Off The Record /// William Ramsey | Forensic Files

well I've been looking forward to this all weekend the captain sat down and had what I can only imagine to be a
fascinating conversation with an author that I'm sure that some of you have heard of or may even own some of his
books I'm talking about William Ramsey he is the author of children of the Beast prophet of evil and the book that
we recommended last week Abomination whether or not you agree with him his thoughts theories and books about
Aleister Crowley and The West Memphis Three are certainly interesting and controversial this week the captain
spoke with Ramsay about a true crime theory that is highly discussed this is the smiley face killer the smiley face
murder theory is a theory Advanced by two New York City detectives that many young men found dead in the bodies of
water across several Midwestern American states over the last decade did not accidentally drown but were in fact
victims of a serial killer or potentially multiple killers as I said I've been looking forward to this all
weekend let's listen in together on a conversation with William Ramsey and the captain
[Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music] foreign [Applause] William first I want to thank you for
joining us in the garage I've been a fan of your work as far as 9 11 as far as Aleister Crowley and as far as West
Memphis Three which is a huge popular case and a case that is near and dear to mine and Nick's heart
um and then all of a sudden I see you do this smiley face killer and I'm interested on how you got into
this theory of the smiley face killer well that's a great question I was always I kind of uh followed this
trajectory of the occult and while I was researching my most recent book which is
called Children of the Beast it's about Aleister Crowley's influence on the 20th
century I kept seeing the smiley face and I had remembered this whole series of cases that was mentioned for the last
maybe 15 20 years publicly as the smiley face killers and and that's really how I
got my start I probably started researching in early 2016 and the reason this these series of
cases of young men disappearing and then being found in water got the the name smiley face Killers is because the
original two or three well it's really three it's uh Jeff Gannon Duarte out of New York and Gilbertson they noticed
that in some of these disappearances and the drought finding the bodies in water
there's been a smiley face so I got the name the smiley face killers and this this phenomenon started over 20 years
ago and so that's really how I got interested when I started researching it in 2016
really the first case that I researched was the case that you guys on the garage
uh followed which was Joey Le beaut that was really the first case and when he disappeared I was following a researcher
who's the main researcher on my film Jim Smith and when he disappeared I said if
this guy fall gets found in water I'm going to freak out and and he was found in water 19 days late later in the uh as
you say skiota River about this spelled Kyoto but uh um so yeah that was a tragic case and that's
really kind of how I got started researching the cases so I wanted to kind of cover everything so I actually
you know a couple of the of the True Crime podcast that you covered involves some of the cases that
I also investigated as well yeah I'm not finished with the documentary yet but you also did Joshua demon
and yeah that's an interesting case as well I think I don't know if I put Ross into the documentary but I did some
Illinois cases and definitely Joey the beat what's interesting to me is this is kind of loosely uh connected to the
website the the Charlie project and I say Loosely because that's just kind of a collection of missing men in college
age roughly right yeah there's a few cases there's another one Footprints at The River's Edge which covers these
cases and a lot of the cases show up on web slits so there's just a lot of Internet researchers posting information
about these disappearances there as well which I found to be invaluable for cases
that it happened over 10 years ago you basically hone in on 30 cases I think so I think I listed them out but I I really
covered a lot of cases in the US and the UK there were more cases that have happened I did one in Thailand France
and Spain I mean excuse me but uh yeah I would say the coverage of the case is probably 40 or 45 I think as far as the
cases that fit into this type of Mo this type of sequence of events where young men are out at night disappear their
search intensely and then found much later in water I would say that there's conservatively about 150 of those cases
and possibly peaking in at a very liberal maybe 300 or 400 of these types of murders that have happened in the
world over the last 25 years 30 years right so there's hundreds and and and what are you using
to whittle that down I mean what what are your did you have like a a strict criteria or was it a little loose well I
tried to for the for the film that I made all the cases that I included were younger people out at bars who were
found in water and there are other cases that may fit outside that you and I had
chatted about shape of the Shaffer case that happened in Columbus Ohio that was another one at a bar he was never found
but that was a case that was really on the edge of whether I was going to put it in and I'd researched that as well to
shape our case through True Crime garage as a matter of fact but um so I I think there are many cases that
there are other researchers interesting who've looked into these cases they've turned them something different and I
would actually argue or state that smiley face Killers is a kind of a misnomer it just got that name because
of that's how people Associated these similar types of cases throughout multi-state jurisdictions but right
there are other there's a guy in Manchester his name's Gary Jay he is working on a documentary right now
called the Manchester Pusher about that story and there's cases that are still happening in Manchester
