How Sebastian Burns and Atif Rafay almost planned the perfect crime | "Killer Conversation" Podcast | Forensic Files

Now, a special two-part edition of 48 hours. [Music] You don't know exactly what you're going
to be finding up there. And and so just driving up there in in itself, you're kind of walking into the unknown.
I I believe I was a little nervous. I would describe it as being absolutely savage.
This was someone who used a baseball bat to kill the family. What I see is an attack that is not only
calculated and carried out with precision. There was blood all over the room, on
the ceiling, on the floor. I also see a crime scene that smacks of the murderer having a very, very
personal vendetta. Somebody just went off the deep end and once they started killing they either
enjoyed it or they couldn't stop themselves. In an upper middle class neighborhood of
an upper middle class community, [Music] three unsuspecting and undeserving human
beings were savagely beaten to death. There's blood. They're not breathing. I don't think it's safe here. By somebody
who they knew. [Music] [Music] [Music] It was a plan, a well rehearsed, well thoughtout out plan.
What happened in this house on a hot summer night in 1994 brought tragedy and mystery to this quiet neighborhood in
Belleview, Washington. Just after 2:00 in the morning on July 13th, police were called to a crime that would take them
10 years to bring to justice. Had you ever seen anything like it? Never. James Jude Conat is a senior deputy
prosecutor in King County. He and a team of detectives have been haunted by this
crime and the killers who got away. They think that they are smarter than other people in the world. And I know
that sounds just kind of a broad statement, but I I really believe they believe that
the search for the truth would lead police to another country through a web of intriguing clues. Could this
screenplay that described a murder unlock the mystery? And in the end, would a sophisticated undercover
operation set in a makebelieve world of crime catch the real killers? The story begins with a call for help.
Emergency. What are you reporting? Uh uh my friend, his mom and dad, we think they're dead.
Sebastian Burns and his friend Atifra had stumbled on a horrific scene. Aif's parents had been murdered.
There is nothing that I can imagine about my parents that could have justified anyone to do what was done to them.
Sultana Raf's mother was the first to be killed. Sebastian, what did you see when you
walked through that door? I saw mom lying on the floor. Tariq Rafé was the next to be murdered.
We could see there was blood around him and it it was clear that he had been attacked.
Why do you think that they're dead? There's blood. They're not breathing. Uh there's blood all over his face.
It was basically an overkill. Detective Bob Thompson has been on the case since the night it began.
It just looked like someone had hit him 40 or 50 times. Please fast. Yes, they're on the way.
Okay, they're on the way. We'll be outside. Okay, go ahead. As the boys waited for help to arrive, a
third victim, Aif's autistic older sister, Bosma, was clinging to life, moaning in her bedroom.
The third victim was autistic. It would make sense that she's murdered last because everybody knows that she can't
make a 911 call. Bosma died a few hours later at the hospital, taking with her the secret of
who killed the Rafé family. The Rafes had just moved to Belleview from Vancouver, Canada. Sultana had a
doctorate in nutrition, but devoted her life to raising her gifted son and disabled daughter.
I think she was um certainly an extraordinary person. Do you miss your mom? I do.
What do you miss most about her? Well, the the mere presence is enough, but uh she knew me in a way that uh I
suspect that no one ever will. Um she was always able to look right through the uh adolescent sort of pomposities
that I might have had and remind me that uh I was just uh a silly kid at times. Tariq Rafé was a structural engineer who
had worked on buildings around the world. In a sense, we were all like kids around him or or like my mom was too and
we were all I guess sort of in his orbit. Um he was a brilliant person. Uh probably a far better mathematician than
I will ever be. No one could understand who would take the lives of this quiet family and spare
their only son. Detectives began to look more closely at the crime scene. What's the problem there? There's been
some kind of breakin. Sebastian had used the words breakin to report what had happened.
Is it locked? It's not locked. Unlock. Just looking at that room, you started realizing this. This looks like
someone set it up. Boxes were tipped over, drawers were opened, but nothing appeared to have gone through.
That night, when police asked what was missing, Aif said two things. His disc man and a VCR. Someone came in, murdered
three people, and took his Walkman and a VCR. I mean, it makes no sense. Detectives probe deeper. Who were these
teenage boys who reported the crime? The 1992 93 school year. Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé had been
best friends since high school. What' you like about high school? I liked being a kid. I liked having free
time and I liked hanging around with other kids and I just liked being young. The boys shared a sarcastic sense of
humor and an interest in reading and debate. What would you guys talk about? What
were you interested in? You know, it was things like uh Shakespeare and philosophy and uh kamu
and things like that. They had a lot in common. They became very good friends because they were both
precocious. They were both intelligent. Sarah Isix is Sebastian's high school sweetheart.
He went to parties. He was athletic and he became friends with a Tif and sort of
showed a Tif how to dress. He'd introduced Tif to girls. He sort of helped Tif be a a stud like he was.
That's going back a bit. Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots.
There was a lot of respect in our household. I mean, um, you didn't talk back to my parents. You didn't swear in
the house. Sebastian's sister, Tiffany. We both grew up playing classical cello.
So, we had music lessons and we had to practice every day after school. All right. Thanks.
In 2005, Tiffany was a TV reporter at the CBS station in Cleveland. She can't say enough about her little brother.
He's very smart. I mean, he's definitely what you would call an intellectual. He's so well read. He's got so many
fascinating things to say. Sebastian became a member of the Royal Canadian Aircadets and was given an
award by Prince Edward. A Tif made it to the Ivy League, attending Cornell University. It was the summer of their
freshman year in college when the murders took place. It sort of is like a jigsaw puzzle where
you know you just take that piece and you put it here and you start you start fitting it together and pretty soon you
get a picture. Police took Sebastian and Aif to the station and examine them for traces of
blood. They found nothing. When asked where they had been that evening, the boys provide a full account. At 8:30
they drove to a restaurant for a bite to eat. Then they went to a 950 showing of
the Lion King. But why do you remember them? They were acting annoying, obnoxious.
Everywhere they went, the people who came into contact with them remembered them.
After the movie, they stopped at another restaurant and left the waitress a $6 tip on a $9 tab.
They don't usually do that, especially young guys. Young guys don't tip very well.
But something else troubled police. How could the boys remember so much detail about where they'd been that evening and
yet not recall key moments at the murder scene? The police decided to interview Sebastian and Aif again and detectives
recorded the conversation. I found my mom. What did you do? I I may have gone up to
her. I I can't remember. I don't know what I did. Um I can't remember. Did you go walk over
to your dad? Um, I don't think so. No. Did you touch your dad? I don't think so.
Well, you'd know, though, would you? Yeah. I I don't I I I don't know if I know, but I don't I don't think I touch
him. See, I don't understand this. Aif, your your sister is moaning. She's hurt.
Yeah. And you don't want to help her? Detectives wanted to know why Aif didn't help his dying sister even though he
heard her through her bedroom door. How hurt is she? I didn't know. Okay. You don't know how hurt she is?
I don't know how hurt she is. All I know is that I can't I I I can't do anything.
Sebastian and Aif were witnesses. By the time they left at the end of these statements, were they suspects?
Yes, definitely sus. By the time they left, they were suspects. You know what? I I think you know who it
is. No. I I would tell you. I would tell you if I knew who would did it. And investigators thought they not only
knew who, they also knew why. $300 to $400,000 is about to slip through his fingers if she lives. Are you saying
that didn't go to the aid of his sister because he didn't want to save his sister?
Aif didn't go to the aid of his sister because unless she died, the whole plan came crumbling down on
them. 3 days after the murders, relatives gathered in Belleview to bury the rafes
in a traditional Muslim ceremony. But the only surviving member of the immediate family was nowhere to be
found. They were wondering where's the teeth? Where's the where's the son? On the day of the funeral, the Rafé's
only son was on a bus headed across the border to Canada. And with him was his best friend, Sebastian Burns.
Sebastian and Aif were now in Vancouver, Canada, out of reach of the Belleview police and an investigation that
targeted them for the murders of the Rafé family. Did the boys go to Vancouver or did they flee to Vancouver?
From our perspective, they they fled back to Vancouver. He didn't flee. He went home.
Their sudden bus trip across the border only raised more suspicion even though both boys were Canadian citizens.
How do you flee a country getting on a Greyhound bus? In fact, a representative from the
Canadian consulate informed the Belleview police of their trip in advance. She contacted the Belleview Police
Department to say, "These guys are leaving. They're going home if that's okay with you." and she was told, quote,
"Sure." Mhm. She then tells the boys, "It's okay to go and they leave." That is not fleeing.
It is not fleeing. I think it's to ask permission. Aif and Sebastian both had my numbers.
They knew I was even in the process of getting them a pager so we could keep in contact. And they're gone. They don't
tell me where they're at. They know I'm investigating the murders of their parents. And they're gone.
Detective Thompson was a veteran cop. This is the other. His gut told him that the boys were
guilty, but he just didn't have the evidence to prove it. Investigators kept combing the house.
Is it locked? It's not locked. They found no forced entry. There was, however, an eerie clue. A forensic tool,
Luminol, showed blood on the shower walls. The killer had used the shower before leaving. the person was so
comfortable and calm and collected that he or she might then decide perhaps they'll have a shower before they go.
It is inconceivable. Could that be the reason why the boys who had discovered the bodies at that
bloody crime scene didn't have a trace of blood on their hair, their hands, or anywhere on their bodies?
Are you a killer, Sebastian? No, absolutely not. Did you hold that bat in your hands and kill those three
people? No, I didn't. You're not lying to me. No. Would you have ever done anything, Aif
to hurt your parents? No. The single most distressing thing about this entire experience is the fact
that I would even have to speak out and say, "Yeah, no, I I did not do that." Okay. Right in here. Even without
physical evidence, detectives were determined. They began to build a case against the boys based on their odd
behavior following the murders. They cooperated. They did everything that was asked of them. However, when
they did things, they they had this air or this attitude about doing it. They honed in on their demeanor at the crime
scene and questioned why they sat in front of the house if they believed an intruder might still be there.
He's out on the curb, you know, 20 yard away from the the front door where this supposed killer might be in the house
and he's waiting for the police on the curb. Well, the T7 a cigarette. I'm not sure that anything that we did
made any sense. I I was not thinking in a normal way. Police also couldn't make sense of why a
thief would notice that his discman and VCR were missing. He's walking around the house claiming
to discover the fact the VCR is missing. And ultimately, while his mother and father and sister lay in a state of
carnage, let's not mince words here. It is carnage. He claims to have discovered that the
walkman was missing from his bedroom. And they've decided that my son and his friend are the guilty parties. They've
decided that I believe him to be totally innocent as is a teeth and they have been damned.
Sebastian's family and friends rallied around him and a teeth. I remember sitting on those steps with
Sebastian. I remember sitting on that field. Sebastian's former girlfriend, Sarah
Isac, says she knows his character better than anyone. Have you ever thought to yourself, maybe
there was something I missed about Sebastian that I just didn't see? There's nothing that anyone could tell
me. There's never a moment when someone could tell me something that made me think, honestly, maybe he did it. I
never had to face that moment ever. I know Sebastian. He was and is my very, very good friend.
Did the cops investigating this just need to get home to dinner? I mean, why didn't they follow up the leads that
came their way? And there were other compelling leads. Within days of the crime, police
received a tip from a reliable informant that someone had offered $20,000 to kill
an East Indian family that had recently moved from Vancouver to Belleview. There's no physical evidence that links
Aif and Sebastian to the crime. Their alibis check out and now you get this lead from an informant in Canada that
somebody had been bragging about a hit on an East Indian family in Belleview, Washington.
tells me that's the direction now you should be focusing your investigation since there's no evidence against these
boys. Well, there is evidence against those boys. There was a lot of evidence against those boys and it was all
circumstantial. It wasn't evidence to convict them. Certainly. Is it fair to say that you didn't
properly check out this lead in Vancouver? Um, you know, there are it may be fair
to say that that lead was not fully checked out. You get all kinds of tips that come in
and you have to weigh them. But the leads didn't go that direction. The leads went directly to Canada and the
leads followed we followed those leads to Sebastian and Aif. Why don't you talk to police? But on the
advice of a lawyer, the boys decided to stop cooperating with Belleview authorities.
