"Fifteen: Hurt People" | "48 Hours" Podcast (Episode 6) | Forensic Files

Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence
and suicide. Please listen with care. Well, it was late at night and I was finishing up some work at my computer
and I said, "Well, how how bad could this be?" You know, not never a good thing to say to yourself.
Four years after Daniel Marsh had been sent to prison for murdering her mother, Claudia Mppen, Victoria Herd was sitting
in her office preparing to watch a YouTube video. >> I came to realize that there are no such
things as evil people in this world, only damaged people. >> There on the screen suddenly was Daniel
Marsh. It was 2018 and Daniel was now 20 years old. >> I did horrible things to people who
never deserve to be hurt. >> In the video, Daniel was standing on a stage delivering a TEDex talk organized
by his correctional facility. His short hair was slick back and he wore a blue prison shirt and sweatpants.
>> And I'm watching it like a deer in the headlights. You know, I can't pull my eyes away.
>> It's a mature, self- assured Daniel Marsh telling his story. In all his previous interviews with law enforcement
and psychiatrists, Daniel had denied being sexually abused. But that story had now changed.
In his TED X talk, he claimed he had been sexually abused as a child, although he never named the culprit or
provided any details about the alleged abuse. >> Growing up, I felt like there wasn't a
soul in the world that I could tell. >> He also admitted that he hurt people, but he never apologized for murdering
Chip and Claudia. >> I just went into a rage immediately. I went into a crying rage.
>> What bothered you? Tell me. >> It was his arrogance. It was his um uh minimizing
not talking about what he did. Uh you know, and not showing any kind of remorse.
No remorse. But Daniel said he was changing. Finally, learning how to connect with others and let go of hate.
We must always always embrace our humanity. [Applause] The audience was celebrating him as he
spoke. Good job on your recovery. And you could feel that coming from his audience.
>> Victoria says she couldn't quite believe her eyes. The audience rose to its feet
and applauded. This was not a man, she believed, who had changed. I felt like no more. No more from you.
We did a loving thing by putting you behind bars. This is a loving thing to our family and our community that's
suffering. And then you're going to keep coming. >> Yeah. >> No. [Music] Chip and Claudia's family wanted to move
forward and heal, so they pushed to get the video removed from the internet, and
it was. But that video wasn't the last they'd see of Daniel Marsh. New laws in California intended to
rehabilitate young offenders, were about to put Daniel's case in the spotlight again.
This was a massive undertaking to essentially reopen the case. >> It had been 5 years since Daniel Marsh
had killed two people. Was it possible that in that time he had changed? That certainly was his contention.
>> I I'm not who I used to be. >> And if so, could he walk free? >> The fear was overwhelming.
[Music] I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron Morardi and this is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders
episode 6 hurt people [Music] in his TEDex talk in March 2018 18, Daniel Marsh talked about why he
believed he had changed for the better. And there was a reason for that public appeal. It was because of a new state
law that might give Daniel a chance at freedom. >> One of the most controversial
propositions on California's ballot would impact the state prison system and some say public safety.
A ballot proposal called Prop 57 reform the state juvenile criminal justice system. It would allow only judges, not
prosecutors, to decide whether certain juveniles would be tried as adults in court. And among those who had voted for
the new law were Chip and Claudia's children. Victoria explained why. Of course, I want our children to be
rehabilitated. I think that there's a lot of young criminals in the adult system that shouldn't be there. So, yes,
I want to support any kind of rehabilitation for young people. Um, >> but did you think that might include
>> I did not think that would include Daniel Marsh. But Daniel's attorneys argued despite
the violence of his crimes, he should benefit from Prop 57, and an appeals court agreed and granted
Daniel a new hearing at the Superior Court of Yolo County. Now, a juvenile court judge would go back, listen to the
evidence, and decide if Daniel Marsh should have been tried as a juvenile instead of an adult.
