Kiss and Kill Murder | Morbid | Forensic Files

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you get your podcasts hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is morbid it is
thank you [Music] [Music] did you hear my whistle with my S that just happened no I didn't I literally it
was like very slight but but that did just get a little yeah that felt embarrassing for some
reason it wasn't it wasn't worry about it I didn't even hear it okay I didn't even hear it okay I didn't guys we're at
our home away from home we are we're not gonna say where that is but no we're not
but but we are finally getting some time with our fam exactly we're spending time
with family yeah we're just chilling out you know relax and all cool chilling out
relaxing chilling out Max and relaxing all cool there we go shooting some people outside of the school when a
couple of guys you know we're gonna get together that's what we're doing um yeah and we had our live show our
virtual live show last night yeah thank you guys so much to everybody who like logged on and watched so like logged on
what the [ __ ] is that what a [ __ ] Century what a cool [ __ ] location that was that was the coolest location I
want to film literally every live show from there I want to live there you should I belong there we got to get
ready in this like old tiny bedroom where like all the furniture is like exactly as it was and like I think it
was that place was built in like 1910 yeah it was it was so cool yeah it was awesome and you guys Rule and we're glad
that you were there in spirit yeah it was awesome them I also want to dress like I did every single day of my life I
also told Ash when we left I was like you should just come to work like that every day like you were literally made
for that I was you were I really was I believe that I feel that very strongly not super comfortable no tool yeah I
mean it didn't look super comfortable but it was great the I was wearing two robes technically not technically I was
technically technically um I had like a silky one underneath that one was like super comfy but yeah
but the tool was like a lot the tool of it all so always scratchy and I have very sensitive skin so I was itchy that
was the Itchy and then we both got Crooks in our neck yeah because the cricks or Crooks Creeks because I don't
have like Crooks in my neck no I don't have like criminals in my next one I don't have thieves in my next neighbor
but I have cricks yeah because we both were looking at each other for so long when we were telling the stories and it
was so cold in there that I think like it [ __ ] with my neck like a lot me too wicked bad I was sleeping last night and
I was pissed off because no matter which way I moved I couldn't get my crick out
my neck me too it still hurts tonight luckily mine really doesn't mine still hurts I feel like I'm whispering a
little bit because it's really late right now it is really late we're just like sequestered in the corner somewhere
that we set up like a makeshift so Bleak it is we got sequestered into a corner somewhere set up like a temporary you
know recording studio we're in a little cubicle yeah we're in a little cubicle and it feels right I love it
um Well I this is like pretty long for for me for me for me um so we should get into it I didn't
kind of just really not kind of I wanted to sleep I just remember no but seriously I did want to put a little bit
of a trigger warning at the top of this episode because this case has very very heavy themes and a lot of mention of
suicide so if that's not something that you're in the headspace to listen to right now we completely understand and
respect that um you can sit this one out and we'll see you next episode which will be
listener Tales I think which is always a [ __ ] good time yeah yeah it will be so this is a Wednesday episode yeah so
so know that that it'll be it'll be okay and for those staying today we are covering the murder of Betty Williams I
loved that murder it is a murder like it is but it's complicated all right okay and also it's like a bit of an old-timey
case because it did happen during the 60s but it's one of those older cases that weirdly feels like it could have
happened yesterday like yes it's got those vibes and the reaction from the public in this case though uh that's
definitely dated that's very old-timey yeah that's very old-timey because along with again the heavy themes of suicide
there was also heavy themes of uh [ __ ] shaming and victim blaming cool all at the expense of Betty Williams
sounds fun yeah we love it so it all starts when Betty's boyfriend Mac Herring breaks up with her and he broke
up with her during their senior year of high school that's shitty really really sad her entire world obviously felt like
it was collapsing in on her and she had already been struggling with depression and anxiety for a good while at this
point and at the center of all of her problems was the fact that she was really living
in a time that in a lot of ways just was not meant for her oh that's sad I feel like Betty was very ahead of her time in
a way and I don't really know how to explain that but I do feel like you'll also get that sense listening the vibe
is just there yeah yeah it definitely she was Progressive she was outspoken and she was really in tune with her
sexuality but she had all of those qualities as a teenager living in the 60s yeah so like you were not as a woman
or a girl supposed to be sexual at all outspoken at all or Progressive in any way shape or form because we're coming
off the heels of the 50s yes honey so no one around her really knew what the hell
to make of her and they really only paid any attention to her when they were talking [ __ ] about her or making her
feel like an outcast wow yeah so things got to the point where Betty felt like death was the only way to free herself
from kind of a losing battle that she felt like she'd been fighting oh that kills me it's this is a very very sad
case very sadly it put me in a weird headspace for a few days oh great yeah just so you know but it's also like it's
such an interesting story and it's like I think it's so important to be told yeah so she was by all means determined
to put an end to her life like very determined to do that but she was afraid to do it alone she didn't want to leave
this realm and enter the next by herself oh my God she described it quo as not having the fortitude necessary to go
through with it so instead of facing the end of her life alone she begged for one
last thing from the guy who had just broken her heart she wanted him to pull the trigger for her wow yeah
the shooting of Betty Williams by Matt Herring which is sometimes referred to as the kiss and kill murder it's really
been largely forgotten by a lot of people who live outside of the West Texas city of Odessa where the killing
took place but the case really does remain among one of the most complicated cases of the 20th century and still a
lot of people have questions and the most discussed question is when is a death a killing and a killing a murder
huh okay it's convoluted this one I told it's gonna be a lot and that's the thing
I'm like this was a murder but like I don't know how to really say label this yeah how to label it exactly
but let's start at the beginning Elizabeth Jean Betty Williams she was born on August 11 1943 in Marion
