The Missoula Mauler /// Part 1 /// 431 | Forensic Files

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thank you for listening. I'm your host Nick
and with me as always is a man that would like to remind us all to beware of what's in the sewers of Derry, Maine.
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click on the store page. And that's enough the business. All right, everybody gather around, grab
a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. The following is taken from a 2006
article from the Independent Record. Her girl is never far from Sydney Bacon's thoughts.
The girl lives in a Tupperware box. Right now, the box is in Hayden Lake, Idaho with a University of Montana student who
is studying her. But she'll soon be returned to Missoula for what Bacon and others hope will be
the next step in figuring out who she is. Sydney Bacon who has a master's degree in forensic
anthropology from the University of Montana knows the girl better than almost anyone.
She detailed everything about her for her master's thesis. But someone, somewhere
knows her better. Someone knows the name that goes with the bones in the box. "It's very upsetting to me that she is
not on a missing person's report somewhere." Bacon said. For now, the girl's known by other names.
Case number 850, 9102, Christy Crystal Creek. For more than 20 years, Christy Crystal Creek
was essentially the soul sister of another young woman known only as Debbie Deer Creek.
Debbie's nude body was found in the Deer Creek drainage on Christmas Eve 1984. Christy's remains were found by a bear
hunter 9 months later scattered across a hillside in Crystal Creek, one drainage over from Deer Creek.
Missoula County Sheriff's Captain Greg Hintz has known Christy Crystal Creek from the
start. Known about the two bullets in her skull. Known about the possible connection to a
suspect. Captain Hintz is contacted on a regular basis by people who think Christy might be
this woman or that. But so far, he's never made the match. But with the work being done in North
Texas, he is once again hopeful that Christy's identity might be closer to discovery.
"The technology is out there." Hintz said. "All we have to do now is a little more
work." Primarily, that work consists of sending one of Christy's bones to North Texas.
Then, it's a matter of crossing our fingers. "There's no getting around it. We need
some luck." Hint said. The problem, of course, is that the North Texas lab may produce
a perfectly good DNA sample and have nothing to match it to. "If some law enforcement agency
somewhere doesn't have evidence on the woman or her family, a match is unlikely."
And one of the key methods of identifying remains has already been tried and failed with Christy.
"She had very distinctive dentistry work done." Bacon said. "It's unique work and extreme work."
"Christy had excellent and extensive dental care until maybe a year before her death.
She had fillings in almost every tooth and had two root canals, including one in a relatively rare location.
And then it all just stopped about a year before she died, Bacon said. Someone stopped taking care of her or
she stopped taking care of herself. That sort of dentistry is often enough to identify an unknown body if someone,
usually a family member, has given the dental records to law enforcement so that they can be entered into the FBI's
computerized National Crime Information Center. But there's never been a match. That suggests that Christy might not be
listed anywhere as a missing person. But it's also at least remotely possible the dental records weren't available.
Christy was petite, maybe 5-ft tall, 18 to 21 years old. She weighed maybe 100 lb.
Her remains suggest the possibility of both Caucasian and Asian heritage. And she was most likely right-handed.
She smoked and Bacon speculates may have used drugs in the last years of her life.
I don't think that she was from around here based on the way Missoula reacts to somebody going missing, she said.
Bacon has long felt Christy may be from the East Coast, a runaway most likely, but that's just a hunch.
I want to help in any way I can. I want her to be able to go home to a family, Bacon said.
It's now October of 2020 and Christy Crystal Creek's real identity is still unknown.
Christy Crystal Creek has been added to the NamUs database, the FBI's Violent Criminal Apprehension Program
better known as ViCAP. At The Doe Network she is simply known as 3UFMT unidentified female.
Her remains were discovered on September 9th, 1985 recovered in a wooded area of Missoula
County, Montana. No clothing, jewelry, or other personal effects were located. The victim's estimated date of death was
approximately 1 year prior. Dental x-rays and DNA are available for comparison. To provide or request additional
information please contact the Missoula County Sheriff's Office at 406-258- 3348
or the FBI Violent Criminal Apprehension Program at 800-634-4097. Christy Crystal Creek is only one of the
victims that we will be discussing this week. This is True Crime Garage. Montana or Big Sky Country, as I like to
say, is the fourth largest state by area in this greatest of countries, the USA.
We've done over 400 episodes and we've only taken this Flying Garage ship to Montana one time before, and that was in
July of this year for our Serial Confessor episodes. Now, I have only seen pictures, but this
looks like an absolutely stunning place to live. I'm talking about Missoula, Montana.
With beautiful landscapes and earth as far as the eye can see, you got mountains and of course, the big big
sky. Well, here we are again, but this time we are not in Poplar, Montana like the
Confessor shows. This time we are in Missoula, the hub of the five valleys. And in relation to Poplar, the other
small towns in Montana, Missoula is the big city. Today, we have over 75,000 people living in Missoula. Our story
starts back in the mid-70s, and since then the population has more than doubled. So, let's go back to 1974,
Missoula, Montana to a city of about 30,000 people. On Thursday, April 11th, 1974,
the Pounds family got up and started their day as usual. This is a family of five, a very religious family, living in
East Missoula. At this time, there were only four of the five family members living in the home.
