Killer Conversation | Full "48 Hours" Podcast | Forensic Files

Shooting's been a a hobby for me for at least the past 33 years. It helps you think in a way that is
tactical and practical as well. >> Personal security of course has always been a concern,
especially as a prosecutor. >> All rise. >> My name is Ron Dur. I'm a deputy prosecuting attorney for Snowish County.
>> I'm trying the Jerry Jones case now for the third time. The case has spanned approximately 17 years of my career.
>> This is um a shocking scene, I think, even to the veteran police officers who
responded. >> I'm Joe Ward. I'm a homicide detective for the Snomish County Sheriff's Office,
and I was here 17 years ago to investigate the murder of Lee Jones. Mrs. Jones had received a lot of
injuries to her body. She had over 60 wounds, slashes, stabs. >> She's in the bathtub while she is being
killed. And she is vocal. She is yelling. She is screaming. She is battling her asalent. It looked like she
had fought for her life in that room and lost. [Music] Jerry Jones says he heard a noise and
responded and found his wife stabbed. And as he found her, someone brushed by him and pushed him against the wall and
cut his hand. Jerry's story is unbelievable. [Music] Detective Ward begins to realize that it
just doesn't add up and that he has the the murder suspect right in front of him.
It was a great relief to to get that first guilty verdict in this case. We have the Ninth Circuit deciding that
it was a weak circumstantial case and uh that it should be retrieded. It's 2001. We did it the second time.
The jury find the defendant Jerry Har Jones guilty of the crime of murder first charge after
a ver that was extremely satisfying one that uh I hoped meant the end of the case
the court of appeals of the state of Washington reverses us again I'm quite angry and embittered by what the court
of appeals has done as a prosecutor there are certain cases that resound in your consciousness that
that affect you on some emotional level. This was one of them. So I was not looking forward to
visiting that place yet again. I came the dawn. Round three. >> Opening statement from the defense, Mr.
Jones. >> Thank you, your honor. >> This trial had a strange twist as the murder defendant acted as his own
attorney. I've decided to represent myself. >> He just keeps coming back. >> Nobody knows the case better than I do.
>> It's almost as though he and I were meant to show up in the same courtroom and fight this thing out.
Defending your life. [Music] I loved my mother very much. And if I had any doubt whatsoever
that my dad might have done it, I wouldn't be standing by him like this. for almost 17 years.
>> My sister and I can come down this evening. >> Kim Jones and her younger sister Beth.
>> Our other interview starts at about 6. >> Have been on a mission. >> There's no way that he did this.
>> Trying to prove their father, Jerry Jones Jr., >> no, this is wrong. >> Is innocent of brutally killing their
mother, Lee. >> Has there ever been a moment where you've said, "Maybe dad did do this."
No. >> No. >> You have to know my dad. >> No. >> My dad is a very peaceful man. >> He never even raised his voice at anyone
in the family. >> Jerry, how you feeling? >> I'm feeling great. >> 48 hours began following this story in
1999 when Jerry Jones was released from prison for the first time. >> This is a dream come true
>> after an appeals court ruled his lawyer was ineffective. My dad deserves freedom
just like everybody else. >> His release marked the beginning of an incredible legal drama.
>> In 2001, Jerry Jones was retrieded and reconvicted. And then, remarkably, an appeals court reversed that conviction
because the jury didn't hear crucial evidence. Now, Jones and his daughters are back for round three. And this time,
Jones will be represented by the man he says knows this case better than anyone himself.
>> All rise. Court is again in session. >> Do you have any legal training at all?
>> No, I don't. >> Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, >> if they can get a feel for me as a human
being, then they'll be convinced that I am not capable of murdering anyone. The evidence will tell you that I loved my
wife. >> He'll be going toe-to-toe with the man who has prosecuted him twice before.
>> Please listen carefully to the evidence in the case. >> Ron Dersh. >> We do our best to make sure that
murderers don't get away with murder. >> The prosecutor will be unable to prove to you
that I murdered Lee for one very simple reason. I did not do it. And to ensure a fair
verdict, this jury won't hear about Jerry Jones's earlier trials or convictions.
>> I'm not perfect. I've made mistakes, but I'm not a murderer. >> I'd give anything if I could have her
back right now. [Music] >> It was Lee's beauty that first caught his attention back in 1970. I
encountered the most gorgeous creature I'd ever laid eyes on in my life. When Jerry was stationed in Vietnam serving
in the Air Force, >> she had these beautiful brown eyes and the most gorgeous smile you've ever
seen. And for me, it was just love at first sight. >> They married in Vietnam and their first
child, Kim, was born there. Within months, Jerry's tour ended and Lee left her family behind and moved to
the US to start a new life. >> Two more children are born. >> Mhm. Beth and Thomas.
>> Yes. >> Jerry retired after 20 years in the Air Force. And the family moved to Buffalo,
Washington, just outside Seattle. >> They were just in the prime of their marriage.
>> Look at those love birds. Oh, that's sweet. >> They were always hugging each other.
They were always kissing and just they were very close and very happy. >> Jerry became a successful pharmaceutical
salesman. Lee was a busy housewife raising three children. Everything in our home was encouraging and positive.
>> These are the last pictures of Lee taken at a Thanksgiving celebration. 9 days later, she would be stabbed 63
times in the family bathtub. >> When my wife needed me the most, I couldn't do it. I couldn't help her.
On the night of December 3rd, 1988, Jerry and Lee were at home with four-year-old Thomas. According to
Jerry, Lee had put their son to sleep, then went to the hallway bathroom to take a bath.
Jazz music was playing from a radio in Jerry's study. He was across the hall in the master bedroom. His shower was
running in the adjoining bathroom. >> I heard this horrible scream, one loud, piercing scream. I'd never
heard anything like that before in my entire life. >> Jerry says he raced towards the bathroom
door. >> This is happening so quickly, so fast. You start perceiving that something is
coming out. And as I'm moving closer to the doorway, you see more and more. And it's a knife.
>> Jerry remembers colliding with an intruder and reaching for the knife. >> And in the process, I suffered some
cuts. I'm knocked back. I hit my head against the wall. Boom. Fall to the floor. And I'm seeing these black and
white flashing lights. And when I got up, there was nobody in the hallway any longer.
They immediately went into the bathroom. And I encountered the most horrible situation I've ever seen in my life.
>> 911, what do you have? Hurry. Uh, my wife, she has been stabbed repeatedly. >> I find my wife in the tub and she is
struggling. I said, "My godly, what happened?" She was trying to speak. I'm convinced of that. I can recall this
this chattering sound of her teeth. Can you tell me where she's stabbed? >> All over.
>> Okay. Is there a knife in her anywhere? Do not remove the knife. >> Her eyes were wide open and she was
looking right at me and I realized that she was losing her physical life very rapidly.
>> Will you help me help her? >> I'll try. What can I do? >> Is she breathing? >> I don't think so, ma'am. I think she's
dead. Amid this blood and chaos, Thomas woke up. >> I went upstairs and I found my mother.
She was in the bathtub and uh was bloody. No father on this earth would want his
son to see his mother in that condition. It was one of the most violent murders I've ever seen. She was viciously
attacked and she fought for her life. These are all scene photographs taken the night of the investigation.
>> Detective Joe Ward was the lead investigator. >> All I could see was that I had a wet and
bloody man with a hand wrapped in a towel and a dead wife in the bathroom. >> I think they had already made up their
mind. Lee is dead. Jerry's at home. Case is closed. >> We don't have any witnesses that saw
anybody run from the house. We don't have any DNA. There's really an absence of any evidence of an intruder.
>> Jerry, did you murder your wife, Lee Jones? >> No, I didn't. Peter, they didn't do an
investigation that night, and within 2 hours, I found myself under arrest for something I didn't do.
>> Making an arrest that night without talking to anybody else other than my dad was a very big mistake. I'm the one
who knows what happened on that December night better than anyone else. >> As daughters Kim and Beth listen to
their father's opening statement, they know this third trial may be his last. >> There was no reason, no motive
>> and his best chance to prove. >> It was an intruder who did it. >> Someone else murdered Lee Jones. You
will hear that a disturbed teenage neighborhood boy committed this awful crime. I think he's desperate.
Too sure the finger is pointed elsewhere. [Music] [Music] I lived in the shadow of the L, the uh
the J train. It ran about 10 ft from my window. My mom and dad owned a delicatess there
for about 35 years. This Queens, New York neighborhood is a long way from Everett, Washington.
But for prosecutor Ron Dur, there's a close connection. I think that Ron saw Lee Jones as
someone similar to his mom. >> Mara Rosano is Ron's wife and also a prosecutor. >> His mom was someone very special in his
life. >> My mother was an immigrant and she always spoke with heavily accented English. She was about 5'4 and uh
her name was Elizabeth and everyone called her Leah. and he's determined to get justice for
Lee Jones. >> Here's the old case file, >> even after all these years. >> This is all Jerry Jones.
>> These are all his. Well, there's no doubt I'm sick of the case. Not sick enough to let him go.
[Music] >> As prosecutor Ron Dur begins his case, he's feeling the pressure. He's won
hundreds of trials, but now faces the possibility of professional humiliation. What if Jerry Jones, a self-taught
lawyer wannabe who Dur has convicted twice before, wins this case? >> That'd be a hard one to swallow, would
it? That'd be tough. Is Jerry a good attorney? >> I think he is. He's He's done a lot better than all I
have on occasion. Let's take you back to December 3rd of 1988. >> Dur believes his opposing council is in
fact his best evidence. >> The strongest piece of evidence is Jerry Jones. He is still here. He is still
alive. Her autopsy will show that. He tells the jury about Lee's defensive wounds, the blood spatter in the
bathroom, and the cuts on Jerry's right hand that Jerry says were caused by the intruder.
>> They're consistent with a defensive move on my part to knock the knife out of his
hand when I encountered him in the hallway. >> Showing you exhibit number 121. But a
forensic expert testifies the cuts more likely occurred when Jerry's hand slid off the knife handle.
>> How? >> Blood on the hand of the asalent can be transferred to the handle of the knife,
making it slippery. >> As he allegedly stabbed Lee dozens of times >> report, >> Jerry counters with his own expert.
>> It's a cut. That's all you can say. >> My fingerprints were not on the knife.
My blood was not on the knife. and my DNA is not on the knife. How on earth is it possible to stab someone 63 times
and yet leave no physical evidence whatsoever? >> I think that he rinsed off the handle of
that knife. I think he was fully aware that uh there would be some testing, fingerprint or otherwise.
>> The jury also hears that Jerry let crucial minutes pass. 3 5 minutes. >> 911. Where do you hurry?
>> Before calling 911. >> Let me give you a >> Jerry Lee is in the tub bleeding to
death. And you still haven't called 911. >> I don't get it. >> I don't get it either.
>> But Ron believes he knows why. In the midst of everything, four-year-old Thomas comes upstairs.
>> And not just once, but several times, as far as we're able to tell. And at this
point, uh, Jerry's hands are already full. He's got a dying woman. He's got cuts on his hands. And here comes his
kid. >> Jerry takes Thomas back to his bedroom. >> If you didn't kill Lee, why in the world
would you have taken your young son, back downstairs, and left him there when you don't know
whether or not the killer is still in the house? Well, Peter, you're presuming, of
course, that I'm thinking clearly, coherently, and logically at this point in time.
>> There is no intruder in the home, and there never was. The killer is Jerry Jones. He knows
Thomas is safe downstairs. >> Thomas comes upstairs again. This time, Jerry takes his son to Graham Smith, his
next door neighbor. >> As I open the door, uh Jerry was there on the porch. The judge has asked us to
not show the faces of some witnesses. >> Jerry said that he was watching TV. He was hit over the head and when he came
to he found Lee leading and stabbed. >> You tell your neighbor that you were struck on the head while watching TV.
You tell the police that you collided with the intruder. Two separate stories. >> I didn't tell two different stories. My
response to him was, "I hit my head and when I got up, I found Lee bleeding all over."
It is only after he returns home that Jerry finally calls 911. >> Yes, my wife. >> What's the address?
>> 190 160. >> But he gives them the wrong address. >> You're going to have to help me because
we have a conflict with your address. Lead investigator Joe Ward believes Jerry's mistake was intentional.
>> I think that's just another part of his plan to delay the response to the house
just to make sure that his wife was dead. >> It took the police 10 minutes to find
the house. And when they went inside, they discovered Jerry wet and bloody. A forensic scientist testifies to
scenarios of how the crotch area of Jerry's jeans became stained with Lee's blood.
>> One potential would be if the rail of a bathtub in this crime scene had been saturated with blood and an individual
sat on that rail. The other object that I know is long and narrow and bloody is the limbs, the arms and legs of Lee
Jones. >> I think at some point he is sitting on her to hold her down. sitting on her while he's stabbing her.
>> Yes. >> Not true, says Jerry Jones. >> I loved her. I did not murder my wife. I
could not do it. There was no reason for me to do it. >> In fact, Jerry says if he wanted Lee
dead, he had his chance right here in their bedroom. It was during a rough period in their marriage when the couple
separated, Lee attempted suicide, overdosing on sleeping pills. Jerry found her and rushed her to the
emergency room. >> Their separation was the best thing that ever happened to them. They really
realized how much they appreciated each other. >> Look at those love birds. Oh, how sweet.
>> The couple soon reconciled. >> In the last year um before my mom died, they were very close.
>> Marriage was perfect maybe for him. But Lee's friends, Barbara Sleeper and Mary McNotton, say
right before she was murdered, Lee was looking for a way out. >> Jerry and his daughters can say anything
they want to. He can talk about how in love he was and that they, you know, were reunited and everything else, but I
knew that she wanted to get divorced. >> Isn't it possible that Jerry Jones is innocent?
>> I I don't see how it's possible. But Jerry Jones insists he knows who really killed Lee.
>> President, if you would raise your right hand, >> and he's about to put him on trial.
[Music] >> You think you'll see Busby today? >> Probably. You looking forward to that?
>> Not looking forward to that. No, >> Paul rise calls Daniel Busby. >> We're not allowed to show his face.
>> Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth? So help you God. >> I do. >> But for more than 16 years, Jerry Jones has insisted this man is his wife's real
killer. >> Danny Busby did it, Peter. There's no doubt in my mind about that. Do you have
a mouth on you back there? >> Yeah, >> you wise ass. >> Yeah. >> Prosecutor Ron Dersh says there is no
evidence that Danny Busby, then a 15-year-old teenager, was involved. >> On December 3rd of 1988,
did you murder Lee Jones in her house in Boston? >> No. >> There is no connection basically between
Danny Busby and the crime scene that night. All the DNA evidence tends to exclude Danny Busby,
>> but Ron knows Danny's tough guy presence will vastly complicate his case. >> Chew a gun there.
>> Yeah. >> Can you swallow that? >> No. >> He's kind of a loose cannon, and I'm
concerned about that. >> At the time of Lee's murder, Danny was a friend of Beth Jones.
>> I knew he had a crush on me, >> a neighborhood loudmouth. He was always the one that would initiate something
troublesome >> who liked to tease Thomas, >> growling at him like a lion or tiger and
just scaring him >> and antagonize Lee. >> He appeared to us to be just an obnoxious teenage boy. We know that he
has grown and developed into a very disturbed, vicious, uncaring, brutal person. Now, for the first time in three
trials, Jerry Jones is allowed to tell the jury about Danny Busby's troubled past, a history of violence that Jerry
says began the night that Lee died. He'll directly confront Busby about his assaults against ex-girlfriends and
threats to kill people. It's evidence that Jerry Jones hopes will convince the jury that Danny Busby is capable of
murder. >> Mr. Mr. Do, do you have any questions, Mr. Busby? >> I do. >> I think we're going to be allowed to
paint him as the monster that he is. >> Would you describe yourself as prone to violence?
>> I have been in the past. >> Was it common for you to become so angry that you would lose control and black
out? >> Slightly. >> What's it like for you to look into Danny Busby's eyes? >> I see a disturbed person, a violent
person, a person almost without a soul. And would you describe yourself as having an uncontrollable temper
>> at times? Yeah. >> Jerry says it was that uncontrollable temper that exploded after Lee banned
Danny from visiting and calling Beth. >> But you continued calling Beth, did you
not? >> Probably. >> You continued to come to the house asking for Beth, didn't you?
>> It's quite possible. Jerry claims that an enraged Dany was looking for Beth the night of the
murder, but found Lee instead. And he viciously stabbed and slashed and attacked her over and over and over
again that night. >> The problem with your allegation is that there's no physical evidence that Busby
was at your home. There's no witness that places him there. >> I think there is. I think there is. I
think Thomas was awakened by a growling sound. >> Do you recall ever growling at Thomas
like a lion or a tiger to frighten him? >> I don't recall. >> Are you saying that never happened?
>> No. Saying I don't recall. >> Danny Busby growled at Thomas >> prior to going upstairs and murdering
Lee. And he is the only person who ever growled at Thomas. Ron Dur believes if there were any growling sounds that
night, they came from Jerry himself. >> Is there growling going on? Is Jerry Jones grunting or growling while he's
stabbing Lee? This is hard work. You take a look at those autopsy photos. This is hard work. This is not easy
stuff to do. >> Then there's Busby's long history of violence against his girlfriends.
>> Did you begin physically abusing Crystal? >> Yeah. Did you punch Vandra on the
shoulder numerous times? >> Yeah. >> Did you throw Joey to the ground? >> No, I pushed her.
>> Your honor, I have no further questions at this time. >> Things get even worse for the
prosecution as those former girlfriends take the stand. >> You solemnly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So help you God. >> We can't show their faces.
>> He was both verbally and physically mean. He could be kind and fun one minute and then freak out.
>> He would just kind of snap and change personalities. He'd be so furious. >> They're very sympathetic people. There's
just no question that he has put them through hell. >> He gave me a black eye. >> He started kicking the crap out of me.
>> Pretty much attacked me and spit in my face. >> But Ron Dersh says Jerry is using Danny
Busby as a convenient scapegoat. Remember that when we look at what Danny Busby's done as an adult, he has not
attempted to murder anyone >> on any occasion. Did he, in your opinion, seriously try to kill you?
>> No. >> He has not physically stabbed or assaulted anyone in the way that we have
in this case. >> Danny never threatened you with a knife or any kind of weapon, did he?
>> No. >> And the challenge is going to be to draw that line between Danny Busby as a
15year-old and Danny Busby as an adult. Did he once tell your mother that she was dead?
>> Yes. >> And has he also threatened to rape your mother? >> Yes. >> If the jurors decide that Danny Busby is
volatile enough to have done this, then the case is lost. >> All rise. >> Defense calls next witness.
[Music] Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth? So help you God. >> Yes, I do. >> All of them wanted to be there. >> I do.
>> All of them wanted to testify. >> Yes, I do. >> All of them wanted to tell their
stories. >> And all of them want to help free their father. To do that, Jerry is counting on
their testimony to put then 15-year-old Danny Busby at the crime scene in December 1988.
Were you ever present when Danny Busby would growl at Thomas like a lion or a tiger?
>> Yes, he did that very frequently. >> Did he ever growl at you? >> I think so. Yes. What asked Jones, did
Thomas hear on the night his mother was murdered 16 years ago when he was just four years old?
I remember it being more animallike than that. >> He said he woke up when he heard
growling noises and that a lion or a tiger got mom. >> He was repeating a lion or tiger had
gotten mom. >> While I'm watching them testify, I'm thinking, you know, this is amazing.
These people are flawless. They are polished. They are rehearsed. You think to yourself, "Damn it, wise
up." >> While Beth, Kim, and Thomas lovingly stand by their father, Jerry Jones knows
that it is his testimony and not his children's that jurors really want to hear. So, as his own attorney, he
decides to take the stand and come face to face with Ron Dur. A confrontation 16
years in the making. [Music] Once I knew that the case was coming back, it was clear to me that there
would be some sort of face off. >> I don't look at it as a match between Ron Dur and myself.
>> The defense would call Jerry Jones, your honor. >> I look at it as an opportunity to
present the evidence to a jury of 12 people. >> Solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, >> and prove my innocence. But before Ron faces Jerry, >> Jerry, did you kill your wife?
>> I did not kill my wife. >> A public defender assigned by the court to advise him asked Jones to explain his
bizarre behavior after he discovered Lee had been stabbed. >> Did you at any point that evening go and
get wet? >> Yes. >> How did you do that? I ran into the master bedroom and heard the water running in the shower
and I went to turn it off and I felt a sting on my hand >> and I looked and saw that it was
bleeding and I just ran back out. >> That's not the story Jerry told at his first trial.
>> Cross-examination. >> Yes, sir. Thank you. >> Ron believes he's caught Jerry in a lie.
He whips out the transcripts and reads Jerry's own words back to him. >> I open the shower door and instead of
reaching in and turning the shower off, I step inside. Clothes and all, I let the water run
from the top of my head down the front of my body. You're called testifying to that effect in 1989.
>> If if that's what it says, that's obviously what I testified to. >> I have no further questions. After just
a handful of questions, Dur retreats. >> I was amazed at how few questions Ron Dur asked me. I believe he was fairly
convinced that he had lost the trial. >> I expected you to take off the gloves that this was going to be a bare knuckle
confrontation with Jerry and it seems like he played a little patty cake. Was that a strategy?
Were you Did you choke? I couldn't get mad at him at that point. Just because I have a stick to hit him with doesn't
mean I'm going to hit him with it. >> But Ron uses that stick in his closing statement.
>> Exhibit one for the state is Jerry Jones because he is still here. He is still
alive. Danny Busby is as subtle as a brick through a plate glass window. Do you think having listened to Danny Busby on
the st, having seen his behavior here, he could keep his mouth shut, Danny Busby is offered up as the boogeyman?
And he was not. And he did not kill Lee Jones. We know who did. And it's Jerry Jones.
For Jerry and his family, their long battle to win his freedom comes down to one final argument.
The prosecutor has failed to prove that I murdered my wife, Lee Jones, for one reason. I did not do it.
As you know, I'm on trial here. You're going to go into that room soon and deliberate, and you're going to vote
either guilty or not guilty. Jerry Jones's name is on that ballot. Danny Busby's name is not there.
It's outrageous. Just it doesn't add up. I had no motive. I was not a violent person. I was not an explosive person.
I'm the person you see standing before you today. >> I think what the jury got to see was
>> Jerry Jones acting in closing. >> The crying. >> Yeah. rehearsed. >> Absolutely.
>> Yeah. >> Genuine. >> No. >> For the third time, Jerry Jones fate is in the hands of a jury.
In a scant four and a half hours, the jury reaches a verdict. >> All rise. Court is again in session.
>> After a grueling 3-week trial, >> all parties are here. We have a verdict. Please bring in the jury.
>> Jurors reach a verdict in just 4 and 1/2 hours. >> I'm thinking they came back too soon.
They're going to walk it. >> It's a joint. If you please stand for the reading of the verdict.
>> Oh, I'm expecting a not-uilty verdict. >> We all took it very seriously. >> Just the weight of it. It was almost
overcoming. >> Jurors remember a tense courtroom as they filed in with their verdict.
>> I looked at Jerry Jones and I looked at Ron Durst. I think both of those guys
have had a very personal role in this thing for the last 16 years. >> We the jury find the defendant Jerry
Bartlett Jones Jr. guilty >> of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged
>> when you hear the word for the third time guilty. What was that moment like for you? You
>> just shake your head in disbelief and um what on earth are they thinking? When I hear the word guilty, I'm
thinking this is over for now. This is over. >> For prosecutor Ron Dur, winning a third
conviction is a tremendous relief. >> Was justice served here today, Ron? >> Absolutely. It was served in 2000. It
was served in 1989. >> It's the right verdict. >> All right. >> Yeah. 36 jurors from three trials have now
heard the evidence in this case and not one believes that you are innocent. >> Yeah, that's very disappointing. I don't
have an explanation for it. >> Do you think you should have done anything differently?
>> I think I did everything humanly possible. I can't imagine anything more I could have done. Tell me what the
evidence is that convinces you that I murdered my wife. We went through everything and it just
didn't fit. A lot of us look through every single piece of evidence, including the clothes, the knife, every
single picture, making sure there wasn't something that we were missing. That's why we took 4 and 1/2 hours, or else we
could have came out of that jury room in 45 minutes. >> Jurors didn't buy Jerry's version of
events. >> He had a lot of inconsistencies with his stories >> or his explanation for the cuts on his
hand. It looked like there was at least two contacts with a knife that we could tell, which didn't match up with him
telling us that he had a runin with an asalent and knocked that knife out of his hand. They also didn't believe
Jerry's story of only hearing a single scream as his wife was being stabbed 63 times in the next room.
>> I've lived in a split level house myself. I could be downstairs and hear stuff going on upstairs in the bathroom.
I think there was a terrible struggle and I think you would have heard that all over that house.
>> Can you tell me where she's stabbed? >> All over. >> And after listening to the 911 tape
several times >> on the whole 911 tape, he never cried. >> No, never. >> I thought that was odd.
>> And then he would put down the phone and run and go do this. >> Sir. Sir. >> And put down the phone and run and go do
that. >> Hello. >> When you're on the phone with 911, you stay on the phone. >> You solemnly swear to tell the truth.
And what about Danny Busby? The person Jerry Jones claims is the real killer. >> There was no evidence that Danny Busby
was in that house that night. There was no DNA evidence. There was no blood evidence.
>> Right. >> There was nothing that put Danny Busby in that house except Jerry Jones wanting
him to be in that house and he wasn't. >> Jurors found Danny Busby unlikable. >> Busby is a really nasty human being,
>> but believable. >> He was being very honest about the fact he had hit the woman. He had pushed her
head into the steering wheel. He had admitted to everything, but when it came down to did you kill Lee Jones? No, I
did not kill Lee Jones. >> It was Jerry Jones they didn't believe. >> Every move, every emotion he made seemed
planned out. >> I'm sure he's loving with his children and his grandchildren, but I think his
wife was a whole another matter. >> He looks nice on the outside and he speaks with a soft tone, but he gives me
the creeps. >> He could not hide himself from the jury. >> I did not murder my wife. They saw
through to him to his essential core. >> All rise. >> 5 days after being convicted,
>> state versus Jerry Bartlett Jones. >> Jerry Jones is back in court for sentencing.
