Episode 800: Morbid Book Club - Victorian Psycho by Virginia Feito | Forensic Files

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or head to ashley.com to find your style. All right, brothers. We're going to get
into the actual intro. But first, Big Red has something to tell you. >> I do have something to tell you. Today,
we have somebody very special on the pod in the pod lab. The second pod lab. >> Ashkell's pod lab.
>> Ashkell's pod lab. >> Welcome to the pod lab. It's still a little bit under construction, but we're
working on it. We have Whoa, thanks Mikey. >> That was badass. >> We have Paul Tremble on the pod today.
Uh Paul is the critically acclaimed New York Times best-selling author of Head Full of Ghosts, The Pallbearers Club, uh
Cabin at the End of the World, and actually that one had has already been adapted to a film. It's Knock at the
Cabin, I believe it's called. Um so go check that out. and C Headful of Ghosts is going to be adapted to a movie. So
cool. >> Wait for that. >> Um his newest release right here, Dead But Dreaming of Electric Sheep, which is
an amazing title. It's coming out June 30th. That's wherever you can find books. Um we have actually already
recorded with Paul and had a [ __ ] fantastic time. So nice. He's phenomenal. His books are phenomenal and
I urge you to go check them out and we're really excited for you to see our conversation with him.
>> Woo. Before we get into the episode, we do just have to thank our sponsor one
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episode and for sending us this really cool furniture >> cuz it's sick. >> And without further ado, let's get into
it. Yeah. Hey, I'm Ash. I'm Elena. And I'm Grady Hendris. No, wait. I'm Paul. >> We said Paul, you can be whoever you
want to be today. And he chose Grady Hendris. >> Oh, yes. This is Morbid. >> This is a very special Morbid. We have
an amaz We already introduced him, but I'm going to introduce him again. This is Paul Trembley. If you don't know him,
go figure it out because he there's a body of work that you need to get into right now.
>> He's an amazing writer and you're missing out if you haven't read his books. >> So, get to it. And also there's several
adaptations that have been happening lately. >> Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. The most
recent would be a Headful Ghost wrapped filming >> uh in the Dublin area, >> which is where actually Victorian uh
Psycho was filmed in Ireland as well. So >> Oh, that's cool. >> Virginia and I talked a little bit about
uh but anyway, yeah, Rapton's probably be out in a year from now. And >> yeah, super excited.
>> I'm really excited for that. That's actually one of my favorite of your books.
>> Thank you so much. >> Very excited about that. It's going to be a scary movie.
>> I love that. >> They didn't pull any punches. So, the directors, it was weird. We were
talking, my wife and I, on the way over. The director is our Austrian niece and nephew. Like, like it's kind of funny
that >> Oh my god, that's so cool. >> Oh, that is funny. Like us. Like us >> or aunt, I should say, aunt nephew.
Yeah. >> Yeah. There you go. Right. >> Cool. >> That's so cool. That's rad. I love that.
>> Um, well, that we mentioned Victorian Psycho. >> Yes. >> That's what we're gonna be talking about
today. >> Yes. Um, this was actually your pick which we were very excited and at first
I had heard about this book. It's by Virginia Fetto, excuse me. And I've heard about this book everywhere. Like
I'm on TikTok like book talk loves it. I've heard about so many people have told me you have to read this book
>> and it's been on my TBR forever. So when you mentioned it I was like well perfect
time. >> Great. >> I ate this book up in one day. Like one day >> literally just ate it up. It's so easy
to read. It is such a good book. I think it's so unique. >> I feel like I've never read anything
quite like this, you know? >> Truly. >> Yeah. >> And we're going to get really into it in
a minute. But first, I want to talk to you about you. >> Okay. >> Cuz you guys got to know who Paul is.
>> I'm not Victorian. >> You're not Victorian. Not >> a psycho. >> Yeah. Only when I don't
>> to be determined. >> We'll figure it out through this. Uh, so we were actually just talking about
this. Congrats on finally becoming a full-time writer. >> Thank you. That's incredible.
>> I appreciate that. Yeah, it's a little weird, a little daunting. Uh, yeah, I've
been a high school math teacher for 30 years and people usually react more in horror to that than they do to horror
writing. >> I was going to say that's horror to me to be honest. >> No, I I totally get it. Um, you know, at
a small school local to here and they were always super supportive and let me be the weirdo writing agnostic math
teacher in a Catholic boy school. >> Oh, hell yeah. That's badass. >> That's awesome, though. That's a story
in and of itself that you need to write a thing. >> Very thankful. They're never, you know,
if I missed a day or two to go to like a festival or something, they were great.
>> Oh, that's so cool. That's so rare. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I can see why you stayed there for
so long. >> No, it was like I mean, my artistic writerly safety net. I mean, maybe
similar to you, like you were just telling me how you kept your job for a long time. I mean, it was it was just
nice to know, hey, I had this job that sometimes paid our shitty health insurance and then, you know, I could
write a book and if it was weird, that's okay. if I needed to say no, I could because I didn't have to like do what
the publisher said or what people expected. >> I know. I And I think that actually
makes it better. I feel like you probably were a little able to be more free and creative with that when you
have that safety net because when it's all on you, it's like like this has to work. It has to be what everyone likes.
>> No, 100%. Um always admire friends who make a go of it, >> you know, full-time and that's how
they've been supporting their family for years. I mean, that's a pressure that I'll have to figure out. My kids are
older now, so they're on their own. So, whatever. So, who cares? >> Well, you're definitely like the most
successful like part-time writer I've ever seen. Like, that's crazy. When I saw I think I saw you post about it and
I was like, >> "Wait a minute." I was like, "He's not full-time doing this. What the hell?"
>> Uh, but you you seem to have come to the full-time side of writing at the right
time because I feel like horror is having kind of like a cultural renaissance right now.
even like with movies and stuff like weapons sinners obsession. >> Why do you think that's happening right
now? >> Yeah, I mean that's hard to answer. Uh >> um I'm not sure. I mean I think some of
it was funny. Let me back up. So A Headful of Ghosts was the book that sort of made me like that that broke out. Um
and we were when we were trying to sell that in early 2014, a lot of publishers were like, "Ah, but it's horror." And
like it was we eventually did get a it published which was amazing but just it's not that long ago like now like 11
12 years later it's like >> you know >> that people are like >> publishers weekly reports and like oh
the sale like the the publisher acquisition of horror novels is up 25% from last year which was up 25% from the
year before and it's just you know the worst case scenario person in me that you know powers my books is like oh no
it's going to be a bubble that pops. >> Yep. like that's nerve-wracking, >> but no, I mean, I think it's a healthy
place. We're finally getting to see it's not just, you know, authors who look uh,
you know, white white straight authors who look like me and Grady. It's, >> you know, we're getting to see way more
own voices and, you know, to me that's like one of the most exciting parts about what we're seeing both in film and
and in publishing. >> Oh, yeah. I agree. I think it's like different point of views coming into it.
I think finally people are being open to that which is nice and I love it. I love
seeing that and I love seeing them like win awards. I love all of like seeing this happen. I'm like
>> it's time. It's our time. No, I mean I think the other part of is I think you
know well I mean I'll talk about Gen X a little bit like I mean so many of us grew up reading Stephen King and
watching the movies and then >> you know the later half of the previous decade you know so many of us were now
publishing books like >> you know the children if not of Stephen King but of of that time period and
right >> yeah like I said there's less of there's still a stigma with horror which I hope
never leaves frankly I mean I always want horror >> horror should be poking and proddding at
uncomfortable things and on the boundaries so I hope it doesn't lose that um yeah so I think honestly get out
has a lot to do with it like when that came out like that was the first time >> broader culture especially academia and
mainstream reviewers were like oh there were there were I remember literal articles in New York Times like do we
need to take horror seriously because of that movie did change the landscape a little
>> that movie is flawless to me flawless I love that movie >> so good >> now do you remember the exact moment
that you realized that you wanted to write horror. >> Oh jeez, no. >> It's a tough one.
>> No, it's it's hard to explain how I got there. I mean, I'm a lifelong scaredy-cat for one. So, I've always had
like a love terrified relationship with horror. >> That's how I feel. >> Uh yeah, still like if I'm alone in the
house, I'm not above sleeping with like a desk lamp on. Same >> or, you know, noise machines and still
go up the basement steps too quick just because I'm ridiculous. >> Um but I mean, I wasn't even like a huge
reader as a kid. like I was just sort of like a nerdy math person, you know, loved the Celtics, you know, grew up
around here. >> Um, and it wasn't until college where I met my wife, Lisa, uh, she bought me
right after I graduated, two things happened. My last, and I hope this is too boring, you can cut it.
>> Uh, I had to take a a English requirement. I was in a freshman English class second semester senior year. It
blew my mind. I had like the stereotype experience. And okay, >> the teacher was a big punk music fan and
I was too. So we connected. But anyway, one of the stories I read in that class was Joyce Carolotes's Where Are You
Going? Where have you been >> and I remember reading it and I actually said aloud. I was like, I didn't know
people wrote things like this. >> I love that. >> And shortly after that, Lisa bought me
The Stand after graduation and I hailed that. When I went off to grad school for
two years and struggled by the skin of my teeth to get a master's degree, that's when I was reading everything
Stephen King wrote and yep, >> from Dance Macob, I branched out to like Peter Stro and Clive Barker and Shirley
Jackson. And then >> two years after that, I got my first teaching job and I had the weird itch to
try writing a story. Inexplicable. Like why would I try writing a story? Like I'm a math teacher.
>> I love that though. That's so cool. >> That's how I felt too when I first started writing like the my first book.
I was like I don't know how to write a story. Like I was like I can't write a whole book. like what am I doing?
>> I imagine everybody feels that way when they >> I feel like everyone has to feel that
way, you know, in the beginning being like I'm not going to get to the end of this. Like
>> yeah, >> this isn't going to be something someone reads, >> right? Like I'm terrible at writing
advice, so I don't give it. The only thing I tell, especially to to younger people, it's like, hey, you know,
hopefully you come to this realization a lot earlier than I did, but hopefully, >> you know, you come to the realization
that it's okay to like things. It's getting harder and harder to do that with, you know,
>> obviously with just, you know, social media life and everyone hates everything.