We have husband and wife, which is Harvey and Donna Pounds, who have been married for quite a while by this time.
Their son Kenny was out of the house. He is off serving this country in the armed
forces. Their oldest daughter Karen, she too is grown, but still living at home. And
their youngest is Kathy, who is only 12 years old. Harvey works at a local clothing store and does quite a bit of
work for the church that his family attends. Donna works part-time at a nearby Christian bookstore.
On this Thursday, Harvey and daughter Karen will be going off to work. And Kathy, she'll be going off to school.
Donna, she has the day off. But on this morning, she's going to go off with a friend. And at the Pounds
home, this morning really is nothing but routine. Everyone left the house, including
Donna, who again has the day off, but she's picked up by a friend. Donna would ride along with her friend who made her
Avon deliveries. That's how the captain spends a lot of his free time as well. Donna's friend returned and dropped her
back off at the Pounds home. This is sometime after 1:00 p.m. in the afternoon. Later that afternoon, Kathy, the little
girl, 12 years old, is the first one of the three to return to the home. She and a friend from school went to the
Pounds house. They're doing typical after-school stuff, enjoying some snacks, watching a little
television. A little less than 2 hours later, the father, husband, Harvey returns home
from his day job. When he arrived, he briefly spoke with Kathy and her friend, and he inquired about
the whereabouts of his wife. Harvey went upstairs to look for her. There he found several cut lengths of
rope. This is very unusual in itself, but even more so because one, the family did not
have any rope anywhere inside the home, and two, the different locations of these pieces of rope. There were pieces
tied to the bedpost in one of the bedrooms. A cut piece of rope dangling from the
doorknob in the bathroom, and some rope tied to the hoses attached to the family's washing machine.
But despite these strange discoveries, his wife was nowhere to be found. Harvey decided to check the basement.
And there, at the bottom of the stairs, lying face down, but up against the wall, was the lifeless body of his wife.
Harvey knew she was dead and was the victim of an attack that took place inside his home. Yeah, and of course
he's going to tell his children to get out of the house, and they probably went to neighbor's house.
But you definitely want to protect them from seeing their mother like that. Yeah, he's going
to call the police and call for help. The police arrive on the scene, and we can go through some of the
evidence here, Cappy. The police arrived on the scene. This What they're looking for is
how this whole thing went down, of course. And along with the rope evidence, they're able to determine the
following fairly quickly. That the killing took place sometime between 1:00 p.m., when Donna's friend
dropped her off at the house, and what they're a little murky on is did this murder occur before Kathy
and her friend arrived at the house, which seems the most likely, or when Harvey arrived home, or did it
occur shortly after he arrived home. They're a little suspicious, of course. Well, it seems like the perpetrator
would have to to spend a lot of time in the house. So possibly they would have left DNA or
fingerprints. So there's no sign of a break-in. There was little sign of of any actual
struggle as well. This is concerning for police. The cause of death is five .22 caliber bullets fired into
the back of Donna's head. There was evidence at the scene that suggests that the killer, as you said,
spent a considerable amount of time in the home. This could be a couple of hours.
We talk about the cut lengths of rope that are found in several different locations of the home. Right. Now, two
very important key elements to this murder, the weapon was found at the scene. Now, this is not terribly uncommon, but
more times than not, when a gun is used in the commission of a homicide, it is removed from the scene. The killer takes
it with them and disposes of the gun elsewhere or keeps it sometimes for the purpose of committing future crimes.
Now, why do you think that is? Well, in this case, the .22 caliber death instrument was not only left at the
scene, but was found pinned between the legs of the victim. And even more curious,
the gun belonged to Harvey Pounds, the husband. Okay, so the perpetrator comes in, brings his own rope, probably
brings his own knife, does brings other things, but uses the homeowner's gun. Correct. That's the way that it looks.
That's the way that it sounds with their discussion going on with Harvey at the time. Now, mind you,
Harvey's being pretty forthcoming. That's my gun. Number one. But, he's the only one that can tell you if that rope
came from the house or not. And he's saying that we didn't have any rope in the house. That is not our rope.
Now, I read somewhere that this stuff was the holdback information, meaning that
how many times she was shot and where they found the gun and who the gun actually belonged to.
Right. I read several places that said that that is the the holdback information. Now,
I'm not calling [ __ ] on that, but if that was the holdback information, they managed to hold it back all of 2 days
because all three of those items were in the newspaper 2 days after the murder. Right.
A couple of items that were in fact held back was that Donna's clothing was found in the upstairs master
bedroom. Also found upstairs were some bullets. This means that shots were fired in the
upstairs of the house, not just the downstairs in the basement where we have our victim shot five
times. Right, but do we know if she was sexually assaulted? It's believed that she was. But was that when she was alive
or is that postmortem? There is every indication that the sexual assault took place upstairs in
the bedroom where we found the rope. Okay. And they held that back at the time for 2 days? Well, they they held that
back for quite some time actually along with the the stuff that I just went through. But the idea that this initial
stuff was going to be held back seems like a big deal. I think the problem is because the murder weapon belonged to
Harvey Pounds, it's tough to hold that back. Right. Because now you have a concern that he
might be your suspect. Right. And if you're walking into this case as an investigator, you're going, "Okay,
who's the most likely suspect? Bing bing bing bing, the husband. All bing bing bing bing bing,
it's his gun." And then you start wondering, "Did they get into an argument and then
did he stage this whole scene to make it look like something it wasn't. Mhm. Yeah.