The minute we went to Canada, Burns and Rafé wouldn't talk to us at all. They were telling other people not to talk to
us. So Thompson kept digging and found what he thought was a disturbing clue from
their past. We started looking through their high school yearbook and Sebastian Burns was uh in a high school play
called The Rope about two kids who commit the perfect murder. [Music] These are words that Sebastian's
character said on stage. Do you mind reading it? An immaculate murder. I have killed. I
have killed for the sake of danger and for the sake of killing. Ariana McGregor performed in the West Vancouver High
School production of Rope along with Sebastian. The character in the play is somebody
who's arrogant and um believes he's better than everybody else. And Sebastian had a quality of being
superior. He knew he was intelligent, knew he's good-looking. What was Rope about?
The gimmick of the play is that there's somebody is murdered at the start of the
play and the villains put him into a box and then they invite guests over. Everybody's at this party wondering when
the last guest is going to show up and nobody knows that actually he's in the box at the front of the play. And so,
um, there's lots of suspenseful giggles all the way through because everybody in
the audience knows that there's this, uh, person, this this thing in the box. He's black and white.
Your character on stage says, "We've always said, you and I, that moral concepts of right and wrong don't hold
for the intellectually superior. The only crime we can commit is a mistake. There's some people who believe those
are words that the real Sebastian Burns might say. Mom, that's ridiculous. There was no time ever during any
performance or any rehearsal that anybody was ever thinking anything serious about any of the supposed
intellectual philosophies in this play or or anything like that. But detectives believed the fictional
murder story did inspire the real life crime. Even more chilling, the weapon was the same, a baseball bat.
Well, that's just a huge coincidence. I think Sebastian was actually mortified when when he realized that he was a
suspect in the baseball bat killings of the Rafé because he said, "Chris, what's
going to happen when they find out about the play?" How does the play end? their superior
figures them out. Someone who is actually more intelligent than they are uh figures it out and they get caught.
As the investigation continued in Belleview, the boys were living well in Vancouver.
With some of the money Aif inherited from his parents' estate, they bought a convertible and rented an apartment
together with another high school pal. I think I'll stay here forever. Jimmy Moshi
behind drawn curtains, they hid from the media who were constantly in pursuit of
them and their story. Hello, is Aif there? 987. But while they weren't talking to
the police, the police were listening to them. Hello, Rafe. Oh, yeah. Every word they spoke at home or in
their car was being recorded. How are you doing? Um, okay. I guess the boys had no idea they were now the
targets of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP. The RCMP applied for and ultimately uh obtained
authorization to do wire tabs. On April 10th, 1995, RCMP investigators intercepted this phone message.
This is Quimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment with Gregory tomorrow, Tuesday, April
11th. Sebastian could never have imagined that he was about to fall into a trap set by one of the most
sophisticated undercover operators in the world. There was no doubt in my mind that yes, Sebastian Burns was
responsible for this and we were in fact going to get a full confession from him.
By April of 1995, Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé were Canada's most famous teenage murder suspects.
I remember a time when we're at a bus stop and someone drove by and rolled down the window and yelled, "Murderers."
That was typical. They were paras. They were hated. I was uh unable to go to college. I was
unable to get a job. But the boys had a plan to make their fortune and live out a lifelong dream.
They started work on their very own screenplay about two best friends accused of murdering a family.
The movie was going to be about Sebastian Barren and a Tifra and the injustice that was heaped upon them as a
result of the suspicion about their involvement in this triple aggravated murder case in Belleview.
They called it the Great Despisers. We were worried that it would sound a bit nerdy because having the word great
in the title sounds makes sound kind of nerdy. And uh if we'd called that, for example, just the despisers,
um that would have uh been more unimpeachably cool. However, we we decided to have the courage to stick
with this nerdy title. While the boys worked on what they say is their fictional story about two friends
falsely accused, they had no idea the real life plotline was about to take an astonishing turn.
This is Crimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment with Greg.
That simple message from a local hair salon was the moment the RCMP was waiting for.
I think they were very vulnerable to whatever the RCMP had in store for them. These were kids who' lived pretty
sheltered lives. When Sebastian was finished at Crimper Salon, a stranger was waiting. And when
Mr. Burns comes out of the salon, the undercover operator just approaches him, what they call the cold approach.
He seemed to me like some kind of an entrepreneur. He walks up to him and says, "Hey buddy,
can you give me a hand? I seem to have locked my keys in the car." So, uh, he asked me for a ride to his
hotel and I gave him a ride. The stranger took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink for his trouble. I
was impressed by that. And um I was also sort of intrigued, I guess, or or excited about the way that he seemed
um so ready to be interested in me. Sebastian told his new friend that he and his buddies had written a
screenplay, but he didn't have a job and needed financing. The friend said he knew someone who could help. Ultimately,
the goal was to get Sebastian to meet with the next guy up the chain, and it worked perfectly.
Sebastian thought he was about to meet a connected businessman, but it was this man,
Sergeant Hlett of the RCMP. We cannot show you his face. I don't think there's an undercover team
like this anywhere in the world. And I say that very seriously. The best of the best. the best.
The RCMP spent months preparing to manipulate their target. They had access to fancy cars, posh
hotel suites, weapons, false international documents, beautiful women. Posing as professional mobsters, the
RCMP set up the first meeting with Sebastian at a strip club. How important was this movie to
Sebastian Burns? It was just about his whole uh life. The crime boss told Sebastian he did
have cash to invest in his screenplay, but Sebastian would have to earn it. Sebastian had no idea he was being
offered work in a makebelieve world of crime. Jobs were also promised to Aif and their pal Jimmy Mioshi.
I hope these guys are solid, man. These guys are never going to betray me ever. All right. Never ever
Sebastian's first assignment, transport a stolen car for the crime boss. He had nothing. And then he was offered
something. He was offered something that was criminal, something that he probably
wouldn't have thought was a good idea had he had something else going on in his life.
He was only paid $200 for the job. And he wasn't happy. He was disgusted. He made it clear he wasn't happy. He uh
told us he could make more money than that stealing his videos out of stores. It was essential to the undercover
operation that Sebastian continue working for the organization. So the next staged crime is easier for more
cash. What I want you guys to do, which is no big deal. It's pretty straightforward.
Uh Sebastian and Jimmy Moshi go from one bank to another laundering money. Cash is here. Just take a deposit into
this account. 20 What are you guys running the first time? Next time a different bank.
This time for a day's work, they get paid $2,000. So cool. This has been a thing. I don't
I couldn't help but be excited about having $2,000 put in my hand and I'd hardly had to do anything for it.
Months go by. The undercover operators take Sebastian to posh hotels trying to build trust and draw him out.
Where are we going? uh went well. We haven't started filming or anything, but our script is uh can
Did you sense that Sebastian felt he was smarter than you? Oh, there's no doubt. He made it clear
and told us that on more than one occasion smart. Tell me how smart you are. I'm
one of the most intelligent people in the world. Slowly, the undercover operators bring
up the investigation in Belleview. Hlett tries to get Sebastian to confess by telling him he already knows what
happened. I know you did it. You know you did it. The police know you. All right. I know
that. Sebastian doesn't admit guilt, but he confides in the mobsters that if the
police did find something to tie him to the crime, he might want them to destroy
it. And he has a very practical theory. As one of the best known murder suspects in
Canada, he is confident that his movie would make millions if he is suddenly proven innocent.
And a film with that kind of promotion because the thing is as it is right now, it's like controversy, right? Which in
itself promotes, right? But this is like, oh, you're heroes. Something goes up to 25, 30 million.
Taking their cue again from their target, the businessmen raise the stakes. They tell Sebastian that the
Belleview police have physical evidence tying him to the crime. Well, I tell you,
they're coming to lock your ass up. Yours and your friends. To make it seem real, Haslett shows him
this phony memo on Belleview Policehead detailing the evidence linking Sebastian
to the murders. here. Just read this piece of The mobsters offer to destroy the so-called evidence, but they need
Sebastian to tell them exactly what happened in the Rafé house the night of the murders.
Well, I want your help and you need my help. So, you tell me what went on down there
and I'm going to tell you how I'm going to take care of your problem. Finally, on July 18th, 1995,
one year after the murders, Sebastian meets the crime boss, Sergeant Hlett, at the Ocean Point Resort, and the cameras
are rolling. He walks into this hotel room and takes off his shoes. He stretches out on a love
seat. It's only then that Mr. Burns lets his guard down and the dirty little secret that he's been protecting for the
last 12 or 13 months starts to unravel on video for the whole wide world to see.
It has taken 3 months of undercover work to get to this moment. Both guys are coming in and say, "Hey,
let's go off your family and get all their money." Basically, essentially, yeah.
and he uh told me the details how him and Tif Rafé did commit the murders in Belleview.
How did you three people at once? Uh not at extremely extremely cold individual. It's phenomenal
to you, man. The next day, Sebastian brings a teif to the crime boss to tell his story.
How does it feel when your parents must pretty rottenly? But it's tempered by the fact that I felt that necessary
to I guess um achieve what I wanted to achieve in this life. That's all the police needed to hear.
Those were solid, strong confessions that only the individuals that responsible for that murder would be
able to sit down and tell it like it was. Cheers. Sebastian, Aif, and Jimmy Moshi are all
arrested. You have anything to say? But this case is just beginning. Sebastian says he's lying, that
undercover officers intimidated him into making a false confession. I believe that if I'd cross them that they would
have me killed Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé, best friends who once dreamed of making it
big in movies, were now behind bars. But no sooner were Sebastian and Aif arrested than the same Canadian
government that set a trap to catch them led an international battle to spare their lives.
We should not be sending anybody back. The case went all the way up to Canada's Supreme Court. Persons who leave the
country and commit offenses outside of the country should expect that they will be punished under the laws of the
jurisdiction in which they committed um the crime. [Music] Sending the boys back across the border
to Washington meant they would face the death penalty if convicted. A punishment Canada had long since
abolished and considered inhumane. We never knew when we were going to be leaving for the United States.
And every time we heard, oh, there may be a trial, you know, next year, then it became the next year. And that lasted
for about four years where we thought that we were a week away from extradition.
After 6 years of legal wrangling, the King County prosecutor in Seattle agreed to Canada's demands not to seek the
death penalty. Sebastian and Aif, now 25year-old men, were finally extradited to face murder
charges. Mr. Raf, you're charged. Mr. Burns, you're charged in the cause numbers that I just read with three
counts of aggravated murder in the first degree. If convicted, the penalty would now be
life with no parole. That goes with the motion to dismiss. They were appointed a team of attorneys.
Representing Sebastian was Terresa Olsen, an ardent, if eccentric, public defender who believed in the boy's
innocence. Of course they didn't do the killings. The the evidence is clear that
they didn't do the killings. Olsen worked tirelessly on the case, running down leads and witnesses.
But in the summer of 2002, the case took a bizarre turn. Guards at the King County Jail reported
seeing Olsen having sex with Sebastian during an attorney client meeting. Shut up. The well publicized scandal
even caught the attention of late night comic Jay Leno. A female lawyer in Seattle is in trouble
for having sex in jail with her client who is a murderer. How creepy is that? Huh? Sex with a lawyer
and brought the trial to a grinding halt. This court had no choice but to appoint new counsel. Sebastian's
new attorneys were a dream team. Ivy League trained Jeff Robinson and Song Richardson.
There is a lot at stake for Sebastian Burns and we will be fighting till the end.
187's a retired artist. They were among Seattle's best and most expensive criminal defense lawyers.