>> You know, it's okay to like things. That means it's okay to be passionate about
it and maybe want to try it yourself. And I mean, that's such an important. >> It has to be your first step.
>> Yes. I I'm so I'm so glad you said that cuz I'm constantly trying to tell my kids that. I'm like, I want to tell you
now when you're young, like you can be passionately excited about things >> and not feel weird about it. Like don't
make people feel like make you feel like you can't be all in on something and want to do it or want to experience it
or want to learn everything you can about it. Like I feel like we have got to a place now where like
the same >> and everything's cringe and it's like that's so cringey that you're into. It's
like stop. I hate that. >> Unless they like Grady Henrik's books then we should really stop.
>> I love Grady. >> Grady's a friend. I just like making fun of him. >> We love Grady. We had him on and we had
the most fun with him. He's great. >> That was a fun episode. >> He is so much fun.
>> He's so funny. He was really fun with the would you rather. So >> now y >> and actually like this kind of leads
into my what I wanted to talk about next. So speaking of like a love of writing and getting passionate about
things, AI. >> Yeah. >> I have to rant with you about it because I think we feel the exact same way about
it. >> Oh yeah. I it's upsetting me so much that because like books like this like
Victorian Psycho aren't gonna happen no with AI and it's making me crazy that it's become a thing and I feel like you
need to go through the whole like being inspired to write something coming up with the idea like working through it at
some point like reading your own writing and being like oh my god I'm a genius and then the next day reading it and
being like I'm a hack and I should never do this and then fighting through that feeling and coming out on the other side
like you need to have that full experience >> and I feel like all of a sudden we're
going to get these books that don't have that behind it and I feel like you need
that injected into the book for it to be >> yeah no interest in reading it. I mean
the whole the whole idea to me is reading something or watching a movie or any other piece of art.
>> What the connection is oh this person felt like I did. It feels like I do too
and there there will never be any of that. >> No, >> you know with AI never mind that they
steal our books. >> Exactly. you know, give, you know, uh, and I was a part of the first lawsuit
suing OpenAI on behalf of writers. >> I love that >> for two years. >> It's myself, other horror leading the
way. Uh, Christopher Golden, another horror writer, >> and uh, Richard Cadre, and also weirdly,
well, not weirdly, but like not horror writer, but Sarah Silverman. >> We were the first four and spent two
years as a part of it. >> Um, they there's so many lawsuits, they consolidated all into one. So then like
I didn't continue because they also chose different lawyers. It was weird. But yeah, no, I mean,
>> yeah, I'm sorry if it makes people uncomfortable, but like you're not a writer or a visual artist if you're
using it. You're a scab to use like >> we don't have a union, but I'm going to use union terms. You're a scab.
>> Exactly. >> U Yeah. >> It's stolen work. >> Yeah. It just at the end of the day
>> makes me crazy. And there's just no humanity behind it. Like AI can't come up. I mean, you see you can always see
it in like metaphors and stuff that you'll see written by AI. You're like, that doesn't even make sense. like you
cuz you don't have the capacity as a computer to compare two things like you just don't like it doesn't make any
sense. >> It's I mean in one way it's like it's helped crystallize like why I'm you know
still passionate about reading and you know watching movies and you know and viewing art but you know it's the
connection components. It's like I don't why do we have to defend this or >> Yeah.
>> or explain why that this is important. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. And it makes it so you have a book
coming out on June 30th and it's Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep. I love that title first of all.
>> Such a good title. >> Such a good title and it has some like AI components in it like in the story.
It's about that. The the plot seems so interesting to me. Can you tell us a little bit about it?
>> Yeah, sure. Um I'm bad at the the quick pitch. >> I'm terrible at it, so don't worry. I
think that's like a thing across the board. >> Now that we have that out of the way.
Yeah. So, uh, you know, the main conceit is that there's someone who's like my age and build working for, well, not
Google because I didn't want to get sued. Uh, I think I called them Sicilian, a giant tech company in the in
the Silicon Valley. >> Okay. >> He's working on campus in the mail room and he doesn't drop dead, but he has a
massive stroke. Uh, where, you know, he can breathe and his heart's beating, but
he's not, you know, there's no consciousness. He's in a vegetative state, so they say. He signed his body
directly to over to the company though prior to this happening. And so as one does.
>> Yeah, as one does. And they they implant AI and nano bots into his brain so someone can remote control them like
they're playing a video game. So most of that >> So most of that happens off off page.
The semi-aranged 24year-old daughter of the CFO, she was an ex-professional gamer is hired to
basically weekend a Bernie Zim across the country. Oh my god. >> So, I I'm hopeful like I hope that a big
chunk of this book, maybe the first twothirds of her her chapters, Julia's chapters, is definitely satire and
hopefully very funny. >> Yeah. >> Um even though it's, you know, ultimately a serious thing. The
>> So, the book is split between her chapters and chapters that are titled you, which is from the point of view of
the man with the tech in his head. So, he he is still conscious because of what they've put in his head. He's going
through like a fantasmic oracle hellscape. Uh, and then the two sort the two narratives sort of link up at the
end and everyone's happy and hugs and cool. >> I love the dual POV. That >> That's going to be good. I'm really
>> Yeah, I love a a dual pu of POV. That's really cool. >> And to think about just like being
unconscious but conscious at the same time. That's That's wild. >> That's honestly my worst nightmare.
>> Definitely very horrific. >> Yeah. Very Black Mirror. >> And the control aspect of it is my
literal worst nightmare. I am the biggest control freak in the world. the idea of somebody controlling me when I
can't, >> right? >> Yeah. No, >> one of my one of my fears writing the book was even though the premise seems
absurd, I was like, man, I got to get this done before it can actually happen. 14 weeks ago, there was a story where
some company has brains and jars like some companies do apparently like like Futurama, right?
>> And they were testing e either both pain medication or uh addiction to drugs,
testing the brains. And one of the the the spokespersons said, "Oh, you know, the wiring is almost
>> taken out of what it would take for them to be conscious." Almost >> I hate that.
>> You're like speedrunning. >> You get it into your editor, you're like, "Please hurry."
>> Oh my god. >> Oh, I hate that. >> I want to go back to something that you said earlier because I related to that
so much. I'm such a horror fan, but I'm also such a Freddy cat. And you said the
same thing. I wonder, do you have any fears that you've never explored in your writing that you would eventually want
to someday? Um, that's a great question. No one I don't think no one's ever asked it in that
way. Um, >> all right. Look at that. >> I mean, there's some fears that I won't write about just because it's too scary
for me and and being just a child teen of the 80s, like nuclear war stuff. Really, anything that brushes up against
that is too much for me. So, that's how I feel, too. I don't write about it. Avoid So, I won't watch Oenheimer.
>> Yep. >> Um, I'm sure it's a good movie. >> End of the World stuff to me is like too
real. >> Yeah. Um, I don't know. I mean, I I use so much of my own life, much of
the sugar in my family in my books. Um, you know, it's hard to say what's coming
next. And I and I wish I was someone who had like a >> a bullpen of of ideas. And for novels, I
just go from novel and then I'm like, "Oh, no. What am I going to do now?" Start and just try to start from scratch
and hopefully there's some inspiration. So, >> all right. That's so >> like I don't know. I can't say like,
"Oh, I definitely want to try this or that." It's like I don't know. Like I'm just totally focused on the thing I'm
working on. >> Yeah, that makes sense. You got to see it through. >> Yeah, >> I get that. I have the weirdest notes in
my note app of like ideas, but they're like that. >> They're like sometimes I'll look at them
and I'm like, I don't know what I meant with this. Like I I will never go back to that.
>> You also have the weirdest dreams that I feel like like nightmares I should say.
I feel like so many of your ideas come from a little blip in your dream. >> Yeah. or my kids weirdly will where like
they'll tell me a little bit of a like nightmare or something that they're scared of
>> and I'm like can I use that? Like is that cool if I put that in the >> Are you even ask them permission?
>> Yeah. I'm like is it I know I should just take I'm like I made you >> my poor children. My poor children.
>> Yeah. >> I've done uh taken things >> without permission. >> Including a head full of ghosts. I
scarred my wife Lisa with it because young Mary the 8-year-old character was definitely our daughter Emma when she
was 8 years old. of her personality. >> Yeah, >> that's so cool. >> I mean, hey, you have to write what you
know, right? You do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I think my youngest had uh an imaginary friend. We Well, Skeleton was
one, but he's not going to be in a in a in a book. >> The Mister, >> but the mister, and she named him the
mister, which I was once told us he'll always find you. >> Yeah. >> So, like she literally on a cover.
>> She said, "Don't worry, the mister will always find you." Like I think it was
cuz they were playing hideand-seek, her and my husband, and they were like hiding under a blanket. And he was like,
"Who are we hiding from?" Like, "Who's fighting?" And she was like, "The mister." And he was like, "I'm sorry,
what?" And she was like, "Don't worry, he'll always find us." And he was like, >> "I hate this thing."
>> What does that mean? >> That's terrifying. That's a great Baroque title. The mister will always
find you. >> The mister will always find you. >> I like it. >> Damn. >> Mine. Going back to scary memories or
anything like that, do you know or can you think of the first story that ever scared you so badly that it's still with
you to this day? Maybe you read it or you heard it. >> Oh yeah. So I mean for me it was all
movies. I mean I think I'm trying to think age-wise there was I mean >> in this when I say this area I don't
want to give away where you guys live but in the New England area I was I'm old enough that there was a program
called Creature Double Feature that played man this was like late 70s early 80s.
>> Okay. >> On Saturdays. Okay. So, they show two movies. The first movie was always like
Godzilla or Gameammer, a Kaiju movie. And that's what drew me in. Yeah. >> The second movie was a horror movie,
like a hammer horror movie or black and white. >> Love this. >> You know, some of the like just dumbest
horror movies that get that eventually were on Mystery Science Theater. >> Right. Oh, hell yeah.
