The Missoula Mauler /// Part 1 /// 431 | Forensic Files

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brand [Music] [Music] never [Music] welcome to True Crime garage wherever you are whatever you are doing thank you
for listening I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man that would like to remind us all to beware of
what's in the sewers of dairy M here is the captain yeah warning it's poop it's good to be seen and good to see you
thanks for listening thanks for telling a [Music] friend today we are drinking moncky cold
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garage.com and click on the store Page and that's enough of the business all right everybody gather around grab a
chair grab a beer let's talk some true [Music] crime [Music] the following is taken from a 2006
article from the Independent Record her girl is never far from Sydney Bacon's thoughts the girl lives in a
tupperware box right now the Box is in Hayden Lake Idaho with the University of Montana
student who is studying her but she'll soon be returned to Missoula for what bacon and others hope will be the next
step in figuring out who she is Sydney bacon who has a master's degree in forensic anthropology from the
University of Montana knows the girl better than almost anyone she detailed everything about her for her master's
thesis but someone somewhere knows her better someone knows the name that goes with the bones in the Box it's very
upsetting to me that she is not on a missing person's report somewhere bacon said for now the girl is known by other
names case number 850 9102 Christy Crystal Creek for more than 20 years Christy Crystal Creek was essentially the so
sister of another young woman known only as Debbie Deer Creek Debbie's nude body
was found in the Deer Creek drainage on Christmas Eve 1984 Christy's remains were found by a
bear hunter 9 months later scattered across a hillside in Crystal Creek one drainage over from Deer
Creek Missoula County Sheriff's Captain Greg hints has known Christy Crystal Creek from the start known about the two
bullets in her skull known about the possible connection to a suspect Captain hints is contacted on a
regular basis by people who think christe might be this woman or that but so far he's never made the
match but with the work being done in north Texas he is once again hopeful that Christie's identity might be closer
to Discovery the technology is out there hint said all we have to do now is a little more
work primarily that work consists of sending one of Christy's bones to North Texas then it's a matter of crossing our
fingers there's no getting around it we need some luck hint said the problem of course is that the
north Texas lab May produce a perfectly good DNA sample and have have nothing to
match it to if some law enforcement agency somewhere doesn't have evidence on the
woman or her family A match is unlikely and one of the key methods of identifying remains has already been
tried and failed with Christie she had very Distinctive Dentistry work done bacon said it's
Unique work and extreme work Christy had excellent and extensive dental care until maybe a year before her
death she had fillings in almost every tooth and had two root canals including one in a relatively rare
location and then it all just stopped about a year before she died bacon said someone stopped taking care of her or
she stopped taking care of herself that sort of Dentistry is often enough to identify an unknown body if
someone usually a family member has given the dental records to law enforcement so that they can be entered
into the FBI's computerized National Crime information center but there's never been a
match that suggests that christe might not be listed anywhere as a missing person but it's also at least remotely
possible the dental records weren't available chrisy was petite maybe 5T tall 18 to 21 years old she weighed
maybe 100 lb her remains suggest the possibility of both Caucasian and Asian Heritage and she was most likely
right-handed she smoked and bacon speculates may have used drugs in the last years of her
life I don't think that she was from around here based on the way Missoula reacts to somebody going missing she
said bacon has long felt Christy may be from the East Coast a runaway most most likely but that's just a
hunch I want to help in any way I can I want her to be able to go home to a family bacon
said it's now October of 2020 and Christy Crystal Creeks real identity is still unknown Christy Crystal Creek has been
added to the namus database the FBI's violent criminal apprehension program better known as
vicap at the do Network she is simply known as 3 ufmt unidentified female her remains
were discovered on September 9th 1985 recovered in a wooded area in Missoula County Montana no clothing
jewelry or other personal effects were located the victim's estimated date of death was approximately 1 year
prior dental X-rays and DNA are available for comparison to provide a request additional
information please contact the Missoula County Sheriff's Office at 406 258 3348 or the FBI violent criminal
apprehension program at 800 634 497 Christy Crystal Creek is only one of the victims that we will be discussing
this week this is true crime garage [Music] Montana or Big Sky country as I like to
say is the fourth largest state by area in this greatest of countries the US and
a we've done over 400 episodes and we've only taken this flying garage ship to Montana one time before and that was in
July of this year for our serial Confessor episodes now I have only seen pictures but this looks like an
absolutely stunning place to live I'm talking about Missoula Montana with beautiful landscapes and Earth as far as
the eye can see you got mountains and of course the big big guy well here we are
again but this time we are not in pop Montana like the Confessor shows this time we are in Missoula The Hub of the
five valleys and in relation to popper the other small towns in Montana Missoula is the big city today we have
over 75,000 people living in Missoula our story starts back in the mid 70s and since then the population has more than
doubled so let's go back to 1974 Missoula Montana to a city of about 30,000 people on Thursday April 11th
