Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay (Part 2) | | Full Episode + Killer Conversation Podcast | Forensic Files

48 hours continues. I think that everyone who knew Sebastian thought that he was going on to do
something interesting with his life. Yeah. People expected him to be a leader, to do something interesting. and
um I hope one day he will. [Music] Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé should have been celebrating at the West Vancouver
High School 10-year reunion. Instead, they had become the class of 93's most infamous graduates.
Prosecutors say just one year out of high school, these brilliant best friends tried to commit the perfect
murder. It was a brutal crime. There's blood all over his face that shocked the upscale
suburb of Belleview, Washington. Af's mother, father, and sister bludgeoned to death.
The motive, insurance money. The boys got away and were living in Canada until undercover police officers
caught them on tape boasting about how they did it. Three people at once. Uh otherwise
now on the eve of their murder trial, a judge would decide if a jury would get to hear those chilling confessions.
[Music] I do not find the undercover officer's conduct in this case shocking or outrageous. Although they were
deceitful, persistent and aggressive. They engaged in tricks but not dirty tricks.
It was a controversial ruling allowing the boy's own words to be used against them. What should you do first? Um the
mother and would set the tone for the whole trial. Just how powerful is the impact of this video of these two
boys confessing to murders? It's incredibly powerful. When I first saw it, I was taken aback. I was shocked.
There are two young men seemingly laughing about slaughtering three people and saying, "I did it." And while the
confessions may be shocking, the defense says they're not true. This case is about what happens when a presumption of
guilt, when a gut feeling that you have the right suspects takes over from logical and objective evaluation of the
evidence. This case is about what happens when you pursue individuals as opposed to pursuing the truth. Finally,
in November 2003, more than 9 years after the Rafé family murders, Sebastian and Aif get their day in court. The jury
is going to finally hear the story of what really happened to the Rafé family, and they'll hear the story of
Sebastian's innocence. But prosecutors had a very different story to tell. Sebastian Burns is
young, thoughtful, charismatic, manipulative, and most importantly, a killer. A brutal killer. You've been portrayed
as a monster. Yeah. Yes. Maniacal, plotting, a murderer. Are you those things? No.
The state's theory is we want to make the jurors hate these two young men. Essentially, they make it a test of
character as opposed to a test of evidence. And character is at the heart of the prosecution's case. All rise.
Superior court is now in session. The defendants were two young men who believed they could commit the perfect
murder. Roger David Heiser opened for the state. Ladies and gentlemen, what you will hear in the end is that it was
this very hubris that sealed their fate and their arrogant and unrealistic belief that they were smart enough to
achieve mastery over the police and their investigation. He zeroed in on the piece of evidence that launched the case
and for the first time revealed a startling flaw in the boy's plan. There's uh I need uh an ambulance. They
made that 911 call too quickly. They're we think they're dead. My belief is that
they just walked straight into the house and made the 911 call. The timing was critical. So, we asked
Detective Thompson to retrace their drive home from downtown Seattle where they were last seen that night.
Uh 18 minutes. What does that tell you? And 18 minutes would give them three minutes in the house.
And three minutes, said the prosecutors, was not enough time in the house to find
the bodies and do all the things Sebastian and Aif told the police they did. And think about what they had to do
in that 3 minutes. Three minutes to arrive home, pull the family car into the garage, enter the
home through the garage, discover and comprehend that Sultana, Tariq, and Bosma have been brutally attacked and
laid dead in three different areas of that house. The revelation startled the defense, but
Song Richardson was thinking on her feet. asking you, how long does it take to walk into a house and see these two
brutally butchered bodies of a thief's family and then run downstairs and call 911 and turn the prosecution's argument
on its head? How long is 3 minutes? Well, let's see. That was about a minute and a half. But
remember, it wasn't just the murders. In that 3 minutes, the boys also had to figure out there had been a burglary and
that a VCR and Discman were missing. There's been some kind of breakin. I hear the voice of a person who has
contrived a story that can only be explained by somebody who knew very well what had
happened in the Rafé family home. I was out of my mind at the time. I was totally in shock, totally
staggered and and confounded and and was almost totally hysterical. In a case where every minute matters,
the defense bolsters their claim of the boy's innocence by playing up statements
the neighbors on both sides of the Rafé house gave to police in the days following the murders. The neighbors
initially said that they heard pounding coming from inside the Rafé house at a time when the boys have an airtight
alibi. You were standing in this driveway and that's Mark Sidell lived right next door to the Rafes. How loud
were the bangs you were hearing? Um, they're pretty hard hit. A little bit harder to need hang a a
picture. Sidel says back then he didn't think a murder was taking place next door and figured the Rafes who had just
moved in were probably unpacking. I sort of thought about going over and helping
him so they could go to sleep, but luckily that night I didn't. The Rafa's other nextoor neighbor, Julie Rackley,
testified that she also heard sounds. Initially, I thought it just sounded like hammering. It had sort of an odd
resonance to it. The neighbors who heard these sounds, described them in great detail, and verified what they were for
the police all heard them well before 10:00 at night. And at 10:00, Sebastian and Aif were still seen at the movie
theater. If the jury believes these initial reports that Mark Sidell and Judy Rackley gave to police, your case
could be in trouble. Absolutely. You can't be in two places at one time. There's no debating that point. There
are two independent neighbors who separately heard the murder happen at the end of twilight before 10:00
and we were known to be on the other side of town when that happened. It was impossible for us to have committed this
crime. Prosecutors contend it is possible. Even though the boys were seen going to the 950 movie, there's no proof
that they stayed. Is there a way for these two boys to exit the theater without drawing attention to themselves?