um there's also a girl in Boston her name was Elise Soper I interviewed her and she wrote about the Boston drownings
on her excellent blog called Cryptid antiquarian and she you know she's a great writer but that K those cases that
she posted about garnered her I think it was something crazy I think it is either half a million or a million
people viewed it she had like 200 or 300 comments on that blog so people were reading that with great interest so and
those Boston cases I included as well Zach Marr um some of these other more recent cases
so I really tried you know I based my research upon Gilbert and gannon's excellent book it's called case studies
of for instance forensic drownings and built on their kind of General thesis and then you will like we said you
whittled that down to about 30 or 40 uh different victims correct and I Pro you know I had a much larger list but those
are the ones that came to my attention and even since the the finishing of the documentary in October of 2017 there's
probably been another 20 cases or 30 cases so um yeah it's remarkable you know there's
these cases happening all over the world really there were some in Hamburg Poland
um there was one in Vienna so you know it's uh it's remarkable can we go through just a short list of when you're
watching the documentary it starts becoming very apparent well one the age range
almost the type of victim where they're located before they go missing can you dive into that a little bit absolutely I
mean I think that you know their age range is probably is college age so it's somewhere between 18 or 19. I would say
the mean age is 23 24 but it goes up to 28 there's been some outliers are included in a 30 couple 30 year old men
but yeah but but even the even them they they almost appear younger true excellent point you know there's been a
couple cases these guys could easily pass for somebody in their 20s um but you know the the there's one
researcher who has kind of made a spreadsheet and he came down to the body mass index all these guys are fit
healthy people there's almost nobody with a beer belly or overweight or oversized they're almost all
fitting into a very narrow graph of you know young fit men so that's that's a remarkable thing about
these cases which is which is interesting on two levels because I had a detective look at this and they said
well well one nobody's oversized as nobody's really tall nobody's really strong like
brooding men uh and nobody's way overweight so then there would be easy easier to take control of but also
easier to move the body later I mean and I think it shows this kind of this this planning and the selection of
some of these men I believe that they're they're selected or targeted on the nights that they're out can can you dive
into that a little bit I mean I think that you know when I was researching these cases and a lot of things that
didn't go into the documentary there were actually a couple near people who survived being drugged
um in yeah in the case studies in forensic drownings they talk about a couple cases of guys who went to the
emergency room and had no memory so there's a a current of drugging either through GHB
Gannon and Gilbertson saw and and doses in some of the victims that GHB is gamma
hydroxybutyrated it's endogenous it's in your system but in large doses it capacitates people so that's a common
trait and that shows that some of these people are selected in drug it's it's like the date rape drug
um there has been other people have made public statements and actually include one case in my uh documentary about a
guy who was drugged in Boston and ended up underneath a road and called the police he said I don't even know how I
got here when he went to court he said be careful watch your drink you can get drugged so those in other cases and
there's other key people who talked or who wrote things on the Lee soper's blog and others about strange meeting strange
men who wanted to talk to them and ask them about their background and buy them a drink and so you know there's a lot of
suspicious elements there and I then there's also a some a commonality in the more recent
cases of some of these young men being on gay dating apps uh particularly Joey Le beaut Dakota James out of Pittsburgh
so that's actually fairly close to Columbus Ohio I mean not super close but it's you know some people have have
traced some of these deaths along a freeway Corridor but there was a lot of cases in Pittsburgh Jimmy Slack
you know some of these other cases but both of those young men and others um were on gay dating apps and you know
there's been not not just these types of smiley face murder type events but you know they're people criminals have used
these apps to you know roll or assault people and take their money so you know right
um so as far as the selection process those apps such as Grindr or these other ones
could you be used by perpetrators of these crimes as a selection type focus of their victim um and I include in this
case a recent case where the inquest is still going on about what happened as a case out of
London of a man using gay apps to and he was multiple names multiple gay apps to
select his victims who he murdered through GHB is it fair to say it seems like um the the cases that are older
uh to the newer case it seems like the percentage of homosexual men being targeted is going up good point I think
that that that seems to be uh more overt in these cases it seems like in the older cases there were elements to the
older cases particularly in Wisconsin of kind of gay bars but some of these newer
cases like Joey the Butte for example um associated with gay bars of Dakota James
as well so yeah I think that that's that's a good point yeah so Joey actually went missing after leaving
um the union which uh I don't know if it's actually uh considered a gay bar or just gay friendly uh I know a lot of my
friends and and other people we've gone there and drank multiple times and there