Exactly. Along with Amanda Lee, they staunchly believed in the boy's innocence and
agreed to take the high-profile case at a public defender's wage. They have been essentially judged and
treated as though they were guilty from the beginning when the evidence just isn't there.
What kind of pressure is on all of your shoulders as we approach this trial? nothing more or less than the rest of
Sebastian Burns natural life. They were up against two of the most seasoned and respected prosecutors in
Seattle. I want to talk to him up. Roger David Heheiser would be joining James Conat on the case.
It's not justice. It's the truth. What we're after here is the truth. And I would submit to you that's what
separates our side from theirs. By September 2003, Sebastian and Aif had been in jail for more than 8 years.
Charged but never convicted for the Rafé family murders. You have to recognize that these are
human beings and they have had their lives stolen from them. And to make it worse, they've had their lives stolen
from them to somehow resolve a murder that they didn't commit. The case would turn on those
controversial confessions. Make believe mobsters extracting confessions from teenagers.
Is that allowed in the state of Washington? It's not allowed in the state of Washington.
And I don't think it's allowed anywhere else in the United States under the circumstances that it was done in this
case. Are you comfortable using the results from an illegal undercover investigation
by US laws in your case? This investigation was not illegal because it was conducted in Canada by
Canadian authorities targeting Canadian citizens. It was an investigation that they undertook separate and apart from
the Belleview investigation. [Applause] This case, it's not only about the lives
of my two friends. It's about the responsibility of police and prosecutors to do their job properly and to act in
good faith. And they have not done that in this case. It would be up to Superior Court Judge
Charles Martell. Well, please be seated everyone to decide if Sebastian and Aif's
chilling confessions caught on tape would be allowed to damn them in an American court.
Other prosecutors in other cases with evidence just like that have told jurors just like the ones
that will sit in our case that it's a slam dunk. And those jurors very comfortably have convicted people and
sentenced them to die. And they've been wrong. Judge Martell was about to make the most
controversial ruling of his career. The boy's lives would depend on what he was about to say.
48 hours continues. [Music] Before we begin, just a trigger warning. The following episode contains
references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care. Let's be honest. You've been portrayed
as a monster. Yes. Evil, maniacal, plotting, a murderer. Are you those things? No.
[Music] Welcome to Killer Conversation, a podcast about the criminal mind. My name
is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer. So, I like to think I know a thing or three about killers. In
this episode, Peter Vans and I will take a deep dive into two interviews he did with convicted killers, teenagers who
murdered three people for money and the thrill of it back in 1994. A decade later, they agreed to be
interviewed exclusively by Peter for 48 hours. Did you hold that bat in your hands and
kill those three people? No, I didn't. Sebastian Burns has been described as the mastermind who used a metal baseball
bat to kill his buddy Aif Rafé's mother, father, and sister while Aif stood by. Aif, did you and Sebastian Burns
meticulously plan the murder of your family? Absolutely not. Hi, Peter. Good to see you again. Thanks
so much for joining me. So, this was such a high-profile case. You covered it twice for 48 hours and wrote a book
about it. Tell us how you got involved. Sometimes it's the simplest of of ways. The house where this occurred was about
a mile and a half from the house where I grew up in, this was in Bellev, Washington. and a great source that I'd
used over the years, my mother called to tell me about it and I immediately did everything I could to try to uh land
this assignment. So, from the very beginning, it was I had really kind of a personal stake in this.
I think I know the answer to this question, but I want to hear you say it. What was it about this case?
Oh, man. This story had everything. You've got two best friends. They're young. They're meticulous plotters.
vicious, heartless characters that some fiction writer could not have come up with. The two of them met in high school
in Vancouver, Canada. And in all the years I had lived in Belleview, there had never been an unsolved murder case.
So both of these boys were Canadian citizens at the time, right? I mean, the Rafes were living in Washington, but
they were they were Canadians. So this case drew international attention and yet you were the only journalist who
Sebastian and Natif agreed to interview with. How did you get that interview? Why 48 hours?
Well, first 48 does have a great reputation of honestly telling these stories and wanting to hear from both
sides and and respecting the whole process. But it has to go back to my producers on this one, Jenna Jackson,
Guyian Kosishian, and Nancy Kramer, uh, who lived dedicated their lives uh, this
six-monthlong trial. We had someone there virtually every day. And so they met the defense attorneys, they
developed relationships, they met Sebastian's parents, and Tifs, of course, were dead. Um, and they
developed some trust. And as a Seattleite, that connected with a lot of people. I was I grew up there. I knew
the the area. I knew Vancouver, Canada really well. And I think all of that came together and we managed to land the
interviews. Amazing. I I know what that's like to uh sit through long trials and and gain
everyone's trust. Um so they are both remorseless killers, but so different. Sebastian seems diabolical. Aif is so
aloof. How did you prepare for two very different interviews? Well, in both cases, you know, we had the the ability
to dig into these police reports. We watched the undercover videos which were haunting. We interviewed investigators,
prosecutors, defense attorneys. You know, they all were very open with sharing information with us, and I can't
can't thank them enough. Sebastian was cocky and condescending and people said he was the mastermind and he just would
look at you and couldn't help it but look down upon you even though he's wearing an orange jumpsuit even though
he's the one behind bars. Um I was the fool in the room I felt when I was talking to him and I knew I had to be
direct and really well prepared because he would correct me on any any fact. Aif was his devoted follower. He was a
very soft-spoken intellectual um who, if you believe what investigators have concluded in this
case, he stood by while his best friend in the world savagely beat his family to
death with a baseball bat. So, I honestly didn't know what to expect with him because when you first greet him,
he's very well-mannered, but as you get into a conversation, he loves to turn it
into um verbal combat and he wants to impress you with his with his array of weapons uh with the with the English
language. And so it's fascinating to sit with him and he found that to be almost
a contest, a debate in a way that he in his mind he could never lose. You talked to them separately in the
jail where they were awaiting sentencing. Tell me about that day. It was so weird. I It was a vibe that I
have never encountered in any other uh interview with a killer. Arrogance just filled the air. or no remorse, not
taking any responsibility for these horrors. Occasionally, they would smile in a way that was exasperating. I mean,
I even said at one time in the interview to Sebastian, "What do you think this is
funny?" Cuz he'd have a smile on his face. And so, in that way, it was a real out of body experience for me as a
journalist. Did you ever think to yourself that because of your superior intelligence,
the rules of society did not apply to you? No. And I really didn't sincerely think
in those terms at all. My, as you put it, my superior intelligence. I just like I said, I used to make a lot of
wise cracks. And um no, I I didn't think like that. How would you describe Sebastian in a
word? Uh, I have to use words unfortunately, but he handsome, charming when he chose to be, smart, someone who
could have accomplished great things in life. Sebastian, he became a member of the Royal Canadian Aircadets. And
there's this picture of him getting an award by Prince Edward, you know, and his parents were so proud. Uh, he
expected to be a lawyer in life, he said, because he loved to be so argumentative.
He was raised in a um in a really great home, a very sophisticated upper middle class family. Mom and dad were very well
educated. They lived in West Vancouver, British Columbia. It was a very, very desirable neighborhood. It was a place
where Sebastian and his sister Tiffany, they'd wake up the parents in the morning, uh, on Christmas morning
playing their cellos, you know, a Christmas song to to wake them up. Uh, Sister uh, Tiffany was was a real
successful woman in her own right. She was a television reporter and anchor at at the CBS station in Cleveland and
working her way up in a very promising career. How would you describe a Tif in in a
word? Compliant. That's the way he was with with Sebastian. Aif had been accepted at Cornell
University, which is currently ranked number 11 in the country by US News and World Report. He was impressive and he
knew it. And I know you've heard this many times, but the notion is two arrogant, smug,
self-absorbed young men who saw themselves as intellectually superior planned the perfect murder so that you
could financially benefit from it and achieve the things in your own words that you wanted to achieve in life.
Yeah, I know. It's uh such a compelling tabloid narrative, but like many tabloid
narratives, it's fatuous and foolish and false. And um it's uh that particular line about uh achieving
the things that I want to do in life. I think that if any discerning person looks at that, they will see the empty
abstractions of someone who is trying to come up with some kind of justification
for something that he didn't do and couldn't justify. My goodness, his smuggness is palpable
and he has a smile on his face the whole time. What made these two friends, Peter?
I guess there was there similarities in intellect, but they were the odd couple.
One was the leader, one was the follower. They were both quirky. Um they they gravitated toward each other in
high school. Both were fans of the German philosopher Frederick Nichze who was Hitler's favorite philosopher by the
way. Nietze um had this theory of uber mench, the superman who could impose his own morality, his own will upon the weak
through strength and dominance. Um I think they saw themselves as supermen. Were there any signs when they were in
high school that either of them might be capable of of a crime like this? Yeah. And when we were doing interviews
in in Vancouver, there was a a woman we spoke to uh who was a a good friend of Sebastian's, in fact, a girlfriend, and
she told authorities. Sebastian had told her that he wanted to know what it was like to kill someone.
Are you saying that you are incapable of committing murder? Yes, absolutely. You are. Then how do you explain what
you said to your friend Nazgal Shifty 6 months before these murders? I'd like to
kill somebody someday. I think I'd like to know what it feels like. I think I might find it rather enjoyable.
That was a sarcasm that I made. First of all, I want to be clear. That's not a verbatim quote. Nobody knows what the
verbatim quote is. That was a sarcasm that was made uh at some point when I was 17 years old. I was reminded of it
for the first time just this last March. Okay. Why would he even say a thing like that?
Like who says a thing like that? What was he testing her? Yeah. Look, this girlfriend, that quote
was burned into her mind. She was very bright. And I think that was maybe a word or two off. But note the note the
analysis he has to give us about about it's not exactly verbatim but she was absolutely certain this what it
what what what he said and it also sent a chill up her spine and um but also as an uber mench he could say and do
whatever he wanted to and get this in the high school yearbook Sebastian had described himself as a titan with
furious contempt for the petty strictctures of plebeians And a tif wrote, "Hearing the cries of
the plebs below, Aif descended through the clouds and gazed beusely at the petty struggles of those around him and
laughed." This again, brilliant immaturity, word play used for shock. Okay, let's let's talk about the
murders. According to authorities, sometime in the late evening of July 12th, 1994, Sebastian used a metal
baseball bat to bludgeon Aif's parents and his sister while Aif basically stood by. He may even have been watching at
some points. You've seen a lot of crime scene photos, Peter. We both have. How do you think these compare?
These crime scene pictures were among the most gruesome I had ever seen. particularly Aif's father. The first
picture I saw was of Sultana Rafé, Aif's mother. Um, who would have known that Sultana at that time of day would have
been down unpacking boxes cuz they had they had moved into this new house. Latif would know that. And it's believed
that she was attacked first. Her head was crushed from behind. She probably had no idea that this killer was
approaching her. She's lying on her stomach. Uh fascinating that too that her head was covered in a scarf. And
investigators will tell you that when a killer knows the victim and particularly
if it's someone close to them that they often cover the head because they just don't want to look at the face,
right? And so we move on then upstairs. The killer then moved upstairs and Tariq
Aif's father, 56 years old at the time, he was sleeping on his back uh and his head was pulverized by several dozen
blows at least um investigators believe. And this was as savage a rage killing as
I have ever seen. The third one was Basma. She's 20 years old. Why would they save Basma for last?
