Cameron Todd Willingham /// Part 2 /// 353 | Forensic Files

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talk some true crime [Music] a tragic house fire just two days before Christmas three little children trapped
inside a father cannot get his children out but he somehow manages to escape the
children die but the man is barely injured and we discussed yesterday things at his home were less than
respectable people began to judge this man he was arrested where we left off yesterday we
had covered the early stages of the trial we presented the prosecution's case today let's start with the defense
Todd's attorneys attempted to poke holes in the arson investigators findings but
they did not present any expert Witnesses David Martin later stated that he had limited funds to hire a rebuttal arson
expert and the one that they hired agreed that the prosecution's arson analysis was correct
Martin got fog to agree that he could not say that Amber did not set the fire but that was all he could get
Martin did present into evidence photos of the front porch of the house showing that there was a charcoal grill and a
melted bottle of lighter fluid on the front porch attempting to show that the puddle patterns found on the floor of
the porch and hallway could have been from spilled lighter fluid sprayed around by one of the kids or kerosene
from an oil lamp found in the house that had admittedly been ignored by investigators also Martin pointed out
both Todd and Stacy were smokers and cigarette lighters were readily available throughout the house
Amber could climb over the baby gate in the doorway of her room she could have tried to light the old
lamp and it spilled in the process Martin also asked fog on cross-examination if the witness knew
that the type of lighter fluid found at the house had been recalled because the flip top lid was too easily opened by
children Martin went after Vasquez as well challenging his conclusions about the
fire's point of origin and Todd's lack of burns on his feet the defense only presented two witnesses
one was Stacy's cousin who babysat for the family she testified that there was a kerosene lamp in the house and also
that Todd would never have set that fire another was a jailhouse informant who testified that Johnny Webb the state's
first witness had been fed his information and only testified against Todd because he was under threat from
some deputies at the end of the defense's case there was a very strange interlude in which
Martin called Todd to the stand out of the presence of the jury but with the courtroom full of Observers and
asked him if he intended to testify Todd responded quote I don't feel that I should have to I don't feel that I need
to and quote with that the defense rested yeah I found that a little odd but I think what they were trying to do
was to prove the point that the burden is on the prosecution and that this guy that's on trial for the you know really
a heinous murder of his children is saying hey look I don't think you met burden of proof yeah this could have
been orchestrated by the defense the only issue I take with that is that the jury's not present so I don't know what
effect it would have on the case unless they're trying to prove a point to the judge
that there was not enough evidence to convict right later it emerged that Dunn and Martin had dissuaded Todd from
testifying believing that he would not make a sympathetic witness so with that you also have to wonder
if they're just doing their due diligence where he is saying that he wants to testify behind
closed doors to his attorneys and they are trying to talk him out of it to which they wanted it on the record for
court record to cover their own butts that they at least gave him the attempt the the chance to testify and he the
client declined right I I think the reason why they don't want him to testify is
he comes off as a liar right away to everybody and that's before the people are really suspicious that he might have
caused this fire so and then the rumors that he constantly changed his story as a lawyer probably going we don't know
what he's capable of saying on the stand yeah yeah this is one of those one of those stories where I feel like you know
technically the defense team did their jobs but yeah I mean regardless if you think Todd is guilty or not I have to
ask myself and everybody else out there the question do you think they did a good job they they put up only one
character witness a teenager no Experts of Their Own after the trial right and I felt like
they could have we have statements from his wife which you would think that if she thinks he's
responsible for this that she would hate him you'd think at some point they would get
her to say in court you know yes he was a he was a piece of [ __ ] and he beat me and he thought he
was Billy badass with his shitty mullet but he thought the world of his daughters and he wouldn't have done this
he wouldn't have killed his daughters that's interesting for the defense I guess in their in their defense it's a
it's a constant Battle of trying to determine how much sympathy the jury is going to find
in a witness or your client in comparison to the information that they're being told by that witness or
the client at the same point where maybe somebody like me might say well we know he was abusive to her and
she still says he couldn't have done it right that carries a lot of weight for me there's other people on the opposite
side of the fence would that would then say well we have proof we have proof that
he's abusive he's a monster and I I actually believe that points more toward that he did do it even though she says
he couldn't have right or is she just saying this out of fear because if he gets out what's going to happen to her
look they try to poke holes and the experts uh opinion right but like you said they didn't call their own expert
and I think that is probably the biggest downfall and that might have been out of
their hands and I know that's scary to think about uh but it's probably the reality maybe not 100 in this case but
it's the reality in a lot of cases that have gone on in our system throughout the years
obviously Todd didn't have any money his defense was provided by the state they did say look we we had a very small
budget we used a portion of that to pay an arson expert however that expert said he agreed with the