>> He is present. He is in custody. >> And for the third time, >> we stand up for him because we believe
in his innocence. Absolutely. >> His daughters ask for compassion. Everyone talks about how much we love
our dad, but they seem to forget how much we loved our mother. >> You can send him to prison, but prison
isn't going to make us suffer any more than we already have in these last 16 years.
>> But for Pam O'Keefe, Danny Busby's mother, Jerry Jones doesn't deserve any sympathy.
>> The evil started the night Jerry Jones murdered his wife. and the next day when
he accused my son of doing it. >> No one knows how years of being vilified affected Danny Busby's life. But his
mother believes Jerry Jones needs to be punished for all the lives he's damaged.
I hope a day doesn't go by for the rest of your life that you don't think of your wife
and how you took her life away from your children and then you accused a 15-year-old innocent boy. You have
ruined so many lives. [Music] >> When it's Jerry's turn, he seems remorseful. >> Wish Danny Busby's name had not come to
mind. I have no reason to bring his name into these proceedings. Stop damaging Danny Busby.
>> Jerry is chastised one last time >> and let him heal and grow the best he can
>> before Judge James Allenorfer sentences him. >> I'm going to sentence you for the third
time in your life to 25 years in the penitentiary. got anything in your pockets at all?
>> But just a few months later, back in prison, Jerry Jones is defiant once again.
>> Do you owe Danny Busby an apology? >> No, I do not owe Danny Busby an apology,
and none will be forthcoming. >> I think it's entirely likely that at this point he's managed to convince
himself that he did not commit this this murder. For Ron Dur, the battle against Jerry
Jones is finally over. He's moving on, but not to another case. >> I, Ronald Dersh, swear that I will
support, defend, and obey. >> Instead of prosecuting, he'll be enforcing the law.
>> You sure you want to do this? >> Yes, sir. >> Welcome aboard. >> As a deputy sheriff,
>> but the case that has consumed his life for so many years will be much more difficult to leave behind. I don't know
that anything we can do in in a courtroom can really put the dead to rest. Clearly, the family has been damaged, I
think, beyond repair by what Jerry Jones did. So, in terms of whether Lee Jones can rest, I hope she can rest.
The rest of us, I don't think can [Music] Before [Music] we begin, just a trigger warning. The
following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen
with care. [Music] Jerry, did you take a filet knife and inflict 63 stab wounds on your wife Lee
and kill her? >> I did not. >> And you swear on everything you believe to be holy that that's true.
>> Everything I can imagine to be holy. I would swear to that fact. Yes. [Music]
That is the sound of Jerry Jones being interviewed by 48 Hours correspondent Peter Vansand about the 1988 murder of
his 41-year-old wife Lee. My name is Judy Ryback. I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer and this is Killer
Conversation, a podcast about what we at 48 Hours have learned about the criminal
mind after years of interviewing convicted killers. In this episode, Peter Vansent will take us behind the
scenes of two conversations he had with Jones, one of the killers who still haunts him to this day. We'll hear never
before heard, revealing exchanges between a highly skilled interviewer and a man convicted of killing the mother of
his three children. >> Peter, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate you taking
the time. >> It's great, Trudy, to be working with you again. We've done this many times,
so it's a pleasure. >> So, Peter, about how many killers do you think you've interviewed for 48 hours?
>> Kind of a strange question, isn't it? I mean, I don't get asked that very often,
but you know, I did some digging and uh cuz over the decades, actually, and it's
over 20 killers. They've strangled, shot, stabbed, blown a husband up in a car bomb, cut throats, tortured, beaten,
poisoned, dismembered, burned, and buried their victims. They're all scary people. But the man we're going to talk
about today, Jerry Jones, he's from my home state of Washington. And in fact, this murder case was just about 8 miles
from where I grew up. And he still has me looking both ways when I leave the office. When I leave the broadcast
center where we are recording this, I always check to my left and right because it's the way he murdered his
wife Lee that really haunts me to this day. >> That is incredible, Peter. You told me
that over dinner one night while we were on the road and I was just blown away. And that's because Jerry Jones is a free
man today. He was parrolled from prison in 2008 after serving only 16 years of a
25-year sentence. >> That's not unusual in my home state of Washington. Um the system there, they've
always taken a a European view of incarceration and they see it as a time of rehabilitation that people can
change. And Jerry, after 16 years in prison, he's he got that second chance and he's now living peaceibly, as far as
I know, in rural Washington state in Western Washington. A >> as someone who believes in second
chances, I have mixed feelings about that. But I really want people to understand the brutality of this crime.
>> The lead investigator who I interviewed, who'd been in many, many homicide situations, had never seen anything like
this. Keep in mind, you know, with a typical murder on a 48 hour show, somebody shoots someone or if they're going to
use something like a knife, they get a butcher knife, they go for the heart, they go for the jugular for a quick
kill, right? It was just the opposite in the way that Lee Jones died. She wasn't
stabbed as much as, this is difficult to listen to, as she was sliced. This was a
fililet knife uh that had a curved end to it. It's a kind of knife that that you might have to cut your steak, right?
It was not a butcher knife. And she was cut at least 63 times. And the forensic expert said that there may may have been
40 different attempts to to cut her and that the this movement of the blade if he was going left to right or right to
left uh would sometimes give her two or three wounds. So that at least 40 different
thrusts at her with this knife, but they were not designed to kill her right away. She suffered minute after minute
after minute. This woman bled out. That's how she died. So when you first met Jones, he had been convicted. He had
served 10 years. The conviction was overturned and he had been out for 2 years. He was about to go to trial a
second time. Um, what what was that like interviewing a man who you knew had been convicted and
was most likely lying to you? >> Well, what was fascinating about Jerry's case is that it became a bit of a media
sensation when he got out. He has two daughters, um, beautiful, intelligent, articulate, and they had been
campaigning on television in not only in the state of Washington, but on a talk show called Liisa, where, uh, the three
of them were on the show and saying, "Our father is innocent. We're convinced of it." And they were so convincing that
I thought to myself, could they be right? Right? Could Could they be right? And keep in mind, as a journalist, you
don't begin an interview with a suspected killer and say, "Jerry, look, I know you did it. The evidence is
irrefutable. You murdered your wife. You tried to manipulate people. You are a killer." You don't do that,
>> right? >> You want to get into their mind. You want to This is a This is a a journey
you're going to take with them. And so, the initial parts of these interviews are always friendly. I want to hear
their story and I do because I want to see can he convince me. And so we met over and over again to talk about his
relationship, how they met, their life together, their ups and downs, the evidence, and he was open to any
question that I wanted to ask. And that's what a journalist dreams of. [Music] >> How did you first meet Lee,
>> Peter? As I recall it, uh, I was stationed in Vietnam at Bentoule Air Base, which was down in the Meong Delta.
And I had been there for several months, it seems. And I I'm almost convinced it
was on New Year's Day of 1970 that I encountered this, the most gorgeous creature I'd ever laid eyes on
in my life. And for me, it was just love at first sight. When you speak of Lee, I
mean, your eyes really brighten. You have a smile on your face. >> Sounds like a sounds like a Disney
movie, but it's more like a Hitchcock film, right? >> Like a Hallmark film. Yeah. It's But
again, for our audience listening to this, that gentle manner he has now. He sounds like a romantic and u and he's in
Vietnam. He was serving our country. And when you see a picture of them back in the day, there she's beautiful. He's a
very handsome man, an authoritative figure to her and um probably seemed like a a match made in heaven for the
two of them. >> Jerry sounds like a light-hearted teenager in love when he talks about
Lee. Do you think that was real or smoke and mirrors? >> Uh a communications professor of mine in
college once told me, he said, "Uh, Peter, words don't have meaning, people have meaning."
Just the thought of her still warms your heart. >> Absolutely. She's still very much a part
of my life. There's I don't think there's a day that goes by that I don't think about her and and think about her
warmly and affectionately. And you know, I still wish that she was here to um be
a part of my life and and and me to be a part of hers and to enjoy our grandchildren and and and look at our
children and how they've grown and developed into such fine young people. So, it's been a big loss for us all.
>> You miss her? >> Absolutely. I'd give anything if I could have her back right now.
>> My goodness. Um, yeah. So, he thinks about her warmly and affectionately. He didn't even say he missed her until you
asked him. >> He's speaking these words, but sitting across from him, he doesn't seem, in my
opinion, to mean them. He has this soft presentation. I do miss her, Peter. And he and and but it the the the emotion is
not there. >> So just before her death, how would you describe their relationship?
>> From outside appearances, here is a very successful pharmaceutical salesman. Lee
is the mother of three beautiful children, two girls and a boy. They live uh in a lovely suburban neighborhood.
But according to two of Lee's friends, she was talking about divorcing Jerry. Look, after her death, investigators
found legal separation papers in their bedroom. Right. Friends say that the marriage was near a breaking point. Lee
was miserable. She feared him. Uh Lee's friends, she had a couple who testified in the course of these trials, said that
uh he was a absolute uh control freak with her, that he dominated her in this relationship. Every day she had to lay
out his socks he was going to wear that day on the bed in a certain way. If she didn't, he got very angry with her.
These friends say according to Lee, he was becoming physically abusive, that he had struck her a number of times. they
would see her wearing sunglasses and ask her to take them off and they'd see a black eye or bruising and and ask about
it and he'd say, "Well, I didn't do what he wanted last night." So, um there's a
belief that there was escalating violence toward Lee uh prior to this terrible, terrible murder.
>> And Jerry, you know, there are people who are so skeptical of you, they don't
think what you just said is genuine. What do you say to those people? >> It's hard to answer somebody like that
because they've come to that belief for reasons that I can't understand or explain myself. To the best of my
knowledge, everyone who actually knows me, Jerry Jones, as a person knows that I'm absolutely incapable of murdering
anyone and certainly not Lee. [Music] This is what Jerry Jones says happened on the night of December 3rd, 1988. He
and his wife, Lee, were home with their four-year-old son, Thomas, watching television. Their oldest daughter, Kim,
had moved out, and their middle child, Beth, was at a party. Jerry says Lee put Thomas to sleep in his basement bedroom
and then went upstairs to a hallway bathroom to take a bath. Jerry says he then went across the hall to their
primary bathroom to take a shower. He says the water was running when he heard Lee scream.
>> I heard this horrible scream and I just I'd never heard anything like that before in my entire life. I was
just I was petrified just just from the scream. >> One loud piercing scream. >> One loud piercing scream
that and that's what I heard. And and I froze for a second or two or three. And >> the floor plan of the house where your
shower was running >> Mhm. >> and where her bath was running, there's a common wall there.
>> Yes. >> She was in the fight of her life. >> Yes. >> She's a strong woman. and the amount of
the just the volume of that battle, the thumping around that was going on in there. Didn't you hear any of that,
>> Peter? I did not. No, >> had I heard it, I certainly would have run to her aid sooner than that. Uh,
>> and you understand how for some people that's hard to believe. >> Well, you know, I I don't know if it's
pos I'm I'm going to say this. It might be possible to do a reenactment. You and your producer Anthony Batson
actually did do an experiment in that house. Tell us about that. >> I was in one bathroom and Anthony Batson
was in the other. Right. We could talk to each other as I'm talking to you right now and hear every word. I took
out like a dime and I dropped it on the bathtubing. You could hear it as if we're both in
the same room. It is impossible for this battle to have gone on. Impossible. and
not hear it. Um, I'm telling you the amount of noise that you could hear through that common wall. It's almost
like as we are speaking right now and his story is just ridiculous. >> But Jones kept insisting to you that he
only heard one story and then ran toward the bathroom and on the way he bumped into a man with a knife.
>> This is happening so quickly, so fast. you start perceiving that something is
coming out. And as I'm moving closer to the doorway, you you can see more and more. And it's a knife that my my
vision, my focus, my attention was just riveted. It's a knife. And I'm continuing forward. And this person,
it's just a figure is con moving. and we just more or less meet in the doorway and collide right there in the doorway
to the bathroom. I'm not thinking that I need to deflect that knife. That never entered my mind. It's just a the fact
that it happened was just a reflex action. You see a knife and my hand went in the direction of that knife and
dislodged it from his hand and in the process I suffered some cuts. Let's talk about those cuts on Jerry's
hand. Um, he says he was defending himself, but the prosecutor has a a different story, right?
>> Absolutely. The prosecution and their forensic expert says the wounds that that jury has are consistent with cuts.
While you're you're you're stabbing or cutting someone with a knife, you've gotten that knife bloody from from your
victim. And blood is a very slippery substance. And this is something that that has occurred in a number of cases
that I have covered where someone has used a knife, particularly in murders of rage where they stab multiple times, is
that the hand will slide down the handle onto the blade. And so if you're holding
it like, you know, try to imagine now you're holding a a knife handle with the blade below your fist and it slides
down. where you get the cut is on the inside of the upper parts of your fingers. That's where his cuts were,
>> right? So, he's gets cut. He's bumps into this guy. This is what Joan says happened next.
>> In the process of the collision, I was forced back and I bumped my head against
the wall and fell to the floor. I saw stars. I I'm convinced that I did not lose consciousness, but I saw stars
and I was dazed. And uh I think I was not down for more than a second or two. And when I got up,
there was nobody in the hallway any longer. >> He saw stars. Was there any evidence that he had been
knocked out? >> No. And if he saw stars, that was only because he stepped outside and looked up
into the night sky. Uh, that again is another ridiculous story. There's no evidence of any concussion. There was no
bump on his head, no bruise, nothing whatsoever to support this. This is someone who is um making a story up. I
immediately went into the bathroom and I encountered uh the most horrible situation I've ever seen in my life. I I
I could see blood on her body and she is struggling. She's trying to push with her feet back into
the corner of the bathtub. She's throwing her hands about in front of her as if fighting off an attacker.
Uh the closer I got to her, I I I reached the side of the tub and I reached in almost immediately and I
said, "My godly, what happened?" And in the process of doing that, um, I was reaching in to try to lift her to me.
And my feet literally just flew out from under me. >> Did she speak to you? >> She was trying to speak. I'm convinced
of that. Her her jaw would fall open as as if she was trying to speak and then it would snap shut
just repeatedly like that. But I can recall this this chattering sound of her teeth.
It's most under the circumstances. I mean, it's it's just like it's a crescendo of noise and yet it's just the
chattering of teeth. >> That chattering sound he makes with his teeth made me think of Hannibal Lectar
in Silence of the Lambs. Do you recall what you were thinking in that moment? >> Takes a lot to shock me and freak me
out. I was completely freaked out. >> It sent a chill down my spine and it takes a lot to do that.
>> Carrie, help me out here cuz this this is where a lot of people it doesn't make
sense. >> You're a bright, articulate man. You've had military training. >> Why haven't you gone to that phone and
dialed 911? >> I don't have a good answer for you, Peter. Had I to do it over again and had
I been completely in control of my faculties, that certainly is what I would have done first and foremost.
>> Did you to just lose it? >> Yes. Yes. That's that's what happened. That's the
truth. That's the way it happened. had you come to my door that day and had you said, "Jerry, there's going to be an
emergency in the neighborhood tonight and we need somebody who can do the right thing under pressure." I
would have said, "Peter, I'm your man. I can do it." when it happened in my old home
and when my when my wife needed me the most, I couldn't do it. I couldn't help her.
Watching this clip, I literally leaned into the monitor to see if there were any tears coming out of his eyes. There
was not a single tear. He's crying. It's so dramatic. Not a single tear. >> Completely manipulative,
a completely disingenuous. Um, disgusting. >> Jerry Jones says that instead of calling
911, he decided to take matters into his own hands and tried to wrestle his bloody wife out of the bathtub. Then
things got even more complicated, he says, when their four-year-old son, Thomas, woke up, climbed the stairs, and
walked in on what must have been a terrifying scene. >> And Thomas comes into the room. And
Thomas, you've got to go back to bed. Your mom's hurt. I'm trying to help her. I've got to call 911. Please go back to
bed. and he very dutifully turns and and leaves. >> What happens then? >> Well, I resume my efforts to get Lee out
of the tub. And again, every time I I reach in and grasp her, she slips out of my hands. And and after two or three
additional uh attempts in this direction, I I'm just so frustrated. I I I don't give up, but I I hear Thomas
calling for me downstairs. He's scared. He knows something has happened. He's apprehensive.
I run down to him. >> Jerry says he decided to put on his boots and take Thomas to a neighbor's
house. >> The thought that enters my mind and controls what I do next is I've got to
get Thomas to a safe place. >> At this point, is Lee still alive? At this point, I think she is
completely non-animated, probably alive, but her last breath is in her at this point in time.
Um, this is several minutes later, 3 5 minutes, and life is I mean, when I first
encountered her, she's still struggling. And this quickly with within 3 to 5 minutes, she's at the point where if
she's breathing at all, it's very shallow, very sporadic. Um, not much life left.
That just takes my breath away every time I hear it. He is calmly sitting there telling you that with precious
minutes ticking by, he has decided to leave his dying wife and take his son next door. Why didn't he just call the
neighbor and ask him to come get Thomas and then call 911? >> You know, the the thought is is that
that would have made covering up this murder much harder. If the if the neighbor had come over to get Thomas,
right, he might have insisted on entering the house. He might have and calling 911 from there, maybe he would
have spoken to Lee. Maybe she would have cried out if she realized another man was in the house
>> and and and maybe he would have attempted to try to help save her. It would just mess up what he had set in
motion and likely lead to his arrest. >> Right. Right. This next clip really stood out to me.
You pushed him hard and he just smiled and once again calmly said some of the most shocking things I have ever heard.
>> You know, there are some who believe you took your son over to your neighbor so
you could go back and finish off late. >> Well, that has never been expressed in those
exact words. I I would say this that while I've in the Air Force I was never really trained to kill anybody, I I have
had some training in self-defense techniques and and there was a brief period when I went to a school in
Florida prior to going to Vietnam where they they taught us some rudimentary techniques for attacking another person.
some basic training >> w with a knife. Some some basic training. Um if if I were going to kill Lee or you or
anyone else and I I had an opportunity to pick my time and my place, I would just cut your throat. I I know that
there is a jugular vein there. I know approximately where it's located. And if and that would be very silent. There
wouldn't be a scream. Uh if if you did get that jugular vein, the the fight would be out of the
individual within seconds. And >> the allegation is this was a crime of passion, of hatred, and that if you did
it that these wolves were done in such anger >> to punish, to inflict a cruel death.
>> Mhm. That there was no anger and there was there was none of that. >> At best, your behavior at this point has
been bizarre. You agree with that? >> I would agree with that. Yes. >> And your explanation
for this bizarre behavior is what? >> I was in shock. I was scared. I'd never encountered anything like that
before in my entire life. I wish I had done the right thing. I wish I'd done the
things that would have been in Lee's best interest. I I look back I had I called immediately
it could have made a difference. Others though who medical experts who have examined the autopsy report have told me
that it probably wouldn't have made a difference. >> Those of us who've been through military
style first aid training and I've done that twice now. pack, wrap, elevate. You pack these wounds quickly in that room
with with toilet paper with if there's Kleenex in there, you put them inside all the wounds. It stops the bleeding.
You use your clothing, use towels to wrap if he was and and she had none of that on her. You know, when the
authorities arrived, she didn't have um evidence that he was stop he was trying to stop the bleeding.
>> Oh, that's so interesting. And that's the part of his story that just drives me crazy is that there should have been
evidence of him doing everything he could to stop this bleeding and there was none. And the and the truth is is
that through their investigation if authorities believe that he took at least 6 minutes from the time he
discovered put quotes around that her body before he called 911. 6 minutes passed.
>> I did not realize that. That is truly stunning. And speaking of stunning evidence, let's get to that 911 call.
>> 911, what do you have? >> Hurry. Uh, my wife and I >> Let me give you a dispatch, sir. Hurry,
please. >> A dispatch. >> Yes, my wife. >> What's the address? >> 9 um 615. Um uh
190 160 9th place. Sorry, please. >> Okay. What? 615 169th place. >> Say again. >> No, you repeat it to me, sir.
>> 6151 169th. Hurry. >> He's given this operator in the course of this two different addresses. They
can't find the house. Um, this is I've never heard of this. You know, I've covered Judy, you too. We've covered
dozens and dozens of murder cases. How many 911 calls I've heard, I've never heard of somebody not knowing where
they're where they live and making this kind of mistake. That just feels um like
a manipulation. >> The dispatchers were confused because they couldn't find Jerry in the phone
book. The ambulance was having trouble finding his house and he kept walking away from the phone. And in that time,
the dispatchers realized that he had given them the wrong address. >> All right, sir. You're going to have
>> down the road. >> You're going to have to help me because we have a conflict with your address.
Please give me your address again. What is your address? >> Let me go look. I'll write down.
>> He's going to go look. This is the most uncooperative trauma victim I've ever had.
>> The most uncooperative trauma victim I've ever had. Jerry walked away from the phone a fourth time for about 20
seconds and then returned with a new address. Okay, Peter. All I can say is what the
fudge. >> I don't buy it. The prosecutor said um he believed that that Jerry was stalling
to make sure that Lee was dead. Le let's listen to you uh ask him about that. >> The prosecution
alleges that this was part of your diabolical plot >> that you were letting bleed to death.
You didn't want the aid car to get there right away. >> And if that were the case, I would have
just waited and waited and I might still be waiting. I may never have called 911
and I would have just I would have made up a story. Well, I didn't think about calling 911 or I I don't know what I
would have done. I'm not good at making up these stories, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever the case might be.
>> Well, he's right about one thing. He is not good at making up stories. He could have transported her body
somewhere, but the fact that Thomas walked in on the scene screwed up. If that was his plan, screwed everything
up. He then had to call 911 because or eliminate his own son. And he'd made a decision obviously not to do that. And
so this to me is a meticulous plan by someone who has this controlling personality that goes ary and then he
tried to tried to compensate with with delaying tactics and everything else. But Thomas walking in on that scene I
believe just messed everything up. >> So a little over 14 minutes have elapsed from the time Jerry dialed 911 to the
moment help arrived. Lee was pronounced dead on the scene with no CPR even attempted and Jerry was arrested that
very night. In 1989, Jerry Jones faced a jury of his peers. They found him guilty
of first-degree murder and he was sentenced to 25 years in prison. In 1998, just over 10 years after Lee was
murdered, a judge set aside Jerry's conviction, ruling that in the first trial, Jerry's lawyer should have been
able to present evidence about a possible alternate suspect, a 15-year-old boy who lived in the
neighborhood named Daniel Busby. [Music] Who is Daniel Busby? >> My knowledge of him on a firsthand basis
is of a obnoxious teenage boy who lived in our neighborhood. I think I first heard his
name mentioned probably in the spring of 1988. As the year progressed, I heard the name
mentioned more and more frequently, usually in a negative uh connotation. Um Lee particularly
uh didn't like him. And saying that of of Lee is saying a lot because I don't think I would have to really really
search my memory to give you the name of anyone else that Lee did not like. >> So, a 15-year-old snuck into his house
and sliced up his wife. What evidence is there of that? >> There's no evidence whatsoever of that.
There's no evidence of an intruder. There is no fingerprints in that bathroom. There is no DNA. Uh there are
no eyewitnesses. Um it's simply he would have had to have levitated into that house and committed
this murder. And think about this. A 15-year-old comes in to do this murder, but he he would have been aware
of Jerry in the other sha in in the other because of that common wall that you can hear anything that Jerry was in
the house in the other room and he's committing this vicious horrible physical battle. It's it's just simply
ridiculous. And this poor kid um Busby uh endured these accusations over the years. He gets reported over and over in
the papers. Just destroyed his life. No evidence whatsoever. And I I find that story uh preposterous.
>> Yes, preposterous is a good word. Busby also had an alibi. His mother said he
was at home with her that night. So, what evidence was there to justify a second trial?
>> Well, uh there are letters. First off, it seems that Busby was obsessed with Jerry and Lee's youngest daughter, Beth.
And it seems he may have also been obsessed with Lee. And he would be a bit of a pest around the house. He liked to
drop by. And and I know that Lee had expressed to a friend that that that he kind of creeped her out a bit the way he
would stare at her in a in sort of a longing way. And then there's this crazy story about
the fact that the four-year-old Thomas, who was in bed downstairs from where uh the murder was, that he heard somebody
growl. And uh and that woke him up. And apparently the only person who ever growled at four-year-old Thomas was this
Busby character. So, it's the letters, the obsession with Lee and Beth, and this one growl that Thomas heard. That's
the evidence that he has. So, as we know, Jerry was found guilty a second time. His conviction was
reinstated and his sentence remained the same. So, they didn't re-sentence him. And just when you thought this case was
over, you get a call that a judge decided jury still hadn't gotten a fair trial. So, he was getting a third. And
he was once again released and wanted to talk to you. >> And this third trial, what are you going
to be able to bring in to this courtroom that you haven't been able to do in the
past? Well, we'll be allowed to uh bring in the fact that Danny Busby has a 16year history of violence against
women, both psychological and physical attacks on every woman he's ever had a relationship with. Uh I think we're
going to be allowed to paint him as the monster that he is. And I believe the evidence will convince the jury that he
indeed is the person responsible for Lee's death. >> Why is Danny Busby's conduct after Lee's
murder relevant to the murder itself? >> Because it it's a pattern of behavior. So Jerry acting as his own attorney
actually called Daniel Busby to the witness stand and questioned him about all that same stuff that they went over
in the second trial, the letters to Lee, the the growl, whatever, but also about
his record with women, what he did to women as an adult. >> Well, Busby was not a cooperating
witness. He was annoyed. Uh this is the man who who had ruined his life in many ways by getting his name into the public
for a crime that authorities believed he did not commit or have anything to do with it.