Well, she couldn't talk and uh she uh was autistic and the killer entered her room and this
uh turned into a bit of a struggle because she was physically strong and she was running and trying to get away
and was being being hit. And one neighbor heard, and this is so disturbing, what he described as a
mooing sound coming from inside the Rafé house. And we know today, and investigators believe that noise was
Bosma crying out as she fought for her life. When investigators got into the room, they noticed she had defensive
wounds all over her hands. uh her skull had been smashed in and many of her teeth had been knocked out. So this was
a terrifying, horrible, drawn out uh death for Bosma. So incredibly brutal. I mean, one of the
detectives said somebody went off the deep end and once they started killing, either enjoyed it or couldn't stop
themselves. Two neighbors even heard the pounding of the bat. Yeah. One thought they were must be
putting up big paintings because they were having to hit the wall so hard. Why would Sebastian be so brutal about
these killings? This is something that um I don't really have the answer for this one. People
have often wondered and the investigators did on this considering what Sebastian had talked about killing
and wondering what it was like that that this was a thrill kill, right? Uh, we know that Sebastian had
starred in a high school play called Rope, which was turned into a movie. One of my favorite films,
mine, too. Directed by Alfred Hitchcock. The play and his film are about two young friends, much like Sebastian and
Aif, who strangle a friend with a rope for the thrill of it, right? To see what it's like.
And so, there's similarities between what he acted out on stage and what was occurring in that house. Okay, let let's
take a break and when we come back we'll talk about why prosecutors think Sebastian and Aif committed these
horrible murders. The answer is chilling on so many levels. The senior deputy prosecutor on the case
against Sebastian Burns and Aifra Fay called the murders absolutely savage. What reason did they have to commit
these gruesome murders? Well, we know Sebastian had expressed an interest in killing someone someday to
see what it felt like. And in this case, um, Aif's parents, uh, had some money and they had life insurance as well. And
I think money did play a role in this. And uh Aif had this difficult relationship with his father who was
deeply religious and and he had also expressed kind of a resentment of his autistic sister Basma. He called her
gross and said he never really liked her and prosecutors said that he would mock
and he would mimic her in front of her. Um so money that that to me I think is at the heart of this.
I think you're right. And with a teeth saying at one point that he wanted to be able to live the life he wanted to do to
live and the money would would allow him to do that. Right. Right. You asked a tie about his
relationship with his family and his answer left me cold. How would you describe your relationship
with your parents? Um, I we had uh I I was close closer to my mom than probably anyone that I ever
have been or will ever be close to. Um uh I loved both my parents. Um I admired my father. Uh I had we had a I mean at
the same time we had uh all kinds of arguments uh which I enjoyed having and which I suspect they enjoyed having as
well. Um we had um uh I guess uh I mean it's hard to sum up the relationship that a person has with
one's parents because it's in one sense the closest and most basic sort of relationship that you will ever
have. It constitutes who you are as a human being. Um and uh I mean did you love your mom and dad?
Yes. Yes. Do you love your sister? I would have to say that um I didn't really have a relationship with my
sister. And so I think that if I were to say that I loved my sister, I would sort
of be demeaning the feelings that I had for my parents. That is so strange. And he was very
honest about not loving his sister. What were you thinking in that moment? It's it's just a coldness that u that
you know if you dehumanize it's easier to kill. Okay. So the these murders were very
well thought out. Clearly not well enough to keep them out of prison, but there was a lot of planning that went
into these murders. What was the plan? The idea was to be out uh for the evening in a very noticeable way cuz
they went to a restaurant called the Keg. By the way, Keg is, you know, five miles from where I grew up. I I went
there after while I was covering this case, just to have dinner there and see the place. Um, and that's in Factori,
Washington, which is right off the interstate near Belleview. That's where the movie complex was, where they went
to see The Lion King. And a waiter would later tell police that he remembered the
two underage Canadians trying to order wine. So, they did something that would draw attention where they'd have to show
ID, right? Um, and then when they get to the movie theater, when Sebastian was buying his movie tickets, he goes, "Hey,
you like my shirt?" And his shirt had a big cartoon character, some milkman character on it. And and the ticket
taker remembered Sebastian. Yeah. This odd guy said, "Hey, take a look at my t-shirt." Again, he's registering in
people's minds. He's creating a a memory that he was there. and a thief was wearing an army jacket. Once inside the
movie theater, people said that they were obnoxious. They were drawing attention to themselves. They were
talking loudly. At one point, one of them went up to the screen and tried to pull the movie curtains apart. Again,
get everyone's attention. Yeah, I remember those guys. I saw them there. Then after they snuck out, they
committed the crimes. Investigators believe that after the murder, the boys went out on this uh tour of eeries to
try to to try to draw attention to themselves as much as they could so people would remember them if
investigators came to question employees. And their first stop was a diner where they paid with a $10 bill
for basically about a $3 meal and leaving a $7 tip. and the waitress remembered them when they end up also
then going out to a nightclub that that was closing at 2 am and they demanded to
be let in but they were not again people would remember yeah those two boys they
were shouting at us let us into the club everywhere they went they wanted to create a memory with an employee that if
authorities came and remember over and over the police questioned the neighbors in the hopes that they would change
their timelines because for investigators this was a big problem. On one side of the Rafé house, there was a
woman named Julie. And she was a very meticulous woman who every night went through a routine that began at a
certain time where, as I recall, she put in a a load of wash and um and then put
it in the dryer and then she would read for a particular amount of time, usually
even the same amount of pages each night. and she would look at her at her clock and she would go to bed at exactly
the same time. And based on her story, the boys were at that movie theater at the time that she was an ear witness to
the murders inside the Rafé house. When she heard all of this noise coming from there, the boys weren't there. They were
at the movie theater and that is not disputed. So, so she heard pounding at a time when those boys were allegedly
spotted at the movie theater. Yeah. This is before any of the encounters with the waitresses and
everything else, right? She never changed her her timeline. But investigators just simply said,
"Well, we're going to say and we'll say in court that we just think she's wrong.
She just had her times wrong, even though she won't change and that that she was wrong." But it created an
opening for the defense. And there was another neighbor who heard it and believed it was also at the same time.
So Sebastian and Aif claimed they entered the Rafé family home uh at around 2:00 a.m. and that Sebastian was
the first to see Aif's mother lying in a pool of blood. They admit that they never touched her. They didn't even
bother to see if she was still alive or try to help her. How do you know she's still not
breathing? How do you not turn her over to check if she's breathing to see if there's something you could do?
I don't know. I don't know. And I don't know. And maybe that was a really cowardly thing to do. It was just
a reflex. I I cannot describe to you how shocking it was. Just how completely confounding it was.
And there was nothing sensical about my reaction at all. It's been alleged you didn't want to
touch the body because you didn't want to get blood on you because you that would wreck your alibi. It would wreck
the stage that you had set there to fool police. That's completely wrong. I mean, if you're not the killer, you're
you're trying to save that person, right? You don't care if you get blood on you,
right? Right. Absolutely. During the investigation, Sebastian was caught on tape saying that he was naked
when he committed the murders. What's that all about? Well, think about it. If you're wearing
clothes, you're going to get blood spatter on those clothing, and that can turn into evidence. Uh, and
investigators concluded fairly early on, this is just one of the bizarre things.
Never heard of this before in any murder case I've covered that the killer stepped into the shower and took a
shower. And what did investigators find in that in that shower stall on the drain? There were 21 hairs recovered and
they were all from Sebastian Burns and uh and the walls of the shower uh had blood on
them. It was tested and that was Tariq Rafase, Aif's dad. But what killer would step in to take a shower, particularly
if it was a stranger? Because that killer would have known, hm, a teeth's not here. He could come home. I better
get out of this house as quickly as possible. Good point. What killer would step in to take a
shower if that killer didn't know there wasn't anyone left to come home? Right. if if because Aif was there. He
was alive there and he was one of the two killers. So they discover Aif's mother and then
Sebastian calls 911. When the police arrived, uh Aif's sister, Bosma, was still alive. They could hear her
moaning. The boys would have heard her, too. And you asked them why they didn't try to save Bosma's life. Let let's
listen to a tif. Your sister was in the other room. You knew she was injured. You could hear her
moaning. How do you not go in and give first aid? You could have saved your sister's life.
Well, for one, I don't really know first aid. And I didn't even think of it. I didn't even
You're a bright guy. If someone's bleeding, you know how to stop bleeding, right?
You're right. You know that for the average person, it sounds terrible that you didn't go in
there. It sounds like you wanted her to die. Well, I suppose that if I had planned
these murders, I would certainly have rushed in and made heroic efforts to uh save her. Um, unfortunately, I had not
planned these uh murders. I didn't commit these murders, and Sebastian didn't either. And I was I acted in a
cowardly and shameful way, which I felt ashamed of even in the days immediately following and have never since
ceased feeling shameful of. But those were my reactions under pressure, I guess.
Oh, Peter, where to start? It was a decision. It wasn't a decision if he had planned the murders. But unfortunately,
he didn't plan the murders. Is this a confession of sorts? I'm not quite sure. I mean, so in other
words, yeah, I he uh planned it. Sebastian did. I would have done a much better job. Uh it's it's stupid that
that answer is so clumsy and so void of humanity. [Music] [Music] Okay. So, Peter, police focused on the
boys from the very beginning. Why? Well, let's go down the list. You know, they discovered the bodies. The murders
didn't look like a robbery gone bad. They both talked about there must have been a break-in. There were no signs of
any forced entry at the house. There was an overkill situation. No burglar would
do something like that. And cops became even more suspicious when the night after the murder, Sebastian and a thief
were spotted at a local video store renting movies. They didn't seem at all phased by the gruesome murder scene they
had they had discovered. And police were also struck by how many details they remembered about their night out on the
town. Remember all the waitresses and all the things, but they couldn't recall what they did when they got home and
found Aif's family beaten to death. Yeah, they weren't exactly acting like teenagers who were in a state of shock.
So, let's talk about the defense for a minute. The boys and their defense team believed that Aif's father was
assassinated and that his wife and daughter were collateral damage. What What can you tell us about that?
Well, Aif's father, Tariq, he was prominent and active in the local Muslim community and he offended more
conservative Muslims. And how is that? Well, as an engineer, Tariq Rafé, he calculated true east and determined that
all the mosques in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia, Canada, were not properly facing Mecca,
you know, and Muslims must pray toward Mecca. And this is crucial. Uh, and so he said everyone was going to have to
move their prayer mats one degree. doesn't sound like a big deal, but for some, this could be blasphemous. This
could be how how dare you, we you're telling us that we've been praying in the wrong direction.
Um, and Belleview police ended up getting three tips that the murders may have been related to fundamentalists who
wanted Tariq and his family dead. A Canadian officer told them that an informant had warned him that there was
a hit out on an East Indian family in Belleview. Now, the Rafé family, they're not East Indians, they're from Pakistan,
but still the context and the nature of that tip is strongly suggesting that that they could have been the targets.
Right. Also, the Seattle Police Intelligence Division reported that they believed the family may have been killed
by an extremist group called Alukra. And an FBI informant told them that he knew
an imam who ordered the murders and knew a man who said he committed the murders.
He said he even saw a baseball bat in in the trunk of his car and believed that that was the murder weapon. Um, the cops
hadn't even publicized that the weapon was a metal baseball bat yet. I mean, all this is just so intriguing.
It seems like the Belleview police kind of like blew that all off. Do you think it's possible that they just didn't pay
attention to that at all? I believe with all that has happened in the world, this would this would be
checked out. And at the time, I I think it wasn't properly checked out. On the day that Aif Rafé's parents and
his sister were laid to rest, Aif was nowhere to be found, he and his buddy Sebastian Burns were on a bus on their
way to Sebastian's home in Vancouver, Canada. My dad was very worried about what the
Belleview police were doing. He'd called a friend of his who was a lawyer. He told his friend uh some of the things
that the police had been saying to him and it was pretty clear that the police were treating us as suspects. His
friend, who was a lawyer, said if it was my kid, I'd drive down there tonight and
pick him up myself. My dad asked me did I want him to come and drive down that night and pick him up myself after after
he told me that. And I told him, "No, it's okay. We'll catch a bus back the next day." but he was very concerned
that we'd come back to Canada as soon as possible. How did the Belleview police feel about
their prime suspects fleeing the country? This is a part of the story that really
drives me freaking crazy. Um, they didn't have any basis to continue holding them. They'd been interviewed
numerous times and the truth is they didn't flee. These boys didn't flee. A representative from the Canadian
consulate informed the Bellev police of their plans that the boys would be picked up by their father and taken back
to Vancouver, British Columbia. And they said, "Is that all right?" And they were
told, "Yes, it's all right." She then tells the boys, this consulate officer tells the boys, "It's okay to go." And
they leave. That is many things in this world, but that is not fleeing. But the media reported it as them fleeing, which
did not make them look good. So there wasn't enough evidence to hold them. When they got to Canada, did Sebastian's
family believe that the boys were innocent? Oh, absolutely. They believed they this
was an impossibility that it that this could have happened. They believed they were innocent and they were just being
set upon by a police department in a wealthy community that was under enormous pressure to solve this case.