findings of the prosecution of the of the prosecution's witnesses and then boom our budget's done we have no more
money if Todd had been a rich man and if there were a lot of money to fund his defense he'd be a rich piece of [ __ ]
they would have found somebody to dispute some of those expert findings Yeah the more I learn about our justice
system and Justice systems around the world one thing that seems to be very clear is the only way for you to
actually get a fair trial is to have money that that's a pretty strong statement I think most would agree with
you um I do in this situation I don't know if I would say that 100 across the board
one thing I do not agree with at all is after the trial Todd's lawyers were vocal about the fact that they did not
believe their client was innocent Dunn said to an interviewer quote to me he was not repentant he had this
attitude and error about him that he was wrongfully charged and quote even worse
the lead defense counsel David Martin said quote the real fact of the matter is that Willingham was guilty he wasn't
innocent he really set that fire and killed those kids end quote the jurors agreed
and post-trial interviews they said there was never a question as to Todd's guilt one juror Laura Marx said she
would have found Todd guilty even without the arson finding solely because he did not try to save his children
the deck it seems was stacked against Todd from the start in all the trial lasted just three days
the jury deliberated for just 77 minutes wow Cameron Todd Willingham was found to
be guilty every time I think I know most most of the things about the case then you throw something out that I didn't
hear 77 minutes is not that long well that's because I'm making it up as I go along
oh yeah okay in so it's quite easy I think they um I thought I think they thought about this for about 77 minutes
in the penalty phase prosecutor Jackson painted Todd as a violent psychopath and he brought in a medical expert to
testify to this psychiatrist Dr James Gregson testified that Todd was a quote extremely severe
psychopath the psychologist Tim Gregory testified that the posters on Todd's wall showed violence and death he said
many times individuals that have a lot of this type of art have interest in satanic type activities
so again just one of a bazillion crimes where we see something as simple as some
artwork with skulls on it right and somebody's saying that there's a chance that this guy is a psychopath that he's
a Satan worshiper um I have that cool skull on my kitchen table I'm going to throw it away you
know what I can't ever you know he's into the devil right I I guess I guess to be fair
um I don't think that the psychopath determination was based solely off of these posters obviously this guy's
beating his wife repeatedly and possibly very likely could be a psychopath and possibly beating her while she's
pregnant now here's where we get more character Witnesses this is because we have the penalty phase right so several
members of Todd's family they would take the stand here asking the judge to spare
Todd from the death penalty this time it did include Stacy Jackson proceeded to grill her about the
tattoos Todd had he asked about the significance of the very large tattoo of a skull encircled
by some kind of serpent Stacy responded that it was simply just a tattoo it didn't mean anything yeah
the tattoo what she should have said is that tattoos as shitty as his haircut prosecutor John Jackson never wavered
from his conviction that Todd was guilty the supposed pentagram on the floor and
the Satanist image posters on his walls were just icing on the cake the jury sentenced Todd to death after
deliberating for less than two hours he was then moved to the Texas state prison
at Huntsville to await his execution baton he's gonna get a pen pal once he's in prison right well in 1999 a 47 year
old playwright named Elizabeth Gilbert decided to do a good deed and participate in a program where people
become pen pals with death row prisoners she was assigned to Todd Willingham who
by now was on death row for the last seven years the two struck up in unlikely friendship
Elizabeth began looking into Todd's case after she visited him in prison and found him to be clean cut polite
she just thought he was a nice young man and he was adamant that he was innocent
he's been fooling people for a while she read the trial transcripts and spoke with his family and she was horrified at
what she found Gilbert concluded that Todd's trial was completely unfair for one thing the psychiatrist who testified
that Todd was a psychopath had never actually met Todd at all that seems like it should be part of the
requirement right to diagnose somebody as a psychopath yeah well I've been diagnosing people as pieces of [ __ ] for
a long time I never met any of them and then we have Dr Gregson who testified for the prosecution and more than 100
death penalty cases so this earned him the nickname of Dr Death and in 1995 three years after
willingham's trial Gregson was expelled from the American Psychiatric association for violating ethics
turns out Gregson repeatedly arrived at a psychiatric diagnosis without examining the individuals in question
and for indicating while testifying in court as an expert witness that he could predict with 100 certainty that
individuals would engage in future violent Acts to top that off the supposed satanic imagery found in
Todd's home and presented to the jury was actually a Led Zeppelin and an Iron Maiden poster
Todd's stepmother and brother told Elizabeth what a good dad Todd was he had settled down and married Stacy
for the good of his kids Elizabeth even met with Stacy who divorced Todd and refused to visit him on death row
Stacy told Elizabeth seven years after the trial that Todd beat her but she still believed he would never hurt the
kids Stacy added when the fire occurred things were good between them and Todd had no reason to set it furthermore
Stacy said that the morning of the fire it was cool out and she recalled that the space heater in the kids room was
powered on more than once she said she found Amber messing with it well it's weird because it just happened stance
that that Elizabeth gets connected with Todd and that she's the type of person that will go out of her way to try to
figure out this case at least to get more evidence so she can make a judgment for herself and then she goes well now I
