Cameron Todd Willingham /// Part 2 /// 353 | Forensic Files

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[Music] crime [Music] a tragic house fire just 2 days before Christmas three little children trapped
inside a father cannot get his children out but he somehow manages to escape the
children die but the man is barely injured and we discussed yesterday things at his home were less than
respectable people began to judge this man he was arrested where we left off yesterday we had
covered the early stages of the trial we presented the prosecutions case today let's start with the defense Todd's
attorneys attempted to poke holes in the arson investigators findings but they did not present any expert
Witnesses David Martin later stated that he had limited funds to hire a rebuttal
arson expert and the one that they hired agreed that the prosecution's arson analysis was correct Martin got fog to
agree that he could not say that Amber did not set the fire but that was all he could get Martin did present into
evidence photos of the front porch of the house showing that there was a charcoal grill and a melted bottle of
lighter fluid on the front porch attempting to show that the puddle patterns found on the floor of the porch
and hallway could have been from spilled lighter fluid sprayed around by one of the kids or kerosene from an oil lamp
found in the house that had admittedly been ignored by investigators also Martin pointed out both Todd and Stacy
were smokers and cigarette lighters were readily available throughout the house Amber could climb over the baby gate in
the doorway of her room she could have tried to light the old lamp and it spilled in the
process Martin also asked fog on Cross examination if the witness knew that the type of lighter fluid found at the house
had been recalled because the fliptop lid was too easily opened by children Martin went after Vasquez as
well challenging his conclusions about the Fire's point of origin and Todd's lack of burns on his feet the defense
only presented two witnesses one was Stacy's cousin who babysat for the family she testified that there was a
kerosene lamp in the house and also that Todd would never have set that fire another was a jailhouse informant who
testified that Johnny Webb the state's first witness had been fed his information and only testified against
Todd because he was under threat from some deputies at the end of the defense's case there was a very strange interlude
in which Martin called Todd to the stand out of the presence of the jury but with
the courtroom full of observers and asked him if he intended to testify Todd responded quote I don't feel that I
should have to I don't feel that I need to and quote with that the defense rested yeah I found that a little odd
but I think what they were trying to do was to prove the point that the burden is on the prosecution and that this guy
that's on trial for the the you know really a heinous murder of his children is saying hey look I don't think you met
burden of proof yeah this could have been orchestrated by the defense the only issue I take with that is that the
jury's not present so I don't know what effect it have on the case unless they're trying to prove a point to the
judge that there was not enough evidence to convict right later it emerged that dun and Martin had dissuaded Todd from
testifying believing that he would not make a sympathetic witness so with that you also have to wonder if they're just
doing their due diligence where he is saying that he wants to testify behind closed doors to his attorneys and they
are trying to talk him out of it to which they wanted it on the record for court record to cover their own butts
that they at least gave him the attempt the the chance to testify and he the client declined right I I think the
reason why they don't want him to testify is he comes off as a liar right away to everybody
and that's before people are really suspicious that he might have caused this fire so and then the rumors that he
constantly changed his story as a lawyer probably going we don't know what he's capable of saying on the stand yeah yeah
I this is one of those one of those stories where I feel like you know technically the defense team did their
jobs but yeah I mean regardless if you think Todd is guilty or not I have to ask myself and everybody else out there
the question do you think they did a good job they they put up only one character witness a teenager no Experts
of their own after the trial right and I feel like they could have we have statements
from his wife which you would think that if she thinks he's responsible for this
that she would hate him You' think at some point they would get her to say in court you know yes he was a he was a
piece of [ __ ] and he beat me and he thought he was Billy badass with his shitty Mallet but
he thought the world of his daughters and he wouldn't have done this he wouldn't have killed his daughters
that's interesting for the defense I guess in their in their defense it's a it's a constant Battle of trying to
determine how much sympathy the jury is going to find in a witness or your client in comparison to the information
that they're being told by that witness or the client at the same point where maybe somebody like me might say well we
know he was abusive to her and she still says he couldn't have done it right that
carries a lot of weight for me there's other people on the opposite side of the fence would that would then say well we
have proof we have proof that he's abusive he's a monster and I I actually believe that points more toward that he
did do it even though she says he couldn't have right or she just saying this out of fear because if he gets out
what's going to happen to her look they try to poke Kohl's and the experts uh opinion right but like you said they
didn't call their own expert and I think that is probably the biggest downfall and that might have been out of their
hands and I know that's scary to think about uh but it's probably the reality maybe not 100% in this case but it's the
reality in a lot of cases that have gone on in our system throughout the years obviously Todd didn't have any money his
defense was provided by the state they did say look we we had a very small budget we used a portion of that to pay
an arson expert however that expert said he agreed with the findings of the prosecution of the of the prosecutions
witnesses and then boom our budget's done we have no more money if Todd had been a rich
man and if there were a lot of money to fund his defense he'd be a rich piece of
