoid that hardly anybody knows. Oh, I love this.
>> If you have an the early hard copy of from Potter's Field, which which came out in the mid '9s,
>> on the cover there is a footprint in snow that has blood drips on it. Okay. Now, I made that footprint in snow by
buying an antique military boot. We put fake snow out. We put the bootprint in it. I pricricked my finger and bled my
own blood. And so I said, "Hypothetically, my DNA is on the cover of that book." That is so badass.
>> No, that is my blood you're looking at. Because if I took one, you know, nobody
else had any blood handy, so I said, "Oh, no biggie. I'm just You're like, I got some. I got a lot."
>> You took blood, sweat, and tears to the next level off that one. >> Yeah. Amazing.
[Music] Switching gears a little bit here. Um, I want to talk about your characters a
little bit and obviously you've been writing them for a while. So, do you feel like they kind of lead you to where
they want to go sometimes at this point or do you feel totally in control writing them where they're where they
should be? >> You know, it's a funny thing. I guess the best way to answer that is I would
say it's a collaboration because I I think in terms of scenes, you know, some and sometimes I'll actually have a list
of certain scenes that I want to do and and I kind of map out how to get her to the to wherever that scene is. But
sometimes she has ideas of her own >> and and there are also times where where she and Marina are getting in the truck
to head somewhere and I'm not really sure what they're going to find when they get there. And I'm and I'll say to
them, not literally, but I'm thinking, I hope you know what you're doing because
I'm drawing a big blank about where to go after. >> You better show me, >> right?
>> They're driving along wishing they had a cigarette, >> chewing gum. They're not listening to
me. No. >> In fact, they, you know, when they go to the the food court after a hard day of
working terrible crime scene, they they sit there and Marino says, you know, it was like something straight out of a
Patricia Cornwell novel. You don't even know that you're in a novel and you're like, well, do we know what we're in?
Maybe we're in a novel. >> Maybe sometimes I feel that way. It does feel that way.
>> I love that. >> Well, there is the the theory that we're living in a simulated universe.
>> And every once in a while it'll you'll be like, is it true? Like sometimes things happen that you're like, makes
sense. >> Yeah. So, how does it feel? I have to ask this to have inspired literally like a
generation of thriller slashcrime writers, particularly women, specifically me. >> Good. Then I've done a good thing if
I've inspired you. >> You really have. Like you were the first person, especially like a woman writer,
and writing about the things that I was so excited to learn about cuz I was always very interested in like the
autopsy part. >> Now, in your books is your ma who is your main character? My main character
is Dr. Ren Mueller. >> And what kind of doctor is she? >> She's a forensic pathologist.
>> Ah, well, now I'm gonna give you a I I'll share a trade secret with you then since we both write about the same
thing. Is, you know, when I was getting started, medical examiners had a very prescribed thing that they did. And
sometimes the forensic pathologist would go to a crime scene. And back in those days, there weren't really death
investigators, but in but you know, they they had they they did their thing and they testified in court and that was and
they taught and that was about it. It's really these days boundaries are not quite so clear. And I know a lot of
forensic pathologists who've gone way over those boundaries, you know, where they actually will get more involved in
helping you reconstruct what happened to, you know, in a shooting or this. Um, and I think that I think that we have
permission to make our forensic pathologists a little bit more proactive. Absolutely. Especially since
uh this is something most people don't know, and I don't know if this is true in Massachusetts, but I do know it's
true in in um like the Los Angeles coroner's office that a lot of forensic pathologists are also peace officers.
They are sworn police >> and they have to have a gun. They have to know how to shoot it. They carry a
badge and they can arrest people. Y >> but they don't usually do it. >> Um and one of the reasons that they're
peace officers is very often these people uh they respond to scenes in very dangerous areas
>> as you know. >> Absolutely. My only thing I would say to you is, you know, you can let your
person I I, you know, maybe you already do, but I think that you can have them more proactive because one of the things
I would get frustrated with with writing about a medical examiner is is I want her to sit down with a family and talk
to them in their home. I want her to go somewhere. I want her to do something. I
want her to to get I want more drama. >> Yeah. Absolutely. >> So, I have really ramped up the drama. I
mean, I have Scarpetta doing all kinds of things that she, you know, maybe she wouldn't really do, but it doesn't
matter, does it? >> Yeah. And it makes sense. >> But I had to learn to not be too wedded