think he's innocent and but he's set to die by the hands of the state yeah she's
I mean she's convinced after meeting with his family after meeting with Stacy reading the trial transcripts that Todd
has been railroaded but unfortunately his execution date is getting closer and she kind of fears that there's nothing
that she can do then Todd confesses to her that he has been hiding this big secret for a decade
now Todd said he had lied to investigators about his attempts to rescue the children
he was racked with guilt as Elizabeth told Frontline quote in his mind he couldn't acknowledge that he didn't you
know tried to save his children so he concocted the story that he you know tried to go in and find the babies and
couldn't Todd says quote what I am guilty of is being a coward shortly after this Elizabeth was in a
terrible auto accident and her ability to help Todd came to a screeching halt but
science modernizes and so does fire science before the Todd Willingham murder trial
this on February 10 1992 the National Fire Protection Association published a groundbreaking document titled NFPA 921
this document compiled by 30 fire experts including John lentini who will come up again contained updated
guidelines for fire investigators that reflected many new advances in fire science the Texas Fire Marshal's Office
along with most other fire investigatory bodies adopted NFPA 921 as the standard
in fire analysis NFPA 921 was based on fire science not the folklore and gut instinct that
dominated fire investigations for Generations yeah which kind of drives me nuts that it would even be possible that
somebody would be sentenced to death for arson if basically the investigators are
just going off of gut instincts and not some proven science one thing we all need to keep in mind and this is one
General misconception that I see often when talking to a lot of people regarding trial and testimony presented
at trial when somebody sits on the stand and tells you what they think happened we need to keep in mind that even though
the prosecution or the defense or even the judge or the court itself is telling you that so and so is here they are an
expert you need to keep in mind that what you have to do as a juror what your job is
as a juror is to take that information and take it into consideration it doesn't necessarily mean that
somebody sitting on the stand is presenting to you the fact that this is in fact arson or this murder had to be
conducted this way because I'm an expert and I say this is how it happened it's not fact it's one expert's opinion
right and then we weigh those opinions against our own feelings and the other information that is presented the
problem you have here in this particular case is there's no other opinion that was presented at the time now I will say
this Todd Willingham is one of the most unlucky people to ever be tried in in court and
I say that because of this and this this is regardless if you think he's innocent
or guilty what takes place here is this document that becomes the new standard for fire
investigation becomes the new standard on how you determine if arson was committed this NFPA 921 document
this does not go into effect until February of 1992. by this point the investigation at Todd's home has
already been conducted yeah they're going off of the old information these two these two old school guys went
through the scene saw what they saw and then gave their opinion and said hey this fire was set and we know Todd
Willingham was in the home at the time that the fire started he must be the one that started it and therefore he needs
to be arrested he was arrested in January uh January 8th this document goes out in February now
here's where it becomes a big uh a big time misstep in my opinion uh-huh yes he's already arrested yes he's going
to be charged however his murder trial the triple homicide trial does not start until what was it August so we have
months that go by that say this these two experts opinion might not be the best opinion out there right and
basically what states is these guys are going by the old school way so guess what
their opinion don't mean [ __ ] and so I again I think um you would think that the defense lawyers
would know about this report and use this to their their advantage but but a lot of them are defending so many people
so who knows yeah that's that's again where I say it it looks like technically they did their
job they represented this man and they they did put up some fight but then you have to at the end of the day question
truly how much of a fight did they provide and their job and their Duty as an attorney in representing this man is
they have a fiduciary duty to every one of his best interests or what they're supposed to be pushing right
well yeah and I think here like you said they they try to get their own expert witness and they go well I
agree with the the states yeah because he's going off of the old information I would guess as well right and the thing
is you could disprove everything that they say just by simply going do you go by this new way or the old way
oh you go by the old way well guess what that doesn't count anymore so guess what
you're not an expert anymore unless you're going by the new way well here's the other thing too when they're
dispersing that information I I kind of Wonder even if the defense here's the thing we we were just talking
about you you said to me in yesterday's show so you're saying here on the record
that you're not a fire investigator an arson expert and I said no I only know what I know from this case and a few
other Fire cases that we've covered in the past right the his attorneys Todd's attorneys are not technically fire
experts either the disappointing thing here is that these two experts made their analysis in
their opinion in January which led to his arrest then they are on the stand in August and at no point do they say hey
some of the thought on this stuff has changed right and you know we do see that from time to time especially when
you're talking about people that have that are working in a field where they have 20 25 years experience and then
something new comes about they ain't always on board in the beginning or sometimes ever now speaking
of experts this will bring us to a significant point in our story which is in January of 2004.