Say during the movie. Jose Martinez sold the boys movie tickets that night and he
showed us how they could sneak out from this theater. Go out this exit behind the curtain or the other one over there.
So if they slip through this curtain, you're not letting any light into the theater. Correct. Then up these stairs
and out this exit door. Doors outside. The defense protested that even though it could have happened
that way, there was no proof that it did and that prosecutors were grasping at straws to get a conviction. They sifted
through Sebastian's history and his life and a Tif's history and his life and tried to find anything that would make
them look like bad people. In fact, months into the trial, prosecutors brought this intriguing surprise witness
from the boy's past who said she had evidence that could turn the case. But first, they would have to convince the
judge to let the jury hear what she had to say. Swear or affirm. Nazcol shift was a friend from the boy's high school
days who had dated Sebastian. What was this comment that Sebastian Burns made that that stood out at you? He said, "I
want to try to kill someone one day to see how how it would feel because I think I would find it enjoyable." She
claimed a late night conversation she'd had years ago with the boys in her bedroom had planted the seeds for
murder. Did you think he was serious? He wasn't laughing and he said it in a serious tone. Sebastian doesn't deny
having the conversation, but emphatically says he wasn't serious. It's uh a oneline paraphrase of a
sarcasm from a hippie-dippy 3:00 a.m. conversation 10 years ago, and I can't remember enough about it to defend
myself against it. If anyone would reflect on that and think, imagine if the worst parts of my personality, maybe
the worst moments when I was 18 years old that I would be reminded of them for the next nine years of my life and
that's that in the public's eye would be the person that I'd become. I think people would really shudder. It's a
nightmare. Thank you for your time and your testimony. It was certainly damning testimony, but the jury would never hear
it. There is no question. Had I known about this last spring, I would have admitted this.
4 months into this thing, I can't stop this process and let everyone dash to the four winds to try and research this.
The judge's decision flustered prosecutors. But there's another witness more powerful and much more damning. You
swear or affirm that the testimony of the friend the boys swore would never betray them.
[Music] Do you recognize Mr. Burns and Mr. Raf in the courtroom here today? Yes, I do.
It had been years since Jimmy Moshi had seen his high school buddies Sebastian and Aif.
Jimmy had moved to Japan and was living under another name when prosecutors forced him to return to Seattle and face
his friends at their murder trial. He was in no uncertain terms conflicted. In fact, he spent the last two or three
years of his life trying to avoid the eventuality of being compelled to come to court and testify about his against
his two best friends. Jimmy could have easily been sitting next to his best friends charged with a crime. Back in
1995 during the undercover operation, Jimmy was also a target of the RCMP. The RCMP believed Moshi helped the boys
plan the murder of the Rafé family and they wanted him to give a full confession on tape just like his friends
had done. You know what went on down there in that house? What went on? Yeah. But no matter how much he was pressed
for details, Moshi refused to implicate his friends in the murder. Okay. Do you know who killed the parents? Yeah. Who?
Is that what you want? Yeah. And um I just want I just wanted you to explain to me exactly the purposes of you want
to know is that so we can establish this kind of totally for trust totally for trust. Totally. In some ways was Jimmy
Moshi the smartest of them all. He's not in jail. [Music] In fact Jimmy was arrested with
Sebastian and a interrogated by authorities in Canada. He was told that he might face the death penalty himself.
He was told that his family, his job, his future would be ruined unless he said that Sebastian and Nativ confessed
to him. Back then, Jimmy told the police that his friends were innocent. At the time of your arrest on July 31, 1995,
were they honest answers? They were answers that I guess the intention of a lot of those answers was to to
protect Sebastian and Aif at that point on July 31, 1995. Why is it that you gave answers that were to designed to
protect Sebastian and Aif? I guess it was also in a way to protect myself. Um, but in general because I
didn't want Sebastian and Antif to get whatever arrested and potentially convicted. But under increasing
pressure, Moshi eventually agreed to cooperate. And in exchange, he was granted immunity from charges of
conspiracy to commit murder. Suddenly, he began to reveal more to the police about what he knew. But now the
question loomed. Would Moshi betray his best friends? Had this subject ever come up before,
the notion of of Aif Rafé killing his family? No, this was this was the first time.
In a halting voice that often dropped to a whisper, Jimmy told the court that it
was during a drive from Seattle to Vancouver when Aif first brought up the idea of killing his family. What was
your response to the notion of Hatif's notion of killing his family? I guess I was listening and um
I I mean he was my friend at the time and I guess in a way I was neutral on that notion. On the stand, Jimmy
recounted a discussion about how the boys would commit the crime. You remember which methods were discussed? I
remember something about um gassing the house and I remember discussion about um I guess using a
baseball bat. What do you remember about why uh why a baseball bat could or should be used? He has a quick and
painless way of killing someone. I don't think there's any question that he was a
sounding board for them. The prosecution says Jimmy consulted on an especially chilling part of the plan. Sebastian and
Natif stayed here at the Rafé family home during the 5 days before the murders. And it was no coincidence. It
was part of the plan, prosecutors say, to commit the perfect crime. if they had been living in the house previously that
any kind of hair or whatever samples um that were collected after um wouldn't um necessarily mean
that they had done it by virtue of their being in the house for several days. Any
fingerprint that would be found or could be found could be explained as a result
of there being there having been there for several days. Any hair evidence that might be found could be explained for
them having been in the house for several days prior to the murders. It's diabolical, but it's pretty clever.