to what I knew was true. >> And that it took me years um to get over >> working around the real environment all
the time because I I'd feel like, well, you can't have her do that. A medical examiner. Oh, no. She can't be a
helicopter pilot. No medical examiner could be a helicopter pilot. You better make Lucy the helicopter pilot. Well, if
I were doing that again today, I probably would have scared to be a helicopter pilot. I might have that she
learned it in the military. Who knows what I would do, but I would give her a very different background if I were
starting this all over again. I would have her >> more a little bit more dramatic, more
involved in stuff and then and I think that you can do that. You know, it's sort of like in Great Britain where they
have what's called a police surgeon. >> Yeah. That's really the old tradition is
having a doctor that that assists with the police, but that you know, but they're actually kind of working more
with the police than just something that's very separate from it. >> So, I would say pull out all the stops,
baby. >> Hell yeah. I love that's great advice. I love that cuz I love having that cuz
>> I think it's fun to one of the things I love about K Scarpetta especially is that we get to see so much of her life
like inside and outside of the morg and I think she has so much agency outside of the morg as well. So that's why like
her character has really always been my number one girl cuz I just really think she's such a badass in and outside of
what she does. Oh, well, listen. If we if we did a laundry list of how many people she's had to kill,
>> how many times someone's tried to kill her. >> Yeah. >> Um I don't think there's any human on
the planet that's had so many near misses or so many dramatic moments as got Dr. Scarpetta. But considering she's
been out there for 35 years, I don't if she wants to carry her gun in her bulletproof Kevlar briefcase that Lucy
gave her that, by the way, is also fireproof and can sustain a microwave weapon. True story.
thing. I mean, I have I have one in under my shelf over here. I love that. >> So, cuz when when I write about
something like that, then Stacy decides my partner decides that I should have a Kevlar briefcase, too. And I'm thinking,
but where might I carry that? >> I love that. >> Everywhere. >> I love that she's like your Santa. She's
like, well, you need one, too. >> I order strange things. If I have the characters wearing a gas mask, then I've
got to know what it feels like to put one of those on. And so I order stuff and then end up giving it away to
somebody who would want such a strange thing. Um, so you're very tactile. >> Well, I if I believe it, then you'll
believe it. If I don't believe what I'm if I don't believe what I'm saying because I really don't know the answer,
then then I just can't write about it with authority. So I try to I mean a lot of things you can just you can imagine.
You can fill in the blanks. You don't have to try everything and certainly don't try, you know, being a serial
killer. Don't do that. >> Yeah. Don't try. Great advice. >> Great advice. >> If you take one thing away,
>> but I think there's there's never a substitution for witnessing something for yourself if you can.
>> Yeah. >> Because you you will learn something. You will be surprised by a detail you
will never ever imagine. Um >> I I remember the first time I I stood out on a launch pad for, you know, at a
a NASA site on Wallops Island in V in in Virginia where they they rock fire rockets off all the time. And I was
taken out to this launchpad and it was very windy. It's right on the ocean. It's this stark barren landscape with
all the scaffolding. And I'm looking at it and and I've seen pictures. I know what it looks like. But
what I never knew is when the wind was blowing through the scaffolding, it created this eerie music,
>> which is eerie. And it was like space music. And I'm standing there and I'm thinking, am I the only one hearing this
right now? And you never would have known that. >> Yeah. No, >> but it's just you get you get surprised.
And if you go to the if you see cases that come into the medical examiner's office, the poignency of like people,
and I'm so sorry to say it, but people who have a baby die >> and then it's brought in and it's in the
bassinet >> and that just goes right through you when you see that >> and or you find I'll never forget that
this was a true case, a real case in my early days at at the morg where this woman had gone out to a bar and she's
walking home along a highway around 3:00 in the morning. Um, you know, drunk and
she gets hit by a car and she ends up in our office. She's on the table the next
morning. And so the she the state trooper is going through her stuff and he pulls the little slip of paper from a
fortune cookie out of her wallet that clearly meant so much to her that she saved it.
>> Wow. And it said, "You will soon have an encounter that will change the course of
your life." >> Wow. I just got goosebumps. >> Little did she know that that encounter
was a car on a dark highway. >> Yes. >> And I'll never forget the look on the state trooper's face. He didn't know