Yeah, immediately Harvey was a suspect. This of course makes a lot of sense. He's the husband. You know, we've all
seen the shirts that say the husband did it. Mhm. Truecrimegarage.com. The murder
We don't sell those. We don't have those anymore. The murder weapon belonged to him as we said, and
he found the body, right? Now, everyone knows that the husband or the spouse is not only often an early suspect, but
if you watch three episodes of Dateline, on two of them the spouse turns out to be the murderer. Right.
Then compound this with it is his gun and he found the victim. It's also not terribly uncommon for the
person who quote found the victim to actually be the one who committed the murder. Right. And of course you have to
factor in that there is no sign of forced entry. So, either Mrs. Pounds let the killer
into the home or the killer somehow had access to the home. Well, I just want to
stop on that for a second cuz right now you say the population is 75,000. Today, yes.
Right. So, back then 30,000. And right. So, not a lot of people I guarantee you a lot of people were not locking every
door. But there are a couple problems with the theory that Harvey killed his wife. First, the police had two other
leads on the case that needed to be investigated. Next, Mrs. Pounds was alive and well when Harvey, Karen, and
Kathy left for the day. She's alive and well when her friend drops her off at 1:00 p.m.
Kathy and her friend did not see nor encounter anyone else inside the home until her father returned over an hour
after the two kids arrived. So, if we are to believe our witnesses, Kathy and her friend, then Mrs. Donna
Pounds was dead before Harvey even returned from work. Now, going against Harvey is someone in
the neighborhood who says that they think that they saw Harvey's vehicle at the Pounds house at some point during
the day, but couldn't be sure. All right. Look, I'm all for see something, say something.
But, you're running a risk here of of locking this man up for the rest of his life by going, "Uh
I think I saw him his vehicle at their house sometime during the work day." Well, we have five shots. So, do we have
anybody that's ear witness? No, we have no ear witnesses in the case and that's what's
weird because we know that the five shots that that killed this poor woman took place in the basement of the home.
Okay, so that's somewhat you can explain that away. Maybe that muffles the sound
a little bit, but there's evidence that shots were fired at in the upstairs of the home as well. Okay.
But, again, maybe maybe everybody's just gone. Maybe everybody else is just at work or at school during the time that
this murder took place. The problem with the idea of this neighbor saying, "I might have seen
Harvey's vehicle at the Pounds house during the daytime." We have several people
who say and confirm that Harvey was at work that day for the entirety of the work day.
Right. So, this I might have seen his vehicle doesn't seem like such a such a It's definitely not a concrete
thing, but it doesn't even seem like a a good possibility at this point. Okay, so
what are the other two leads in this case? Mhm. The first comes from the statement
of a another potential witness. This is a neighbor that said that sometime during the day they saw a young man in
the Pounds backyard. He described the young man as someone who lived down the street. You know, it
looks like this kid that lives down the street. A white guy, young, maybe roughly 20 years of age.
So, police went to where it was thought that this young man lived, and they spoke with a guy named Wayne Nance. Mhm.
He's 18 at the time. Wayne fit the description, and not only did he live in the neighborhood, and
he's lived there for several years, he lives there with his father and brother. Um they got a fairly big family, I
believe. Mother, father, and four kids, including Wayne. He was friends with the Pounds' son,
Kenny. Remember, Kenny is off at the army at this time. Right. So, he knows the Pounds family,
not just by living in the neighborhood. He was good friends with this kid at one
point in their lives. Wayne had been inside the Pounds home on several occasions. Police questioned the young
man, who said he had been home for the entirety of the day nursing a cold. He says, "I've mostly been sleeping and
watching TV." So, he doesn't really have much of an alibi. He's supposed to be in school
that day. Right. Police strongly questioned Wayne's lack of a real alibi, and they decided to keep him on their
very short list of suspects. But, other than that, they did not have much to go on. Plus, they had that other lead.
Yeah, this kid is skipping school, drinking back the old Robitussin, jerking off to The Price Is Right. This
other lead they found is quite suspicious. A young man, 19 years of age, his name
Clyde Wickstrom, was found on Interstate 90, about 12 miles outside of town. When he's found, he's dying from a
self-inflicted gunshot to the head. Oh. Clyde was rushed to the hospital where he soon died.
Police wondered and publicly they wondered and said this to the papers, could it be that Clyde was the young man
spotted in the backyard of the Pounds home? Now, did did he have a gun on him at the time? Yes. He did. Okay, so that
to me kind of pushes him away because why would he use why would he use the homeowner's gun
when he had a gun with him? That's a good question. You know, they they asked the papers,
they were asking and wondering did he attack and kill Mrs. Pounds and then due to the guilt or fear of getting
caught or both that he decided to take his own life? That's the thing though. The percentage of these killers that are
actually guilty or feel anything is pretty small. It It can be. I mean, everybody has a different reaction to to
their actions. And maybe the person Look, I don't want to go down that road because it's a long
one and it's going to lead us nowhere because as you pointed out Clyde decided to take his own life.