Damn clever. Finally, Jimmy gave the prosecution what they needed. He said that a watched while Sebastian
bludgeoned the family. And I remember hearing about how um I guess a Tif was pretty distraught and that
um from the moment that Sebastian had struck his mother that it was kind of a there's no going back. And how hard was
it to sit and listen to Jimmy Mioshi's testimony? It was enormously difficult. I think it was difficult for him as
well. Um, as I say, I I am outraged that he did it. Um, but at the same time, I I think I I reserve my
real outrage for the people who forced him to do it. Did you discuss a plan to murder the Rafé family with Jimmy Moshi?
No, we didn't. Never. Why did Jimmy Moshi testify that you did? because he had a life sentence held to his head.
And if he didn't say what the police and the prosecution wanted him to say, that
life sentence was going to go off. It's the first time in 8 years that you have ever said anything like that, isn't it,
sir? Um, I'm not sure. And isn't what happened? The defense tried to hammer back. Jimmy once lied to save his
friends, so he could be easily lying now to save himself. You're making it up as
you go along, sir. That's why you're saying things for the first time. No, I don't believe I am. Do you believe that
Jimmy Moshi is a liar? Jimmy Moshi is a self-admitted liar. Jimmy Moshi acknowledges that he has lied. The
question will be how many lies does Jimmy Moshi get to tell? Mr. Moshi, this conversation was on. The defense needed
to come back with something strong and they had an arsenal of forensic evidence that flew in the face of Moshi's
testimony. They told the jury that there were three killers in the house that night.
Experts analyzed the patterns of blood on the wall and found drops everywhere except this area where there was no
blood, indicating another killer may have stood there during the attack. They also said a pillow was moved during the
bludgeoning. So we have killer number one moving the pillow. We have killer number two bludgeoning Dr. Rafé with the
bat. And then we have killer number three who has to remain in the exact same place throughout the entire
duration of the attack on Dr. Rafé. And there was even more tangible evidence, a single hair on Tariq Rafé's
bed. According to the police officers there, this was an important hair because this hair, according to the
Belleview Police Department, would tell them who committed this crime. Did it match Aif? No. Sebastian? No. Sultana?
No. Bosma? No. Tariq? No. We don't know whether that hair originated from someone who sat in the same seat uh that
Sebastian Burns sat in at the movie theater or whether it was picked up by Dr. Rafé at his workplace or how it got
on that bed or if it was a hair from the killer or if it was a hair from the killer.
Prosecutors also added DNA evidence needs to fit a pattern and appear in more than one place at a crime scene.
That DNA profile appeared nowhere else in that house. There was absolutely no other pattern of trace evidence that
could even re be remotely suggested to be related to that hair. That was an isolated hair.
So, with the forensic evidence inconclusive, the case comes down to whom the jury
would believe. You're saying a testimony of one of my best friends. Don't listen to that. My
own words on the video tape. Don't listen to that. Just take my word for it. We didn't do it.
Defense call Sebastian Burns. All right for the jury. More than 100 witnesses would take the stand in the
state versus Burns and Rafé. Could you kill again? Circumstances are right. Finally, Canada's most secret undercover
operation would be exposed before the jury. And so would the question that had lingered for so many years.
Why would you confess to a murder you didn't do? [Music] At that point, it seemed like the only
safe choice. It seemed like the best choice. Why on earth would anyone confess to a
murder they didn't do unless they were petrified? [Music] That they were actually going to be
killed themselves or people they loved were going to come to some type of harm. The defense set out to prove that the
scales were tipped from the beginning. Professional liars. 1975 I was uh first trained in undercover
work against teenage boys. Have you worked as the primary undercover operator before? Yes. I am frightened by
the fact that this kind of undercover operation can be used ostensively to search for the truth when it is built in
whole on lies and manipulation and threats. Mr. Burns, come on forward. Sebastian would have to convince the
jury to believe him now and not to believe what he said on those tapes. that I was in way over my head and I did
not want to be involved with these guys. I was upset with myself for having agreed to drive the car. Sebastian began
his side of the story with the first assignment from the crime box, transporting that stolen car. What was
your reaction when you heard that they wanted you to drive the stolen car? Well, pretty quickly I felt that I'd
been tricked. Sebastian, why didn't you just look at him and say, "I am out of here. Walk away." No, but there is no
walking away. You want to know what I [ __ ] uh did my time for? I told the guy when it came time for court. The
person that could finger me, they're not around anymore. Sebastian says he couldn't walk away from criminals whose
power seemed to be so farreaching. I believe that if I'd cross them or if they weren't happy with me or if they
thought I was going to betray them that they would have me killed. I just assume
that you know you with your connections that if I were to you around, okay, I would just assume that I would wake up
one day with a bullet in my head. On the stand, Song Richardson pressed Sergeant
Hlett about his scare tactics. Sebastian could easily, very easily have believed
that you and your organization would hurt people if they crossed you, right? Uh, he he could have believed it. Yes.
And that you would kill people if they ever crossed you, right? Well, I've never said that.
It goes to Sebastian Burn's imagination. Let him sit back when he goes home at night and imagine whatever he chooses
to. Is there any time in which your character directly threatens Sebastian Burns? No, never. The idea was not to
frighten Sebastian, but to make him comfortable talking about murder to other murderers.
I know you did that. That's why you're here. Could Sebastian Burns have walked away from his relationship with you at
any time he chose to do so? Without a doubt, he didn't have to return our calls. Hey, it's Sebastian leaving.