1974 the pounds family got up and started their day as usual this is a family of five very religious family
living in East Missoula at this time there are only four of the five family members living in the home we have
husband and wife which is Harvey and Donna pounds who have been married for quite a while by this time their son
Kenny was out of the house he is off serving this country in the armed forces their oldest daughter Karen she too is
grown but still living at home and their youngest is Kathy who is only 12 years old Harvey works at a local clothing
store and does quite a bit of work for the church that his family attends Donna works part-time at a
nearby Christian bookstore on this Thursday Harvey and daughter Karen will be going off to work and
Kathy she'll be going off to school Donna she has the day off but on this morning she's going to go off with a
friend and at the pounds home this morning really is nothing but routine everyone left the house
including Donna who again has the day off but she's picked up by a friend Donna would ride along with her friend
who made her Avon deliveries that's how the captain spends a lot of his free time as well Donna's friend returned and
dropped her back off at the pounds home this is sometime after 100 p.m. in the afternoon later that afternoon Kathy the
little girl 12 years old is the first one of the three to return to the home she and a friend from school went to the
pound's house there doing typical after school stuff enjoying some snacks watching a little
television a little less than 2 hours later the father husband Harvey returns home from his day job when he arrived he
briefly spoke with Kathy and her friend and he inquired about the whereabouts of
his wife Harvey went upstairs to look for her there he found several cut lengths of rope this is very unusual in
itself but even more so because one the family did not have any rope anywhere inside the home and two the different
locations of these pieces of rope there were pieces tied to the bed post in one of the bedrooms a cut piece of rope
dangling from the door knob in the bathroom and some rope tied to the hoses attached to the family's washing
machine but despite these strange discoveries his wife was nowhere to be found Harvey decided to check the
basement and then there at the bottom of the stairs lying face down but up against the wall was the lifeless body
of his wife Harvey knew she was dead and was the victim of an attack that took place inside his home yeah and of course
he's going to tell his children to get out of the house and they probably went to a neighbor's house but you definitely
want to protect them from seeing their mother like that yeah he's going to call the police and call for help the police
arrive on the scene and we can go through some of the evidence here Cappy the police arrived on the scene this
what they're looking for is how this whole thing went down of course and along with the Rope evidence they're
able to determine the following fairly quickly that the killing took place sometime between 1 p.m. when Donna's
friend dropped her off at the house and what they're a little murky on is did this murder occur before Kathy and her
friend arrived at the house which seems the most likely or when Harvey arrived home or did it occur shortly after he
arrived home they're a little suspicious of course well it seems like the perpetrator would had to spend a lot of
time in the house so possibly they would have left DNA or fingerprints so there's
no sign of a Breakin there was little sign of of any actual struggle as well this is concerning for police the cause
of death is 522 caliber bullets fired into the back of Donna's head there was evidence at the scene that suggests that
the killer as you said spent a considerable amount of time in the home this could be a couple of hours we talk
about the cut lengths of rope that are found in several different locations of the home right now two very important
key elements to this murder the weapon was found at the scene now this is not terribly uncommon but more
times than not when a gun is used in the commission of a homicide it is removed from the scene the killer takes it with
them and disposes of the gun elsewhere or keeps it sometimes for the purpose of committing future crimes yeah why do you
think that is well in this case the 22 caliber death instrument was not only left at the scene but but was found
pinned between the legs of the victim and even more Curious the gun belonged to Harvey pounds the husband okay so the
perpetrator comes in brings his own rope probably brings his own knife does brings other things but uses the
homeowner's gun correct that's the way that it looks that's the way that it sounds with their discussion going on
with Harvey at the time now mind you Harvey's being pretty forthcoming that's my gun number one but he's the only one
that can tell you if that rope came from the house or not and he's saying that we
didn't have any rope in the house that is not our rope now I read somewhere that this stuff was the hold back
information meaning that how many times she was shot and where they found the gun and who the gun
actually belonged to right I read several places that said that that is the the hold back
information now I'm not calling [ __ ] on that but if that was the hold back information they managed to hold it back
all of two days because all three of those items were in the newspaper two days after the murder right a couple of
items that were in fact held back was that Donna's clothing was found in the upstairs master bedroom also found
upstairs were some bullets this means that shots were fired in the upstairs of the house not just the downstairs in the
basement where we have our victim shot five times right but do we know if she was sexually assaulted it's believed
that she was but was that when she was alive or is that postmortem there is every indication
that the sexual assault took place upstairs in the bedroom where we found the Rope okay and they held that back at
the time for two days well they they held that back for quite some time actually along with the the stuff that I