was actually a lot of rumors that there was a bartender either there or across the street that
was that eventually got in trouble for drugging um and and which I never understood why
you would drug one of your customers and it wasn't like he was doing it to take advantage of anybody that's an
interesting point well one of the aspects of that case the public isn't aware of is that the union also owns the
gay bar across the street so that they oh that's interesting yeah so that was one of the aspects that I found out
about Joey Le beaut is there is a correlation between that and he was on his phone the last text message was a
scrambled garbled message like GST ion like possibly and that's actually not uncommon in a lot of these cases a lot
of these guys send texts their last texts you know and and it could have been in a drug State and you wouldn't
know what your it might have been a cry for help but you don't know well said exactly so it's very scary that that
thing uh he didn't know what he was walking into he was walking into trouble probably the same thing with Schaefer
you know they get lured in there for one reason or another um but yeah there I mean unfortunately
the drugging elements uh still common I've hear stories even there was a prominent guy who got caught here in
Santa Monica at a very nice well-known establishment people saw him drug his date and he got caught um so you know
those are heterosexual but so these these I mean and the interesting thing about these cases I think that
women are very aware of their drink and very aware of the possibility of getting
date raped through so many cases public cases Cosby Etc but men don't seem to think that they're targets and I think
that there's this in some of these victims they don't see it coming you know so I think that that's something to
get the word out about is that young men really can be are in a a pool you know in a age group that are
being stalked or victimized by what's known as the smiley face killers when I used to play in bars every weekend and I
used to tell a lot of the listeners if you lose sight of your drink toss it just get rid of it it's not it's not
worth the three to five bucks which you don't know what happened and then the funny thing was uh or not a funny thing
was uh I was playing acoustic gig and I had a gentleman walk into the bar you know probably
um I don't know 30 feet straight to the bar didn't say hi to anybody just went right to the bar ordered two shots for
me and for him didn't know the guy brought the shot to the stage handed me the shot I said thanks very
much I put it down didn't take it the guy starts yelling take your shot take your shot I said
no no man I'll I'll take it later I'll take it later take your shot I go look dude I don't know you I'm not taking the
shot the dude threw down his shot and took off running and I thought I just thought well what what is going on here
you know uh and I always well and I always wonder and you probably uh have some of the same
similar feeling as you don't know it if by covering any of these cases if you're
going to be targeted by anybody I mean it's interesting when you bring up that shot because that's how River Phoenix
died somebody came up behind him and handed him a shot and that was the hot fix that ended his life you know he just
and then he drank it he said what was in that and it was a massive amount of both
speed and heroin so you gotta you got to be careful in that company you know and
I think he probably felt he I don't I didn't put him in the smiley face Killer's cases but he was in a bar at
night and that ended his life so you gotta really be careful and you're lucky to be you
know in those environments you got you can't let your guard down at all right and and I think
um by you covering this and by other people bringing awareness to these cases that maybe uh men will start being a
little more wise as the women have become over the years yeah there's a couple I included in this is pot like a
Exemplar uh possible um her type perpetrators there's a guy named lamphere l-a-n-p-h-e-r you can
read about them I included in my documentary he was in Wisconsin but he would go around at night at bars and
people had seen him in one of the one of his victims saw him in a bar playing pool and he would go around at night and
look for men after the bars got out that was his that was his hunting ground and
it was interesting too because lamphere was I think on the surface he was heterosexual but he also had decided and
you know it kind of looks like the Herb Baumeister type thing where they have a surface he had a kind of a surface
normalcy but he and he would abduct them and keep them and the way he got caught
is one of his victims got out and so yeah it was I mean it's terrifying to think that that's what happens but I
think that that is an element in all smiley face killing cases because a lot of these people have disappeared
for somewhat significant amount of time Dakota James was missing for 40 days and if you watch the documentary I show
conclusively that they searched the area where he was found the day or the weekend before he was
found on a Monday morning so on Sunday night he magically kind of appeared in um in the in the river right there in
Pittsburgh so yeah so let's go back to the Joey Le Butte case for a little bit because he was missing for 19 days
I don't know if there was ever a report and I could not find it before we talked
on if they actually searched the sciota before that day but I'm assuming at some
point they probably did within those 19 days I would assume so um and the the interesting thing well
it's kind of graphic but when people pass away in water bodies decompose and typically surface um just like the
process of decomposition so often in in very temperate weather there's a graph like uh a doctor had
made but you know at the out at the very outlier in super cold it's like 20 or 25 days so
in normal weather it's somewhere within a week so why are these guys not being found