Message number three. Sebastian stayed, the defense argued, because he believed the Belleview police were fabricating
evidence against him. I'm going to show you something. You never saw this from me. That phony memo detailing the
evidence that the cops had against the boys. Here, just read this piece of The undercover operators only offered to
destroy the evidence if Sebastian confessed. You don't say to Sebastian, "Look, Sebastian, if you didn't do it,
just say so. We'll still deal with that evidence for you. We'll deal with it so you won't get convicted, but if you
didn't do it, just just say so. We'll still help." You never said that, right? No, I didn't say that because up until
this time, Sebastian Burns had never denied the involvement in the murders to me.
[Music] Going into the meeting on July 18th, what was your plan? My plan was to claim
to be the murderer that they insisted that they believe that I was. And to be convincing, Sebastian says he studied
newspaper accounts, so he'd know details of the murders. Which go first? Um, the mother
and dad and sister. As the cameras rolled, Sebastian confirmed the police theory that the
weapon was a baseball bat. could use a metal or wouldn't that um metal and the eerie notion that the killer had
showered before leaving clean up blood and that kind of stuff and that wasn't the only reason why
detectives found no blood on the boys you uh it's on Facebook have to shower no blood on you do it naked
[Music] Sebastian pointed out how he and a Tif would profit from the crime. Whatever
money we get, it's like we would invest it in our film. I guess he gave up the most soughtafter clue,
the loophole in the alibi. You uh do the dirty deed. Uh, during the movie and I'm going to get you out of
the trouble you're in. [Music] Huh? I'm flattered by your attention. Aif explained that while Sebastian
killed his family, he staged a breakin. Breaned out of DPR. You told Hlet, am I correct, that you committed these
murders of the Rafé, the Rafé family during the movie? Am I right? Correct. That the VCR was taken to also uh
contribute to the simulation of a breaking and entering. That's right. You had the alibi of the movie. The
prosecution had another bombshell ready to drop on the defense. It wasn't the first time Sebastian used
a movie as an alibi. You got into a a a a car collision, didn't you? Yes. Uh you
were driving your family car at the time. That's correct. Yes. I mean, you hit a pole in a parking lot. Did you own
up to it at the time? No, I did not. When he was 16, Sebastian staged an elaborate cover up to conceal the fact
that he had wrecked the family car. Mr. Burns, the reality is uh what you said about doing was very similar to what you
told Hlett you did in this case. Isn't that correct? I told Hlett that we committed a murder, which we didn't do.
Well, Mr. Burns, let me stop you there for a moment. Roger David Heheiser drew a haunting parallel
between the accident scene and the murder scene. Back in high school, Sebastian went to great lengths to make
it seem like someone else did the damage while he was at the movies. But the insurance company caught him in
the cover up. And in March of 1992, albeit with this stupid little car crash, what you decided to do was to
pick up the pieces of evidence that were at the scene of this collision. Am I right? Correct. You put those back in
your car. Am I correct? Correct. You took them to an entirely different location in North Vancouver. Am I right?
Correct. And uh you staged a scene in a parking lot. Am I right? Basically, you manipulated the evidence to appear as
though it was something that it wasn't. Am I right? Yes. And the reason you did that, sir, was so that you could say,
that this accident occurred while you were at the movies. Am I right? Correct. Sir, you weren't at the
movies when that accident occurred, were you? No. The difference is that the first one is a car accident and the
second one is a homicide. That's correct, Mr. Burns. That is a difference. And the difference is also
that in the first case, I was responsible for the car accident. And in the second case, I had nothing to do
with this homicide. David Heiser wasn't about to let that statement go in front of the jury. He had more of that damning
tape. Can I tell you something? I I you know I felt like you know I was capable and
like you killed a person and on July 18th of 1995 after you uh told him that you had in fact killed the Rafé family
you told him that you did it because you felt capable of killing. Right. Correct. Yes. Did you see it happen?
Yeah. All three? No, only one. Which one? My mom. The demeanor with which they deliver this this message of what they
accomplished that that night in Belleview is chilling. Didn't even fight. Um. Uh. Yeah.
Well, that's a story that hasn't really been told because I think I know that you can hear a teeth giggling in the
background and and kind of going, "Oh god, oh god." That basically the father who was
nothing and curious episode was um the sister who basically um yeah was standing up and walking around
or whatever. [Music] network. Your behavior on that tape when there's some laughing, did you think that the
murder of the Rafé family was some sort of a comedy? No, absolutely not. But we were lying and I was not thinking about
the murder of the Rafé family when I was talking. To a certain extent, I had essentially
put the real events out of my mind entirely so that I was really only thinking of the story that I was selling
to Mr. Hlett. That's not part of a story that two scared individuals come up with because
they think it's what two mafia characters want to hear. That's the truth. That's the truth coming from the mind of
a Tif for Fay and Sebastian Burns. [Music] It's a challenge to sum it all up in a
couple of hours. 6 months of testimony comes down to one final argument. There is no gray area. There is nothing in
between. Either you must believe what Sebastian Burn says and every single thing he says or you must convict him.
James Conat will speak for the state. You like your odds very much. Are you ready? Absolutely. Jeff Robinson knows
this is his last chance in front of the jury and he will have to counter with everything he has. How many times does
the evidence have to tell us it's not Sebastian and it's not a teeth before we listen?
Please listen. He points to the bloody scene in Tariq's bedroom and evidence of three killers.
Three people went into Dr. Rafé's room and there are three unknown DNA profiles. Robinson reminds them that
there is no forensic evidence linking the boys to the crime. And the question that you're required to ask yourselves
is what has the state shown me to make me believe that he is guilty without having one reason to doubt it? Mr.
