Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay (Part 1) | | Full Episode + Killer Conversation Podcast | Forensic Files

Now, a special two-part edition of 48 hours. [Music] You don't know exactly what you're going
to be finding up there. And and so just driving up there in in itself, you're kind of walking into the unknown.
I I believe I was a little nervous. I would describe it as being absolutely savage.
This was someone who used a baseball bat to kill the family. What I see is an attack that is not only
calculated and carried out with precision. There was blood all over the room, on the ceiling, on the floor. I
also see a crime scene that smacks of the murderer having a very, very personal vendetta.
Somebody just went off the deep end and once they started killing they either enjoyed it or they couldn't stop
themselves. In an upper middle class neighborhood of an upper middle class community,
[Music] three unsuspecting and undeserving human beings were savagely beaten to death. There's blood. They're
not breathing. I don't think it's safe here by somebody who they knew. [Music] [Music]
[Music] It was A plan, a well rehearsed, wellthoughtout plan. What happened in this house on a hot
summer night in 1994 brought tragedy and mystery to this quiet neighborhood in Belleview, Washington. Just after 2:00
in the morning on July 13th, police were called to a crime that would take them 10 years to bring to justice. Had you
ever seen anything like it? Never. James Jude Conat is a senior deputy prosecutor in King County. He and a team
of detectives have been haunted by this crime and the killers who got away. They
think that they are smarter than other people in the world. And I know that sounds just kind of a broad statement,
but I I really believe they believe that the search for the truth would lead police to another country through a web
of intriguing clues. Could this screenplay that described a murder unlock the mystery? And in the end,
would a sophisticated undercover operation set in a makebelieve world of crime catch the real killers?
The story begins with a call for help. Emergency. What are you reporting? Uh uh my friend, his mom and dad, we think
they're dead. Sebastian Burns and his friend Atifra had stumbled on a horrific scene.
Aif's parents had been murdered. There is nothing that I can imagine about my parents that could
have justified anyone to do what was done to them. Sultana Raf's mother was the first to be
killed. Sebastian, what did you see when you walked through that door? I saw mom
lying on the floor. Tariq Rafé was the next to be murdered. We could see there was blood around him
and it it was clear that he had been attacked. Why do you think that they're dead? There's blood. They're not
breathing. Uh there's blood all over his face. It was basically an overkill. Detective Bob Thompson has been on the
case since the night it began. It just looked like someone had hit him 40 or 50 times. Please. Fast. Okay. Yes, they're
on the way. Okay, they're on the way. We'll be outside. Okay, go ahead. As the boys waited for help to arrive, a third
victim, Aif's autistic older sister, Bosma, was clinging to life, moaning in her bedroom. The third victim was
autistic. It would make sense that she's murdered last because everybody knows that she can't make a 911 call.
Bosma died a few hours later at the hospital, taking with her the secret of who killed the Rafé family.
The Rafes had just moved to Belleview from Vancouver, Canada. Sultana had a doctorate in nutrition, but devoted her
life to raising her gifted son and disabled daughter. I think she was um certainly an extraordinary person. Do
you miss your mom? I do. What do you miss most about her? Well, the the mere presence is enough,
but uh she knew me in a way that uh I suspect that no one ever will. Um she was always able to look right through
the uh adolescent sort of pomposities that I might have had and remind me that uh I was just uh a silly kid at times.
Tariq Rafé was a structural engineer who had worked on buildings around the world. In a sense, we were all like kids
around him or or like my mom was too and we were all I guess sort of in his orbit. Um he was a brilliant person. Uh
probably a far better mathematician than I will ever be. No one could understand
who would take the lives of this quiet family and spare their only son. Detectives began to look more closely at
the crime scene. What's the problem there? There's been some kind of breakin. Sebastian had used the words
breakin to report what had happened. Is it locked? It's not locked. Unlock. Just
looking at that room, you started realizing this. This looks like someone set it up. Boxes were tipped over,
drawers were opened, but nothing appeared to have gone through. That night, when police asked what was
missing, Aif said two things. His disc man and a VCR. Someone came in, murdered three people, and took his Walkman and a
VCR. I mean, it makes no sense. Detectives probe deeper. Who were these teenage boys who reported the crime?
The 1992 93 school year. Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé had been best friends since
high school. What' you like about high school? I liked being a kid. I liked having free time and I liked hanging
around with other kids and I just liked being young. The boys shared a sarcastic sense of humor and an
interest in reading and debate. What would you guys talk about? What were you interested in? You know, it was things
like uh Shakespeare and philosophy and uh kamu and things like that. They had a lot in common. They became very good
friends because they were both precocious. They were both intelligent. Sarah Isix is Sebastian's high school
sweetheart. He went to parties. He was athletic and he became friends with a Tif and sort of showed a Tif how to
dress. He'd introduced Tif to girls. He sort of helped Tif be a a stud like he was.
That's going back a bit. Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots. There was a lot of respect in our
household. I mean, um, you didn't talk back to my parents. You didn't swear in the house. Sebastian's sister, Tiffany.
We both grew up playing classical cello. So, we had music lessons and we had to practice every day after school. All
right. In 2005, Tiffany was a TV reporter at the CBS station in Cleveland. She can't say enough about
her little brother. He's very smart. I mean, he's definitely what you would call an intellectual.
He's so well read. He's got so many fascinating things to say. Sebastian became a member of the Royal Canadian
Aircadets and was given an award by Prince Edward. A Tif made it to the Ivy League, attending Cornell University. It
was the summer of their freshman year in college when the murders took place. It sort of is like a jigsaw puzzle
where, you know, you just take that piece and you put it here and you start you start fitting it together and pretty
soon you get a picture. Police took Sebastian and Aif to the station and examine them for traces of blood. They
found nothing. When asked where they had been that evening, the boys provide a full account. At 8:30, they drove to a
restaurant for a bite to eat. Then they went to a 950 showing of the Lion King. But why do you remember them? They were
acting annoying, obnoxious. Everywhere they went, the people who came into contact with them remembered
them. After the movie, they stopped at another restaurant and left the waitress a $6 tip on a $9 tab. They don't usually
do that, especially young guys. Young guys don't tip very well. But something else troubled police. How could the boys
remember so much detail about where they'd been that evening and yet not recall key moments at the murder scene?
The police decided to interview Sebastian and Aif again and detectives recorded the conversation.
I found my mom. What did you do? I I may have gone up to her. I I can't remember.
I don't know what I did. Um I can't remember. Did you go walk over to your dad? Um, I don't think so. No.