Illinois to John and Mary Williams her early life was pretty good her dad was a carpenter and when there wasn't
any Contracting work for him to do he was also able to get work in the coal industry now the coal industry went from
being a constant for John to fall back on to completely unreliable work very quickly
then he injured his back in 1954 and neither job was something that he could physically do anymore oh man yeah so
while he was talking to his brother about what he could do to support his family the brother suggested that he
move out to Texas which had a booming oil industry at the time so surely John could find some kind of
job in the oil industry and get his family back up on their feet in no time surely or maybe not
in Illinois this family they were a family of five and they lived in a really large house that John had
actually built himself they had all the space that they could ever need but in Odessa the house that they had moved
into which was on Henderson Street it was definitely more modest it was only about 10 to 20 years old at that point
but it felt quote old and well worn to the family oh wow they were also constantly having to pick up trash from
the front lawn because the house was across from a factory and the trash at the factory was just constantly blowing
into their yard or getting stuck on their fence ew so like you're already down on your luck yeah you've already
crammed a family of five into a much smaller house than you were used to and now you're picking up trash from your
front lawn and fence every day because trash is literally just wafting over to your house like you're that's rough
you're not feeling great about that yeah and just to put the cherry on top of things the job that John was hoping for
never really materialized no he could still keep the family afloat on the money that he had made as a carpenter
and like he kept picking up side jobs and everything but Mary ended up having to get a job at JCPenney to help even
more sadly the move was just not everything they had hoped it would be so according
to Betty's cousin Shelton Williams which I think is the cutest [ __ ] name on the planet
her Father John's employment's problem employment problems might have had something to do with his attitude he
came off to many as a self-righteous man and he came off very arrogant oh Shelton
actually later wrote a book about this case it's his cousin's murder it's called washed in Blood and he wrote
about John saying that he quote seemed to always either to be preaching in a holier than thou way or he seemed to be
bragging wow those are not great things to hear about yourself no definitely not
and then the other thing on top of that was that things were just never John's fault we all know people like that never
ever also I am really smearing and tarnishing my name John lately you are dragging the name John through the month
I think I've had three cases in a row one of them was the live show where the Johns have been bad yeah where you've
just been like and John came and I was like I love it John and you were like not this one and it's like damn right
yeah sorry wow well this John sucks and things were never his fault and most of the time that he spent out of work he
actually ended up blaming on his children cool yeah you should do that like it's their fault really he was a
very religious man he was uh described as a strict Baptist and he wanted to make sure that his children followed the
same faith and he told them whenever the family was going through some kind of hardship or he was out of work that it
was their fault and that they had done something quote to bring God's punishment down on our household
wow what an [ __ ] like maybe it's your fault because like I didn't ask to be here Dad yeah you're a straight up
[ __ ] like you brought me into this yeah you blame your kids for your [ __ ] like you're an [ __ ] and then
you just say like it's their fault and God's mad at them like go [ __ ] yourself
shut the [ __ ] up John exactly so as Betty got older and she became a teenager she became the main focus of
her father's outburst and just pure disdain pure disdain oh I hate this man me too he quote often preached to Betty
about Sin and eternal damnation and on more than one Sunday morning he prayed that she might learn to be a more
obedient daughter ew like in front of her ew yeah oh God I hate this man me too now somebody else especially again in
that time period would have tried everything they could have to make their father happy or avoid his anger but
Betty let it feed her by the time she turned 14 or 15 she realized that her dad God's belief system all of his rules
and morals were going to be everything she stood against that's amazing which I think is [ __ ] awesome for her so when
she was entering high school she was immersing herself in everything she could to expand her world she was
reading books by John Kerouac an author who many people probably know but if you
didn't he basically led a movement in the 50s that was later called The Beat Generation I was gonna say the beat
poets yes exactly now the people that made up this generation were people like Betty who rejected conventional Society
this is a quote and favored Zen Buddhism modern Jazz and free sexuality baby I love it now Betty loved all of the beat
poets and she also loved the comedian Lenny Bruce whose comedy style was mostly satirical it featured jokes about
politics religion sex things that she had no business listening to back then no and she also wore what was in
considered as too much makeup and she did basically everything she could to reject conforming to the world around
her I love that for her I do too if you look up a picture of her I think she's the
cutest oh she's adorable right but she didn't dress like you were supposed to back then we'll get into it to some
people she probably sounds like a typical teenager just kind of going against the grain to establish her
independence and I definitely agree that there is a piece of teenage innocence and like resistance here yeah she did
have something to prove but at the same time like I've already said she was really just more Progressive than most
people around her according to Pamela Koloff quote Betty disdained Conformity and reserved
particular contempt for the girls with matching sweater sets and saddle shoes who seem to look right through her oh my
God I love Betty I do too she wanted to be unique and she expressed that through
her appearance sometimes she would dress in all black sometimes she would just wear jeans and a t-shirt which was like
[ __ ] wild yeah back then and other times she would wear a very revealing clothing which like she probably like
showed her shoulder or something I was gonna say her ankle yeah but more than just dressing differently and reading
those kinds of books she also spoke freely about her ideas and opinions oh I mean
clutch the person what does she think she is you know and that definitely had more than a few people clutching their
pearls back absolutely she would talk to her teachers and other adults around her
and try to get them to see where she was coming from when it came to topics that
they simply were not talking about back then she wanted a lively debate but she did she wanted to talk about racial