Conad, the floor is yours. Your honor, thank you. There can be no doubt in your mind that these two are the killers. The
prosecution insists it is Sebastian's own words that leave no room for doubt. How did you three people at once?
Uh and ultimately the words that came out of Sebastian Burns's mouth led to his demise. His hubris led to his demise.
[Music] What would be most compelling to the 12 jurors? Would it be the neighbors who
thought they heard the murders that night when the boys were spotted at the movie theater?
Or would they be haunted by Jimmy Moshi's words damning his two former best friends? Would the jury believe
that Sebastian was scared of those undercover operators? Or is this the picture of a young man who thinks he's
about to get away with murder? For the last time, the jury is asked to envision the last moments in the Rafé
family home. This is the horror that they left behind, ladies and gentlemen. This is what we must not lose sight of.
Finally, it is up to the jury to make its decision. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you're retired to deliberate
your verdict. In the script for The Great Despisers, two boys are wrongfully convicted and executed.
After 4 days of deliberations, 10 years after the murders, the final act in the real life plotline. All rides for the
jury. We the jury find the defendant Glenn Sebastian Burns guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as
charged in count one. Verdict form 1 F. We the jury find the defendant uh Tif Ahmed Rafé guilty of the crime of murder
in the first degree as charged in count three. I did not believe that they didn't have
reasonable doubt. I just didn't believe it. I'm afraid of him. I think he's very
scary. And I looked at him a few times and he was glaring at me personally. And anybody that commit a crime like that is
a frightening person. I was looking at individual jurors just to see if they I don't know. I guess I was looking for
some kind of an answer. I wonder how they sleep at night. I wonder how they came to that decision.
One way the other with the verdict that was given, can you sleep well at night now? Yes.
Yes. No second thoughts? No, no way. Not with anyone. Not a doubt. I personally myself to the very day of the end of the
trial wanted them to be innocent. And in the end, I was totally overcome by the evidence obviously, but I think all of
us were wishing that some suspect would be guilty so that we could not convict these two young men.
[Music] On October 22nd, 2004, 5 months after the verdict, good morning, Sebastian and Aif were back in court.
Sebastian, anything to say before they push you away? This time to hear their sentence from the judge. Send Mr. Burns
a very clear message that he has been found guilty. Send him to prison for the rest of his natural life times three.
Three consecutive life sentences. Mr. Burns. Thank you, your honor. Sebastian had his
own message for the court. With all your due respect to the jurors, the verdict is wrong. In the audience
were jurors who had convicted him and the undercover operators who had sealed his fate. I certainly feel sorry for the
victims. I feel sorry for their surviving son. This was his only expression of sympathy. And before I
continue, I just encourage you to consider in a speech that went on and that's what for almost 2 hours, our jury
was made to have I want to insist today on the truth that we are innocent. Aif never took the
stand during the trial. And I loved my parents. I rever memory to this day. He used this moment to admit he was
ashamed. Your honor, the impersonation that I gave on those videotapes. Yes, there's no relation is alien to
everything that I've ever felt or thought. I truly admired my father. I was probably closer to my mother than
to any other person that I ever will be. in the memory of her wit and her charm and her keen human sympathy.
[Music] They're dear to me to this day. Mr. Ruffet, thank you. Unlike your colleague, I find you genuinely
remorseful, Mr. Ruff. I think the tragedy for you and ultimately your family was a meeting, a fateful meeting at a
probably a school cafeteria or a school ground. I don't know where it occurred with Mr. Burns. Judge Martell saved his
harshest words for Sebastian Burns. Mr. Burns, you're not immoral. You're amoral. You are an arrogant, convicted
killer. You are not a kid, as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you
will be held responsible as an adult for your premeditated, naked, vicious massacre of this family.
It is therefore the conclusion of this court that you should be sentenced on count one to life without possibility of
parole, count two to life without possibility of parole, and on count three to life without possibility of
parole. those three sentences to run consecutively. Back up here. It's taken them a decade,
but prosecutors will send the Rafa's only son and his best friend to prison for life.
We've been saying all along they thought they planned the perfect murder. Justice
has been done for the three victims and our community has held the two individuals responsible for this
accountable for their conduct. There is a great deal of satisfaction in being part of that. A great deal of
satisfaction. [Music] [Music] Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains
references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care. Welcome to Killer Conversation, a
podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 hours producer.
This is part two of my conversation with Peter Vans about his interviews with two
convicted killers, Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé. Burns and Rafé were just teenagers when they murdered Rafé's
family. And they might never have been caught were it not for a Canadian sting known as the Mr. Big operation.
So Peter, Mr. Big, what is that? So, this was a unit within the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, an undercover
unit that would pose as a organized crime family. And they had the ability when they had a target to get that
person entwined in their illegal business, what the what the target thought would be illegal. One of the
undercover officers told me, "Peter, we have never had a target who we did not successfully pull into our organized
crime family." And he said, "I'm talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, they were brilliant at this." And so the there was
the house was bugged and an undercover officer hears that Sebastian is going to get his haircut at a salon in downtown.