Did you touch your dad? I don't think so. Well, you'd know, though, would you? Yeah. I I don't I I I don't know if I
know, but I don't I don't think I touch him. See, I don't understand this. Aif, your your sister is moaning. She's hurt.
Yeah. And you don't want to help her? Detectives wanted to know why Aif didn't help his dying sister even though he
heard her through her bedroom door. How hurt is she? I didn't know. Okay. You don't know how
hurt she is? I don't know how hurt she is. All I know is that I can't I I I can't do anything. Sebastian
were witnesses. By the time they left at the end of these statements, were they suspects? Yes, definitely sus. By the
time they left, they were suspects. You know what? I I think you know who it is. Who did they go? No. I I would tell
you. I would tell you if I knew who did it. And investigators thought they not only knew who, they also knew why. $300
to $400,000 is about to slip through his fingers if she lives. Are you saying that didn't go to the aid of his sister?
Because he didn't want to save his sister. Aif didn't go to the aid of his sister because unless she died,
the whole plan came crumbling down on them. 3 days after the murders, relatives gathered in Belleview to bury the rafes
in a traditional Muslim ceremony. But the only surviving member of the immediate family was nowhere to be
found. They were wondering where's the teeth? Where's the where's the son? On the day of the funeral, the Rafé's
only son was on a bus headed across the border to Canada. And with him was his best friend, Sebastian Burns.
Sebastian and Aif were now in Vancouver, Canada, out of reach of the Belleview police and an investigation that
targeted them for the murders of the Rafé family. Did the boys go to Vancouver or did they flee to Vancouver?
From our perspective, they they fled back to Vancouver. He didn't flee. He went home. Their sudden bus trip
across the border only raised more suspicion even though both boys were Canadian citizens. How do you flee a
country getting on a Greyhound bus? In fact, a representative from the Canadian consulate informed the Belleview police
of their trip in advance. She contacted the Belleview Police Department to say, "These guys are leaving. They're going
home if that's okay with you." and she was told, quote, "Sure." Mhm. She then tells the boys, "It's okay to go and
they leave." That is not fleeing. It is not fleeing. I think it's to ask permission. Aif and
Sebastian both had my numbers. They knew I was even in the process of getting them a pager so we could keep in
contact. And they're gone. They don't tell me where they're at. They know I'm investigating the murders of their
parents. And they're gone. Detective Thompson was a veteran cop. This is the other. His gut told him that
the boys were guilty, but he just didn't have the evidence to prove it. Investigators kept combing the house. Is
it locked? It's not locked. They found no forced entry. There was, however, an eerie clue. A forensic tool, Luminol,
showed blood on the shower walls. The killer had used the shower before leaving. the person was so comfortable
and calm and collected that he or she might then decide perhaps they'll have a shower before they go.
It is inconceivable. Could that be the reason why the boys who had discovered the bodies at that
bloody crime scene didn't have a trace of blood on their hair, their hands, or anywhere on their bodies?
Are you a killer, Sebastian? No, absolutely not. Did you hold that bat in your hands and kill those three people?
No, I didn't. You're not lying to me. No. Would you have ever done anything, Aif to hurt your parents? No. The single
most distressing thing about this entire experience is the fact that I would even
have to speak out and say, "Yeah, no, I I did not do that." Okay. Right in here.
Even without physical evidence, detectives were determined. They began to build a case against the boys based
on their odd behavior following the murders. They cooperated. They did everything that was asked of them.
However, when they did things, they they had this air or this attitude about doing it. They honed in on their
demeanor at the crime scene and questioned why they sat in front of the house if they believed an intruder might
still be there. He's out on the curb, you know, 20 yard away from the the front door where this supposed killer
might be in the house and he's waiting for the police on the curb. Well, the T7 a cigarette. I'm not sure that anything
that we did made any sense. I I was not thinking in a normal way. Police also couldn't make sense of why a
thief would notice that his discman and VCR were missing. He's walking around the house claiming to discover the fact
the VCR is missing. And ultimately, while his mother and father and sister lay in a state of
carnage, let's not mince words here. It is carnage. He claims to have discovered that the
walkman was missing from his bedroom. And they've decided that my son and his friend are the guilty parties. They've
decided that I believe him to be totally innocent as is a teeth and they have been damned.
Sebastian's family and friends rallied around him and a teeth. I remember sitting on those steps with Sebastian. I
remember sitting on that field. Sebastian's former girlfriend, Sarah Isac, says she knows his character
better than anyone. Have you ever thought to yourself, maybe there was something I missed about Sebastian that
I just didn't see? There's nothing that anyone could tell me. There's never a moment when someone could tell me
something that made me think, honestly, maybe he did it. I never had to face that moment ever. I know Sebastian.
He was and is my very, very good friend. Did the cops investigating this just need to get home to dinner? I mean, why
didn't they follow up the leads that came their way? And there were other compelling leads.
Within days of the crime, police received a tip from a reliable informant that someone had offered $20,000 to kill
an East Indian family that had recently moved from Vancouver to Belleview. There's no physical evidence that links
Aif and Sebastian to the crime. Their alibis check out and now you get this lead from an informant in Canada that
somebody had been bragging about a hit on an East Indian family in Belleview, Washington.
tells me that's the direction now you should be focusing your investigation since there's no evidence against these
boys. Well, there is evidence against those boys. There was a lot of evidence against those boys and it was all
circumstantial. It wasn't evidence to convict them. Certainly. Is it fair to say that you didn't properly check out
this lead in Vancouver? Um, you know, there are it may be fair to say that that lead was not fully checked out.
You get all kinds of tips that come in and you have to weigh them. But the leads didn't go that direction. The
leads went directly to Canada and the leads followed we followed those leads to Sebastian and Aif.
Why don't you talk to police? But on the advice of a lawyer, the boys decided to
stop cooperating with Belleview authorities. The minute we went to Canada, Burns and Rafé wouldn't talk to
us at all. They were telling other people not to talk to us. So Thompson kept digging and found what
he thought was a disturbing clue from their past. We started looking through their high school yearbook and Sebastian
Burns was uh in a high school play called The Rope about two kids who commit the perfect murder.
[Music] These are words that Sebastian's character said on stage. Do you mind reading it?
An immaculate murder. I have killed. I have killed for the sake of danger and for the sake of killing. Ariana McGregor
performed in the West Vancouver High School production of Rope along with Sebastian. The character in the play is
somebody who's arrogant and um believes he's better than everybody else. And Sebastian had a quality of being
superior. He knew he was intelligent, knew he's good-looking. What was Rope about? The gimmick of the play is that
there's somebody is murdered at the start of the play and the villains put him into a box and then they invite
guests over. Everybody's at this party wondering when the last guest is going to show up and nobody knows that
actually he's in the box at the front of the play. And so, um, there's lots of suspenseful giggles all the way through
because everybody in the audience knows that there's this, uh, person, this this
thing in the box. He's black and white. Your character on stage says, "We've always said, you and I, that moral
concepts of right and wrong don't hold for the intellectually superior. The only crime we can commit is a mistake.