>> Those gave me nightmares. I had a Attack of the Killer Shrew nightmares nightmares. I still remember. It's such
a bad movie. Um I had nightmares from the movie Alien before seeing it because I was listening to my parents and my
aunt talk about how scary the movie was. Oh my god, I love >> that. Used to happen to me when I was
little all the time. In fact, I remember you were there at one of my uncle's houses and all of you guys were talking
about it and I just heard like the tail end and like little bits of your conversation and I was afraid of
whatever it was. I didn't even know what it was, but I was really scared of it for like months.
>> Oh yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yep. >> But by far Jaws gave me the most nightmares by far.
>> Jaws is such a foray into horror, isn't it? >> Yeah. I really started at my high
school, which is weird when I was like in fifth grade. They were showing summer movies at the high school because they
had like an auditorium. >> Okay. >> And my dad took me and he he pitched the movie to me this way. He's like, "Oh,
there's a scene in this movie that captures of what it feels like to catch a fish. That moment right when you catch
it on the hook." >> You're like, "Awesome. I'm in." Watch that. >> I mean, yeah, that scene where Quint
catch, you know, hooks him. It's there, but like you could have told me some other things about that movie.
>> You left out a little different feeling. >> Yeah. So, like I It's one of my favorite
movies. I've seen it 50 times since, but I still cover my eyes when Quint gets Sorry for the spoiler, but when you when
Quint get bit when he gets bit in half, I broke my little 10-year-old brain. And
I'm not exaggerating. I had 10 years of shark nightmares after that movie. Oh, I
believe that. >> So, I've seen the movie. I've watched with my kids and we'll ceremoniously
>> put the pillow over our faces when the scene comes. I've seen way more gorier
stuff. I'm just like >> afraid that my brain will return to the 10-year-old brain.
>> It probably would. It could. It's a core memory. You know, >> your kids want to see Jaws so badly. So,
now we're going to rethink that one. >> And they're My oldests are 10. They're 10-year-old twins and they want to see
it so badly. So, I've been like easing them in by being like, here's a picture of Bruce the Shark as a robot. Like,
it's not real. I'm trying to be like, here's the behind the scenes of all of it. So, hopefully it'll help, but I'm
like, I don't know. >> You have a pool or friends with a pool and put the TV and then be on floats
while you're watching the movie. >> I want to do it so bad. >> That would be so good. We have the
projector, too. We do need to do that. >> You know, they're so brave. Like they're
so brave at first about horror things. They're like, I can do this. Let's do it. And
>> but then the night time to be brave during the day for sure. >> And we regret it immediately.
>> That's how I am still very brave during the day. Then at night, I'm like, this
is so scary. >> And I don't want to ruin horror for them. So, I'm trying to like ease it in.
I'm like, I don't want to >> give you trauma right off the bat. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Start with Gremlins. Have you seen Have they seen Gremlins? >> They haven't yet. We were just calling
them Gremlins. I was going to say I refer to them as gremlins a lot cuz at night time they always have like an
assortment of ailments and >> they're always nightmares and eating. I'm like I can't feed you after
midnight. Get you wet. >> Can't get them wet. >> Straight up precarious. >> I do wonder going back to your writing
process, what's the strangest place that you've gotten inspiration from a book that you can think of?
>> Um there was a moment of like panic when I was on a train in England. >> Okay. Uh, I was doing a an amazing book
tour over there for The Cabinet at the End of the World. >> Okay. >> And I knew the next book was due in less
than a year at this point >> and the novel I was imagining doing was going to take was going to be a big one
and it was going to take way longer than a year. I'm like, "Oh no, what am I going to do? I got to come up with an
idea." >> And I had this weird what if for a zombie that I don't want to say necessarily because it's spoils the
book. >> Okay. Um, so that was sort of like forced uh I guess forced inspiration
inspiration. >> The other way the other ways it's just fun like where it comes from and you
never know like my book horror movie came from friend and amazing writer. Sorry to name drop I've already
mentioned Grady but Stephen Graham Jones you know amazing guy >> right an amazing
>> hey you should watch this YouTube uh my friend Walter Cow is this you know great
uh critic and he hosts these matineese and then talks about the movie. So, basically, it was an hour of Walter and
writer and musician John Darnell talking about Texas Chainsaw Massacre, >> which was a movie that I didn't I wasn't
brave enough to watch until I was in my late 30s. >> I love that. >> But since I've seen it, I love that
movie. And then >> such a good one. >> Their discussion sent me into a rabbit hole that became horror movies. So, I
don't know. It's just you never know where it comes from and just try to be open to it.
>> Yeah. Nice. I'm actually I am in the middle of reading horror movie right now
and I love it. >> So, there's that. >> That's on my TBR list. You're you're coming up close. Coming up. Once you
read it, I'll just steal it from you. >> Yeah, here. I'll hand it over. >> Um, so, and going with the writing
process still, do you have do you start with an ending in mind or you do you just kind of like torture it out of your
characters and then see what happens? >> I like how you put that. Um, I typically
have some notion of the ending. Some Sometimes it's really foggy. Sometimes it can be this is the last line. I have
to earn my way there. Oh, I like that. So, I'd say most of the time it's obviously I have a beginning in a in a
vague or sometimes the end in mind and it's like the hard part is all the stuff in the middle there. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And you're kind of So, you're like kind of the king of ambiguous endings. I feel like that you
have to figure it out. You get to decide kind of. >> Yeah. I I guess I've done that a few
times. >> Yeah. That's fun. >> I don't know if you've heard that or not. >> But do you always know the true ending
or are you kind of feeling that way too? It depends on the I guess it depends on
the story. So, a head full of ghosts in my mind there's no true ending. And I think, you know, when I wrote it, I had
to purposefully divorce myself from thinking there was a true ending because I I thought
>> then >> a true like the true ending would have leaked through and I didn't want that.
Like I wanted Headful Ghosts if it was scary at all to be scary precisely because we didn't know
>> and have that, >> you know, to me that's just the scary part of life. Like you we have beliefs
and >> but ultimately we just don't know. And I think anytime you use ambiguity, it it
helps trigger that a little bit, which you know >> helps maybe scare people if if it works
that way. >> I like that. >> Um, you know, the cabinet at the end of the world, I way underestimated how many
people were going to be upset not knowing if the world was ending or not because to me it the story became not
about that. It became about the two the two the husbands and what they were going to decide. That to me that was the
story. >> But something like the Paul Bears Club, you know, it plays with ambiguity, but
yeah, I'm pretty sure she's a vampire in the end. If you don't want to believe she is, that's fine, too.
>> I would not, you know, I would definitely wouldn't want to like spoil someone's reading experience, but uh
>> but she's a vampire. >> I mean, that's fun. Who wouldn't want that ending? >> I think so, too.
>> Yeah, >> I like that. I think it I think it's more fun that way because it lets
somebody It like stays with someone longer when they have to sit there and think about it and wonder, go through
the different >> I hope it's never I never want it to be like a cheap like twist. you know,
twists are fun, but like I don't want that to be just like a gimmick. Like you don't want that to be like I you know,
even if you know anyone out there has read it and doesn't like it, just I don't know if this is assures you or
makes you feel better, but like I I thought hard about it's like if I'm going to do this, I know I'm asking a
lot to read 300 pages and then maybe having open-ended stuff, but >> I don't know. I try to write books that
I want to read and like I like I like having sort of the questions linger afterwards.
>> Yeah, I like that too. I think it's scarier like you said. Mhm. >> Um, one last question for you about your
writing process or just writing in general. If readers can take one thing away from your work beyond the scares,
what would you want that to be? >> Oh, wow. Uh, that's >> I know we're ending on a heavy question.
>> Oh, yeah. That's hard. Especially with the novels, what what I typically lean towards doing is I'm
trying to make it feel like as realistic as possible. This is what it would feel
like if there was a maybe demon possession or this would this is what it would look like. Okay.
>> Um, and maybe just hopefully people take away like the characters like there I
can really only think of prior to the novel that's coming out like one mustache twisting villain and all my
prior books in cabin you know there's one character who might be a villain but everyone else I want people to to again
some of the horror I think is these people are doing terrible things you I write them in such a way hopefully that
you still understand why they did it and maybe recognize like oh if not but for other circumstances in my own life and
the luck that I've had and the privilege that maybe that would be me, you know, and that's a scary sort of realization.
>> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, I mean, but you know, it depends on the story. I mean, these are
just the things that I write like in the book that's coming out, you know, the AI
in the book is definitely not to be ignored with at all in any way. Uh but yeah.
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>> All right, so let's talk about your book club pick, Victorian Psycho. Excellent.
Excellent pick. Top notch. >> Such a good pick. >> This book is little, but she is fierce.
>> She is >> to quote who is that? Is that Shakespeare? >> Sure. >> Mighty. I don't know. She's funny.
>> So, let's talk about moments that made us cringe throughout the book because I
I cringed throughout this entire thing. >> It was a lot of cringe. I tabbed the hell out of this one.
>> I could not stop. >> Also, can I just say like I love Wifred. She's awful, >> but she's hilarious and I was like
>> rooting for her in a weird way, >> you know? I was like, "Yeah, kill that family."
>> No. Like I was laughing and gasping. >> Yes. >> Less less cringy. Like I couldn't Yeah.
So, we're going to get spoilery. This is good. going to get spoilery. It'll be in
the notes, too, so you guys know we're going to be talking about the book. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, I was sent I was lucky to be sent like an arc uh and
I happen to have the time to, you know, to to to be able to read it and I was a little nervous going into it. Uh only
because like anytime like and I I know this from experience like using a title that references like a a famous work,
you know, we'll see. American Psycho, which I've read and actually, you know, even though it's pretty awful, you know,
I really do like that book. >> Um, so I was like, "All right, we'll see what happens." But man, she had me at
the end of the first chapter, >> uh, Mrs. Abel, Amuse, is a woman who has never held a penis. It was just the
timing of it. She was des she was describing, you know, like I'm so bad at remembering the the character names, but
describing the the woman who was in charge of like the house and everything. >> It's just like you were not expecting
that line. And there were so many lines that you were just not expecting. It was
just said so plainly. >> That's what I loved. She was just so funny. And like the little aides that
she would make to the reader were so funny. I felt like we were like friends throughout the reading process
>> cuz she would say something like like dear reader or something and I was like
I know girl. Like I was I was like we're in this together. >> Yeah. You're right.