um Vancouver and they decide this is our moment to make an approach to him. They'd also learned that Sebastian and
Aif had been working on a screenplay called The Great Despisers. And it's a story about two young men wrongfully
accused of murdering a family. Wow. Where did they get that idea, Judy? Where do you where do you think they got
that? And so when Sebastian came out of the the barber shop, there was a member of the Mr. Big undercover team waiting
who approaches him and says, "Hey, how's it going? You know, I let I I left my keys in my car here. You know, can you
do me a favor? Drive me down to the local hotel. I got an extra set of keys down there." And um and so the adventure
with the Mr. Big Team began, right? They uh they went to a bar and they started talking and forming a relationship and
uh and they because they knew about the screenplay, they sort of used that to to
reel him in, right? Like at some point he said, "I know somebody who I think can fund your movie, who can give you
money to make your film. Let's go meet him." And that very same night they went to go meet with Mr. Big, who they called
Al. Right. Yes. I've met Al. I've uh interviewed Al in Shadow. Um the all the guys on this undercover team were among
the most talented I have ever seen. They looked like character actors out of a Hollywood movie. And uh not long after
they they meet this mobster Al, Mr. Big, he asked Sebastian to drive a very expensive stolen car from Whistler
Mountain outside of Vancouver back to the city. And Sebastian agreed. And after the delivery, Sebastian was paid
$200. That made him anger angry because he wanted a lot more money than that. But instead of running away from what he
thought was a criminal enterprise, Sebastian told them he wanted more money, right? This is what remember I
told you these guys said, "We always get somebody. They once they see our world,
we were we're able to hook somebody. They know their audience, right?" So he and Jimmy Moshi, we remember his
roommate. They agreed to start laundering money for this Mr. Big enterprise and they were paid $2,000 for
that. Oh, these are guys that can't get jobs. They're suddenly raking in the dough. They're going, they're having
excitement. They're living on the edge, right? And Sebastian ends up working for
this criminal enterprise for nearly 4 months. I think we should just clarify that Jimmy Moshi was a high school
friend who they were living with at the time of the sting operation. So eventually Sebastian was asked if he was
willing to ready for this commit murder. The only reason why I'm talking like that, if you follow the whole
conversation, you'll see he's asking me a lot of questions about how does my conscience handle crime. And this is
after he's already confessed to me that he's a murderer himself and after he's also told me that he's worried that I'm
a threat to his organization. He's worried that I'm reluctant to work for them. And it was clear that he was
worried that I was going to tell them to the police. and the only conceivable purpose. I told him at this point that
that wouldn't bother my conscience, but I wouldn't want to do it myself. And he continued to ask me questions. You're
saying I'd do it, but I wouldn't do it. You're saying, "Yeah, I'd kill somebody,
but you know, I guess I wouldn't kill somebody." Is that what you're saying we should take from that exchange?
Well, what you should take from that exchange is that I was trying to satisfy him that I wasn't going to tell the
police what he just confessed to me. And I also told him, however, that I didn't
want to do it. I mean, the sum. Are we getting a glimpse here into the real Sebastian Burns? A man who had murdered
a family and is now telling one of these undercover guys, you're willing to do it
again. No, that's completely not true. And if you read the rest of that excerpt, Peter, I think that it will be
more clear that what I'm telling him there is that I do not want to do that. So, is it true? Did he try to walk away?
Did he ever say no to anything? No, he stays. Uh he says because he was afraid of what they would do to him if he
didn't. But we already know that he is delighted. They've heard on these u these bugging devices he's delighted by
the money that's coming in. So they they tell the boys that um that there's that
they've heard that there's evidence against them in the case in Washington, right? They have a memo that they show
them that says that police found hairs and DNA and blood evidence that's going to that's going to turn the whole case
around. And they tell the boys that um that they can help get rid of that evidence.
Yeah, this is really convincing stuff. Uh this is per very persuasive to him that oh my god, they've got this they've
got this evidence and Mr. big with all his connections can destroy that evidence. But there but Sebastian has to
agree to do something. What is it, Judy? He has to confess to the murders. That's
right. And this is very clever. And this is where, you know, in the United States
at that time, if there was an undercover operation like this, you tell me, would
this be admissible? No, absolutely not. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It would not be admissible. And um and Sebastian
is, you know, he's heading down that drain. It's swirling and he's he's he's losing um control because now they're
going to have to tell Mr. Big exactly what happened to Mr. Big's satisfaction at AF's family's home. And eventually
Sebastian and Tif are sitting in a room with Mr. Big. They're unaware that there's a hidden video camera and it's
recording every second of their conversation, picture and sound. [Music] So, this is a chief's first meeting with
Mr. Big and and his people. Um, what did they say? What did they tell them about
about the murders? There's no doubt about it. Sebastian admits to doing the murders and he details how he did it.
Beginning with the mother, then the father, then the daughter, all beaten with a bat. Yeah. The way he confesses
on that uh undercover tape is is so matterof fact and and at times he even laughs about it. You you talk to him
about that. Your behavior on that tape when there's some laughing, did you think that the murder of the Rafé family
was some sort of a comedy? No, absolutely not. But we were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the
Rafé family when I was talking. I was trying to pass off a story. And for whatever reason, I guess the way that
the whole ordeal affected me was to get nervous and to kind of giggle a bit. And
I mean, in one sense, I was trying to act casual. And in another way, I was, I guess, just genuinely giggling
nervously. Uh, you laugh when you say Bosman needed a little extra bat work. That's sick, isn't it? Well, yes. Uh, I
don't want to split hairs, but the quote is actually a little more effort. Uh, I
mean, not that it's much better, and I guess that is just splitting hairs, but at the same time, it's a little bit
different. Uh, it's not that's not any better. Effort is still outrageous. You laugh when you're talking about killing
Bosma. Yeah. Well, we were lying. And at that point, I felt very awkward because
I didn't know what to say about it to Al because we didn't do it. And I was making up a story. And I was chuckling
awkwardly because I didn't know what to say. And I was, we had already heard some of the details in the newspaper
about what supposedly happened there. And I was just in a really awkward position. And I was just kind of
chuckling nervously. Sebastian, aren't we looking at you on this videotape? The real
Sebastian Burns, the person who planned this murder, killed these people, and has no conscience to the point where you
can laugh about it. No, that's completely wrong. No, you are never seeing the real me on any of these
tapes, in my opinion. In my opinion, what an odd thing to say. Sebastian claims he was forced to
confess that he was afraid of what the mob boss might do to him if he didn't. So Aif is there that day and he also
confessed. Um they they needed both boys there, right? Yeah. But Aif claims that he also felt
trapped in that moment and had had no no choice that you know if they confessed the mob boss was going to protect him,
you know, and destroy that evidence down in Belleview. Uh, and if they didn't, who knows what would have happened to
them. I certainly had no way of dealing with the situation other than the one that the that that was offered by the
undercover operatives where they whereby somehow they would essentially magically
take care of all our problems. And I certainly I I can say that I almost enjoyed the irony of making a false
confession in order to obtain a true exoneration. I thought that was kind of neat.