whether to laugh or to cry for a minute. >> Wow. That's true. >> It's so bizarre. Like, what are the
odds? >> Or the goofy teenage boy who thinks it's cool. He's trying to impress some girl.
He's like 13 or 14 and this country boy standing up in the back of a pickup truck.
>> And the they went under an overpass and he hit his head. >> Oh. >> He comes in and and in his pocket is a
dented can of Old Spice deodorant. >> Oh man. >> And you can imagine that he is trying to
smell nice for these girls he's trying to impress that he's showing off for and that's the last moment of his life. And
these are the sort of things that it's very they're so important for me to remember and to witness and
>> because if you don't put the humanity into all this, we can joke all we want about morbidity, but if you don't really
tell it in the lap of life going on and those and the pain and the reality of all this, if you don't recognize it at
some level, then you it's really not worth telling the story. And nobody should want to read it either.
>> No, it's so true. And it all of that really reminds me of like, you know, the
nail polish that I would see on people and be like that you just painted your nails and like had no idea what was
going to come next and that that was it forever. It's like those little things were the things that shocked me about my
first few autopsies was how they like affected me. It's very true. I mean, one of the I I uh did a show that had to do
with Princess Diana's death. This was about 20 years ago, a little over 20 years ago. And I one of the people I
interviewed was the the assistant, the pathology assistant who was there for her autopsy.
>> Oh wow. >> And the the the thing that I remembered so vividly is that she he said she had
on turquoise toenail polish. >> Oh. And it's just like that little thing. And I, you know, I know
everything else that he said, you know, about what he found and some of the injuries and all that, but the two
things that struck me the most were the the turquoise toenail polish that she had on that that she put on right before
I guess she'd gone to the Ritz or whatever in Paris. Um, and that I was told by somebody who saw her body that a
lot of her fingers were broken. >> Oh, wow. And I can't vouch for that myself, but but I suspect it's true
because she and Dodie Aliad were not they weren't wearing seat belts in the back of that car. And here's one of the
main reasons you would wonder if it's really a conspiracy their deaths is if they'd had their seat belts on, they
might not have died. >> Yeah. >> But they didn't. So when you bam hit that cement piling in that tunnel, she
you're going to go forward and same thing happens in plane crashes and people break their fingers from trying
to it's a it's a ref. Yeah. That's like the first thing you do. >> But it's so and and it's those details
that humanize and then you see this poor person um she might have been one of the
most famous women in the world but it's the poignency of those human details that grab us. Yeah.
>> Not so much how much their heart weighed. Who cares, right? >> It's like she's a mom, she's a friend,
she's, you know, she's a woman, she's just she's more than what she is on the table. That was always the thing that we
were always trying to maintain >> was this is more than just a body on the table. This is somebody somebody.
>> Well, here's the thing. If you don't see it as more than just a body on the table, you may miss a very important
clue. >> That's that you shouldn't be in that morg if you don't. I mean really truly
because you know for example I remember this early case of a of a terrible sexual homicide. This young
woman comes home and the the guy's hiding in her closet because he had a key. He's a maintenance worker and she I
mean it wasn't solved for a long time but it's a horrible case. >> That's horrifying.
>> Um >> and we she he was with her all night long and she died about 6:00 the next
morning and when her body came to the office we took it in the X-ray room. This was in the early days when we were
just starting to use lasers you to look for trace evidence on the body because some things will light up and you find
them. And so this was a new thing and we were in there using the laser going over
her whole body looking for any evidence. And it was remarkably clean and the thing that I noticed is that that her
legs were were so cleanly shaven that either they'd been waxed or she just shaved them. And so I'm thinking, well,
she she'd been out all day. She came home late at night. She didn't die until the next morning. Um, she shouldn't look
this smooth. >> No. >> And so I thought, I guarantee you this guy made her take a bath.
>> And Yeah. And and and I guarantee that he made her shave her legs, you know, and maybe because that was part of his
ritual and part of the control that he was exerting over her. But if you're not really looking at that person,
>> you're not going to start thinking things like that and wondering, >> you're not getting into them and trying
to channel what might have happened to them. Exactly. And we owe them that. >> As painful as that is, we owe them our
most sincere and devoted attention. Yeah. At that last moment, I mean, God knows what they've been through. If we
