Officer Talon | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

Scott Foster: In this situation, we're going to say that this is a vehicle that got pursued.
It was a stolen vehicle that had a wanted person in it who had just robbed a store and
victimized somebody. Phoebe Judge: This is Corporal Scott Foster of the Hillsborough, North Carolina, Police
Department. Scott Foster: In this person's wild dash to get away, they came to this really rural type
area. They can't go anywhere else in the vehicle. You've got a big pond on one side and woods all the way around.
The natural instinct's going be that they're going to get out and jump and run on foot.
Phoebe Judge: We met him on a gigantic empty piece of land in a town called Swepsonville.
And before we met, he wrote to tell us it would probably be a good idea to wear comfortable
shoes. Scott Foster: So you're going to play the part of the bad guy now. And you're actually going to run on foot.
Phoebe Judge: Lauren, who produces the show, took off running into the woods and hid.
Scott Foster: I'm going to grab Vader and come back here and you can play the part as
my cover officer, as we enter in these woods and actually locate her. Phoebe Judge: It was like a high-stakes game of hide-and-go-seek in these huge dense woods.
But all the looking was being done by a $12,000 German shepherd from Slovakia. So he just smelled — Scott Foster: He smelled the scent article.
Phoebe Judge: The gauze that Lauren was wearing. Scott Foster: That's to indicate to him that that is the odor that we're going to be following.
Phoebe Judge: So in real life, officers will often rub the seat of the driver's car with
a piece of gauze to transfer the suspect's smell. Scott Foster: I'll introduce it to him one more time.
And then we will be off and ready to go. Phoebe Judge: When Vader tracks someone, he wears a special dog vest that signals to him
that it's time to go tracking. The minute the vest was on, Vader got to work. His nose was glued to the ground, and I was running after him with a recorder.
And this is, it's kind of fast. Scott Foster: It is fast. Phoebe Judge: I mean, we're not just strolling here.
Scott Foster: No, we're not strolling. If you'll notice his body, see how his nose is to the ground?
Phoebe Judge: He's not even looking up. Scott Foster: He's not even looking up. Phoebe Judge: Because his eyes don't really matter.
Scott Foster: It's his nose. Exactly. In this environment, she could be anywhere.
Notice his pace is picking up a little bit. Phoebe Judge: [Winded.] We're trying to keep up with Vader.
Scott Foster: See his head coming up? See how he's looking? That indicates to me that he's actually smelling her at this point.
Phoebe Judge: Within a certain distance, the dogs don't need to track anymore. They can smell the actual hiding person and go right to them.
Scott Foster: Good boy, Vader. Good boy. Lauren Spohrer: Good job! Phoebe Judge: [Breathing heavily.]
It's hard for me to catch up with you all. So he found her? Scott Foster: He did find her.
He actually came right to her. Lauren Spohrer: So from the point of view of the person who's running, it makes me feel
like you, if I were a criminal — Phoebe Judge: You're screwed. Lauren Spohrer: You're screwed.
There's no way. Scott Foster: There's no getting away. Yeah. And a lot of times what'll happen is, they will initially run a short distance and hide,
and then they'll see us coming and they're like, how are they finding me? And they'll run a little further, and then they'll hide.
And that's when the panic sets in, and what they don't realize is the more panic and adrenaline
they get off, the easier they're actually making our job. Lauren Spohrer: The more smell.
Scott Foster: The more smell, exactly. The more smell. But if you could imagine that track at 3:00 in the morning in the dark, just officers
looking, there's no way. Phoebe Judge: We tracked Lauren about a quarter of a mile.
And Vader found her in less than three minutes. Scott Foster: In the daylight and in a trained scenario, it's fun, almost amazing to do this,
but it adds a whole different element when you're hunting a known armed bad guy.
Because anyone with a gun could have shot at us. So the ability to be ambushed is so great.
And unfortunately, here in North Carolina, just a little over a year ago, a handler by
the name of Jason Crisp was tracking a domestic violence suspect and got within about 30 yards
of him, and he shot and killed both the handler and the dog with a shotgun. So it's something you have to keep in the back of your mind.
But you also have to have a lot of trust in your dog to know that you're going to be able
to read those behaviors and safely be able to come out of the woods. Phoebe Judge: So when he finds someone in the woods or is chasing somebody down, what
would they do? Scott Foster: Even though we look at them as locating tools, they can be deployed for
compliance, but it's pain compliance. Meaning when they bite, they don't maul someone.
They don't tear them up. They're trained to bite and hold with a lot of pressure.
And one of the things that makes them better than any other tool we have is we can recall
them. If we deploy a gun or a taser or even pepper spray, once we make that decision to deploy
it, there's no pulling it back. With the dogs, we can do that. That's one thing we train.
They're the only tool we have that we can actually do that with. Phoebe Judge: Scott and his fellow officers meet every week to train their dogs.
They're required to train at least 16 hours each month. On the day we met up with them, there were six human officers and six canine officers.
It's very interesting. All of these... We're here with not just you, but with a lot of different people from the Sheriff's Department
of Alamance County. But they all have their dog's names on the window. Scott Foster: Yeah.
And I think that's interesting because people, a lot of times, think that these dogs are
just a piece of equipment. It always shocks me when I hear that, but I talk to people and one of the questions
they always ask me is, "Does he go home with you? Are you his only handler?" And to me, it sounds so crazy to even think that possibly someone else could handle him,
but it dawned on me, the general public don't really know that. They think that the dog could be handled by anybody in the department.
And it's so far from the case. And naturally, as handlers, you get bonded to these dogs.
They're like family members. So sometimes I think the names on the car is just a spilling over of that.
You're proud of these dogs. You want people to know, hey, that's Britt, that's Falco, that's Vader, that's Talon.