But again, the boys didn't really help themselves at all. They behaved very badly. They used money from the Rafé
family estate to rent and then buy a Mustang convertible and go on a road trip. Yeah. And there was a memorial service
for the Rafé family in Vancouver. It was covered by media from around the world.
And the boys were there and and they decided to when they came out of the mosque to to run to a car and they were
laughing and covering up their faces and it was just a shocking shocking moment.
What was so funny? I guess, you know, it was the media that was funny and it was it was the the
sheer grotesqueness of I mean, these were people who were literally chasing me down to ask me, "Why won't you cooper
cooperate with the police?" Um, I guess the sheer gall I suppose of of being chased down at a memorial service and
asked questions by reporters who really cared nothing, I suspect, for my family,
for the murders, for anything but getting a rise essentially, out of me. Uh, it just seemed it just seemed
absolutely grotesque. And I I suppose I couldn't help laughing at it. You know, when I watched uh the clips of
of that memorial service, it looked to me like Sebastian gave the finger to one of the camera crews and they just they
looked like rock stars walking into some venue. It was just bizarre. But you know
what's interesting is to some people they actually looked like traumatized teenagers. Some people believe that if
they were trying to get away with murder, they would have been crying and acting, you know, upset and uh and
weeping at the grave sites, not acting like like the idiots that they were acting like. Do you think they were in
shock? Well, there was a behavioral expert who was ready to testify for the defense, but but this man was never
called, and he said that this goofy, bizarre behavior is actually common in extremely traumatic events with boys
whose brains aren't yet fully formed that you'll get that kind of behavior. So, no matter what people believed about
these boys, they became clearly notorious. It seems like everybody knew who they were and what they were
suspected of doing. I mean, Sebastian testified that he w he now is almost like the best he and Aif
were the best known men in British Columbia because of all the the media coverage. He couldn't get a job and he
couldn't go back to college and Aif couldn't get back to school due due to the attention of this case. So, they
ended up they rent a house in Vancouver with two high school friends, including a close friend who ends up playing an
important role in this case, Jimmy Moshi. Uh, and they would play loud music all night long. People would call
the RCMP, the the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Yeah. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
And and the RCMP at this point decides, you know, let's open up our own investigation,
right? And so they decide to bug the house that the boys were living in. They also bugged uh Sebastian's cell phone.
And uh yeah, and they they realized that that they were smart boys and that they
had to be smarter than the boys. So they used what they were what was called in Canada at that point the Mr. Big
operation. Detective Bob Thompson told us you had committed the perfect murder. There was
no evidence at the house linking you to this crime. And if you hadn't gone back to Canada and gotten involved in this
undercover operation, you never would have been arrested. Do you think about that?
Oh, I think about that often. And that sting operation would prove to be the boy's undoing. That's next time
on Killer Conversation. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound design, fact-checking, and additional
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Killer Conversation on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
48 hours continues. I think that everyone who knew Sebastian thought that he was going on to do
something interesting with his life. Yeah. people expected him to be a leader to do something interesting and um
I hope one day he will. [Music] Sebastian Burns and Aifraf should have been celebrating at the West Vancouver
High School 10-year reunion. Instead, they had become the class of 93's most infamous graduates.
Prosecutors say just one year out of high school, these brilliant best friends tried to commit the perfect
murder. It was a brutal crime. There's blood all over his face that shocked the upscale suburb of
Belleview, Washington. Af's mother, father, and sister bludgeoned to death. The motive, insurance money.
The boys got away and were living in Canada until undercover police officers caught them on tape boasting about how
they did it. How did you three people at once? Uh once I did that now on the eve of their murder trial, a
judge would decide if a jury would get to hear those chilling confessions. [Music]
I do not find the undercover officer's conduct in this case shocking or outrageous. Although they were
deceitful, persistent and aggressive. They engaged in tricks but not dirty tricks.
It was a controversial ruling allowing the boy's own words to be used against them.
Which first and would set the tone for the whole trial. Just how powerful is the impact of this video of these two
boys confessing to murders? It's incredibly powerful. When I first saw it, I was taken aback. I was
shocked. There are two young men seemingly laughing about slaughtering three people and saying, "I did it."
And while the confessions may be shocking, the defense says they're not true. This case is about what happens
when a presumption of guilt, when a gut feeling that you have the right suspects
takes over from logical and objective evaluation of the evidence. This case is about what happens when you pursue
individuals as opposed to pursuing the truth. Finally, in November 2003, more than 9 years after the Rafé family
murders, Sebastian and Aif get their day in court. The juryy's going to finally hear the
story of what really happened to the Rafé family and they'll hear the story of Sebastian and innocence.
But prosecutors had a very different story to tell. Sebastian Burns is young, thoughtful, charismatic,
manipulative, and most importantly, a killer. A brutal killer. You've been portrayed
as a monster. Yeah. Yes. Maniacal, plotting, a murderer. Are you those things? No.
The state's theory is we want to make the jurors hate these two young men. Essentially, they make it a test of
character as opposed to a test of evidence. And character is at the heart of the
prosecution's case. All rise. Superior court is now in session. The defendants were two young men who
believed they could commit the perfect murder. Roger David Heheiser opened for the
state. Ladies and gentlemen, what you will hear in the end is that it was this very hubris that sealed their fate and
their arrogant and unrealistic belief that they were smart enough to achieve mastery over the police and their
investigation. He zeroed in on the piece of evidence that launched the case and for the first time revealed a startling
flaw in the boy's plan. There's uh I need uh an ambulance. They made that 911 call too quickly.
They're we think they're dead. My belief is that they just walked straight into the house and made the 911
call. The timing was critical. So, we asked Detective Thompson to retrace their drive home from downtown Seattle
where they were last seen that night. Uh 18 minutes. What does that tell you? And 18 minutes
would give them three minutes in the house. And three minutes, said the prosecutors,
was not enough time in the house to find the bodies and do all the things Sebastian and Aif told the police they
did. And think about what they had to do in that 3 minutes. Three minutes to arrive home, pull the
family car into the garage, enter the home through the garage, discover and comprehend that Sultana, Tariq, and
Bosma have been brutally attacked and laid dead in three different areas of that house.
The revelation startled the defense, but Song Richardson was thinking on her feet. asking you, how long does it take
to walk into a house and see these two brutally butchered bodies of a TE's family and then run downstairs and call
911 and turn the prosecution's argument on its head? How long is 3 minutes? Well,
let's see. That was about a minute and a half. But remember, it wasn't just the murders. In that 3 minutes, the boys
also had to figure out there'd been a burglary and that a VCR and discman were missing.
There's been some kind of breakin. I hear the voice of a person who has contrived a story that can only be
explained by somebody who knew very well what had happened in the Rafé family home. I was
out of my mind at the time. I was totally in shock, totally staggered and and confounded and and was
almost totally hysterical. In a case where every minute matters, the defense bolsters their claim of the
boy's innocence by playing up statements the neighbors on both sides of the Rafé
house gave to police in the days following the murders. The neighbors initially said that they heard pounding
coming from inside the Rafé house at a time when the boys have an airtight alibi. You were standing in this
driveway and that's Mark Sidell lived right next door to the Rafes. How loud were the bangs you were
hearing? Um, they're pretty hard hits a little bit harder to hang a a picture. Sidel says back then he didn't think a
murder was taking place next door and figured the Rafes who had just moved in were probably unpacking. I sort of
thought about going over and helping him so they could go to sleep, but luckily that night I didn't.
The Rafa's other nextoor neighbor, Julie Rackley, testified that she also heard sounds.
Initially, I thought it just sounded like hammering. It had sort of an odd resonance to it.
The neighbors who heard these sounds, described them in great detail, and verified what they were for the police
all heard them well before 10:00 at night. And at 10:00, Sebastian and Aif were still seen at the movie theater.
If the jury believes these initial reports that Mark Sidell and Judy Rackley gave to police, your case could
be in trouble. Absolutely. You can't be in two places at one time. There's no debating that
point. There are two independent neighbors who separately heard the murder happen at the end of twilight
before 10:00 and we were known to be on the other side of town when that happened. It was
impossible for us to have committed this crime. Prosecutors contend it is possible. Even
though the boys were seen going to the 950 movie, there's no proof that they stayed. Is there a way for these two
boys to exit the theater without drawing attention to themselves? Say during the
movie. Jose Martinez sold the boys movie tickets that night and he showed us how
they could sneak out from this theater. Go out this exit behind the curtain or the other one over there.
So if they slip through this curtain, you're not letting any light into the theater.
Correct. Then up these stairs and out this exit door. Two doors outside. The defense protested
that even though it could have happened that way, there was no proof that it did
and that prosecutors were grasping at straws to get a conviction. They sifted through Sebastian's history
and his life and a chief's history and his life and tried to find anything that would make them look like bad people. In
fact, months into the trial, prosecutors brought this intriguing surprise witness
from the boy's past who said she had evidence that could turn the case. But first, they would have to convince the
judge to let the jury hear what she had to say. You swear or affirm. Nazcol shift was a friend from the boy's
high school days who had dated Sebastian. What was this comment that Sebastian Burns made that that stood out
at you? He said, "I want to try to kill someone one day to see how how it would feel
because I think I would find it enjoyable." She claimed a late night conversation
she'd had years ago with the boys in her bedroom had planted the seeds for murder.
Did you think he was serious? He wasn't laughing and he said it in a serious tone.
Sebastian doesn't deny having the conversation, but emphatically says he wasn't serious.
It's uh a oneline paraphrase of a sarcasm from a hippie- dippy 3:00 a.m. conversation 10 years ago, and I can't
remember enough about it to defend myself against it. If anyone would reflect on that and think, imagine if
the worst parts of my personality, maybe the worst moments when I was 18 years old, that I would be reminded of them
for the next nine years of my life and that's that in the public's eye would be the person that I'd become. I think
people would really shudder. It's a nightmare. Thank you for your time and your testimony. It was certainly damning
testimony, but the jury would never hear it. There is no question. Had I known about
this last spring, I would have admitted this. Four months into this thing, I can't
stop this process and let everyone dash to the four winds to try and research this.
The judge's decision flustered prosecutors. But there's another witness more powerful and much more damning. Do
you swear or affirm that the testimony? The friend the boys swore would never betray them.
[Music] Do you recognize Mr. Burns and Mr. Rafé are in the courtroom here today?
Yes, I do. It had been years since Jimmy Moshi had seen his high school buddies Sebastian
and Aif. Jimmy had moved to Japan and was living under another name when prosecutors
forced him to return to Seattle and face his friends at their murder trial. He was in no uncertain terms conflicted.
In fact, he spent the last two or three years of his life trying to avoid the eventuality of being compelled to come
to court and testify about his against his two best friends. Jimmy could have easily been sitting next to his best
friends charged with a crime. Back in 1995 during the undercover operation, Jimmy was also a target of the RCMP.