[ __ ] they would have found somebody to dispute some of those expert findings Yeah the more I learn about our
justice system and Justice systems around the world one thing that seems to be very clear is the only way for you to
actually get a fair trial is to have money that that's a pretty strong statement I think most would agree with
you um I do in this situation I don't know if I would say that 100% across the board one thing I do not agree with at
all is after the trial Todd's lawyers were vocal about the fact that they did not believe their client was innocent
dun said to an interviewer quote to me he was not repentant he had this attitude and he about him that he was
wrongfully charged end quote even worse the Le defense counsel David Martin said
quote the real fact of the matter is that Willingham was guilty he wasn't innocent he really set that fire and
killed those kids end quote the jurors agreed and post trial interviews they said there was never a question as to
Todd's guilt one juror Laura Marx said she would have found Todd guilty even without the arson finding solely because
he did not try to save his children the deck it seems was stacked against Todd from the
start in all the trial lasted just 3 days the jury deliberated for just 77 minutes wow Cameron Todd Willingham was
found to be guilty every time I think I know most most of the things about the case then you throw something out that I
didn't hear 77 minutes is not that long well that's cuz I'm making it up as I go
along oh yeah okay in so it's it's quite easy I think they um I thought I think they thought about this for about 77
minutes in the penalty phase prosecutor Jackson painted Todd as a violent psychopath and he brought in a medical
expert to testify to this psychiatrist Dr James grigson testified that Todd was a quote extremely severe
psychopath the psychologist Tim Gregory testified that the posters on Todd's wall showed violence and death he said
many times individuals that have a lot of this type of art have interest in satanic type activities so again just
one of a bazillion crimes where we see something as simple as some artwork with skulls on it right and somebody saying
that there's a chance that this guy is a psychopath that he's a fan worshipper um I have that cool skull on
my kitchen table I'm going to throw it away you know so they can't ever he's into the devil right I I guess I guess
to be fair um I don't think that the psychopath determination was based solely off of these posters obviously
this guy's beating his wife repeatedly and possibly very likely could be a psychopath and possibly beating her
while she's pregnant now here's where we get more character Witnesses this is because we have the penalty phase right
so several members of Todd's family they would take the stand here asking the judge to spare Todd from the death
penalty this time it did include Stacy Jackson proceeded to grill her about the tattoos Todd hat he asked
about the significance of the very large tattoo of a skull encircled by some kind
of serpent Stacy responded that it was simply just a tattoo it didn't mean anything thing yeah the
tattoo what she should have said is that tattoo is as shitty as his haircut prosecutor John Jackson never wavered
from his conviction that Todd was guilty the supposed pentagram on the floor and
the Satanist image posters on his walls were just icing on the cake the jury sentenced Todd to death after
deliberating for less than 2 hours he was then moved to the Texas state prison at Huntsville to await his execution but
Todd he's going to get a pin pal once he's in prison right well in 1999 a 47-year-old playwright named
Elizabeth Gilbert decided to do a good deed and participate in a program where people become pen pals with death row
prisoners she was assigned to Todd Willingham who by now was on death row for the last seven years the two struck
up an unlikely friendship Elizabeth began looking into Todd's case after she visited him in prison and found him to
be cleancut polite she just thought he was a nice young man and he was adate that he was innocent he's been fooling
people for a while she read the trial transcripts and spoke with his family and she was horrified at what she found
Gilbert concluded that Todd's trial was completely unfair for one thing the psychiatrist who testified that Todd was
a psychopath had never actually met Todd at all that seems like it should be part
of the requirement right to diagnose somebody as a psychopath yeah well I've been diagnosing people as pieces of [ __ ]
for a long time I never met any of them and then we have Dr grigson Who testified for the prosecution in more
than 100 death penalty cases so this earned him the nickname of Dr Death and in 1995 3 years after willingham's trial
grion was expelled from the American Psychiatric association for violating ethics turns out grigson repeatedly
arrived at a psychiatric diagnosis without examining the individuals in question and for indicating while
testifying in court as an expert witness that he could predict with 100% certainty that individuals would engage
in future violent acts to top that off the supposed satanic imagery found in Todd's home and presented to the jury
was actually a lead Zeppelin and an Iron Maiden poster Todd's stepmother and brother
told Elizabeth what a good dad Todd was he had settled down and married Stacy for the good of his kids Elizabeth even
met with Stacy who divorced Todd and refused to visit him on death row Stacy told Elizabeth 7 years after the trial
that Todd beat her but she still believed he would never hurt the kids Stacy added when the fire occurred
things were good between them and Todd had no reason to set it furthermore Stacy said that the morning of the fire
it was cool out and she recalled that the space heater in the kids's room was powered on more than once she said she
found Amber messing with it well it's weird because it's just happen stance that that Elizabeth gets connected with
Todd and that she's the type of person that will go out of her way to try to figure out this case at least to get
more evidence so she can make a judgment for herself mhm and then she goes well now I think he's innocent and but he's
set to die by the hands of the state yeah she's I mean she's convinced after meeting with his family after meeting
with Stacy reading the trial transcripts that Todd has been railroaded but unfortunately his execution date is
getting closer and she kind of fears that there's nothing that she can do then Todd confesses to her that he
has been hiding this big secret for a decade now Todd said he had lied to investigators about his attempts to