Neat. It was neat making up a story about his murdered family. What can I say? And uh like Sebastian, he laughed
when he talked about the murder of his sister Bosma. You have declined to discuss the details of these murders
during the course of this interview. What you saw inside your own house, right? And yet in front of two mobsters,
you laugh about it and you give complete detail about what happened inside that house. I don't get it. It's easier to
talk about a fiction than it is to about the truth. I think in that way, um, I didn't have any emotional feelings about
the a fake story that I was telling. He doesn't ever have any emotional feelings. Uh, or it doesn't appear that
he's emotional. Anyway, to a lot of people, what the Canadian officers did feels like entrament and coerced
confessions. In fact, Sebastian's sister made a documentary about the Mr. big operation that got Innocence
International to take on Aif and Sebastian's case. But all of the appeals were denied
at the time when I was covering this and the way it was explained in court is that this was an undercover operation
that was completely legal in Canada at that time. Eventually became illegal, but at that time it was legal. And here
in the US, there was an exception called the silver platter doctrine, which said
that if an operation was legal in the country where it was conducted, it was then admissible here in the United
States. And defense attorneys tried to get the video thrown out, but the judge in Sebastian's trial allowed jurors to
watch it. And on it, the boys confess. Do you think they would have been convicted without those tapes?
I am not sure that they would have been convicted with what the neighbors had heard of these killings going on at a
time when the boys were seen in a movie theater. Um I think there is hung jury was a real
possibility or or an acquitt was a real possibility. This this was this was the moment, right? Or there may never have
been a trial, right? Those of you who've been listening to all this, what do you
think? Right. If that tape had not been played, um, would these boys have been convicted? I think there's a excellent
chance that they would not have been. So, a little over a year after the murders, they tell these Canadian
officers that they committed the murders, but it took nearly six years to extradite them. Why? Well, at the heart
of this was the death penalty. There is no death penalty for murder in Canada. And the Canadian government said they're
not going to extradite the boys until uh the judge in this case agreed to take and prosecutors agreed to take the death
penalty off the table, which eventually happened. Right. Both boys were represented by public defenders and
there's kind of a crazy story about how they were pulled off the case. Is it true that Sebastian had sex with one of
his attorneys? Yeah. So, I'll I'll leave her name out of it. She's been through so much. But he had
this dynamic um woman attorney that um was considered one of the best in the public defender's
office. She had gone uh to Japan to see Jimmy Mioshi. Remember he was Sebastian and Aif's roommate in Vancouver, British
Columbia. And uh Jimmy had been accused of conspiring in the murders. And and he
made a deal with the state to testify against his friends. And then he moved to Japan. Well, Sebastian's lawyer flew
to Japan to meet with him. And she came back. She was incredibly excited because
she claimed that Jimmy told her that he felt leaned on to make the deal. and she
was excited that that if she could present this in court, it would completely undermine him as a as a
witness. And I was told by the prosecutor in the case uh who talked to the guards who who watched some of this
unfold, she ran into his uh meeting into the meeting room. Um she gives him this
big hug. She tells him the news. They hug again. And then the hug immediately progressed into um removal of clothing.
um a guard who was watching all of this called two other guards over and cuz they were on a slightly second floor
that they could look down and see this window on the door. This small window could see inside and they said, "Do you
see what I see?" Okay. Do you see what I see? Yeah, we all know what that is. Okay. Well, then let's go break this up.
And it's a felony to have sex with an inmate in in jail like that. and uh she uh had her law license suspended. She
was taken off the case and she had a partner who was who was uh incredibly bright and talented and the two of them
were were taken off cuz they were a team. So when these two defense attorneys come instead of having years
of research behind them, they had a few months to get prepared for this and uh that was devastating to Sebastian and
Aatif's case. So, speaking of Jimmy Moshi, he had a lot to say in his deposition. Um, he
said that a thief told him that he had wanted to kill his family and that he was present when Sebastian killed his
mother. Yeah. He said he'd been present when Sebastian had discussed their plans
to murder the family. And he specifically said he recalled them saying that they plan to stay at the
Rafé home for a few days before the murder so their DNA and hair would be explainable when it was discovered uh
during forensic examination. Part of the plan, part of the master plan. So there
was a bit of physical evidence that showed that there might have been someone else involved in the murder, at
least of Tariq. What was that? Well, there was a hair, just a single hair, found on the body of Tariq Rafé that
didn't belong to anyone in the family or Sebastian. Now, of course, Tariq worked
in the outside world, and being at work, if somebody had given him a hug or anything else, you could see
transference there. Uh, but there was also, and this was really strange, there was blood in the garage that was
discovered that didn't belong to anyone in the family or to Sebastian. M and also then don't forget the two neighbors
who testified that they heard a commotion at the house at a time when the boys were in that movie theater.