keep in mind Todd's execution is scheduled for February 17th so we're just weeks away from Texas
executing Todd Willingham his appeals have been exhausted by this point we have his cousin her name is
Patricia Cox she saw a fire science fire scientist named Gerald Hurst on TV Dr Hurst was a chemist with a PhD from
Cambridge who studied fire from a chemical and scientific perspective one journalist referred to him as the
Godfather of modern arson science Pat called Hearst and begged him to take a look at Todd's case
Hearst agreed to free of charge four weeks before Todd was scheduled to be executed Hearst received the trial
transcripts the state's arson report and a videotape showing the actual fire scene
first completely throughout the entire report that was used to convict Todd he found that its conclusions were not
rooted in scientific fact but outdated Concepts and myths [Music] [Music] all right we're back cheers mates cheers
you filthy animals so Dr Hurst he was eventually interviewed by Frontline and he reported
his findings in that interview now here's what he had to say the fire had gone to flash over
flashover left natural patterns on the floor that all post flashover fires tend to leave behind and these were what was
misidentified as the poor patterns he goes on to say that the prosecutor in this case literally believed that the
burn patterns on the floor were in the shape of a pentagram like some Satanic ritual
when you actually look at the burn pattern that they drew and then you look at where the windows are windows furnish
ventilation to the fire right there's like a ventilation stream so really all what you're looking at in
his opinion was what he calls ventilation patterns he also said that the sample of wood
debris from the base of the front porch that was analyzed the results were positive for a
combustible liquid accelerant kerosene specifically right well that's quite understandable because the porch also
had a barbecue on it so likely there was charcoal lighter fluid there if there was Hearst believed that either the
lighter fluid spilled or it spilled out when the container melted but it did not
cause the fire this is this is a little tricky because we have the defense earlier pointing out
that there was in fact charcoal lighter fluid on the front porch that could have
been spilled by one of the kids right but there's also a grill out there that's it seems like that's where Todd
grilled out was the front porch weren't burned because if no accelerant was poured on the floor the floor would
have been relatively cool until after the flashover occurred in the bedroom right
did you see the video footage of the flashover I did yeah it's amazing how quickly that
room went and went into flames yeah well here's also one sad thing that I would like to point out when we talk
about Todd's feet and that there was no accelerant poured on the floor and that's why
you know in his defense his feet weren't burnt his feet are also not burned because he didn't attempt to save
anybody right we know that from his confession to Elizabeth Gilbert so that's at this point talking to
Frontline or whoever it doesn't matter about his feet Dad's feet his feet aren't burned because like he said he's
a coward if if we are to believe him he he didn't set the fire but he didn't try
to save anybody the crazed glass and the windows Dr Hurst says has not caused just by
extreme heat requiring an accelerant it's also caused by heated windows that are then sprayed with water from fire
hoses causing the glass to Splinter right and that'd be new science information that they would have got in
this new report which is horseshit in my opinion this should have been old science this one piece right here
because anybody that's taken like if you take a glass that that comes out of the
hot dishwasher steam cycle immediately and try to pour cold water into it or fill it up with cold water we've we all
see the effect of that right the the sudden change in temperature applied to Glass will cause it to break Splinter so
on and so forth yeah like I said uh or like you said this is definitely something that they should have already
known we also talked about the temperature of the fire and wood fires only burned so
hot that was their evidence stating that the aluminum threshold could not have been melted simply by a wood fire had to
have been melted due to an accelerant fire he's saying Hurst is saying that it's a
myth that an accelerant would have been needed to melt the aluminum threshold he's pointing out that wood fires can
burn that hot or hot enough on their own right he also points out and I think this is where you were going Captain the
V patterns that can be found V patterns can be found after a flashover they are not indicative of a point of origin
Dr hurst's report concluded that the fire that had killed Carmen Cameron and Amber was not an arson in his opinion he
stated on Front Line quote Todd willingham's case falls into that category where there is not one iota of
evidence that the fire was arson not one iota and he added this quote there's nothing to suggest to any reasonable
arson investigator that this was an arson fire it was just a fire it was likely caused by the space heater or
faulty electrical wiring this meant that Todd Willingham was convicted and sentenced to death without any crime
taking place unfortunately Dr Hurst finished his report only four days before Todd's scheduled execution
Todd's appeals lawyer Walter Reeves this is a different attorney filed several emergency last minute
appeals sending Dr hurst's report to the Texas Board of Pardons and paroles asking for Todd's sentence to be
commuted the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals as well asking for the execution to be halted and the U.S Supreme Court
and the governor of Texas office Rick Perry whose office received it with only 88 minutes to spare
despite her's findings the Texas appeals court refused to delay the execution the
state court wouldn't hear the case the Board of Pardons and paroles denied Todd's petition
and astoundingly the Governor Rick Perry declined to Grant Todd a reprieve while
the new report was considered okay now the Rick Perry his office got it I believe on a Friday yeah I think that
was the report that went out there but the report here is that his office received it with 88 minutes to spare
okay so an hour less than an hour and a half before the execution right you wish
that these reports got there sooner but here's why I'm on because we created this system that's flawed and
we know it's flawed that's why we have appeals and things like that but here's this guy that went on trial with gut
feelings and not actual scientific evidence it's like it's like saying that's this is before DNA so therefore I