segregation she wanted to talk about sexism she wanted to talk about equality like she wanted to get your [ __ ] mind
now hell yeah she did [Music] a few days before Christmas Janelle Matthews disappeared from her home
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now her cousin Shelton Williams remembers the urgency and passion with which she would talk about any kind of
social issue she loved getting engaged in like a heated debate and she would tell her cousin there are too many
secrets in the country you can't just tell people that racism war and poverty are wrong you have to make them feel it
where is Betty now serious like we need Betty and that's the sad thing because I
think she I mean she did leave a mark on the world obviously but I think had she
been able to live into like adulthood it sounds like she would have done she would have moved the needle and it's so
sad because she just didn't have people around her that made her feel heard made
her feel respected made her feel like she was worth being alive like and that's awful it's so sad now to Betty
the most effective ways of making people understand her quote unquote Progressive
ideas was to address the issues through drama comedy and art just like her Idols
the beat poets Cadillac Lenny Bruce but unfortunately where she lived in Odessa Progressive politics and edgy
artistic influences only made her more of a social outcast wow so outside of school and outside of her part-time job
at the local Woolworths she dreamed of a glamorous life which you know like that's like a center theme in all of us
she wanted to get far away from Odessa she loved films and she absolutely devoured the Hollywood tabloid magazines
I want her I I know how this is going to end very tragically I know yeah it does
but I just I'm like I want you to get out I do too like I know it's gonna end badly but I just want to be like rewind
she was just so young and promising yeah so promising and I just love that like she would like read the beat poets and
she would engage in all these like topics that she that she wanted to spread the word about and like really
get into but then at the same time she's your typical teenager like flicking through a People magazine yeah you know
but obviously not people back then but you know she would also hang all kinds of photos on her bedroom wall from
magazines like confidential and next to those she would hang movie posters and playbills like she was just [ __ ] cool
yeah and like the stars and the tabloids she really dreamed of becoming a famous
actress one day and in the meantime she joined the drama club at school so she could like kind of get that going and
her cousin remembered quote she loved to be on the stage where she could be anyone but herself
so in many ways that's why I used to love drama yeah because I had like not a great experience in school yeah that's
exactly why I love drama club because you could be a character you can be whoever you want to be and it's
literally just like disassociated yeah that hurts my heart I get that I love you I love you oh no like seriously that
really hurt my heart but again in many ways she was a typical teenager she lived in emotional extremes
she felt like nobody understood her and she longed for something greater than what she saw around yeah I can I could
have related yeah we were all we were all there yeah but she was also an outsider in her community and everybody
from her own [ __ ] dad to her classmates and even some of her teachers reminded of her reminded her of that on
the regular that's so [ __ ] up that no one around her valued her and then on top of everything else if
anything about Betty made her a not so great fit for where she lived or just about anywhere else in the late uh 1950s
it was her unashamed interest in sex ah yeah it you know didn't it rocked some socks didn't make her a lot of friends
no according to her cousin she was so bright and natural disgusting sex it almost seemed to be okay to do so which
it almost seemed like it was all right and healthy weird it almost seemed like we could communicate with two groom
people honestly so some nights after her siblings and her parents went to bed she
would sneak out of the house and she would go down to Tommy's Drive-In to flirt and talk with boys get out of town
and unlike the chaste good girls in Odessa she was assertive when it came to her interest and her desire to have sex
yeah and by the time she was a junior in high school she was meeting up with guys
regularly she would meet them at the drive-in or she would just hook up casually with them I don't even get it
whatever it was this though this really set her outside way more than her outfits her attitude her Progressive
ideals this made her an outcast awesome we learned nothing from The Scarlet Letter literally nothing her former
classmate Gene Smith uh kieker put it if a girl had a steady boyfriend then she could have sex as long as she didn't
advertise it but if she did it with someone who wasn't her boyfriend then she was a pariah
oh Betty was a pariah so wild because that's all based in like religious ideals of course it is and it's like not
everyone's religious oh my God why does that it's so weird that that tracks against like such a large demographic of
people like it's so strange to me to me that's like a a very weird way of thinking it is I mean I agree with that
you should judge someone about that when it has literally no effect on you well think about people that hate on like the
lgbtq community that's exactly what I was just it's like it's literally just you giving a [ __ ] about who I have
intercourse with literally all it is like it's like why why does that matter to you look it's and you'll sit there
and you'll bang your head against the wall about it and ask it's the question I ask constantly I'm like why does it
matter to you it doesn't affect you right like why like if I'm cool with like going to hell then why do you care
exactly like Let Me Burn [ __ ] what's the problem problems are you worried I'm gonna run
into you down there because like if you're so sure you're going up there then why the [ __ ] do you care that I'm
going down here it's so true like it's so weird to me I could go on for like hours about it no it just it infuriates
me because honestly I don't give a [ __ ] what anybody does no I don't give a [ __ ]
as long as it's legal yeah like legal in the sense that like as long as it's like
you're not hurting adults right and as long as it's like that's it as long as it's a consenting adult that's literally
all I care no it's so true I was like lucky like to to come from this family and like Drew was so lucky to come from
his family but we've made friends over the years like in the lgbtq community and you're like what like you hear the
experience and even people that you're not friends with that you know what their experience was coming out to their
family and you get disowned you get thrown on the [ __ ] streets and it all comes down to who you're bumping ugly
that's if it's like you're disowning your child because of who they care about yeah yeah
what like wild what planet and also this psycho the psychological [ __ ] aptitude
of that he's a dude off the Richter Scale because it's like you shouldn't give a [ __ ] as long as the person your