There's some people who believe those are words that the real Sebastian Burns might say. Mom, that's ridiculous.
There was no time ever during any performance or any rehearsal that anybody was ever thinking anything
serious about any of the supposed intellectual philosophies in this play or or anything like that.
But detectives believed the fictional murder story did inspire the real life crime. Even more chilling, the weapon
was the same, a baseball bat. Well, that's just a huge coincidence. I think Sebastian was actually mortified when
when he realized that he was a suspect in the baseball bat killings of the Rafé because he said, "Chris, what's going to
happen when they find out about the play?" How does the play end? their superior figures them out. Someone who
is actually more intelligent than they are uh figures it out and they get caught.
As the investigation continued in Belleview, the boys were living well in Vancouver.
With some of the money Aif inherited from his parents' estate, they bought a convertible and rented an apartment
together with another high school pal. I think I'll stay here forever. Jimmy Moshi
behind drawn curtains, they hid from the media who were constantly in pursuit of
them and their story. Hello, is Aif there? 987. But while they weren't talking to
the police, the police were listening to them. Hello, Rafe. Oh, yeah. Every word
they spoke at home or in their car was being recorded. How are you doing? Um, okay. I guess the boys had no idea they
were now the targets of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP. The RCMP applied for and ultimately uh obtained
authorization to do wire taps. On April 10th, 1995, RCMP investigators intercepted this phone message.
This is Quimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment with Gregory tomorrow, Tuesday, April
11th. Sebastian could never have imagined that he was about to fall into a trap set by one of the most
sophisticated undercover operators in the world. There was no doubt in my mind that yes, Sebastian Burns was
responsible for this and we were in fact going to get a full confession from him.
By April of 1995, Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé were Canada's most famous teenage murder suspects.
I remember a time when we're at a bus stop and someone drove by and rolled down the window and yelled, "Murderers."
That was typical. They were paras. They were hated. I was uh unable to go to college. I was
unable to get a job. But the boys had a plan to make their fortune and live out a lifelong dream.
They started work on their very own screenplay about two best friends accused of murdering a family.
The movie was going to be about Sebastian Barren and a Tifra and the injustice that was heaped upon them as a
result of the suspicion about their involvement in this triple aggravated murder case in Belleview. They called it
the Great Despisers. We were worried that it would sound a bit nerdy because having the word great
in the title sounds makes sound kind of nerdy. And uh if we'd called that, for example, just the despisers,
um that would have uh been more unimpeachably cool. However, we we decided to have the courage to stick
with this nerdy title. While the boys worked on what they say is their fictional story about two friends
falsely accused, they had no idea the real life plotline was about to take an astonishing turn.
This is Crimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment with Greg. That simple message from a
local hair salon was the moment the RCMP was waiting for. I think they were very
vulnerable to whatever the RCMP had in store for them. These were kids who' lived pretty
sheltered lives. When Sebastian was finished at Crimper Salon, a stranger was waiting. And when
Mr. Burns comes out of the salon, the undercover operator just approaches him, what they call the cold approach.
He seemed to me like some kind of an entrepreneur. He walks up to him and says, "Hey buddy, can you give me a
hand? I seem to have locked my keys in the car." So, uh, he asked me for a ride to his hotel and I gave him a ride. The
stranger took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink for his trouble. I was impressed by that. And um I
was also sort of intrigued, I guess, or or excited about the way that he seemed um so ready to be interested in me.
Sebastian told his new friend that he and his buddies had written a screenplay, but he didn't have a job and
needed financing. The friend said he knew someone who could help. Ultimately, the goal was to get Sebastian to meet
with the next guy up the chain, and it worked perfectly. Sebastian thought he was about to meet a connected
businessman, but it was this man, Sergeant Hlett of the RCMP. We cannot show you his face. I don't
think there's an undercover team like this anywhere in the world. And I say that very seriously. The best of the
best. the best. The RCMP spent months preparing to manipulate their target. They had access to fancy cars, posh
hotel suites, weapons, false international documents, beautiful women. Posing as professional mobsters, the
RCMP set up the first meeting with Sebastian at a strip club. How important was this movie to Sebastian Burns? It
was just about his whole uh life. The crime boss told Sebastian he did have cash to invest in his screenplay, but
Sebastian would have to earn it. Sebastian had no idea he was being offered work in a makebelieve world of
crime. Jobs were also promised to Aif and their pal Jimmy Mioshi. I hope these guys are solid, man. These
guys are never going to betray me. Ever. All right. Never. Ever. Sebastian's first assignment.
Transport a stolen car for the crime boss. He had nothing. And then he was offered something. He was offered
something that was criminal, something that he probably wouldn't have thought was a good idea had he had something
else going on in his life. He was only paid $200 for the job. And he wasn't happy. He was disgusted.
He made it clear he wasn't happy. He uh told us he could make more money than that stealing his videos out of stores.
It was essential to the undercover operation that Sebastian continue working for the organization. So the
next staged crime is easier for more cash. What I want you guys to do, which is no big deal. It's pretty
straightforward. Uh Sebastian and Jimmy Moshi go from one bank to another laundering money. Cash is here. Just
take a deposit into this account. 20 What are you guys running the first time? Next time a different bank. This
time for a day's work, they get paid $2,000. So cool. This has been a thing for anymore. I
couldn't help but be excited about having $2,000 put in my hand and I'd hardly had to do anything for it. Months
go by. The undercover operators take Sebastian to posh hotels trying to build trust and draw him out.
Where are we going? uh go out. We haven't started filming or anything, but our script is uh can
Did you sense that Sebastian felt he was smarter than you? Oh, there's no doubt.
He made it clear and told us that on more than one occasion. Smart. Tell me how smart you are. I'm
one of the most intelligent people in the world. Slowly, the undercover operators bring up the investigation in
Belleview. Hlett tries to get Sebastian to confess by telling him he already knows what happened. I know you did it.
You know you did it. The police know you. All right. I know that. Sebastian doesn't admit guilt, but he
confides in the mobsters that if the police did find something to tie him to the crime, he might want them to destroy
it. And he has a very practical theory. As one of the best known murder suspects in
Canada, he is confident that his movie would make millions if he is suddenly proven innocent.