rescue the children he was racked with guilt as Elizabeth told Frontline quote in his mind he couldn't acknowledge that
he didn't you know try to save his children so he can cocked the story that he you know tried to go in and find the
babies and couldn't Todd says quote what I am guilty of is being a coward shortly
after this Elizabeth was in a terrible auto accident and her ability to help Todd came to a screeching halt but
science modernizes and so does fire science before the Todd Willingham murder trial
this on February 10th 1992 the national Fire Protection Association published a groundbreaking document titled NFPA
921 this document compiled by 30 fire experts including John lentini who will come up again contained updated
guidelines for fire investigators that reflected many new advances in fire science the Texas fire Marshall's office
along with most other fire investigatory bodies adopt Ed NFPA 921 as the standard in fire
analysis NFPA 921 was based on fire science not the folklore and gut instinct that dominated fire
investigations for Generations yeah which kind of drives me nuts that it would even be possible that somebody
would be sentenced to death for arson if basically the investigators are just going off of gut instincts and not some
proven science one thing we all need to keep in mind and this is one General misconception that I see often when
talking to a lot of people regarding trial and testimony presented at trial when somebody sits on the stand
and tells you what they think happened we need to keep in mind that even though the prosecution or the defense or even
the judge or the court itself is telling you that so and so is here they are an expert you need to keep in mind that
what you have to do as a juror what your job is as a juror is to take that information and take it into
consideration it doesn't necessarily mean that somebody sitting on the stand is presenting to you the fact that this
is in fact arson or this murder had to be conducted this way because I'm an expert and I say this is how it happened
it's not fact it's one expert's opinion right and then we weigh those opinions against our own feelings and the other
information that is presented the problem you have here in this particular case is there's no other opinion that
was presented at the time now I will say this Todd Willingham is one of the most
unlucky people to ever be tried in in court and I say that because of of this and this this is regardless if you think
he's innocent or guilty M what takes place here is this document that becomes the new standard for fire investigation
becomes the new standard on how you determine if arson was committed this NFPA 921
document this does not go into effect until February of 1992 by this point the investigation at
Todd's home has already been conducted yeah they're going off of the old information these two these two old
school guys went through the scene saw what they saw and then gave their opinion and said hey this fire was set
and we know Todd Willingham was in the home at the time that the fire started he must be the one that started it and
therefore he needs to be arrested he was arrested in January uh January 8th this document goes out in February
now here's where it it becomes a a big uh a big time misstep in my opinion uhhuh yes he's already arrested yes he's
going to be charged however his murder trial the triple homicide trial does not start until what was it August so we
have months that go by that say this these two experts opinion might not be the best opinion out right
basically what states is these guys are going by the old school way so guess what their opinion don't mean [ __ ] and
so again I think um you would think that the the defense lawyers would know about this report and
use this to their their advantage but but a lot of them are defending so many people so who knows yeah that's that's
again where I say it it looks like technically they did their job they represented this man and they they did
put up some fight but then you have to at the end of the day question truly how much of a fight did they provide and
their job as their Duty as an attorney in representing this man is they have a fiduciary duty
to every one of his best interest or what they're supposed to be pushing well yeah and I think here like you said they
they try to get their own expert witness and they go well I agree with the the states yeah cuz he's going off of the
old information I would guess as well right and the thing is you could disprove everything that they say just
by simply going do you go by this new way or the old way oh you go by the old way well guess what that doesn't count
anymore so guess what you're not expert anymore unless you're going by the new way here's the other thing too when
they're dispersing that information I I kind of Wonder even if the defense here's the thing we we were
just talking about you you said to me in yesterday's show so you're saying here on the record that you're not a fire
investigator and arson expert and I said no I only know what I know from this case and a few other Fire cases that
we've covered in the past right the his attorneys Todd's attorneys are not technically fire experts either the
disappointing thing here is that these two experts made their analysis and their opinion in January which led to
his arrest then they are on the stand in August and at no point do they say hey some of the thought on this stuff has
changed right and you know we do see that from time to time especially when you're talking about people that have
that are working in a field where they have 20 25 years experience and then something new comes about they ain't
always on board in the beginning or sometimes ever now speaking of experts this will bring us to a significant
point in our story which is in January of 2004 keep in mind Todd's execution is scheduled for February
17th so we're just weeks away from Texas executing Todd Willingham his appeals have been exhausted by this point we
have his cousin her name is Patricia Cox she saw a fire science uh fire scientist
named Gerald Hurst on TV Dr Hurst was a chemist with a PhD from Cambridge who studied fire from a chemical and
scientific perspective one journalist referred to him as the Godfather of modern arson
science Pat called Hurst and begged him to take a look at Todd's case Hurst agreed to free of charge four weeks
before Todd was scheduled to be executed Hurst received the trial transcripts the
states arson report and a videotape showing the actual fire scene Hurst completely threw out the entire report