believe the DNA matches and then DNA comes out and we have scientific proof on when it matches and
does it and not just some gut feeling and that's what happened here and it seems to me constantly that the state
and the justice system itself doesn't want to examine itself it just wants to say
it it constantly wants to defend itself to say we got it right the first time well his appeals were exhausted they did
examine theirselves as your as you as you say um he had several appeals he did receive
different representation during that appeals process right how how adequate was that
um representation you know if they're not it seems pretty thorough to me Walter Reeves filed
several emergency last minute appeals sending them to one two three four four different
offices no no I mean the fact that all these offices saw these and go We're not gonna we're not
going to call a timeout right now we're just moving forward we got it right moving forward
so I mean right no I I get it I get it where here's here's the other thing to keep
that I would keep in mind anyway that when I'm reviewing this it Rick Perry is going to have some
further involvement in this case or these types of cases let's say that we'll call in a question his
character for me right I wonder when receiving this report 88 minutes and less than an hour and a half
before the execution did he even was it even reviewed was there even time to review you know what
I mean it's like and it's nobody's fault that's just the way that it worked out that's pretty last minute
it is it is very last minute and there's there's no turning back if somebody if that report is not seen
reviewed before the 88th minute yeah the other thing too I also want to point out
I respect this Dr Hurst I respect his findings and I believe his findings are correct
I will point out though his report also well I shouldn't say also his report does not provide a point of
origin for the fire itself well he believed that it was actually I I think his will go back to gut feeling is that it
was electrical and that to determine that would have taken minutes is what he claimed because
you could follow because now everything is exposed so you'd be able to follow the wire to see where it was faulty at
correct I get that but in this report that I cited here he States it could have been electrical wiring bad wiring
or it could have been the space heater right but the reason why he doesn't have that is because he wasn't he wasn't
physically there he wasn't physically there to Go Through the Wire so you know I he can only base it off of he's saying
he's saying had he looked at it been physically there this is the route he would have taken he would have been
able to conclude within minutes if it was faulty wiring right because if there wasn't faulty wiring then you could
point to the space heater so I I'm guessing that there was faulty wiring but this is one of those weird
cases where people believe somebody's innocent or guilty and there's not much of a conclusion yes this guy is
sentenced to death and he he goes through with it I mean like he he is put to death
um and what is what I was saying giving a spoiler alert so the the weird thing too while this is
all going on mind you this is starting in January and leading up to the date of execution during this time frame Stacy
his ex-wife now their divorce she comes out publicly and stated that she now believed Todd to be guilty for years she
maintained that he was innocent right even campaigning for his release by writing to the governor but now she said
after reading the entire trial transcript she changed her mind she finally visited Todd in prison just
weeks before his scheduled execution date and the two exchanged some words Todd asked her not to attend his
execution right and Todd asked her to bury him by you know with his kids she denied both of these requests Todd
later found out that Stacy's brother signed an affidavit in opposition to his appeals for clemency saying that Todd
had confessed the crime to Stacy this is not true this didn't happen but Todd believed that uh Stacy had turned on him
on February 17 2004 Todd's parents spent a few hours with him to say goodbye he told them he didn't want them to
worry and that he would be okay Todd ate his final meal at 4 pm this was three barbecued pork ribs two orders of
onion rings fried okra three beef enchiladas with cheese and two slices of lemon cream pie while you eat the okra
because it's good for you then he was told that Governor Perry refused his request for a stay that statement makes
it sound like it the information that was sent to his office was in fact reviewed right
basically for Todd time is up Todd refused to cooperate and he had to be carried into the execution chamber
shortly after 6 PM Todd Willingham was executed by a lethal injection his final statement was quote
the only statement that I want to make is that I am an innocent man convicted of a crime I did not commit I have been
persecuted for 12 years for something I did not do from God's dust I came into dust I will return so the Earth shall
become my Throne I gotta go Road dog I love you Gabby when Todd finished with this statement he started swearing in
the direction of his ex-wife Stacy who was watching the preceding contrary to his wishes
he said a few sentences that I will not repeat and then a lethal cocktail was administered and Todd Willingham was
pronounced dead at 6 20 PM yeah I think she he told her that he wished that should
F and rot in hell yes there it's I think he probably said more than that yeah that's what they
report most of the time it's actually about four sentences along and it's pretty brutal
um the Chicago Tribune later that same year this is on December 9th 2004. the Tribune had a shocking
headline on page one that said Texas man executed on disproved forensics the second headline stated fire that
killed his three children could have been accidental the story was sixteen thousand words the
newspaper conducted its own investigation of the Willingham case and hired four fire science experts to
review the evidence including John latini and general Hearst the four experts unanimously found that
Willingham was prosecuted and convicted based primarily on arson theories that have since been uh refuted and by
scientific advances the paper cited that the original investigation was flawed and the fire
was possibly an accident John Jackson the prosecutor in the Willingham case stuck to his guns even
in the face of this report but a juror in the case felt differently she questioned if anyone knew about the
hearse report prior to the execution adding quote now I will have to live with this for the rest of my life maybe