And a film with that kind of promotion because the thing is as it is right now, it's like controversy, right? Which in
itself promotes, right? But this is like, oh, you're heroes. Something goes up to 2530 million. Taking their cue
again from their target, the businessmen raise the stakes. They tell Sebastian that the Belleview police have physical
evidence tying him to the crime. Well, I tell you, they're coming to lock your ass up.
Yours and your friends. To make it seem real, Haslett shows him this phony memo on Belleview Policehead
detailing the evidence linking Sebastian to the murders. here. Just read this piece of
The mobsters offer to destroy the so-called evidence, but they need Sebastian to tell them exactly what
happened in the Rafé house the night of the murders. Well, I want your help and you need my
help. So, you tell me what went on down there and I'm going to tell you how I'm going
to take care of your problem. Finally, on July 18th, 1995, one year after the murders, Sebastian
meets the crime boss, Sergeant Hlett, at the Ocean Point Resort, and the cameras
are rolling. He walks into this hotel room and takes off his shoes. He stretches out on a love
seat. It's only then that Mr. Burns lets his guard down and the dirty little secret that he's been protecting for the
last 12 or 13 months starts to unravel on video for the whole wide world to see. It has taken 3 months of undercover
work to get to this moment. Both guys are coming in and say, "Hey, let's go off your family and get all
their money." Basically, essentially, yeah. and he uh told me the details how him
and Tif Rafé did commit the murders in Belleview. How you knew three people at once?
Uh not at extremely extremely cold individual. It's phenomenal to you, man. The next day, Sebastian brings a teif to
the crime boss to tell his story. Particularly, how does it feel when your parents must
pretty rottenly, but it's tempered by the fact that I felt that necessary to I guess um achieve what I wanted to
achieve in this life. That's all the police needed to hear. Those were solid, strong confessions
that only the individuals that responsible for that murder would be able to sit down and tell it like it
was. Cheers. Sebastian, Aif, and Jimmy Moshi are all arrested. You have anything to say? But
this case is just beginning. Sebastian says he's lying, that undercover officers intimidated him into making a
false confession. I believe that if I'd cross them that they would have me killed
Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé, best friends who once dreamed of making it big in movies,
were now behind bars. But no sooner were Sebastian and Aif arrested than the same Canadian
government that set a trap to catch them led an international battle to spare their lives. We should not be sending
anybody back. The case went all the way up to Canada's Supreme Court. Persons who leave the country and commit
offenses outside of the country should expect that they will be punished under the laws of the jurisdiction in which
they committed um the crime. [Music] Sending the boys back across the border to Washington meant they would face the
death penalty if convicted. A punishment Canada had long since abolished and considered inhumane.
We never knew when we were going to be leaving for the United States. And every time we heard, oh, there may be a trial,
you know, next year, then it became the next year. And that lasted for about four years where we thought that we were
a week away from extradition. After 6 years of legal wrangling, the King County prosecutor in Seattle agreed
to Canada's demands not to seek the death penalty. Sebastian and Aif, now 25year-old men,
were finally extradited to face murder charges. Mr. Raf, you're charged. Mr. Burns, you're charged in the cause
numbers that I just read with three counts of aggravated murder in the first degree. If convicted, the penalty would
now be life with no parole. That goes with the motion to dismiss. They were appointed a team of attorneys.
Representing Sebastian was Terresa Olsen, an ardent, if eccentric, public defender who believed in the boy's
innocence. Of course they didn't do the killings. The the evidence is clear that
they didn't do the killings. Olsen worked tirelessly on the case, running down leads and witnesses.
But in the summer of 2002, the case took a bizarre turn. Guards at the King County Jail reported
seeing Olsen having sex with Sebastian during an attorney client meeting. Shut up. The well publicized scandal even
caught the attention of late night comic Jay Leno. A female lawyer in Seattle is
in trouble for having sex in jail with her client who is a murderer. How creepy is that? Huh? Sex with a lawyer
and brought the trial to a grinding halt. This court had no choice but to appoint new counsel. Sebastian's
new attorneys were a dream team. Ivy League trained Jeff Robinson and Song Richardson. There is a lot at stake for
Sebastian Burns and we will be fighting till the end. 187's a retired artist. They were among Seattle's best and most
expensive criminal defense lawyers. Exactly. Along with Amanda Lee, they staunchly
believed in the boy's innocence and agreed to take the high-profile case at a public defender's wage. They have been
essentially judged and treated as though they were guilty from the beginning when
the evidence just isn't there. What kind of pressure is on all of your shoulders
as we approach this trial? nothing more or less than the rest of Sebastian Burn's natural life.
They were up against two of the most seasoned and respected prosecutors in Seattle. I want to talk to him. Let's
set up. Roger David Heheiser would be joining James Conat on the case. It's not justice. It's the truth. What we're
after here is the truth. And I would submit to you that's what separates our side from theirs.
By September 2003, Sebastian and Aif had been in jail for more than 8 years. Charged but never convicted for the Rafé
family murders. You have to recognize that these are human beings and they have had their
lives stolen from them. And to make it worse, they've had their lives stolen from them
to somehow resolve a murder that they didn't commit. The case would turn on those
controversial confessions. Make believe mobsters extracting confessions from teenagers.
Is that allowed in the state of Washington? It's not allowed in the state of Washington.
And I don't think it's allowed anywhere else in the United States under the circumstances that it was done in this
case. Are you comfortable using the results from an illegal undercover investigation by US laws in your case?
This investigation was not illegal because it was conducted in Canada by Canadian authorities targeting Canadian
citizens. It was an investigation that they undertook separate and apart from the Belleview investigation.
[Applause] This case, it's not only about the lives of my two friends. It's about the
responsibility of police and prosecutors to do their job properly and to act in good faith.
And they have not done that in this case. It would be up to Superior Court Judge Charles Martell. Well, please be
seated everyone to decide if Sebastian and Aif's chilling confessions caught on tape would be allowed to damn them in an
American court. Other prosecutors in other cases with evidence just like that have told jurors just like the ones
that will sit in our case that it's a slam dunk. And those jurors very comfortably have convicted people and
sentenced them to die. And they've been wrong. Judge Martell was about to make the most
controversial ruling of his career. The boy's lives would depend on what he was about to say.
48 hours continues. [Music] Before [Music] we begin, just a trigger warning. The
following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen
with care. Let's be honest. You've been portrayed as a monster. Yes. Evil, maniacal,
plotting, a murderer. Are you those things? No. [Music] Welcome to Killer Conversation, a
podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer, so I like to think I
know a thing or three about killers. In this episode, Peter Vans and I will take
a deep dive into two interviews he did with convicted killers, teenagers who murdered three people for money and the
thrill of it back in 1994. A decade later, they agreed to be interviewed exclusively by Peter for 48
hours. Did you hold that bat in your hands and kill those three people? No, I didn't.