within no you know if they had drowned and I think right I tried to prove and one of the aspects of my documentary I
think I proved conclusively is that these are not drownings they've been called by the FBI drownings they've been
called by other people or you know random thing you know suspicious drownings but a lot of these people
there have been um and yeah I think there was a very lousy surveillance video of Joey the Butte
he's upright you know he's upright walking around in the short North in the union there's other people Dakota James
is walking and typing at the same time so he's not too drunk his mom said he was not a heavy drinker you know
Kelleher out of Boston upright all these guys Garcia out of Boston Boston is a hot spot but you know these are
remarkable that they can call these guys are somehow so they can walk upright and
then suddenly get incapacitated and drowned and typically very um benign non-high current Rivers like the Syota
in that area where Joey Libby was found was actually an Eddy outside of the main
current of the river so it's highly unlikely that he somehow wandered over there and just you know drowned well and
I always wondered I've never fallen into water why I was drunk but I would assume
that one would almost get a shock to their system and almost sober up a little bit to you know swim to the
surface get out of the water uh I mean you're talking about very high levels of intoxication that they would have to be
to not be able to to just pass out and then just drown I mean and and I you know I've played in bars for years
um roughly you know rarely would you ever see somebody that intoxicated uh you every now and then they would
somebody be very intoxicated passing out at the bar well at that point they have
to leave the bar and normally the bar calls them a taxi or Uber or whatever um so you would think because bars get
in big trouble for that so you'd think that these individuals being at bars if there were that intoxicated that the bar
would at least have known something or we would see that at any time on these surveillance tapes
because most of these tapes that we see of these men they are like you said they're not extremely intoxicated so
let's start with though the why why do you think these boys are going missing I believe they're targeted
off they're well there's well I can tell you what that's not happening there's no
Financial crimes associated with these guys there's nothing going on so why are they abducted I believe that and I think
I should it's okay it's okay to be graphic too well I mean you don't want to get two but I think that their target
audience because that these are homosexual type Associated crimes and these men fit in ideal healthy young
athletic not not fat and that's what they're targeted for is primarily sexual purposes
and then the who who is interested in these type of people you know I think that that's really your your if the
police want to type well they have to ascertain that these are not accidental drownings they have to see that these
are dumpings of body people who are probably pre-deceased um but uh once they determine that these are are
strategic you know strategic body dumps and water to confuse the cops then they have to go back and see who's
the perps who's the possible purposes what who are the type of people and I identify a lot of those people in my
documentary you know I use exemplars so uh all right so you say people so you it seems like
to me that these detectives early on when they were talking about that smiley face killer that it was it was one
killer well if they were they're I think they're making a mistake I believe that
this is a type of learned Mo that's been that I think arose into the public Consciousness in
these events due to the ability of travel and also the ability of communication through International I
mean so I believe in my conclusion is that this type of Mo has been talked about or discussed through fetish sites
or underground dark web stuff and these people have put it other individuals in different parts of the
country and world have put it into practice because they know they can get it's kind
of like a perfect crime and even even at the time in some of the early discussions of the cases you know when
Duarte and Gilbertson were on TV and some of the there were journalists involved in the cases there were people
who came up and said this is the perfect crime that's why they're dropped in water you know
and uh so that's what I that's why I think these cases really came to the people's awareness right at the
correlation at the time the internet uh started growing in usage in the 90s you know so I think uh I think that that's
where you'd have and it's remarkable there's some cases that do not fit the kind of mean you know
Cosmopolitan Urban cases there's a lot in New York Boston it says mostly these are Urban type cases but there was one
case out of Atlanta Georgia a guy's name was nazrahimi he was from Perth Australia and he got caught up in the
wrong crowd he was bisexual hanging out at gay bars and the smiley face killer type Mo happened to him and
uh it's just in that case it's I mean I can tell you stuff offline it blow your mind man it's amazing well
no I wanted to use that one I want you to tell me online uh the the it's just that that case
um he was found in a river uh you know some some of the investigators on the ground there Jim Smith namely said you
know there's there's a some of these guys are really tortured like literally not just held but they
are tortured and there were some reports that he looked like he got hit by a car
now's rahemians that's that's that's not conclusive that's a report but right um
for example Patrick McNiel they call him well he's one of the early Duarte again
in cases he was found south Hudson Bay at a water treatment facility and he he was a student at a college in in New
York City and they said that he was at a bar he was leaving he was puking a car was following him watching him as he
stopped the car stopped and he disappeared found dead and his parents didn't really