The RCMP believed Mioshi helped the boys plan the murder of the Rafé family and they wanted him to give a full
confession on tape just like his friends had done. You know went on down there in that
house. What went on? Yeah. But no matter how much he was pressed for details, Moshi refused to implicate
his friends in the murder. Okay. You know who killed the parents? Yeah. Who is that one you want? Yeah.
And um I just want I just wanted you to explain to me exactly the purposes of you wanting to know is that so we can
establish this kind of totally for trust totally for trust. Totally. In some ways was Jimmy Moshi the
smartest of them all. He's not in jail. [Music] In fact, Jimmy was arrested with
Sebastian and a interrogated by authorities in Canada. He was told that he might face the death penalty himself.
He was told that his family, his job, his future would be ruined unless he said that Sebastian and confessed to
him. Back then, Jimmy told the police that his friends were innocent. At the time of your arrest on July 31,
1995, were they honest answers? They were answers that I guess the intention of a lot of those answers was to to
protect Sebastian and Aif at that point on July 31, 1995. Why is it that you gave answers that were to
designed to protect Sebastian and Aif? I guess it was also in a way to protect myself. Um, but in general because I
didn't want Sebastian Natif to get whatever arrested and potentially convicted. But under increasing pressure, Moshi
eventually agreed to cooperate. And in exchange, he was granted immunity from charges of conspiracy to commit murder.
Suddenly, he began to reveal more to the police about what he knew. But now the question loomed.
Would Moshi betray his best friends? Had this subject ever come up before, the notion of of Aif Rafé killing his
family? No, this was this was the first time. In a halting voice that often dropped to
a whisper, Jimmy told the court that it was during a drive from Seattle to Vancouver when Aif first brought up the
idea of killing his family. What was your response to the notion of Hatif's notion of killing his family? I
guess I was listening and um I I mean he was my friend at the time and I guess in a way I was neutral on
that notion. On the stand, Jimmy recounted a discussion about how the boys would
commit the crime. You remember which methods were discussed? I remember something about um
gassing the house and I remember discussion about um I guess using a baseball bat.
What do you remember about why uh why a baseball bat could or should be used? I guess a quick and
painless way of killing someone. I don't think there's any question that he was a sounding board for them.
The prosecution says Jimmy consulted on an especially chilling part of the plan.
Sebastian and Natif stayed here at the Rafé family home during the five days before the murders. And it was no
coincidence. It was part of the plan, prosecutors say, to commit the perfect crime. if they had been living in the
house previously that any kind of hair or whatever samples um that were collected after um wouldn't um
necessarily mean that they had done it by virtue of their being in the house for several days. Any fingerprint that
would be found or could be found could be explained as a result of there being there having been there for several
days. any hair evidence that might be found could be explained for them having been in the house for several days prior
to the murders. It's diabolical, but it's pretty clever. Damn clever. Finally, Jimmy gave the prosecution what
they needed. He said that a watched while Sebastian bludgeoned the family. Um, I remember hearing about how
um I guess a Tif was pretty distraught and that um from the moment that Sebastian had
struck his mother that it was kind of a there's no going back. And how hard was it to sit and listen to
Jimmy Moshi's testimony? It was enormously difficult. I think it was difficult for him as well. Um, as I say,
I I am outraged that he did it. Um, but at the same time, I I think I I reserve my
real outrage for the people who forced him to do it. Did you discuss a plan to murder the
Rafé family with Jimmy Moshi? No, we didn't. Never. Why did Jimmy Moshi testify that you
did? because he had a life sentence held to his head. And if he didn't say what the police and
the prosecution wanted him to say, that life sentence was going to go off. It's the first time in 8 years that you
have ever said anything like that, isn't it, sir? Um, I'm not sure. And isn't what happened?
The defense tried to hammer back. Jimmy once lied to save his friends, so he could be easily lying now to save
himself. You're making it up as you go along, sir. That's why you're saying things for
the first time. No, I don't believe I am. Do you believe that Jimmy Moshi is a liar?
Jimmy Moshi is a self-admitted liar. Jimmy Moshi acknowledges that he has lied. The question will be how many lies
does Jimmy Moshi get to tell? Mr. Moshi, this conversation was on. The defense needed to come back with
something strong and they had an arsenal of forensic evidence that flew in the face of Moshi's testimony.
They told the jury that there were three killers in the house that night. Experts
analyzed the patterns of blood on the wall and found drops everywhere except this area where there was no blood,
indicating another killer may have stood there during the attack. They also said
a pillow was moved during the bludgeoning. So we have killer number one moving the
pillow. We have killer number two bludgeoning Dr. Rafé with the bat. And then we have killer number three who has
to remain in the exact same place throughout the entire duration of the attack on Dr. Rafé.
And there was even more tangible evidence, a single hair on Tariq Rafé's bed. According to the police officers there,
this was an important hair because this hair, according to the Belleview Police Department, would tell them who
committed this crime. Did it match Aif? No. Sebastian? No. Sultana? No. Bosma? No.
Tariq? No. We don't know whether that hair originated from someone who sat in the
same seat uh that Sebastian Burns sat in at the movie theater or whether it was picked up by Dr. Rafé at his workplace
or how it got on that bed or if it was a hair from the killer or if it was a hair from the killer.
Prosecutors also added DNA evidence needs to fit a pattern and appear in more than one place at a crime scene.
That DNA profile appeared nowhere else in that house. There was absolutely no other pattern of trace evidence that
could even re be remotely suggested to be related to that hair. That was an isolated hair.
So with the forensic evidence inconclusive, the case comes down to whom the jury
would believe. You're saying the testimony of one of my best friends. Don't listen to that. My
own words on the vide tape. Don't listen to that. Just take my word for it. We didn't do it.
Defense call Sebastian Burns. All right for the jury. More than 100 witnesses would take the
stand in the state versus Burns and Rafé. Could you kill again? Circumstances are
right. Finally, Canada's most secret undercover operation would be exposed before the
jury. And so would the question that had lingered for so many years. Why would you confess to a murder you
didn't do? [Music] At that point, it seemed like the only safe choice. It seemed like the best
choice. Why on earth would anyone confess to a murder they didn't do unless they were petrified?
[Music] That they were actually going to be killed themselves or people they loved
were going to come to some type of harm. The defense set out to prove that the scales were tipped from the beginning.
Professional liars. 1975 I was uh first trained in undercover work against teenage boys. Have you worked as
the primary undercover operator before? Yes. I am frightened by the fact that this
kind of undercover operation can be used ostensively to search for the truth when
it is built in whole on lies and manipulation and threats. Mr. Burns, come on forward.
Sebastian would have to convince the jury to believe him now and not to believe what he said on those tapes.
that I was in way over my head and I did not want to be involved with these guys.
I was upset with myself for having agreed to drive the car. And Sebastian began his side of the story
with the first assignment from the crime box, transporting that stolen car. What was your reaction when you heard
that they wanted you to drive this stolen car? Well, pretty quickly I felt that I've
been tricked. Sebastian, why didn't you just look at him and say, "I am out of here. Walk away."
No, but there is no walking away. You want to know what I [ __ ] uh did my time for? I told the guy when it came
time for court. The person that could finger me, they're not around anymore. Sebastian says he couldn't walk away
from criminals whose power seemed to be so farreaching. I believe that if I'd cross them or if they weren't happy with
me or if they thought I was going to betray them that they would have me killed.
I just assume that you know you with your connections that if I were to you around, okay, I would just assume that I
would wake up one day with a bullet in my head on the stand. Song Richardson pressed
Sergeant Hlett about his scare tactics. Sebastian could easily, very easily have
believed that you and your organization would hurt people if they crossed you, right?
Uh, he he could have believed it. Yes. And that you would kill people if they ever crossed you, right?
Well, I've never said that. It goes to Sebastian Burn's imagination. Let him sit back when he goes home at
night and imagine whatever he chooses to. Is there any time in which your character directly threatens Sebastian
Burns? No, never. The idea was not to frighten Sebastian, but to make him comfortable talking
about murder to other murderers. I know he did that. That's why you're here. Could Sebastian Burns have walked
away from his relationship with you at any time he chose to do so? Without a doubt, he didn't have to
return our calls. Hey, it's Sebastian leaving. Message number three. Sebastian stayed, the defense argued,
because he believed the Belleview police were fabricating evidence against him. I'm going to show you something. You
never saw this from me. That phony memo detailing the evidence that the cops had against the boys.
Here, just read this piece of The undercover operators only offered to destroy the evidence if Sebastian
confessed. You don't say to Sebastian, "Look, Sebastian, if you didn't do it, just say
so. We'll still deal with that evidence for you. We'll deal with it so you won't
get convicted. But if you didn't do it, just just say so. We'll still help." You
never said that, right? No, I didn't say that because up until this time, Sebastian Burns had never denied the
involvement in the murders to me. [Music] Going into the meeting on July 18th, what was your plan?
My plan was to claim to be the murderer that they insisted that they believe that I was. And to be convincing,
Sebastian says he studied newspaper accounts, so he'd know details of the murders.
[Music] First, um, the mother and dad and sister. As the cameras rolled, Sebastian
confirmed the police theory that the weapon was a baseball bat. We use a metal or wouldn't that
um metal and the eerie notion that the killer had showered before leaving the sar clean
blood making and that wasn't the only reason why detectives found no blood on the boys.
How do you uh it's on Facebook and have to shower no blood on you? You do it. [Music]
Sebastian pointed out how he and a teeth would profit from the crime. Whatever money we get, it's like we
would invest it in our film, I guess. And he gave up the most soughtafter clue, the loophole in the alibi.
You uh do the dirty deed. uh turn away and I'm going to get you all the trouble you're in.
I'm flattered. Huh? I'm flattered by your attention. Aif explained that while Sebastian
killed his family, he staged a breakin. What did he do in the house? Ranked out of DCR. You told Hlett, am I
correct, that you committed these murders of the Rafé, the Rafé family during the movie. Am I right?
Correct. That the VCR was taken to also uh contribute to the simulation of a breaking and entering.
That's right. You had the alibi of the movie. The prosecution had another bombshell
ready to drop on the defense. It wasn't the first time Sebastian used a movie as an alibi. You got into a a a
a car collision, didn't you? Yes. Uh you were driving your family car at the time.
That's correct. Yes. I mean, you hit a pole in a parking lot. Did you own up to it at the time?
No, I did not. When he was 16, Sebastian staged an elaborate cover up to conceal the fact
that he had wrecked the family car. Mr. Burns, the reality is uh what you said about doing was very similar to
what you told Haslett you did in this case. Isn't that correct? I told Hlet that we committed a murder,
which we didn't do. Well, Mr. Burns, let me stop you there for a moment. Roger David Heiser drew a haunting
parallel between the accident scene and the murder scene. Back in high school, Sebastian went to great lengths to make
it seem like someone else did the damage while he was at the movie. But the insurance company caught him in
the cover up. And in March of 1992, albeit with this stupid little car crash, what you
decided to do was to pick up the pieces of evidence that were at the scene of this collision. Am I right?
Correct. You put those back in your car. Am I correct? Correct. You took them to an entirely different
location in North Vancouver. Am I right? Correct. And uh you staged a scene in a
parking lot. Am I right? Basically, you manipulated the evidence to appear as though it was something that it
wasn't. Am I right? Yes. And the reason you did that, sir was so that you could say
that this accident occurred while you were at the movies. Am I right? Correct. Sir, you weren't at the movies when that
accident occurred, were you? No. The difference is that the first one is a car accident and the second one is a
homicide. That's correct, Mr. Burns. That is a difference. And the difference is also that in the
first case, I was responsible for the car accident. And in the second case, I had nothing to do with this homicide.
David Heiser wasn't about to let that statement go in front of the jury. He had more of that damning tape.
Can I tell you something? like I I you know I felt like you know I was capable and
like you kill a person and on July 18th of 1995 after you uh told him that you had in fact killed the
Rafé family, you told him that you did it because you felt capable of killing. Right.