He used his own gun. Why would he choose to use the Pounds .22 found inside the home? And if Clyde knew the gun used in
the murder could not be tied to him well, then you start to wonder what's my chances of getting caught. Right, but so
if we have these two leads, it's pretty simple. Wayne has been in their house. So, if
his fingerprints are in the house, it's kind of hard to say when they got there.
This guy, Clyde he has no connection to the family. So, if his fingerprints are anywhere in the house, then he's guilty.
Yeah, the theory quickly unraveled in just a little over 24 hours after the murder of Mrs. Donna Pounds, the
Missoula County Sheriff's Office announced that any possible connection between the murder of Mrs. Pounds,
mother of three, and the death of 19-year-old Clyde Wickstrom had been ruled out.
All right, we're back, Cheers mates. He's back. I'm back. He's back. Tall cans in the air,
everybody. Robitussin in the air. Within days, the sheriff's department announced another possibility that there
could be a connection between Mrs. Pounds' murder and the slaying of a Billings, Montana couple
that was murdered in their home a little more than 6 months before Mrs. Pounds was murdered.
Law enforcement from both cities announced that they would be working together to see if there was in fact a
connection between what the sheriff was calling two bizarre sets of crimes. Right, but this makes the whole
community go on high alert. Yeah. Yeah. And we should point out that the cities, although in the same state, you
know, Montana is a big state. And the two cities of Missoula and Billings are about a 5-hour drive from one another.
So, in the same state, but not really close at all. Okay, so let's go through the double
slayings in Billings, Montana. This is a young married couple, and this is Mr. and Mrs. Clifford and Linda
Bernhardt. They were found dead inside their home by Linda's mother. She was unable to reach her daughter and
son-in-law by phone for a couple of days and decided to go to the home to investigate
and found both of them dead in an obvious double homicide. The couple were both 24 years of age and
had been married for 4 years and they recently moved into this home. I think it might even have been a new build.
Clifford was an army sergeant and Linda worked at the grocery store. Clifford was found lying face down in a
pool of blood. Linda was found in a bedroom sexually assaulted and strangled. There was no sign of forced entry into
the home. There was evidence that both victims at one time during the attack were tied at
the wrist and ankles, but detectives did not locate the bindings at the scene. So, meaning the killer took them with
him. Also taken from the scene were several of Linda's personal items. This included
a suitcase and some of her clothing. But, there were some even more bizarre things about this crime scene.
One, it appeared that the couple was getting ready to sit down for their evening dinner when something terrible
happened. Meaning, they were attacked just before supper time. Dinner was prepared and set out on the
counter as if it was about to be served. Even more strange, the table was set, but not for two people. The table was
set for three people. It was looking like the Bernhards' dinner guest either never arrived or
killed them both. He didn't like what they were serving. Right. Another odd behavior of the
killer, Would you like tuna salad? He turned the heat way down in the home and opened up several of the windows.
In the couple of days that it took for the bodies to be found, the low temperature was 6° during those days.
Now, if any connection was made between these two horrific crimes at that time, it's really unknown and probably not
likely. But, it was never really mentioned again. They said two agencies are going
to work together on this and then it kind of disappears from the news. Did we have any uh
tampering with the thermostat? At the Pounds home? Right. No, we did not. Mhm. So, of course, this is something we have
seen in many other cases where law enforcement will say they're looking for connection either between two somewhat
similar crimes or maybe a location. You know, we've we've covered cases where they start talking about pig farms,
church, gun stores, state park, uh even stating that they're looking for connection to a known offender,
someone recently picked up for something completely else. But, after a couple of
days, it just fades from the news. They don't ever really announce, "Oh, we were
looking at this guy and we didn't find anything." It just kind of goes away and we don't hear much about it again.
What we do hear about in the Donna Pounds case is a surgical glove. The sheriff's department, of course,
canvassed the area immediately, going door-to-door asking questions. That's how they got the lead on the Wayne
Nance, the witness who said they saw a young man in the Pounds backyard. And that was what led them to question
him. As said, Nance was a senior in high school and some of the officers thought
this type of horrible heinous act could not have been perpetrated by some kid from the local high school.
This surgical glove, however, was quite important. And of course, they thought so and it was not ever hold back
information. The The authorities found the glove just outside of the Pounds neighborhood. It was a single latex or
what some would call a rubber surgical glove. It looked like someone had just tossed
it on the ground. Isn't it amazing how many cases are similar? Like when you think of
the actions that probably took place in the Pounds home, the instruments that were brought,
the way she was found, the way that she was bound, that really reminds me a lot of like
BTK. Mhm. But then you have this glove that's found out in the yard. Remind Reminds me a lot of the Terri
Schiavo case. Well, you see what type of people litter? What type of losers who litter? If you
litter, you're obviously a psychopath. That's today's lesson, kids. Yeah. So, this glove is important because they
believe there was blood on it. So, they sent it to the FBI crime labs for analysis.