don't, if they don't talk to us and we don't listen, then nobody's going to. >> So true. So true. Is there a book that
you've read recently that just like blew your mind? >> This is a book I keep on my desk that
blows my mind and I highly recommend it. It's called The Creative Act. >> Oo, speaking being by Rick Rubin, and
it's all about creativity and these little quotes and stuff like it's not unusual for science to catch up with art
eventually. >> Oh, look at that. It's unusual for art to catch up to the spiritual, but there
but there's all stuff all kinds of things in here that if you are a creative, no matter what kind of
creative, writer, artist, scientist, podcaster, um that it it it writes your perspective
of of the creative process and of the things to be mindful of to make it work for you better.
>> That's so cool. >> And and the biggest thing it teaches you is to let go. Don't try to force things.
I love that. Which I think we all need. >> Yeah, that's great advice. >> Yes, everybody needs that.
>> But I you should order this. I just I keep it on my desk. >> What was that called again? I'm going to
write it down. >> The the creative act, a way of being by Rick Rubin, who's a music producer.
>> All right. Yeah, I want to order that. >> Yeah, but look, I mean, I'm telling you
that it's something that you will keep around. I mean, I like to read things there. There are novels that I'll look
at because the writing is so amazing, like Chris Whitaker. Oh yeah. >> All the colors of the dark.
>> And he is really such a talented, brilliant writer. And I like to look at what he does with words and how he sets
the scene. He's a young guy. I'm I'm still learning, you know, from people. I um I have I look I have a Hemingway
novel that I've been >> rereading for decades called The Garden of Eden. >> Oh, yeah. And it's it was published
postumously and it's not the it's not the best example of his work but it's fascinating because the main character
is a novelist >> and it's and you know it's really Hemingway's you know alter ego but he
describes what it's like to get up in the morning and walk and feel the cold stone under his bare feet as he's
walking down to the end of this hotel hallway where he is writing in his room and looking out at the ocean and all
these things and and he laments about how writing makes him selfish and he knows he he's selfish because and and
anybody hello if you're and if this is what you're doing you kind of cut off you cut out everybody while you're doing
it >> and those who live with us have to know that if we don't do that we won't get it
done exactly >> but it does but I I I was so grateful and continue to be in addition to some
of the amazing ways Hemingway describes things but It's it's nice to read something that you that you relate to.
>> Oh yeah. >> That you go I know exactly what he's feeling. I feel the same thing. I may
not be Hemingway, but I know what he's feeling. >> Yeah. That makes you feel seen for sure.
>> And honestly, that's what a lot of your books did for me when I started working
in the morg. It was like, "Oh, I get this. I know that smell. Like, I know how she's feeling here. I know the
frustration in this point." And I find myself now still loving that kind of thing, but also loving to read books
about writers where a writer is a main character because I'm like, "Yep, I know that frustration now." So, it is it's so
true. When you can relate, it's just such a richer story. I feel like >> Yes, I I I agree. Well, you know, I I
feel like that's really why we we are storytellers. We want people to gather around and to make them feel included
and to share an adventure with them. Yeah. It's it's not supposed to be this isolative experience where, oh, look at
what I did now. Tell me how good I am. No. >> In fact, if you really do a good job as
a writer, people shouldn't be all that conscious of your writing. What they should see is what you're showing them.
>> Yes. >> You know, they should woof, you know, that scene. You're taking them on a
journey. It's not a book. It's a plane ticket. It's a ticket to ride. It's a it's a it's a voyage. We want to take
places that you know that you're you're medical examiner in mind. We want them to take people places that they don't
usually get to go. >> And medical examiner facilities are really that way more than they used to be
because ever since CO in particular, many of these places are very closed. They don't want anybody coming in.
They're they're worried about >> leaks. They're worried about diseases. They're worried about lawsuits. They're
worried about everything. >> Oh yeah. Co was a wild time in the morg. I was working in the morg during co. It
was a >> it was a sight to see when would come home. >> Yeah. We had different you know the
protocols for that went crazy. I mean it needed to >> but it was in particular doing neuro
cases doing a brain cutting. We had to like build a box over the person's head and then use our arms in like full, you
know, gear to do it. >> That's exactly what the If you go to Johnson Space Center and you want to
touch a moon rock, they're put in this tank. I think it's filled with nitrogen and they have the gloves built in and