The police and the prosecutor says there's no evidence against Danny Busby. The jury set aside Danny Busby in their
deliberations immediately saying there's no evidence he did the crime. If he didn't do it and you didn't do it, who
had the motive, the reason to murder Lee? >> Well, it's no third mysterious person.
Either I did it or Danny Busby did it. Obviously, 36 jurors have come to the conclusion for reasons I can't explain
that I did it. But I can look you or anyone else in the eye and tell you I did not murder my wife. And all I can
ask you or these jurors, they they saw the evidence in the courtroom, but I don't know, look at it in a little more
depth. What on earth is required to prove reasonable doubt? >> You know what's interesting? The judge
even scolded him after he was convicted and sentenced for dragging Daniel Busby repeatedly through the mud for nearly 17
years. And the jury felt he owed Daniel Busby an apology. >> Do you owe Danny Busby an apology?
>> No. Danny Busby cannot look me in the eye and ask me for an apology. He knows what he did. He
knows who he is. He knows that he murdered Lee Jones following the second trial. He became
emboldened and he has told several people, "I did it and I'll do it again." He has told several people, you know,
they have the wrong guy in prison because I did it. He thinks and I believe he knows in his
mind that he has gotten away with murder and that he can say whatever he wants to
say and and he has told people that he murdered my wife. >> Okay, so for the record that is
absolutely untrue. Daniel Busby testified under oath that he never told anyone that he killed Lee and no one has
ever testified that he did tell them he killed Lee. when you listen to him, um, he has a gentle sound. When you look at
him, when you're talking to him, he has a a gentle face. But behind that, to me,
it's a mask. Behind that is is a is a coldhearted uh killer and and one who deserved this
uh this verdict of guilt. I think justice was served. It took three bites of the apple to have it happen, but he
is a man who murdered his wife. I have no doubt of that. >> No doubt. So, I love that you asked
Jerry at the end of the interview if he was going to try for a fourth trial, and
his answer just made me laugh out loud. >> I'm not interested in a fourth trial.
I'll do the ballots of the three years I have on my sentence. When I'm released,
I will move to Southeast Asia. I will work with orphans. I will do what I can to keep young
ladies out of the sex trade. And I will work with those who are disabled as a result of the Vietnam War.
>> Oh my god, I can't take it. I will work with orphans, keep ladies out of sex trade, save the whales, feed the hungry.
Holy cow. >> Yeah. and he lives off of a country road near u Arlington, Washington today in a
in a small house. He never went to Southeast Asia. He never helped ladies out of the sex trade. He didn't do any
of those things. Well, Peter, this case is so fascinating from start to finish, and your
interviews are just a masterclass in how to question a killer. I am so grateful that you took the time to join us on
this podcast. >> Well, this was your idea, this wonderful podcast, and I think it's fascinating to
try to get into the minds of these killers, which is a very frightening place to be.
[Music] >> On the next episode of Killer Conversation, Aaron Morardi will join me
to discuss Brian Stewart, also known as Rick Valentini, my first killer. He's a guy who changed his name illegally, lied
about who he was, and murdered his 32-year-old girlfriend, Jaime Ley. >> You're not really Brian Stewart at all,
are you? >> To me, I am, >> but not legally, are you? >> Well, legally, I'm not anything. That's
the problem. >> You're Rick Valentini. [Music] 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted
and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound
design, factchecking, and additional production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify. Tune in next Tuesday for an allnew episode of Killer Conversation. Follow Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a wonderful, bubbly, confident,
independent woman and she's missing. >> Jamie Ley disappeared. Doesn't make any sense. She's a college graduate from
University of Michigan, respected within her community. People of her background
and stature don't just come up missing for 10 weeks and nobody hears from them. >> How can one of my best friends have been
missing for 10 weeks? How did it come to this? That she could be gone so long and
nobody reported it. I couldn't believe that it had been that long that nobody had noticed. It was absolute craziness.
Well, Phoenix in the metropolitan area is the sixth largest city in the country. It's it's a big valley and it's
surrounded by desert on all four sides. I believe Jaime Lady came to Arizona to establish her own identity.
>> Jaime was a very private person. She kept to herself. She wasn't close with her family.
>> She just kind of had a don't ask me about my parents kind of thing. >> So, the only person that saw her on a
daily basis was her living boyfriend, Brian Stewart. Jaime and I dated for nearly 3 years. She's always refused to
talk about her past or her family. Every time that Jaime saw her parents, she was
terrified. >> It was a very different case than just about everything else that we work.
>> There was no blood. There was no body. There was no evidence of a crime scene. There's no smoking gun
in this case, but there is a lot of burning matchsticks. >> Jaime's lost. We don't know where she is, and it's
really sad. >> She was a good person, and she didn't deserve this. >> I believe Jaime was murdered because
there's no clear explanation as to where she is now, what happened to her, and why.
>> Jamie Liidy is alive. She took $100,000 of daddy's money and she left the state
of Arizona. >> He's a very convincing liar. >> Bring it on. I know she's alive. >> I'm Aaron Morardi. Tonight on 48 hours,
the stranger beside me. [Music] [Music] When Jaime Leod disappeared in March of 2010, none of her closest friends
noticed for weeks. The truth is, Jaime had been fading from their lives for nearly 2 years.
>> If your friend stops making an effort, you kind of stop, too. But I never thought Jaime would have been the one to
stop making an effort. It was completely out of character for the sweet California girl they all met
as freshman at the University of Michigan. She was a good friend. We were a support network for each other.
>> Gwennneth Newman, Sheila Dubes, and Jennifer Langoot say they quickly formed a lasting bond with Jamie.
>> It's kind of like we had this rock. We had this family of of friends that we were so connected with. And I remember
leaving Michigan. And it was just so reassuring that you're just a phone call away from feeling like you belong
somewhere again. >> They call themselves the 516 girls, referring to the address of a house they
shared in Ann Arbor their senior year and where they were passionate supporters of Michigan's Big 10 football
team. >> We were obsessed with UM football. >> No one was a greater booster than Jamie.
I think just to I I always picture her in my mind on football Saturdays, you know, charging out to the stadium.
>> Sheila says that she and Jamie had a special connection. >> We were both from immigrant families
>> and both were under heavy pressure to succeed. >> I think our fathers were kind of the
same. We they put a lot of pressure on us to do really well in school, but I think she just wanted to make it on her
own. >> Vonnie and Jimmy Lee came to the US from Thailand in search of a better life.
They admit they pushed Jamie to go to medical school. >> You think that because you were pushing
her to go back to school, she might have pulled away a bit? >> She said she's a big girl.
>> After graduation, Jamie landed in Phoenix, Arizona. The Big Valley was booming, the perfect place to blend in
and make her own way. She eventually found a highpaying job selling medical supplies. And while it consumed her
time, she managed to maintain her now longd distance friendships. >> We emailed each other a lot. Even though
we all ended up in different locations, I think we still looked to each other for support.
[Music] The weddings were the big thing that kind of kept us together. But far away in Arizona, Jamie was
lonely. So she joined a local University of Michigan alum club where she found friends who shared her deep love of
Michigan football. Marina Buffa was the group's president. >> She was enthusiastic, but still she was
reserved and quiet. >> But when she caught the eye of a handsome young fellow Michigan fan,
Jamie found romance. >> She was hot. I mean, I how else do you put it? >> Brian Stewart says the attraction was
immediate. >> She had a really good smile and and really got enthusiastic about the
football games and would jump up and cheer and would sing with the fight song. [Applause]
>> They started dating in the fall of 2007. About a year later, Brian moved into the
home that Jaime owned in the trendy Phoenix suburb of Chandler. She was the bread winner, making well over $100,000
a year. Brian, a personal trainer, made much less. Did she pay most of the bills?
>> Most of the big ones, yeah. But it's not like I was dependent upon her. >> Did you love Jamie?
>> I still love Jamie. You know, I just want Jamie to be happy. It's hard because I don't know if Jaime knows what
what it takes to make her happy. >> In August 2009, Jaime suffered a crushing setback when the economy took a
big downturn, she lost the thing she valued most, her highpowered job. >> Her career had been going so well for so
long, and I think this was a a pretty major blow to her. >> She searched for months in Arizona,
Florida, New Jersey, but Jaime couldn't find another job. When the real estate crash hit Chandler and her property
value plunged, Brian says she became despondent and even more withdrawn. >> You know, it was like when it rains it
pours. For Jamie, it was pouring. >> Brian says all of it took a toll on their relationship. So, he rented an
apartment in Scottsdale and planned to break things off. And on the night of March 17th, he said he was going to tell
Jamie he was moving out. Instead, he says she surprised him. >> She came in, asked me to take a week off
from work, and she's like, "We're going to go to Denver. We're going to get a house. You know, I I've got a job offer
up there. Um, it's it's time to go. I want to go. I want to get out of this state." Basically, I I told her, "No,
I'm not leaving Arizona. I'm not going to marry you." Brian admits Jaime was upset and that they argued. Still, he
says that when they went to bed, things had settled down. At the crack of dawn the next morning, Brian left for work.
>> She was laying in bed and I gave her a kiss, told her I loved her, and got in the truck and drove to work.
But later that morning, Brian emailed Marina Buffa and told her a different story
>> and said, "Jamie dumped me. She moved to Colorado." >> Did that surprise you at all?
>> No. I thought, "Good for her." >> Did he seem upset? >> Um, a little bit. He was more angry that
she left him alone. >> At any point, did it even cross your mind that something could have happened
to Jamie? >> No. I knew she had means. If she wants to pick up and leave, good for her.
[Music] >> That day and for weeks to come, no one realized that Jamie had disappeared.
When is the last time you saw Jamie? >> Physically saw her? 3:15 a.m. March 18th, 2010.
[Music] There she is. Jaime Liy had always been fiercely private, but by the summer of
2009, she was practically reclusive, cutting herself off from nearly everyone except her live-in boyfriend, Brian
Stewart. We never had anybody over for dinner. We never had any parties. Nobody came over to watch television or
to just hang out. >> Why not? So I I one of the great mysteries. I don't know. >> Even Jaime's parents say she was more
distant than ever. >> My husband said, "Well, you know, she's a busy girl. Don't bother her."
>> That's why it took nearly 3 months for anyone to notice that Jamie was missing.
I think people were just respecting her privacy in her space and that was unfortunate.
>> Then on May 28th, Marina got a call from Brian. >> He said, "You know, I'm starting to get
worried about Jamie." >> Marina was also worried. So, she and another member of the Michigan Alum Club
called a private investigator, Burke Files. Files did a background check on Brian and found nothing suspicious.
Although one thing did stand out about 10 years earlier at two different addresses in Michigan, Brian had lived
with a man named Rick Wayne Valentini. >> It could be a roommate. It could be a close friend. It could be a relative.
>> And then Burke Files went on to trace Jaime's credit to see where she was now
living and working. He came up empty >> and nothing. There was no activity at all. Nothing.
>> Jaime had disappeared into thin air. So files sounded the alarm. Marina urged
Brian to call Jaime's parents who then called the police. >> I immediately thought something was
wrong. People of her background and stature don't just come up missing for 10 weeks and nobody hears from them.
That afternoon, Chandler police got a warrant to search Jaime's home and started calling Brian, but he seemed to
be ignoring them. >> To me, that was alarming. It just showed a lack of concern.
>> Later that same night, when detectives were searching for Jaime's missing Ford
Escape, they found it in Scottsdale with Brian behind the wheel. >> The detective said, "Well, I'm here in
regards to your girlfriend." and the first thing he did was say, "My ex-girlfriend."
>> The detective felt that Brian was being evasive and seemed nervous. When Brian
asked to use the bathroom in his own apartment, the answer was no. >> We didn't want to risk losing any
evidence if there was some in there. As luck would have it, uh, he had a warrant
for his arrest for driving on a suspended license for a traffic offense. So the detective used that warrant to
take Brian into custody. >> Brian. >> Yes. >> Hey, I'm Nate Moffet. How are you, man?
It's B R Y, right? >> Yes. >> Last name is Stewart. >> Detective Moffett interrogated Brian.
>> How long have you and Jamie been dating? >> Give or take 3 years. >> Okay. When did you guys move in
together? >> Honestly, I don't know. >> Okay. Were you cheating on Jamie at all before?
>> No. >> While Detective Spielman searched Jaime's home for clues. >> Walk me through what happened around
March. >> It was simple really. Um, she hated everything about the state. She wanted out.
Now, she'd been up there for interviews. I suspected that she would get the Denver offer.
>> You know, he's saying she went to Colorado, yet all of her suitcases are there and her passport's there. All
these things that she would need to travel are there at the house. >> But Jaime's wallet and driver's license
were missing. >> I was concerned, but the possibility did exist that, you know, she just left and
she doesn't want to be found. But at Chandler PD, Moffett smelled a rat and started pressing Brian.
>> Did you hurt Jamie? >> Okay. Did you have anything to do with her disappearance?
>> Mm-m. You have nothing to hide. >> No. >> But things just didn't add up for Moffett. There were just too many
inconsistencies. Brian gave a birth date to the arresting officer which didn't match the date on
his Arizona ID. >> I have no freaking clue who's sitting in front of me and it's extremely uneasy
for me as I'm investigating a case of this magnitude. >> Moffett had no idea how right he was
until the next day when Brian was in a jail cell and detectives were searching his apartment.
>> Well, we were searching his new residence. We located a Manila envelope with a Michigan driver's license in the
name of Rick Wayne Valentini. And that picture was Brian Stewart. You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you?
On the night of May 29th, 2010, as he interrogated Brian Stewart about his missing girlfriend, Jamie Leody,
Detective Moffett knew that Brian wasn't telling the truth. >> I mean, you're talking a woman who's
who's been gone for 2 months now. Um, and I have a person in front of me that has different social security numbers, a
couple different dates of birth. >> You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you?
>> To me, I am. >> But not legally, are you? >> Well, legally, I'm not anything.
>> Actually, legally, Brian is Rick Wayne Valentini. Remember the roommate that private
investigator Burke Files noticed in Brian Stewart's credit history? Well, there was no roommate, just this guy,
Rick Valentini, who was preparing to change his identity. >> In our modern world with the databases,
you just can't turn on a new name, a new taxpayer ID number, a social security number. You have to age it. You have to
season it. >> In October 2001, when the name Brian Stewart had enough of a credit history,
Rick Valentini disappeared from Michigan. Days later, a man named Brian became a resident of Phoenix.
>> Driving from Michigan to Arizona, that's all I did. Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart,
Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart. I was always saying, listening for Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, because it's a
new name. >> A new name and a new man. According to Rick, the kind of man he always wanted
to be. and he insists that whether legal or not, he is now Brian Stewart and would only agree to an interview if we
would use that name. >> And if you don't want to accept that, I don't want you around. I don't want you
in my life. >> Why not change your name legally? Why go to the trouble of forging a birth
certificate? >> Well, it it was my understanding that to to change your name legally would take
years. Brian claims he wasn't running from the law, just leaving behind what he describes as a tragic childhood.
Everybody takes their name for granted. Your your name is the very core essence of who you are, of what you are. And you
find out it that it's all a lie. And then you find out that your own father doesn't even know you exist because your
own mother didn't bother to tell him. >> His mother was 18 when he was born. His
real father reportedly walked away. >> He just wasn't loved. Just didn't have love. That's why he loved us cuz we
loved him. >> His aunt Donna says she believes he was physically and emotionally abused.
>> I think the other children were too, but not like him. He always knew there was
something different about him and he didn't know what. >> Do you think that he created this
different name, different persona because he just didn't want to be who he was? >> Exactly. Exactly.
>> But when detectives started looking into Rick Valentini's background, this is
what else they found. Three ex-wives and two daughters. Hello. >> Hi. Is this Cynthia?
>> This is >> Hi, Cynthia. Detective Dave Selvage from Chandler Police Department.
>> One of his exes told Chandler Police she thinks Rick is just a deadbeat dad on
the run. >> He owed, from what I understand, quite a bit of back child support from Wendy,
his first wife. >> His oldest daughter, Amy, was a baby when he left. >> He never called, never talked to me,
never contacted me. When your mom finally told you about your dad, what did she say about him? What kind of guy
he was? >> A really bad guy. A liar. He always told him that he always lied all the time. He
lied about lots of things. >> In Phoenix, his whole life was a lie. He told everyone, including Jamie, that
his parents were killed by a drunk driver. He pretended to be eight years younger than he is and boasted a hero's
military record that was complete fiction. When you talked to Detective Mafet, when
he sat you down, he asked you about your military record and you said you've been
to Iraq and Afghanistan. You hadn't, had you. Mm- >> No, you lied. >> I was >> You lied.
>> Yeah. Rick Valentini aka Brian Stewart was an enlisted man, but he was dishonorably
discharged after going awall and stabbing two military officers in the hand and leg. He served two years in a
military prison. He never mentioned that to anyone either. >> Freeze it. >> You tell a lot of stories though, don't
you? I have a lot of stories to tell. >> But you tell a lot of lies. >> Um, lies mixed in with the truth.
>> Like the lie that ultimately made Jaime Lee trust Brian with her life. [Music]
You never actually went to the University of Michigan, did you? >> No. Mm-m. >> But you let people think you did.
>> Sure. >> Why? It was just uh a tie-in to my home state and it was just part of the the
pride that I had. I've been a Michigan fan since I was a little boy. >> He was right in there and boy, he was a
Michigan man. >> And it wasn't just that fanaticism that conned the alumni group in Phoenix for 4
years. Brian also had a fake diploma. >> He's fooled all of us. We're talking hundreds of people here and 20 or so
board members, many of them attorneys and judges. >> News of Jaime's boyfriend's double life
went viral and made her disappearance even more alarming. >> This doesn't happen to your
>> No, this does not happen to the people you went to college with that you call
your sister. This doesn't happen to your family. You don't have friends who meet
people who have double identities. Did you begin to think that maybe Jamie was dead?
>> Yes. >> And did you think he might have killed her? >> Mhm. >> Did you kill Jamie?
>> No. I've never killed anybody in my life. Not ever. >> Did you two fight that night? Were you
angry with her? >> No. She had told me that uh she was going to be leaving the next day.
>> And where was she going? >> It was my impression, Denver. But detectives who had already
discovered several suitcases in Jaime's home couldn't find any evidence of Jaime
ever leaving for or arriving in Denver. Brian says that's because Jaime didn't want to be found.
>> I taught Jamie how to create a whole new life for herself. That included a new
identification, a whole new persona, a whole new way of looking at things. >> Are you saying that you helped Jamie
change her identity? >> Yeah, I showed her how to do it. The only thing that she ever lived for was
to be free of her family. She wanted to be on her own. >> He's too smart. Why would he have stayed
there for 10 weeks? If he killed her, why wouldn't he have just left? He'd done it before. Why wouldn't he do it
again? >> Isn't it possible that Jaime's doing the same thing that that Brian did? Just
vanished the same way and and no one's been able to track her down. >> Are you asking me today if I believe
that's possible? Absolutely not. I wholeheartedly believe Brian Stewart, Rick Valentini, whoever
you want to call him, murdered Jaime Ley on the night of March 17th. >> But a year and a half after Jaime
disappeared, there is still no body, no blood, no sign of a struggle, no physical evidence of a murder.
>> We just didn't have what you would consider a traditional crime scene, so we went with more of a virtual crime
scene. They started investigating the digital record of Jaime's life, and this little white envelope contains several
pieces of the puzzle. Prosecutor Juan Martinez says it was enough to convince him that Brian Stewart should be charged
with murder. This is a really telling piece of evidence. Oh my gosh. in this many pieces.
In June 2010, Brian Stewart was charged with fraud for forging a new birth certificate and changing his name
illegally. If you think using the name Brian Stewart is fraudulent, hey, we're going to fight it out in
court. >> But while detectives suspected he was responsible for the disappearance and
death of his girlfriend, Jamie Leody, they couldn't charge him with her murder. What do the two of you think
happened that night? >> I think they had a fight. >> But wouldn't there be some sign of that
in her home? >> Not necessarily. I mean, strangulation or suffocation or or anything like that, there's going to
be virtually no blood. >> With no physical evidence, they would have to build a strong circumstantial
case to prove that Jaime was dead and Brian was the one who killed her. We literally dissected all of Jaime's
financial affairs, all of her accounts, all of the transactions, his email, her email.
>> What they saw was a very responsible woman. >> I mean, she was a person that stayed up
on her emails, she returned phone calls, she paid all of her bills on time until
March 17th. Then she didn't do any of those things. For the next three months, detectives realized that the only person
who appeared to be using Jaime's credit cards was Brian Stewart. >> The only transactions on one of Jaime's
accounts were internet purchases and dating websites. >> He used her cards to meet other women.
>> That's right. Basically, he said the same thing. He was a graduate of the University of Michigan. Never been
married. Didn't know if he wanted kids or not. >> That's nervy, isn't it? Yeah, it's
pretty nerdy >> and pretty insensitive too, isn't it? >> Um, >> yeah, >> you know, a little because Well, let me
let me explain. >> You used her credit cards to go on dating sites to meet other women.
>> Well, you know what? Look, Jamie Jamie was leaving. >> But nothing alarmed prosecutor Martinez
more than what detectives found when they searched Brian's apartment in Scottsdale. Her wallet was laying on his
desk. There was a number of her credit cards there on the desk. And then on the back filing cabinet was her personal
telephone that he said she had with her. So was this small white envelope. And when police got a warrant to open it,
they found pieces of cut up ID and credit cards. When they put them together, they had Jamie Lead's driver's
license, her Michigan University alum card, and several credit cards. Why did you cut up her driver's license?
>> I didn't cut them up. >> Brian claims it was Jamie who cut up the cards after she changed her identity and
ran away. But when Chandler police tested the envelope to see who sealed it, the DNA belonged to Brian.
Even when you had that envelope, it still took a year before you brought murder charges against him.
>> We were tying up all the loose ends. Uh when you don't have a body, you have to
be very careful because you only get one chance. >> That chance came when an inmate at the
jail where Brian was being held agreed to testify that Brian had confessed to killing Jamie.
He went to this particular individual and said, "Do you think that they can charge me if they can't find the body?"
>> On March 24th, 2011, a grand jury indicted Brian on charges of seconddegree murder of his girlfriend,
Jaime Lead. He was also charged with fraud for using Jaime's credit cards without her permission. Who is
technically legally on trial here? an individual by the name of Rick Valentini, also known as Brian Stewart.
>> But isn't this a little odd because even through the trial, you're calling him
Brian Stewart. >> That's the name that he preferred. I'll use whatever name he wants to convict
him. >> In October of 2011, Rick Wayne Valentini, aka Brian Stewart, went on trial.
>> State's first witness. The first witness to testify for the state was Andrea Ardsma.
>> What does your husband do for a living? >> He is a professional baseball player.
>> Back in 2010, she and her husband David, then ace pitcher for the Seattle Mariners, were in Scottsdale during the
off season. Andrea worked out at Gold's Gym 5 days a week and her personal trainer was Brian.
>> And did he tell you whether or not he had a girlfriend? >> Yes, he had a girlfriend. And did he
tell you her name? >> Jamie. >> As a result, >> Andrea testified that for months before
Jaime disappeared, Brian had complained about his souring relationship and what he really thought of his girlfriend.
>> Whiny, naggy, [ __ ] uh, sugar mama. Um, nothing nothing positive at all. I don't know if he just thought I was a
good listener or if he really did think that I was stupid and that he could tell
me all these things and nothing would come of it. >> In one of the trials most disturbing
moments, Andrea stood up and reenacted Brian sharing his nickname for Jamie. >> Jamie the gut. Jamie the gut.
>> I'm like, man, like if you hate her so much, just just break up with her. The
jury also heard from Jaime's parents. >> Have you received any emails from her? >> No.
>> Has she shown up at your house? >> No. >> And have you been hiding her just so
that Mr. Stewart Stewart won't find her? >> No. But some of the most significant
testimony revealed that Jaime had found a new job and not in Denver, but right here in Phoenix.
>> She's very excited about her new job and we're looking forward to working together on March 18th.
>> David Bochamp, a lawyer and friend, testified that he helped Jaime negotiate the contract for that job. What's more,
he saw Jaime 2 days before she disappeared and testified that he saw bruises. >> She was exhibiting many, many of the
characteristics of a battered woman and she absolutely broke down. >> On day seven of the state's case,
>> thank you. Please be seated. >> The jailhouse snitch took the stand. >> The whole truth about the truth, so I
hope you got it. >> I do. >> Thank you. At his request, the judge ordered us not to reveal his identity.
He also got a deal for testifying. A 2-year sentence for fraud was reduced to one.
>> He's very agitated talking about how uh the police know that that I killed her,
that uh he he needed to get it off his chest. >> By the time the state rested, prosecutor
Martinez and Detective Nate Moffett were sure they would get a conviction on the
fraudulent schemes charge. But had they convinced the jury that Brian had committed murder,
>> I think a lot of people would have a hard time convicting with nobody, we really had to be careful and listen to
both sides. >> Knowing his life was on the line, Brian was about to do something that would
shock the entire courtroom. Were you expecting the defendant to take the stand? >> I wasn't.
>> Absolutely not. >> But I was glad that he did. [Music] pieces of a driver's license and credit
cards, a closet filled with shoes and purses. several >> the evidence at trial is a daily
reminder of what Jamie Ley's parents have lost. >> So hard every time they mention her
name, it's hurt me so much that I'm thinking that I'm not going to see her anymore then.