know much but after about I think 10 years they got an autopsy in the autopsy told the parents a completely different
story than what they had heard uh so what did they hear well they had heard that their son was just found in the
water and drowned he was a drowning kiss or something like that but right he was
drunk and they probably assumed he's drunk yeah and uh you know the mom is like you know we don't know what's going
on out there well he uh when they got the autopsy the the forensics on it showed that he had
been looked like he had been bound in a chair that he had been tortured with a blow torch on the upper part of his body
that he had like claw marks to his head like somebody hit him in the head with a
hammer and that was never disclosed that at torture aspect of his um abduction so I do believe a lot of
these other cases um these autopsies would tell an incredible story so so I just want the The Listener to be
very clear on this idea that you believe that at some point there was a killer that kind of came up with this
almost kind of like a foolproof plan I find an individual or a target an individual I either slip them drug or
they're partially drunk and then they're this is the type of individual I'm looking for
that I take this person I torture them or or rape them or whatever I do and then at some point I'm going to drop
them into water and that will help destroy a lot of the evidence and competitively so I think that's it
yeah that's the smiley face killer ammo and so then what you're saying is that there's not one smiley face killer but
the but the idea is that then through chat rooms through the dark web through other means that these killers have
almost learned from each other so there might be a smiley face killer in Chicago
or in Columbus and also you know they're so there could be you know 10 of these guys out there
working on the same MO and then the ones and then so then you so then your theory then also goes into
the idea that so if there was a killer in Columbus that maybe he went down to to Georgia and then did it down there or
went to the UK or and it's interesting the death of Joy labute happened during the Arnold
Schwarzenegger classic right so how many people came into town for that body lifting one if you talk to a lot of
detectives they will even State you know you know there's been the question of you know
can you get away with murder and I've talked to a lot of detectives about this and they always say that one of the
number way number one ways to get away with murder would to not have any connection to the victim
and and so and right and so in this Mo that's why we have you know hundreds of boys missing and and so it's interesting
because you can take your uh Theory a little bit farther if we have you know two to three hundred boys
roughly of this type age body type age that if they're getting these if they're getting kind of a map on how
to commit these crimes online you would assume that if there's five to ten guys doing this
similar that there would be five to ten guys going ah I listen I heard your advice I'm going to do it this way
you know so and that could account for the others so then well there are others there's others that have been found dead
I mean I got to do a list I think that's really important for me to write a book
because then you can see the totality of the cases and some of the outliers that
may not fit the whole water thing but that were clearly abducted and dumped but uh you know there's amazing there's
just so I mean if you watch the whole documentary there's a lot of there's a lot of people kicked out of bars you
know that so that fits in with the whole land fear guy I was talking about Chris
Jenkins out of Minnesota that's a famous case Chris Wilcox Illinois Zach Mar Boston Dakota James Pittsburgh Lance
James Bristol no Lance James was Philadelphia outside of Philadelphia Henry Burke Bristol
Anthony Arena New York city so you know there's I've got those listed out but uh
I mean I think in there's a subculture within that culture that I mean if you watch the documentary I
pretty much lay it out pretty clear what I think is happening yeah so that that brings me into a
question because I always know you know I always knew your work at through books
and you be an author so what made you want to take on doing it as a documentary forum and not as a book
there were other um books that were out there and also I think that through the visual
mean medium you can see things very clearly that something hyper suspicious is happening you know so you can see
these cases like Franco Garcia to Boston that he's walking upright that he's not
the stumbling drunk and that he they searched the um Reservoir where he's at you can
watch the search of the reservoir the cops looking in the reservoir and then he pops up some jogger sees them on the
side so the cops who were searching for him with sonar couldn't find him but some random jogger in the morning can
find him which should tell you something they didn't find him in the afternoon right so they found what happened the
night before the same thing happened with Dakota James and you know some of these other people but uh
you know I think that the visual medium is very helpful in those in that case you can see Anthony Arena had a New York
that he's stumbling drunk and there's literally a car going up a wrong way street trailing him it's amazing like I
don't even know if the cops ever got the license plate of that car or whatever but he was the arena was found down the
Hudson in Hoboken on the other side of uh the Manhattan Manhattan Island where he was last seen it's incredible okay so
you can see I think those visual aspects I do a lot of mapping there's another case I think that's really important
which is Arvin Sharma he was a strange case because he was from Nepal he was The Nepalese but he was out with uh
friends in South DC and was at a bar that also on the side of it was a gay s m bar and he was out disappeared his
brother says he must have seen something that he shouldn't have seen Arvin Sharma