Sebastian Burns has been described as the mastermind who used a metal baseball bat to kill his buddy Aif Rafé's mother,
father, and sister while Aif stood by. Aif, did you and Sebastian Burns meticulously plan the murder of your
family? Absolutely not. Hi, Peter. Good to see you again. Thanks so much for joining me. So, this was
such a high-profile case. You covered it twice for 48 hours and wrote a book about it. Tell us how you got involved.
Sometimes it's the simplest of of ways. The house where this occurred was about a mile and a half from the house where I
grew up in, this was in Bellev, Washington. and a great source that I'd used over the years, my mother called to
tell me about it and I immediately did everything I could to try to uh land this assignment. So, from the very
beginning, it was I had really kind of a personal stake in this. I think I know the answer to this question, but I want
to hear you say it. What was it about this case? Oh, man. This story had everything. You've got two best friends.
They're young. They're meticulous plotters. vicious, heartless characters that some fiction writer could not have
come up with. The two of them met in high school in Vancouver, Canada. And in all the years I had lived in Belleview,
there had never been an unsolved murder case. So both of these boys were Canadian citizens at the time, right? I
mean, the Rafes were living in Washington, but they were they were Canadians. So this case drew
international attention. And yet you were the only journalist who Sebastian and Natif agreed to interview with. How
did you get that interview? Why 48 hours? Well, first 48 does have a great reputation of honestly telling these
stories and wanting to hear from both sides and and respecting the whole process. But it has to go back to my
producers on this one. Jenna Jackson, Guyian Kosishian, and Nancy Kramer, uh, who lived dedicated their lives, uh,
this six-monthlong trial. We had someone there virtually every day. And so, they
met the defense attorneys, they developed relationships, they met Sebastian's parents, and Tifs, of
course, were dead. Um, and they developed some trust. And as a Seattleite, that connected with a lot of
people. I was I grew up there. I knew the the area. I knew Vancouver, Canada really well. And I think all of that
came together and we managed to land the interviews. Amazing. I I know what that's like to uh sit through long
trials and and gain everyone's trust. Um so they are both remorseless killers but
so different. Sebastian seems diabolical. Aif is so aloof. How did you prepare for two very different
interviews? Well, in both cases, you know, we had the the ability to dig into these police
reports. We watched the undercover videos which were haunting. We interviewed investigators, prosecutors,
defense attorneys. You know, they all were very open with sharing information with us and I can't can't thank them
enough. Sebastian was cocky and condescending and people said he was the mastermind and he just would look at you
and couldn't help it but look down upon you even though he's wearing an orange jumpsuit even though he's the one behind
bars. Um I was the fool in the room I felt when I was talking to him and I knew I had to be direct and really well
prepared because he would correct me on any any fact. Aif was his devoted follower. He was a very soft-spoken
intellectual um who, if you believe what investigators have concluded in this case, he stood by while his best friend
in the world savagely beat his family to death with a baseball bat. So, I honestly didn't know what to expect with
him because when you first greet him, he's very well-mannered, but as you get into a conversation, he loves to turn it
into um verbal combat and he wants to impress you with his with his array of weapons uh with the with the English
language. And so it's fascinating to sit with him and he found that to be almost
a contest, a debate in a way that he in his mind he could never lose. You talked
to them separately in the jail where they were awaiting sentencing. Tell me about that day.
It was so weird. I It was a vibe that I have never encountered in any other uh interview with a killer. Arrogance just
filled the air. or no remorse, not taking any responsibility for these horrors. Occasionally, they would smile
in a way that was exasperating. I mean, I even said at one time in the interview
to Sebastian, "What do you think this is funny?" Cuz he'd have a smile on his face. And so, in that way, it was a real
out of body experience for me as a journalist. Did you ever think to yourself that
because of your superior intelligence, the rules of society did not apply to you?
No. And I really didn't sincerely think in those terms at all. My, as you put it, my superior intelligence. I just
like I said, I used to make a lot of wise cracks. And um no, I I didn't think like that.
How would you describe Sebastian in a word? Uh, I have to use words unfortunately, but he handsome, charming
when he chose to be, smart, someone who could have accomplished great things in life. Sebastian, he became a member of
the Royal Canadian Aircadets. And there's this picture of him getting an award by Prince Edward, you know, and
his parents were so proud. Uh, he expected to be a lawyer in life, he said, because he loved to be so
argumentative. He was raised in a um in a really great home, a very sophisticated upper middle
class family. Mom and dad were very well educated. They lived in West Vancouver,
British Columbia. It was a very, very desirable neighborhood. It was a place where Sebastian and his sister Tiffany,
they'd wake up the parents in the morning, uh, on Christmas morning playing their cellos, you know, a
Christmas song to to wake them up. Uh, Sister uh, Tiffany was was a real successful woman in her own right. She
was a television reporter and anchor at at the CBS station in Cleveland and working her way up in a very promising
career. How would you describe a Tif in in a word? Compliant. That's the way he was
with with Sebastian. Aif had been accepted at Cornell University, which is currently ranked number 11 in the
country by US News and World Report. He was impressive and he knew it. And I know you've heard this many times, but
the notion is two arrogant, smug, self-absorbed young men who saw themselves as intellectually superior
planned the perfect murder so that you could financially benefit from it and achieve the things in your own words
that you wanted to achieve in life. Yeah, I know. It's uh such a compelling tabloid narrative, but like many tabloid
narratives, it's fatuous and foolish and false. And um it's uh that particular line about uh achieving
the things that I want to do in life. I think that if any discerning person looks at that, they will see the empty
abstractions of someone who is trying to come up with some kind of justification
for something that he didn't do and couldn't justify. My goodness, his smuggness is palpable
and he has a smile on his face the whole time. What made these two friends, Peter?
I guess there was there similarities in intellect, but they were the odd couple.
One was the leader, one was the follower. They were both quirky. Um they they gravitated toward each other in
high school. Both were fans of the German philosopher Frederick Nichze who was Hitler's favorite philosopher by the
way. Nietze um had this theory of uber mench, the superman who could impose his own morality, his own will upon the weak
through strength and dominance. Um I think they saw themselves as supermen. Were there any signs when they were in
high school that either of them might be capable of of a crime like this? Yeah. And when we were doing interviews in in
Vancouver, there was a a woman we spoke to uh who was a a good friend of Sebastian's, in fact, a girlfriend, and
she told authorities. Sebastian had told her that he wanted to know what it was like to kill someone.