>> And as the defense begins, Jaime's mother has one wish. >> The whole time I've been praying that I
hope he take this stand. >> Why? >> Because then they can see through him. Her prayer is granted despite his fifth
amendment right to remain silent and very much against his lawyer and most any lawyer's advice.
>> Stand up. Raise your right hand. >> Brian Stewart boldly and defiantly takes the stand.
>> I am the only human being who knows what happened. I'm the only human being who
knows why things happened, when they happened. What was your relationship like? >> It was, I would say, 95% great.
>> Did Did you argue? >> No, not really. >> He appears confident and relaxed. But
after all, it is his lawyer asking the questions. >> Did you kill Jaime to use her credit
cards? >> Absolutely not. >> Did you have general permission to use her credit cards? Yes.
>> Brian insists he didn't need to steal from Jamie. >> Why do you why do you feel that you had
permission to use the cards? >> Even from our first date, it was literally an instruction to use them.
>> And then he drops a bombshell, claiming that long after Jaime disappeared, she
was still in Phoenix and would visit the house they shared and his new condo when
Brian wasn't around. because I would get back to my condo and things would be moved around or things
would be left behind. >> Okay. Now, how did she get into your into your apartment?
>> She had a key. >> But that's not all. He also claims he continued to communicate with Jamie long
after that morning in March 2010 when she vanished. >> How did she communicate with you?
>> Email and telephone. >> Okay. >> You have told people that if you had a computer, you could find her. I've got a
computer here. You want to try? Got my iPad here. How would you find her? >> I I would have to look on mine. Um
>> I mean, if I got this whole thing set up, could you? I mean, if you >> No, because I need to get into my
computer because there's a special email site that we were working through. You you must know, Brian, that that sounds a
little crazy that you would have given this information to your attorneys and they wouldn't go looking for the one
person who could save you from going to prison for life. >> You know, I I I told them that and I
never heard anything. >> Did you murder Jamie Ley? >> No. Jamie Leudy is a liar.
>> She would just let you go on trial for murder, go to prison for the rest of your life.
>> I don't know. I don't think that I don't think either one of us ever expected it
to get this far. >> Would you be at all surprised if I told you that she was about to walk through
that door? >> No, >> I believe. >> But prosecutor Juan Martinez wasn't buying any of it.
>> You didn't actually talk to her in that condo, did you? >> No. >> You have not seen her at any time and
she hasn't walked in now. Right. >> Right. And she won't walk in because you killed her. Right.
>> Wrong. I don't have anything else. Thank you. >> One day before Thanksgiving 2011, more
than a year and a half after Jaime Leody disappeared, the prosecution and defense
rested. >> All right. >> After presenting two very different stories, it was now up to the jury to decide, and
foreman Leon Le was worried. As we were moving to deliberation, I wondered how difficult of a decision
this is going to be for uh the 12 of us knowing that there's no body. >> But just 4 hours later, the jury
returned with a verdict. >> Did any of you look at him when you walked in? >> No, I did not.
>> No. >> Thank you. Please be seated. Brian Stewart was reassured by deputy sheriffs guarding him.
>> Oh, yeah. They're like, "Yeah, you're you're good." Anytime a jury comes back
that quick. And I was like, "Okay, well, wow. All right. That's pretty good." We, the jury, duly impanled and sworn in
the above entitled action upon our oaths as to count one, seconddegree murder, do
find the defendant guilty. >> Fraudulent. >> Guilty. Do you find >> Jaime's parents were overcome?
>> Are these your true verdicts? So say you want >> guilty. That's all I heard. And I just
>> I lost it. I was so happy. >> Liam panel sworn. >> And then there was more. >> As you count two fraudulent schemes and
artififices do find the defendant guilty. Signed for person. >> Brian Stewart couldn't believe his ears.
I just sat there. >> Like to me, my life was over with. >> I just couldn't understand,
you know? I mean, if I would have killed her, I would have admitted to it. >> Do you think Brian Stewart/Rick
Valentini is a dangerous man? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Absolutely. >> No question in your mind.
>> None. None at all. The first 10 minutes of his testimony, any doubt I had that he was
solely responsible for the murder of Jamie had been sealed at that moment in time.
>> You've told so many stories, it's hard to believe you. >> Let's look at the army. Okay.
>> No, let's look at what happened to Jamie. That's what really matters. >> Jaime took $100,000
and she left the state of Arizona. I've said it for 18 months. I say it now and I'm going to say it for the next 18
years. >> But investigators say there was no money and his story is just another lie.
>> And for her friends and family, [Music] I just feel so bad that we weren't there.
>> The one remaining question may never be answered. Is it hard because you don't really know
where she is? You've never been able to bury her. >> That's right. That's right. I still have
um what they call the receiving blankets of Jamie from the hospital and I I carried it with me all the time.
And I intend to use that blanket to carry her home. It would be fine. [Music] [Music]
Did you kill Jamie? >> No. >> Did you two fight that night? Were you angry with her?
>> No. I've never killed anybody in my life. Not ever. >> Meet Brian Stewart, also known as Rick
Valentini. He was my first killer. What do I mean by that? Well, my name is Judy
Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 Hours producer. Back in 2011, my very first assignment for 48 Hours was to convince
the man with two names to do an interview with Aaron Morardi. He agreed under one condition that we only call
him Brian. >> You're not really Brian Stewart at all, are you? >> To me, I am. >> But not legally, are you?
>> Well, legally, I'm not anything. That's the problem. >> You're Rick Valentini.
>> His legal name was Rick, but we all agreed to call him Brian because he had just been convicted of the secondderee
murder of his 32-year-old girlfriend, Jaime Ley, and we wanted to hear his story even though we knew it was mostly
fiction. Actually, he had run away from a life in Michigan. He changed his name illegally, tricked Jaime into believing
him, and killed her. Our front row seat to this con man's relationship with the truth taught us so much about how the
criminal mind works. Things you don't learn in books. I'm excited to be producing and hosting
48 hours killer conversation. And even more excited that Aaron Morardi is here to talk about her masterclass of an
interview with my first killer, but definitely not hers, Brian Stewart. Welcome, Erin. Thank you so much for
being here today. I so appreciate it. You are the hardest working woman in television, and I know you're taking
this time out to to be with us is is a real gift, >> but it's great, Judy, that you're doing
killer conversation. >> So, tell me how you prepare for these interviews because I know you want to
get at the truth, but that's not easy, right? No, because realize that the defendant in this case probably knows
the case better than anybody if they were there or not there, but they know the facts of the case. Uh, so you have
to go in so prepared. So I think my goal, I think your goal too when you talk to someone is to talk with them
after really at the end of the process, after we've read every court document, spoken to everybody involved with the
case. That's ideal. Uh because otherwise you you can't you don't know whether that person's telling you the truth or
not. >> Right. Right. And we do really do our homework going into these things. >> You have to.
>> Yeah. So you asked Brian Rick, whatever his name is, uh why he agreed to sit down with you, and this is
what he had to say. >> Why are you talking to us today? Um, I guess to put out the truth, you know, I mean,
it it really sounds I don't know how it sounds, but frankly speaking, from 2007 until now, I am the
only human being who knows what happened. I'm the only human being who knows why things happened,
when they happened. >> Well, he's he's telling the truth on one thing. He's the only living person,
>> right, >> who knows what happened. Uh because sadly, at the time we were doing this
interview, um Jamie was still missing. Uh and so there was no one to contradict what he said.
>> Right. Right. He had a a blank canvas to tell his story. Right. So, let's talk
about the backstory of this case. Um, in 2010, uh, Jamie was 32 years old. She went missing from her home in Chandler,
Arizona. Police couldn't find her or her body. Some people thought she might have
picked up and and just disappeared, taken off. But once police got involved, almost everyone believed that she was
dead. Right. >> Right. And one of the sad parts of this story is Jamie was a very private
person. She didn't share a lot even with her close friends. Um so when she first
disappeared, nobody really thought that much about it. Um but then after a few weeks, then they started getting
worried. Um and once it was clear that she was missing, the most obvious person of interest was of course Brian. Um when
the police caught up with him, he was driving her car. He had her IDs. And at trial, the 42year-old
got 54 years behind bars for murder and for fraud, >> right? It's it's really remarkable. Um,
so you do work on a lot of wrongful convictions. How do you know when someone is lying to you?
>> Well, some people are obvious. Uh, they really are. Uh, I just interviewed a an
individual last year who when he talked to me, he contradicted the evidence. I mean, you know, and he knew it. He
didn't even seem to be bothered. But there are other people. Remember, these individuals who are accused of a crime
know the case better than anyone. Uh know the details better than anyone and sometimes can twist it and make you
believe. >> Right. Although in this case it was pretty obvious. >> Yes. Yes, it was. But also because he
contradicted the the evidence as well. So >> Right. Right. the circumstantial evidence was really strong. Um,
>> you yourself, you know, I wasn't the only one. I talked to him after you had talked to him. You spent hours on the
phone with him and in person. Um, did you at first think he was telling the truth or was there a time when you
realized this guy's lying? So, I went into this having already read, you know, everything that was available to me and
and I had spoken to the cops and the prosecutor. So, I kind of knew what the story was, but um yeah, I sent him a
letter and cuz that's what we have to do. We have to send them a letter, set up an account for them to call us. and
he slowly started calling me and uh you know at first it was very cir you know surface conversation and then we started
digging into his case a little bit more and I spent so many hours he I think he called me every day for a while because
he was bored right he was bored and and uh he was testing me and then I went to Phoenix to sit through his entire trial
and I would visit him once a week you know Arpaio Sheriff Arpaio would let me um visit him once a week. And um I
remember the first time I went to visit him, they left me in a room with him. I mean, he was shackled and and there was
someone in the room with us, but I was in there for 4 hours with him and he just told his whole story and I remember
thinking, "Oh, I I I have to go back to the hotel and make notes so I don't forget anything." But then every week I
heard the same thing over and over and over again. So, at some point, I mean, without actually rolling my eyes back in
my head, my eyes were rolling back in my head. >> Kind of sad that someone that smart um
and who could have had a decent life would run cons the way he did. He was a very, very troubled person.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, let's talk about, you know, who he was before this. Well, we know now that he had, this was actually
a surprising detail, that he had had three ex-wives, I believe, because he was he seemed pretty young to me. I, you
know, in his 40s. Turned out he was a little older than what he said he was, but um three ex-wives. And uh and what
one of his ex-wives said was that he was just running away from paying the debt he had uh for child for child uh
support. >> Support. Yeah. >> But what I think is I mean he was really running not just from the fact he owed
money but from his life because I interviewed uh one of his daughters and um and it was a very sad conversation.
She never heard from him. He had no interest in her life. Uh so he was running away from everything in
Michigan. Uh debt and the people had been in his life in Michigan, >> right? He wanted to start over. Um, so
it wasn't easy for Rick to change his name to Brian illegally. He literally had to make up a whole new person. Um,
but he makes it sound like it was no big deal. >> How long does it take to change your
identity? >> Um, takes a while, doesn't it? >> Year. Year and a half. Yeah. So, I mean,
it it it depends. >> But why not? Why not change your name legally? Just do it legally. Why go to
the trouble of forging a birth certificate? >> Well, it it was my understanding that to
to change your name legally would take years. >> That's actually not true. It It's not
easy, but it doesn't take years. In Michigan and Arizona, it would have only taken four to 6 months. So, what he did
was much harder. So, he changed his identity post 911 when authorities were really trying to clamp down on fake IDs.
Um, and they were really worried about air airport security. He used somebody else's social security
number, forged a new birth certificate, made himself eight years younger. I wish
I could do the same thing, right? Yes. >> Uh, he took in a roommate. I hope people
can see I'm using quotation marks as air quotation marks. Brian Stewart. And about a year later, Brian Stewart, who
shared the same address as Rick, had a credit score, a birth certificate, an other ID, and credit cards. And so, it
wasn't too tough for Rick Valentini to slip into the persona of Brian. >> Right. So, in October 2001, Rick
Valentini disappeared from Michigan and headed to Arizona. When I left Michigan,
driving from Michigan to Arizona, that's all I did. Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart. I
was always saying, listening for Brian Stewart, Brian Stewart, because it's a new name. The whole point of coming to
Arizona was not to be a burden. I wanted to be my own person. I wanted to be free. I wanted to at some point to go
back to my family on my terms to say it doesn't matter what happened in the past. It doesn't matter
m the mistakes that were made or all this. Look, I'm successful and I've done it and I'm happy and and I've found love
and joy in my life and I've I've I actually help people and you know and I love doing what I do.
>> So, the scary thing is is that anyone who did a background check on Brian Stewart found nothing. He was clean,
right? So, he actually got a job. >> Yeah. He was a personal trainer at Gold's Gym in Scottsdale. And I guess
that's what he meant when he says that he was helping people and that he loved it and he was doing well.
>> Right. Right. And and again, the sad thing is, okay, so you're starting over again and he still couldn't get it
right. Right. He still messed it up. And then he got really cocky and he decided
to pretend to be a graduate of the University of Michigan. >> Yeah. But that fits in. remember when he
said that he could be really successful going to the University of Michigan. Now
remember I went to Ohio State so this is very hard for me to say but that going to the University of Michigan shows that
you are a smart person. It's hard to get in there. It's a great school. So having
that pretending to be a graduate of University of Michigan burnished his image made him look like this smart
accomplished guy and he was from Michigan and and growing up he he loved University of Michigan and so it wasn't
hard to pull that off, >> right? Cuz he's mixing truth and lies together, right?
>> Well, that's what all good liars do. There's always something and we find that all the time.
>> What do you think Jamie saw in Brian Stewart? >> Well, you know, if we're going to be
impartial, I think there's a quirkiness, a kind of a charming personality in a quirky way with with Brian. Um, I think
that she was lonely. Uh, she didn't have family or friends in Arizona. And so he
provided companionship and and he you know he's kind of fun to be with. Um she had a uh a tough
relationship with her parents. Uh they wanted her to be a doctor and she didn't live up to that. So I think she felt she
disappointed them. So she wasn't as close with her parents. So here she is on her own. Um, and you know, you've got
this guy who went to University of Michigan. They have that's what he says. So, she thinks she has something in
common and you know, they're cheering together during all the games. It makes me sad to even think about it. So sad.
Yeah. We called this hour the stranger beside me and it really was. He was the stranger beside her. So by the time
Jaime disappeared, she and Brian were so isolated from just about everyone that it took months for anyone to even notice
that she was gone. [Music] [Music] Brian and Jamie dated for a little over 2 years. And Brian says that sometime in
the summer of 2008, Jaime let him move into her house. >> In an email, Jaime described you as her
trophy boyfriend and and you know, she was the one who was spending all the money. Did that bother you?
>> No, cuz I I never knew that she said that. >> Did she pay most of the bills? >> Most of the big ones? Yeah.
>> She bought two cars, >> right? >> And the other car you drove, >> right? She bought a truck, an SUV.
>> So, she made a lot more money than you did. >> Sure. So, >> was that hard? You were pretty dependent
on her financially. >> Um, >> was that tough? >> No, I didn't I didn't really feel that
way. I just felt like um it was it was definitely easier to to live with her. And it was easier that
way because um we still looked upon our future as uh as being together. We were going to get
married. >> Do you think they were going to get married? >> No. No. When he said it was easier
living with her, that's what he meant. You know, he was having all his bills paid and
he could do whatever he wanted. Um, so in in August 2009, Jaime lost her job. Uh, the real estate market crashed.
The financial crisis hit her hard. What do you think was going on in that relationship at that point?
>> Well, we don't know, but we know that she was supporting him. Um, I doubt if he was emotionally supportive for her um
going through something like this. and her her joblessness went on for a while, which must have been very difficult for
a woman who was used to succeeding and making a lot of money and doing well. She didn't tell her friends, you know,
much about how she felt about what was going on. And she was actually out of work for months. uh she was applying for
jobs all over the country, New Jersey, Florida, Denver, Colorado, and eventually she did get a job in Arizona
in again in medical sales. But on March 17th, 2010, it was her third day on the job. Brian claims that he was at Jaime's
house when she got home from work. I just remember that um she'd come home, she was in scrubs,
threw her hands up in the air, totally exasperated, and uh so it's like, you know, you seem aggravated. What's going
on? You know, and she's just like, I can't take I'm not going back there. This it was absolutely crazy.
>> And she's talking about her new job. >> Yeah. And it and I'm like, wow. Okay.
Well, what happened? What's going on? And she's like, well, you know, it was, you know, I get there and and uh you
know, she's like, I I just kind of sort of had a bad feeling. That totally contradicts the friend who
helped her get that job, uh, who reported she was excited about the job. She finally had a job. Um, you know,
Brian, Rick, whatever you want to call him, also said something like, "Well, there was a creepy guy at the job and
she wanted to get away from him." I don't believe either one of those. So, he was talking in circles and you kept
trying to bring him back to exactly what happened that night. Tell me what happened that night. And I love this
next moment because you were starting to get so frustrated with him. You accidentally or not called him by his
real name. >> Well, remember that was one of the conditions that I had to call him Brian.
So >> he got a little annoyed. Let's listen to this. >> What happened that night, Rick?
>> Brian. >> Um, >> what happened that night? That was when she came in and uh asked me to take a
week off from work and uh I was like, "Well, when?" And she's like, "Well, in the next day or two, you know, next
couple days." I can't do that. Um what are you what are you talking about? What's going on? and she's like,
"We need to we're going to go to Denver. We're going to get a house. You know, I
I've got a job offer up there. Um it, you know, it's it's time to go. I want to go. I want to get out of this state."
Well, okay. This is awfully short notice, you know. And then it was I want to go to Denver. We need to go.
We need to find a house. Uh and and we're going to get married. Well, now wait a second. Now you and I
know the rules here. Okay, I'm not getting married to you until I find out what the heck's going on between you and
your dad. >> This is where it really gets crazy. So, he's taking two truths and using them to
lie to you to your face, >> right? So, um, as we mentioned, she did have a complicated relationship with her
parents. And so and and Rick Brian Brian uh clearly knew about it and wanted to use that and and then of course he used
a truth um when she was as I had mentioned earlier she was looking for jobs. She was looking in Denver,
Colorado for a job and and had hoped to get one but she did not get that job. I just can't get over how he just calmly
sits there and makes up these stories to your face. I mean, he had already done it on the witness stand, too. Right. So,
>> Right. But also, it was his entire life. He had lied his entire life. That was
the one thing we always heard about him. He's a liar. And um and sometimes people
like they think, "Oh, particularly women, oh, she'll believe me." And um so yeah, he yeah, his face never changed
whether he was telling the truth or not. His face is the same. >> Well, that that's a good point because I
felt like he was looking at me as a woman, like a dumb woman every time. And so I just kind of let him believe that
about me. You know, I was a very good listener. He never asked me a single question whenever I talked to him. It
was always him running his stories by me. And I just listened. Just listened. He probably was trying to figure out
what seemed to stick and what didn't. >> Definitely. Yes. >> What would work? What what seemed to
really uh resonate with you? >> Yeah. Yeah. Can I take a minute to tell you I don't know if you remember the
story, but I was with him once um on one of our visits and um I had said to them,
"Please don't leave me in the room with him for 4 hours again." I said, "Just give me two hours and then come knock on
the door." And I always had to have a guard with me, right? So this guard kept like le he was so bored listening to
this guy go on and on. He kept leaning out the door to see if they were coming to save us. And at one point he stepped
out and the door smacked shut behind him. And without missing a beat, Brian Rick Brian says, "Quick, take off your
clothes and get on the table." And I laughed and I said, "Oh, come on." But like that's how he was treating me.
>> Oh, that is the creepiest. I remember this now, but that is one of the creepiest stories. That's what you don't
want to happen, >> right? Oh, it was so bizarre. Anyway, after a little over 2 years, he says it
was a dramafree breakup. I mean, come on. She was leaving and he was taking his things and going. And he says they
even slept in the same bed and he left the next morning for work. Jamie was missing for nearly 2 and 1/2 months and
no one even noticed. >> I think um her friend said the same thing that it did take a while but then
people started noticing that she was not posting or emailing anybody. So, you know, it's a little bit like telephone.
Has anybody heard from Jamie? Has anybody heard from Jamie? And so, he's realizing that people are going to start
looking at at him as well. So, he wants to look like another concerned person. Where's Jamie? And so, he calls someone
and and says, "Look, you know, uh, I'm worried about her." And the other thing I think really plays a part in this, and
this is so sad. We heard this over and over again from her friends. You don't know somebody who's going to disappear
like this. So, it was hard for people to believe that her boyfriend would do away with her.
>> They just didn't believe it. That doesn't happen to people, you know, is what we hear all the time on 48 hours.
And we really heard it with this case. >> That's so true. Yeah. >> Well, it's interesting that as soon as
the police, you know, they started looking because people reported him missing. her her parents reported her
missing and and they do track him down and he's driving her car and even they thought he was a little odd. So that's
the reason why they wanted to check him out. Police arrested him on a warrant for
driving on a suspended license and took him in for questioning and they held him
on charges of forgery and identity theft until they could make a case for murder.
When they asked him where Jamie was, this is what he told detectives. >> So, Thursday morning, I'm up at 2:30,
take my shower, eat breakfast, and I'm out the door by 3:45. That's the last I saw her.
>> Okay. >> Um, I got home around noon. There were two of the big suitcases missing. There
was a carry-on missing. Um, and she was gone. Uh, detectives searched Jaime's home and
her suitcases were still there. The car that she drove was also there and so was
her passport, but her wallet and credit cards and driver's license were missing.
Then, with Brian in custody, they got a warrant to search his apartment and found some really alarming evidence.
>> What I probably will never forget the rest of my life because it's so disturbing is when they went to the
apartment, he had he had rented right before quote unquote uh you know she disappeared. Um they
found her wallet and several several of her credit cards were on the desk and what was saddest to me was in an
envelope they found all these little cutup pieces of what turned out to be her driver's license. Right. And you
know, her cell phone was also at his apartment. But as usual, you know, Brian is not phased by this very damaging
evidence. And he had an explanation for all of this. And I don't think anyone listening is going to believe it. But
this is what he claimed. >> She's still alive. So this all this hubbhub is is a lot of horse crap.
>> What do you mean she's still alive? You're saying Jamie is still alive? >> She's still alive.
>> How do you know? >> Because until I'm proven differently, I know what her plans were. I know what she
wanted to do. I know what she wanted to accomplish, >> which was >> leave Arizona and get away from her dad.
Are you saying that you helped Jaime change her identity? >> Yeah, I showed her how to do it.
>> So, are you saying that you made up the idea that she had a job in Denver? >> No. Uh-uh.
>> He's now totally changing his story. First, he's telling you Jamie went to Denver, and now she didn't go to Denver.
She just got up and disappeared to get away from her dad, who, as we mentioned before, she did have a complicated
relationship with. What is he trying to say? >> He's now saying that she was so tired of
her own life that she asked him how he did it. And what's so hard about that is this was again this very accomplished
woman and very buttoned down and would she do something like that? >> Right. Do you think she knew that he had
changed his identity? Do you think she found out? No. >> Well, she might have found out, right?
>> Something happened that night. So maybe she did find out. Maybe during that time
off she was looking into without a job. When I say time off, when she wasn't working, she looked into him. Something
happened on March 17th. So um Okay. So he's changing his story now. Did she go to Denver? Did she disappear? This is
what you asked him. >> So did she have that job? Did she take a job in Denver or not?
>> I don't know. >> So is she What name is she operating? >> Oh, I don't know that. So,
>> what do you mean? If you helped her, wouldn't you know it now? >> Well, you have to understand I I helped
her from a general standpoint. I showed her how I did it. Okay. Now, um there were books. Okay. Uh she read
the books. She knew they were there. She she had all of that. Plus, she had me. And that was the thing that I told her
this is that the real key is you got to have money. You got to have cash. Okay. >> She didn't have any cash.
>> Oh, she had Well, >> she didn't have any cash, Brian. All her money. She left behind all her credit
cards. She left behind all her accounts. >> Sure. you know, I I mean, he wasn't expecting
that I would know that that she had money still sitting in her account. She simply disappeared. And I think what's
really important to know is that she didn't have a reason to disappear, right? >> She didn't have a reason. She had a
brand new job. She wasn't running from things. She didn't have ex-husbands or children she didn't want to pay child
support for. There was no reason for her to want to change. >> This next exchange kept me from dating
online for many, many years. For a decade. >> You used your credit cards to go on
dating sites. >> Mhm. >> That's nervy, isn't it? >> Yeah, it's pretty nerdy. >> And pretty insensitive, too, isn't it?
>> Um, >> yeah. >> You know, a little because Well, let me let me explain. You used her credit
cards to go on dating sites to meet other women. >> Well, you know what? Look, Jamie Jaime
was leaving. Jaime had her own life to live. And >> so, use your own money. Why did you use
hers? >> Well, I did. Okay. That was the whole point. >> When you asked him what gave him the
right to use Jaime's credit cards, he said he was doing it for her. Can you explain that rationale, please?
>> Well, I can't really explain it. I could tell you what his thoughts were. Um, I
mean, I was so offended by that. Um, as a reporter and a woman, the idea that he
would claim to me, here she disappeared, she left behind the credit cards. Um, and that he used those credit cards uh
to meet other people was so offensive. But what he claimed was she was still alive.
I know nobody will believe me, but this is what he said. That she was still alive and he was giving her cash and
leaving it at her house where she would come in, I guess in the middle of the night, pick it up, um, and then
disappear again. I mean, who's going to believe that? But he said it to me just like that was the most normal thing to
say. >> Yeah, it's super crazy. So, this next exchange feels to me like the final car chase in a movie.
>> It seems to me that when you're preparing for trial, if you could have found her, you would have found her with
your lawyers. That's all you would have needed and you wouldn't have gone on trial at all.
>> Well, now, okay, just because I could have sent her an email, just because I could have called a number doesn't mean
that she wouldn't have switched it out at that point. Okay. Because >> But you didn't even try.