Thought to be the best at the time. They are hoping for two results. One, the very unlikely chance that the
glove contained both the killer's blood and the victim's or fingerprints from the person who took
the glove off. At this time, of course, Captain, they would just be simply looking for blood
type that could directly connect the killer to the victim or at the very least match the victim's blood so they
know that the glove was used in the commission of the crime. Right. But of course, the test would take time
and regardless of what the results came back with, law enforcement wanted to find the match to this glove, right?
Another single glove in someone's possession or even a box of gloves that match this glove.
So, the sheriff's office asked everyone in the area for their help. They were very public about this surgical glove
finding. They want to know, has anyone seen gloves like this in someone's possession? Or do they know anyone that
uses these types of gloves? More importantly, if people could go outside and check their yards to see if the
second glove was discarded elsewhere, or maybe even the gloves were tossed together
and a dog or something made off with one of them. We've covered true crime stories where
dogs show up running back to their owners with bones or body parts. Right. So, the the moving of a glove
does not seem strange at all. Now, like with most towns, Captain, there are going to be some local rumors,
and some of them make their way to the police or even the newspapers, and some of them don't. And just like this case,
the rumors from the '70s and '80s, when there is an unsolved mur- when there is an unsolved murder, are
always very interesting. We are coming up on Halloween, the old trick-or-treat time, and we've covered
plenty of cases where they cancel beggars' night because of local rumors, because of an unsolved murder and local
rumors. Right. So, what were some of the local rumors here in Missoula at the time?
I I'm going to warn you, I'm not going to go through all of them because there were quite a bit. There was a a bunch of
stuff swirling around, and we would later learn that the majority of them don't carry much weight. They're just
not true, but the more interesting ones that swirled around was the idea of a cult or witchcraft being involved in the
Donna Pounds murder. One rumor tied directly to the murder of Donna is that an individual involved in the
occult or Satanist was the killer. The rumor was that either a note or a letter of some type was found near the
Donna Pounds crime scene that described the quote ritual that was that this individual needed
to kill three people to give themselves to Satan. All right. The need to kill three
people. First, according to this rumor they needed to kill or sacrifice a virgin. Then kill or sacrifice someone
who is a faithful Christian. And then the third murder would be that of a betrayer.
If this is true, then Donna Pounds, the wife of Harvey, who spends most of his time working for the church Right. she
must be the faithful Christian follower. Okay, so that means that someone, the virgin, has already been murdered.
And then Donna Pounds was killed and someone else, the third victim, still needs to to die or this occultist or
Satanist uh for them to achieve their goal. So, who was the virgin? Well, sadly, there was a local case
to connect that theory to. And that was the very sad case that started just 2 months earlier
with the abduction of a little girl. On Tuesday, February 5th, 1974 a youngster described as precocious and
friendly this is little 5-year-old Shavon McGuinness. She vanished around 7:00 p.m. on that
night in early February. She was last seen by her neighborhood friend at approximately 7:00 p.m. Shavon
was at her friend's house. The friend lives in the same neighborhood. Around 6:30 p.m. Shavon's mother,
Bonnie, called the friend's house, spoke with Shavon, tells her she needs to come home soon.
The two little girls walked from the friend's house and headed in the direction of Shavon's
home. Right. When the two reached about the halfway mark, this is right near Whittier School, three blocks from
Shavon's home, the two parted ways. What kind of school is it? Elementary, middle
school, high school? I have no idea. Uh it The papers just said Whittier School. Again, this is only about three
blocks from Shavon's home. The two part ways, her friend turned around and is going to head back to her
house, and Shavon presumably continued on her way. However, she never made it to her home.
Yeah. Shavon's mother reported her missing at 8:45 p.m. Now, the search intensified after a
report of an attempted assault on another 5-year-old in the neighborhood earlier that day.
According to police reports, a man with curly red hair talked this other girl into a shack or a shed on the north side
of Missoula and tried to molest her. The girl, according to the papers, escaped unharmed.
The February 7th newspaper featured a sketch of the man sought in the molestation attempt.
Police did say that there was no official link between the two crimes. Do we know if it's a older man or a younger
man? Judging by the sketch, it appears to be a younger man. Right. Another lead was a report that came in
from another local school. This is from the Paxton school officials that said a man was seen near their school asking
children to get into his car so that he could take pictures of them. Yeah, that's a that's an innocent hobby, isn't
it? Yeah. The description of this man did not match that of the description of the man
saw in the molestations. with people? You know what I mean? What's wrong with people? Well, and then
you got to go a step further and you go, "Okay, what is scarier here?" Do we have
one guy going around to multiple schools looking for a potential victim, or do we
have three individuals who are all deviants into different weird stuff? Right. Unfortunately, Captain Shavon's body was
found in a culvert by a county road worker at the Turah, I believe it's pronounced Turah, t u r a h exit from
Interstate 90. She was found at approximately 3:45 p.m. on Thursday, February 7th.