Are you saying that you are incapable of committing murder? Yes, absolutely. You
are. Then how do you explain what you said to your friend Nazgal Shifty 6 months before these murders? I'd like to
kill somebody someday. I think I'd like to know what it feels like. I think I might find it rather enjoyable.
That was a sarcasm that I made. First of all, I want to be clear. That's not a verbatim quote. Nobody knows what the
verbatim quote is. That was a sarcasm that was made uh at some point when I was 17 years old. I was reminded of it
for the first time just this last March. Okay. Why would he even say a thing like that?
Like who says a thing like that? What was he testing her? Yeah. Look, this girlfriend, that quote was burned into
her mind. She was very bright. And I think that was maybe a word or two off. But note the note the analysis he has to
give us about about it's not exactly verbatim but she was absolutely certain this what it what what what he said and
it also sent a chill up her spine and um but also as an uber mench he could say and do whatever he wanted to and get
this in the high school yearbook Sebastian had described himself as a titan with furious contempt for the
petty strictctures of plebeians And a tif wrote, "Hearing the cries of the plebs below, Aif descended through
the clouds and gazed beusely at the petty struggles of those around him and laughed."
This again, brilliant immaturity, word play used for shock. Okay, let's let's talk about the
murders. According to authorities, sometime in the late evening of July 12th, 1994, Sebastian used a metal
baseball bat to bludgeon Aif's parents and his sister while Aif basically stood by. He may even have been watching at
some points. You've seen a lot of crime scene photos, Peter. We both have. How do you think these compare?
These crime scene pictures were among the most gruesome I had ever seen. particularly Aif's father. The first
picture I saw was of Sultana Rafé, Aif's mother. Um, who would have known that Sultana at that time of day would have
been down unpacking boxes cuz they had they had moved into this new house. Latif would know that. And it's believed
that she was attacked first. Her head was crushed from behind. She probably had no idea that this killer was
approaching her. She's lying on her stomach. Uh fascinating that too that her head was covered in a scarf. And
investigators will tell you that when a killer knows the victim and particularly
if it's someone close to them that they often cover the head because they just don't want to look at the face, right?
And so we move on then upstairs. The killer then moved upstairs and Tariq Aif's father, 56 years old at the time,
he was sleeping on his back uh and his head was pulverized by several dozen blows at least um investigators believe.
And this was as savage a rage killing as I have ever seen. The third one was Basma. She's 20 years
old. Why would they save Basma for last? Well, she couldn't talk and uh she uh was autistic
and the killer entered her room and this uh turned into a bit of a struggle because she was physically strong and
she was running and trying to get away and was being being hit. And one neighbor heard, and this is so
disturbing, what he described as a mooing sound coming from inside the Rafé house. And we know today, and
investigators believe that noise was Bosma crying out as she fought for her life. When investigators got into the
room, they noticed she had defensive wounds all over her hands. uh her skull had been smashed in and many of her
teeth had been knocked out. So this was a terrifying, horrible, drawn out uh death for Bosma. So incredibly brutal. I
mean, one of the detectives said somebody went off the deep end and once they started killing either enjoyed it
or couldn't stop themselves. Two neighbors even heard the pounding of the bat. Yeah. One thought they were must be
putting up big paintings because they were having to hit the wall so hard. Why would Sebastian be so brutal about
these killings? This is something that um I don't really have the answer for this one. People
have often wondered and the investigators did on this considering what Sebastian had talked about killing
and wondering what it was like that that this was a thrill kill, right? Uh, we know that Sebastian had starred in a
high school play called Rope, which was turned into a movie. One of my favorite films, mine, too. Directed by Alfred
Hitchcock. The play and his film are about two young friends, much like Sebastian and Aif, who strangle a friend
with a rope for the thrill of it, right? To see what it's like. And so, there's similarities between what he acted out
on stage and what was occurring in that house. Okay, let let's take a break and when we come back we'll talk about why
prosecutors think Sebastian and Aif committed these horrible murders. The answer is chilling on so many levels.
The senior deputy prosecutor on the case against Sebastian Burns and Aifra Fay called the murders absolutely savage.
What reason did they have to commit these gruesome murders? Well, we know Sebastian had expressed an
interest in killing someone someday to see what it felt like. And in this case, um, Aif's parents, uh, had some money
and they had life insurance as well. And I think money did play a role in this. And uh Aif had this difficult
relationship with his father who was deeply religious and and he had also expressed kind of a resentment of his
autistic sister Basma. He called her gross and said he never really liked her and prosecutors said that he would mock
and he would mimic her in front of her. Um so money that that to me I think is at the heart of this. I think you're
right. And with a teeth saying at one point that he wanted to be able to live the life he wanted to do to live and the
money would would allow him to do that. Right. Right. You asked a tie about his relationship with his family and his
answer left me cold. How would you describe your relationship with your parents?
Um, I we had uh I I was close closer to my mom than probably anyone that I ever have been or will ever be close to. Um
uh I loved both my parents. Um I admired my father. Uh I had we had a I mean at the same time we had uh all kinds of
arguments uh which I enjoyed having and which I suspect they enjoyed having as well. Um we had um
uh I guess uh I mean it's hard to sum up the relationship that a person has with
one's parents because it's in one sense the closest and most basic sort of relationship that you will ever
have. It constitutes who you are as a human being. Um and uh I mean did you love your mom and dad? Yes. Yes. Do you
love your sister? I would have to say that um I didn't really have a relationship with my
sister. And so I think that if I were to say that I loved my sister, I would sort
of be demeaning the feelings that I had for my parents. That is so strange. And he was very
honest about not loving his sister. What were you thinking in that moment? It's it's just a coldness that u that
you know if you dehumanize it's easier to kill. Okay. So the these murders were very well thought out.
Clearly not well enough to keep them out of prison, but there was a lot of planning that went into these murders.