How am I supposed to try? >> She's gone. No one sees her again. March 18th. >> Jamie's dead, isn't she?
>> It's not hard to get new ID. >> You said it takes time. You yourself said that, Brian.
>> I said it takes time. >> She didn't have that time. >> I said it takes time to create a new
persona. To get the ID is nothing, >> right? She didn't have the time to create the new persona.
>> Yes, she did. Jamie took $100,000 and what could be three different identifications and she left the state
of Arizona. >> Do you remember how you felt in that moment? >> Well, it it's just like where do you go
with that? This is a man I mean what was really sad. I mean what I was trying to
make a point there. He's saying she's still alive and he's on trial for her murder. And if she was still alive, he
would have reached out to her and said, "Save me. Prove please that I didn't kill you." I mean, what's what you have
to be thinking as you're sitting there when you're talking is he killed her. And he has the nerve to sit there and
say, "She's still alive." Um, it's not only old, it's just incredibly sad and uh aggravating.
>> Yes. very um he was called to the stand, the witness stand as Rick Wayne Valentini,
aka Brian Stewart, but his lawyer called him Brian. I mean, so crazy. She walked
him through his name change and the rest of his story gently and then the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, uh took over
and pounded him. I mean, I remember the judge basically outside of the view of the jury saying, "We get it. We get it."
You know, um, so just after he was convicted and prior to his sentencing, he agreed to an interview with you. Um,
what do you recall about that day? >> Well, actually, you made me remember all of this. You know, we had amazing
access. I've never had that kind of access inside a prison. Um the day that we were with him, his lawyer came to see
him and was shocked to hear that we were there because he had not told her he was
talking to the press. That is a nightmare for a defense attorney. I mean, he lied to everyone, including his
own lawyer. >> All along you've told a lot of different stories. >> Sure. >> And they're contradictory stories.
>> Sure. >> I mean, you admit you've lied about things. Sure. >> Why should somebody believe you now?
>> I'm not I'm not asking for people to believe me. I'm not, you know, I to me I don't really care what people think.
>> I think he does care. But so have you heard it all from him? >> No. Which is, you know, oddly upsetting.
they go away and they never call me again. But the last conversation I had with him, I was at the airport on my way
home after all of you know after the the interview and um he asked me he started
asking me questions which he had never done like what's your last name and oh are you Jewish and it was so bizarre
like uh all of a sudden he's interested in me which was sort of creepy right and
I remember calling my best friend at the time and saying you know I actually feel
bad for this knucklehead. Like he just, you know, he just doesn't get it. He can't get out of his own way. And she
said to me, "Save that for someone who deserves it." >> I agree with her. So I Yeah, I do think
that because you spent so much time with him that you saw him more um as this guy
who could have had a great future and threw it away. He was he hurt himself. I saw him as I I couldn't get past. He was
a con man who killed this young woman who did have a great future and was just looking for
how she could succeed and impress her parents and he took that all away from all of them.
>> Um her parents were uh wonderful sweet people who um you know blamed themselves
in part. They felt they might have been too tough on her and they never got to a
chance to say that to her. >> Yeah, they were very sweet and I remember her mother saying she carries
her receiving blanket with her for the day that they find her. It was so sad >> and that turned out to be very important
years later. >> Yeah, you can. >> Yeah. So, um I don't know 6 and 1/2 years later, I was in Italy on vacation
and my phone rang and it was one of the detectives and when a detective calls me, I always answer. And he said,
"You're not going to believe this, but they found Jaime's body." >> And they did. Um, it it still makes me
sad because we did, you and I both talked to him um afterwards and what struck me was how moved they were
>> and happy that they were able to finally bring her home to her parents. And so,
um, you know, the parents will continue grieving, but at least it there's like a
a bit of closure to that. They know. >> They know he murdered her. They know where he put her and they could bury her
themselves. >> Yeah. And that's always so important to these families, right? They just want
their they want their people home. They want to know where they are, right? They
want to be able to grieve properly because sometimes when you don't know and I've done too many of these stories
where >> the person has not been found. That's that >> really kind of gets in the way of the
parents grieving properly because there's so much guilt. I should be looking for I didn't do enough to look
for. And so finally these parents can say she's at rest and we can mourn her properly.
So Erin, ultimately what's the lesson of this of this case? What should our audience take away from this?
>> Well, sadly, I think it is that I keep thinking of our friends of this doesn't
happen to us and yet it does. uh time and time again. Sadly, at 48 hours, um if you're worried of you're seeing signs
of a problem in a relationship, you tell your friend or your sister or your, you
know, whoever you know. And um and you when someone doesn't respond, disappear for a while, you you know, you don't let
that go. You don't just assume they're fine. This is a reminder to all of us to stay in touch with the people we care
about. It's so true. It's so true. Well, thank you again for joining me for this
podcast. You know, again, it was my first hour for 48 hours and now my first podcast for 48 hours. And it's such a
pleasure having you. >> But you know what? There'll be plenty of conversations with killers.
>> On the next episode of Killer Conversation, Peter Vans joins me again. this time to discuss two infamous
teenage killers who made headlines around the world but only granted interviews to Peter for 48 hours.
>> Did you and Sebastian Burns meticulously plan the murder of your family? >> Absolutely not.
[Music] >> 48 hours killer conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing and sound design, factchecking, and additional
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify. Tune in next Tuesday for an allnew episode of Killer Conversation. Follow Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, a special two-part edition of 48
Hours. [Music] You don't know exactly what you're going to be finding up there and and so just
driving up there in in itself, you're kind of walking into the unknown. I I believe I was a little nervous.
>> I would describe it as being absolutely savage. This was someone who used a baseball bat
to kill the family. What I see is an attack that is not only calculated and carried out with
precision. There was blood all over the room on the ceiling on the floor. I also
see a crime scene that smacks of the murderer having a very very personal vendetta.
>> Somebody just went off the deep end and once they started killing they either
enjoyed it or they couldn't stop themselves. In an upper middle class neighborhood of
an upper middle class community, [Music] three unsuspecting and undeserving human
beings were savagely beaten to death. >> There's blood. They're not breathing. I
don't think it's safe here >> by somebody who they knew. Heat. [Music] [Music] Heat.
[Music] [Music] It was a plan, a well rehearsed, wellthoughtout plan. What happened in this house on a hot
summer night in 1994 brought tragedy and mystery to this quiet neighborhood in Belleview, Washington. Just after 2:00
in the morning on July 13th, police were called to a crime that would take them 10 years to bring to justice. Had you
ever seen anything like it? Never. >> James Jude Konat is a senior deputy prosecutor in King County.
He and a team of detectives have been haunted by this crime and the killers who got away.
>> They think that they are smarter than other people in the world. And I know that sounds just kind of a broad
statement, but I I really believe they believe that >> the search for the truth would lead
police to another country through a web of intriguing clues. Could this screenplay that described a murder
unlock the mystery? And in the end, would a sophisticated undercover operation set in a makebelieve world of
crime catch the real killers? The story begins with a call for help. >> Emergency. What are you reporting?
>> Uh uh my friends, his mom and dad, we think they're dead. >> Sebastian Burns and his friend Atif Rafé
had stumbled on a horrific scene. Atif's parents had been murdered. There is nothing that I can imagine about my
parents that could have justified anyone to do what was done to them. >> Sultana Raf's mother was the first to be
killed. >> Sebastian, what did you see when you walked through that door? >> We saw mom
lying on the floor. >> Tariq Rafé was the next to be murdered. >> We could see There was blood around him
and it it was clear that he had been attacked. >> Why do you think that they're dead?
>> There's blood. They're not breathing. Uh there's there's blood all over his face.
>> It was basically an overkill. >> Detective Bob Thompson has been on the case since the night it began.
>> It just looked like someone had hit him 40 or 50 times. >> Please. Fast. Okay. Yes, they're on the
way. >> They're on the way. >> We'll be outside. >> Okay. Go ahead. As the boys waited for
help to arrive, a third victim, Aif's autistic older sister, Bosma, was clinging to life, moaning in her
bedroom. >> The third victim was autistic. It would make sense that she's murdered last
because everybody knows that she can't make a 911 call. >> Bosma died a few hours later at the
hospital, taking with her the secret of who killed the Rafé family. The Rafes had just moved to Belleview
from Vancouver, Canada. Sultana had a doctorate in nutrition, but devoted her life to raising her gifted son and
disabled daughter. >> I think she was um certainly an extraordinary person. >> Do you miss your mom?
>> I do. >> What do you miss most about her? >> Well, the the mere presence is enough,
but uh she knew me in a way that uh I suspect that no one ever will. Um, she was always able to look right through
the uh, adolescent sort of pomposities that I might have had and remind me that uh, I was just uh, a silly kid at times.
>> Tariq Rafé was a structural engineer who had worked on buildings around the world.
>> In a sense, we were all like kids around him or like my mom was too and we were
all I guess sort of in his orbit. Um, he was a brilliant person. uh probably a far better mathematician than I will
ever be. >> No one could understand who would take the lives of this quiet family and spare
their only son. Detectives began to look more closely at the crime scene. >> What's the problem there?
>> There's been some kind of breakin. >> Sebastian had used the words breakin to
report what had happened. >> Is it locked or is not locked? >> Unlocked. Just looking at that room, you
started realizing this this looks like someone set it up. Boxes were tipped over, drawers were opened, but nothing
appeared to have gone through. That night, when police asked what was missing, Aif said two things, his
discman and a VCR. >> Someone came in, murdered three people, and took his Walkman and a VCR.
I mean, it makes no sense. Detectives probe deeper. Who were these teenage boys who reported the crime?
>> The 199293 school year. >> Sebastian Burns and a Tif Rafé had been best friends since high school.
>> What' you like about high school? >> I liked being a kid. I liked having free
time and I liked hanging around with other kids and I just liked being young. The boys
shared a sarcastic sense of humor and an interest in reading and debate. >> What would you guys talk about? What
were you interested in? >> You know, it was things like uh Shakespeare and philosophy and uh chem
and things like that. >> They had a lot in common. They became very good friends because they were both
precocious. They were both intelligent. >> Sarah Issac is Sebastian's high school
sweetheart. >> He went to parties. He was athletic and he became friends with a Tif and sort of
showed a Tif how to dress. He'd introduced a Tif to girls. He sort of helped Tif be a a stud like he was.
>> That's going back a bit. >> Sebastian was raised in a loving family with English roots.
>> There was a lot of respect in our household. I mean um you didn't talk back to my parents. So, you didn't swear
in the house. >> Sebastian's sister, Tiffany. >> We both grew up playing classical cello,
so we had music lessons and we had to practice every day after school. >> All right.
>> In 2005, Tiffany was a TV reporter at the CBS station in Cleveland. She can't
say enough about her little brother. >> He's very smart. I mean, he's definitely
what you would call an intellectual. He's so well read. He's got so many fascinating things to say. Sebastian
became a member of the Royal Canadian Aircadets and was given an award by Prince Edward. A tif made it to the Ivy
League, attending Cornell University. It was the summer of their freshman year in
college when the murders took place. >> It sort of is like a jigsaw puzzle. You know, you just take that piece and you
put it here and you start you start fitting it together and pretty soon you get a picture.
Police took Sebastian and Aif to the station and examined them for traces of blood. They found nothing. When asked
where they had been that evening, the boys provide a full account. At 8:30, they drove to a restaurant for a bite to
eat. Then they went to a 950 showing of the Lion King. >> Why do you remember them?
>> They were acting annoying, obnoxious. Everywhere they went, the people who came into contact with them remembered
them. >> After the movie, they stopped at another restaurant and left the waitress a $6
tip on a $9 tab. >> They don't usually do that, especially young guys. Young guys don't tip very
well. >> But something else troubled police. How could the boys remember so much detail
about where they'd been that evening and yet not recall key moments at the murder
scene? The police decided to interview Sebastian and Aif again and detectives recorded the conversation.
>> I found my mom. >> Can't remember. >> What did you do? >> I I may have gone up to her. I I can't
remember. I don't know what I did. Um I can't remember. >> Did you go walk over to your dad?
>> Um I don't think so. No. >> Did you touch your dad? >> I don't think so. >> Well, you'd know though, wouldn't you?
>> Yeah. I I don't I I I don't know if I No, but I don't I don't think I >> see I don't understand this. Aif, your
your sister is moaning. She's hurt. >> Yes. >> And you don't want to help her? >> Detectives wanted to know why Aif didn't
help his dying sister even though he heard her through her bedroom door. >> How hurt is she?
>> I didn't know. >> Okay. You don't know how hurt she is. >> I don't know how hurt she is. All I know
is that I can't I I I can't do anything. >> Sebastian and Aif were witnesses. By the
time they left at the end of these statements, were they suspects? >> Yes, definitely sus. By the time they
left, they were suspects. >> You know what? I I think you know who it is. >> They
I would tell you I would tell you if I knew who did it. And investigators thought they not only knew who, they
also knew why. >> $300 to $400,000 is about to slip through his fingers as she lives. Are
you saying that didn't go to the aid of his sister because he didn't want to save his sister?
>> Aif didn't go to the aid of his sister because unless she died, the whole plan came crumbling down on
them. 3 days after the murders, relatives gathered in Belleview to bury the Rafes
in a traditional Muslim ceremony, but the only surviving member of the immediate family was nowhere to be
found. >> They were wondering where's the teeth? Where's the where's the son? >> On the day of the funeral, the Raf's
only son was on a bus headed across the border to Canada. And with him was his best friend, Sebastian Burns.
Sebastian and Aif were now in Vancouver, Canada, out of reach of the Belleview police and an investigation that
targeted them for the murders of the Rafé family. Did the boys go to Vancouver or did they flee to Vancouver?
From our perspective, they they fled back to Vancouver. >> He didn't flee. He went home.
>> Their sudden bus trip across the border only raised more suspicion. Even though
both boys were Canadian citizens, >> how do you flee a country getting on a Greyhound bus?
>> In fact, a representative from the Canadian consulate informed the Belleview police of their trip in
advance. She contacted the Belleview Police Department to say, "These guys are leaving. They're going home if
that's okay with you." And >> she was told, quote, "Sure." >> Mhm. >> She then tells the boys, "It's okay to
go." And they leave. That is not fleeing. >> It is not fleeing. I think it's >> to ask permission.
>> Aif and Sebastian both had my numbers. They knew I was even in the process of
getting them a pager so we could keep in contact. And they're gone. They don't tell me where they're at. They know I'm
investigating the murders of their parents and they're gone. >> Detective Thompson was a veteran cop.
>> This is the other. >> His gut told him that the boys were guilty, but he just didn't have the evidence to
prove it. Investigators kept combing the house. >> Is it lock? It's not locked. >> They found no forced entry. There was,
however, an eerie clue. A forensic tool, Luminol, showed blood on the shower walls. The killer had used the shower
before leaving. The person was so comfortable and calm and collected that he or she might then decide perhaps
they'll have a shower before they go. It is inconceivable. Could that be the reason why the boys
who had discovered the bodies at that bloody crime scene didn't have a trace of blood on their hair, their hands, or
anywhere on their bodies? >> Are you a killer, Sebastian? >> No, absolutely not.
>> Did you hold that bat in your hands and kill those three people? >> No, I didn't.
>> You're not lying to me. >> No. >> Would you have ever done anything, Aif, to hurt your parents?
>> No. The single most distressing thing about this entire experience is the fact that
I would even have to speak out and say, "Yeah, no, I I did not do that." >> Okay.
>> Even without physical evidence, detectives were determined. They began to build a case against the boys based
on their odd behavior following the murders. >> They cooperated. They did everything
that was asked of them. However, when they did things, they they had this air or this attitude about doing it.
>> They honed in on their demeanor at the crime scene and questioned why they sat
in front of the house if they believed an intruder might still be there. >> He's out on the curb, you know, 20 yards
away from the the front door where this supposed killer might be in the house and he's waiting for the police on the
curb. Well, the T7 a cigarette. I'm not sure that anything that we did made any sense. I I was not thinking in a normal
way. >> Police also couldn't make sense of why a thief would notice that his discman and
VCR were missing. >> He's walking around the house claiming to discover the fact the VCR is missing.
and ultimately while his mother and father and sister uh lay in a state of carnage.
Let's not mince words here. It is carnage. He claims to have discovered that the
walkman was missing from his bedroom. >> And they've decided that my son and his
friend are the guilty parties. They've decided that. I believe him to be totally innocent
as is a thief and they have been damned. >> Sebastian's family and friends rallied
around him and a teeth. >> I remember sitting on those steps with Sebastian. I remember sitting on that
field. >> Sebastian's former girlfriend Sarah Isac says she knows his character better than
anyone. Have you ever thought to yourself, maybe there was something I missed about
Sebastian that I just didn't see? >> There's nothing that anyone could tell me. There's never a moment when someone
could tell me something that made me think honestly, maybe he did it. I never had to face that moment ever. I know
Sebastian. He was and is my very, very good friend. Do the cops investigating this just need
to get home to dinner? I mean, why didn't they follow up the leads that came their way?
>> And there were other compelling leads. Within days of the crime, police received a tip from a reliable informant
that someone had offered $20,000 to kill an East Indian family that had recently
moved from Vancouver to Belleview. There's no physical evidence that links Aif and Sebastian to the crime. their
alibis check out and now you get this lead from an informant in Canada that somebody had been bragging about a hit
on an East Indian family in Belleview, Washington tells me that's the direction now you
should be focusing your investigation since there's no evidence against these boys.
>> Well, there is evidence against those boys. There was a lot of evidence against those boys and it was all
circumstantial. It wasn't evidence to convict them certainly. Is it fair to say that you didn't properly check out
this lead in Vancouver? >> Um, you know, there are it may be fair to say that that lead was not fully
checked out. You get all kinds of tips that come in and you have to weigh them. But the
leads didn't go that direction. The leads went directly to Canada and the leads followed, we followed those leads
to Sebastian and Aif. >> Aif, why don't you talk to police? >> On the advice of a lawyer, the boys
decided to stop cooperating with Belleview authorities. >> The minute we went to Canada, Burns and
Rafé wouldn't talk to us at all. They were telling other people not to talk to us.
So Thompson kept digging and found what he thought was a disturbing clue from their past.
>> We started looking through their high school yearbook and Sebastian Burns was
uh in a high school play called The Rope about two kids who commit the perfect murder.
[Music] >> These are words that Sebastian's character said on stage. Do you mind
reading it? An immaculate murder. I have killed. I have killed for the sake of danger and
for the sake of killing. >> Ariana McGregor performed in the West Vancouver High School production of Rope
along with Sebastian. >> The character in the play is somebody who's arrogant and um believes he's
better than everybody else. And Sebastian had a quality of being superior. He knew he was intelligent,
knew he was good-looking. >> What was Rope about? The gimmick of the play is that there's somebody is
murdered at the start of the play and the villains put him into a box and then they invite guests over. Everybody's at
this party wondering when the last guest is going to show up and nobody knows that actually he's in the box at the
front of the play. And so, um, there's lots of suspenseful giggles all the way through because everybody in the
audience knows that there's this, uh, person, this this thing in the box. See, black is quite ethical. Paul,
>> your character on stage says, "We've always said, you and I, that moral concepts of right and wrong don't hold
for the intellectually superior. The only crime we can commit is a mistake." There's some people who believe those
are words that the real Sebastian Burns might say. Mom, that's ridiculous. There was no time ever during any
performance or any rehearsal that anybody was ever thinking anything serious about any of the supposed
intellectual philosophies in this play or or anything like that. >> But detectives believed the fictional
murder story did inspire the real life crime. Even more chilling, the weapon was the same, a baseball bat. Well,
that's just a huge coincidence. I think Sebastian was actually mortified when when he realized that he was a suspect
in the baseball bat killings of the Rafé because he said, "Crips, what's going to
happen when they find out about the play?" >> How does the play end? >> Their superior figures them out. Someone
who is actually more intelligent than they are uh figures it out and they get caught.
As the investigation continued in Belleview, the boys were living well in Vancouver.
With some of the money Aif inherited from his parents' estate, they bought a convertible and rented an apartment
together with another high school pal. I think I'll stay here forever. >> Jimmy Moshi.
Behind drawn curtains, they hid from the media who were constantly in pursuit of
them and their story. >> Hello, is Aif there? >> 987. >> But while they weren't talking to the
police, the police were listening to them. >> Hello. >> Oh, yeah. >> Every word they spoke at home or in
their car was being recorded. How are you doing? >> Um, okay. I guess >> the boys had no idea they were now the
targets of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the RCMP. >> The RCMP applied for and ultimately uh obtained
authorization to do wire taps. On April 10th, 1995, RCMP investigators intercepted this phone message.
>> This is Quimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment
with Gregory tomorrow, Tuesday, April 11th. >> Sebastian could never have imagined that
he was about to fall into a trap set by one of the most sophisticated undercover
operators in the world. There was no doubt in my mind that yes, Sebastian Burns was responsible for this and we
were in fact going to get a full confession from him. By April of 1995, Sebastian Burns and
Aif Rafé were Canada's most famous teenage murder suspects. I remember a time when we're at a bus
stop and someone drove by and rolled down the window and yelled murderers. That was typical. They were paras. They
were hated. >> I was unable to go to college. I was unable to get a job. >> But the boys had a plan to make their
fortune and live out a lifelong dream. They started work on their very own screenplay about two best friends
accused of murdering a family. The movie was going to be about Sebastian Barren and a Tifra and the
injustice that was heaped upon them as a result of the suspicion about their involvement in this triple aggravated
murder case in Belleview. >> They called it the Great Despisers. We were worried that it would sound a
bit nerdy because having the word great in the title sounds that it makes sound kind of nerdy and uh if we'd called that
for example just the despisers um that would have uh been more unimpeachably cool. However, we we
decided to have the courage to stick with this nerdy title. While the boys worked on what they say is their
fictional story about two friends falsely accused, they had no idea the real life plotline was about to take an
astonishing turn. >> This is Quimper's hair salon calling for Sebastian to confirm his appointment
with >> that simple message from a local hair salon was the moment the RCMP was waiting for.
I think they were very vulnerable to whatever the RCMP had in store for them. These were kids who' lived pretty
sheltered lives. >> When Sebastian was finished at Crimper's salon, a stranger was waiting. And when
Mr. Burns comes out of the salon, the undercover operator just approaches him. What they call the cold approach.
>> He seemed to me like some kind of an entrepreneur. He walks up to him and says, "Hey buddy, can you give me a
hand? I seem to have locked my keys in the car." >> So, he asked me for a ride to his hotel
and I gave him a ride. >> The stranger took Sebastian to a bar and bought him a drink for his trouble.
>> I was impressed by that. And um I was also sort of intrigued, I guess, or or excited about the way that he seemed
um so ready to be interested in me. Sebastian told his new friend that he and his buddies had written a
screenplay, but he didn't have a job and needed financing. The friend said he knew someone who could help.
>> Ultimately, the goal was to get Sebastian to meet with the next guy up the chain, and it worked perfectly.
Sebastian thought he was about to meet a connected businessman, but it was this man,
Sergeant Hlett of the RCMP. We cannot show you his face. >> I don't think there's an undercover team
like this anywhere in the world. And I say that very seriously. >> The best of the best.
>> The best. The RCMP spent months preparing to manipulate their target. >> They had access to fancy cars, posh
hotel suites, weapons, false international documents, beautiful women. >> Posing as professional mobsters, the
RCMP set up the first meeting with Sebastian at a strip club. How important was this movie to
Sebastian Burns? It >> was just about his whole uh life. >> The crime boss told Sebastian he did
have cash to invest in his screenplay, but Sebastian would have to earn it. Sebastian had no idea he was being
offered work in a makebelieve world of crime. Jobs were also promised to Aif and their pal Jimmy Moshi.
>> I hope these guys are solid, man. These guys are never going to betray me. Ever.
All right. Never ever. >> Sebastian's first assignment. Transport a stolen car for the crime
boss. >> He had nothing. And then he was offered something. He was offered something that
was criminal, something that he probably wouldn't have thought was a good idea had he had something else going on in
his life. >> He was only paid $200 for the job. And he wasn't happy. >> He was disgusted.
>> He made it clear he wasn't happy. He uh told us he could make more money than
that stealing his videos out of stores. >> It was essential to the undercover operation that Sebastian continue
working for the organization. So the next staged crime is easier for more cash. >> What I want you guys to do, which is no
big deal, it's pretty straightforward. Uh >> Sebastian and Jimmy Moshi go from one
bank to another laundering money. >> Cash is here. Just taking deposit into this account. When you guys run the
first time, next time a different bank. >> This time for a day's work, they get paid $2,000.
>> So cool. This has been the thing I ever been awkward this morning. >> I couldn't help but be excited about
having $2,000 put in my hand and I'd hardly had to do anything for it. >> Months go by. The undercover operators
take Sebastian to posh hotels trying to build trust and draw him out. How's the movie?
go out there and start filming or anything, but script is uh fair enough. >> Did you sense that Sebastian felt he was
smarter than you? >> Oh, there's no doubt. He made it clear and told us that on more than one
occasion. >> Smart. I'm one of the most intelligent people in the world. >> Slowly, the undercover operators bring
up the investigation in Belleview. Hlett tries to get Sebastian to confess by telling him he already knows what
happened. >> I know you did it. You know you did it. The police know you. All right. I know
that. >> Sebastian doesn't admit guilt, but he confides in the mobsters that if the
police did find something to tie him to the crime, he might want them to destroy
it. And he has a very practical theory. As one of the best known murder suspects in
Canada, he is confident that his movie would make millions if he is suddenly proven innocent.
>> And a film with that kind of promotion because the thing is as it is right now,
it's like controversy, right? Which in itself promotes, right? But this is like, oh, you're heroes. It suddenly
goes up to 25, 30 million. >> Taking their cue again from their target, the businessmen raise the
stakes. They tell Sebastian that the Belleview police have physical evidence tying him to the crime.