And this is what was at stake. If the judge ruled in Daniel's favor, he would then be tried as a juvenile. And even if
he was again convicted, the state could be forced to set him free on his 25th birthday. Okay, Madame
Clerk, let's go on the record. In the case JD18-332 in the matter of Daniel William Marsh,
the judge had to weigh several factors, including the sophistication and gravity
of the crime, prior juvenile delinquent behavior, and the probability of rehabilitation.
You know, of course, my memory of Daniel is him telling me he wants to put a pen
in my neck and crush my head with a laptop. So, um, right, I was skeptical. >> That's Dr. Matthew Sulier, who took the
witness stand for the defense. He's the psychiatrist I spoke to in the last episode, who was first asked to evaluate
Daniel Marsh in 2013. 5 years after the trial, he had received a call from Daniel's defense team asking
if he would meet with their client again. >> We were being asked for the first time
as child forensic psychiatrists, is Daniel amendable to rehabilitation? Um, and this was new quite frankly and and
why start with this guy? I mean, this guy is um extremely challenging and I said, I'll, you know, I'll give it a
shot. I' I'd like to see what he looks like 5 years later. And I went and met with him.
>> And was the same Daniel Marsh sitting in front of you when you walked in? >> No, he was different. Well, he wasn't a
boy anymore, obviously, so he was, you know, more grown up. He had more of the appearance of an adult. He was much
warmer. Immediately he remembered that he had threatened to harm me. He without me
prompting expressed remorse for it, said he was sorry. Um and then proceeded to tell me how he had grown, how he had
changed, how he had uh so-called done the work, and that he had gained a lot by being around people who had been
compassionate towards him. In his testimony, Dr. Sulier said Daniel had begun his rehabilitation early on in
juvenile hall. >> He's still not out of the woods. He's still got some definite growth and
maturation to do, but he's grown a lot emotionally. As for Daniel's past fixation on killing
others, >> the homicidal ideation, those thoughts, imagery, um, intentions to kill other
people have completely ceased. Um, per his report. >> Daniel told Sulier that he had never
felt better. >> It was his opinion that he could live violent free, that he could um be set
free at 25, and that he could live without violence. I first spoke with Dr. Sulier a few
months after his 2018 testimony at the hearing, >> but you did testify that you thought he
could be rehabilitated. >> I did and I didn't. I was struggling because of course I was struggling with
just the nature of what he did. It was horrific. It's hard to contemplate that the mind behind that crime is
changeable. He did a horrible crime. He's a psychopath. Let's throw him away. Why are we even having this silly
hearing? And I too, I grappled with it, too. He is an extreme. >> You wrote in in your report, "Mr. Marsh
is manipulative, intelligent, and capable of deceiving this evaluator and others."
>> I did. >> And if he is in fact lying to you, wouldn't that make you more concerned
about his ability to be rehabilitated? It would be if he was uh lying and being disingenuous about everything then right
that would be a pause for concern but there are some things that he can't lie about. Um there are other factors to
consider as it relates to transfer. There is the the absence of his delinquency history. There is the
absence of a court reaching out to him and trying to help him before he did this. there are things that he can't lie
about that help his cause. Um, and gave me reason to go in and try to opine that
he should go back to a juvenile jurisdiction. >> Dr. Matthew Sulier was hired by Daniel's
defense team. So when his testimony wrapped, the prosecution called its own expert on psychopathy, forensic
psychologist Matthew Logan. While Logan had never met Daniel Marsh, he did examine his records and saw that when he
had turned 18, Daniel had scored a 35.8 out of 40 on a widely used psychopathy checklist.
It was one of the highest scores Dr. Logan had ever seen. In other words, according to this
assessment, Daniel Marsh had nearly all the traits of a psychopath. Some of the traits are glib, superficial
charm, grandiose sense of selfworth, pathological lying, uh criminal versatility,
uh lack of responsibility, uh inability to feel remorse. >> Dr. Logan also highlighted a
psychopath's ability to con and manipulate. Well, they they have an uncanny ability
to to um use their charm and use use a lot of real savvy as opposed to just straight intelligence, but street smarts
in order to kind of manipulate police, uh psychologists, uh national parole board, the courts.