get shows up in the Anacostia River Upstream from where he last was seen so that's even another suspicious cases
so when you see all these suspicious cases one after one after one I think that the conclusion is something really
just you know very sketchy is happening but also you can just see it you know you can see it on the map
do you think it's a one to one ratio as far as you know the attacker and the victim I don't know I really don't I
think that I think they're multiple like lamphere was a lone wolf but you know I think
that there might other big groups you know there might be other people helping out and then putting people at ease oh
you know it's just three of us and you you know then that's it and then a certain moment everything turns there
was one case out of uh Wisconsin the guy's name was Scott Baker I think it was one of the drowning in
forensics cases but he was he was out and got chased by a group of people and the dad sits and I
put it in my document and when the Dad wrote this this was incredible he's flat out says there are groups of people in
cars targeting towns going from town to town looking for victims every night so they would go to one town then the next
town and uh you know it fits in the mobility aspect of I think that is involved in a lot of
these cases so then with these autopsies with these victims that have been they obviously have
injuries other than drowning why do you think law enforcement is not doing a better
job of putting that out there because it seems to me and the some of the cases that we
have covered that are connected to this Theory it seems to me that the cops almost want
to dismiss and and listen and go okay well chances are he was just drunk well there's no you know the toxicology
report doesn't you know support that so what why do you think they're not uh or or do you think well I
think that I actually think that almost in all of these cases the initial opinion well the Butte was actually an
outlier I think that the police there in Columbus actually publicly stated we don't know how he entered the water but
I think a majority of these cases probably 95 to 99 the police have immediately looked at them as accidental
drownings I think that they've come upon the body oh they got drowned and they call somebody a rescue squad and take
them out they don't look them as crime scenes and I think that that changing that perception of founding a young man
in water and looking at as a potential crime scene would change how people look at these cases and I also I talked to an
ex-fbi agent his name was D'Souza and he had some very fascinating things to say
about the smiley face colors um but he said that there's a very uh significant connection to
the authorities and you know the local businesses not to uh categorize these as murders because a lot of these are
college students so a lot of these you know a lot of these uh cases happen in college towns Boston and they don't want
to raise a anything that would besmerge the reputation of the city or the colleges
so that's fascinating Dakota James was a graduate student um yeah so that I think is uh one
important aspect and I also think that you know some of yeah I mean I don't want to get too much into it's
interesting because the chief of police in Boston came out and publicly said that there's no suspicious drownings I
think they're highly I mean you can look through the Boston cases alone they're highly suspicious Keller and Hurley and
I mean one of the Kelleher case he walked out of TDI Garden he crossed over the Saint Charles River went to Paul
Revere Park called an Uber three times disappeared but his phone pinged back across the Saint Charles River South all
the way into kind of almost like I think it's the MIT area how did that happen how did that I mean that's super simple
to that point as well I mean you have Joey Butte going missing uh during one of Columbus's major weekends that they
make up a lot of money by having this Arnold Classic and then also these Boston Celtics games or these hockey
games that these gentlemen are leaving from and it's so but you you would think that these victims lives would be more
important than you know tarnishing the idea that you could go to a hockey game and something bad could happen to you if
you're not careful I would agree I would agree I mean but now what about the cases where there is
clearly you know attack marks on these victims and and different what do you make of that you just is
that just shoddy work or do you think it's just or is it a larger cover up on some level
well that's a good question um you know I think that like Tommy booth that was outside of Philadelphia
he he was found in a place that had been previously searching a very obvious Place eight days after he disappeared
and he had evidence of torture I think he had a broken tooth somebody put a cigarette out on him
um so I don't know why the police aren't disclosed I mean I think it I think it might be an aspect of police work where
they keep certain information from the public unfortunately they're not warning the public which I think
would be important you know so I think that I think it's very odd it's just a very I
mean I can see a clear pattern I've looked at these cases I've studied them and I'm not exaggerating when I say the
number 150 all over the world um so you know I I guess it's just not the police's job to warn the public that
this this could happen and like I said if they're not considering these to be crime scenes then their work is done
right away some people have actually speculated it's a lot easier for the police to take somebody off their books
by just saying accidental drowning that's not on my caseload yeah move on yeah and and some of these towns you'd
think you know maybe more so a Boston than than a Columbus but you know these major uh cities where the crime rate is
higher and there would be more K uh case load so maybe but maybe that's part of um
the teachings uh during the dark web in these chat rooms is you know to do this in bigger cities instead of smaller