child cares about is a good person it's kind respects them and treats them correctly and makes them happy literally
that's all you care beyond that then there is some deep-seated issues happening say it louder for the people
in the background that's crazy it makes me crazy it's like the the whole like you know if you go near my you know my
son is not allowed to date any like hoes out there you know like you see all those I get those those tick tocks and
you're like you can't [ __ ] your son you know that right like that is against the
law but then you see on the other side with the guys being like I'll have a shotgun if some guy comes to why you
can't [ __ ] your daughter like it's just what are you doing like why did you have you have to
do this it's so weird it's very very bizarre I hope my children I hope my daughters come home with wonderful
humans yeah whoever they are and also I want to get to know that person I want to love that person to me I'm like cool
I can't wait to have like more humans that I love in my family I'm like I'm excited that's just more kids my future
mother-in-law the other day I literally almost cried because I know she considers like me and my like sister and
brother-in-law like her kids she literally says that she has six kids I love that and like I like I feel like
she's setting an example for me as like how I want to be like when my kids get married exactly like I can't imagine
having a different experience no like my mother-in-law has been giving me like every card that she gives me always says
to my son and quote unquote daughter like oh because it's like my daughter-in-law card but it's like she
always finds the one that say quote unquote daughter and then she writes in it thank you for making my son so happy
like that's um that's that's your mom you want to bring that's not a mother-in-law that's a mom yeah
literally it's just I know that was like an off tangent like you know whatever but like that kind of stuff [ __ ] the
[ __ ] out of him no it's just weird but again live your life because it doesn't
affect me but Live and Let Live exactly but that's not what happened to Betty nobody was letting her live at all that
makes me sad me too Justice for Buddy honestly for all her non-conformity and dreams of getting out of Odessa what she
really wanted the most the absolute most was to be loved and accepted the bear [ __ ] minimum yeah that's what
everybody should be able to have like at home starting out there starting at home
but she didn't even get that but finally in her junior year she felt like she had
finally found that acceptance and that love that she craved in a sophomore named John Mack Herring he went by Mac
Aron was a year younger than Betty but he was everything that she was not he was tall he was handsome he was well
liked he was popular and he had absolutely no trouble fitting in with his family and Pierce and this is
another John oh my God [ __ ] I didn't even think of that [ __ ] I don't know how to feel about
this John to be honest with you all right we'll leave it hanging in The Ether I'm not really sure how I feel
it's it's just it's Gonna Leave You feeling so conflicted but anyway he by all accounts was a very
typical Texas boy he played football um he hunted he fished he went to church and he did well in school but he was
also kind he was thoughtful and he liked to be alone like he liked his alone right yeah and his sensitive side was
what appealed to Betty because she's a [ __ ] artist hell yeah and she quote sensed in him a kindred spirit and she
thought there was something lonely and romantic about him oh like yeah he's beautiful love yeah now they started out
with uh they started out as friends but by the summer after Betty's junior year they started dating and Betty fell in
love and she fell hard and she fell fast she told her friends all the time how Mac just seemed to get her he really
listened when she spoke he wanted to hear what she had to say but Mac on the other hand didn't really
talk a lot to his friends or really anybody else about his relationship with Betty come on he was very very aware and
very self-conscious that his relationship with her could affect his social status come on as her cousin
Shelton put it Betty never wore his football jacket never went to the Scott theater with him on a Saturday night and
never met his parents come on but she was like his steady girlfriend but it's like you're hiding
her away exactly you're treating her like everyone else in her life yeah what the [ __ ] so she got pissed yeah she
really liked Mac but the fact that he just had he lacked outward excitement and it started to piss her off so in
response to his distant and discreet [ __ ] annoying ass Behavior she tried to make him jealous one night because
that's what teenagers do if I had a [ __ ] dime for every boy that I tried to make jealous and it didn't work I
would have a [ __ ] a home full of Dimes so she tried to do that and she parked with one of his good friends oh yes and
he was another football player who was more popular and had actually been voted the most handsome in his class Stanton
also is apparently an [ __ ] because he's doing that to his friend I mean like what the [ __ ] most handsome classes
also superlatives are the weirdest [ __ ] thing ever so weird can we end them now yeah
talk about setting up some just [ __ ] up issues going right out into they've used high school with all these shitty
judgments and issues all over you and like it's it's really leading you up to like Plateau there that's my favorite
it's most likely to succeed because it's like all you other idiots [ __ ] all y'all
like only these two are gonna succeed I was nowhere near like most likely to succeed and I would like to say [ __ ] all
y'all cause I am succeeding okay I am success I am succession I also watch it on TV oh that's coming back in like a
month and I am stoked I am still on season two I'm ready for more shiv ah I love shiv I
don't know if I should say that but I do I normally on season two I love shiv I don't care what she does I love her I
don't care all right anyway this is the one forever if we keep sidetracking I don't know where we are right now so
high school parking with other boys trying to make your boyfriend jealous whatever whether she was trying to make
Mac jealous or get his attention or just get some kind of reaction from him is unknown whatever her intentions the
stunt backfired and by the start of the school year Mac had ended things with Betty oh which I understand I I can't
say I blame him and he started dating another girl and this is what sucks he was much more out there with his
relationship with this new girl that sucks everyone knew he was dating her and in a weird way and certainly to
Betty he seemed to be more proud of dating this girl oh that that makes me sad it's awful and the breakup
devastated Betty she finally had felt that real connection to somebody and it was ripped away from her right after it
had started whether she was partially at fault or not yeah it was like stupid teenage [ __ ] exactly it's so impulsive
yeah and like I am one of the most impulsive people so I can relate heavily to that but she told a friend oh my God
this hurts my heart I've never been so humiliated and Torn to Pieces I feel so lonely and deserted I don't care what