So I think that's a lot of times how that comes in. [Dog barking.] Suspect come out to my voice.
Speaker 1: What? I wasn't doing nothing. Scott Foster: I have a trained police dog.
You need to do what I say, do it now. Speaker 1: I wasn't doing anything. Scott Foster: Suspect [inaudible].
Phoebe Judge: They were acting as decoy suspects for one another, even shooting blanks to desensitize
the dogs to the sound of loud gunfire. Police Officer: Suspect, show me your hands.
[Gunshots, dogs barking.] Phoebe Judge: But we thought the wildest thing they did was put on a huge padded suit, with
about two inches of padding all the way around. And the officers get bit by each other's dogs.
Oh my gosh. This looks like — OK. Scott Foster: Police dogs, come on up for this.
Phoebe Judge: So you've got the, he's got the whole suit on. Scott Foster: He does.
Phoebe Judge: How is the dog — the dog is just going to get him wherever he wants?
Scott Foster: Not necessarily. We do teach our dogs to target. We have different areas we want them to target that's going to do a minimal amount of damage.
Typically we like them to target inner bicep, outer forearm, calf, or back of the thigh.
We try to keep them away from areas... Or triceps. We try to keep them away from anywhere where there's nice veins and stuff, arteries and
stuff, that we don't want to be damaged. See his full mouth? See how deeply that's in there?
The force is coming from the back of his teeth. The damage is caused by the front of the teeth.
So we actually train that. Phoebe Judge: What's amazing about watching the dogs bite is that once they've closed
their back teeth, they don't move. Even if the decoy hits them or swings them all over the place, the dog holds steady.
So the dog is off the ground. He's just holding on with his mouth. Scott Foster: Yeah, exactly.
Phoebe Judge: The dog won't release until he gets the command and then he stands guard.
So this is like the dog's working as your partner? Scott Foster: Exactly. Phoebe Judge: Even spending half a day with them, it's obvious that these highly trained
dogs can absolutely do things that a human being never could. It also became obvious pretty quickly that this wasn't going to be just a story about
how effective police dogs can be. It was about something else. Because long before Vader, Scott had a different partner, his original partner, and now all
three of them live together in a sort of complicated canine love triangle, complete with sneaking
around and feeling guilty. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. Scott Foster: He's 10 years old.
We were paired together when he was about 16 months old. Phoebe Judge: We went to Scott's house to meet his original partner, Talon.
Talon is enormous, much bigger and sturdier-seeming than Vader. Scott Foster: Talon's really awesome.
I can't help but just smile every time I talk about Talon. I'd like to say it was immediately a match made in heaven, but that really wasn't the
case. He was a dominant dog and it took a lot for us to get that bonding process down.
But when we finally did, we were pretty much inseparable. Phoebe Judge: And so who is he out here with?
Scott Foster: That's actually my personal dog. That's also a shepherd from Europe and her name's Dutch.
I got her early on, not so much to train, but just whenever we're off duty, I like Talon
to fully be able to relax. So he could have a true home life, as opposed to just feeling like a little furry robot
that would go to work and work, and then come home and just be put in a kennel. So I actually got her just to give him some companionship and a pet-like experience whenever
he was off duty. Phoebe Judge: Scott's house and yard are fully equipped to accommodate his dogs.
He has five in total. The two police dogs, Dutch, and then two tiny white lap dogs that live inside.
Their names are Wicket and Cricket. But Talon was first. Scott Foster: One time in particular, I can really remember very clearly, we had tracked
a person who had robbed a convenience store and he had wrecked his car and ran, much like
the scenario we just did. And at this point, we had tracked a great distance. I know Talon was really tired.
I was exhausted. We had lost our cover officers. And I think a lot of people who were assisting had given up faith that we were going to catch
this guy. And I was just having conversations with Talon, real heartfelt conversations.
I really wanted to catch this guy, bad. Phoebe Judge: What does a heartfelt conversation with Talon sound like?
Scott Foster: "You're good enough to do this. We've done this in training. We've been in these situations before."
Just — not panicked, but like a father encouraging a son in the big game. Halftime, we're down by 10 and I'm trying to encourage him.
"You can come back, you can still get him." And through this conversation I was having with him, I was referencing the bad guy as
“him.” I kept saying, "We'll get him. You can get him." And all of a sudden, the guy stood up.
He was hiding under some kudzu about 25 foot from where we were at. And he said, "You've already got him.
I'm right here." That was really a proud moment, just because everything that I was expressing to Talon
through telling him, "You can do this, you can do this," he had actually already done
it. The guy was right there with us and that's why we hadn't went any further. He hadn't lost him.
It's just that we were literally right on top of him. Phoebe Judge: I told Scott when we arrived that I was a little afraid of dogs.
Scott said he could tell that I was standing a little stiffly, and that Talon could pick
up on it too. Oh my God. Hello. Scott Foster: Talon, kemne. His commands are in Czech.
And where that comes from is with them getting most of their initial training up until that
12 to 14 months, being in Europe, it was only natural that they trained them in those languages.
So when they come here, rather than trying to change that, ideally — and I say, ideally,
because it don't always work — is to teach the handler the Czech commands. So I probably speak more of a Southern Czech.
If anybody's listening to this, they might not even understand what I'm saying, but he
fully understands it. And an added benefit is it also allows us to give them commands on the street without
people, especially bad guys, knowing exactly what we're telling them. Phoebe Judge: So could you demonstrate some of your Czech?
Scott Foster: My Southern Czech. Talon, kemne. Good boy. Sedni. Stuj. Stuj. Pozor.
Pozor. [Talon barks.] Pozor. Pozor. Phoebe Judge: So Talon, who Lauren had been playing with the whole time, suddenly sat