just went through but the idea that this initial stuff was going to be held back
seems like a big deal I think the problem is because the murder weapon belong to Harvey pounds it's tough to
hold that back right because now you have a concern that he might be your suspect right and if you're walking into
this case as an investigator you're going okay who's the most likely suspect bing bing bing bing the husband all bing
bing bing bing bing it's his gun and then you start wondering did they get into an argument and then did he stage
this whole scene to make it look like something it wasn't mhm yeah yeah immediately Harvey was a suspect this of
course makes a lot of sense he's the husband you know we've all seen the shirts that say the husband did it mhm
truecrime garage.com the don't we don't have those anymore the murder weapon belonged to him as we said
and he found the body right now everyone knows that the husband or the spouse is
not only often an early suspect but if you watch three episodes of Dateline on two of them the spouse turns out to be
the murderer right then compound this with it is his gun and he found the victim it's also not terribly uncommon
for the person who quote found the victim to actually be the one who committed the murder right and of course
you have to factor in that there is no sign of forced entry so either Mrs pounds let the killer into the home or
the killer somehow had access to the home I just want to stop on that for a second cuz right now you say the
population is 75,000 today yes right so back then 30,000 and right so not a lot of people
I guarant to you A lot of people were not locking every door but there are a couple problems with the theory that
Harvey killed his wife first the police had two other leads on the case that needed to be investigated next Mrs
pounds was alive and well when Harvey Karen and Kathy left for the day she's alive and well when her friend drops her
off at 1 p.m. Kathy and her friend did not see nor encounter anyone else inside the
home until her father returned over an hour after the two kids arrived so if we are to believe our Witnesses Kathy and
her friend then Mrs Donna pounds was dead before Harvey even returned from work now going against Harvey is someone
in the neighborhood who says that they think that they saw Harvey's vehicle at the pound's house at some point during
the day but couldn't be sure all right look I'm all for see something say something but you're running a risk here
of of locking this man up for the rest of his life by going ah I think I saw him his vehicle at their house sometime
during the work day well we have five shots so do we have anybody that's a ear witness no we have no ear Witnesses in
the case and that's what's weird because we know that the five shots that that killed this poor woman woman took place
in the basement of the home okay so that's somewhat you can explain that way maybe that muffles the sound a little
bit but there's evidence that shots were fired at in the upstairs of the home as
well okay but again maybe maybe everybody's just gone maybe everybody else is just at work or at school during
the time that this murder took place the problem with the idea of this neighbor saying I might have seen Harvey's
vehicle at the pound's house during the daytime we have several people who say and confirm that Harvey was at work that
day for the entirety of the work day right so this I might have seen his vehicle doesn't seem like such a such a
it's definitely not a concrete thing but it doesn't even seem like a a good possibility at this point okay so what
are the other two leads in this case MH the first comes from the statement of a another potential witness this is a
neighbor that said that sometime during the day they saw a young man in the pound's backyard he described the young
man as someone who lived down the street you know it looks like this kid that lives down the street a white guy young
maybe roughly 20 years of age so police went to where it was thought that this young man lived and they spoke with a
guy named Wayne Nance M he's 18 at the time Wayne fit the description and not only did he live in the neighborhood and
he's lived there for several years he lives there with his father and brother um they got a fairly big family I
believe mother father and four kids including Wayne he was friends with the pound's
son Kenny remember Kenny is off at the Army at this time right so he knows the pound's family not just by living in the
neighborhood he was good friends with this kid at one point in their lives Wayne had been inside the pound's home
on several occasions police questioned the young man who said he had been home for the entirety of the day nursing a
cold he says I've mostly been sleeping and watching TV so he doesn't really have much of an alibi he's supposed to
be in school that day right police strongly question Wayne's lack of a real Alibi and they decided to keep him on
their very short list of suspects but other than that they did not have much to go on Plus
they had that other lead yeah this kid is skiing School drinking back the old robotussin jerking off to the prices
right this other lead they found is quite suspicious a young man 19 years of age his name Clyde Wickstrom was found
on Interstate 90 about 12 miles outside of town when he's found he's dying from a self-inflicted gun shot to the Head
oh Clyde was rushed to the hospital where he soon died police wanded and publicly they wondered and said this to
the papers could it be that Clyde was the young man spotted in the backyard of the pound's home now did did he have a
gun on him at the time yes he did okay so that to me kind of pushes him away because why would he use why would he
use the homeowner's gun when he had a gun with him that's a good question you know they they asked the papers they
were asking and wondering did he attack and kill Mrs pounds and then due to the guilt or fear of getting caught or both
that he decideed to take his own life that's the thing though the percentage of these killers that are actually
guilty or feel anything is pretty small it it can be I mean everybody has a different reaction to to their