>> Yeah. >> And I love that she had like the it was like the little aides that you didn't
see coming where she was like I teach them history and arithmetic and what corpses smell like and French. And I was
like wait what? Back up. Like that's part of it. And they're just sprinkled everywhere in this book.
>> I loved it. She surprised me everywhere. >> She did. >> Yeah. >> Um >> also like with the like cringey moments,
>> I felt like there was so many genuinely hilarious moments that I felt guilty laughing at at times.
>> Yes. Like um there was a point when she's this is awful but with like original baby when she's like
>> original baby and baby was killing me the entire time. >> And when she says I spit out the blood
and see as so often happens when one slits an infant's corateed artery that the baby is dead. I was like why is that
funny and awful? Like >> I was so nervous going into it because one of my friends read this before me
and she's like just so you know there's like kid death and like she kills babies
and I was like I don't know if I'm going to like that. And then she's like you know as so often happens when you kill a
baby and I was like why is that hilarious? >> Like no I don't know how that is. >> Yeah. I knew nothing going in that that
was so shocking. That was like a gasp. >> Yeah. And and again laugh despite yourself.
>> Yeah. I was like I shouldn't be laughing at this but this is hilarious. It's one
of the magic tricks of of of Winnie is and you know Virginia is manipulating the reader.
>> Like to, you know, to get you to be somewhat on her side. >> And I think people
>> based on what I see online have like false memories of this book because they
want to root for her and they assume, oh no, she's only killing >> bad people. Like, yeah, she's killing
the patriarchy and and she's killing like, you know, the rich people. She's kind of killing everybody. Like nobody
is nobody is spared. killer, >> which I really admired about her approach cuz it could have been like
>> I mean it makes us feel good but it could have been like ah like superhero like she only kills the bad people and
like I don't know I only get so much mileage out of some of those stories because it doesn't feel like real life
>> like I when I I read like happy not all happy endings but like when I read stuff
like that like I actually feel worse because it's like oh that made me feel good but that's not the way it is.
>> But that's not real. Yeah. >> Yeah. And even though as wild and fantastical in some ways that this book
is, it just feels like, oh, >> she just went for it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I love Yeah. Cuz she says like the dead
babies in the boxes that she sent to the nuns >> with like the sorry here's another one
note. I was like, I'm sorry, what? Sorry, here's one more. And they kind of like touch on that earlier, I think,
when she's sitting down with them and she's like about to eat and kind of interview with them. Like they're like,
"Oh, that's so awful that that's happening." And in the back of your mind, you're like, "Is that her doing
that?" >> And then she's like, "Can confirm." Yeah. And confirm just with the notes,
"Sorry, here's another one." I was like, "What?" >> And just like breaking out of sort of
the Victorian speak a little bit, too. >> There was a few times she did that for
sure. >> And it worked so well. And I think just like at one point she says, "Reader, she
doth make a fine point about Priscilla." And I was like, she does. >> She really does.
>> I'm with you on this. >> I know. >> Uh when she found the tooth in her mouth that wasn't hers, and then it just never
was explained again. >> Whose tooth was that? >> Like whose mer was in her mouth? And
like did that h there were so many things that happened that I was like did that happen? Like um
>> I think when she's really starting to unravel, she walks by one of the rooms and there's a bunch of like plague
doctors and you're like they're not there. It's Christmas. Like what? >> But they're all just like
>> and then they just close her out of there. >> Or when original baby just talks to her
out of nowhere. >> That's how original baby got started talking. >> I loved that.
>> Yeah. On my second read, you know, to prepare for this cuz I wrote it I read it like, you know, two two and a half
years ago at this point. Um because I got the early early copy. >> Yeah. I was like, "Oh, maybe this is a
little bit more way more ambiguous than I thought." >> Um even like cuz it's written in present
tense and there's sometimes where I forget the end of one chapter was like, >> you know, it's not like will they
survive the night and then she says they don't or it breaks from present tense you're wondering about the state of
these people in the house to her saying no they don't. I'm >> like no, right? Um, so I mean her as a
storyteller is part of it it could just be explained away as it's a choice how she's telling it because you know by the
end you know when she's on the gallows sort of explaining things like it just made me think how am I how am I learning
the story like how how are we hearing this >> and she even like says you know sometimes I'm not right in the head you
not in those words exactly but >> she's truthful she is >> which I I loved because that was like oh
this is a book that I could read multiple times and still you know >> still one And still even though like I
won't have the shock of the baby being killed and replaced with some poor farmer's baby that she just plucks from
the ground who's going to have a different nose later on. I loved that. >> There's still so many other pleasures to
to get from this when you >> Yeah. And I like that she foreshadows the gallows a couple of times for you
where you're like, I'm sorry, what? Like you're just like, okay, you're going to
get caught after this. Like this isn't the end. I loved that. >> That was really cool.
>> Yeah. Uh, do you think Wifred do you think of her as a psychopath, a villain,
or the most honest person in the room >> or all of the above? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, I got to be all three, I
guess. I mean, that's what I think. >> Do that to a baby. >> Yeah. I feel I feel that's
>> it. The baby line. Um, but you know, the rest of the people in the house are >> awful.
>> Probably as bad as she or as bad as she is in different ways. >> Yeah, I think so. I think so for sure.
>> Yeah. Mrs. Pounds. >> I hate Mrs. Pounds. >> I was ready from the jump, too. >> Yeah. Yeah, the green dress she gave her
that was probably poison. Like I missed that on the first read somehow, I think.
>> Oh yeah, >> on the second read there was more time spent with that and you know that could
be messing with her brain and >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah, cuz they used to make those We
looked it up. They used to make those dresses out of like arsenic. So like they would wear them a few times and
then start death. >> They put it in wallpaper too. Like any vibrant green thing back in the day was
placed with arsenic. >> Wild. Uh, what was the first scene that made you realize this book was going to
be feral? Was it the one that you already read? >> I think it was probably Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It was >> when she I think it was like the first chapter at the end when she says in
three months everyone in this house will be dead. Y >> I was like >> I took notes a couple of notes and that
was the first thing I wrote down. I was like, "Oh, okay." >> That was the first one I tabbed. I was
like, "Damn." >> And she's I think she starts it off by being like, "Yeah, it's going to be like
really cold and it's going to get colder and then everyone's going to die." >> Yeah. It's crazy.
>> Okay. >> Wow. All right. Right. I'm into it. >> Yeah. >> And again, I feel like we just were all
I was rooting for her pretty early on and I which I was shocked by cuz at first when I read that I was like, "Oh
no." Like she's going to be is she going to be irredeemable? >> Oh, and she's going to kill like a whole
family. >> And she is irredeemable. That's the weird thing is like she's completely
irredeemable. But like >> why did I like her? I was like that is so hard to write a character that way
and have it work. >> Yeah. It's impressive. >> Yeah. It's like the voice is just so
humorous and inviting >> and like and and she's letting you in on it. So instantly that sort of like gets
you over to her side. >> She is, you know, these people are pretty terrible, right? Like don't you
think >> except you know they're the people aren't so terrible who are also getting
it. >> It's true. She's equal opportunity. >> Now the the scene in the book also like
you were thinking the feral scene. What comes to mind to me is the the decayed crow pudding that she
>> Oh my god. when she was away at school. >> All those kids, oh my god, >> clergy daughter school or whatever.
>> That actually made my stomach turn when I was reading it. >> That was gnarly.
>> She's like covering it up like with the maggots and everything. I was like, "Oh
my god, >> that was I Yeah, that was a lot." That's I think when she one of the first
mentions of like, "And I will be hung at some point during this." I was like, "Yeah, probably girl."
>> I was like, "That's not good." >> But then I also felt like weirdly bad for her cuz they were so mean to her,
she was saying. And that was the one time that like they needed her. >> I know. >> It reminded me. Have you seen Yellow
Jackets? >> I haven't. Sorry. >> Oh, okay. That's all right. It kind of reminded me of Misty, one of the
characters who like >> she's a psychopath, but she like wants to be needed so desperately
>> and she's like bullied and kind of pushed around a little bit. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, when she's needed, she like
she makes a situation where she is needed. Yeah. Essentially, >> it felt very much like that.
>> And that's what she did. She made a situation where she was >> She's like, "It's the only time that
they ever were like nice to me." It made me sad. >> And I I like too that like like we were
just saying, we don't know who the worst person in the book is. Tech like Winnie
Winterford is the worst person in the book, but like >> there's other people that you're like
these people are also really terrible. Like Mr. Pounds is gross. >> Mr. Pounds is really gross.
>> Like all those people at the dinner party like the dowager. >> I hated the dowager.
>> Such a [ __ ] I was like >> with her cane just hitting people. >> When she finally got got with that cane,
I was like, "All right, I'm into that." a perfect way to take her out. >> Yeah, it really was. And
>> I mean, she the thing with Wifred is she exists in this like weird space in the
book and I think it makes it the really interesting because she's a governness so she's in charge of the kids and she
she's not she's not known to be family in the beginning. She's not one of the servants technically and she's also
definitely not an equal at all. But she's like she has this unique ability to be able to like wander around the
house and sit at the table and have more access to places and people without getting the same kind of respect that
someone would. And I feel like that helped tell the story really well. >> Yeah. >> Because she has all this access but
she's treated so poorly, right? >> You know, and I really liked that. I thought that made it unique. For sure.
>> Absolutely. And I think there's a lot of obviously the Victorian high society is
like a character in this book. Like >> yeah, the setting like does become a character in
>> of itself. And I think it's like kind of flipped on its ear here because a lot of
people think of Victorian high society as like you know fancy and like gilded and like everything was so like you know
like they're elite. They're this. But she portrays them as disgusting. >> Filthy.
>> Disgusting. Like the Victorian elite are just foul. >> Yeah. >> And I loved that. It was like little
things like when she's going upstairs and looking in all of their rooms and she mentions the ear wax on the pillow
at some point. I was like like >> and like just little thing like lard is was in one of their hair to keep their
hair back. The scene where they're all eating >> that I think Mikey had warned you
beforehand cuz Elena has misophonia. >> So like hearing things. I swear you could hear it as you were reading.