happens now or ever oh and it only got worse and you just want to be like it gets better it will get
better get out of this town and out of this High School it will get better she would have she would she would have yeah
so the end of her relationship with Max set the new school year off on a terrible note but that was only the
beginning of a slew of disappointments during the school year before this one Betty had really fostered her love of
the theater the theater by performing the lead in a lot of the school plays like multiple get it but this year there
was a new Drama teacher at the school her name was Enid Woodward and she didn't seem to see much talent or
ability in Betty and instead of giving her the lead in the school's production of winter set she gave I was like we're
falling off there she gave Betty the role of stage manager Enid didn't even get a act like an
actual role she made her stage manager painted I'm unimpressed me too and this is the thing for years theater was the
thing that fueled Betty's dreams of getting the [ __ ] out of Odessa and her fantasy of making a name for herself on
Broadway that was her dream it probably seemed like small potatoes to the adults
around her but Betty not getting any kind of part in the school play that would be devastating that's devastating
and then you add that on top of her breakup with Mac things were just making her feel like the world was crumbling
around her she was hopeless and she was feeling desperate so that fall in a letter to Mac she wrote well I guess you
accomplished what you set out to do you hurt me more than you'll ever know I've done a lot of things I know that were
bad and cheap but I swear before God that I didn't mean them to be like that I was just showing off I know it's much
too late with you Mac but I swear that another boy won't get the chance to say what you've said to me you've made me
realize that instead of being smart and sophisticated like I thought I was only being cheap and ugly and [ __ ] forgive
me for writing this last note and thank you for reading it I'll not trouble you again and Mac I haven't forgotten all
the good times we had when you think of me try to think of the good times we had
and not of this oh so that is not devastating so sad now if losing Mac and her dreams of
stardom weren't enough for Betty things escalated at home when her dad started snooping around her room while she was
gone oh no and one day he found her diary tucked away in a dresser drawer and Betty had detailed her experiences
with boys in this diary yeah so to John Williams the discovery that his daughter
was sexually active and not married was just outraged and further proof to him that she was turning away from God and
couldn't be trusted so now this only added to tensions at home so Betty has literally no nowhere
to go space yeah she doesn't have the stage at school she doesn't have the theater she doesn't have a boyfriend she
can go hang out with and now she is not happy at home and probably getting like prayed at oh pray that literally
literally so as fall turned into winter and Betty's losses piled up her mood just got darker and darker
just Sullen really and in that letter what really struck me was that she said instead of being and she named all these
positive things like I thought I was you've shown me that none of them is true and it's like oh no no no like that
like hold on to that that is what you are you are all those and it's like don't let anybody make you feel like you
are not those things but like we all know oh my God especially even now that it that can be hard yeah you know when
even when you know who you are I'm 37 I'm 37 right yeah I'm sorry seven years old like I know who I am like of course
I am who I am no I'm fine with it I like me I'm Popeye the Sailor Man but it's like you can see like a really nasty
comment yeah you you know where you are you can see a really nasty comment and it can make you second-guess yourself
because it's just you shouldn't see that [ __ ] no you know what I mean and you shouldn't be told that kind of stuff
what people think of you is is none of your business and that's the thing and it's like and especially when you're a
teenager it means so much more because because you're you're not there yet you're not in a place most of the time
like if you're one of the lucky ones that as a teenager was just completely awesome comfortable with who you were I
think about that nine times out of ten you're not there yet no it's like you are fragile you are in the building
phase and it's almost like a baby's head in the beginning how it's fusing together and it has a soft spot and if
anything can [ __ ] that up just while it's building itself to be your strong ass head that's exactly what it is she
is that soft spot well and I would have gotten to a really strong [ __ ] skull if she was able to Great point because
also her frontal lobe is still developing her decision making skills are not quite there yet exactly not
quite there it's just really sad and that's my excuse for everything I did in high school and after it makes me sad it
does so she was just really pulling back from everything and she told your cousin
Shelton she wanted to die if she couldn't be with Mac I think it was a lot that I don't think I know it was a
lot more than just not being with Mac but I think I it's weird I think like when you're
going through like so much you just crave a person and that's exactly what I think
it was like you said I don't think it was just not being with Mac I think it was with all of this happening I need
Mac yeah like that's the thing I need yup and if I can't have my God then like do you remember when everything was I
had like a very tumultuous time in high school where I was literally moving into
my grandparents house because things had gotten so bad and I was not really dating this guy but like we were we were
like about to date and then I invited him to your wedding because he was gonna be my plus one and then he said no I
felt like the [ __ ] world was crumbling beneath my feet because of that one incident like that was what set
it all off oh yeah but it was really that like no the world was actually just crumbling around me in many different
ways but when you're a teenager you put it on that because you like you need a person to get through everything exactly
you know but you don't you're an independent woman who don't need no man you've got this you do but when you're
16 you don't feel that way no way so she was was desperate to get Mac back but he
had already moved on with that other girl he felt bad but he didn't want to be back together with Betty So
eventually she started expressing Suicidal Thoughts to friends at school and in the drama Department very
regularly one friend remembered Betty said the situation at home was bad I wanted to help but I didn't know what to
do I was 16 years old exactly and like I remember my friends being in shitty situations and being like Oh my God like
you have to move in with us but like I could like yeah that wasn't gonna happen yeah like it's not my house I don't know
what to say nothing I can do so unfortunately Betty had spent years reveling in the reactions that she
received from her provocative Behavior her unfavorable opinions so to those around her these cries for help just
sounded like buddy looking for attention that's what they thought so it's like a