What was the plan? The idea was to be out uh for the evening in a very noticeable way cuz
they went to a restaurant called the Keg. By the way, Keg is, you know, five miles from where I grew up. I I went
there after while I was covering this case, just to have dinner there and see the place. Um, and that's in Factori,
Washington, which is right off the interstate near Belleview. That's where the movie complex was, where they went
to see The Lion King. And a waiter would later tell police that he remembered the
two underage Canadians trying to order wine. So, they did something that would draw attention where they'd have to show
ID, right? Um, and then when they get to the movie theater, when Sebastian was buying his movie tickets, he goes, "Hey,
you like my shirt?" And his shirt had a big cartoon character, some milkman character on it. And and the ticket
taker remembered Sebastian. Yeah. This odd guy said, "Hey, take a look at my t-shirt." Again, he's registering in
people's minds. He's creating a a memory that he was there. and a thief was wearing an army jacket. Once inside the
movie theater, people said that they were obnoxious. They were drawing attention to themselves. They were
talking loudly. At one point, one of them went up to the screen and tried to pull the movie curtains apart again. Get
everyone's attention. Yeah, I remember those guys. I saw them there. Then after they snuck out, they committed the
crimes. Investigators believe that after the murder, the boys went out on this uh
tour of eeries to try to to try to draw attention to themselves as much as they could so people would remember them if
investigators came to question employees. And their first stop was a diner where they paid with a $10 bill
for basically about a $3 meal and leaving a $7 tip. and the waitress remembered them when they end up also
then going out to a nightclub that that was closing at 2 am and they demanded to
be let in but they were not again people would remember yeah those two boys they
were shouting at us let us into the club everywhere they went they wanted to create a memory with an employee that if
authorities came and remember over and over the police questioned the neighbors in the hopes that they would change
their timelines because for investigators this was a big problem. On one side of the Rafé house, there was a
woman named Julie. And she was a very meticulous woman who every night went through a routine that began at a
certain time where, as I recall, she put in a a load of wash and um and then put
it in the dryer and then she would read for a particular amount of time, usually
even the same amount of pages each night. and she would look at her at her clock and she would go to bed at exactly
the same time. And based on her story, the boys were at that movie theater at the time that she was an ear witness to
the murders inside the Rafé house. When she heard all of this noise coming from there, the boys weren't there. They were
at the movie theater and that is not disputed. So, so she heard pounding at a time when those boys were allegedly
spotted at the movie theater. Yeah. This is before any of the encounters with the
waitresses and everything else, right? She never changed her her timeline. But investigators just simply said,
"Well, we're going to say and we'll say in court that we just think she's wrong.
She just had her times wrong." Even though she won't change and that that she was wrong, but it created an opening
for the defense. And there was another neighbor who heard it and believed it was also at the same time.
So Sebastian and Aif claimed they entered the Rafé family home uh at around 2:00 a.m. and that Sebastian was
the first to see Aif's mother lying in a pool of blood. They admit that they never touched her. They didn't even
bother to see if she was still alive or try to help her. How do you know she's still not
breathing? How do you not turn her over to check if she's breathing to see if there's something you could do? I don't
know. I don't know. And I don't know. And maybe that was a really cowardly thing to do. It was just
a reflex. I I cannot describe to you how shocking it was. Just how completely confounding it was.
And there was nothing sensical about my reaction at all. It's been alleged you didn't want to touch the body because
you didn't want to get blood on you because you that would wreck your alibi. It would wreck the stage that you had
set there to fool police. That's completely wrong. I mean, if you're not the killer, you're
you're trying to save that person, right? You don't care if you get blood on you, right? Right. Absolutely. During
the investigation, Sebastian was caught on tape saying that he was naked when he
committed the murders. What's that all about? Well, think about it. If you're wearing clothes, you're going to get
blood spatter on those clothing, and that can turn into evidence. Uh, and investigators concluded fairly early on,
this is just one of the bizarre things. Never heard of this before in any murder
case I've covered that the killer stepped into the shower and took a shower. And what did investigators find
in that in that shower stall on the drain? There were 21 hairs recovered and they were all from Sebastian Burns
and uh and the walls of the shower uh had blood on them. It was tested and that was Tariq
Rafase, Aif's dad. But what killer would step in to take a shower, particularly if it was a stranger? Cuz that killer
would have known, hm, a teeth's not here. He could come home. I better get out of this house as quickly as
possible. Good point. What killer would step in to take a shower if that killer didn't know there wasn't anyone left to
come home? Right. if if because Aif was there. He was alive there and he was one
of the two killers. So they discover Aif's mother and then Sebastian calls 911. When the police
arrived, uh Aif's sister, Bosma, was still alive. They could hear her moaning. The boys would have heard her,
too. And you asked them why they didn't try to save Bosma's life. Let let's listen to a tif.
Your sister was in the other room. You knew she was injured. You could hear her moaning. How do you not go in and give
first aid? You could have saved your sister's life. Well, for one, I don't really know first aid. And I didn't even
think of it. I didn't even You're a bright guy. If someone's bleeding, you know how to stop bleeding, right? You're
right. You know that for the average person, it sounds terrible that you didn't go in there. It sounds like you
wanted her to die. Well, I suppose that if I had planned these murders, I would certainly have
rushed in and made heroic efforts to uh save her. Um, unfortunately, I had not planned these uh murders. I didn't
commit these murders, and Sebastian didn't either. And I was I acted in a cowardly and shameful way, which I felt
ashamed of even in the days immediately following and have never since ceased feeling shameful of. But those
were my reactions under pressure, I guess. Oh, Peter, where to start? It was a decision. It wasn't a decision if he had
planned the murders. But unfortunately, he didn't plan the murders. Is this a confession of sorts? I'm not quite sure.
I mean, so in other words, yeah, I he uh planned it. Sebastian did. I would have
done a much better job. Uh it's it's stupid that that answer is so clumsy and so void of humanity.
[Music] [Music] Okay. So, Peter, police focused on the boys from the very beginning. Why? Well,
let's go down the list. You know, they discovered the bodies. The murders didn't look like a robbery gone bad.
They both talked about there must have been a break-in. There were no signs of any forced entry at the house. There was
an overkill situation. No burglar would do something like that. And cops became even more suspicious when the night
after the murder, Sebastian and a thief were spotted at a local video store renting movies. They didn't seem at all
phased by the gruesome murder scene they had they had discovered. And police were
also struck by how many details they remembered about their night out on the town. Remember all the waitresses and
all the things, but they couldn't recall what they did when they got home and found Aif's family beaten to death.
Yeah, they weren't exactly acting like teenagers who were in a state of shock. So, let's talk about the defense for a
minute. The boys and their defense team believed that Aif's father was assassinated and that his wife and
daughter were collateral damage. What What can you tell us about that? Well, Aif's father, Tariq, he was prominent
and active in the local Muslim community and he offended more conservative Muslims. And how is that? Well, as an
engineer, Tariq Rafé, he calculated true east and determined that all the mosques
in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia, Canada, were not properly facing Mecca, you know, and Muslims must
pray toward Mecca. And this is crucial. Uh, and so he said everyone was going to
have to move their prayer mats one degree. doesn't sound like a big deal, but for some this could be blasphemous.