>> It was foul. >> That scene was that was like almost like a nice counterbalance to the the crow
>> meal. Like that meal was just as disgusting. Even though these were things that were specially prepared.
>> Yeah. And how they were eating it. >> Oh, I know. They're just like >> Oh, it's horrifying. Like like gouging
it into their faces. It's so gross. And I think it's I love that they presented it that way that like these people look
like may have all this money and they're they have all the power. They are just as disgusting if not more than everybody
else. >> Yeah. Like I loved that. >> I know. It was almost like the like the servants in the house were like higher
society than the high society people. >> They had it more together I feel like. >> And the high society parents of other
baby never even notice. >> Yeah. that they're not even >> blew my mind so like attuned to like
their own kid that >> oh and the fact too that Wifred knew that that wouldn't be an issue. She's
like yeah I feel like she had done that before >> you know >> and I was wondering too when she brought
new baby in I was like what's going to happen here cuz in my head I'm like of course she's going to know.
>> That seemed like a corner impossible to write out of. >> It did. It really did.
>> She really just like you're not going to notice. Yeah. Like that's and it was part of the
whole like look how disgusting these people are. She doesn't even know her own child,
>> right? Like even and it wasn't like, oh, I picked a baby that's like the same
size. It seems she was like this doesn't look like this baby at all. And not only
that, it's like it's not as big as this baby. Doesn't look like this baby has a mole that that baby doesn't have. When
>> she scrapes it off scrapes it off, I'm like, "Is the baby bleeding when you return it?" Like what?
>> And like the outfit it was wearing was like covered in blood, but she's like,
"Ah, I don't know. Like babies, they throw up." Well, she said she's like, "I've learned through experience that
like mess looks like blood. It's fine." >> That's the same. And I was like, and she
and it worked. They just showed up the next >> at the next thing being like, "Here's
the baby >> like the next thing with the baby a little older and looking even less like
>> even less like it should have look." And I loved it cuz she was like, "It's nose
is going to look different and that's going to be a conversation later." I was like, "Oh my god,
>> that's so funny." But yeah, it was and it what's what's cool too is she obviously like did a lot of research
about Victorian times and like weird Victorian customs >> because they were nuts. Like that whole
mummy unwrapping part I was like what is this? And in my head I was reading it and being like this is crazy.
>> I looked it up and I was like oh that was a thing. Like they actually like wealthy Victorian families would go to
Egypt, they would buy an entire mummy as a souvenir, bring it home, have a party,
and then they would all just unwrap the mummy. And I was like, what? >> That's the weirdest.
>> I'm sorry, what? >> We're a we're a strange society >> and like for what purpose? I I don't
understand the curiosity. >> Why are we doing this? >> Ford rich imperialists. >> Because we can very much that.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And we were reading more like they were, you know, they were talking like
when she's dressing Dusilla and getting her ready and like all these like features that they find to be desirable
are all like features of like tuberculosis. Like that's and that was considered desirable back then. It was
like being super pale and like super frail and you know the the flush in the cheeks and
>> like literally looking sick. >> Looking consumptive was the cool thing. And I love that she put it in there too
cuz it was all very real. Like again the >> the green dress like that's a thing. I
think she mentions the Belladonna >> eye drops. That was a thing to like dilate their pupils and they would just
go blind after a while. >> But they'd be gorgeous. >> But they'd be gorgeous with big eyes.
Like what? >> But one thing I really liked about this was in the end when Dusilla joins in and
is all like doing all the things for days. They're they'reing the house the 12 days of Christmas when they and when
they set them all up at the table >> and like feed them like food like they're just like having a whole feast
with them. I was like this is the most [ __ ] up thing I've ever read and I love it.
>> But do you think that Dusilla actually was taking part in that or do you think
she was chained up the whole time? >> Yeah, it's a great question. I was sort of
>> I was gonna ask what you thought about Dusilla at the end too. >> Yeah. Um to to go back to like you know
how much is this how much more of this is ambiguous than maybe we think there's a line early on in the book where I
think you know Winnie is confessing stuff you know she says I fear I am succumbing to elaborate flights of fancy
um you know this shant be like other times or something you know >> y so >> yeah I don't know I mean I I think just
because it's so weird to say that you enjoy your time with Winnie that you want to think all of this happened Yeah,
just as she says that you're there. Just as she says and that you're there with her at the end and so you actually we
feel or as a reader I felt betrayed by Drusilla. >> Yes, I did too. Yeah. >> Yeah. A kid and you know
>> Yeah. Like why do I feel this way? >> When I got to the end I was like pissed
at Dusilla. I'm like come on that's your sister. You're supposed to like ride together.
>> But then once I finished reading I was thinking about just her being kind of an
unreliable narrator. And I was like >> maybe I don't think Drusilla actually did help with all that. And then I think
when she sees Drusilla in the crowd at the gallows and she's crying. I don't think Dusilla is crying because they had
this killing bond together or anything like that. I think she's crying because of what happened to her family.
>> Yeah. Like she massacred her whole family. >> I think she was chained up for the whole
thing. And I think Winnie just didn't want to be in it alone. Maybe. >> Yeah. >> Right. Cuz that's a hard switch to flip.
I mean I think there were no clues of Drusilla's, >> you know, potential psychotic behavior,
>> right? um anywhere else, you know, prior to the, you know, just to the like Caligula sort of 12 Days of Christmas
that, you know, she, you know, that Winnie says she took a part in. >> Yeah. >> And I that's the only thing I could
think of with that that I went back to. And I think this was smart of her to plant these little things in there was
like the painter, like the leerous painter that she was into. And now, you know, the mother got mad and then the
father made her hold the locket up and shot it. >> She had anger toward them. So it's like
you planted that which like obviously you're not going to be like so you should kill your whole family. Like
that's but you could at least go back to it and be like did that like break her a
little bit? >> That's a little hard to have that shot out of your hand. >> Yeah. Like having to hold a locket and
have it shot out of your hand. >> Well and I think the painter said something to her and again we can't be
sure that he did but she finds a note when she's putting Dusilla to bed and he says something like
>> you have weird tendencies so like please stop writing me. >> Yeah. That's right. That's a good point.
>> So who knows was that real? Could that be just when Afred trying to justify the
whole thing or trying to be like she's with me like this did happen? >> That's why I think the end is so fun
because you really can't be sure whether Dusilla was part of it or if she wasn't.
>> Yeah. >> Right. It's strange to to be made to want to think, oh, Drusilla is going to
>> carry on as like the next Victorian psych electric bugaloo. >> Hey, it leaves it kind of open, you
know, maybe Drusilla's story is next. Who knows? >> And I don't know like which which would
you prefer to be? like was she taking part in it or was she would you rather her have been
>> I feel like I prefer her to take part in it in a weird way. Yeah, there's the fun
part of me which >> I don't let out very often >> that is is rooting for that you know but
I think you know the more I think about like I think it you know it's more you know most of the stuff happened but it's
being refracted through through Winnie and >> and go towards what more realistic
interpretation but >> yeah she was probably she ended up there >> it makes sense it does make sense in the
end >> I feel like unless she and again unless she's like this like criminal mastermind
and she like partied with her for a few days and then realized they were going to get caught and was like, "Well, I'll
just quickly do this." >> No one's going to believe that her over me. >> They are related. So, you do have to
wonder, is there something? Are they both missing the same screw? You know, >> then again, are they related? Because
Mr. Pound said that's not my daughter. >> That's true. I think Mr. Pound, >> which made me wonder, too. I'm like, is
he just saying that to be an [ __ ] or I think so. Is that really not her? when he talks about being
>> she talks at different times about being observed and she's not sure quite by who
and you know maybe it's Drusilla and for a while she thought it was Drusilla. >> Yeah.
>> Um yeah I don't know. Interesting. >> Yeah. >> There's a lot that you have to wonder.
>> Yeah. >> From Winnie's perspective and I think that's just fun. >> You mentioned people to hate before.
Like we haven't I I hate I hated Andrew the most. >> Oh my god. >> I hate Andrew so much and I was like why
don't we get this eightyear-old child? >> Is he only eight? Yeah, >> I think he's literally becomes bigger
and older, but yeah, he's only >> He w he walked in on the first day and he was like, "Screw you. This is how
it's going to go. My last nanny was better than you." And I was like, "You don't run stuff around here." Little
Andrew. And I think he was like licking food off of one of the nurs's fingers. And I was like, "No,
not >> Yeah. Just, you know, Mr. Pound in training like >> Yeah, that's exactly what it felt like.
>> That's the thing." Well, it's funny, you know, thinking of that because Lisa's a
huge fan of like Jane Austin and other Victorian novels. I wonder, are you all Victorian readers, Austin, etc. I'm
curious as someone who was a big Victorian novel reader, what they would think of the voice of the style of the
setup. >> That would be interesting, actually. >> Yeah, I haven't read a ton of that. So,
yeah, >> I thought it was really fun, though. I know cuz I feel like Victorian novels
usually like the ones I've read from like school and such. Yeah. I feel like they do present the Victorian age as
like this very like >> fancy whimsical and romantic time >> which I'm sure it had elements of but
like grubby. >> Yeah. But I mean I do think there's an element of like the manners, you know,
because I know Jane Austin you was riffing on like the manners and using that to
>> for sure >> using that to represent the difference between the classes as opposed to
cyclist killing babies. >> Right. Exactly. I think that there is that there is the manners component to
it like you know the dinner that we talked about and just how Winnie is treated and
>> you know how she'll say things that probably in reality would have gotten her like fired right away but you know
for our benefit that that's funny. I don't know. Yeah. >> I love the couple times where they'd be
like excuse me and then she'd say something completely different. That was great.
>> Like when she says are we not allowed to eat the children like >> as she's like licking a calf head on
like a I was like what? I I also just love that everything that went ignored that she did like uh
>> Yeah. >> The even I think it was like the first day that she was there, she bites into
the calf's head. >> Yeah, that's that's the part. Is that what you're talking about? And she's
somebody finds her and >> she turns around and she's like, "Oh, we're not allowed to eat the children. I
didn't know that." And they were just like, "What?" >> They're like, "Okay, you're strange."