towns where you know the law enforce if you know because if this happened and and in my town which is south of
Columbus um it would not they would not rest until it was solved that's interesting
yeah and that may be it that may be the urban rural Dynamic is that these are all urban areas and you know things
happen next you know move on to the next one New York you know 20 or 30 deaths that have happened there and all found
in the water is a pittance compared to the population right right you know so um yeah it's a
it's a very interesting Dynamic but I can I mean these these events are happening there was one right recently
just out of um Illinois there was enough there's another out of Manchester within the
last month you know so um have you have you ever thought of me about making this um like a podcast
Series where you could go through all the individual cases that's a good idea and then as the new ones come out you
could say well I think this fits into the into my theory or this doesn't fit into myself they all fit into the same
Mo this guy's name was Kyle Rogers outside of Chicago and disappeared gay you know found in a river you know so
and the interesting thing is my documentary actually spent about a half an hour talking about the occult nature
of the smiley face that's how really I got started was seeing the smiley face associated with Alan Moore acid music
you know some of these occultists so um there is a there is this element of these crimes that is a cult in nature
and if you're really you know very aware and just kind of watching you'll see the smiley face pop up in very
strange places you know it's like it's popped up in the new it you know they use the smiley face you know so the
symbolism of the smiley face is associated with some of these cases no doubt now but that that's a smaller
percentage in the cases you find than than what the detectives uh initially yes I've definitely found recent smiley
faces Zach Marr um was out of Boston there was a something uh this guy Wilkins out of
Bristol there was a smiley face of a Man Behind Bars which is remarkable right down the path where he was last seen
Wilkins was another case that I followed a more recent case within the last two years that you can see him walking on
surveillance video and the cops came out with the underwater scuba divers to look
for his body in a very small pond spent the time working for looking for him and
then he showed up later in that same pond so it's uh it's pretty clear yeah and then you kind of you kind of Wonder
too if these individuals are also watching the media and because if they have this individual and it would be
interesting based on autopsy they would be able to um if it was done correctly we'd be able
to see that this person was alive uh for you know 14 14 days of the 19 days they
went missing you know and and and then when where they dumped and um but and like we were kind of saying before it's
like what if this guy's watching the news and finds out well they just uh they just they just went through the CO2
River so now I'm going to uh dump Joey there that's now where I'm going to dump it terrifying thought but it's not
uncommon uh for serial killers or people to ingratiate themselves with police forces or watch the news to see what's
going on or taunt police so um yeah it's plausible well I appreciate um talking with you I I don't know if if
you have something else that you wanna tossing I can say that if you want to watch the film it's available on Vimeo
all you have to do can stream anywhere in the world vimeo.com look up smiley face or my name William Ramsey it's a
very long uh documentary I really did try to document operative work you know a lot
of these cases I include a lot of subtitles so people can read along and you can reference a lot of the
information that I put in the documentary to cases or web sleuths or things like that and check and verify
all those facts I've never had any of the facts you know uh questioned or anything people have looked through the
case but I've had a very positive response and you can look at the comments on my Vimeo page to just see
all the comments I mean we talked to you and I talked about nazarehimi one of his
family members from our friends of him from Perth Australia was able to see the documentary
and comment that this family didn't believe the story so uh you know I think that that is a very valuable thing so
people can be aware of this there since I made the documentary or was working on
making the documentary you know I found out in Perth in the harbor of Perth alone there's been 80 cases of men found
in the harbor so I haven't even gone and looked through that and I also found out
same thing happens in Amsterdam so this is really a global event and a lot of these guys they just had a recent
case out of UK Liam Colgan it's just incredible to watch these people disappear and then be found in
water Liam Colgan travels I think he was in Hamburg and I'm watching and I go man
they need to look at the river and then you know three weeks later he's found in
the river so they just had another kid Sims leave a bar and um he was in Scotland somewhere by Saint
Andrews golf course they looked all the car of course they just found his remains in the ocean so you know uh that
was another one there's another case of a guy from laughing rabbit or he was the
head of a band he was found in Scotland as well so these are cases that are just
happening over and over again same Mo even to this day and and I don't know much about the dark web but you would
think that um FBI and CIA needs to take this stuff a little more serious and then maybe you
know because there could be a hub somewhere I mean for all we know there is you know training videos you know
good point well I showed that Emma if you reached the end of the documentary I cover
a movie that was I don't want to name the name a movie that was on Netflix where they are showing water torture