This could be how how dare you? We you're telling us that we've been praying in the wrong direction. Um and
Belleview police ended up getting three tips that the murders may have been related to fundamentalists who wanted
Tariq and his family dead. A Canadian officer told them that an informant had warned him that there was a hit out on
an East Indian family in Belleview. Now, the Rafé family, they're not East Indians, they're from Pakistan, but
still the context and the nature of that tip is strongly suggesting that that they could have been the targets. Right.
Also, the Seattle Police Intelligence Division reported that they believed the family may have been killed by an
extremist group called Alukra. And an FBI informant told them that he knew an imam who ordered the murders and knew a
man who said he committed the murders. He said he even saw a baseball bat in in the trunk of his car and believed that
that was the murder weapon. Um, the cops hadn't even publicized that the weapon was a metal baseball bat yet. I mean,
all this is just so intriguing. It seems like the Belleview police kind of like blew that all off. Do you think it's
possible that they just didn't pay attention to that at all? I believe with all that has happened in the world, this
would this would be checked out. And at the time, I I think it wasn't properly checked out.
On the day that Aif Rafé's parents and his sister were laid to rest, Aif was nowhere to be found, he and his buddy
Sebastian Burns were on a bus on their way to Sebastian's home in Vancouver, Canada.
My dad was very worried about what the Belleview police were doing. He'd called a friend of his who was a lawyer. He
told his friend uh some of the things that the police had been saying to him and it was pretty clear that the police
were treating us as suspects. His friend, who was a lawyer, said if it was my kid, I'd drive down there tonight and
pick him up myself. My dad asked me did I want him to come and drive down that night and pick him up myself after after
he told me that. And I told him, "No, it's okay. We'll catch a bus back the next day." but he was very concerned
that we'd come back to Canada as soon as possible. How did the Belleview police feel about
their prime suspects fleeing the country? This is a part of the story that really drives me freaking crazy.
Um, they didn't have any basis to continue holding them. They'd been interviewed numerous times and the truth
is they didn't flee. These boys didn't flee. A representative from the Canadian consulate informed the Bellev police of
their plans that the boys would be picked up by their father and taken back to Vancouver, British Columbia. And they
said, "Is that all right?" And they were told, "Yes, it's all right." She then tells the boys, this consulate officer
tells the boys, "It's okay to go." And they leave. That is many things in this world, but that is not fleeing. But the
media reported it as them fleeing, which did not make them look good. So there wasn't enough evidence to hold them.
When they got to Canada, did Sebastian's family believe that the boys were innocent? Oh, absolutely. They believed
they this was an impossibility that it that this could have happened. They believed they were innocent and they
were just being set upon by a police department in a wealthy community that was under enormous pressure to solve
this case. But again, the boys didn't really help themselves at all. They behaved very badly. They used money from
the Rafé family estate to rent and then buy a Mustang convertible and go on a road trip. Yeah. And there was a
memorial service for the Rafé family in Vancouver. It was covered by media from around the world. And the boys were
there and and they decided to when they came out of the mosque to to run to a car and they were laughing and covering
up their faces and it was just a shocking shocking moment. What was so funny, Aif?
I guess you know it was the media that was funny and it was it was the the sheer grotesqueness of I mean these were
people who were literally chasing me down to ask me why won't you cooperate with the police? Um, I guess the sheer
gall, I suppose, of of being chased down at a memorial service and asked questions by reporters who really cared
nothing, I suspect, for my family, for the murders, for anything but getting a rise essentially, out of me. Uh, it just
seemed it just seemed absolutely grotesque. And I I suppose I couldn't help laughing at it.
You know, when I watched uh the clips of of that memorial service, it looked to me like Sebastian gave the finger to one
of the camera crews and they just they looked like rock stars walking into some venue. It was just bizarre. But you know
what's interesting is to some people they actually look like traumatized teenagers. Some people believe that if
they were trying to get away with murder, they would have been crying and acting, you know, upset and uh and
weeping at the grave sites, not acting like like the idiots that they were acting like. Do you think they were in
shock? Well, there was a behavioral expert who was ready to testify for the defense, but but this man was never
called, and he said that this goofy, bizarre behavior is actually common in extremely traumatic events with boys
whose brains aren't yet fully formed that you'll get that kind of behavior. So, no matter what people believed about
these boys, they became clearly notorious. It seems like everybody knew who they were and what they were
suspected of doing. I mean, Sebastian testified that he w he now is almost like the best he and Aif were the best
known men in British Columbia because of all the the media coverage. He couldn't
get a job and he couldn't go back to college and Aif couldn't get back to school due due to the attention of this
case. So, they ended up they rent a house in Vancouver with two high school friends, including a close friend who
ends up playing an important role in this case, Jimmy Moshi. Uh, and they would play loud music all night long.
People would call the RCMP, the the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Yeah. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And and
the RCMP at this point decides, you know, let's open up our own investigation, right? And so they decide
to bug the house that the boys were living in. They also bugged uh Sebastian's cell phone. And uh yeah, and
they they realized that that they were smart boys and that they had to be smarter than the boys. So they used what
they were what was called in Canada at that point the Mr. Big operation. Detective Bob Thompson told us you had
committed the perfect murder. There was no evidence at the house linking you to this crime. And if you hadn't gone back
to Canada and gotten involved in this undercover operation, you never would have been arrested. Do
you think about that? Oh, I think about that often. And that sting operation would prove to be the boy's undoing.
That's next time on Killer Conversation. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound design, fact-checking, and additional
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Killer Conversation on the Free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Did two teenagers attempt to execute the perfect crime back in 1994? Sebastian Burns has been described as the mastermind who used a metal baseball bat to kill his friend Atif Rafay's mother, father, and sister, while Atif stood by. But what was their motive? "48 Hours" correspondent Peter Van Sant talks about what it was like sitting across from these two young men in prison.

What’s it like to sit across from a killer and ask the questions no one else can? "48 Hours" producer Judy Rybak sits down with correspondents Erin Moriarty and Peter Van Sant for revealing conversations about how the criminal mind works.

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

The episode investigates the 1994 Rafé family murders and the confessions of Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé during an undercover operation.

Key points

A Savage Crime Scene. A family is brutally murdered, leaving detectives puzzled and the community in shock.
A Disturbing Clue. The boys who discovered the bodies become suspects, raising questions about their behavior.
The Play's Chilling Connection. A school play about murder raises suspicions about Sebastian's character and motives.
Life After the Murders. Sebastian and Aif live in Vancouver, unaware they are being monitored by police.
Undercover Operation. The RCMP's elaborate scheme to manipulate Sebastian into confessing.
A Scandalous Turn. Sebastian's attorney is involved in a scandal that halts the trial.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

There's blood. They're not breathing.

1:36WatchJun 25, 2025

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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