that was used to convict Todd he found that its conclusions were not rooted in scientific fact but outdated Concepts
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mates cheers you filthy animals so Dr Hurst he was interviewed by Frontline and he reported his findings in that
interview now here's what he had to say the fire had gone to flashover flashover
left natural patterns on the floor that all post flashover fires tend to leave behind and these were what was
misidentified as the poor patterns he goes on to say that the prosecutor in this case literally believed that the
burn patterns on the floor were in the shape of a pent like some Satanic ritual when you
actually look at the burn pattern that they drew and then you look at where the windows are windows furnish ventilation
to the fire right there's like a ventilation stream so really all what you're looking at in his opinion was
what he calls ventilation patterns he also said that the sample of wood debris from the base of the front
porch that was analyzed the results were positive for a combustible liquid accelerant kerosene
specifically right well that's quite understandable because the porch also had a barbecue on it so likely there was
charcoal lighter fluid there if there was hearse believe that either the lighter fluid spilled or it spilled out
when the container melted but it did not cause the fire this is this is a little
tricky because we have the defense earlier pointing out that there was in fact Char charcoal lighter fluid on the
front porch that could have been spiled by one of the kids right but there's also a grill out there that's it seems
like that's where Todd grilled out was the front porch Todd's feet weren't burned because
if no accelerant was poured on the floor the floor would have been relatively cool until after the flashover occurred
in the bedroom right did you see the video footage of the flashover I did yeah it's amazing how
quickly that room went in went into flames yeah well here's also one sad thing that I would like to point out
when we talk about Todd's feet and that there was no accelerant poured on the floor and that's why you know in his
defense his feet weren't burned his feet are also not burned because he didn't attempt to save anybody right we know
that from his confession to Elizabeth Gilbert so that's at this point talking to Frontline or whoever it doesn't
matter about his feet yeah his feet his feet aren't burned because like he said he's a coward if if we are to believe
him he he didn't set the fire but he didn't try to save anybody the craz glass in the
windows Dr Hurst says is not caused just by extreme heat requiring an accelerent
it's also caused by heated windows that are then sprayed with water from fire hoses causing the glass to Splinter
right and that' be new science information that they would have got in this new report which is horseshit in my
opinion this should have been old science this one piece right here because anybody that's taken like if you
take a glass that that comes out of the hot dishwasher steam cycle immediately and try to pour cold water into it or
fill it up with cold water we've we all see the effect of that right the the sudden change in temperature applied to
Glass will cause it to break Splinter so on and so forth yeah like I said uh or like you said this is definitely
something that they should have already known we also talked about the temperature of the fire and wood fires
only burn so hot that was their evidence stating that the aluminum threshold could not have been melted simply by a
Woodfire had to have been melted due to an accelerant fire he's saying Hurst is saying that
it's a myth that an accelerant would have been needed to melt the aluminum threshold he's pointing out that woodf
fires can burn that hot or hot enough on their own right he also points out and I
think this is where you were going Captain the V patterns that can be found V patterns can be found after a
flashover they are not indicative of a point of origin Dr hurst's report concluded that
the fire that had killed Carmen Cameron and Amber was not and arson in his opinion he stated on Front Line quote
Todd willingham's case falls into that category where there is not one iota of evidence that the fire was arson not one
iota and he added this quote there's nothing to suggest to any reasonable arson investigator that this was an
arson fire it was just a fire it was likely caused by the space heater or faulty electrical wiring this meant that
Todd willing was convicted and sentenced to death without any crime taking place
unfortunately Dr Hurst finished his report only four days before Todd's scheduled execution Todd's appeals
lawyer Walter Reeves this is a different attorney filed several emergency last minute appeals sending Dr hurst's report
to the Texas Board of Pardons and paroles asking for Todd's sentence to be commuted the text Texas Court of
Criminal Appeals as well asking for the execution to be halted and the US Supreme Court and the governor of Texas
office Rick Perry whose office received it with only 88 minutes to spare despite
hurst's findings the Texas appeals court refused to delay the execution the state
court wouldn't hear the case the Board of Pardons and parols denied Todd's petition ah and
astoundingly the Governor Rick Perry declined to Grant Todd a reprieve while the new report was considered okay now
the Rick Perry his office got it I believe on a Friday yeah I think that was the report that went out there but
the report here is that his office received it with 88 minutes to spare okay so an hour less than an hour
and a half before the execution right you wish that these reports got their sooner but here's why I'm on because we
created this system that's flawed and we know it's flawed that's why we have appeals and things like that but here's
this guy that went on trial with gut feelings and not actual scientific evidence it's like it's like saying
that's this is before DNA so therefore I believe the DNA matches and then DNA comes out and we
have scientific proof on when it matches and doesn't and not just some gut feeling and that's what happened here
and it seems to me constantly that the state and the justice system itself doesn't want to examine itself it just
wants to say it it constantly wants to defend itself to say we got it right the first
time well his appeals were exhausted they did examine theirselves as you're as you as you say um he he had several
appeals he did receive different representation during that appeals process right how how adequate was that