>> I love her. I like I just love how like unhinged she is. >> And she was always weirdly rudder to the
like her co-workers, right? >> She was. Yeah. Like, you know, she talked at times about like dreaming of
being this is my forever family. Like, she says that a couple times. Yeah. >> Even though, you know, she has nothing
but disdain for pounds, but there's still like >> she wants to be part of something.
>> I don't know if it's sometimes if it's humor or her I don't know like I'm not
100% sure like why. >> Yeah. >> That's what I meant like earlier wasn't just like, you know, she's just,
>> you know, she's just sthing her way through the upper class, right? >> Like there's no one to spared like No.
>> Which I think makes her really difficult. Yeah. >> And even stranger like how much we enjoy
her. >> I know cuz she talks about having like line like shelves lined with dead babies
at home >> as a child too. >> As a child and that like she had a full grown woman like outside dead and she
was like she didn't fit on the shelf and it was like is that real? Like did you really do that?
>> And I think it is. >> I think it might be. >> Yeah. I think one thing that we didn't
touch on that I would love to hear like how you guys felt. Were you absolutely shocked when you found out that Mr.
Pounds was her father? And do you believe that he actually was? >> Uh, I'd say yes and yes.
>> Yes. >> I think that's very believable. Even, you know, of other stuff is of her sort
of creation. >> I think the same thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. But I was shocked. >> But I was Yeah.
>> I got to that point when it was like John Pounds and my mouth literally dropped. And then you have to wonder,
you're like, "Okay, like is this the Mr. Pounds?" So then I kept reading and it was then confirmed. I was like, "Holy
[ __ ] >> I didn't see that coming." >> And she went in there with a mission. So
like when it hap when it was revealed I was like oh like this makes sense why she went in there with like a mission
>> when she had it like arranged that she got that job too. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I thought that was crazy.
>> I know. It was wild. >> I thought that was a really good just like >> like all of a sudden just like oh my
god. >> And it was weird too like going back to like Drusilla now that I'm thinking
about it. It's weird that Drusilla did survive this whole thing if she wasn't a part of it cuz I'm like why did you save
her? Like did you see something that you like and you kind of see throughout the
the book that she does kind of try to like guide Driscilla a little bit more >> than like Andrew or anyone else. Like
>> I'm like I wonder what that was like what that connection was. >> I wonder if it was like the unwanted
daughter kind of thing cuz she has an unwanted daughter and then they're always like whenever she brings up
Derilla and Mr. Pounds he's like yeah whatever Andrew like he's going to take over the the name the family name. So
maybe it was that >> and like he gets all like the classes and all the people coming to teach him
things and you know she's just got to learn needle work >> and get married. >> Yeah. To get married. So maybe that is
it. >> Maybe. >> But I think it kind of lends itself even more to the ambiguity of the whole thing
cuz now I'm like >> well I don't know. Maybe she was chained to that whole thing the whole time. Or
maybe she was part of it. I don't know. But I also love that this has like there
were I was reading it out loud like certain parts of it to my husband last night because I was just like laughing
at certain parts. He's like what is this? So I'd read him a line every once in a while and he was like what is this
story? What is going on? But I think it has such a good mix of like pure horror.
Like the end is horrific. The baby being killed horrific and like them even them
eating so funny. It's like but there's real comedy in there too. It's like such a good mix. And I feel like that's
really hard to accomplish. >> It's a tough balance >> because you're either it's going to go
too horrific and you're going to be like the comedy doesn't fit here and it makes
it weird and like I'm uncomfortable with it or it's going to go too like goofy and then the horror feels goofy too and
neither of these felt goofy. It felt like a perfect mix. >> And it reminds me Have you watched
Widow's Bay? >> Yes. Oh yes. >> I haven't started it yet. I've been try I'm like trying to recruit people to
watch Widows Bay now. It gave me the because I think that show that's how I've been describing it to people is
like >> the horror in it is genuinely scary at times, but it is so funny and the funny
isn't overly goofy where it like, you know, waters down the horror of it. >> So, it gave me that.
>> I It's a great point and I've in other interviews I've I mean because I love I
like horror comedies, but I think it's really hard to sort of say what you described is not to have the source of
the comedy be the horror. >> Yeah. Right. That's what most horror comedies are. It's really find hard to
find in my mind horror comedies that are both scary and funny. >> Yeah. >> Um especially in terms of film.
>> And I agree this book does it. Widow Bay is Widow's Bay is doing it. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> And I think it's And I was when we first started watching Widows Bay, I was like,
"Oh my god, they nailed this combo." And again, like you were saying, >> you just like don't really see that work
ever. And so I was like, "Oh, this is like a diamond in the rough." Like holy [ __ ]
>> Yeah. And then reading this right after we started watching this, I was like,
how have I come across two pieces of media that have done this so well in the same like two week span?
>> It's the horror renaissance. >> It's the horror renaissance. It is. >> That's what makes me so excited for this
to now be translated into film. I feel like it's going to be really fun. >> I'm nervous.
>> I know. I'm nervous. I'm scared. I'm excited. >> Cautiously optimistic. >> I'm cautiously optimistic.
>> But we always we always have this. Yes. >> If if the film does not work, we have
this. Well, and the fact that you said she wrote the screenplay, that gives me a lot of optimism.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> All right. Now, I think we have to get to what I think you might have come for,
which is the rapid fire. Would you rather >> kind of slasher edition. >> Yeah. We got a mix.
>> Yeah, we have a whole mix in here. >> Like New England stuff in here. >> There's Victorian Central.
>> There's some of your some of your work in here. >> All right. >> All right. So, number one, would you
rather be trapped in a mirror a manor with Wifred for 24 hours or trapped in a group chat with every villain character
from your novels? >> Uh, I think I'll go with the group chat just cuz I feel like I won't die. I might be
really annoyed and disturbed, >> but like I think I I wouldn't last very long with Winterfred in the house.
>> Fair enough. And you can always throw on like do not disturb, you know? >> That's valid. Yeah,
>> I think that's valid. >> I think that's what I would do. I'd be afraid she would kill me and replace me
with other Paul and people would be like, "Oh yeah, >> Paul with new Paul." >> There's original Paul and then there's
new Paul. >> Yeah. >> See, I hate te like I'm one of those people that people will text me and I'll
look at it and be like, >> "Oh, I should answer that." And then I just don't for like five days and then
I'm like, "I'm so sorry." And it's like I'm just bad at it and I get overwhelmed
and like executive dysfunction. So I feel like being in a group chat >> Yeah. >> is my nightmare. Yeah.
>> Well, and the villains in your book might kill you. >> They might just I don't want to listen
to them. So, I think and I don't know. I feel like me and Wifred for 24 hours. >> We might be okay.
>> Could be a cool hang. >> I feel like we might be okay. >> You could have like a Dusilla and
Winifred kind of vibe. >> Yeah. >> I love I just want to believe that. >> Or would there be other people in the
house for her to kill just in case or is it just you? >> That's a good one. >> Oneon one. So, you do have to survive
that cuz she is going to have to go 24 hours without hurting someone. >> She started off pretty chill.
>> She did. >> Give her a calf's head. >> Yeah. There you go. Let her lick you every once in a while.
>> Yeah. Just give her your earlobe. >> That's all you need. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think it's fine.
>> You know what? Yeah. I'm in real Winnie. I'm going Winnie. >> I mean, I don't want her to lick me, but
>> All right. So, the next one is, would you rather have a ghost follow you forever? Just follow you around. Or a
book reviewer follow you forever. Oh man, I think I'll have to go with the ghost.
I mean, that'll be very scary at night though. Um, but like I don't know how you do it, but
like I actively avoid reading any Good Reads or Amazon There Lies Madness. >> So, I mean, if you're talking like oh
like a >> I don't know like a New York Times review is following me around. I feel
like they might be a little bit more polite, but I don't know. >> Maybe they wouldn't.
>> Make it We're making it an internet reviewer. >> Yeah. If it's random internet, then
there's no choice. I I would do the ghost. >> Yes. 100%. I agree with you 100%. >> I'd pick a ghost, too, just because I
think that's fun. >> Yeah. >> And I feel like ghosts have followed me in my life, so nothing new here.
>> And I feel like you could eventually become friends. >> Yeah. >> The ghosts. Like you could you could
have a rapport at some point. >> Yeah. You get used to their tendencies. It's like mate.
>> Exactly. >> I'm sure I'd annoy him because I'd start calling him Casper or something and
they'd get pissed off and >> they'd be like, "Maybe that's your bond though." You know, bomb.
>> That's your thing. All right. Would you rather receive one life-changing, terrifying supernatural
visitation, like earthshattering? >> Just one. >> Just one. Or would you rather receive
one brutal Goodreads review every morning, >> which is kind >> So I have to review it. I have to read
it. >> Mhm. Just one every morning, which is a probably tough way. >> Like a really brutal one.
>> That's hard to start. Yeah. Geez. Maybe. I mean, so like 98% of my day I'm a card
carrying skeptic atheist, don't believe in anything. But there's like the 2% where I wake up in the middle of the
night and I'm totally freaked out. The next day I'm like, "Paul, are you such an idiot?" So like, you know, I I tell
people that I I don't believe, >> but I don't want to be proven wrong. So even though I'm I'm leaning towards the
first thing, >> um because in some way in some ways that would actually still also be really
cool. Like >> whoa, there's >> this. There it is. There it is. >> Where does this exist? So,
>> I think I would go with the first, >> even though it would probably scare the
[ __ ] out of me and I'd be like, >> "Yeah, cuz it's going to be brutal." >> But at least it's just one. It's not a
bad review every day for the rest of your life. Yeah. You know, >> that'll get you down.
>> That would That's the thing. I can I feel like it with proper therapy and help, I can get past a brutal
supernatural experience that I can't explain. >> That's true. But having it happen like a
brutal Goodreads review every morning for the rest of my life, I feel like that would that would take years off
>> as opposed to home. I mean, because I could do that easily. >> Yeah, that's the thing. That could
really happen. I could do that right now. I don't want to. >> Yeah. Don't do that. You too. Yeah. No.