actions and maybe the person look I don't want to go down that road because it's a long one and it's going to lead
us nowhere because as you pointed out Clyde decided to take his own life he used his own gun why would he choose to
use the pounds 22 found inside the home and if Clyde knew the gun used in the murder could not be tied to him well
then you start to wonder what's my chances of getting caught right but so if we have these two leads it's pretty
simple Wayne has been in their house so if his fingerprints are in the house it's kind of hard to say when they got
there this guy Clyde he has no connection to the family so if his fingerprints are anywhere in the house
then he's guilty yeah the theory quickly unraveled in just a little over 24 hours
after the murder of Mrs Donna pounds the Missoula County Sheriff's Office announced that any possible connection
between the murder of Mrs pounds mother of three and the death of 19-year-old Clyde Wickstrom had been ruled
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changer all right we're back cheers mates he's back I'm back he's back tall cans in the air everybody robas in the
air within days the sheriff's department announced another possibility that there
could be a connection between Mrs pound's murder and the slaying of a Billings Montana couple that was
murdered in their home a little more than 6 months before Mrs pounds was murdered law enforcement from both
cities announced that they would be working together to see if there was in fact the connection between what the
sheriff was calling two bizarre sets of crimes right but this makes the whole Community go on high alert yeah yeah and
we should point out that the cities although in the same state you know Montana is a big state and the two
cities of Missoula and Billings are about a 5H hour drive from one another so in the same state but not really
close at all okay so let's go through the double slangs in Billings Montana this is a young married couple and this
is Mr and Mrs Clifford and Linda burnhard they were found dead inside their home by Linda's mother she was
unable to reach her daughter and son-in-law by phone for a couple of days and decided to go to the home to
investigate and found both of them dead in an obvious double homicide the couple
were both 24 years of age and had been married for 4 years and they recently moved into this home I think it might
might even have been a new build Clifford was an Army Sergeant and Linda worked at the grocery store Clifford was
found lying face down in a pool of blood Linda was found in a bedroom sexually assaulted and
strangled there was no sign of forced entry into the home there was evidence that both victims at one time during the
attack were tied at the wrist and ankles but detectives did not locate the bindings at the scene so meaning the
killer took them with him also taken from the scene were several of Linda's personal items this included a suitcase
and some of her clothing but there were some even more bizarre things about this
crime scene one it appeared that the couple was getting ready to sit down for their evening dinner when something
terrible happened meaning they were attacked just before supper time dinner was prepared and set out on the counter
as if it was about to be served even more strange the table was set but not for two people the table was set for
three people it was looking like the bernhard's dinner guest either never arrived or killed them both he didn't
like what they're serving right another odd behavior of the killer would you like tuna salad he turned the heat way
down in the home and opened up several of the windows in the couple of days that it
took for the bodies to be found the low temperature was 6° during those days now if any connection was made
between these two horrific crimes at that time it's really unknown and probably not likely but it was never
really mentioned again they said two agents are going to work together on this and then it kind of disappears from
the news did do we have any um tampering with the thermostat at the pounds home right no
we did not so of course this is something we have seen in many other cases where law enforcement will say
they are looking for a connection either between two somewhat similar crimes or maybe a location you know we've we've
covered cases where they start talking about pig farms Church gun stores State Park uh even stating that they are
looking for a connection to a known offender someone recently picked up for something completely else but after a
couple of days it just Fades from the news they don't ever really announce oh we were looking at this guy and we
didn't find anything it just kind of goes away and we don't hear much about it again what we do hear about in the
Donna pounds case is a surgical glove the sheriff Department of course canvased the area immediately going door
Todo asking questions that's how they got the lead on the Wayne Nance the witness who said they saw a young man in
the pound's backyard and that was what led them to question him as said Nance was a senior
in high school and some of the officers thought this type of horrible heinous act could not have been perpetrated by
some kid from the local high school this Surgical glove however was quite important and of course they
thought so and it was not ever holdback information the the authorities found the glove just outside of the pound's
neighborhood it was a single latex or what some would call a rubber surgical glove it looked like someone had just
tossed It On The Ground isn't it amazing how many cases are similar like when you
think of the actions that probably took place in the pound's home the instruments that were brought the
way she was found the way that she was bound that really reminds me a lot of like BTK mhm but then you have this
glove that's found out in the yard remind reminds me a lot of the Tera grinstead case well you see what type of
people litter what type of losers who litter if you litter you're obvious a psychopath that's today's lesson kids
yeah so this glove is important because they believe there was blood on it so they sent it to the FBI crime labs for