um representation you know if they're not it seems pretty thorough to me Walter Reeves filed several emergency last
minute appeals sending them to 1 2 3 4 four different offices no no I mean the fact that all
these offices saw these and go we're not going to we're not going to call a timeout right now we're just moving
forward we got it right moving forward see what I mean right no I I get it I get it where
here's here's the other thing to keep that I would keep in mind anyway that when I'm reviewing this
it Rick Perry's going to have some further involvement in this case or these types of cases
let's say that will call into question his character for me right I wonder when receiving this
report 88 minutes and less than an hour and a half before the execution did he even was it even
reviewed was there even time to review you know what I mean it's like and it's nobody's fault that's just
the way that it worked out that's last minute it is it is very last minute and there's there's no
turning back if somebody if that report is not seen reviewed before the 88th minute
yeah the the other thing too I also want to point out I respect this Dr Hurst I respect
his findings and I believe his findings are correct I will point out though his report also well I shouldn't say also
his report does not provide a point of origin for the fire itself well he believed that it was actually I I think
his well go back to gut feeling is that it was electrical and that to determine that
would have taken minutes is what he claimed cuz you could follow because now everything is exposed so you'd be able
to follow the wire to see where it was faulty at correct I get that but in this report that I cited here he States it
could have been electrical wiring bad wiring or it could have been the space heater right but the reason why he
doesn't have that is because he wasn't able he wasn't physically there he wasn't physically there to Go Through
the Wire so you know I he can only base it off of he's say he's saying had he looked at it been physically there this
is the route he would have taken he would have been able to conclude within minutes if it was faulty wiring right
because if there wasn't faulty wiring then you could point to the space heater so I I'm guessing that there was faulty
wiring but this is one of those weird cases where people believe somebody's innocent or guilty and there's not much
of a conclusion yes this guy is sentenced to death and he he goes through with it I mean like he he is put
to death um and what is what I giving a spoiler so the the the weird thing too while
this is all going on mind you this is starting in January and leading up to the date of execution during this time
frame Stacy his ex-wife now they divorc she comes out publicly and stated that she now believed Todd to be guilty for
years she maintained that he was innocent right even C campaigning for his release by writing to the governor
but now she said after reading the entire trial transcript she changed her mind she finally visited Todd and prison
just weeks before his scheduled execution date and the two exchanged some words Todd asked her not to attend
his execution right and Todd asked her to bury him by you know with his kids she denied both of these requests
Todd later found out that St 's brother signed an affidavit in opposition to his
appeals for clemency saying that Todd had confessed the crime to Stacy this is not true this didn't happen but Todd
believed that uh Stacy had turned on him on February 17th 2004 Todd's parents spent a few hours with him to say
goodbye he told them he didn't want them to worry and that he would be okay okay Todd ate his final meal at 400 p.m.
this was three barbecued pork ribs two orders of onion rings fried okra three beef enchiladas with cheese and two
slices of lemon cream pie well you eat the okra because it's good for you then he was told that Governor Perry refused
his request for a stay that statement makes it sound like it the information that was sent to his office was in fact
review right basically for Todd time is up Todd refused to cooperate and he had to be carried into the execution chamber
shortly after 6:00 p.m. Todd Willingham was executed by lethal injection his final statement was
quote the only statement that I want to make is that I am an innocent man convicted of a crime I did not commit I
have been persecuted for 12 12 years for something I did not do from God's dust I
came and to dust I will return so the Earth shall become my Throne I got to go Road dog I love you Gabby when Todd
finished with this statement he started swearing in the direction of his ex-wife
Stacy who was watching the proceeding contrary to his wishes he said a few sentences that I will not repeat and
then a lethal cocktail was administered in Todd Willingham was pronounced dead at 6:20 p.m. yeah I think she he told
her that he wished that should effing rot in hell yes there it's I think he probably said more than
that that's what they report most of the time it's actually about four sentences
along and it's pretty brutal um the Chicago Tribune later that same year this is on
December 9th 2004 the Tribune had a shocking headline on page one that said Texas man executed
on disproved forensics the second headline stated fire that killed his three children
could have been accidental the story was 16,000 words the newspaper conducted its
own investigation of the Willingham case and hired four fire science experts to review the evidence including John
latini and general Hurst the four experts unanimously found that Willingham was prosecuted and convicted
base primarily on arson theories that have since been refuted and by scientific advances the paper cited that
the original investigation was flawed and the fire was possibly an accident John Jackson the prosecutor in the
Willingham case stuck to his guns even in the face of this report but a jur her in the case felt differently she
questioned if anyone knew about the hearse report prior to the execution adding quote now I will have to live
with this for the rest of my life maybe this man was innocent and end quote the Tribune also interviewed Douglas fog the
assistant fire chief in the Willingham investigation he said that his findings were correct he said fires talk to you
the structure talks to you he said you call that years of experience you don't just pick that knowledge up overnight he
has refused to admit that it is possible that his conclusions were based on erroneous assumptions and outdated
Concepts he told Frontline I don't care how many degrees you have how many books