right at her feet, looked her straight in the eyes, and barked — a lot — just because
Scott had told him to. Scott Foster: And so basically what that was, if you'll notice, he was rather unnervingly
keying up on Lauren. I had him do it instead of at you, Phoebe, for a reason. I was afraid Phoebe may drop the mic and take off, take off running,
but it's just because it's a trained response. Talon, kemne. Sedni. OK. Now you can see just his personality completely changes, to where he goes more of that neutral
type. "You can pet me. It's OK. If you don't, it's OK also, but I'm not mad at you after the last command that my daddy
gave you. It's just because he was telling me what to do." Phoebe Judge: After eight years with the Hillsborough Police Department, Talon had to retire from
service early, after he got hurt when he and Scott were tracking a suspect and Talon followed
his nose right into an attic. Scott Foster: As you all know, when you walk in an attic, you have to walk on the ceiling
joist, or you fall through. Talon wasn't able to be that reasonable and fell through the ceiling and actually hurt
his leg. He was OK for a while, but then arthritis started showing. And even if you'll notice today, he's got a little limp in that front leg.
So we had to retire him early. Phoebe Judge: The town of Hillsborough held a retirement ceremony for Talon in January
of this year, where he was presented with a plaque and a bone. And then Talon was officially given to Scott by the town.
Scott Foster: He wasn't just "Talon the dog." He was K-9 Officer Talon. He interacted with people.
And he was so successful over the course of his career that I think the initial thought
was: how's another dog even going to come close to replacing Talon, because he was so
good? And then came Vader. Phoebe Judge: Vader officially began his work as Talon's replacement in September.
Talon stays home now. He has his pal Dutch to keep him company. But even she's impressed by the new guy.
Scott Foster: For so long, I think she looked at Talon truly as an alpha, but then here
comes Vader, this new young, strong, energetic dog. It's interesting to maybe see and wonder where her true loyalty lies now.
Phoebe Judge: Oh, that's kind of sad. Scott Foster: It is kind of sad. Sometimes I feel like Vader took Talon's job and his woman all in one quick swoop.
Phoebe Judge: Have Talon and Vader ever met each other? Scott Foster: They have.
If you'll notice, Vader's got a scar on his nose and Talon does too. That was the result of them actually meeting each other.
Phoebe Judge: They went crazy? Scott Foster: Yeah, exactly. They immediately fall...
I tried to integrate them early on, where I would crate them near each other, and I
tried to do all the different things like they say, when you enter a new dog to the
family. But the problem is those type recommendations aren't for police working dogs.
It may work with some dogs, but these dogs are such high alpha males and they think that
they are absolutely at the top. For another dog who equally thinks that, the challenge, it's just always just going to
be a fight. Phoebe Judge: I bet you complicate things too. Scott Foster: I do. Yeah.
I actually do complicate things a great deal. Phoebe Judge: Because they both want you to like them the best.
Scott Foster: Exactly. And for so long, I was truly the super alpha to both of them.
That when the two get together, I'm almost torn a bit. So it works out best just to keep them completely separated.
I think eventually I could probably put them together, but I think what that would require
would be Talon taking a step down. And I just really hate to do that to him. Phoebe Judge: Can you imagine if Talon saw Vader and you drive away in the police car?
Scott Foster: It would have to be heartbreaking. And that's why I go to such extent with the different kennels and the different parts
of my yard, just to make sure it doesn't happen. So, it may be silly to a certain point that I'm putting human emotions on an animal that
might not feel it, but I don't want him to see Vader, in equipment that he would recognize
and me in a uniform that he would recognize, leaving in what at one time was his car.
Phoebe Judge: And in terms of keeping them separate, I mean, it's like you're living
these two lives, like you're cheating on Talon with Vader. Scott Foster: Yeah, it's funny you should say that because there has been different
times that it has happened where I've slipped up and one's potentially seen me with the
other one. It's that very feeling, like you've just described. It's almost like, oops, I got caught, kind of thing.
But honestly, I think it's worth it. They put so much into protecting me, serving the community.
And I just really feel that I owe it to them to try to do everything I can — and especially
Talon, to let him hold onto that dignity that he had for so long. Phoebe Judge: Scott just put his house on the market.
He says he doesn't think his place has enough room for all the dogs, which seems a little
wild because it actually looks like a dog paradise. But Scott says until maybe one day when Talon and Vader can be together, he wants to make
sure they both have enough room so neither one feels like they're getting the bum deal.
[Music swells.] If you'd like to see a video of me wearing that nutty padded suit and being attacked
by a police dog, go to our website, thisiscriminal.com. Criminal is produced by Lauren Spohrer and me.
Audio engineering help from Rob Byers. Special thanks to everyone at the Hillsborough Police Department and Alamance County Sheriff's
office. Julienne Alexander makes our illustrations. You can see them on our website and our new Instagram, Criminal_Podcast.
Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. And we're a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collective of the 13 best podcasts
around. Shows like Love + Radio. On their latest, Timothy Wyllie died and then his story began.
In the remote high deserts of New Mexico, a door opens to the world beyond and the world
within. Speaker 2: For instance, a schizophrenic, as long as he can handle it, as long as he
can get on with life, just manage. I mean, he's just got a different perception.
You can call it schizophrenia if you want, but the fact that you might hear voices, I
hear voices. [Inaudible.] Half my life, I've heard voices. They give me good advice.
Phoebe Judge: Go listen. Radiotopia from PRX is supported by the Knight Foundation and MailChimp, celebrating creativity,
chaos, and teamwork. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal. Jingle: Radiotopia. From PRX.