>> Logan told me at the time that releasing a psychopath like Daniel Marsh was dangerous.
It definitely means that um that this person is not going to be easily rehabilitated or not rehabilitated at
all by any means that is being used within the correctional system. I think this is going to be something that he's
going to be dealing with the rest of his life. >> Do you believe that Daniel Marsh could
kill again and will kill again? >> I I believe that he could kill again. And if I was being asked uh to make a
decision on the likelihood, I would say it's more likely than not that he would kill again.
>> This was the chief concern for Claudia and Chip's family members when they were
allowed to give impact statements at the hearing. Here's Chip's daughter, Mary Northup.
I was raised to believe that people deserve a second chance. But a second chance is really only
worthwhile if one acknowledges and understands the issues that caused the failure in the first place and has the
desire and ability not to do the same thing again. >> Mary acknowledged that no punishment
would ever bring back her father. But the one thing this court could do is protect all the other families
from suffering as ours has suffered at the hands of this defendant. >> As she spoke, Mary alternated her gaze
between the judge and Daniel. >> He didn't look at anyone that gave it a personal statement. I I was surprised
because if he's a really good manipulator, he at least looks and tries to be empathic. But I think he didn't
look cuz he realized he couldn't feain empathy. >> After the victim's statements, the judge
requested a brief recess, and Daniel's defense team returned with a surprising announcement.
Daniel himself was going to testify. >> Daniel Marshall witnessed stand direct exam by attorney Pelito.
>> Daniel described his time first in juvenile hall and then an adult correctional facility. He admitted to
taking drugs inside prison and that he had been hospitalized after cutting his wrist. You know, again, when I I first
came in, I I made a lot of mistakes. Um, and one of those mistakes was, you know,
experimenting a little bit with meth and then a lot with uh heroin. And I I ended
up using heroin pretty consistently for a little over a year. >> That included injecting it.
>> It did. Yeah. Eventually, it got to the point where I was I had my own rig, as
they call it, syringe. But Daniel said he stopped using drugs when he became involved with groups like
TED X inside the prison. >> Have you learned anything in any of these groups about responsibility for
your own behavior? >> I have. Yeah. Um that was mainly through errors and criminal thinking.
>> Can you tell the court a little bit about what you learned? >> Sure. Um, I guess what it comes down to
is like the main errors in criminal thinking is like the selfishness behind it and the the self-centerness behind
it. Not taking into account how your actions affect those around you and affect other people in negative ways.
You know, again, like feeling entitled, you know, feeling like it's all about you or feeling um
like you you can like the rules don't apply, I guess. Um and part of um breaking that way of thinking is
uh accepting responsibility for your mistakes and for your actions, you know, and and ex acknowledging and beginning
to, you know, like work through what the things that you have done have done to other people. I guess
>> Daniel Marsh insisted that he was a changed man, no longer the troubled child who had viciously murdered two
people. >> I mean, it's night and day, man. It's it's completely different. You know, I
no longer struggle with mental illness. I've worked through the vast majority of
my my anger and hate. And for the first time, he addressed his victim's families.
>> Nothing I ever say or do will ever be enough, but I'm I'm sorry. I'm I'm I'm sorry.
I'm I'm sorry I took them away from you. I'm sorry for all the pain that I've caused you.
I'm sorry for the pain that I'm sure I'm still causing you. I'm sorry for every horrible thing that you've gone through
because of me. I'm sorry for everything. And if I could undo it, I would. I I and I know that until
I truly process what I did, the then I can't really give you the apology that you deserve. I I
can't even bring myself to look at you. But I I really and and I know you don't think I'm being genuine, but I just
really hope that at least to some extent you're able to receive this because I'm truly sorry.