you may have written this was a set fire yeah this guy is a [ __ ] this is one of
those guys that go my gut feeling tells me that the Earth is flat and and I don't give a [ __ ] what science
says it's ridiculous the coracana police department Sergeant Jimmy Hensley who helped interrogate Todd after the fire
told Frontline quote the thing is we eliminated all those possibilities of gas or accidental things that could have
caused the fire so if they're eliminated and they're not present then it's arson
so I mean this is if you believe this statement then it's like as if arson exists just because the absence of any
known cause right and there's also causes that they didn't check they didn't check the wiring so right and
that that was one big thing that comes out in this whole thing you know the Tribune for the very first time publicly
revealed that fog's report did note possible electrical shorts in two places inside the home right this is a yeah
this is stupid in June of 2005 Governor Perry signed a law establishing the Texas forensic science commission this
govern government agency was impanel to improve forensics in the state and investigate forensic analysts
misconduct this included ensuring that forensic fire investigation techniques were up to date meanwhile as a result of
the Chicago tribunes expose on Todd's case the Innocence Project got involved in trying to poly exonerate Todd it
consulted with fire experts including John lentini in reviewing the arson evidence on May 2nd 2006 the innocent
project released a report from its fire experts that was starkly critical of the
original fire investigation that concluded that quote each and every one of the indicator of arson had been
scientifically proven to be invalid the Innocence Project sent its report to the
tfsc the Texas forensic science commission with a request that they investigate Todd's case Sam bassette the
chair of the board decided to hire Dr Craig Baylor for their first inquiry to look into the case on August 24th 2009
Baylor's report came out he found that the original fire investigation relied on indicators of arson that had since
been disproved the initial investigators fog and Vasquez failed to examine all of
the electrical outlets appliances and wiring in the Willingham house and did not consider other potential causes of
fire as John lentini summarized the Baylor report is point for point a confirmation of the original Hurst
report that all 20 of the indicators were wrong the evidence says this was an accidental fire further Baylor's report
found that the fire investigators did not meet the standard of care for fire investigation at the time vquez findings
are nothing more than a collection of personal beliefs that have nothing to do with science-based fire investigation
this is what Baylor concluded right he also said that a fighing of arson could not be sustained this was very bad news
for Governor Perry he was up for another term in office and look the last thing he wants looming over his reelection is
the Spectre of a possible innocent man being executed under his watch so two days before Dr Baylor was scheduled to
testify before the tfsc about his findings Perry fired chairman Sam bassette and
two others on the commission what a [ __ ] stain Perry named John Bradley this is a
close Ally as besets replacement and the Bor testimony was cancelled this move by Perry backfired
somewhat because when word got out that he had engaged in political maneuvering to avoid publicizing the negligence in
Todd's case the story became a ntional one sparking outrage by anti-de penalty activists on April 14th 2011 the tfsc
released a report that concluded its review of the Willingham case the report acknowledged that their fire
investigation had changed and the willingham's investigators had relied on now outdated science but also found that
there was insufficient evidence that fog and vaset were negligent having used standards accepted in Texas at the time
meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Texas sorry keep going meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Todd's
death sentence when he was on the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals in 1995 agreed in 2010 to convene a court
of inquiry to determine whether Todd had been wrongfully convicted this was in response to an appeal by Todd's family
directly the judge Was preparing an order for exoneration but the third court of
appeals shut this inquiry down on the basis that the judge should recuse himself because he had previously ruled
on the case back in 1995 right and was not permitted to conduct further inquiry or issue his order of
exoneration Captain I can tell by the the the steam coming off my head well and the the the low beer uh count in the
fridge and the clock on the wall that we are running out of some time so I do want to I'm going to summarize something
that's also pretty big in this case remember we talked about Johnny web this guy that comes forward from jail and he
says hey Todd confessed to me that he killed his kids yeah he came home one day and Stacy had done something to one
of them maybe one of the kids was almost dead or even dead and Todd comes up with
this idea let's burn the house down and we're going to hide this whole thing that's basically his
testimony without getting too far into the details of this Johnny Webb eventually does recant that he he
there's a there's a retraction of his testimony right he actually says you know I I was fed some
information and I went along with it and I testified against this guy and I was promised some you know like we said
favor for a favor yeah and he didn't get it he he did receive some uh favors right um you know again
without getting too much into the details of such his case was recommended for an early parole this by the
prosecutor of Todd Willingham he was also hooked up with a somebody that might take care of him once he is on the
outside somebody that provided him with money for things like getting back on his feet so he could find a job getting
a vehicle things of that nature so he did receive some help uh even if you want to go and say that it was from a
third or fourth or even fifth party the problem with Johnny Webb is there will be multiple times that he
will say I was lying when I testified and then later he comes back and says no I wasn't
lying and then he comes back again and says he was lying I don't I can't believe anything the guy says so I think
you throw the whole thing out yeah I think for the most part you throw out any prison type