>> Well, I tell you, they're coming to lock your ass up. >> There's your friends.
>> To make it seem real, Hlett shows him this phony memo on Belleview police letter head detailing the evidence
linking Sebastian to the murders. here. Just read this piece of >> The mobsters offer to destroy the
so-called evidence, but they need Sebastian to tell them exactly what happened in the Rafé house the night of
the murders. >> Well, I want your help and you need my help. So, you tell me what went on down there
and I'm going to tell you how I'm going to take care of your problem. Finally, on July 18th, 1995,
one year after the murders, Sebastian meets the crime boss, Sergeant Hlett, at the Ocean Point Resort, and the cameras
are rolling. He walks into this hotel room and takes off his shoes. He stretches out on a love
seat. It's only then that Mr. Burns lets his guard down and the dirty little secret that he's been protecting for the
last 12 or 13 months starts to unravel on video for the whole wide world to see.
>> It has taken 3 months of undercover work to get to this moment. >> Both guys are coming in and say, "Hey,
let's go off your family and get all their money." >> Basically, essentially, yeah. I mean
>> and he uh told me the details how him and T R F R F R F R F R F R F R F R F R
F R FE did commit the murders in Belleview. >> How did you three people at once?
>> Uh otherwise when I >> extremely extremely cold individual it's phenomenal, man.
The next day, Sebastian brings a teeth to the crime boss to tell his story. >> How does it feel when your parents
thought it's just pretty rotten? But it's tempered by the fact that I felt that way. It was necessary to I guess um
achieve what I wanted to achieve in this life. That's all the police needed to hear.
>> Those were solid, strong confessions that only the individuals that responsible for that murder would be
able to sit down and tell it like it was. >> Cheers. >> Sebastian, Aif, and Jimmy Moshi are all
arrested. >> You have anything to say? >> But this case is just beginning. Sebastian says he's lying, that
undercover officers intimidated him into making a false confession. I believe that if I'd cross them that they would
have me killed. Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé, best friends who once dreamed of making it
big in movies, were now behind bars. But no sooner were Sebastian and Aif arrested than the same Canadian
government that set a trap to catch them led an international battle to spare their lives.
>> We should not be sending anybody back. >> The case went all the way up to Canada's
Supreme Court. Persons who leave the country and commit offenses outside of the country should expect that they will
be punished under the laws of the jurisdiction in which they committed um the crime.
[Music] Sending the boys back across the border to Washington meant they would face the
death penalty if convicted. A punishment Canada had long since abolished and considered inhumane.
>> We never knew when we were going to be leaving for the United States. >> And every time we heard, oh, there may
be a trial, you know, next year, then it became the next year. And that lasted for about four years where we thought
that we were a week away from extradition. After 6 years of legal wrangling, the
King County prosecutor in Seattle agreed to Canada's demands not to seek the death penalty.
Sebastian and Aif, now 25year-old men, were finally extradited to face murder charges.
Mr. Raf, you're charged. Mr. Burns, you're charged in the cause numbers that I just read with three counts of
aggravated murder in the first degree. >> If convicted, the penalty would now be
life with no parole. >> That goes with the motion to dismiss. >> They were appointed a team of attorneys.
Representing Sebastian was Terresa Olsen, an ardent, if eccentric, public defender who believed in the boy's
innocence. >> Of course, they didn't do the killings. the the the evidence is clear that they
didn't do the killings. >> Olsen worked tirelessly on the case, running down leads and witnesses.
But in the summer of 2002, the case took a bizarre turn. Guards at the King County Jail reported
seeing Olen having sex with Sebastian during an attorney client meeting. >> Shut up.
>> The well publicized scandal even caught the attention of late night comic Jay
Leno. male lawyer in Seattle is in trouble for having sex in jail with her client who is a murderer. How creepy is
that? Huh? Sex with a lawyer >> and brought the trial to a grinding halt. >> This court had no choice
but to appoint new counsel. >> Sebastian's new attorneys were a dream team. Ivy League trained Jeff Robinson
and Song Richardson. >> There is a lot at stake for Sebastian Burns and we will be fighting till the
end. >> 187's a retired artist. >> They were among Seattle's best and most expensive criminal defense lawyers.
>> Exactly. >> Along with Amanda Lee, they staunchly believed in the boy's innocence and
agreed to take the high-profile case at a public defender's wage. They have been
essentially judged and treated as though they were guilty from the beginning when
the evidence just isn't there. >> What kind of pressure is on all of your shoulders as we approach this trial?
>> Nothing more or less than the rest of Sebastian Burn's natural life. >> They were up against two of the most
seasoned and respected prosecutors in Seattle. >> I want to talk. >> We're going to get in. Let's sit up.
Roger David Heiser would be joining James Conat on the case. >> It's not justice, it's the truth. What
we're after here is the truth. And I would submit to you that's what separates our side from theirs.
By September 2003, Sebastian and Aif had been in jail for more than eight years,
charged but never convicted for the Rafé family murders. >> You have to recognize that these are
human beings and they have had their lives stolen from them. And to make it worse, they've had their lives stolen
from them to somehow resolve a murder that they didn't commit. >> The case would turn on those
controversial confessions. >> Make believe mobsters extracting confessions from teenagers. Is that
allowed in the state of Washington? >> It's not allowed in the state of Washington.
And I don't think it's allowed anywhere else in the United States under the circumstances that it was done in this
case. >> Are you comfortable using the results from an illegal undercover investigation
by US laws in your case? >> This investigation was not illegal because it was conducted in Canada by
Canadian authorities targeting Canadian citizens. It was an investigation that they undertook separate and apart from
the Belleview investigation. [Applause] This case, it's not only about the lives
of my two friends. It's about the responsibility of police and prosecutors to do their job properly and to act in
good faith. And they have not done that in this case. >> It would be up to Superior Court Judge
Charles Martell. Well, please be seated everyone >> to decide if Sebastian and Aif's
chilling confessions caught on tape would be allowed to damn them in an American court.
>> Other prosecutors in other cases with evidence just like that have told jurors just like the ones
that will sit in our case that it's a slam dunk. And those jurors very comfortably have convicted people and
sentenced them to die. And they've been wrong. Judge Martell was about to make the most
controversial ruling of his career. The boy's lives would depend on what he was about to say.
48 hours continues. [Music] Before [Music] we begin, just a trigger warning. The
following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen
with care. Let's be honest. You've been portrayed as a monster. >> Yes. >> Evil, maniacal,
plotting, a murderer. >> Are you those things? >> No. [Music] >> Welcome to Killer Conversation, a
podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48 hours producer. So, I like to think I
know a thing or three about killers. In this episode, Peter Vans and I will take
a deep dive into two interviews he did with convicted killers, teenagers who murdered three people for money and the
thrill of it back in 1994. A decade later, they agreed to be interviewed exclusively by Peter for 48
hours. >> Did you hold that bat in your hands and kill those three people? No, I didn't.
Sebastian Burns has been described as the mastermind who used a metal baseball bat to kill his buddy Aif Rafé's mother,
father, and sister while Aif stood by. >> Aif, did you and Sebastian Burns meticulously plan the murder of your
family? >> Absolutely not. >> Hi, Peter. Good to see you again. Thanks so much for joining me. So, this was
such a high-profile case. You covered it twice for 48 hours and wrote a book about it. Tell us how you got involved.
>> Sometimes it's the simplest of of ways. The house where this occurred was about
a mile and a half from the house where I grew up in, this was in Bellev, Washington, and a great source that I'd
used over the years, my mother, called to tell me about it. And I immediately did everything I could to try to uh land
this assignment. So, from the very beginning, it was I had really kind of a personal stake in this.
>> I think I know the answer to this question, but I want to hear you say it. What was it about this case?
>> Oh, man. This story had everything. You've got two best friends. They're young. They're meticulous plotters,
vicious, heartless characters that some fiction writer could not have come up with. The two of them met in high school
in Vancouver, Canada. And in all the years I had lived in Belleview, there had never been an unsolved murder case.
>> So both of these boys were Canadian citizens at the time, right? I mean, the Rafé were living in Washington, but they
were they were Canadians. So this case drew international attention and yet you were the only journalist who Sebastian
and agreed to interview with. How did you get that interview? Why 48 hours? Well, first 48 does have a great
reputation of honestly telling these stories and wanting to hear from both sides and and respecting the whole
process. But has to go back to my producers on this one, Jenna Jackson, Guyian Kosishian, and Nancy Kramer uh
who lived dedicated their lives uh this six-monthlong trial. We had someone there virtually every day. And so they
met the defense attorneys, they developed relationships, they met Sebastian's parents and of course were
dead. Um, and they developed some trust and as a Seattleite that connected with a lot of people. I was I grew up there.
I knew the the area. I knew Vancouver, Canada really well. And I think all of that came together and we managed to
land the interviews. >> Amazing. I I know what that's like to uh sit through long trials and and gain
everyone's trust. Um, so they are both remorseless killers, but so different. Sebastian seems diabolical. Aif is so
aloof. How did you prepare for two very different interviews? >> Well, in both cases, you know, we had
the the ability to dig into these police reports. We watched the undercover videos which were haunting. We
interviewed investigators, prosecutors, defense attorneys. You know, they all were very open with sharing information
with us and I can't can't thank them enough. Sebastian was cocky and condescending and people said he was the
mastermind and he just would look at you and couldn't help it but look down upon
you even though he's wearing an orange jumpsuit even though he's the one behind bars. Um, I was the fool in the room. I
felt when I was talking to him and I knew I I had to be direct and really wellprepared because he would correct me
on any any fact. >> Aif was his devoted follower. He was a very soft-spoken intellectual
um who, if you believe what investigators have concluded in this case, he stood by while his best friend
in the world savagely beat his family to death with a baseball bat. So, I honestly didn't know what to expect with
him because when you first greet him, he's very well-mannered, but as you get into a conversation, he loves to turn it
into um verbal combat and he wants to impress you with his with his array of weapons uh with the with the English
language. And so it's fascinating to sit with him and he found that to be almost
a contest, >> a debate in a way that he in his mind he could never lose. >> You talked to them separately in the
jail where they were awaiting sentencing. Tell me about that day. >> It was so weird. I It was a vibe that I
have never encountered in any other uh interview with a killer. Arrogance just filled the air. no remorse, not taking
any responsibility for these horrors. Occasionally, they would smile in a way that was exasperating. I mean, I even
said at one time in the interview to Sebastian, "What do you think this is funny?" Cuz he'd have a smile on his
face. And so, in that way, it was a real out of body experience for me as a journalist.
>> Did you ever think to yourself that because of your superior intelligence, the rules of society did not apply to
you? No. And I really didn't sincerely think in those terms at all. My, as you put
it, my superior intelligence. I just, like I said, I used to make a lot of wise cracks. And um,
no, I I didn't think like that. >> How would you describe Sebastian in a word? Uh, I have to use words
unfortunately, but he handsome, charming when he chose to be, smart, someone who
could have accomplished great things in life. Sebastian, he became a member of the Royal Canadian Aircadets. And
there's this picture of him getting an award by Prince Edward, you know, and his parents were so proud.
>> Uh, he expected to be a lawyer in life, he said, because he loved to be so argumentative.
He was raised in a um in a really great home, a very sophisticated upper middle class family. Mom and dad were very well
educated. They lived in West Vancouver, British Columbia. It was a very, very desirable neighborhood. It was a place
where Sebastian and his sister Tiffany, they wake up the parents in the morning uh on Christmas morning playing their
cellos, you know, a Christmas song to to wake them up. Uh, Sister uh Tiffany was
was a real successful woman in her own right. She was a television reporter and anchor at at the CBS station in
Cleveland and working her way up in a very promising career. >> Well, how would you describe a thief in
in a word? >> Compliant. That's the way he was with with Sebastian. >> Aif had been accepted at Cornell
University, which is currently ranked number 11 in the country by US News and World Report. He was impressive and he
knew it. >> And I know you've heard this many times, but the notion is two arrogant, smug,
self-absorbed young men who saw themselves as intellectually superior planned the perfect murder so that you
could financially benefit from it and achieve the things in your own words that you wanted to achieve in life.
>> Yeah, I know. It's uh such a compelling tabloid narrative but like many tabloid
narratives it's fatuous and foolish and false and um it's uh that particular line about uh achieving
the things that I want to do in life. I think that if any discerning person looks at that, they will see the empty
abstractions of someone who is trying to come up with some kind of justification
for something that he didn't do and couldn't justify. >> My goodness, his smuggness is palpable
and he has a smile on his face the whole time. What made these two friends, Peter?
I guess there was there similarities in intellect, but they were the odd couple.
One was the leader, one was the follower. They were both quirky. Um they they gravitated toward each other in
high school. Both were fans of the German philosopher Frederick Nichze who was Hitler's favorite philosopher by the
way. Nietze um had this theory of uber mench, the superman who could impose his own morality, his own will upon the weak
through strength and dominance. Um I think they saw themselves as supermen. >> Were there any signs when they were in
high school that either of them might be capable of of a crime like this? >> Yeah. When we were doing interviews in
in Vancouver, there was a a woman we spoke to uh who was a a good friend of Sebastian's, in fact, a girlfriend, and
she told authorities that Sebastian had told her that he wanted to know what it was like to kill someone.
>> Are you saying that you are incapable of committing murder? >> Yes, absolutely you are. Then how do you
explain what you said to your friend Nazgal Shifty 6 months before these murders? I'd like to kill somebody
someday. I think I'd like to know what it feels like. I think I might find it rather enjoyable.
>> That was a sarcasm that I made. First of all, I want to be clear that's not a
verbatim quote. Nobody knows what the verbatim quote is. That was a sarcasm that was made uh at some point when I
was 17 years old. I was reminded of it for the first time just this last March. Okay.
>> Why would he even say a thing like that? Like who says a thing like that? What
was he testing her? >> Yeah. Look, this girlfriend, that quote was burned into her mind. She was very
bright. And I think that was maybe a word or two off. But note the note the analysis he has to give us about about
it's not exactly verbatim but >> she was absolutely certain this what it what what what he said and it also sent
a chill >> up her spine and um but also as an uber mench he could say and do whatever he
wanted to and get this in the high school yearbook Sebastian had described himself as a titan with furious contempt
for the petty strictctures of plebbeans. s and a tif wrote, "Hearing the cries of
the plebs below, Aif descended through the clouds and gazed beusely at the petty struggles of those around him and
laughed." This again, brilliant immaturity, word play used for shock. Okay, let's let's talk about the
murders. According to authorities, sometime in the late evening of July 12th, 1994, Sebastian used a metal
baseball bat to bludgeon Aif's parents and his sister while Aif basically stood by. He may even have been watching at
some points. You've seen a lot of crime scene photos, Peter. We both have. How do you think these compare?
>> These crime scene pictures were among the most gruesome I had ever seen. particularly Aif's father. The first
picture I saw was of Sultana Rafé, Aif's mother. Um, who would have known that Sultana at that time of day would have
been down unpacking boxes cuz they had they had moved into this new house. Latif would know that. And it's believed
that she was attacked first. Her head was crushed from behind. She probably had no idea that this killer was
approaching her. She's lying on her stomach. Uh fascinating that too that her head was covered in a scarf. And
investigators will tell you that when a killer knows the victim and particularly
if it's someone close to them that they often cover the head because they just don't want to look at the face,
>> right? >> And so we move on then upstairs. The killer then moved upstairs and Tariq
Aif's father, 56 years old at the time, he was sleeping on his back uh and his head was pulverized by several dozen
blows at least um investigators believe. And this was as savage a rage killing as
I have ever seen. The third one was Basma. She's 20 years old. Why would they save Basma for last?
Well, she couldn't talk >> and uh she uh was autistic and the killer entered her room and this
uh turned into a bit of a struggle because she was physically strong and she was running and trying to get away
and was being being hit. And one neighbor heard, and this is so disturbing, what he described as a
mooing sound coming from inside the Rafé house. And we know today, and investigators believe that noise was
Bosma crying out as she fought for her life. When investigators got into the room,
they noticed she had defensive wounds all over her hands. uh her skull had been smashed in and many of her teeth
had been knocked out. So this was a terrifying, horrible, drawn out uh death for Bosma.
>> So incredibly brutal. I mean, one of the detectives said somebody went off the
deep end and once they started killing, either enjoyed it or couldn't stop themselves.
Two neighbors even heard the pounding of the bat. >> Yeah. One thought they were must be
putting up big paintings because they were having to hit the wall so hard. >> Why would Sebastian be so brutal about
these killings? >> This is something that um I don't really have the answer for this one. People
have often wondered and the investigators did on this considering what Sebastian had talked about killing
and wondering what it was like that that this was a thrill kill, >> right? Uh, we know that Sebastian had
starred in a high school play called Rope, which was turned into a movie. >> One of my favorite films.
>> Mine too. Directed by Alfred Hitchcock. The play and his film are about two young friends much like Sebastian and
Aif, who strangle a friend with a rope for the thrill of it, >> right? To see what it's like.
>> And so, there's similarities between what he acted out on stage and what was occurring in that house. Okay, let let's
take a break and when we come back we'll talk about why prosecutors think Sebastian and Aif committed these
horrible murders. The answer is chilling on so many levels. The senior deputy prosecutor on the case
against Sebastian Burns and Aifra Fay called the murders absolutely savage. What reason did they have to commit
these gruesome murders? >> Well, we know Sebastian had expressed an interest in killing someone someday to
see what it felt like. And in this case, um, Aif's parents, uh, had some money and they had life insurance as well. And
I think money did play a role in this. And uh Aif had this difficult relationship with his father who was
deeply religious and and he had also expressed kind of a resentment of his autistic sister Basma. He called her
gross and said he never really liked her and prosecutors said that he would mock
and he would mimic her in front of her. Um so money that that to me I think is at the heart of this.
>> I think you're right. And with a teeth saying at one point that he wanted to be
able to live the life he wanted to do to live and the money would would allow him
to do that. >> Right. Right. You asked a tie about his relationship with his family and his
answer left me cold. >> How would you describe your relationship with your parents?
Um, I we had uh I I was close closer to my mom than probably anyone I ever have been or will ever be close to. Um
uh I loved both my parents. Um I admired my father. Uh I had we had a I mean at the same time we had uh all kinds of
arguments uh which I enjoyed having and which I suspect they enjoyed having as well. Um we had um
uh I guess uh I mean it's hard to sum up the relationship that a person has with
one's parents because it's in one sense the closest and most basic sort of relationship that you will ever
have. It constitutes who you are as a human being. Um and uh I mean >> did you love your mom and dad?
>> Yes. Yes. Do you love your sister? >> I would have to say that um I didn't really have a relationship with my
sister. And so I think that if I were to say that I loved my sister, I would sort
of be demeaning the feelings that I had for my parents. >> That is so strange. And he was very
honest about not loving his sister. What were you thinking in that moment? It's it's just a coldness that u that
you know if you dehumanize it's easier to kill. >> Okay. So the these murders were very
well thought out. Clearly not well enough to keep them out of prison, but there was a lot of planning that went
into these murders. What was the plan? >> The idea was to be out uh for the evening in a very noticeable way cuz
they went to a restaurant called the Keg. By the way, Keg is, you know, five miles from where I grew up. I I went
there after while I was covering this case just to have dinner there and see the place. Um, and that's in Factorial,
Washington, which is right off the interstate near Belleview. That's where the movie complex was, where they went
to see The Lion King. And a waiter would later tell police that he remembered the
two underage Canadians trying to order wine. So, they did something that would draw attention where they'd have to show
ID, right? Um, and then when they get to the movie theater, when Sebastian was buying his movie tickets, he goes, "Hey,
you like my shirt?" And his shirt had a big cartoon character, some milkman character on it. And and the ticket
taker remembered Sebastian. Yeah. This odd guy said, "Hey, take a look at my t-shirt." Again, he's registering in
people's minds. He's creating a a memory that he was there. and a thief was wearing an army jacket. Once inside the
movie theater, people said that they were obnoxious. They were drawing attention to themselves. They were
talking loudly. At one point, one of them went up to the screen and tried to pull the movie curtains apart again. Get
everyone's attention. Yeah, I remember those guys. I saw them there. >> Then after they snuck out, they
committed the crimes. Investigators believe that after the murder, the boys went out on this uh tour of eeries to
try to to try to draw attention to themselves as much as they could so people would remember them if
investigators came to question employees. And their first stop was a diner where they paid with a $10 bill
for basically about a $3 meal and leaving a $7 tip. and the waitress remembered them when they end up also
then going out to a nightclub that that was closing at 2 am and they demanded to
be let in but they were not again people would remember yeah those two boys they
were shouting at us let us into the club everywhere they went they wanted to create a memory with an employee that if
authorities came and remember over and over the police questioned the neighbors in the hopes that they would change
their timelines because for investigators this was a big problem. On one side of the Rafé house, there was a
woman named Julie. And she was a very meticulous woman who every night went through a routine that began at a
certain time where, as I recall, she put in a a load of wash and um and then put
it in the dryer and then she would read for a particular amount of time, usually
even the same amount of pages each night. and she would look at her at her clock and she would go to bed at exactly
the same time. And based on her story, the boys were at that movie theater at the time that she was an ear witness to
the murders inside the Rafé house. When she heard all of this noise coming from there, the boys weren't there. They were
at the movie theater. And that is not disputed. So, so she heard pounding at a time when those boys were allegedly
spotted at the movie theater. >> Yeah. This is before any of the encounters with the waitresses and
everything else, >> right? >> She never changed her her timeline, but investigators just simply said, "Well,
we're going to say and we'll say in court that we just think she's wrong. She just had her times wrong, even
though she won't change and that that she was wrong." But it created an opening for the defense. And there was
another neighbor who heard it and believed it was also at the same time. So Sebastian and Aif claimed they
entered the Rafé family home uh at around 2:00 a.m. and that Sebastian was the first to see Aif's mother lying in a
pool of blood. They admit that they never touched her. They didn't even bother to see if she was still alive or
try to help her. >> How do you know she's still not breathing? How do you not turn her over
to check if she's breathing to see if there's something you could do? >> I don't know. I don't know. And
I don't know. And maybe that was a really cowardly thing to do. It was just a reflex. I I cannot describe to you how
shocking it was. Just how completely confounding it was. And there was nothing sensical about my
reaction at all. >> It's been alleged you didn't want to touch the body because you didn't want
to get blood on you because you that would wreck your alibi. It would wreck the stage that you had set there to fool
police. That's completely wrong. I mean, if you're not the killer, you're you're trying to save that person,
right? You don't care if you get blood on you. >> Right. Right. Absolutely. >> During the investigation, Sebastian was
caught on tape saying that he was naked when he committed the murders. What's that all about?
>> Well, think about it. If you're wearing clothes, you're going to get blood spatter on those clothing, and that can
turn into evidence. Uh, and investigators concluded fairly early on, this is just one of the bizarre things.
He's never heard of this before in any murder case I've covered that the killer stepped into the shower and took a
shower. And what did investigators find in that in that shower stall on the drain? There were 21 hairs recovered and
they were all from Sebastian Burns and uh and the walls of the shower uh had blood on
them. It was tested and that was Tariq Rafase, Aif's dad. But what killer would step in to take a shower, particularly
if it was a stranger? Because that killer would have known, hm, a teeth's not here. He could come home. I better
get out of this house as quickly as possible. >> Good point. >> What killer would step in to take a
shower if that killer didn't know there wasn't anyone left to come home? >> Right. if if because Aif was there. He
was alive and he was one of the two killers. >> So they discover Aif's mother and then
Sebastian calls 911. When the police arrived, uh Aif's sister Bosma was still alive. They could hear her moaning. The
boys would have heard her too. And you asked them why they didn't try to save Bosma's life. Let let's listen to a Tif.
Your sister was in the other room. You knew she was injured. You could hear her moaning. How do you not go in and give
first aid? You could have saved your sister's life. >> Well, for one, I don't really know first
aid. And I didn't even think of it. I didn't even >> You're a bright guy. If someone's
bleeding, you know how to stop bleeding, right? >> You're right. >> You know that for the average person, it
sounds terrible that you didn't go in there. It sounds like you wanted her to die.
Well, I suppose that if I had planned these murders, I would certainly have rushed in and made heroic efforts to uh
save her. Um, unfortunately, I had not planned these uh murders. I didn't commit these murders, and Sebastian
didn't either. And I was I acted in a cowardly and shameful way which I felt ashamed of even in the days immediately
following and have never since ceased feeling shameful of. But those were my reactions under pressure I
guess. >> Oh Peter, where to start? It was a decision. It wasn't a decision if he had
planned the murders. But unfortunately, he didn't plan the murders. Is this a confession of sorts?
>> I'm not quite sure. I mean, so in other words, yeah, I he uh planned it. Sebastian did. I would have done a much
better job. Uh it's it's stupid that that answer is so clumsy and so void of humanity.
[Music] [Music] Okay. So, Peter, police focused on the boys from the very beginning. Why?
>> Well, let's go down the list. You know, they discovered the bodies. The murders
didn't look like a robbery gone bad. They both talked about there must have been a break-in. There were no signs of
any forced entry at the house. There was an overkill situation. No burglar would
do something like that. And cops became even more suspicious when the night after the murder, Sebastian and a thief
were spotted at a local video store renting movies. They didn't seem at all phased by the gruesome murder scene they
had they had discovered. And police were also struck by how many details they remembered about their night out on the
town. Remember all the waitresses and all the things, but they couldn't recall what they did when they got home and
found Aif's family beaten to death. Yeah, they weren't exactly acting like teenagers who were in a state of shock.
So, let's talk about the defense for a minute. The boys and their defense team believed that Aif's father was
assassinated and that his wife and daughter were collateral damage. What What can you tell us about that?