you have to manipulate it with the it's called glove. Yeah, >> that's what we did with the brain
cutting that. So you just you became an astronaut. You didn't know. >> Look at that. I didn't even know it.
>> So there you go. >> Look at me. I can add it to my resume. >> You're doing all kinds of things.
>> Well, you know that's an interesting thing that you could describe because we
hope that CO doesn't come back. But you could have you could have anything that is hazardous.
>> Yeah. >> Toxic possibility. radiation, poisons, anything where you have to implement
those kind of protocols. And the nice thing is you know exactly how it works. >> Oh yeah,
>> it was it's so true. I could describe that to a tea. >> You could come up with almost anything
where you I mean you could have a big piece of the International Space Station that crashes down to Earth with somebody
that didn't make it and you can't treat that like normal veins because of where it's been.
>> Yeah. And when the flying saucer shows up, you know, with one of those little
gray people in it, you have to take all kinds of precautions. >> All the same precautions.
>> But we hope that those are the visitors don't die. We don't want them in the morg.
>> Yeah. We don't want that. >> We want to hang with them. >> Yeah. >> Exactly. We want to hang with them.
>> Yeah. Find out about them. >> Well, Patricia, thank you so much for joining us. This has been so much fun.
>> Well, you're very welcome. It has been fun to talk to both of you with everything. Thank you.
>> Thank you so much. And also, just so you know, you're in the acknowledgements of
my first book. >> Oh, >> we'll have to send it to you. You should. >> Yeah. >> Well, I think your character needs to
occasionally give Scarpetta a call. Just prepare notes. >> Oh my god. There you go.
>> The dream. >> I I don't I'm just telling you they know each other. Are you aware?
>> I feel like they do. >> I think they do. I think that they are friends and they didn't tell us, but I
She didn't tell me much. She doesn't think I exist. But what I'm telling you is h you know, I bet that they're
buddies. I think I bet. You know what? I bet they hang out with Dexter. Both of them do.
>> Oh, 100%. That's real now. That's canon. >> I love it. Well, everybody check out the
latest installment to Patricia's work, Sharp Force, which comes out tomorrow if you're listening to this right away.
>> It's so good. >> October 7th. And we also can't wait to tune in to Scarpetta next spring. Huge
congratulations to you and thank you again. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much. Take care. You
welcome back anytime. >> Yeah, please come back. We will. >> Yeah, definitely. All right, we'll see
you then. >> All right, >> thank you. >> Bye. >> How [ __ ] cool was that, guys?
>> That was so That was so fun. >> It was awesome. That >> You're geeking >> when she said when she told me that K.
Scarpetta and Ren Mueller would be friends. >> Yeah, that's that was next level [ __ ]
>> I'll even I was just like, "Oh my god." >> Yeah. I'm not even here anymore. >> No, Elena has passed away.
>> I'm I've shuffled off. I I have danced off this mortal coil after that. >> Did a little jig off this mortal coil.
>> [ __ ] awesome. We hope you guys dug that as much as we did. >> Also, we are going to bring back the
morbid book club. We've decided >> remember we have a we have a bonus episode to play around with so we can
make it whatever the [ __ ] we want. >> Yeah, Patricia inspired us. I haven't read any of the Scarpetta series and now
I want to. >> You'll love her. >> So, in the next couple of months, we're going to start with it's postmortem.
>> Postmortem is her first book in the series. >> All right. So, our bonus episode in a
couple months, we'll be going over postmortem. So, everybody start reading if you haven't yet.
>> Yeah, I figure we'll we'll sprinkle in the book club here and there on a bonus
episode. So, >> it's we're going to make those fun. You know, they can be all kinds of things.
So, if you guys want to get with us on the postmortem thing so we can talk about it and go through it. So, you can
listen to it, you can read it, you have a couple months to catch up on it. We'll
let you know when it's coming. Also, how [ __ ] awesome is Patricia's voice? >> Great voice.
>> She is literally Clarice Starling. >> Elena said it to me before we started the interview and I was like, "Oh." As
soon as it start as soon as she started talking, I was like, "Oh, wow." Yeah. I was like, "She created one of my
favorite characters and she sounds like one of my favorite characters." >> She is my favorite character.
>> Like, damn, Patricia. >> I love it. >> Yeah, that was that was phenomenal. So,
>> check out Patricia's all of Patricia's stuff. We got Sarapetta coming. We got
um >> Sharp Force >> Sharp Force coming and in a couple months we'll have postmortem.
>> Go take it back to the beginning. >> So we hope you keep listening >> and we hope you
>> keep it but not so weird that you don't join us for our book club and check out all of
Patricia's things >> because it's so good. >> Everything is so fun thrillers. [Music]
[Music] [Music]