>> But for Chip's daughter, Mary, that apology didn't sound sincere. for me to be convinced that he's sorry
for what he did would be for him to talk about it and to say I did that and that was
awful. And he really even in his apology all he said was that was another me. That was a dark me. You know that's it
it it he wasn't willing to embrace that that really was him. [Music] [Applause] At the opening of the last day of the
hearing, Daniel Marsh smiled and exchanged pleasantries with his lawyers as they waited for the judge to enter
the chamber. Okay, madame clerk, let's go on the record in the matter of Daniel William
Marsh, case JD18-332. And uh what I have before me is a written court order. >> Daniel looked down as the judge read
from his order. >> The legal basis of the remand was the November 9th, 2016 passage of
Proposition 57. After going over the details of the crime in the case against Daniel, the
judge announced his decision. In conclusion, the seriousness of the offense, both in terms of its
sophistication and the gravity, along with the finding that Marsh has made little progress in rehabilitation in the
past 5 years, support the ultimate ruling of this court to transfer the case to adult criminal court.
Daniel's original sentence, a minimum of 52 years in prison would stand. As the judge announced his verdict, the
courtroom remained silent. Daniel kept his eyes locked on the floor and didn't visibly react, but Claudia and Chip's
family members did. They gathered to hug each other and cry. We did it. We did it. We did it. You did
it. >> And yet, it was still not over. Daniel's legal team continued to pursue appeals
in the wake of yet another new California state bill that went into effect in January 2019.
This one would prohibit 14 and 15y olds from ever being tried as adults, even killers.
To me, this is terrorizing. [Music] Although Victoria had voted for Prop 57, she actively protested against this
newest state law known as Senate Bill 1391 with Daniel Marsh on her mind. I realize that this man is not the
typical juvenile offender. However, the passage of this bill will make all juvenile offenders one and the same.
There will be no discernment and no responsibility. If 1391 is passed, the man who murdered
my parents and many others like him will be released into society at age 25. In response to Senate Bill 1391,
Daniel's defense team appealed his 52-year prison sentence, arguing that this latest new law should be
retroactively applied to his case. It raised the possibility that once again Daniel could be eligible for an early
release. He was not giving up on getting out. >> The the overwhelming amount of fear that
I had of him knowing first of all knowing us. >> That's Sarah Rice, Claudia Mppin's
granddaughter. >> He knows our names. Of course he does. He's seen us in court. And then it was the capacity that he
could get back on the streets and do what he's done again. >> Yes, >> that fear is overwhelming.
And I was thinking about every little kid and every woman that was running on the streets or a family that was walking
in a park or an individual that was sleeping in their home. Daniel's latest appeal made its way to
the California Supreme Court in 2021. but was sent back to a lower court the next year. The state supreme court
ultimately rejected the appeal in 2023. So, at least for now, Daniel Marsh remains in prison. According to the
correctional facility where he is currently being housed, Daniel will be eligible for parole in December 2036.
He'll be 39 years old, but that's subject to change. Even behind bars, Daniel Marsh has left a deep mark on
many of those involved in his case. >> My experiences, if you work in crime, uh there's always going to be one or two
cases that are just not going to go away. They're going to haunt you in the sense of uh I always remember him. He's
indelible to me. When I spoke with Dr. Matthew Sulier again in 2025, he said his thinking about Daniel Marsh
had evolved since our first conversation. Yeah, I have had experiences in my life
that um have also made me much more attuned to the experience of of being a victim and um it it has changed me. has
changed my process and and meeting over 100 kids that have killed people now. Um
I have a totally different I I think I would approach Daniel very differently than I did in 2018. He should be um the
kid that that deserves different consequences um different considerations. He will
always be a psychopath and that there would be grave danger to to letting him out.
As for Chip and Claudia's family, they still grieve deeply. It's impossible to overstate the trauma
caused not only by Daniel Marsh's actions, but by the investigation that followed. If you remember, in the early
days after the murders, one of Chip Norup's grandsons, Tony, was mistakenly identified as the possible perpetrator.