>> Well, Aif's father, Tariq, he was prominent and active in the local Muslim community and he offended more
conservative Muslims. And how is that? As an engineer, Tariq Rafé, he calculated true east and determined that
all the mosques in the Pacific Northwest and British Columbia, Canada, were not properly facing Mecca,
>> you know, and Muslims must pray toward Mecca. And this is crucial. And so he said everyone was going to have to move
their prayer mats one degree. doesn't sound like a big deal, but for some, this could be blasphemous. This could be
how how dare you, we you're telling us that we've been praying in the wrong direction.
>> Um, and Belleview police ended up getting three tips, that the murders may have been related to fundamentalists who
wanted Tariq and his family dead. A Canadian officer told them that an informant had warned him that there was
a hit out on an East Indian family in Belleview. Now, the Rafé family, they're not East Indians, they're from Pakistan,
but still the context and the nature of that tip is strongly suggesting that that they could have been the targets.
>> Right. Also, the Seattle Police Intelligence Division reported that they believed the family may have been killed
by an extremist group called Al Fukra. And an FBI informant told them that he knew an imam who ordered the murders and
knew a man who said he committed the murders. He said he even saw a baseball bat in in the trunk of his car and
believed that that was the murder weapon. Um, the cops hadn't even publicized that the weapon was a metal
baseball bat yet. >> I mean, all this is just so intriguing. >> It seems like the Belleview police kind
of like blew that all off. Do you think it's possible that they just didn't pay attention to that at all?
>> I believe with all that has happened in the world, this would this would be checked out. And at the time, I I think
it wasn't properly checked out. On the day that Aif Rafé's parents and his sister were laid to rest, Aif was
nowhere to be found, he and his buddy Sebastian Burns were on a bus on their way to Sebastian's home in Vancouver,
Canada. >> My dad was very worried about what the Belleview police were doing. He'd called
a friend of his who was a lawyer. He told his friend uh some of the things that the police had been saying to him
and it was pretty clear that the police were treating us as suspects. His friend, who was a lawyer, said if it was
my kid, I'd drive down there tonight and pick him up myself. My dad asked me did
I want him to come and drive down that night and pick him up myself after after he told me that. And I told him, "No,
it's okay. We'll catch a bus back the next day." but he was very concerned that we come back to Canada as soon as
possible. >> How did the Belleview police feel about their prime suspects fleeing the
country? >> This is a part of the story that really drives me freaking crazy. Um, they
didn't have any basis to continue holding them. They'd been interviewed numerous times and the truth is they
didn't flee. These boys didn't flee. A representative from the Canadian consulate informed the Bellev police of
their plans that the boys would be picked up by their father and taken back to Vancouver, British Columbia. And they
said, "Is that all right?" And they were told, "Yes, it's all right." She then tells the boys, this consulate officer
tells the boys, "It's okay to go." And they leave. That is many things in this world, but that is not fleeing. But the
media reported it as them fleeing, which did not make them look good. So there wasn't enough evidence to hold them.
When they got to Canada, did Sebastian's family believe that the boys were innocent?
>> Oh, absolutely. They believed that this was an impossibility that it that this
could have happened. They believed they were innocent and they were just being set upon by a police department in a
wealthy community that was under enormous pressure to solve this case. But again, the boys didn't really help
themselves at all. They behaved very badly. They used money from the Rafé family estate to rent and then buy a
Mustang convertible and go on a road trip. >> Yeah. And there was a memorial service
for the Rafé family in Vancouver. It was covered by media from around the world.
And the boys were there and and they decided to when they came out of the mosque to to run to a car and they were
laughing and covering up their faces and it was just a shocking shocking moment.
>> What was so funny? I guess, you know, it was the media that was funny and it was it was the the
sheer grotesqueness of I mean, these were people who were literally chasing me down to ask me, "Why won't you cop or
cooperate with the police?" Um, I guess the sheer gall, I suppose, of of being chased down at a memorial service and
asked questions by reporters who really cared nothing, I suspect, for my family,
for the murders, for anything, but getting a rise essentially, out of me. Uh, it just seemed it just seemed
absolutely grotesque. And I I suppose I couldn't help laughing at it. >> You know, when I watched uh the clips of
of that memorial service, it looked to me like Sebastian gave the finger to one of the camera crews and they just they
looked like rock stars walking into some venue. It was just bizarre. But you know
what's interesting is to some people they actually looked like traumatized teenagers. Some people believe that if
they were trying to get away with murder, they would have been crying and acting, you know, upset and uh and
weeping at the grave sites, not acting like like the idiots that they were acting like. Do you think they were in
shock? Well, there was a behavioral expert who was ready to testify for the defense, but but this man was never
called, and he said that this goofy, bizarre behavior is actually common in extremely traumatic events with boys
whose brains aren't yet fully formed that you'll get that kind of behavior. >> So, no matter what people believed about
these boys, they became clearly notorious. It seems like everybody knew who they were and what they were
suspected of doing. >> I mean, Sebastian testified that he w he now is almost like the best he and Aif
were the best known men in British Columbia because of all the the media coverage. He couldn't get a job and he
couldn't go back to college and Aif couldn't get back to school due due to the attention of this case. So they
ended up they rent a house in Vancouver with two high school friends including a
close friend who ends up playing an important role in this case, Jimmy Mioshi. Uh and they would play loud
music all night long. People would call the RCMP, the >> the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.
>> Yeah. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police. And and the RCMP at this point decides,
you know, let's open up our own investigation, >> right? And so they decide to bug the
house that the boys were living in. They also bugged uh Sebastian's cell phone. And uh yeah, and they they realized that
that they were smart boys and that they had to be smarter than the boys. So they
used what they were what was called in Canada at that point the Mr. Big operation.
>> Detective Bob Thompson told us you had committed the perfect murder. There was
no evidence at the house linking you to this crime. And if you hadn't gone back to Canada and gotten involved in this
undercover operation, you never would have been arrested. Do you think about that?
>> Oh, I think about that often. >> And that sting operation would prove to be the boy's undoing. That's next time
on Killer Conversation. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Rybeck. Our
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing and sound design, factchecking, and additional
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus. Follow and listen to Killer Conversation
on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode, please rate and review on Apple
Podcasts or Spotify. Follow Killer Conversation on the Free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
48 hours continues. I think that everyone who knew Sebastian thought that he was going on to do
something interesting with his life. Yeah. People expected him to be a leader, to do something interesting and
um I hope one day he will. [Music] Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé should have been celebrating at the West Vancouver
High School 10-year reunion. Instead, they had become the class of 93's most infamous graduates.
Prosecutors say just one year out of high school, these brilliant best friends tried to commit the perfect
murder. It was a brutal crime. >> There's blood all over his face. >> That shocked the upscale suburb of
Belleview, Washington. A Tif's mother, father, and sister bludgeoned to death. The motive, insurance money.
The boys got away and were living in Canada until undercover police officers caught them on tape boasting about how
they did it. probably three people at once. Uh, otherwise when I did it. >> Now, on the eve of their murder trial, a
judge would decide if a jury would get to hear those chilling confessions. [Music]
I do not find the undercover officer's conduct in this case shocking or outrageous. Although they were
deceitful, persistent, and aggressive. They engaged in tricks, but not dirty tricks.
It was a controversial ruling allowing the boy's own words to be used against them.
>> Who should you go first? >> And would set the tone for the whole trial. Just how powerful
is the impact of this video of these two boys confessing to murders. >> It's incredibly powerful. When I first
saw it, I was taken aback. I was shocked. There are two young men seemingly laughing about slaughtering
three people and saying, "I did it." >> And while the confessions may be shocking, the defense says they're not
true. >> This case is about what happens when a presumption of guilt, when a gut feeling
that you have the right suspects takes over from logical and objective evaluation of the evidence. This case is
about what happens when you pursue individuals as opposed to pursuing the truth.
>> Finally, in November 2003, more than 9 years after the Rafé family murders, Sebastian and Aif get their day in
court. >> The juryy's going to finally hear the story of what really happened to the
Rafé family and they'll hear the story of Sebastian and innocence. >> But prosecutors had a very different
story to tell. Sebastian Burns is young, thoughtful, charismatic, manipulative, and most importantly, a
killer. A brutal killer. You've been portrayed as a monster. >> Yeah. >> Yes. >> Maniacal,
plotting, a murderer. >> Are you those things? >> No. The state's theory is we want to make
the jurors hate these two young men. Essentially, they make it a test of character as opposed to a test of
evidence. >> And character is at the heart of the prosecution's case. >> All rise. Superior court is now in
session. >> The defendants were two young men who believed they could commit the perfect
murder. >> Roger David Heheiser opened for the state. Ladies and gentlemen, what you
will hear in the end is that it was this very hubris that sealed their fate and their arrogant and unrealistic belief
that they were smart enough to achieve mastery over the police and their investigation. He zeroed in on the piece
of evidence that launched the case and for the first time revealed a startling flaw in the boy's plan.
>> There's uh I need uh an ambulance. They made that 911 call too quickly. >> They're
we think they're dead. >> My belief is that they just walked straight into the house and made the 911
call. >> The timing was critical. So, we asked Detective Thompson to retrace their
drive home from downtown Seattle where they were last seen that night. >> Uh 18 minutes.
>> What does that tell you? And 18 minutes would give them three minutes in the house.
>> And three minutes, said the prosecutors, was not enough time in the house to find
the bodies and do all the things Sebastian and Aif told the police they did. And think about what they had to do
in that 3 minutes. Three minutes to arrive home, pull the family car into the garage, enter the
home through the garage, discover and comprehend that Sultana, Tariq, and Bosma have been brutally attacked and
laid dead in three different areas of that house. The revelation startled the defense, but
Song Richardson was thinking on her feet. asking you, how long does it take to walk into a house and see these two
brutally butchered bodies of a TE's family and then run downstairs and call 911 >> and turn the prosecution's argument on
its head? >> How long is 3 minutes? Well, let's see. That was about a minute and a half.
>> But remember, it wasn't just the murders. In that 3 minutes, the boys also had to figure out there'd been a
burglary and that a VCR and discman were missing. >> There's been some kind of breakin. I
hear the voice of a person who has contrived a story that can only be explained by somebody who knew very well what had
happened in the Rafé family home. I was out of my mind at the time. I was totally in shock, totally
staggered and and confounded and and was almost totally hysterical. In a case where every minute matters,
the defense bolsters their claim of the boy's innocence by playing up statements
the neighbors on both sides of the Rafé house gave to police in the days following the murders. The neighbors
initially said that they heard pounding coming from inside the Rafé house at a time when the boys have an airtight
alibi. You were standing in this driveway and that's >> Mark Sidell lived right next door to the
Rafes. How loud were the bangs you were hearing? >> Um, they're pretty hard hits
a little bit harder to need hang a a picture. >> Sidel says back then he didn't think a
murder was taking place next door and figured the Rafes who had just moved in were probably unpacking. I sort of
thought about going over and helping him so they could go to sleep, but luckily that night I didn't.
>> The Rafa's other nextoor neighbor, Julie Rackley, testified that she also heard
sounds. >> Initially, I thought it just sounded like hammering. It had sort of an odd
resonance to it. >> The neighbors who heard these sounds, described them in great detail, and
verified what they were for the police all heard them well before 10:00 at night. And at 10:00, Sebastian and Aif
were still seen at the movie theater. >> If the jury believes these initial reports that Mark Sidell and Judy
Rackley gave to police, your case could be in trouble. >> Absolutely. You can't be in two places
at one time. There's no debating that point. There are two independent neighbors who separately heard the
murder happen at the end of twilight before 10:00 and we were known to be on the other
side of town when that happened. It was impossible for us to have committed this
crime. >> Prosecutors contend it is possible. Even though the boys were seen going to the
950 movie, there's no proof that they stayed. Is there a way for these two boys to exit the theater without drawing
attention to themselves? Say during the movie. >> Jose Martinez sold the boys movie
tickets that night and he showed us how they could sneak out from this theater. >> Go out this exit behind the curtain or
the other one over there. >> So if they slip through this curtain, you're not letting any light into the
theater. >> Correct. >> Then up these stairs >> and out this exit door. >> Two doors outside. The defense protested
that even though it could have happened that way, there was no proof that it did
and that prosecutors were grasping at straws to get a conviction. >> They sifted through Sebastian's history
and his life and a chief's history and his life and tried to find anything that would make them look like bad people. In
fact, months into the trial, prosecutors brought this intriguing surprise witness
from the boy's past who said she had evidence that could turn the case. But first, they would have to convince the
judge to let the jury hear what she had to say. >> You swear or affirm. >> Nascll shift was a friend from the boy's
high school days who had dated Sebastian. What was this comment that Sebastian Burns made that that stood out
at you? >> He said, "I want to try to kill someone one day to see how how it would feel
because I think I would find it enjoyable." >> She claimed a late night conversation
she'd had years ago with the boys in her bedroom had planted the seeds for murder.
>> Did you think he was serious? He wasn't laughing and he said it in a serious tone.
>> Sebastian doesn't deny having the conversation, but emphatically says he wasn't serious.
>> It's uh a oneline paraphrase of a sarcasm from a hippie- dippy 3:00 a.m. conversation 10 years ago, and I can't
remember enough about it to defend myself against it. If anyone would reflect on that and think, imagine if
the worst parts of my personality, maybe the worst moments when I was 18 years old, that I would be reminded of them
for the next nine years of my life and that's that in the public eye would be the person that I'd become. I think
people would really shudder. It's a nightmare. >> Thank you for your time and your
testimony. It was certainly damning testimony, but the jury would never hear it.
>> There is no question. Had I known about this last spring, I would have admitted this.
Four months into this thing, I can't stop this process and let everyone dash to the four winds to try and research
this. The judge's decision flustered prosecutors. But there's another witness more
powerful and much more damning. >> You swear or affirm that the testimony of >> the friend the boys swore would never
betray them. [Music] >> Do you recognize Mr. Burns and Mr. Rafé are in the courtroom here today?
>> Yes, I do. It had been years since Jimmy Moshi had seen his high school buddies Sebastian
and Aif. Jimmy had moved to Japan and was living under another name when prosecutors
forced him to return to Seattle and face his friends at their murder trial. >> He was in no uncertain terms conflicted.
In fact, he spent the last two or three years of his life trying to avoid the eventuality of being compelled to come
to court and testify about his against his two best friends. Jimmy could have easily been sitting next to his best
friends charged with a crime. Back in 1995, during the undercover operation, Jimmy was also a target of the RCMP.
The RCMP believed Moshi helped the boys plan the murder of the Rafé family and they wanted him to give a full
confession on tape just like his friends had done. >> You know what went on down there in that
house? >> What went on? Yeah. >> But no matter how much he was pressed for details, Moshi refused to implicate
his friends in the murder. >> Okay. You know who killed the parents? Yeah. Who is that what you want? Yeah.
And um I just want I just wanted you to explain to me exactly the purposes of you wanting to know is that so we can
establish this kind of totally for trust totally for trust. >> Totally. >> In some ways was Jimmy Moshi the
smartest of them all. >> He's not in jail. [Music] >> In fact, Jimmy was arrested with
Sebastian and a interrogated by authorities in Canada. He was told that he might face the death penalty himself.
He was told that his family, his job, his future would be ruined unless he said that Sebastian and confessed to
him. >> Back then, Jimmy told the police that his friends were innocent >> at the time of your arrest on July 31,
1995. Were they honest answers? They were answers that I guess the intention of a lot of those answers was to to
protect Sebastian and Aif >> at that point on July 31, 1995. Why is it that you gave answers that were to
designed to protect Sebastian and Aif? >> I guess it was also in a way to protect
myself. Um, but in general because I didn't want Sebastian Natif to get whatever arrested and potentially
convicted. But under increasing pressure, Moshi eventually agreed to cooperate. And in exchange, he was
granted immunity from charges of conspiracy to commit murder. Suddenly, he began to reveal more to the
police about what he knew. But now the question loomed. Would Moshi betray his best friends?
>> Had this subject ever come up before, the notion of of Aif Rafé killing his family?
>> No, this was this was the first time. In a halting voice that often dropped to
a whisper, Jimmy told the court that it was during a drive from Seattle to Vancouver when Aif first brought up the
idea of killing his family. >> What was your response to the notion of Hatif's notion of killing his family? I
guess I was listening and um I I mean he was my friend at the time and I guess in a way I was neutral on
that notion. >> On the stand, Jimmy recounted a discussion about how the boys would
commit the crime. >> You remember which methods were discussed? I remember something about um
gassing the house and I remember discussion about um I guess using a baseball bat.
>> What do you remember about why uh why a baseball bat could or should be used?
>> I guess a quick and painless way of killing someone. I don't think there's any question that he was a
sounding board for them. >> The prosecution says Jimmy consulted on an especially chilling part of the plan.
Sebastian and Natif stayed here at the Rafé family home during the 5 days before the murders and it was no
coincidence. It was part of the plan, prosecutors say to commit the perfect crime. if they had been living in the
house previously that any kind of hair or whatever samples um that were collected after um wouldn't um
necessarily mean that they had done it >> by virtue of their being in the house for several days. Any fingerprint that
would be found or could be found could be explained as a result of there being there having been there for several
days. any hair evidence that might be found could be explained for them having been in the house for several days prior
to the murders. >> It's diabolical, but it's pretty clever. >> Damn clever. >> Finally, Jimmy gave the prosecution what
they needed. >> He said that a watched while Sebastian bludgeon the family. And I remember hearing about how
um I guess a Tif was pretty distraught and that um from the moment that Sebastian had
struck his mother that it was kind of a there's no going back. And >> how hard was it to sit and listen to
Jimmy Moshi's testimony? It >> was enormously difficult. I think it was difficult for him as well. Um, as I say,
I I am outraged that he did it. Um, but at the same time, I I think I I reserve my
real outrage for the people who forced him to do it. >> Did you discuss a plan to murder the
Rafé family with Jimmy Moshi? >> No, we didn't. Never. >> Why did Jimmy Moshi testify that you
did? because he had a life sentence held to his head. And if he didn't say what the police and
the prosecution wanted him to say, that life sentence was going to go off. >> It's the first time in 8 years that you
have ever said anything like that, isn't it, sir? >> Um, I'm not sure. >> And isn't what happened?
>> The defense tried to hammer back. Jimmy once lied to save his friends, so he could be easily lying now to save
himself. >> You're making it up as you go along, sir. That's why you're saying things for
the first time. >> No, I don't believe I am. >> Do you believe that Jimmy Moshi is a
liar? >> Jimmy Moshi is a self-admitted liar. Jimmy Moshi acknowledges that he has
lied. The question will be how many lies does Jimmy Moshi get to tell? >> Mr. Moshi, this conversation was on.
>> The defense needed to come back with something strong and they had an arsenal
of forensic evidence that flew in the face of Moshi's testimony. They told the jury that there were three
killers in the house that night. Experts analyzed the patterns of blood on the wall and found drops everywhere
except this area where there was no blood, indicating another killer may have stood there during the attack. They
also said a pillow was moved during the bludgeoning. >> So we have killer number one moving the
pillow. We have killer number two bludgeoning Dr. Rafé with the bat. And then we have killer number three who has
to remain in the exact same place throughout the entire duration of the attack on Dr. Rafé.
>> And there was even more tangible evidence, a single hair on Tariq Rafé's bed.
>> According to the police officers there, this was an important hair because this
hair, according to the Belleview Police Department, would tell them who committed this crime. Did it match Aif?
>> No. >> Sebastian? >> No. >> Sultana? >> No. >> Bosma? >> No. >> Tariq? >> No. We don't know whether that hair
originated from someone who sat in the same seat uh that Sebastian Burns sat in at the movie theater or whether it was
picked up by Dr. Rafé at his workplace or how it got on that bed >> or if it was a hair from the killer or
if it was a hair from the killer. Prosecutors also added DNA evidence needs to fit a pattern and appear in
more than one place at a crime scene. That DNA profile appeared nowhere else in that house. There was absolutely no
other pattern of trace evidence that could even re be remotely suggested to be related to that hair. That was an
isolated hair. So with the forensic evidence inconclusive, the case comes down to whom the jury
would believe. You're saying the testimony of one of my best friends. Don't listen to that. My
own words on the vide tape. Don't listen to that. Just take my word for it. We didn't do it.
>> Defense calls Sebastian Burns. All right for the jury. >> More than 100 witnesses would take the
stand in the state versus Burns and Rafé. >> Could you kill again? Circumstances are
right. >> Finally, Canada's most secret undercover operation would be exposed before the
jury. And so would the question that had lingered for so many years. >> Why would you confess to a murder you
didn't do? [Music] >> At that point, it seemed like the only safe choice. It seemed like the best
choice. Why on earth would anyone confess to a murder they didn't do unless they were petrified?
[Music] That they were actually going to be killed themselves or people they loved
were going to come to some type of harm. >> The defense set out to prove that the
scales were tipped from the beginning. Professional liars. >> 1975 I was uh first trained in undercover
work >> against teenage boys. Have you worked as the primary undercover operator before?
>> Yes. >> I am frightened by the fact that this kind of undercover operation can be used
ostensively to search for the truth when it is built in whole on lies and manipulation and threats.
>> Mr. Burns, come on forward. >> Sebastian would have to convince the jury to believe him now and not to
believe what he said on those tapes. that I was in way over my head and I did not want to be involved with these guys.
>> I was upset with myself for having agreed to drive the car. And >> Sebastian began his side of the story
with the first assignment from the crime box, transporting that stolen car. >> What was your reaction when you heard
that they wanted you to drive the stolen car? >> Well, pretty quickly I felt that I've
been tricked. Sebastian, why didn't you just look at him and say, "I am out of here. Walk away."
>> No, but there is no walking away. >> You want to know what I [ __ ] uh did my time for? I told the guy when it came
time for court. The person that could finger me, they're not around anymore. >> Sebastian says he couldn't walk away
from criminals whose power seemed to be so farreaching. I believe that if I'd cross them or if they weren't happy with
me or if they thought I was going to betray them that they would have me killed.
>> I just assume that you know you with your connections that if I were to you around, okay, I would just assume that I
would wake up one day with a bullet in my head >> on the stand. Song Richardson pressed
Sergeant Hlett about his scare tactics. Sebastian could easily, very easily have
believed that you and your organization would hurt people if they crossed you, right?
>> Uh, he he could have believed it. Yes. >> And that you would kill people if they
ever crossed you, right? >> Well, I've never said that. >> It goes to Sebastian Burn's imagination.
Let him sit back when he goes home at night and imagine whatever he chooses to. >> Is there any time in which your
character directly threatens Sebastian Burns? >> No, never. >> The idea was not to frighten Sebastian,
but to make him comfortable talking about murder to other murderers. >> I know he did that. That's why you're
here for yourself. >> Could Sebastian Burns have walked away from his relationship with you at any
time he chose to do so? >> Without a doubt, he didn't have to return our calls. >> Hey, it's Sebastian leaving. Message
number three. >> Sebastian stayed, the defense argued, because he believed the Belleview police
were fabricating evidence against him. >> I'm going to show you something. You never saw this from me. That phony memo
detailing the evidence that the cops had against the boys. Just read this piece of
>> the undercover operators only offered to destroy the evidence. If Sebastian confessed,
>> you don't say to Sebastian, "Look, Sebastian, if you didn't do it, just say so. We'll still deal with that evidence
for you. We'll deal with it so you won't get convicted. But if you didn't do it,
just just say so. We'll still help. You never said that, right? >> No, I didn't say that because up until
this time, Sebastian Burns had never denied the involvement in the murders to me.
[Music] >> Going into the meeting on July 18th, what was your plan? >> My plan was to claim to be the murderer
that they insisted that they believe that I was. And to be convincing, Sebastian says he studied newspaper
accounts, so he'd know details of the murders. [Music] >> First, >> um, the mother
and dad. >> As the cameras rolled, Sebastian confirmed the police theory that the
weapon was a baseball bat. We use a metal or wouldn't that >> um metal >> and the eerie notion that the killer had
showered before leaving the sar coming off blood making >> and that wasn't the only reason why
detectives found no blood on the boys. >> How do you uh get on the face and have
to shower no blood on you? You >> do it. [Music] Sebastian pointed out how he and a teeth
would profit from the crime. >> Whatever money we get, it's like we would invest it in our film. I guess
>> he gave up the most soughtafter clue, the loophole in the alibi. >> You uh do the dirty deed.
um during the movie and I'm going to get you all the trouble you're in. I'm >> flattered.
>> Huh? >> I'm flattered by your attention. >> Aif explained that while Sebastian
killed his family, he staged a breakin. >> What did he do in your house? >> Bre.
You told Hasllett, am I correct, that you committed these murders of the Rafé, the Rafé family during the movie. Am I
right? >> Correct. >> That the VCR was taken to also uh contribute to the simulation of a
breaking and entering. >> That's right. >> You had the alibi of the movie. >> The prosecution had another bombshell
ready to drop on the defense. >> It wasn't the first time Sebastian used a movie as an alibi. You got into a a a
a car collision, didn't you? >> Yes. >> Uh you were driving your family car at the time.
>> That's correct. Yes. >> I mean, you hit a pole in a parking lot. >> Did you own up to it at the time?
>> No, I did not. >> When he was 16, Sebastian staged an elaborate cover up to conceal the fact
that he had wrecked the family car. >> Mr. Burns, the reality is uh what you said about doing was very similar to
what you told Haslett you did in this case. Isn't that correct? >> I told Hlet that we committed a murder,
which we didn't do. >> Well, Mr. Burns, let me stop you there for a moment. >> Roger David Heiser drew a haunting
parallel between the accident scene and the murder scene. Back in high school, Sebastian went to great lengths to make
it seem like someone else did the damage while he was at the movie. But the insurance company caught him in
the cover up. >> And in March of 1992, albeit with this stupid little car crash, what you
decided to do was to pick up the pieces of evidence that were at the scene of this collision. Am I right?