boy who cried wolf situation kind of yeah exactly they thought she was just trying to stir up some kind of drama but
there were countless times that Betty told her peers working on that play that she wanted to kill herself yeah and it's
like you you can never let that slip no you can't let that go away like you can't just be like well she's probably
just looking for it like don't do it no overall overreact always you will always
feel better if you overreact versus Under react exactly and she was constantly telling people this and
saying that she just didn't have the nerf oh see yeah so you got to tell someone like she was very like she's
being very clear about it and she's right up to her breaking point on at least five separate occasions Betty
asked another student if they would be willing to help her do this and no one told anyone worse they all laughed it
off they thought it was a joke that's a lot of [ __ ] up people like I'm sorry yeah I don't understand that I
don't get it at all like I don't get that if one of if one of my friends in high school
came said to me like I want to kill myself I'd be saying something right away anyway yeah but if they added on to
it would you help me do it I that's I mean come on I I don't know I don't either that's
[ __ ] up I think it was a combination of the time period oh yeah age of the people she was telling where they lived
and the fact that she had been quote unquote dramatic in the past it's like it's so wild to me though that the even
those oh it's wild to me there's can factor into just like what is right and what is wrong yeah you know yeah but
it's like what you thought it is right and what you think is wrong you know yeah you're absolutely right
what I think is right and what I think you are wrong like we I think we are right yeah but
it's I know it's so it's so hard you could be a completely different person and have a completely different view of
this which is which is crazy to me it's just like how there's different for you pages on Tick Tock that blows that's
true like not everyone's for you page is like mine yeah like what yeah like you don't just constantly get parenting
things no I do ours are very like they are but sometimes you like you get those stitches from like another side of tick
tock and you're like that exists oh yes sometimes you get real scared and you're
like am I on and then all of a sudden the Stitch comes through and you're like really cool you're like what did I talk
about last time the [ __ ] did I just get into yeah also sorry that we're going off on like side pieces here I'm sure it
kind of feels a little bit weird but I think it's also just us trying to get through this 100 this is like very heavy
it's very heavy a little stressful it is so back to it one night Mack agreed to give Betty and another friend a ride
home from school and Betty actually ended up posing the question to Mac would he be willing to kill her she
asked him wow she said and this is this is a lot so if you'd like to skip forward I understand
she said she would be the one to hold the gun to her head and all he would have to do is pull the trigger because
she couldn't oh my God now he assumed that she was just being melodramatic and he laughed at the suggestion which made
Betty and her friend laugh as well I think at that point she was like oh like no Julie kidding you know yeah but she
wasn't gonna give up that easily that night she wrote out and signed a document that she planned to give Mac so
that he could be absolved of any responsibility in the event that he was arrested for her murder oh my God just
the the sheer amount of time that she thought about this is like so sad months and months but she was just sitting
there thinking about killing herself like that I'm I know that probably sounds ignorant because I'm sure that is
like a lot of people's experiences but it is a lot of people yeah it's just like but it's just like whoa like that
just like thinking about that just like gave me a pit in myself it's really heavy yeah I think it's also it's as a
lot about where she was that no adult realized like no one came to hurry no one was
listening to these conversations nobody overheard this like yeah like what the [ __ ] all the adults just failed here
they did everybody failed yeah they truly did everybody did now the next day during uh play practice Betty actually
pulled Mac into the prop closet and she again asked him will you please help me she told him about everything that was
going on at home how lonely she had been since they broke up and how she just had
no hope for the future and she believed that death was the only way to avoid a life of misery wow I I have to believe
that she thought she was going somewhere else yeah I don't think she thought it was it was everything just went black
like I think she thought she was escaping to a more beautiful place yeah and I hope she did I hope so too now
maybe he still thought Betty was joking I don't know or maybe he felt guilty for
contributing to her misery I will never know but whatever was the case Mack agreed to
kill Betty Williams ah okay nuts okay nuts so on the evening of March 22nd Betty waited until her
parents had gone to bed and then she snuck out of the house and down the street where she actually met up with
her new boyfriend Ike nail oh he was waiting for her in his car the two of them sat in his car parked around the
corner from buddy's house for a while until Mac finally arrived to meet them and when Mac pulled up to Betty or
excuse me one Mac pulled up Betty said to Ike oh my God I didn't think he'd come
oh man and she told Ike what she and Mac had been planning to do that evening but
even when Max car pulled up Ike remained convinced that she was only joking guys if she is not like a stand-up
comedian no like what is this like oh she must be joking like is she just constantly joking also where's the joke
that's the thing like tell me what the punch line is like where's the funny part like I'm failing to see this these
people are shocking shocking like really shocking it's because they're teenagers
oh so she opened the door and she stepped out of the car and she turned to Ike and said I gotta call this Bluff
even if he kills me whoa like as she was I think she was joking around it because I think she was
probably nervous but she was oh my gosh she was ready in her own way oh that hurts my heart so she got in the car
with mac and Mac drove out to his family's hunting cabin in the woods Betty was dressed in pajamas in a duster
coat and she told Mac that she'd been thinking about this for a while and that she had even tried previously to do this
herself she tried to take sleeping pills but it only made her sick she continued her line of thinking
talking about how she was going to be sorry to leave Ike so soon after they started dating she allegedly told Mac
how happy she was going to be dead oh my God like a direct quote it's like did you try to convince her otherwise we
have to hope so but I I don't know if Mac had the capacity to do that that's so sad you know like I I don't know him
but from what I do know of him I just picture him sitting there like quietly and just like I'm just enjoying or maybe
even disassociating yeah you know [Music] so they arrived at the hunting cabin they sat in the car and they talked for