young man some older dude just shoving him in the water and torturing the Daylights at him it's incredible so you
know something associated with that and I mean if you want to get into the fetish world and the people who are
involved in that Venezuela it gets really dark and uh you know these guys have taste and interest that shocked them up
you know what they're up to well I mean I don't know if you followed the Bruce MacArthur case yes absolutely
which is very similar so there's a lot of similarities the only difference was he wasn't dumping uh he was not taking
his victims and put him in water he was he was putting them in flower beds right
well said do you know how they busted him and what happened around his arrest yeah well we covered the case but but
they had a ball he had somebody tied down in a bed he had somebody abducted restrained and in a bed I think it was a
young man so um he had a potential next victim in his in his place so well he and if
you get a chance his Vic uh he had another victim That Got Away right I remember that no he was interviewed
right yeah yeah and that's just uh that that was some dark stuff and then you just wandered to you know is it just
are they just getting the information from reading it uh online or is it you know even some something darker like you
said where there's somebody teaching their ways well it I mean you know there's some really dark stuff
in the BDSM found you know fat life stuff but you know some of these guys they take on this and you can read some
of these cases but they become there's a dominant and a submission and some of these guys have strange names
and roles where they're supposedly like teacher tortures it's crazy so I mean it's it's potential that these guys oh
my when I was researching these cases I I knew that you know I come to the conclusion it was something going on
like that this kind of bondage well here I mean here in La there are there are 10
bondage places that you can rent that you as a public can pay money for a couple hours and it's how much do they
cost I didn't find out no but yes but no I mean I was like hey man this is like 20 blocks away from me they're not far
and you I mean I would assume that in a lot of these cities there are places like that they're literal
yeah it's bad dude I mean there was one case that you covered on uh True Crime garage it was a guy who his his choice
of victim were females right but he was an older dude 57 who literally had like a freaking dungeon on his property right
uh I think that was Worley um and he was abducting women one girl was out on a jog or on a ride or bike
ride or something like that and that was one that got away but you know who knows
how many people he was I think that when they catch somebody associated with these murders they're going to find that
the number is Big you know they're gonna find somebody who's a repeat like a Herb
Baumeister so I would definitely warn the audience there are definitely yeah that Grace was crazy yeah crazy her
by Meister was crazy well the yeah the warley up in um Northern Ohio was crazy too because I
used to play up there and so I I was taking a trip about a couple weeks ago and then I just Googled to like while I
was in the area like I'll just Google where that was at well it was basically on the on the way to where I'd I'd
normally go anyways uh and I probably took that road you know 20 30 times and you just go here's this guy that has
this layer and his barn and nobody knew about it you know uh it's I mean there's a lot if you look at
some of these cases of like abductions there's a lot there's there these stories of Dungeons and stuff people's
personal dungeons are they're out there you know these people like the and so there then we Prime but
it's weird though like they're looking for victims and one of the great things about this
documentary is you can buy it or you can rent it so I think that's a great option
yeah I think it's fair five dollars for a week or 12 bucks you can buy it I am halfway through I'm very entertained can
you explain to everybody where they can find you and and the rest of your work because it's not the the first time that
you uh have done tons of research and and brought great content to the world well I appreciate it my website is
William Ramsey investigates if you want signed copies or you want to buy a DVD you go to William Ramsey
investigates.com I'm on Twitter Facebook um I have a couple YouTube I have a YouTube channel William Ramsey
investigates where I will post this interview but uh I also have a show that goes out on spreaker so I'm on iTunes
and everything like that I put out an hour per week if you're interested in that you can go check that out too it's
very cool stuff I'm I'm glad to say that I know you and that uh and now and hopefully we get to talk about the West
Memphis glad to know you and I appreciate you reaching out and thank you very much for
the interview [Music] [Applause]

Off The Record /// William Ramsey

Captain talks to William Ramsey about the Smiley Face Killer. Cheers Mates

Brief Summary

William Ramsey discusses the smiley face killer theory and its implications for young men found dead in water.

Key points

The Smiley Face Killer Theory. William Ramsey discusses the controversial theory surrounding young men found dead in water.
Conversation with William Ramsey. The captain speaks with author William Ramsey about the smiley face killer theory.
The Profile of Victims. The discussion reveals that most victims are young, fit men, often found in water.
Drugging and Targeting Victims. Ramsey reveals the alarming trend of young men being drugged and targeted in bars.
The Role of Dating Apps. The conversation highlights how dating apps may be used to target victims.
Targeted Victims. The discussion reveals that the missing men are believed to be targeted for sexual purposes.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

These cases are happening all over the world.

7:48WatchSep 15, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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