this man was innocent and end quote the Tribune also interviewed Douglas Falk the assistant fire chief in the
Willingham investigation he said that his findings were correct he said fires talk to you the structure
talks to you he said you call that years of experience you don't just pick that knowledge up overnight he has refused to
admit that it is possible that his conclusions were based on erroneous assumptions and outdated Concepts
he told Frontline I don't care how many degrees you have how many books you may have written this
was a set fire yeah this guy is a [ __ ] this is one of those guys that go my gut
feeling tells me that the Earth is flat and and I don't give a [ __ ] what science
says uh it's ridiculous the Corsicana Police Department Sergeant Jimmy Hensley who helped interrogate
Todd after the fire told Frontline quote the thing is we eliminated all those possibilities of gas or accidental
things that could have caused the fire so if they're eliminated and they're not present then it's arson
so I mean this is if you believe this statement then it's like as if arson exists just because the
absence of any known cause right and there's also causes that they didn't check they didn't check the wiring right
and that that was one big thing that comes out in this whole thing you know the Tribune for the very first time
publicly revealed that fogg's report did no possible electrical shorts in two places inside the home right this is a
yeah this is stupid in June of 2005 Governor Perry signed a law establishing the Texas forensic science commission
this govern government agency was a panel to improve forensics in the state and investigate forensic analysts
misconduct this included ensuring that forensic fire investigation techniques were up to
date meanwhile as a result of the Chicago Tribune's expose on Todd's case the Innocence Project got involved in trying
to posthumously exonerate Todd it consulted with fire experts including John lentini in reviewing the arson
evidence on May 2nd 2006 the innocent project released a report from its fire experts
that was starkly critical of the original fire investigation that concluded that quote each and every one
of the indicators of arson had been scientifically proven to be invalid the Innocence Project sent its report to the
tfsc the Texas forensic science commission with a request that they investigate Todd's case Sam Bessette the
chair of the board decided to hire Dr Craig Baylor for their first inquiry to look into the case
on August 24 2009 Baylor's report came out he found that the original fire investigation relied on indicators of
arson that had since been disproved the initial investigators Fogg and Vasquez failed to examine all of the
electrical outlets appliances and wiring in the Willingham house and did not consider other potential causes of Fire
as John lentini summarized the Baylor report is point for point a confirmation of the original Hearst report that all
20 of the indicators were wrong the evidence says this was an accidental fire further Baylor's report found that the
fire investigators did not meet the standard of care for fire investigation at the time
vasquez's findings are nothing more than a collection of personal beliefs that have nothing to do
with science-based fire investigation this is what Baylor concluded right he also said that a finding of arson could
not be sustained this was very bad news for Governor Perry he was up for another
term in office and look the last thing he wants looming over his re-election is the Specter of a
possible innocent man being executed under his watch so two days before Dr Baylor was
scheduled to testify before the tfsc about his findings Perry fired chairman Sam Bessette and
two others on the commission what a [ __ ] stain Perry named John Bradley this is a
close Ally as beset's replacement and the Baylor testimony was canceled this move by Perry backfired somewhat
because when word got out that he had engaged in political maneuvering to avoid publicizing the negligence in
Todd's case the story became a national one sparking outrage by anti-death penalty activists
on April 14 2011 the tfsc released a report that concluded its review of the Willingham case the report acknowledged
that their fire investigation had changed and the willinghams investigators had relied on now outdated
science but also found that there was insufficient evidence that fog and Vasquez were negligent having used
standards accepted in Texas at the time meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Texas
meanwhile a judge who had voted to uphold Todd's death sentence when he was on the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals
in 1995 agreed in 2010 to convene a court of inquiry to determine whether Todd had
been wrongfully convicted this was in response to an appeal by Todd's family directly
the judge Was preparing an order for exoneration but the third court of appeals shut this
inquiry down on the basis that the judge should recuse himself because he had previously ruled on the case back in
1995 right and was not permitted to conduct further inquiry or issue his order of exoneration
Captain I can tell by the the steam coming off my head well in the the low beer uh count in the fridge and the
clock on the wall that we are running out of some time so I do want to I'm going to summarize something that's also
pretty big in this case remember we talked about Johnny Webb this guy that comes forward from jail and he says hey
Todd confessed to me that he killed his kids yeah he came home one day and Stacy
had done something to one of them maybe one of the kids was almost dead or even dead and Todd comes up with this idea
let's burn the house down and we're gonna hide this whole thing that's basically his testimony
without getting too far into the details of this Johnny Webb eventually does recant that
he he there's a there's a retraction of his testimony right he actually says you
know I I was fed some information and I went along with it and I testified against this guy and I was promised some
you know like we said favor for a favor yeah and he didn't get it he he did receive some uh
favors right um you know again without getting too much into the details of such his case
was recommended for an early parole this by the prosecutor of Todd Willingham he
was also hooked up with a somebody that might take care of him once he is on the
outside somebody that provided him with money for things like getting back on his feet so he could find a job getting
a vehicle things of that nature so he did receive some help uh even if you want to go and say that
it was from a third or fourth or even fifth party the problem with Johnny Webb is there