The body was reported to be bloodied and there was a blood trail found beneath a
new layer of snow. So, it's early February, it's cold out, it's Montana, which gets even colder than
here. They were experiencing snowfall within several, you know, period of several
days. Uh-huh. And however this blood got there, it had it got there and it was on top of some
snow, but then there was an additional layer of snow that had fallen on top of this blood trail.
There's some weird things going on here though, Captain. There were no human footprints found in the area,
but there were several dog prints found in the area. And mind you, they find this trail of blood that leads down from
the road out to this culvert where she is eventually discovered underneath that layer of the new layer of snow. Right,
but the dog didn't transfer her out there. Well, you just you just totally poked holes in my my theory. I was going
to say I've not found anything to confirm my suspicions, but I think it's possible she was dumped right at the
side of the road and then dragged the dogs dragged the body to where she was eventually found.
Okay, look, is it possible, but wouldn't we have some drag marks on the body, drag marks
in the area? We could. We could. It's I just find it weird that we find dog tracks but no
human prints. Mhm. But it but also that might give you a clue of when the body was left because
it if the if it was dry or cold, we wouldn't have any footprints of a human. She was found frozen and fully clothed.
Now, witnesses reported seeing two distinct vehicles in the area of the dump site, maybe even roughly the time
that it's believed that she could have been dumped. One of the reports states that the
police were looking for a 1959 or 1960 Ford Fairlane with Montana license plates.
The other and this seems to be more they were more focused on this other vehicle and you'll
see why here in just a second. A heavy focus on this vehicle. This was either a 1958
to 1960, so 1958, 59, or 1960 green Cadillac with New York plates. Now, that's very interesting
because this car sounds even more distinctive than the other. And plus we have the out of state
plates. Right. So, it might have been noticed by other people in the area at the time or even the town over. Well,
not a close neighboring state. Right. And yeah, because you have New York and then you have parts unknown and then
Montana. Right, but if you're Parts unknown is huge. Right, if you're in Ohio and you
and you see like an Indiana license plate, not that big of a deal. Or if you see a Kentucky or if you can see see
Michigan, it's not that big of a deal. But you see a New York license plate, you go, "Oh, that
It always sticks out a little bit more." Look there, Captain Ice Suit. You see that? There's a New York City plate.
All right. So, this is interesting though, too, because along with this description of the car, Mhm. we get a
description of the driver of this car. He looks like a guy from New York City. That's right.
The descrip- The driver is described as a middle-aged white man wearing dark clothing and a baseball cap.
Uh-huh. The left rear fender skirt on the vehicle was missing. So, even more descriptiveness, if that's
a word. Right. Later on, the autopsy revealed that the little girl died from multiple stab wounds and she had been
sexually assaulted. Now, regardless whether or not the two unsolved murders were connected, and I
know we've covered several murders by this point, but I'm talking about Donna Pounds
and Shavon Mcguinness, the little girl. Well, the reason why I wouldn't discount it is the idea that
I think in the Pounds case, it almost seems like the perpetrator had this idea or had this um
plan and then it got switched around once he found the gun of the homeowner. Mhm. Meaning like So, just because they
were just because the murders happened by two different uh inflictions or injuries. I wouldn't separate the two
necessarily. Correct. Maybe he showed up with the knife that he used on Shavon Mcginnis
and decided that's not the way. finds a gun or threatens the homeowner, uh you got any weapons? And she she
reveals where the the weapon may be. Mhm. And then decides to use Oh, I'll use the gun because there's no
connection to me. Right. And I'll just leave it here because if I don't take it with me, again, no connection to me.
Yeah, but I'd also think on some level it'd just be easier. Like that you have to have some kind of
more of a raw emotion, more of possibly a hatred for the individual. Like they said, when there's a stabbing
victim, it's normally a crime of passion. Well, maybe these are just sexually motivated crimes. Then you have to
murder the person to cover it up, but the murder is just to cover it up. Mhm. It's not part
of the sexual fantasy. Right. And there in lies some more difficulty to me when I when I look at both of these crimes,
where you go, okay, well, why is murder necessary to cover up these crimes? That
usually points to the victim could identify the perpetrator. Not just in description, but maybe even knows them
by name. Right. And a little girl, her circle is much smaller socially than than an adult.
Than a a woman who's in her late 30s, early 40s. But generally, an adult will have a much larger social circle than a
four, five, or six-year-old child. Right, but what I'm saying is that I think this perpetrator is
I I think this murderer knows his victims without the victims knowing him as well as he knows them.
Regardless whether or not the two unsolved murders were actually connected, they were now linked in the
minds of the public, and this will be for a couple of reasons. One, the satanic panic letter rumor that was
going around. Got to kill a virgin, got to kill a follower, got to kill a betrayer. That means that this person
has achieved steps one and two, and now is looking for their third victim. The second reason, the murder rate is
very, very low in this area of the country. Montana has a very low murder rate, especially at this time, at the mid-70s.
They would usually have one or two murders a year, sometimes none. But when they had murders,
they were solved. They were solved easily. It all too often was the usual suspects.
The husband or the boyfriend did it. Or someone the victim had been feuding with committed the homicide.