No. No. >> Uh, so this one I'm really interested in. >> Would you rather be able to write a
first draft in one week >> or >> like Stephen Graham Jones? >> Yeah. Just like boom. Exact. Like boom,
here we go. That's how quickly he writes. Yeah. >> Would you like to be able to revise a
manuscript perfectly on one pass? >> Uh, I'll do the one pass. >> One pass. One pass on the manuscript.
>> I was hoping you would answer that because I also feel that way. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.
>> Cuz I'm fine with the first draft taking forever. >> Yeah. I mean, as hard as it can be, uh,
I love like how life sneak sneaks in. Like it usually takes me 12 to 15 months to come up with a draft. And oh, it's
kind of fun. Like the book gets better by living with that book for that time. Like things that I never would have in
that week I never would have come up with like it took that time. So >> I think I think it's too realistically.
But yeah. >> Yeah. No, it's true though. That's a realistic one. You know, >> it makes sense because it kind of like
dips into, you know, if like something's happening that week, the writing's going
to change a little bit and the story might change with it or a character might change with it.
>> So I feel the same way. I think I don't mind like sitting with a draft for a while and like tinkering with it. Yeah.
>> Once it comes to like the first passes and the edits, that's when I'm like, did
I get through this? >> So, definitely that one. >> Me, too. >> Yeah. >> You know.
>> Yeah. >> So, the next one, this is also a really good one, I feel. >> Would you rather encounter a ghost from
1692 Salem or the ghost of a really salty sea captain from Cape Cod? >> We're saying salty personality.
>> Yeah. And maybe he's salty >> and probably as well. He's probably physically salty as well.
>> You know, my my knee-jerk is to go with the salty person, but I think I would
become really annoying because I know I would just start talking like them. Like
>> I'm it's so bad like if I talk to British friends for more than five minutes, I start
>> I'm not doing it on purpose and I feel like such an [ __ ] It just starts happening.
>> But I think maybe for the comedy of it, the the salty sea captain >> because then I would have a new
impersonation or pattern >> slip into every once in a while. I would pick that. >> I grew up in Beverly next to Salem, so
I'm like, h I mean, I love that area, but like h give me the new give me the new guy.
>> 1692 ghost just sounds really scary. They probably really like faced a lot in
their life. So, >> and I wouldn't understand what they're saying like how they talk. You ever seen
the movie The Witch? Like, you know, >> I love that movie, but like I don't know
what >> you'd have to constantly be like, what? >> And then you might start talking like
that and yourself. That's true. That's true. See, I might regardless of all of that, I might pick the 1692 ghost.
>> That just makes sense for you >> because I just want to know. >> Yeah. >> Everything. Like I think I'd be like,
"Sit down. Tell me it all. Like, what happened here?" >> Yeah. >> I need to know. I want to know
everything. >> That's fair. >> I also want to I want to know like are there still bodies under, you know,
Gallows Hill? Yes. Burial point. >> You're still thinking Widow's Bay. You want to hang out with Hamish, the Warren
guy. >> Yes. I want to know. like tell me tell me what it is. Like we haven't used they
haven't figured out if there's still bodies buried in that area and I'm like you got to tell me. So
>> yeah, you'd ask about like Charles Corey. >> Oh yeah. I'd be like what was he like?
He seems kind of he was kind of a dick. >> Yeah. >> Like iconic at the same time, you know.
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'd want to know all of that. >> I get that. I'm going sea captain.
>> I get it. >> Yeah. Just fun. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> that's fine. So I'll get the 1692
person. The salty sea captain >> and we'll sing sea songs. See I love it. And then we'll all get together and we
can learn things. >> Compare numbers. >> Yeah. >> All right. This one's kind of heady.
Would you rather have definitive proof that ghosts do exist or definitive proof that they do not?
>> Which we kind of touched upon, but >> we did sort of. >> H the fir again the first one would be
more fun like like I would say like I don't have to prove they don't exist. To me that's
almost like the assumption like you would have to prove the other way, right? >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I mean, I could be like the most famous person on earth and true could totally cash in on proving. I'm just
thinking I want money. I'm a full-time writer now. I need money. I'm desperate. So, yeah, let me prove the ghosts and
>> you know, write for tell alls on it and >> interviews like oneonone. Yeah. Experience.
>> I want proof that they exist simply because that's just >> I don't want to live in a world where
they don't exist, you know? >> That's how I feel. >> The fun in that. What's the fun in that?
Because I always say the same thing, like I'm a very healthy skeptic at times, but I I believe I want to believe
more that they do exist. >> We've had so many experiences that it's crazy to me that you're still skeptical.
>> Well, there's I try my first knee-jerk instinct is to try to explain it with some kind of
>> We grew up in a haunted house >> and I try to explain it and sometimes I can, but sometimes I can't.
>> So many things in that house we grew up in inexplicable. Yeah, there's definitely been a lot of fa and that's
why I'm more over on the side of like okay I think there are something I don't know what but
>> yeah like to not to well when I'm always posed that question I feel like I disappoint people it's like yeah like
you know because I've never experienced anything and >> and I've always said I feel like if I
were to experience it wouldn't be like Slimer from Ghostbusters. Yeah. >> It would be really subtle and just off
and like as time passes I would be >> I would want to explain it away. >> Yeah. >> And that would just be the way it would
go. Yeah. Um, so but anyway, I don't know if that adds anything. I was just thinking about
>> I think well and I had like like one thing that happened in our house growing
up that I to this day like cannot explain and that's the one that really like got me like what was that we had
like my house used to be like an old farmhouse so it's got all this like crazy history and it's super old. We
found like weird [ __ ] buried on the floor. >> Weird [ __ ] buried there. And the primary
bedroom, like they add, my parents added on to the house, but the primary bedroom
like used to be my bedroom. And it always had weird [ __ ] going on in it. But again, I was like, "It's fine.
Nothing's weird here." And it became my parents like art studio when I kind of like got older and I moved into another
room. >> That room is scary as hell >> and it's scary now. And that we had like it was when we had which like RIP
computer rooms where it was like the room where the computer lived. Mhm. >> They used to shut the door every time
and you had to go past the primary bedroom, the old one, to get to the computer room. And one night I was
walking past it to go to the computer room. >> The door was shut and something from
behind the door, hit the door from inside so hard that I jumped across the hall like into the wall. My dog like
jumped up and was like, "What the hell was that?" >> I think my my dad heard it and was like,
"What did you just do? like what was that? And I was like, I have no idea what that is. It was in there. He opened
the door. Nothing was against the door. It sounded like somebody took fists and slammed them against the door. And it
was right when I walked by. >> That's terrifying. >> And that's the one that I'm like, I
don't know how that happened. >> In that same room. >> That's a good one. >> Yeah. That same room. I used to spend
the night in that room. If like you had people over or something, I would sleep in that room.
>> And I was on an air mattress like watching the Disney Channel probably. I was like 10 years old. And there was
this like Tupperware like container thing full of old magazines and it was probably like 2:00 in the morning and it
just slid across the room with like crazy force. I screamed so loud. My grandparents came running, you came
running >> and nobody there was no way to reenact that or anything. >> It was tilted all of a sudden.
>> No, cuz it was so forceful. That room has weird energy. So see if you tell me
that and then say you have to go stay overnight in that room. I would be like hell no.
>> Even though I say I don't believe like stay in this purely haunted house, I am
not going to do that. >> Yeah. >> So I I guess on some level I >> I fear I believe.
>> Yeah. See, you have a you have a healthy fear of them. >> I feel most skeptics feel that way.
Yeah. >> You know. >> Yeah. Healthy fear is there. >> Yeah. >> All right. So, bringing it back to
Bridgewater Triangle, >> if you were dropped into the Hakamok Swamp, just right in the middle of it,
would you rather find giant crypted type footprints everywhere or perfectly normal human footprints that should not
be there? >> I would uh I was going to say crypted, but then my daughter would just make fun of me
because she was when she was a lot younger, she used to love Bigfoot stuff, and I was like, "Oh, there's no such
thing as Bigfoot." And she gets so mad at me. Um, what would I ra I mean I guess I would
rather see the crypted. I mean that would be so cool be like to be wrong and be like oh wow there is this weird giant
eight bigfoot thing that runs around. >> Scary. >> I was going to say who wants to come
across a serial killer in the woods. No one. >> Like I don't want to come across a
random person in the middle of the Hawk swamp. >> It's my worst nightmare. >> I'd much rather run into Bigfoot.
>> Just be one with Bigfoot at that point. >> Yeah. Truly. >> Yeah. Like take on their customs and
everything. >> I'm ready. Yeah. >> Let's go. I love it. >> Start knocking on trees with rocks.
Communicate with >> other hair really long. Get crazy with it. >> We could bond.
>> Yeah. Hell yeah. That's what I'm doing. >> I like it. >> All right. Would you rather have Wifred
plan your wedding or host your funeral? >> Oh. Oh jeez. Well, it seems like family
and loved ones are both in danger, in jeopardy in both scenarios. >> That's true, right? That's very true.
>> Oh, >> at least she doesn't have to be at your wedding. >> I'm going to be really selfish. I'd say
plan my funeral because I'm already dead. >> There you go. >> Like if it was my wedding, there's a
chance that I could be one of one of >> Yeah, the red wedding. Yeah, >> that's true,
>> right? I don't want my wedding to be a bummer. My my >> funeral's already going to be a bummer.
So, she could just make it more of a bummer. I guess >> she might live it up even.
>> Yeah, that's true. Yeah. >> And you just don't have to deal with the aftermath. So, it's nice to not have to
clean up after her. >> Yeah. >> You know, I feel that, too. I feel her wedding plans would be a little too
macob for me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, she can do my funeral. >> I agree. So, back to back to some
ghosties. Would you rather be haunted by a Puritan ghost who judges everything you do or a Victorian ghost who
constantly corrects your etiquette? >> Uh, >> both horrific. Yeah, you might go Victorian because
>> Yeah, >> the etiquette stuff doesn't bother me. Probably much to the grin of some people
that know me. It'd be easy to laugh off that ghost. The etiquette ghost. >> Yeah.