confession cuz they never seem to go well so the thing here too is in Johnny web's defense
and I know I just said I don't know that I can believe anything he says this is backed up by other individuals that we
have some that have been named in this story and our telling of this case and some that have not been named
unfortunately Johnny Webb was brutally attacked when he was in jail there's evidence to that suggested to me that
this was a man that was very afraid uh possibly even for his life I think that he would have been
easily eily manipulated or maybe even came up with some of it on his own anything he could it was Battle
conditions for this dude and I think he was doing anything he could to to save himself right and what's so pathetic
though is we don't know why those conditions were that way because I I was watching um a dramatization of something
and it it almost seemed as if the the prison put a certain person In Harm's Way knowing that later they're going to
use them to testify against somebody else and that person we just we don't know yet we need a little help with the
trial probably down the line and that's the person we're going to use but they're the ones setting up the really
bad harsh conditions in prison yeah or or failing to understand that there are harsh conditions or or persons in danger
right yeah you know as as as funny as this may sound to to hear um and and this and I bring this up
because this is something that you you get when you talk about inmates on death row but it also goes to the same
standard of people in jail awaiting trial Jeffrey Epstein would be a good example and he's been in the news a
whole lot lately um technically it is the state's Duty it's the state's job to make sure that even if um some is put on
death row even if John piece of [ __ ] Smith is put on death row for multiple murders technically it's the state's job
to keep that man alive so they can carry out the sentence of executing him same thing with this jail house it's the
state's job or the County's job whoever's housing these persons in jail awaiting their trial to keep them safe
to the point that they can actually go to trial you know because just because they're in a jail cell does not mean
mean that they're a bad person it doesn't even mean that they're guilty right they haven't gone to trial yet now
in 2012 Todd's stepmother Eugena Willingham and his cousin Patricia Willingham filed
a petition with the Texas Board of Pardons and parols for a full pardon for Todd they had the full assistance and
support of the Innocence Project but their petition was opposed by Stacy kendle who said that she did not feel
that Todd deserved a pardon the Texas Board of Pardons and paroles voted in March of 2014 and they did deny Todd
Willingham uh a full pardon right because like I said the system never wants to admit that it's wrong it just
refuses to even even when they were so scared to uh go against the new evidence that like West Memphis 3 it's like well
how about we have you admit that you're guilty and then we'll let you out I mean some of this stuff doesn't
make any sense you okay you're going to take three people that you're claiming killed three eight-year-old boys in a
satanic ma Manner and you're going to just say say you're guilty and we'll let you
go it's ridiculous and in this case it's like this you know was this guy a piece
of [ __ ] yes he was a piece of [ __ ] you know and and he deserves to rot in hell
anybody that puts their hand on a woman deserves to run in hell and then if he was beating her up while she's pregnant
he's even worse I mean they cut off his goddamn testicles for all he give [ __ ]
but that doesn't mean that he set this fire it doesn't mean that he's responsible for their deaths now I would
argue that his cowardness is what led to their death it seems to me that if the police sorry I'm getting all frustrated
but it seems to me when the firefighters showed up that they were able to to get
into the house and actually get to the girls and it seems to me that when he was when he was coming to or when he was
waking up because he hears his daughter that he would have had the time to go in
there and get his children out and he chose to be selfish cuz this guy seems to be a selfish selfish piece of [ __ ]
and you can even see when like it's his last words and it's just all about him you know I I I'm innocent of this you
know why you could have just admitted you know look I'm innocent of this but yeah I was a coward and I didn't save
them and maybe I deserve this it's it's frustrating yeah I I absolutely hate this case 100% it was very interesting
to dive into it was very interesting to learn some of the fire science if you want to call it that arson science and
how it's changed throughout the years the where where you hate this case and why you can't feel good about this
case look man I'm not going to lie to you we presented a lot of information that says that this guy was in fact
innocent after presenting a lot of information that says this guy is guilty right the thing about it there's
still to this day people that feel one way or the other it's not it's not a uniform united front here that everybody
is walking arm in- arm hand in hand and singing the Praises of Todd and saying he was innocent of these three murders I
read one interview where there was a person from the area and the way that this was stated made me feel that
there's probably a lot of other people from that area still to this day would that would feel the same way this person
statement was I know that he's dead I know that they executed him and I wish that I could dig him up and we could
kill them two more times just so it would be even three murders and three executions yeah so there are a lot of
people that feel very strongly about this one way or another and I tell you what after spending two weeks looking at
this case and and just being eyeballs deep in this whole mess I can see why people feel strongly
one way or the other so I'm not even going to bother getting into that portion of it where I have some some big
big issues is from things at the start look let's all pretend that we are united front and we all 100% believe
that Willingham that Todd Willingham was innocent and I don't want to victim blame if that would be the case but one
you know if you give an a man enough rope sometimes he hangs himself I think what happened here
is if he was telling the truth and he was innocent one and two he was a coward and he fled the home what does he do on
that first day of questioning he gives a very long story of the motions and the actions that he did while still inside