analysis thought to be the best at the time they are hoping for two results one the very unlikely chance
that the glove contained both the Killer's blood and the victims or fingerprints from the person who took
the glove off at this time of course Captain they would just be simply looking for blood type that could
directly connect the killer to the victim or at the very least match the victim's blood so they know that the
glove was used in the commission of the crime right but of course the test would
take time and regardless of what the results came back with law enforcement wanted to find the match to this glove
right another single glove in someone's possession or even a box of gloves that match this glove so the Sheriff's Office
asked everyone in the area for their help they were very public about this surgical glove finding they want to know
has anyone seen gloves like this in someone's possession or do they know anyone that uses these types of gloves
more importantly If people could go outside and check their yards to see if the second glove was discarded elsewhere
or maybe even the gloves were tossed together and a dog or something made off with one of them we've covered true
crime stories where dogs show up running back to their owners with bones or body
parts right so the the moving of a glove does not seem strange at all now like with most towns Captain there are going
to be some local rumors and some of them make their way to the police or even the
newspapers and some of them don't and just like this case the rumors from the 70s and 80s when there is an unsolved M
when there is an unsolved murder are always very interesting we are coming up on Halloween the old trick-or treat time
and we've covered plenty of cases where they cancel Beggar's Night because of local rumors because of an unsolved
murder and local rumors right so what were some of the local rumors here in Missoula at the time
I I'm going to warn you I'm not going to go through all of them because there were quite a bit there was a a bunch of
stuff swirling around and we would later learn that the majority of them don't carry much weight they're just not true
but the more interesting ones that swirled around was the idea of a cult or witchcraft being involved in the Donna
pounds Murder One rumor tied directly to the murder of Donna is that an individual
involved in the occult or Satanist was the killer the rumor was that either a note or a letter of some type was found
near the Donna pounds crime scene that described the quote ritual that was that this individual needed to kill three
people to give themselves to Satan all right the need to kill three people first according to this rumor they
needed to kill or sacrifice a virgin then kill or sacrifice someone who is a faithful Christian and then the third
murder would be that of a betrayer if this is true then Donna pounds the wife of Harvey who spends
most of his time working for the church right she must be the faithful Christian
follower okay so that means that someone the Virgin has already been murdered and
then Donna pounds was killed and someone else a third victim still needs to to die or this occultist or Satanist uh for
them to achieve their goal so who was the Virgin well sadly there was a local case to connect that theory to and that
was the very sad case that started just two months earlier with the Abduction of
a little girl on Tuesday February 5th 197 74 a youngster described as precocious and friendly this is little
5-year-old sioban mcginness she vanished around 700 p.m. on that night in early February she was
last seen by her neighborhood friend at approximately 700 p.m. Siobhan was at her friend's house the friend lives in
the same neighborhood around 6:30 p.m. Siobhan's mother Bonnie called the friend's house spoke with Siobhan tells
her she needs to come home soon the two little girls walked from the friend's house and headed in the direction of
Siobhan's home right when the two reached about the halfway mark this is right near Wittier school three blocks
from Siobhan's home the two-p parted ways what kind of school is it elementary middle school high school I
have no idea uh it the papers just said Wittier School again this is only about three
blocks from Siobhan's home the two-part ways her friend turned around and is going ah head back to her house and
Siobhan presumably continued on her way however she never made it to her home yeah Siobhan's mother reported her
missing at 8:45 p.m. now the search intensified after a report of an attempted assault on
another 5-year-old in the neighborhood ear earlier that day according to police reports a man with curly red hair talked
this other girl into a Shack or a shed on the north side of Missoula and tried to molest her the girl according to the
papers escaped unharmed the February 7th newspaper featured a sketch of the man sought in
the molestation attempt police did say that there was no official link between the two cribes do we know if it's a
older man or a younger man judging by the sketch it appears to be a younger man right another lead was a report that
came in from another local school this is from the Paxton school officials that said A man was seen near their school
asking children to get into his car so that he could take pictures of them yeah that's that's an innocent hobby isn't it
yeah the description of this man did not match that of the description of the man
saw in the molestation what's wrong with people you know what I mean what's wrong
with people well and then you got to go a step further and you go okay what is scarier here do we have one guy going
around to multiple schools looking for a potential victim or do we have three individuals who are all deviates into
different weird stuff right unfortunately Captain Siobhan's body was found in a cul by a county road
worker at the Tura I believe it's pronounced Tura T R A exit from Interstate 90 she was found at approximately 3:45
p.m. on Thursday February 7th the body was reported to be bloodied and there was a blood trail found
beneath a new layer of snow so it's early February it's cold out it's Montana which gets even colder than here
they were experiencing snowfall within several you know a period of several days uhhuh and however this Blood got