another 15 or 20 minutes but then at the same time I actually I guess I don't picture him just sitting there quietly
because I don't think Betty would have found him to be like attractive if you just sat there quietly and like not not
giving her anything yeah like she she wanted to have profound conversations absolutely
so they talked a little bit and then mocked her of the Jeep down by the pond and
parked on the shore when they re when they reached the pond they both got out of the car and they started walking
toward the shore sure but Betty had left her duster in the Jeep and it was really
cold by the water so she actually went back to the car to get her coat and then walked back down
and when she came back she removed her shoes and she told Max she was ready and Mac told her give me a kiss to
remember you bye she leaned in she kissed him she said thank you Mac I will always remember you
for that she was standing there with bare feet and she took the barrel of the hunting
rifle that Mac had held in his hands she drew it to her left temple she said now
and Mac pulled the trigger oh my God she was 17 years old holy [ __ ] 17 years old
oh my God that is the most chilling account I've ever heard I have Goosebumps telling it yeah I had
goosebumps writing it I've had like nightmares about this yeah I'm like picturing it in my head it's playing
like a movie it is freaking me out it is this is such a haunting case yeah like my whole body is killed right now I
think this is one that will absolutely stay with me for many many years this is the sadness and just the fact that
she found somebody willing to do this that's she she couldn't find someone that was willing to Value her but she
was she could find someone that was willing to kill her like how [ __ ] is that like God she just man you just want
to like pay you want to go back in time pick her up and just be like come live with me like let's go first let's go
we're gonna take you somewhere where people are gonna think you're [ __ ] right run away yeah like I'm Gonna Get
You Out of This like are you kidding me oh it's awful I said when it was done Mac returned to the car and he had this
was a plan because he came with he brought along with him two large lead weights he tied them around Betty's
waist and after removing his clothes he dragged her body into the pond he later told reporter she sank right
away she had 50 pounds of lead tied to her okay Mac he's very blunt matter of fact
now after she sang he returned to the car and he got dressed and he sat in the parked car with the heater running so
that he could warm up and with all the walking back and forth his boots had gotten money and he didn't
want to get the interior of his Jeep dirty because priorities I guess wow like that's the fact that his head could
even go there after murdering somebody yeah like I mean it's killing somebody yeah at the very least
that you you could even think like oh like your life just goes on like you don't want your car to be dirty tomorrow
when you wake up in your happy life oh my God like what so because he didn't want his Jeep to be dirty he left his uh
his shoes by the by the mud in the uh by the pond in the mud excuse me and they would be found by the police the next
day wow so once he was sufficiently warm Mack drove home and went to bed just went to sleep just went to sleep
a few days later after body after Betty's body had been recovered reporters asked Mack how he felt about
what he had done and he said I never felt worse in my life but I know she's better off she's better off like she's
better off dead like what I don't know what they had to have talked about for her or for him to feel
convinced that like that her life wasn't worth living oh that's the thing like that's what's
so shocking about this like he even he didn't have the capacity to look far ahead enough into the future yeah like
he had no hope for like and it's like nuns whatsoever like how do you not see like the the Brilliance here I and he
did that's the thing like that's why he wanted to be with her yeah but then at the same time he was ashamed of her yeah
it's Fox's complex it is and it only gets more complex and it only has more [ __ ] jaw-dropping oh wow so on March
22nd two days after Betty had snuck out of the house to meet Mac her mother Mary
Williams called the police to report her daughter missing two days later okay thank you for
repeating that because for a second I was like I think I heard that wrong you didn't two days later okay I don't [ __ ]
these people I don't know about that yeah so the police visited the high school and with the cooperation of the school
principal they interviewed anybody who might have any information about where Betty had gone
eventually detectives got to the cast and crew of the school play which included Betty's new boyfriend Ike who
told the police about the exchange that he had with Betty the night he dropped her off in the alley to meet Matt
herring no and it's like I get what it's been two days it's been two days and like did you not think like I mean
she literally told you you haven't heard her entire plan like that tells you everything you need to know the silence
come on SO at first Mac told and this is interesting to me it's just strange he told police that he
had driven Betty home after play practice on the evening of the 20th and that he dropped her off at her front
door around 8 30 P.M so he lied immediately yeah no he maintained for a little while that that
was the last time he'd ever seen her but the more mac talked the more the interviewing officers noticed
inconsistencies in his story and their suspicions were enough to move their conversation from the nice familiar
surroundings of the principal's office to a way more intimidating downtown Police Department yeah after about 45
minutes of additional questioning downtown Mac finally broke down and he admitted to killing buddy
he told the Odessa Odessa Police youth officer Bobby McAllen Bobby McAlpine he said there is
no motive I think I'm crazy oh yeah no he later explained to other officer that during play practice two days
earlier Betty had again begged him to end her life because quote she couldn't take living anymore like she had been
living it was just so sad and he said he agreed to her request with the intention of
talking her out of it but after talking with her on the way to the pond by the cabin he decided to go through with it
like what I don't know I I wish that we could know what the interested well like
what the conversation was in that car like bro why'd you even bring the gun yeah why'd you like it load it if you
were gonna talk or why did you have lead weights if you were gonna talk her out of it like that's the thing it's like
why'd you load that gun if you had to bring it to show her like I'm going through with this plan just so she would
get in the car and you could talk to her exactly but like not loaded but it shouldn't have been loaded No it should
have been that thing where you go there's no [ __ ] bullets in here and also like you're not doing this parents
yeah why is your 16 year old son getting into his car with a hunting rifle do you
want to ask a question like and weights like wouldn't you question that where are the adults yeah so to the