>> Yeah. >> I feel like Ma is kind of an etiquette ghost. Who is that? So, >> so I'll just take that. It's I'd be used
to it. >> Same. Because the Puritan ghost >> Yeah. >> would make me create like again I I'll
take the 1692 Puritan ghost that like hangs for a second and just tells me things. You got to go after that.
>> Yeah. >> I can't. And I would I mean just to take the logic out further like if the
Puritan ghost is telling me not to do things. >> It's like well if there's a Puritan
ghost maybe >> you know the god is their god. Like maybe [ __ ] I shouldn't be doing this
stuff. You mess with my head. >> That's true. That's true. >> That's a really good point. I can ignore
the etiquette. But like the puritans like you're going to go to hell if you do this, this, and this.
>> You're like, maybe I am. >> That just becomes like OCD. >> Yeah, >> that that becomes too existential for me
and I I would start losing my mind, I think. For sure. >> Yeah. Victorian etiquette ghost for
sure. >> Yeah. And and after reading this book, you could just be like, you're gross. So
>> yeah, why are you telling me this? >> Did you unwrap a mummy? Okay. >> Yeah, we'll unwrap a mummy.
>> All right. You are dropped into the middle of the Bridgewater uh Bridgewwater triangle at midnight. You
can choose one companion. A ghost hunter, a cryptozoolologist, a priest, a witch, or Stephen King. Who
do you choose? >> Um, I've Stephen and I have exchanged a bunch of emails, but I've never met him
in person. It'd be kind of fun to be in the woods with Stephen. >> Hell yeah. >> Hope he's okay with that. I don't know
if he would want to be in the woods. Does >> he want to be in the woods? >> He gets popped in there no matter what.
>> Yeah, he's just there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Stephen. >> Yeah. Me and Stephen.
>> Yeah, >> that'd be Yeah, that's definitely for sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. That's your choice, too.
>> That was my choice. I was like, because I could be my own ghost hunter. Like, I
don't I don't hunt with that. >> A cryptozoolologist, I feel like, would just be like, "Oh, look, that's
Bigfoot." And I'd be like, "No, I know." Like, >> I've done my own research. >> That's a Pacqua. I know. I've researched
this. >> I'm from here. >> A priest? >> No. No. >> No. Thank you. >> A witch. >> We are.
>> Yeah. I was like, I could be my own witch, so that's fine. And then I was like, Stephen King in the middle of the
Bridgewater Triangle or like the Hawk Swamp. I was like, just start writing together.
>> I was going to say then maybe we could be like, let's come up with a story together experience.
>> Yeah. Just to have a hang with Stephen King in a weird space. >> I mean, >> Stephen here's just think he's going to
start writing Misery, too. >> Yeah. >> Oh my god. >> We're like, we want to be in the middle
of the woods with you. >> God damn it. It's like, oh, help. I love it. >> Yeah, that's what What is yours?
>> Oh, good call. >> Yeah. >> Um, I feel the same as you. I don't I can be a ghost hunter. Like all the same
reasoning and I've never met Stephen King. So >> yeah, why not? >> I hang with him. I have a lot of
questions. >> I want to know about Mambbo number five. >> Yeah, I really >> became obsessed with that song.
>> Yep. >> What if he like tried to be like a real woodsman? Was really bad at it. It's
like, hey, you know, we can eat this mushroom. Trust me, Stephen King. Like, oh my god, I'm dying.
>> Trust me, it's there's some potential rat falls to it. I suppose >> he's silly because I might believe him.
Like if he ends the the thing with trust me, I'm Stephen King. I might be like, "Yeah, you are right." So, you are
Stephen King. >> Well, then you just be tripping in the woods. That's kind of fun
>> with Stephen King. >> Yeah. Who can say they did that? >> Definitely would choose him over Grady
Hendris. Like Grady would be cool. >> We're not plopping. >> Be complaining about like bugs and Yeah.
>> Ask you to hold his his blazer. His >> I know he's not used to New England. >> Well, like his like lime color blazer
might help us see as we like work work our way through. >> It could be like a flare.
>> That could be that could be advantageous. That could, >> you know, >> he's going to be he's going to listen to
this and be like, "Damn, I thought we had fun on that." >> I know. Well, I guess I would be joining
them again. >> Yeah. Real nice. >> Barring them for my next event. >> Well, speaking of Grady.
>> Yeah. >> Last question. Would you rather fight one Stephen King clown? So, Pennywise
essentially. Yep. >> Or one Grady Hendris possessed IKEA product or horror store product.
>> Uh, I think I'd go with the horror store. I don't know. I think the clown is, you know, too morphy.
>> I've read horror store was a while ago. I don't have as much memory as what they
could do >> besides like suck me into the store into like the other dimension. >> I know. But I could I feel like I could
fight a a bookcase name. What's it called? Like Benny or something like that. >> Yeah. It's hard to be scared of
>> of Benny. >> Of Benny. >> That's true. >> If that's my I have some of those in my
house. >> Yeah. >> Now I'm going to look at them as ants >> and put your dukes up.
>> Yeah. Square up. >> I see that. I thought this was easy and I think it still kind of is. No, it's
easy for me. >> Like Pennywise is too much like every fear of yours he can just become. So
like >> no. And especially like the big spider. No thank you. >> But I'm also like it's also one of my
biggest fears to be locked in an IKEA. Like when it when you get lost in that loop and you can't find the right way.
>> Yeah. >> That's horror. >> See for me I'm going to find the meatballs. >> You are going to find the meatballs. So
there I'll survive. That's actually smart. >> Thank you. >> They have cinnamon buns, too. I think we
do. So that okay. >> Yeah, they have good stuff. >> I'll fight. Grady has survival products.
Yeah, that is survival. >> Yeah, it scares their Penny Wise scares the show me. So
>> I think colloally I think it is it. >> I think everybody thinks of it as it. >> I know. It's so true.
>> But yeah, that's our would you rathers. >> You survived it. You killed it, >> right? Yeah. I think I got too mathy
with it with my logic. But no, I like that your math teacher. You have >> That's smart. You're only recently
retired. It's not >> I haven't gotten rid of it yet. going to leech out every once in a while. And
honestly, Grady got very into it as well. He thought through them. >> I know. I heard him. He asked for
extras. >> Yeah. He was like, "Let's go." We had to get them on the fly. >> I know. We're like, "Oh my god. Oh [ __ ]
We have more." All right. >> I was like, "Shit." >> But I think that went well. I think we
all survived that. Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. No, this was that was a blast. >> Thank you for being here.
>> Thanks for joining us. >> My ab my absolute pleasure. >> This was so much fun. We've been so
excited for this. And >> Oh, same. Well, thank you. >> Thank you. And everybody read Paul's
books. Yes, please >> go watch the adaptations. They're amazing. Um, and Stephen King, don't
send us a cease synthesis. >> We just want to be friends, Steve. >> Just in the woods.
>> Yeah, we just want to hang in the woods with you. That's all. >> Okay, >> you can go anytime.
>> Yeah, that's all. So, before we go, >> yeah, but Dreaming of Electric Sheep coming out June 30th. Go get it. You
heard what it's about. It's going to be awesome. And Paul, if you have anything else to plug or you want to further
plug? >> Um, I guess I would just I don't know when this podcast is going to run, but
uh on July 2nd since we mentioned Grady, like he and I will be at the Strand New
York City bookstore, >> you know, trying to sell this book. >> Go there. >> I've tried to convince him I'll wear the
suit and he'll wear a t-shirt with tattoos. >> We should wear the lime green blazer,
>> Luke. >> I love that. >> I love it. So, go check them out. Go see where Paul's gonna be and go get his
books >> or else. >> Yeah, >> we'll fight you. All right. >> Well, guys, thank you for listening. We
hope you keep listening and we hope you >> keep it >> weird, but not so weird that you don't go buy
false books. >> Do it. >> You better. Thank you again to Ashley for sponsoring today's episode and for sending us this
gorgeous, gorgeous furniture. Ashley is the largest furniture store brand in North America, and they're focused on
helping people create comfortable, functional, and a stylish home or pod lab that they can feel proud of at a
price that feels accessible and reassuring. With eye-catching designs like the ones that you saw in my Pod
Lab, Ashley can bring a balance of timeless appeal and modern trends to your home. Stain resistance performance
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ashley.com to find your style.

Spoilers Ahead!!! It's Book Club time, weirdos! This time we're joined by bestselling horror author Paul Tremblay for a conversation about one of our favorite recent reads: Victorian Psycho by Virginia Feito! We dive into everything that makes this deliciously deranged novel so unforgettable, from its razor-sharp dark humor and gloriously unhinged protagonist to the gothic atmosphere and jaw-dropping moments that had us audibly gasping. So grab your beverage of choice, settle in, and join us for a delightfully creepy conversation with one of horror's finest. And if you haven't read Victorian Psycho yet... consider this your sign, and join the bookclub discussion once you've devoured it!

Check out Paul Tremblay's newest book Dead but Dreaming of Electric Sheep by preordering now, or grabbing it at your local bookstore next Tuesday June 30th! And DEFINITELY check out his other incredible books that are available wherever books are sold!

Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Listener Tale Theme Music licensed from https://www.purple-planet.com Main Theme: Matti Paalanen — Trick or Treat — Provided by Jamendo Ad Music: Title: Artist: BlueJay Studio — Spooky Waltz — Provided by Jamendo

Brief Summary

Paul Tremblay discusses his new book, horror literature's renaissance, and the adaptation of his works into films.

Key points

Introducing Paul Tremblay. Paul Tremblay, acclaimed author, joins the pod to discuss his work and upcoming projects.
Horror's Cultural Renaissance. A discussion on the current popularity of horror in literature and film.
Dual POV Dynamics. The book features a dual point of view, linking two narratives at the end.
Horror Inspirations. The authors discuss their childhood fears and inspirations from horror movies.
Unexpected Twists. The book is filled with surprising lines that catch readers off guard.
Wifred's Dark Humor. The character Wifred elicits laughter and shock with her outrageous actions.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I ate this book up in one day.

Excitement about reading a book

4:57WatchJun 26, 2026

Tension

45/ 100Some tension

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Episode 800: Morbid Book Club - Victorian Psycho by Virginia Feito | Forensic Files