the home trying to save his children failing to do so and then ending up on the front lawn and then I think we have
a problem where Not only was the deck stacked against Willingham like we said regarding the trial in a sense the deck
is then stacked against the fire inspectors as well because as you're going through and you're looking at
everything and I know that the one fire inspector said the fire talks to you the
structure talks to you right maybe there's a building that can help you if there's fires and buildings talking to
you anyway and I know he's just using those terms but when you're going through this and it is at that time the
fire science to this man's knowledge and to the other fire investigators knowledge is based off of years of
experience past experiences things that they have seen witnessed and and worked on in the past so in a sense it is a gut
feeling it's one man or two men's interpretation of what they believe that they're seeing but you go through and
every piece every burn mark every questionable thing is a mystery to you but what is not a mystery is you have
this long statement from a man who says he was inside the home woke up around the time that the
fire seemed to start and he made an attempt to save his children he he had movements and actions
that were an attempt to save his children ends up on the front lawn a bit of that too man as an
investigator is you're taking his statements and you're looking at the house and you're
going what he said doesn't match up with what we are finding inside this house yeah he must be lying well why would he
lie cuz he set the fire and he killed his children right so not to victim blame here if in fact
Todd Willingham was a victim but had he just been up front in the beginning and said look I woke up and
the place was on fire I don't know what the hell happened it was you know I got burned a little bit and I ran out front
and then I was too chicken [ __ ] to go back inside right and that that the the investigation itself regardless of of
fires and buildings talking to this man might have gone a different way right and also I think he was pretending
outside and making a scene to cover up the fact that he was a coward and then that came off as disingenuous so because
it was right disingenuous the other thing too captain that that is terrible you know I just
reference how strongly some people in the area still feel to this day about his guilt
and we even have the one juror who says it wasn't a question about his guilt after I figured out that I don't really
think he attempted to save his children what I'm getting at is I I find I'm with you and and I'm not going to go
as far to blame it on the system there were some areas there were plenty of points you're absolutely right there are
plenty of points and and moments in time where this could have corrected itself or at least put it on freeze mode and
reexamine the whole thing and that didn't happen and that is horrible but when we say that our system is
flawed there's there's everybody knows that there's no one out there that denies that one bit and when this system
was set up and put in place if anybody believed that they were putting in place a Flawless system well that's a [ __ ]
right but what we attempt to do over over time and we learn with experience we try to mold the system to uh get
better with time and to do what we set it up to do in the process what what I'm getting at here is
I find that the trial itself was not a great trial but that seems to be for my opinion more on the defense side it
looks like the prosecution is putting forth the case against this man that was presented to him by investigators and
the witnesses that this prosecutor interviewed minus that of Johnny Webb because that's a whole another story we
don't know that portion of it 100% Johnny Webb can't be believed this prosecutor could be corrupt and there
are signs pointing to that but Johnny we uh not Johnny web uh Todd willingham's Council again I think they did an okay
job they didn't do the best job I think that given what what we have people to this day saying let's dig them up and
execute him two more times that to me is proof that this trial should have been moved change a venue get this thing away
this community that immediate area is too messed up and distraught by the death of three children to probably
provide an accurate jury pull and the thing too it just I mean they didn't call hardly any Witnesses I
don't know it's just it's it's an aggravating case because no matter how you spin it either three kids were
murdered or an innocent man was put to [Music] death everybody thanks for joining us in
the garage spending your quality time with us be kind to everybody we'll see you back here next week until then be
good be kind and don't [Music] litter you can live out your Master Chef dreams when you find a professional on Angie to
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Cameron Todd Willingham /// Part 2 /// 353

Part 2 of 2

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ust days before Christmas a horrible house fire claimed the lives of three very innocent victims. Later fire inspectors determined that the fire was set. Someone was responsible for the fire and for the murder of three. Join us in the garage as we discuss one of the most controversial cases from Texas. Beer of the Week - Texas Red from Rahr & Sons Brewing Co. Garage Grade - 3 and a half bottle caps out of 5

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Brief Summary

Cameron Todd Willingham was executed for a fire that may have been accidental, raising questions about justice and forensic science.

Key points

A Tragic House Fire. Three children perish in a house fire just before Christmas, leaving their father to escape.
The Defense's Struggles. The defense struggles to present a strong case, relying on limited witnesses and funds.
Todd's Confession. Todd confesses to Elizabeth that he lied about trying to save his children.
The New Standard for Fire Investigation. The NFPA 921 document changes the standards for fire investigations, but it's too late for Todd.
Todd Willingham's Last Words. Before his execution, Todd proclaimed his innocence, saying he was wrongfully convicted.
The Tribune's Shocking Headline. The Chicago Tribune revealed that Todd was executed based on disproved forensics.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I don't feel that I should have to.

Todd's response when asked if he intended to testify.

6:52WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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