>> Correct. >> You put those back in your car. Am I correct? >> Correct. >> You took them to an entirely different
location in North Vancouver. Am I right? >> Correct. And uh you staged a scene in a
parking lot. Am I right? >> Basically, >> you manipulated the evidence to appear
as though it was something that it wasn't. Am I right? >> Yes. >> And the reason you did that, sir was so
that you could say that this accident occurred while you were at the movies. Am I
right? >> Correct. >> Sir, you weren't at the movies when that accident occurred, were you?
>> No. The difference is that the first one is a car accident and the second one is a
homicide. >> That's correct, Mr. Burns. That is a difference. >> And the difference is also that in the
first case, I was responsible for the car accident. And in the second case, I had nothing to do with this homicide.
>> David Heiser wasn't about to let that statement go in front of the jury. He had more of that damning tape.
>> Can I tell you something? I I you know I felt like you know I was capable and
like you kill a person or something. >> And on July 18th of 1995 after you uh told him that you had in fact killed the
Rafé family, you told him that you did it because you felt capable of killing. Right.
>> Correct. Yes. >> Did you see it happen? >> Yeah. >> All three? >> No, only one. Which one? My mom.
>> The demeanor with which they deliver this this message of what they accomplished that that night in
Belleview is chilling. >> Didn't even fight. >> Um. Uh. Yeah. Well, that's a story that hasn't really
been told because I think I know that >> you can hear her teeth giggling in the background and and kind of going, "Oh
god, oh god." basically uh the father who was uh nothing and curious episode was um the
sister who basically um yeah I was standing up and walking around and whatever little uh network
>> your behavior on that tape when there's some laughing did you think that the murder of the Rafé family was some sort
of a comedy? >> No, absolutely not. But we were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the Rafé family when
I was talking. >> To a certain extent, I had essentially put the real events out of my mind
entirely so that I was really only thinking of the story that I was selling to Mr. Hlett.
That's not part of a story that two scared individuals come up with because they think it's what two mafia
characters want to hear. That's the truth. That's the truth coming from the mind of
a Tifer Fay and Sebastian Burns. [Music] It's a challenge to sum it all up in a couple of hours. Six months of testimony
comes down to one final argument. >> There is no gray area. There is nothing in between. Either you must believe what
Sebastian Burn says and every single thing he says or you must convict him. >> James Conat will speak for the state.
>> You like your odds >> very much. Are you ready? Absolutely. >> Jeff Robinson knows this is his last
chance in front of the jury and he will have to counter with everything he has. >> How many times does the evidence have to
tell us it's not Sebastian and it's not a teeth before we listen? Please listen.
He points to the bloody scene in Tariq's bedroom and evidence of three killers. >> Three people went into Dr. Rafé's room
and there are three unknown DNA profiles. >> Robinson reminds them that there is no
forensic evidence linking the boys to the crime. And the question that you're required to ask yourselves is, what has
the state shown me to make me believe that he is guilty without having one reason to doubt it?
>> Mr. Konad, floor is yours, honor. Thank you. >> There can be no doubt in your mind that
these two are the killers. >> The prosecution insists it is Sebastian's own words that leave no room
for doubt. How did you three people at once? >> Uh, not at >> and ultimately the words that came out
of Sebastian Burns's mouth led to his demise. His hubris led to his demise. [Music]
What would be most compelling to the 12 jurors? Would it be the neighbors who thought they heard the murders that
night when the boys were spotted at the movie theater? Or would they be haunted by Jimmy
Moshi's words damning his two former best friends? Would the jury believe that Sebastian was scared of those
undercover operators? Or is this the picture of a young man who thinks he's about to get away with
murder? For the last time, the jury is asked to envision the last moments in the Rafé
family home. This is the horror that they left behind. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we must not lose sight of.
Finally, it is up to the jury to make its decision. >> Okay, ladies and gentlemen, you're
retired to deliberate your verdict. >> In the script for The Great Despisers, two boys are wrongfully convicted and
executed. After 4 days of deliberations, 10 years after the murders, the final act in the
real life plotline. >> All rides for the jury. >> We the jury find the defendant Glenn
Sebastian Burns guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged in count one. Verdict form 1 F. We the jury
find the defendant uh Tif Ahmed Rafé guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree as charged in count three.
I did not believe that they didn't have reasonable doubt. I just didn't believe it.
>> I'm afraid of him. I think he's very scary. I looked at him a few times and he was glaring at me personally and
anybody that committed a crime like that is a frightening person. >> I was looking at individual jurors just
to see if they I don't know. I guess I was looking for some kind of an answer. >> I wonder
how they sleep at night. I wonder how they came to that decision. >> One way the other
>> with the verdict that was given, can you sleep well at night now? >> Yes. >> Yes.
>> No second thoughts. >> No. >> No way. >> Not with anyone. >> Not a doubt. >> I personally myself to the very day of
the end of the trial wanted them to be innocent. And in the end, I was totally overcome by the evidence. obviously, but
I think all of us were wishing that some suspect would be guilty so that we could
not convict these two young men. [Music] >> On October 22nd, 2004, 5 months after
the verdict, >> good morning, Sebastian and Aif were back in court. >> Sebastian, anything to say before they
put you away? this time to hear their sentence from the judge. >> Send Mr. Burns a very clear message that
he has been found guilty. Send him to prison for the rest of his natural life times three. Three consecutive life
sentences. Mr. Burns. >> Thank you, your honor. >> Sebastian had his own message for the
court. >> With all due respect to the jurors, the verdict is wrong. In the audience
were jurors who had convicted him and the undercover operators who had sealed his fate.
>> I certainly feel sorry for the victims. I feel sorry for their surviving son.
>> This was his only expression of sympathy. >> Before I continue, I would just encourage you to consider
>> in a speech that went on >> and that's >> for almost two hours. our jury was made to have.
>> I want to insist today on the truth that we are innocent. >> Aif never took the stand during the
trial. >> And I loved my parents. I rever memory to this day. >> He used this moment to admit he was
ashamed. Your honor, the impersonation that I gave on those videootapes. >> Yes,
>> there's no relation is alien to everything that I've ever felt or thought. I truly admired my father.
I was probably closer to my mother than to any other person than I ever will be.
and the memory of her wit and her charm and her keen human sympathy. They're dear to me to this day.
>> Mr. Ruffet, thank you. Unlike your colleague, I find you genuinely remorseful, Mr. Rafé. I think the
tragedy for you and ultimately your family was a meeting, a fateful meeting at a
probably a school cafeteria or a school ground. I don't know where it occurred with Mr. Burns.
>> Judge Martell saved his harshest words for Sebastian Burns. >> Mr. Burns, you're not immoral. You're
amoral. You are an arrogant, convicted killer. You are not a kid, as you so often refer
to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held responsible as an adult for your premeditated, naked, vicious
massacre of this family. It is therefore the conclusion of this court that you should be sentenced on
count one to life without possibility of parole, count two to life without possibility of parole, and on count
three to life without possibility of parole. those three sentences to run consecutively.
>> Put it back up here. >> It's taken them a decade, but prosecutors will send the Rafé's only
son and his best friend to prison for life. >> We've been saying all along they thought
they planned the perfect murder. >> Justice has been done for the three victims and our community has held the
two individuals responsible for this accountable for their conduct. There is a great deal of satisfaction in being
part of that. A great deal of satisfaction. [Music] [Music] Before we begin, just a trigger warning.
The following episode contains references to graphic physical violence. Please listen with care.
Welcome to Killer Conversation, a podcast about the criminal mind. My name is Judy Ryback and I'm a longtime 48
hours producer. This is part two of my conversation with Peter Vans about his interviews with two
convicted killers, Sebastian Burns and Aif Rafé. Burns and Rafé were just teenagers when they murdered Rafé's
family, and they might never have been caught were it not for a Canadian sting known as the Mr. Big operation.
So, Peter, Mr. Big, what is that? So, this was a unit within the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, an undercover
unit that would pose as a organized crime family. And they had the ability when they had a target to get that
person entwined in their illegal business, what the what the target thought would be illegal. One of the
undercover officers told me, "Peter, we have never had a target who we did not successfully pull into our organized
crime family." And he said, "I'm talking doctors, lawyers, bankers, they were brilliant at this." And so the there was
the house was bugged and an undercover officer hears that Sebastian is going to get his haircut at a salon in downtown.
um Vancouver and they decide this is our moment to make an approach to him. They'd also learned that Sebastian and
Aif had been working on a screenplay called The Great Despisers. And it's a story about two young men wrongfully
accused of murdering a family. Wow. Where did they get that idea, Judy? Where do you where do you think they got
that? And so when Sebastian came out of the the barber shop, there was a member of the Mr. Big undercover team waiting
who approaches him and says, "Hey, how's it going? You know, I let I I left my keys in my car here. You know, can you
do me a favor? Drive me down to the local hotel. I got an extra set of keys down there." And um and so the adventure
with the Mr. Big Team began, >> right? They uh they went to a bar and they started talking and forming a
relationship and uh and they because they knew about the screenplay, they sort of used that to to reel him in,
right? Like at some point he said, "I know somebody who I think can fund your movie, who can give you money to make
your film. Let's go meet him." And that very same night they went to go meet with Mr. Big, who they called Al. Right.
>> Yes. I've met Al. I've uh interviewed Al in Shadow. Um the all the guys on this
undercover team were among the most talented I have ever seen. They looked like character actors out of a Hollywood
movie. And uh not long after they they meet this mobster Al, Mr. Big, he asked Sebastian to drive a very expensive
stolen car from Whistler Mountain outside of Vancouver back to the city. And Sebastian agreed. And after the
delivery, Sebastian was paid $200. That made him anger angry because he wanted a
lot more money than that. But instead of running away from what he thought was a
criminal enterprise, Sebastian told them he wanted more money. >> Right? >> This is what remember I told you these
guys said, "We always get somebody. They once they see our world, we were able to
hook somebody. >> They know their audience, right?" >> So he and Jimmy Moshi, we remember his
roommate. They agreed to start laundering money for this Mr. Big Enterprise and they were paid $2,000 for
that. Oh, these are guys that can't get jobs. They're suddenly raking in the dough. They're going, they're having
excitement. They're living on the edge, right? >> And Sebastian ends up working for this
criminal enterprise for nearly 4 months. >> I think we should just clarify that Jimmy Moshi was a high school friend who
they were living with at the time of the Sting operation. So eventually Sebastian
was asked if he was willing to ready for this commit murder. >> The only reason why I'm talking like
that, if you follow the whole conversation, you'll see he's asking me a lot of questions about how does my
conscience handle crime. And this is after he's already confessed to me that he's a murderer himself and after he's
also told me that he's worried that I'm a threat to his organization. He's worried that I'm reluctant to work for
them. And it was clear that he was worried that I was going to tell them to the police. and the only conceivable
purpose. I told him at this point that that wouldn't bother my conscience, but I wouldn't want to do it myself. And he
continued to ask me question. >> You're saying I'd do it, but I wouldn't do it. You're saying, "Yeah, I'd kill somebody,
but you know, I guess I wouldn't kill somebody." Is that what you're saying we should take from that exchange?
>> Well, what you should take from that exchange is that I was trying to satisfy
him that I wasn't going to tell the police what he just confessed to me. And I also told him, however, that I didn't
want to do it. I mean, the some >> Are we getting a glimpse here into the real Sebastian Burns, a man who had
murdered a family and is now telling one of these undercover guys, you're willing
to do it again? >> No, that's completely not true. And if you read the rest of that excerpt,
Peter, I think that it will be more clear that what I'm telling him there is that I do not want to do that.
>> So, is it true, did he try to walk away? Did he ever say no to anything? No, he
stays. Uh he says because he was afraid of what they would do to him if he didn't. But we already know that he is
delighted and they've heard on these u these bugging devices he's delighted by the money that's coming in.
>> So they they tell the boys that um that there's that they've heard that there's
evidence against them in the case in Washington, right? They have a memo that they show them that says that police
found hairs and DNA and blood evidence that's going to that's going to turn the whole case around. And they tell the
boys that um that they can help get rid of that evidence. >> Yeah, this is really convincing stuff.
Uh this is per very persuasive to him that oh my god, they've got this they've got this evidence and Mr. big with all
his connections can destroy that evidence. But there but Sebastian has to agree to do something. What is it, Judy?
>> He has to confess to the murders. >> That's right. And this is very clever. And this is where, you know, in the
United States at that time, if there was an undercover operation like this, you tell me, would this be admissible?
>> No, absolutely not. Yeah, >> you're absolutely right. It would not be admissible. And um and Sebastian is, you
know, he's heading down that drain. It's swirling and he's he's he's losing um control because now they're going to
have to tell Mr. Big exactly what happened to Mr. Big's satisfaction at Aif's family's home. And eventually
Sebastian and Aif are sitting in a room with Mr. Big. They're unaware that there's a hidden video camera and it's
recording every second of their conversation, picture and sound. [Music] So, this is a first meeting with Mr. Big
and and his people. Um, what did they say? What did they tell them about about the murders? There's no doubt about it.
Sebastian admits to doing the murders and he details how he did it. Beginning with the mother, then the father, then
the daughter, all beaten with the bat. >> Yeah. The way he confesses on that uh undercover tape is is so matterof fact
and and at times he even laughs about it. You you talk to him about that. >> Your behavior on that tape when there's
some laughing, did you think that the murder of the Rafé family was some sort of a comedy? No, absolutely not. But we
were lying and I was not thinking about the murder of the Rafé family when I was
talking. I was trying to pass off a story. And for whatever reason, I guess the way that the whole ordeal affected
me was to get nervous and to kind of giggle a bit. And I mean, in one sense, I was trying to act casual. And in
another way, I was, I guess, just genuinely giggling nervously. Uh, >> you laugh when you say Bosman needed a
little extra bat work. That's sick, isn't it? >> Well, yes. Uh, I don't want to split
hairs, but the quote is actually a little more effort. Uh, I mean, not that it's much better, and I guess that is
just splitting hairs, but at the same time, it's a little bit different. Uh, >> it's not that's not any better. Effort
is still outrageous. You laugh when you're talking about killing Bosma. >> Yeah. Well, we were lying. And at that
point, I felt very awkward because I didn't know what to say about it to Al because we didn't do it. And I was
making up a story and I was chuckling awkwardly because I didn't know what to say. And I was, we had already heard
some of the details in the newspaper about what supposedly happened there. And I was just in a really awkward
position. And I was just kind of chuckling nervously. Sebastian, aren't we looking
at you on this videotape? The real Sebastian Burns, the person who planned this murder, killed these people, and
has no conscience to the point where you can laugh about it. >> No, that's completely wrong. No, you are
never seeing the real me on any of these tapes, in my opinion. >> In my opinion, what an odd thing to say.
Sebastian claims he was forced to confess that he was afraid of what the mob boss might do to him if he didn't.
So Aif is there that day and he also confessed. Um they they needed both boys there, right?
>> Yeah. But Aif claims that he also felt trapped in that moment and had had no no
choice that you know if they confessed the mob boss was going to protect him, you know, and destroy that evidence down
in Belleview. Uh, and if they didn't, who knows what would have happened to them.
>> I certainly had no way of dealing with the situation other than the one that they that that was offered by the
undercover operatives where they whereby somehow they would essentially magically
take care of all our problems. And I certainly I I can say that I almost enjoyed the irony of making a false
confession in order to obtain a true exoneration. I thought that was kind of neat.
>> Neat. It was neat making up a story about his murdered family. >> What can I say? And uh like Sebastian,
he laughed when he talked about the murder of his sister Bosma. >> You have declined to discuss the details
of these murders during the course of this interview. What you saw inside your own house, right?
>> And yet in front of two mobsters, >> you laugh about it and you give complete
detail about what happened inside that house. I don't get it. It's easier to talk about a fiction than it is to about
the truth. I think in that way, um, I didn't have any emotional feelings about the a fake story that I was telling.
>> He doesn't ever have any emotional feelings. Uh, or it doesn't appear that he's emotional. Anyway, to a lot of
people, what the Canadian officers did feels like entrament and coerced confessions. In fact, Sebastian's sister
made a documentary about the Mr. a big operation that got Innocence International to take on Aif and
Sebastian's case. But all of the appeals were denied >> at the time when I was covering this and
the way it was explained in court is that this was an undercover operation that was completely legal in Canada at
that time. Eventually became illegal, but at that time it was legal. And here in the US, there was an exception called
the silver platter doctrine, which said that if an operation was legal in the country where it was conducted, it was
then admissible here in the United States. And defense attorneys tried to get the video thrown out, but the judge
in Sebastian's trial allowed jurors to watch it. And on it, the boys confess. >> Do you think they would have been
convicted without those tapes? I am not sure that they would have been convicted with what the neighbors had
heard >> of these killings going on at a time when the boys were seen in a movie
theater. Um I think there is hung jury was a real possibility or or an acquitt was a real
possibility. This this was this was the moment, >> right? Or there may never have been a
trial, right? >> Those of you who've been listening to all this, what do you think?
>> Right? >> If that tape had not been played, um would these boys have been convicted? I
think there's a excellent chance that they would not have been. So, a little over a year after the murders, they tell
these Canadian officers that they committed the murders, but it took nearly six years to extradite them. Why?
>> Well, at the heart of this was the death penalty. There is no death penalty for
murder in Canada. And the Canadian government said they're not going to extradite the boys until uh the judge in
this case agreed to take and prosecutors agreed to take the death penalty off the
table, which eventually happened. >> Right. Both boys were represented by public defenders and there's kind of a
crazy story about how they were pulled off the case. >> Is it true that Sebastian had sex with
one of his attorneys? >> Yeah. So, I'll I'll leave her name out of it. She's been through so much. But he had
this dynamic u woman attorney that um was considered one of the best in the public defender's
office. She had gone uh to Japan to see Jimmy Mioshi. Remember, he was Sebastian
and Natif's roommate in Vancouver, British Columbia. And uh Jimmy had been accused of conspiring in the murders.
And and he made a deal with the state to testify against his friends. And then he
moved to Japan. Well, Sebastian's lawyer flew to Japan to meet with him. And she
came back. She was incredibly excited because she claimed that Jimmy told her that he felt leaned on to make the deal.
and she was excited that that if she could present this in court, it would completely undermine him as a as a
witness. And I was told by the prosecutor in the case uh who talked to the guards who who watched some of this
unfold, she ran into his uh meeting into the meeting room. Um she gives him this
big hug. She tells him the news. They hug again. And then the hug immediately progressed into um removal of clothing.
um a guard who was watching all of this called two other guards over and because
they were on a slightly second floor that they could look down and see this window on the door, this small window
could see inside and they said, "Do you see what I see? Okay, do you see what I see?" Yeah, we all know what that is.
Okay, well then let's go break this up. And it's a felony to have sex with an inmate in in jail like that. and uh she
uh had her law license suspended. She was taken off the case and she had a partner who was who was uh incredibly
bright and talented and the two of them were were taken off cuz they were a team. So when these two defense
attorneys come instead of having years of research behind them, they had a few months to get prepared for this and uh
that was devastating to Sebastian and Aif's case. [Music] So, speaking of Jimmy Moshi, he had a
lot to say in his deposition. Um, he said that a told him that he had wanted to kill his family and that he was
present when Sebastian killed his mother. >> Yeah. He said he'd been present when
Sebastian had discussed their plans to murder the family. And he specifically said he recall them saying that they
plan to stay at the Rafé home for a few days before the murder so their DNA and hair would be explainable when it was
discovered uh during forensic examination. >> Part of the plan, part of the master
plan. So there was a bit of physical evidence that showed that there might have been someone else involved in the
murder, at least of Tariq. What was that? Well, there was a hair, just a single hair, found on the body of Tariq
Rafé that didn't belong to anyone in the family or Sebastian. Now, of course, Tariq worked in the outside world, and
being at work, if somebody had given him a hug or anything else, you could see transference there. Uh, but there was
also, and this was really strange, there was blood in the garage that was discovered that didn't belong to anyone
in the family or to Sebastian. M >> and also then don't forget the two neighbors who testified that they heard
a commotion at the house >> at a time when the boys were in that movie theater. >> Right. Right. So Sebastian took the
witness stand which doesn't surprise me at all. What about you? >> It doesn't surprise me. I'll use that
phrase brilliantly stupid. >> Uh his attorney said don't do this. We have a chance. there's um some
reasonable doubt in here and um do not do this. And Sebastian insisted >> if he was anything like he was in your
interview, I can only imagine that the jury just hated him. >> Yeah, it's it he had that same attitude,
right? >> He was very put out while answering questions. Um and uh that that attitude
is of I'm smarter than you uh and I'm the one you should believe. So, at at his sentencing, Sebastian
never showed any remorse, told the jurors they were wrong, and went on for nearly 2 hours. What did he say?
>> Yeah, I was there. Um, this was a theater in the round, uh, one man performance. He talked to the judge
directly, but also then turned back to talk to the people in the room, all of us that were there. Um, he insisted he
was innocent, repeated himself over and over about why the jury was wrong. He threw his defense team under the bus,
called them ineffective. >> He claimed he didn't know he would testify until the morning of and was
unprepared. That's not true. Defense attorney had had told me that they had urged him not to do this. He forced them
to put him on the stand. He insisted that he had not had his day in court and asked that if he could have a new trial
and represent himself. The judge told him to wrap it up many times. >> This is what the judge said when he
sentenced Sebastian to three consecutive life sentences. Mr. Burns, you are not immoral. You are amoral. You are an
arrogant convicted killer. You are not a kid as you so often refer to yourself. You're an adult and you will be held
responsible as an adult for your premeditated naked vicious massacre of this family. Of all the mic drops I've
ever heard delivered from the bench, that was epic. >> If I may say, a touch of genius from the
judge. Such as Aif might say, such irony for the two geniuses whose brilliance and arrogance had turned on them and led
to their demise. >> Yes. Yes. On the other hand, Aif seemed to get choked up at his sentencing. He
didn't admit to his crime, but he showed remorse for his behavior >> for the first time. And um I had
interviewed him and things. Uh I saw some humanity there. Um the big question always in a situation
like that is is he sad for what he did or is he sad that he got caught? >> Right. Exactly. And was it genuine or
was he just terrified? [Music] So they both got three consecutive life sentences without the possibility of
parole. And of course they vowed to fight their wrongful conviction, but they're never getting out. Right.
Well, it's doubtful now. Uh Sebastian has exhausted all of his appeals. Uh Te has one more to go, but I I think it is
very it is very doubtful that uh uh that they will ever see life outside of a prison cell. Here's an exchange I had
with Patif. >> How would you describe what has happened to you? Um, I don't know. I guess we'd have to use
words like disaster and calamity and other things. Um, it's very easy to fall into the rut of self-pity and so I try
not to think on it too much. Um, luckily uh it's very easy to uh I guess think of other things and fall
into a sort of uh unmindfulness of your present situation. And here is Sebastian.
Do >> you still see the images of of their bodies when you think about the Rafé house? When you think about that Nike,
you still see it in your mind's eye? Is it something you live with? That memory?
Truly, I don't know. It was something that was very much with me for I know the first year after it happened.
Um especially with the first few weeks. Um it's been 10 years now and so and a lot of ways I'm over it.
>> Why do you think they never turned on each other? I still believe that they believe and
this is what has sustained them all these years is that one day they will outsmart the system on appeal.
>> They're down to their last one for a could ever have turned on Sebastian his his idol and his mentor.
>> Right. So today they're both 49 years old. They're still in custody in the Monroe Correctional Complex. A Tif was
married in in 2017, but is now divorced. Not surprisingly, he seems to have been
or is a model prisoner, studying and teaching and writing papers and articles. Um, all we know about
Sebastian is that his parents visit him once a month, and according to them, he spent 10 years in solitary confinement.
Well, Peter, we could go on forever, but we won't. >> Yeah, somebody wrote a book about it.
>> Yes, you did. >> that my relatives bought. Perfectly executed is the book. I wrote it with
Janet Jackson, one of the producers. >> All right. Thank you again. >> Yeah. And thanks for reliving this with
me. It is It is one of the most extraordinary cases of my career and one I'll carry with me forever.
>> I can see why. 48 hours Killer Conversation is hosted and produced by me, Judy Ryback. Our
story editor is Mora Walls. Alan Pang oversees recording, mixing, and sound design, factchecking, and additional
production support from Rebecca Laflam. And special thanks to 48 hours executive
producer Judy Tyiggard and Paramount Podcast Vice President Megan Marcus.

What’s it like to sit across from a killer and ask the questions no one else can? "48 Hours" producer Judy Rybak sits down with correspondents Erin Moriarty and Peter Van Sant for revealing conversations about how the criminal mind works. Through behind-the-scenes stories and moments that never made it to air, "Killer Conversation" pulls back the curtain on what it’s really like to sit across from someone capable of murder and how that experience still haunts them years later.

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Brief Summary

Aif Rafé and Sebastian Burns were convicted of murdering Aif's family, with chilling confessions revealed during an undercover sting operation.

Key points

The Intruder Theory. Jerry Jones claims an intruder killed Lee, but evidence suggests otherwise.
The Jury's Verdict. After a tense trial, the jury finds Jerry Jones guilty of murder in the first degree.
The 911 Call. Jerry's 911 call is filled with confusion, raising doubts about his credibility during the emergency.
The Disappearance of Jaime Ley. No one realized Jaime had disappeared for weeks, raising concerns among her friends and family.
Brian Takes the Stand. In a shocking move, Brian Stewart takes the stand, claiming he knows what happened to Jaime.
Job Loss and Isolation. Jaime's job loss adds strain to her relationship with Brian, leading to emotional turmoil.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

He was both verbally and physically mean.

Testimony from Jerry's former girlfriends.

26:15WatchJul 17, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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