Correct. Yes. Did you see it happen? Yeah. All three? No, only one. Which one? My mom.
The demeanor with which they deliver this this message of what they accomplished that that night in
Belleview is chilling. Didn't even fight. Um. Uh. Yeah. Well, that's a story that hasn't really
been told because I think I know that. You can hear a teeth giggling in the background and and kind of going, "Oh
god, oh god." basically uh the father who was uh nothing and curious episode um the sister who basically um
yeah I was standing up and walking around and whatever [Music] your behavior on that tape when there's
some laughing did you think that the murder of the Rafé family was some sort of a comedy
no absolutely Not, but we were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the Rafé family when I was talking.
To a certain extent, I had essentially put the real events out of my mind entirely so that I was really only
thinking of the story that I was selling to Mr. Hlett. That's not part of a story that two
scared individuals come up with because they think it's what two mafia characters want to hear. That's the
truth. That's the truth coming from the mind of a Tifer Fay and Sebastian Burns.
[Music] It's a challenge to sum it all up in a couple of hours. Six months of testimony
comes down to one final argument. There is no gray area. There is nothing in between. Either you must believe what
Sebastian Burn says and every single thing he says or you must convict him. James Conat will speak for the state.
You like your odds very much. Are you ready? Absolutely. Jeff Robinson knows this is his last
chance in front of the jury and he will have to counter with everything he has. How many times does the evidence have to
tell us it's not Sebastian and it's not a teeth before we listen? Please listen.
He points to the bloody scene in Tariq's bedroom and evidence of three killers. Three people went into Dr. Rafé's room
and there are three unknown DNA profiles. Robinson reminds them that there is no
forensic evidence linking the boys to the crime. And the question that you're required to ask yourselves is, what has
the state shown me to make me believe that he is guilty without having one reason to doubt it?
Mr. Konat, floor is yours, your honor. Thank you. There can be no doubt in your mind that
these two are the killers. The prosecution insists it is Sebastian's own words that leave no room
for doubt. How did you three people at once? Uh, not at one. And ultimately, the words that came out
of Sebastian Burns's mouth led to his demise. His hubris led to his demise. [Music]
What would be most compelling to the 12 jurors? Would it be the neighbors who thought they heard the murders that
night when the boys were spotted at the movie theater? Or would they be haunted by Jimmy
Moshi's words damning his two former best friends? Would the jury believe that Sebastian was scared of those
undercover operators? Or is this the picture of a young man who thinks he's about to get away with
murder? For the last time, the jury is asked to envision the last moments in the Rafé
family home. This is the horror that they left behind. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we must not lose sight of.
Finally, it is up to the jury to make its decision. Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you're retired to deliberate
your verdict. In the script for The Great Despisers, two boys are wrongfully convicted and
executed. After 4 days of deliberations, 10 years after the murders, the final act in the
real life plotline. All rides for the jury. We the jury find the defendant Glenn
Sebastian Burns guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged in count one. Verdict form 1 F. We the jury
find the defendant uh Tif Ahmed Rafé guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged in count three.
I did not believe that they didn't have reasonable doubt. I just didn't believe it.
I'm afraid of him. I think he's very scary. And I looked at him a few times and he was glaring at me personally and
anybody that committed a crime like that is a frightening person. I was looking at individual jurors just
to see if they I don't know. I guess I was looking for some kind of an answer. I wonder
how they sleep at night. I wonder how they came to that decision. Back over here one way or the other.
With the verdict that was given, can you sleep well at night now? Yes. Yes. No second thoughts.
No. No way. Not with anyone. Not a doubt. Nope. I personally myself to the very day of
the end of the trial wanted them to be innocent. And in the end, I was totally overcome by the evidence. obviously, but
I think all of us were wishing that some suspect would be guilty so that we could
not convict these two young men. [Music] On October 22nd, 2004, 5 months after the verdict,
good morning, Sebastian and Aif were back in court. Sebastian, anything to say before they
put you away? this time to hear their sentence from the judge. Send Mr. Burns a very clear message that
he has been found guilty. Send him to prison for the rest of his natural life times three. Three consecutive life
sentences. Mr. Burns. Thank you, your honor. Sebastian had his own message for the
court. With all due respect to the jurors, the verdict is wrong. In the audience
were jurors who had convicted him and the undercover operators who had sealed his fate. I
certainly feel sorry for the victims. I feel sorry for their surviving son. This was his only expression of
sympathy. Before I continue, I would just encourage you to consider in a speech that went on
and that's for almost two hours. our jury was made to have. I want to insist today on the truth that
we are innocent. Aif never took the stand during the trial. And I loved my parents. I rever memory
to this day. He used this moment to admit he was ashamed. Your honor, the impersonation
that I gave on those videootapes. Yes, there's no relation is alien to everything that I've ever felt or
thought. I truly admired my father. I was probably closer to my mother than to any other person than I ever will be.
and the memory of her wit and her charm and her keen human sympathy. [Music] They're dear to me to this day.
Mr. Ruffet, thank you. Unlike your colleague, I find you genuinely remorseful, Mr. Rafé. I think the
tragedy for you and ultimately your family was a meeting, a fateful meeting at a
probably a school cafeteria or a school ground. I don't know where it occurred with Mr. Burns.
Judge Martell saved his harshest words for Sebastian Burns. Mr. Burns, you're not immoral. You're
amoral. You are an arrogant, convicted killer. You are not a kid, as you so often refer
to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held responsible as an adult for your premeditated,
naked, vicious massacre of this family. It is therefore the conclusion of this court that you should be sentenced on
count one to life without possibility of parole, count two to life without possibility of parole, and on count
three to life without possibility of parole. those three sentences to run consecutively.
Not going to back up here. It's taken them a decade, but prosecutors will send the Rafé's only
son and his best friend to prison for life. We've been saying all along they thought
they planned the perfect murder. Justice has been done for the three victims and our community has held the
two individuals responsible for this accountable for their conduct. There is a great deal of satisfaction in being
part of that. A great deal of satisfaction. [Music] [Music] Before we begin, just a trigger warning.
The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care.
Welcome to Killer Conversation, a podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48
hours producer. This is part two of my conversation with Peter Vans about his interviews with two
convicted killers, Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé. Burns and Rafé were just teenagers when they murdered Rafé's
family. And they might never have been caught were it not for a Canadian sting known as the Mr. Big operation.
So Peter, Mr. Big, what is that? So, this was a unit within the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, an undercover
unit that would pose as a organized crime family. And they had the ability when they had a target to get that
person entwined in their illegal business, what the what the target thought would be illegal. One of the
undercover officers told me, "Peter, we have never had a target who we did not successfully pull into our organized
crime family." And he said, "I'm talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, they were brilliant at this." And so the there was
the house was bugged and an undercover officer hears that Sebastian is going to get his haircut at a salon in downtown.
um Vancouver and they decide this is our moment to make an approach to him. They'd also learned that Sebastian and
Aif had been working on a screenplay called The Great Despisers. And it's a story about two young men wrongfully
accused of murdering a family. Wow. Where did they get that idea, Judy? Where do you where do you think they got
that? And so when Sebastian came out of the the barber shop, there was a member of the Mr. Big undercover team waiting
who approaches him and says, "Hey, how's it going? You know, I let I I left my keys in my car here. You know, can you
do me a favor? Drive me down to the local hotel. I got an extra set of keys down there." And um and so the adventure
with the Mr. Big Team began, right? They uh they went to a bar and they started talking and forming a
relationship and uh and they because they knew about the screenplay, they sort of used that to to reel him in,
right? Like at some point he said, "I know somebody who I think can fund your movie, who can give you money to make
your film. Let's go meet him." And that very same night they went to go meet with Mr. Big, who they called Al. Right.
Yes. I've met Al. I've uh interviewed Al in Shadow. Um the all the guys on this undercover team were among the most
talented I have ever seen. They looked like character actors out of a Hollywood movie. And uh not long after they they
meet this mobster Al, Mr. Big, he asked Sebastian to drive a very expensive stolen car from Whistler Mountain
outside of Vancouver back to the city. And Sebastian agreed. And after the delivery, Sebastian was paid $200. That
made him anger angry because he wanted a lot more money than that. But instead of
running away from what he thought was a criminal enterprise, Sebastian told them
he wanted more money. Right? This is what remember I told you these guys said, "We always get somebody. They
once they see our world, we we're able to hook somebody." They know their audience, right?
So he and Jimmy Moshi, we remember his roommate. They agreed to start laundering money for this Mr. Big
enterprise and they were paid $2,000 for that. Oh, these are guys that can't get
jobs. They're suddenly raking in the dough. They're going, they're having excitement. They're living on the edge,
right? And Sebastian ends up working for this criminal enterprise for nearly 4 months.
I think we should just clarify that Jimmy Moshi was a high school friend who they were living with at the time of the
sting operation. So eventually Sebastian was asked if he was willing to ready for
this commit murder. The only reason why I'm talking like that, if you follow the whole
conversation, you'll see he's asking me a lot of questions about how does my conscience handle crime. And this is
after he's already confessed to me that he's a murderer himself and after he's also told me that he's worried that I'm
a threat to his organization. He's worried that I'm reluctant to work for them. And it was clear that he was
worried that I was going to tell them to the police. and the only conceivable purpose. I told him at this point that
that wouldn't bother my conscience, but I wouldn't want to do it myself. And he continued to ask me question.
You're saying I'd do it, but I wouldn't do it. You're saying, "Yeah, I'd kill somebody,
but you know, I guess I wouldn't kill somebody." Is that what you're saying we should take from that exchange?
Well, what you should take from that exchange is that I was trying to satisfy him that I wasn't going to tell the
police what he just confessed to me. And I also told him, however, that I didn't
want to do it. I mean, the some Are we getting a glimpse here into the real Sebastian Burns? A man who had
murdered a family and is now telling one of these undercover guys, you're willing
to do it again. No, that's completely not true. And if you read the rest of that excerpt,
Peter, I think that it will be more clear that what I'm telling him there is that I do not want to do that.
So, is it true? Did he try to walk away? Did he ever say no to anything? No, he stays. Uh he says because he was afraid
of what they would do to him if he didn't. But we already know that he is delighted and they've heard on these u
these bugging devices he's delighted by the money that's coming in. So they they tell the boys that um that
there's that they've heard that there's evidence against them in the case in Washington, right? They have a memo that
they show them that says that police found hairs and DNA and blood evidence that's going to that's going to turn the
whole case around. And they tell the boys that um that they can help get rid of that evidence.
Yeah, this is really convincing stuff. Uh this is per very persuasive to him that oh my god, they've got this they've
got this evidence and Mr. big with all his connections can destroy that evidence. But there but Sebastian has to
agree to do something. What is it, Judy? He has to confess to the murders. That's right. And this is very clever.
And this is where, you know, in the United States at that time, if there was an undercover operation like this, you
tell me, would this be admissible? No, absolutely not. Yeah, you're absolutely right. It would not be
admissible. And um and Sebastian is, you know, he's heading down that drain. It's
swirling and he's he's he's losing um control because now they're going to have to tell Mr. Big exactly what
happened to Mr. Big's satisfaction at a Tif's family's home. And eventually Sebastian and Aif are sitting in a room
with Mr. Big. They're unaware that there's a hidden video camera and it's recording every second of their
conversation, picture and sound. [Music] So, this is a first meeting with Mr. Big
and and his people. Um, what did they say? What did they tell them about about the murders? There's no doubt about it.