North Carolina-based Police Corporal, Scott Foster, had the perfect K-9 partner in Talon. Together they cracked down on weapons and narcotics smuggling, chasing down suspects and heading home together after a long day of work. Unfortunately an injury on the job forced Talon into early retirement and Corporal Foster was paired with a new K-9 partner. This is where the story gets complicated.

Watch Phoebe get attacked by a police dog: https://youtu.be/aRYkHA98MzY

Music in this episode: “This Whole World Loves Me” by Minden “Stop the Clocks” by Alan Singley “One Last Sunset” by Alan Singley “Strange Bird” by Lisa Germano “Theme in G” by Tate Peterson “Improvisation in D” by Tate Peterson “Kentucky Mule” by Tate Peterson “Secret Place” by Alex Fitch

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. https://link.chtbl.com/n33u0HsA

Say hello on Twitter (@CriminalShow), Instagram (@criminal_podcast), and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ThisIsCriminal/.

Sign up for our occasional newsletter, The Accomplice https://bit.ly/accomplicenewsletter.

We also make This is Love and Phoebe Reads a Mystery.

Artwork by Julienne Alexander http://www.yssrs.com/.

Check out our online shop https://store.dftba.com/collections/criminal.

Episode transcripts are posted on our website https://thisiscriminal.com/.

Episode 29 originally published 10/30/2015 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-29-officer-talon-10-30-2015

Brief Summary

Corporal Scott Foster discusses police dog training, tracking techniques, and the emotional bond with his retired dog Talon.

Key points

The High-Stakes Game of Hide-and-Seek. A thrilling demonstration of police dog tracking unfolds in the woods.
The Bond Between Handler and Dog. Scott Foster shares the deep connection he has with his police dogs, especially Talon.
The Challenge of Managing Two Dogs. Scott Foster navigates the complexities of having two police dogs with strong personalities.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's hard for me to catch up with you all.

Phoebe Judge struggles to keep up with the tracking dog.

2:41WatchNov 7, 2022

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

More from Criminal | A Podcast About Crime

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.