will be multiple times that he will say I was lying when I testified and then later he comes back and says no I wasn't
lying and then he comes back again and says he was lying I don't I can't believe anything the guy
says so I think you throw the whole thing out yeah I think for the most part you throw out any
prison type confession because they never seem to go well so the thing here too is in Johnny Webb's
defense and I know I just said I don't know that I can believe anything he says this is backed up by other individuals
that we have some that have been named in this story and are telling of this case and some that have not been named
unfortunately Johnny Webb was brutally attacked when he was in jail there's evidence to that suggested to me that
this was a man that was very afraid uh possibly even for his life I think that he would have been easily
manipulated or maybe even came up with some of it on his own anything he could it was Battle
conditions for this dude and I think he was doing anything he could to to save himself right and what's so pathetic
though is we don't know why those conditions were that way because I I was watching
um a dramatization of something and it it almost seemed as if the the prison put a certain person In
Harm's Way knowing that later they're going to use them to testify against somebody else and that person we just we
don't know yet we need a little help with the trial probably down the line and that's the person we're going to use
but they're the ones setting up the really bad harsh conditions in prison yeah or or failing to understand that
there are harsh conditions or or persons in danger right yeah you know as as funny as this may
sound to to hear um and and this and I I bring this up because this is something that you you
get when you talk about inmates on death row but it also goes to the same standard of
people in jail awaiting trial Jeffrey Epstein would be a good example and he's been in the news a whole lot lately
um technically it is the state's Duty it's the state's job to make sure that even if
um somebody is put on death row even if John piece of [ __ ] Smith is put on death
row for multiple murders technically it's the state's job to keep that man alive so they can carry out the
sentence of executing him same thing with this jailhouse it's the state's job or the County's job
whoever's housing these persons in jail awaiting their trial to keep them safe to the point that they can actually go
to trial you know because just because they're in a jail cell does not mean that they're a
bad person it doesn't mean that they're guilty right they haven't gone to trial yet
now in 2012 Todd's stepmother Eugena Willingham and his cousin Patricia Willingham filed a petition with the
Texas Board of Pardons and paroles for a full pardon for Todd they had the full assistance and support of the Innocence
Project but their petition was opposed by Stacy kaikendel who said that she did not feel that Todd deserved a pardon the
Texas Board of Pardons and paroles voted in March of 2014 and they did deny Todd
Willingham a full pardon right because like I said the system never wants to admit that it's wrong
it's just refuses to even even when they were so scared to uh go against the new
evidence that like West Memphis Three it's like well how about we have you admit that you're guilty and then we'll
let you out I mean some of this stuff doesn't make any sense so you're okay you're gonna
take three people that you're claiming killed three eight-year-old boys and then satanic Manner and you're going to
just say say you're guilty and we'll let you go and it's ridiculous and in this case
it's like this you know was this guy a piece of [ __ ] yes he was a piece of [ __ ]
you know and and he deserves to run in Hell anybody that puts their hand on a woman deserves to ride in hell and then
if he was beating her up while she's pregnant he's even worse I mean they cut off these goddamn testicles for all I
give [ __ ] but that doesn't mean that he set this fire it doesn't mean that he's
responsible for their deaths now I would argue that his cowardness is what led to their death it seems to me
that if the police sorry I'm getting off frustrated but it seems to me when the firefighters showed up that they were
able to get into the house and actually get to the girls and it seems to me that
when he was when he was coming to or when he was waking up because he hears his daughter that he would have had the
time to go in there and get his children out and he chose to be selfish because this guy seems to be a selfish selfish
piece of [ __ ] and you could even see one like it's his last words and it's just
all about him you know I I've I'm innocent of this you know why you could have just admitted you know look I'm
innocent of this but yeah I was a coward and I didn't save them and maybe I deserved this it's it's frustrating oh
yeah I I absolutely hate this case 100 it was very interesting to dive into it was very interesting to learn some of
the fire science if you want to call it that arson science and how it's changed throughout the years
the where where you hate this case and why you can't feel good about this case look man I'm not gonna lie to you we
presented a lot of information that says that this guy was in fact innocent after
presenting a lot of information that says this guy is guilty right the thing about it there's still
to this day people that feel one way or the other it's not it's not a uniform united front here that everybody is
walking arm and arm hand in hand and singing the Praises of Todd and saying he was innocent of these three murders I
read one interview where there was a person from the area and the way that this was stated made me
feel that there's probably a lot of other people from that area still to this day but that would feel the same
way this person's statement was I know that he's dead I know that they executed him and I wish that I could dig
him up and we could kill him two more times just so it would be even three murders and three executions yeah so
there are a lot of people that feel very strongly about this one way or another and I'll tell you what after spending
two weeks looking at this case and and just being eyeballs deep in this whole mess
I can see why people feel strongly one way or the other so I'm not even going to bother getting into that portion of
it where I have some some big big issues is from things at the start look let's all pretend that we are united
front and we all 100 believe that Willingham that Todd Willingham was innocent and I don't want a victim blame if that
would be the case but one you know if you give a man enough rope sometimes he hangs himself I think what