So, these are linked in the minds of the public simply because they don't get that many murders, and
both of these ones are sitting there unsolved at the time. Two murders with extreme differences in
victimology, in my opinion, but still must be connected because they occurred within
two months and a few days of each other, and they are both unsolved. Back to the
Donna Pounds case. We still have some suspects, and there was rumor surrounding our victim's
husband, Harvey Pounds. Local rumor was that he was having an affair leading up to the murder of his
wife. Detectives investigated this angle quite thoroughly, as the local rumored was detailed enough
that it often named the woman that Harvey was thought to be having this affair with.
Police spoke to this woman on several occasions. And after investigating, they were having a hard time believing
that the affair rumor was even true. But one thing they didn't like was Harvey. Harvey was not only fully cooperating
with the investigation. This is one of those weird stories, Captain, where we hear all the time oh, this guy quit
talking to police. The boyfriend or the husband was not cooperating Right. with police. This is one of those weird
times where they go, he's fully cooperating and we don't feel good about it. They say that he was a little too
cooperative. He was constantly out in his yard and walking the neighborhood looking for
clues and then calling the sheriff's department reporting every irrelevant small find that he came across.
They thought it was like he was trying to steer the investigation. Well, yeah. Like he
he's bringing up something he found a block over. I found this rock on the side of the road and they're going, oh,
you're just you're just throwing us off the scent. Right. That's what their thoughts are. Can you imagine this guy?
Let's say he's innocent, right? Let's say he's the victim here. His wife has just been killed and he's been told by
police, oh, we're investigating this lead that somebody was seen in your backyard. Right.
We're investigating this lead so much so to the point where we're begging the public for their help that we found a
surgical glove. Could you all go out in your yards and look for the second one? Mhm.
It seems to me like he's kind of doing what the police are asking the public to do.
He's out walking the neighborhood in his yard looking for that other surgical glove or looking for right? They're
like, go out and look for this stuff and he's looking for it and they're like, man, Right, but Mr. Harvey Ponds, don't
you dare go out and look for this stuff. You seem a little suspicious when you do
it. They thought that it was like he was trying to steer the investigation. Maybe
he's trying to direct the narrative of the evidence we don't know the tied to the evidence.
We don't know the demeanor of this individual either cuz like you know, going back to the original
when the investigators show up and you have to talk to the husband that knowing what we know, knowing that the
percentages is most likely that the spouse is involved in the murder of another spouse.
So, when you show up you don't want to just assume that. You don't want to say that they're guilty before you have
any proof of that. But you're going to be looking at them with suspicious eyes anyways. Well, and
that was the issue within the sheriff's department itself. You kind of had a split down the middle of opinions with
the officers and the investigators. You had half the room that seemed to know Harvey Pounds pretty well and they
understood how religious this man was. And they're going he could have never have killed his wife because that's not
in his nature. That's not who Harvey is. He's not a violent individual. He's very
involved in his church. And then you have the other half of the room going maybe these rumors are true and he
certainly looks like a good suspect. He's the husband. His gun was used to kill this woman.
So, you really had a split down the middle within the sheriff's department. These people arguing, these officers
arguing amongst each other as to what the direction of the investigation should be. Right.
One thing that Harvey reported that the sheriff's department did not like at all
was a bullet that he found inside his home. He said that he found a bullet lodged
inside of a book that was in one of the rooms on a bookshelf in the upstairs. The problem that the Sheriff's
Department had with this bullet that Harvey Pounds found was they couldn't believe that they didn't find it. Right.
This could have simply have been one of the shots that was fired upstairs and they didn't find this bullet for
whatever reason. Now, the way that this was found, the way that I understand it to be anyway, Captain, was that the book
was positioned as such on the shelf that the not the uh binding or whatever you the spine Mhm. wasn't out, it was the
pages. The pages side was out. Mhm. So, when this bullet was fired from wherever
in the room, it got lodged in some of the pages of the book. Right. But, there was another rumor that was going around
at the time and this had nothing to do with Harvey Pounds. And this was something that started off
sounding like a rumor, but could actually be really true. The rumor was that this odd kid in
school, his name Wayne Nance, he's the same one that's already been questioned by police, the kid that skipped school
because he wasn't feeling well on the same day that Donna Pounds was murdered. Right.
The rumor going around school was that Nance had told a few other students that he was going to kill someone before he
turned 19 years of age. So, again, again, they're all connected. They're all little pieces of of the same puzzle.
This reminds me of Damien Echols. Right. Right. When reviewing this case, that's
one thing that kept popping up and you already mentioned BTK and you'll see some
some things that will remind you of the Golden State Killer as well. This is really a very fascinating case.
And these rumors that are going around at the school, Nance says to a couple people, "Hey, I'm going to kill somebody
before I turn 19." He's 18 at this time. He's running out of time if that's what
he's really going to do. I mean, thinking back on high school and middle school, I don't remember ever hearing
somebody say anything like that I thought was like insane. Like this. Right. Right. Violently insane.