That created tremendous stress and financial problems for him and his family. In October 2016,
at age 31, Tony died by suicide. His family, including his father, Robert, and brother Oliver, were left to grieve yet
another terrible loss. This case has left a mark on me, too. With all the killers I've met, even
spoken to, I've never encountered anyone so unknowable as Daniel Marsh. Daniel's crimes still have ripple
effects to this day. Victoria Herd and Sarah Rice now work with other families who have been harmed by violent crime
and continued to advocate changes to state law. So people like Daniel Marsh never walk free and they continue to
share memories of Chip and Claudia because you know at the end of the day for me I have a responsibility and my
responsibility is to show the world who my grandmother was >> and the life that she lived not the life
that she died by. >> Not the way that she died. Yeah. Chip and Claudia's family remember them
for everything they created. The years of joy, laughter, and music. This is Victoria.
I never remember a day that I didn't speak with her or love her or ask her for direction or giggle with her. Um,
she was my world. >> Mary Northup also remembers walking nearly every day with her father Chip,
catching up on their lives. He had this voice too sometimes, you know, Mary, you know, you could hear it
and and it made me feel good to know it was there. >> You can hear Claudia and Chip enjoy the
festivities of Claudia's 75th birthday party. It was held just a year before the two were killed. They laughed and
they sang with friends. >> Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. >> The memory of Claudia and Chip lives on
through their family while the man who took their lives and fantasize about taking others
sits behind bars for now. He will never understand how wonderful they were and are.
[Music] [Music] This is 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders. This series was reported by me,
Aaron Morardi. Alan Pang is our producer. Mora Walls is our story editor and Jamie Benson is the senior producer.
Megan Marcus is the vice president of podcast editorial for CBS. Special thanks to 48 hours executive producer
Judy Tyiggard along with 48 hours producers Judy Ryback, Stephanie Slifer, and Greg Fiser from Goat Rodeo. This
podcast was written and produced by Cara Schillin, Max Johnston, Jay Venibals, Isabelle Kirby McGawan, Megan Nadulski,
and Ian Enright. Additional reporting and recording by Cara Schillin. Our executive producers
at Goat Rodeo are Megan Nadulski and Ian Enright. Original theme and music by Hans Delshi
with additional music from Paramount. Final mix by Rebecca Sidell. Then Fulton is our fact checker. Our production
manager is Carara Schillin. I'm Aaron Morardi. If you're enjoying this show, be sure to give it a rating and review.
It helps more people find it and hear our reporting. If you liked 15 Inside the Daniel Marsh Murders, check out the
rest of our 48 hours podcasts by searching 48 hours on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening.
[Music]

Claudia and Chip's family hopes to move forward with their lives, but they're traumatized again when they see Daniel Marsh appear in a video claiming that he is a changed man. On top of that, new state laws intended to provide justice for juvenile offenders also mean that Daniel may get a chance at early release. Can a killer like Daniel Marsh be rehabilitated? And how can the family of Claudia Maupin and Chip Northup find peace?

True crime. Real justice. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

Daniel Marsh's TEDx talk raises questions about his rehabilitation and potential release under California's Proposition 57 after murdering two people.

Key points

Daniel Marsh's TEDx Talk. Daniel Marsh delivers a TEDx talk from prison, claiming he's changed. His story raises questions about his past.
The Court's Decision. The judge rules to keep Daniel Marsh's case in adult court, citing lack of rehabilitation progress.
Fear of Release. Family members express their fears about Daniel Marsh potentially being released back into society.
Tony's Tragic End. Tony, Norup's grandson, was mistakenly identified as a suspect and died by suicide.
Daniel Marsh's Ongoing Impact. The crimes of Daniel Marsh continue to affect families and advocate for legal changes.
Remembering Chip and Claudia. Their family cherishes the joyful memories of their lives before the tragedy.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I felt like no more. No more from you.

3:18WatchOct 1, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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