there it had it got there and it was on top of some snow but then there was an additional layer of snow that had fallen
on top of this Blood Trail there's some weird things going on here though Captain there were no human
footprints found in the area but there were several dog prints found in the area and mind you they find this trail
of blood that leads down from the road out to this Culvert where she is eventually discovered underneath that
layer of the new layer of snow right but the dog didn't transfer her out there well you just you just totally poked
holes in my my theory I was going to say I've not found anything to confirm my suspicions but I think it's possible she
was dumped right at the side of the road and then dragged the dogs drag the body
to where she was eventually found okay look is it possible but wouldn't we have some drag marks on the body drag marks
uh in the area we could we could it's I just find it weird that we find dog tracks but no human
prints well it but also that might give you a clue of when the body was left because if the if it was dry or cold we
wouldn't have any Footprints of a human she was found Frozen and fully clothed now Witnesses
reported seeing two distinct vehicles in the area of the dump site maybe even roughly the time that it's believed that
she could have been dumped one of the reports states that the police were looking for a 1959 or
196 Ford Fair Lane with Montana license plates the other and this seems to be more they were more
focused on this other vehicle and you'll see why here in just a second a heavy focus on this vehicle
this was either a 1958 to 1960 so 1958 59 or 1960 green Cadillac with New York plates now that's very interesting
because this car sounds even more distinctive than the other and plus we have the out ofate plates right so it
might have been noticed by other people in the area at the time or even the town
over well not a close neighboring state right and yeah because you have New York
and then you have Parts Unknown and then Montana right but if part unknown is huge right if you're in Ohio and there's
Ohio and you see like a Indiana license plate not that big of a deal or if you see Kentucky or if you can see see
Michigan it's not that big of a deal but you see a New York license plate you go
oh that it it always sticks out a little bit more look there Captain I see you see that there's a New York City
Plate all right so this is interesting though too because along with this description of the car we get a
description of the driver of this car he looks like a guy from New York City that's right the descri the driver is
described as a middleaged white man weing wearing dark clothing and a baseball cap the left rear fender skirt
on the vehicle was missing so even more descriptiveness if that's a word right later on the autopsy
revealed that the little girl died from multiple stab wounds and she had been sexually assaulted now regardless
whether or not the two unsolved murders were connected and I know we've covered several murders by this point but I'm
talking about Donna pounds and Siobhan mcginness the little girl well the reason why I wouldn't discount
it is the idea that I think in the pounds case it almost seems like the perpetrator had this
idea or had this um plan and then it got switched around once he found the gun of the
homeowner mhm meaning like so just because they were just because the murders happened by two different uh
inflictions or injuries I I wouldn't separate the two necessarily correct maybe he showed up with the knife that
he used on Siobhan mcginness and decided that's not finds a gun or threatens the
homeowner uh you got any weapons and she she reveals where the the weapon may be
mhm and then decides to use oh I'll use the gun because there's no connection to
me right and I'll just leave it here because if I don't take it with me again no connection to me yeah but i' also
think on some level it just be easier like that you have to have some kind of more of a raw emotion more possibly a
hatred for the individual like they said when there's a stabbing victim it's normally a crime of
passion well maybe these are just sexually motivated crimes then you have to murder the person to cover it up but
the murder is just to cover it up mhm it's not part of the sexual fantasy right and there in lies some more
difficulty to me when I when I look at both of these crimes where you go okay well why is murder necessary to cover up
these crimes that usually points to the victim could identify the perpetrator not just in description but maybe even
knows them by name right and a little girl her circle is much smaller socially than than an adult than a woman who's in
her late 30s early 40s but generally an adult will have a much larger Social Circle than a four five or six year-old
child right but what I'm saying is that I think this perpetrator is I I think this
murderer knows his victims without the victims knowing him him as well as he knows them regardless whether or not the
two unsolved murders were actually connected they were now Linked In the minds of the public and this will be for
a couple of reasons one the satanic Panic letter rumor that was going around got to kill a virgin got to kill a
follower got to kill a betrayer that means that this person has achieved steps one and two and now is looking for
their third victim the second reason the murder rate is very very low in this area of the country Montana has a very
low murder rate especially at this time at the mid 70s they would usually have one or two murders a year sometimes none
but when they had murders they were solved they were solved easily it all too often was The Usual Suspects the
husband or the boyfriend did it or or someone the victim had been feuding with committed the
homicide so these are linked in the minds of the public simply because they don't get that many murders and both of
these ones are sitting there unsolved at the time two murders with extreme differences in victimology in my opinion
but still must be connected because they occurred within two months and a few days of each other and they are both