Sebastian admits to doing the murders and he details how he did it. Beginning with the mother, then the father, then
the daughter, all beaten with the bat. Yeah. The way he confesses on that uh undercover tape is is so matterof fact
and and at times he even laughs about it. You you talk to him about that. Your behavior on that tape when there's
some laughing, did you think that the murder of the Rafé family was some sort of a comedy? No, absolutely not. But we
were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the Rafé family when I was
talking. I was trying to pass off a story. And for whatever reason, I guess the way that the whole ordeal affected
me was to get nervous and to kind of giggle a bit. And I mean, in one sense, I was trying to act casual. And in
another way, I was, I guess, just genuinely giggling nervously. Uh, you laugh when you say Bosman needed a
little extra bat work. That's sick, isn't it? Well, yes. Uh, I don't want to split
hairs, but the quote is actually a little more effort. Uh, I mean, not that it's much better, and I guess that is
just splitting hairs, but at the same time, it's a little bit different. Uh, it's not that's not any better. Effort
is still outrageous. You laugh when you're talking about killing Bosma. Yeah. Well, we were lying. And at that
point, I felt very awkward because I didn't know what to say about it to Al because we didn't do it. And I was
making up a story. And I was chuckling awkwardly because I didn't know what to say. And I was, we had already heard
some of the details in the newspaper about what supposedly happened there. And I was just in a really awkward
position. And I was just kind of chuckling nervously. Sebastian, aren't we looking
at you on this videotape? The real Sebastian Burns, the person who planned this murder, killed these people, and
has no conscience to the point where you can laugh about it. No, that's completely wrong. No, you are
never seeing the real me on any of these tapes, in my opinion. In my opinion, what an odd thing to say.
Sebastian claims he was forced to confess that he was afraid of what the mob boss might do to him if he didn't.
So Aif is there that day and he also confessed. Um they they needed both boys there, right?
Yeah. But Aif claims that he also felt trapped in that moment and had had no no choice that you know if they confessed
the mob boss was going to protect him, you know, and destroy that evidence down in Belleview. Uh, and if they didn't,
who knows what would have happened to them. I certainly had no way of dealing with
the situation other than the one that they that that was offered by the undercover operatives where they whereby
somehow they would essentially magically take care of all our problems. And I certainly I I can say that I almost
enjoyed the irony of making a false confession in order to obtain a true exoneration. I thought that was kind of
neat. Neat. It was neat making up a story about his murdered family. What can I say? And uh like Sebastian,
he laughed when he talked about the murder of his sister Bosma. You have declined to discuss the details
of these murders during the course of this interview. What you saw inside your own house, right?
And yet in front of two mobsters, you laugh about it and you give complete detail about what happened inside that
house. I don't get it. It's easier to talk about a fiction than it is to about the truth. I think in that way, um, I
didn't have any emotional feelings about the a fake story that I was telling. He doesn't ever have any emotional
feelings. Uh, or it doesn't appear that he's emotional. Anyway, to a lot of people, what the Canadian officers did
feels like entrament and coerced confessions. In fact, Sebastian's sister made a documentary about the Mr. a big
operation that got Innocence International to take on Aif and Sebastian's case, but all of the appeals
were denied. At the time when I was covering this and the way it was explained in court is
that this was an undercover operation that was completely legal in Canada at that time. Eventually became illegal,
but at that time it was legal. And here in the US, there was an exception called
the silver platter doctrine, which said that if an operation was legal in the country where it was conducted, it was
then admissible here in the United States. And defense attorneys tried to get the video thrown out, but the judge
in Sebastian's trial allowed jurors to watch it. And on it, the boys confess. Do you think they would have been
convicted without those tapes? I am not sure that they would have been convicted with what the neighbors had
heard of these killings going on at a time when the boys were seen in a movie theater.
Um I think there is hung jury was a real possibility or or an acquitt was a real
possibility. This this was this was the moment, right? Or there may never have been a
trial, right? Those of you who've been listening to all this, what do you think?
Right? If that tape had not been played, um would these boys have been convicted? I
think there's a excellent chance that they would not have been. So, a little over a year after the
murders, they tell these Canadian officers that they committed the murders, but it took nearly six years to
extradite them. Why? Well, at the heart of this was the death penalty. There is no death penalty for
murder in Canada. And the Canadian government said they're not going to extradite the boys until uh the judge in
this case agreed to take and prosecutors agreed to take the death penalty off the
table, which eventually happened. Right. Both boys were represented by public defenders and there's kind of a
crazy story about how they were pulled off the case. Is it true that Sebastian had sex with
one of his attorneys? Yeah. So, I'll I'll leave her name out of it. She's been through so much. But he had
this dynamic u woman attorney that um was considered one of the best in the public defender's
office. She had gone uh to Japan to see Jimmy Mioshi. Remember, he was Sebastian
and Natif's roommate in Vancouver, British Columbia. And uh Jimmy had been accused of conspiring in the murders.
And and he made a deal with the state to testify against his friends. And then he
moved to Japan. Well, Sebastian's lawyer flew to Japan to meet with him. And she
came back. She was incredibly excited because she claimed that Jimmy told her that he felt leaned on to make the deal.
and she was excited that that if she could present this in court, it would completely undermine him as a as a
witness. And I was told by the prosecutor in the case uh who talked to the guards who who watched some of this
unfold, she ran into his uh meeting into the meeting room. Um she gives him this
big hug. She tells him the news. They hug again and then the hug immediately progressed into um removal of clothing.
Um, a guard who was watching all of this called two other guards over and because
they were on a slightly second floor that they could look down and see this window on the door, this small window
could see inside and they said, "Do you see what I see? Okay, do you see what I see?" Yeah, we all know what that is.
Okay, well then let's go break this up. And it's a felony to have sex with an inmate in in jail like that. and uh she
uh had her law license suspended. She was taken off the case and she had a partner who was who was uh incredibly
bright and talented and the two of them were were taken off cuz they were a team. So when these two defense
attorneys come instead of having years of research behind them, they had a few months to get prepared for this and uh
that was devastating to Sebastian and Aif's case. So, speaking of Jimmy Moshi, he had a
lot to say in his deposition. Um, he said that a tie told him that he had wanted to kill his family and that he
was present when Sebastian killed his mother. Yeah. He said he'd been present when
Sebastian had discussed their plans to murder the family. And he specifically said he recall them saying that they
plan to stay at the Rafé home for a few days before the murder so their DNA and hair would be explainable when it was
discovered uh during forensic examination. Part of the plan, part of the master plan. So there was a bit of physical
evidence that showed that there might have been someone else involved in the murder, at least of Tariq. What was
that? Well, there was a hair, just a single hair, found on the body of Tariq Rafé that didn't belong to anyone in the
family or Sebastian. Now, of course, Tariq worked in the outside world, and being at work, if somebody had given him
a hug or anything else, you could see transference there. Uh, but there was also, and this was really strange, there
was blood in the garage that was discovered that didn't belong to anyone in the family or to Sebastian. M
and also then don't forget the two neighbors who testified that they heard a commotion at the house
at a time when the boys were in that movie theater. Right. Right. So Sebastian took the
witness stand which doesn't surprise me at all. What about you? It doesn't surprise me. I'll use that
phrase brilliantly stupid. Uh his attorney said don't do this. We have a chance. there's um some
reasonable doubt in here and um do not do this. And Sebastian insisted if he was anything like he was in your
interview, I can only imagine that the jury just hated him. Yeah, it's it he had that same attitude,
right? He was very put out while answering questions. Um and uh that that attitude
is of I'm smarter than you uh and I'm the one you should believe. So, at at his sentencing, Sebastian
never showed any remorse, told the jurors they were wrong, and went on for nearly 2 hours. What did he say?
Yeah, I was there. Um, this was a theater in the round, uh, one man performance. He talked to the judge
directly, but also then turned back to talk to the people in the room, all of us that were there. Um, he insisted he
was innocent, repeated himself over and over about why the jury was wrong. He threw his defense team under the bus,
called them ineffective. He claimed he didn't know he would testify until the morning of and was
unprepared. That's not true. Defense attorney had had told me that they had urged him not to do this. He forced them
to put him on the stand. He insisted that he had not had his day in court and asked that if he could have a new trial
and represent himself. The judge told him to wrap it up many times. This is what the judge said when he
sentenced Sebastian to three consecutive life sentences. Mr. Burns, you are not immoral. You are amoral. You are an
arrogant convicted killer. You are not a kid as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held
responsible as an adult for your premeditated naked vicious massacre of this family. Of all the mic drops I've
ever heard delivered from the bench, that was epic. If I may say, a touch of genius from the
judge. Such as Aif might say, such irony for the two geniuses whose brilliance and arrogance had turned on them and led
to their demise. Yes. Yes. On the other hand, Aif seemed to get choked up at his sentencing. He
didn't admit to his crime, but he showed remorse for his behavior for the first time. And um I had
interviewed him and things. Uh I saw some humanity there. Um the big question always in a situation
like that is is he sad for what he did or is he sad that he got caught? Right. Exactly. And was it genuine or
was he just terrified? [Music] So they both got three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of
parole. And of course they vowed to fight their wrongful conviction, but they're never getting out. Right.
Well, it's doubtful now. Uh Sebastian has exhausted all of his appeals. Uh T has one more to go, but I I think it is
very it is very doubtful that uh uh that they will ever see life outside of a prison cell. Here's an exchange I had
with a How would you describe what has happened to you? Um, I don't know. I guess we'd have to use
words like disaster and calamity and other things. Um, it's very easy to fall into the rut of self-pity and so I try
not to think on it too much. Um, luckily uh it's very easy to uh I guess think of other things and fall
into a sort of uh unmindfulness of your present situation. And here is Sebastian.
Do you still see the images of of their bodies when you think about the Rafé house? When you think about that Nike,
you still see it in your mind's eye? Is it something you live with? That memory?
Truly, I don't know. It was something that was very much with me for I know the first year after it happened.
Um especially with the first few weeks. Um it's been 10 years now and so and a lot of ways I'm over it.
Why do you think they never turned on each other? I still believe that they believe and
this is what has sustained them all these years is that one day they will outsmart the system on appeal.
They're down to their last one for a could ever have turned on Sebastian his his idol and his mentor.
Right. So today they're both 49 years old. They're still in custody in the Monroe Correctional Complex. A Tif was
married in in 2017, but is now divorced. Not surprisingly, he seems to have been
or is a model prisoner, studying and teaching and writing papers and articles. Um, all we know about
Sebastian is that his parents visit him once a month and according to them, he spent 10 years in solitary confinement.
Well, Peter, we could go on forever, but we won't. Yeah, somebody wrote a book about it.
Yes, you did. That my relatives bought. Perfectly executed is the book. I wrote it with
Janet Jackson, one of the producers. All right. Thank you again. Yeah. And thanks for reliving this with
me. It is It is one of the most extraordinary cases of my career and one I'll carry with me forever.
I can see why. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound design, factchecking, and additional
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus.

What happened to the Rafay family one summer night in 1994 brought tragedy and mystery to a quiet neighborhood in Bellevue, Washington? Join "48 Hours" correspondent Peter Van Sant in the "Killer Conversation" podcast.

Crime. Social justice. Impact. "48 Hours" investigates the most intriguing crime and justice cases that touch on all areas of the human experience including greed and passion. "48 Hours," which premiered in 1988, has developed a rich history of original reporting and impact journalism that has helped exonerate wrongly convicted people, caused cold cases to be reopened and solved, and along the way changed lives.

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Brief Summary

Teenagers Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé brutally murdered Rafé's family in 1994, later confessing during an undercover sting operation.

Key points

The Rafé Family's Tragic Night. On a summer night in 1994, a horrific crime unfolds in a quiet neighborhood.
The Great Despisers. Sebastian and Aif write a screenplay about their lives as murder suspects.
Confession Unraveled. Sebastian confesses to the murders during a meeting with an undercover officer.
The Interview with a Killer. The journalist describes a surreal interview filled with arrogance and no remorse from the killer.
The Brutality of the Murders. Details emerge about the gruesome nature of the killings, shocking even seasoned investigators.
Aif's Cold Confession. Aif admits to not having a relationship with his sister, revealing a chilling detachment.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I saw mom lying on the floor.

4:20WatchJul 10, 2025

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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