Like I mean, I heard Kids say a lot of dumb stuff. Yeah. I heard a lot of dumb [ __ ] but I
told people I was going to be Batman when I grew up. Mhm. Still working on that. All the I turned
in my job application the other day. Failure. Yeah. Gotham City mayor denied my application. I'm Batman. If you get a
call by the way, I used you as a reference. I used you as a reference. If you you
need to answer the phone Vandelay Industries for the next few days. So, this kid, here's what's weird about
this though, Captain. Mhm. The principal catches wind of this, and it's not because he's, you know, out in the halls
and hears these kids speaking. The kids that that Nance supposedly told this to,
they weren't going around school and blabbing this to everybody. No, because once Donna Pounds is found murdered
in the neighborhood where Nance lives, these kids aren't blabbing about it because they're afraid of all of a
sudden. They're afraid, and they've already heard the rumor of the occult letter or
satanic note that was supposedly found in the area of the crime scene. You mean, they're just
afraid in general, not afraid of Wayne. No, I think it's twofold. I think they're afraid in general because there
is a killer out there, but they're they're extra afraid because they think they know the killer. They think it is
Nance. One of the kids that was in very good upstanding with the school, with the
teachers and the principal, his name was Bill, and he knew Nance fairly well. I wouldn't call them
friends, but he goes to the principal and he says, "Look, this is what Wayne Nance was telling people before Donna
Pounds was killed. That he was going to kill someone before he turned 19. Wayne is weird. We just all thought it
was Wayne being Wayne." Now, Donna Pounds is dead and in a roundabout way, Bill tells the
principal, "I believe Wayne was trying to tell me that he killed Donna Pounds." How this comes about is Bill says that
one day he's hanging out with Wayne at school. Again, I they're not they don't seem to be friends. They just know each
other from school. Right, they might have to sit beside each other in class. And Wayne said something to Bill like,
"It has been done." or "It is done." And mind you, Bill has this Donna Pounds murder on his mind. So, he thinks that
that's what Wayne is referencing and Wayne tells him, "No, I'm he's talking about something else." Bill doesn't
believe him. Bill is afraid enough that he goes to the principal to tell him this, begging that the principal
does not, you know, don't tell anybody other than the police. The principal's in this weird spot
because he's going, "All right, you know, kids will be kids." He's he's probably got several years under his
belt. He knows how kids behave, how teenagers behave. And he's going, "Is this something that
I go to the police with or is this just something weird that this kid is telling
me?" Again, You go to the police and let them decide. Our victim is in her early 40s.
The person that is rumored to be a suspect is Wayne Nance, who's a senior in high school. Mhm.
The principal does mention this to the the sheriff. He calls the head honcho at the sheriff's department, discusses what
is going on there. Now, the principal is unaware at this time that the sheriff's
department actually spoke to Wayne Nance early in their investigation. Now, what you have, remember we had the
split room at the sheriff's department where half of them believe that Harvey Ponds killed his wife and the other half
didn't? Well, now the half that did not believe that Harvey Ponds killed his wife, they think Wayne Nance killed
Donna Ponds. What you have here is you have arguments going on within the department of people saying,
"Get me a search warrant. Let me put the pressure on Harvey Ponds and I'll get a confession or I'll get
the evidence you need to convict Harvey Ponds." You have the other half of the room saying, "We need to look into this
Wayne Nance kid. This could be some serious stuff here." What they do is they bring both of them
in for a polygraph test. Wayne Nance passes the polygraph with flying colors. According to his answers, he had nothing
to do nor knows nothing about the murder of Donna Ponds. The results of Harvey Ponds' test are
inconclusive. Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. A lot of people have
been talking about the Netflix documentary American Murder about Chris Watts. We covered that case. It's titled
Christopher Watts episode 269 and 270 and you can find those episodes for free. Just download the Stitcher app and
also check out our bonus show called Off the Record. Join us back here in the garage
tomorrow. Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.

The Missoula Mauler /// Part 1 /// 431

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Two murders take place in Missoula Montana in early 1974. Both cases are mysterious and the public starts to wonder are these murders connected? In the mid-80’s a married Missoula couple is murdered inside their home. The killer attempted to burn the house down with the victim’s children still inside. Why is this killer terrorizing the people of Missoula Montana and will he ever be caught?

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the unsolved murders of Donna Pounds and Christy Crystal Creek, highlighting forensic investigations and potential suspects.

Key points

The Mystery of Christy Crystal Creek. For over 20 years, Christy Crystal Creek's identity remains unknown, with hopes for discovery.
A Family's Tragic Routine. On April 11th, 1974, the Pounds family’s normal day turns into a nightmare.
Clyde Wickstrom's Mysterious Death. A young man found dying from a self-inflicted gunshot raises questions about his connection to a murder.
Bizarre Double Homicide in Billings. A young couple is found dead in their home, with strange circumstances surrounding their murder.
The Surgical Glove Clue. A single surgical glove found near the crime scene could hold vital evidence.
The Complexity of Murder Motivations. Exploring why murder is often a means to cover up other crimes.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

"There's no getting around it. We need some luck.".

Captain Hintz discusses the challenges of identifying Christy Crystal Creek.

5:43WatchNov 11, 2022

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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