unsolved back to the Donna pounds case we still have some suspects and there was rumor surrounding our victim's
husband Harvey pounds local rumor was that he was having an affair leading up to the murder of his wife detectives
investigated this angle quite thoroughly as the local rumored was detailed enough
that it often named the woman that Harvey was thought to be having this affair with police spoke to this woman
on several veral occasions and after investigating they were having a hard time believing that the affair rumor was
even true but one thing they didn't like was Harvey Harvey was not only fully cooperating with the investigation this
is one of those weird stories Captain where we hear all the time oh this guy quit talking to police the boyfriend or
the husband was not cooperating right with police this is one of those weird times where they go he's fully
cooperating and we don't feel good about it they say that he was a little too Cooperative he was constantly out in his
yard and walking the neighborhood looking for Clues and then calling the sheriff's department reporting every
irrelevant small find that he came across they thought it was like he was trying to steer the
investigation yeah like he he's bringing up something he found found a block over
I found this rock on the side of the road and they're going oh you're just you're just throwing us off the scent
right that's what their thoughts are can you imagine this guy let's say he's innocent right let's say he's the victim
here his wife has just been killed and he's been told by police oh we're investigating this lead that somebody
was seing in your backyard right we're investigating this lead so much so to the point where we're begging the public
for their help that we found the surgical glove could you all go out in your yards and look for the second one
on mhm it seems to me like he's kind of doing what the police are asking the public to do he's out walking the
neighborhood in his yard looking for that other surgical glove or looking for right they're like go out and look for
this stuff and he's looking for it and they're like man right but Mr Harvey pounds don't you dare go out and look
for this stuff you seem a little suspicious when you do it they thought that it was like he was trying to steer
the investigation maybe he's trying to direct the narrative of the evidence we don't know the tied to the evidence we
don't know the demeanor of this individual either cuz like you know going back to the original when the
investigators show up and you have to talk to the husband that knowing what we know knowing that the percentage is is
most likely that the spouse is involved in the murder of another spouse so when you show up you don't want to just uh
assume that you don't want to say that they're guilty before you have any proof of that but you're going
to be looking at them with suspicious eyes anyways well and that was the issue within the sheriff's department itself
you kind of had a split down the middle of opinions with the officers and the investigators you had half the room that
seemed to know Harvey pounds pretty well and they understood how religious this man was and they're going he could have
never have killed his wife because that's not in his nature that's not who Harvey is he's not a violent individual
he's very involved in his church and then you have the other half of the room going maybe these rumors are true and he
certainly looks like a good suspect he's the husband his gun was used to kill this woman so you really had a split
downthe middle within the sheriff's department these people arguing these officers arguing amongst each other as
to what the direction of the investigation should be right one thing that Harvey reported that the sheriff's
department did not like at all was a bullet that he found inside his home he said that he found a bullet lodged
inside of a book that was in one of the rooms on a bookshelf in the upstairs the problem that the sheriff's
department had with this bullet that Harvey pounds found was they couldn't believe that they didn't find it right
this could have simply have been one of the shots that was fired upstairs and they didn't find this bullet for
whatever reason now the way that this was found the way that I understand it to be anyway Captain was that the book
was positioned as such on the shelf that the not the uh binding or whatever you the spine wasn't out it was the pages
the pages side was out so when this bullet was fired from wherever in the room it got lodged in some of the pages
of the book right but there was another rumor that was going around at the time and this had nothing to do with Harvey
pounds and this was something that started off sounding like a rumor but could actually be really true the rumor
was that this odd kid in school his name Wayne Nance he's the same one that's already been questioned by police the
kid that skipped school because he wasn't feeling feeling well on the same day that Donna pounds was murdered right
the rumor going around school was that Nance had told a few other students that he was going to kill someone before he
turned 19 years of age see again again they're all connected they're all little pieces of of the same
puzzle this reminds me of Damian Eckles right right when reviewing this case that's one thing that kept popping up
and you already mentioned BT and you'll see some some things that will remind you of the Golden State
killer as well this is really a very fascinating case and these rumors that are going around at the school Nance
says to a couple people hey I'm going to kill somebody before I turn 19 he's 18 at this time he's running out of time if
that's what he's really going to do I mean thinking back on high school and middle school I don't remember ever
hearing somebody say anything like that I thought was like insane like this right right violently
insane like I mean I heard kids say a lot of dumb stuff yeah I heard a lot of dumb [ __ ] but I told people I was going
to be Batman when I grew up still working on that all I turned in my job application the other day compl failure
yeah Gotham City mayor denied my application I'm Batman if you get a call by the way I used I Ed you as a