Weirdos! Today we are joined by legendary crime novelist Patricia Cornwell, the mastermind behind the Kay Scarpetta series and one of the pioneers of the forensic thriller genre! Whether you’re a longtime Scarpetta stan or newly forensic-curious, this episode is packed with morbid stories, writing wisdom, and bone-deep passion for the truth!

Looking to Preorder SHARP FORCE, the 29th installment of the Scarpetta series? Click HERE or find it at your favorite bookseller on 10/7/25!

Would you like a sneak peak to the Scarpetta Television show? Click Here!

Want to read A Creative Act: A Way of Being by Rick Ruben? Find it here!

Join us for our NEXT Morbid Bookclub by starting the first Scarpetta book, Post Mortem! Find it here!

Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Listener Tale Theme Music licensed from @ Main Theme: Matti Paalanen — Trick or Treat — Provided by Jamendo Ad Music: Title: Artist: BlueJay Studio — Spooky Waltz — Provided by Jamendo

Brief Summary

Patricia Cornwell discusses her writing journey, Scarpetta series, and new book Sharp Force in an engaging interview with the hosts.

Key points

Elena's Longtime Admiration. Elena reveals her lifelong passion for Patricia Cornwell's books and her influence on her.
Interview with Patricia Cornwell. A fascinating conversation with bestselling author Patricia Cornwell about her career and inspirations.
Empathy in Autopsy. A discussion on the importance of empathy when dealing with the deceased.
Creepy Holograms. Exploring the unsettling idea of holograms creating ghostly images.
Scarpetta's Evolution. How Scarpetta remains relevant in a rapidly changing world.
Graphic Writing Experiences. The author shares her intense experiences while writing graphic scenes.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

We became best friends during this interview. We're besties for life. Me and Patricia.

Elena humorously reflecting on her connection with Patricia Cornwell.

3:43WatchOct 10, 2025

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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