happened here is if he was telling the truth and he was innocent one and two he was a coward and
he fled the home what does he do on that first day of questioning he gives a very
long story of the motions and the actions that he did while still inside the home trying to save his children
failing to do so and then ending up on the front lawn and then I think we have a problem where
Not only was the deck stacked against Willingham like we said regarding the trial
in a sense the deck is then stacked against the fire inspectors as well because as
you're going through this and you're looking at everything and I know that the one fire inspector said the fire
talks to you the structure talks to you right and maybe there's a building that can help you if there's fires and
buildings talking to you anyway and I know he's just using those terms but when you're going through this and it is
at that time the fire science to this man's knowledge and to the other fire investigators knowledge is based off of
years of experience past experiences things that they have seen witnessed and worked on in the past so in a sense it
is a gut feeling it's one man or two men's interpretation of what they believe that they're seeing but you go
through in every piece every burn mark every questionable thing is a mystery to you
but what is not a mystery is you have this long statement from a man who says he was inside the home
woke up around the time that the fire seemed to start and he made an attempt to save his
children he he had movements and actions that were an attempt to save his children
ends up on the front lawn a bit of that too man as an investigator is you're taking his statements and
you're looking at the house and you're going what he said doesn't match up with what
we are finding inside this house yeah he must be lying well why would he lie because he set the fire and he killed
his children right so not to victim blame here if in fact Todd Willingham was a victim
but had he just been up front in the beginning and said look I woke up and the place was on fire I don't know what
the hell happened it was you know I got burned a little bit and I ran out front and then I was too chicken [ __ ] to go
back inside right and that that the investigation itself regardless of of fires and buildings talking to this man
might have gone a different way right and also I think he was pretending outside and making a scene
to cover up the fact that he was a coward and then that came off as disingenuous so because it was right
disingenuous the other thing too Captain the that is terrible you know I just referenced how
strongly some people in the area still feel to this day about his guilt and we even have the one juror who says it
wasn't a question about his guilt after I figured out that I don't really think he attempted to save his children
what I'm getting at is I I find I'm with you and and I'm not going to go as far to blame it on the system there were
some areas there were plenty of points you're absolutely right there are plenty of points and and moments in time where
this could have corrected itself or at least put it on freeze mode and re-examine the
whole thing and that didn't happen and that is horrible but when we say that our system is flawed
there's there's everybody knows that there's no one out there that denies that one bit and when this system was
set up and put in place if anybody believed that they were putting in place a Flawless system well that's a [ __ ]
right but what we attempt to do over time and we learn with the experience we try to
mold the system to get better with time and to do what we set it up to do in the
process what what I'm getting at here is I find that the trial itself was not a great
trial but that seems to be for my opinion more on the defense side it looks like the prosecution is putting
forth the case against this man that was presented to him by investigators and the witnesses that this prosecutor
interviewed minus that of Johnny Webb because that's a whole other story we don't know that portion of it 100
percent Johnny Webb can't be believed this prosecutor could be corrupt and there are signs pointing to that but
Johnny not Johnny Webb uh Todd willingham's counsel again I think they did an okay job they didn't do the best job
I think that given what what we have people to this day saying let's dig them up and execute him two more times that
to me is proof that this trial should have been moved change of venue get this thing away this community that immediate
area is too messed up and distraught by the death of three children to probably provide an accurate jury full
and the other thing too it just I mean they didn't call hardly any Witnesses I don't know it's just it's it's an
aggravating case because no matter how you spin it either three kids were murdered or an
innocent man was put to death [Music] everybody thanks for joining us in the garage spending your quality time with
us be kind to everybody we'll see you back here next week until then be good be kind and don't let her
[Music]

Cameron Todd Willingham /// Part 2 /// 353

Part 2 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com J

ust days before Christmas a horrible house fire claimed the lives of three very innocent victims. Later fire inspectors determined that the fire was set. Someone was responsible for the fire and for the murder of three. Join us in the garage as we discuss one of the most controversial cases from Texas. Beer of the Week - Texas Red from Rahr & Sons Brewing Co. Garage Grade - 3 and a half bottle caps out of 5

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Brief Summary

Todd Willingham was executed for a fire that may have been accidental, raising questions about justice and forensic science.

Key points

A Tragic House Fire. Three children die in a house fire just before Christmas, leaving their father to face judgment.
The Defense's Struggles. Todd's attorneys struggle to present a strong defense, lacking expert witnesses.
The Burden of Proof. Todd refuses to testify, raising questions about the defense's strategy.
Trial's Quick Conclusion. The jury deliberates for only 77 minutes before finding Todd guilty.
Elizabeth Gilbert's Investigation. A playwright befriends Todd and investigates his case, believing he was wrongfully convicted.
Todd Willingham's Last Words. Before his execution, Todd Willingham proclaimed his innocence, stating he had been persecuted for 12 years.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

The real fact of the matter is that Willingham was guilty.

Lead defense counsel's statement post-trial

11:27WatchNov 19, 2022

Tension

70/ 100High tension

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