reference uh if you you need answer the phone vanderlay Industries for the next few
days so this kid here's what's weird about this though Captain the principal catches wind of this and it's not
because he's you know out in the halls and hears these kids speaking the kids that that Nance
supposedly told this to they weren't going around school and blabbing this to everybody no because once Donna pounds
is found murdered in the neighborhood where Nance lives these kids aren't blabbing about it
because they're afraid all of a sudden they're afraid and they've already heard the rumor of the occult
letter or satanic note that was supposedly found in the area of the crime scene you mean they're just afraid
in general not afraid of Wayne no I think it's twofold I think they're afraid in general because they is a
killer out there but they're they're extra afraid because they think they know the killer they think it
one of the kids that was in very good upstanding with the school with the teachers and the principal his name was
Bill and he knew Nance fairly well I wouldn't call them friends but he goes to the principal and he says look this
is what Wayne Nance was telling people before Donna pounds was killed that he was going to kill someone before he
turned 19 Wayne is weird we just all thought it was Wayne being Wayne now Donna pounds is dead and in a
roundabout way Bill tells the principal I believe Wayne was trying to tell me that he killed Donna pounds how this
comes about is Bill says that one day he's hanging out with Wayne at school again I they're not they don't seem to
be friends they just know each other from school right they might have to sit beside each other in class and Wayne
said something to Bill like it has been done or it is done and mind you bill has
this Donna pound's murder on his mind so he thinks that that's what Wayne is referencing and Wayne tells him no I'm
he's talking about something else right bill doesn't believe him bill is afraid enough that he goes to the principal to
tell him this begging that the principal does not you know don't tell anybody other than the police the principal's in
the this weird spot because he's going all right you know kids will be kids he's he's probably got several years
under his belt he knows how kids behave how teenagers behave and he's going is this something that I go to the police
with or is this just something weird that this kid is telling me again you go to the police and let them decide our
victim is in her early 40s the person that is rumored to be a suspect is Wayne Nance who's a senior in high school
the principal does mention this to the the sheriff he calls the head honcho at the sheriff's department discusses what
is going on there now the principal is unaware at this time that the sheriff's department actually spoke to Wayne Nance
early in their investigation now what you have remember we have the split room at the sheriff's
department where half of them believe that Harvey pounds killed his wife and the other half didn't well now the half
that did not believe that Harvey pounds killed his wife they think Wayne Nance killed Donna pounds what you have here
is you have arguments going on within the department of people saying get me a search warrant let me put the pressure
on Harvey pounds and I'll get a confession or I'll get the evidence you need to convict Harvey pounds you have
the other half of the room saying we need to look into this Wayne Nance kid this could be some serious stuff here
what they do is they bring both of them in for a polygraph test Wayne Nance passes the polygraph with flying
colors according to his answers he had nothing to do nor knows nothing about the murder of Donna
pounds the results of Harvey pounds' test are [Music] inconclusive want to thank everybody for joining us
here in the garage a lot of people have been talking about the Netflix documentary American murder about Chris
Watts we covered that case it's titled Christopher Watts episode 269 and 270 and you can find those episodes for free
just download the Stitcher app and also check out our bonus show called off the Record join us back here in the garage
tomorrow until then be good be kind and don't [Music] litter canva presents True Crime of design in
the office Maya spots something unusual in the presentation what's this it was an offbrand font her coworker explains I
added the font I thought it was fun it was not Maya solved it with canva open up canva one click and the font is on
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brand

The Missoula Mauler /// Part 1 /// 431

Part 1 of 2

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Two murders take place in Missoula Montana in early 1974. Both cases are mysterious and the public starts to wonder are these murders connected? In the mid-80’s a married Missoula couple is murdered inside their home. The killer attempted to burn the house down with the victim’s children still inside. Why is this killer terrorizing the people of Missoula Montana and will he ever be caught?

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the unsolved murder of Donna Pounds and suspects including her husband and a local teenager.

Key points

The Mystery of Christy Crystal Creek. For over 20 years, Christy Crystal Creek's identity remains unknown despite extensive investigation.
A Shocking Discovery. Harvey Pounds finds his wife's lifeless body in their home, leading to a tense investigation.
Clyde Wickstrom's Suspicious Death. Clyde Wickstrom, found dying from a self-inflicted gunshot, raises questions about his connection to the murder.
The Bizarre Double Homicide. The murder of a young couple, Clifford and Linda Bernhard, reveals chilling details and odd circumstances.
Rumors of Occult Involvement. Local rumors suggest a cult or witchcraft may be linked to Donna Pound's murder.
The Connection Between Murders. Exploring the potential link between two unsolved murders and the public's perception.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to be seen and good to see you.

Host greeting listeners

2:00WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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