Right. Right. So Sebastian took the witness stand, which doesn't surprise me at all. What about you? It doesn't
surprise me. I'll use that phrase, brilliantly stupid. Uh his attorney said, "Don't do this. We have a chance."
there's um some reasonable doubt in here and um do not do this. And Sebastian insisted if he was anything like he was
in your interview, I can only imagine that the jury just hated him. Yeah, it's it he had that same attitude, right? He
was very put out while answering questions. Um, and uh that that attitude is of I'm smarter than you. Uh, and I'm
the one you should believe. So, at at his sentencing, Sebastian never showed any remorse, told the
jurors they were wrong, and went on for nearly 2 hours. What did he say? Yeah, I
was there. Um, this was a theater in the round, uh, oneman performance. He talked
to the judge directly, but also then turned back to talk to the people in the room, all of us that were there. Um, he
insisted he was innocent, repeated himself over and over about why the jury was wrong. He threw his defense team
under the bus, called them ineffective. He claimed he didn't know he would testify until the morning of and was
unprepared. That's not true. Defense attorney had had told me that they had urged him not to do this. He forced them
to put him on the stand. He insisted that he had not had his day in court and asked that if he could have a new trial
and represent himself. The judge told him to wrap it up many times. This is what the judge said when he
sentenced Sebastian to three consecutive life sentences. Mr. Burns, you are not immoral. You are amoral. You are an
arrogant convicted killer. You are not a kid as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held
responsible as an adult for your premeditated naked vicious massacre of this family. Of all the mic drops I've
ever heard delivered from the bench, that was epic. If I may say, a touch of genius from the judge. Such as Zatif
might say, such irony for the two geniuses whose brilliance and arrogance had turned on them and led to their
demise. Yes. Yes. On the other hand, Aif seemed to get choked up at his sentencing. He didn't admit to his
crime, but he showed remorse for his behavior for the first time. And um I had interviewed him and things. Uh I saw
some humanity there. Um the big question always in a situation like that is is he sad for what he did or is he sad
that he got caught? Right. Exactly. And was it genuine or was he just terrified?
[Music] So they both got three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of
parole. And of course they vowed to fight their wrongful conviction, but they're never getting out. Right.
Well, it's doubtful now. Uh Sebastian has exhausted all of his appeals. Uh T has one more to go, but I I think it is
very it is very doubtful that uh uh that they will ever see life outside of a prison cell. Here's an exchange I had
with Patif. How would you describe what has happened to you? Um, I don't know. I guess we'd have to use
words like disaster and calamity and other things. Um, it's very easy to fall into the rut of self-pity and so I try
not to think on it too much. Um, luckily uh it's very easy to uh I guess think of other things and fall
into a sort of uh unmindfulness of your present situation. And here is Sebastian.
Do you still see the images of of their bodies when you think about the Rafé house? When you think about that night,
can you still see it in your mind's eye? Is it something you live with? That memory?
Truly, I don't know. It was something that was very much with me for I know the the first year after it
happened. Um especially with the first few weeks. Um it's been 10 years now and so and
a lot of ways I'm over it. Why do you think they never turned on each other? I still believe that they believe and
this is what has sustained them all these years is that one day they will outsmart the system on appeal. They're
down to their last one for a could ever have turned on Sebastian his his idol and his mentor. Right. So today
they're both 49 years old. They're still in custody in the Monroe Correctional Complex. Aif was married in in 2017, but
is now divorced. Not surprisingly, he seems to have been or is a model prisoner studying and teaching and
writing papers and articles. Um, all we know about Sebastian is that his parents
visit him once a month and according to them, he spent 10 years in solitary confinement.
Well, Peter, we could go on forever, but we won't. Yeah, somebody wrote a book about it. Yes, you did. My relatives
bought. Perfectly executed is the book. I wrote it with Janet Jackson, one of the producers. All right. Thank you
again. Yeah. And thanks for reliving this with me. It is It is one of the most extraordinary cases of my career
and one I'll carry with me forever. I can see why. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted
and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound
design, fact-checking, and additional production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus.

What happened when Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay left the U.S. for Canada and became entangled in an elaborate “Mr. Big” sting operation? "48 Hours" correspondent Peter Van Sant explains how undercover confessions led to the eventual murder convictions for Burns and Rafay.

What’s it like to sit across from a killer and ask the questions no one else can? "48 Hours" producer Judy Rybak sits down with correspondents Erin Moriarty and Peter Van Sant for revealing conversations about how the criminal mind works.

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé were convicted of murdering Rafé's family, with their confessions obtained through a controversial undercover operation.

Key points

The Infamous Graduates. Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé became notorious for a brutal crime just after high school.
Confessions Caught on Tape. Undercover police recorded Sebastian and Aif boasting about their crime, raising questions of guilt.
A Damning Testimony. Jimmy Moshi, a friend, testifies against Sebastian and Aif, revealing chilling details.
Sebastian's Fear of Retribution. Sebastian expresses his fear of being killed if he crosses the criminals he's involved with.
The Verdict. After 10 years, the jury finds Sebastian and Aif guilty of murder in the first degree.
The Undercover Operation. The Mr. Big operation reveals how Sebastian and Aif were drawn into a criminal world.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I want to try to kill someone one day to see how it would feel.

A chilling statement from Sebastian about his dark curiosity.

10:47WatchJul 2, 2025

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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