interviewing officers Mac's story was completely [ __ ] unbelievable yeah they had never seen anything and
probably never would ever see yeah like this again what sane person would shoot and kill somebody simply because they
asked like what yeah but when he talked about the shooting at the pond his story
never changed and his tone never changed it remained flat and consistent so they were like okay we're gonna drive
down to the hunting cabin and like see what what happens yeah even as they were driving down they were still convinced
that he wasn't telling the truth they were still skeptical when they arrived at the pond and Mac pointed
toward the area where he left Betty's body but the story became more convincing when he directed them to the shore where
they found spots of Blood and Tissue on the ground now whether because they were
unconvinced or unsure where to look the officers actually asked Mac if he would go into the pond and retrieve the body
whoa so he undressed and entered the water are you kidding standing in nearly four
feet of water he signaled that he had found Betty and he reached down to grab a hold of her and dragged her back to
the shore they just had him drag her out yup I don't I don't I have literally I don't
know what to say this is I don't know what to say by far and wide the most brutal case that I've covered with like
in the strangest in the strangest way like everything about this is Bleak and brutal and [ __ ] up I'm rendered
speechless and that's yeah that's that is something so he stood on the shore with the officers and told and retold
the story of how of what had happened and he explained that he asked Betty for a kiss to remember her bye and then
everything had happened now days later the pathologist would confirm his story in the preliminary autopsy report it
stated the girl died from a shotgun blast which tore into the side of her head and partially decapitated her oh my
God it's a hunting rifle at point-blank rage so soon additional officers and technicians were called to the scene
along with an ambulance to transport the body and a large number of photographers and
reporters because this is the 50s anybody can show up yeah or excuse me it's the 60s so the
story was true but to everybody in Odessa it still seemed [ __ ] unbelievable and you want to know why it seemed so
unbelievable oh why because Mac was such a nice boy my favorite thing no one could ever picture him doing something
like that one student told the reporters I just can't see Mac something terrible must have happened
that drove him to do this oh yeah he had such a bright future and then there were
other students who confirmed at least some of Mac's story and they told reporters that Betty had also asked them
to do the same thing for her one student claimed that Betty had even offered to pay him too oh that's her which I don't
know if that's the truth I think that could just be somebody wanting 15 minutes of fame that is horrific another
student said that Betty told them I want to die but I want to die pretty I don't
want my face disfigured oh just like awful which is not what happened no no it seemed like literally everyone in the
school play had at one time or another been asked by Betty to help with this plan my God but as one classmate put it
she had a morbid sense of humor nobody took her serious but she acted serious it's like so if she was acting serious
then why did nobody take her seriously yeah everybody needs to have a moment with themselves here this story you
gotta have a moment with a mirror and your your uh therapist whatever it is you gotta just have a moment yeah so
everybody recognized the tragedy and the seriousness of the situation maybe but no baby I'm like I don't really know
about that but nobody seemed willing to say an ill world word about Mac Herring even Ike nail who was dating Betty and
had literally delivered her to her faith that evening refused to talk to reporters and the only thing he would
say was anything I might say would just hurt Mac what the [ __ ] is going on what about
Betty what does he have on all of you I have he's popular like damn he's a football star and he's popular that's
literally it he rules the [ __ ] world in high school I gotta go so Betty's death prompted an outpouring of support
for Mac yep I was just gonna say and that support included everything that it really shouldn't have quote
concerned phone calls to him visits from friends and no seeming diminution of his
popularity I think I said that right by the way I think you did yeah now while students and friends were completely
shocked to learn of Betty's death they were also surprised to learn quote that Mac and a lot of the other boys we knew
had been spending time with Betty after they had taken their girlfriends home so people are [ __ ] talking her still
cool she has been killed she has gotten so desperate and so lonely and so sad that she begged somebody to end her life
they agreed she's not here anymore and y'all are still talking [ __ ] when people show you
who they are believe them oh my God because yep like it is that tells you everything you need to know it is beyond
disgusting that this is the information they were spreading about her all around
Odessa it seemed the consensus was Betty was odd and provocative the kind of girl
who would do something like this that's what they were saying Jesus Mack on the other hand though Elena quote Mac would
break his arm before he would hurt anybody then why didn't he um so show me that broken arm where's
your broken arm yeah like who said that yeah he would break his arm before he hurt anybody he shot someone in the head
so he killed someone I don't know what you guys are talking about Jesus now after the body had been recovered and
the statements had been given John MC Herring was taken before a justice of the peace and Kermit where he pleaded
not guilty to a charge of murder with malice now his attorney William uh Deirdre
waved his rights to an examining trial and he was taken to Winkler County jail and held on a ten thousand dollar Bond
he was released on bond the following day so that tells you a lot about this and
returned home with his parents to await news of a hearing good like whoa that seems right also ten thousand dollars
back then I actually didn't look at it a lot they was rich rich apparently yeah now funeral funeral services for Betty
were held on Friday March 24th at odessa's Friendship Baptist Church which pisses me off because she wouldn't have
wanted that yeah attendance was at capacity the fact that it was at capacity it's like she was more popular
in death than she ever was in life and it just like oh my gosh it is just [ __ ] up like it
really speaks to this situation how shallow everyone is the preacher read a passage from The
Book of Revelations over Betty's closed casket and her father filled with regret I'm sure yeah wailed
uncontrollably in the front Pew like lost it on more than one occasion her sister had to literally hold her father
back from hurling himself on top of the on top of the casket it's like well like
give her the love she needed in her whole life like you can't just do it now I think a lot of that was regretting the
way that he had treated her in life and absolutely guilt yeah you know now elsewhere that same day district
attorney Don Sullivan was examining a note that had been given to him by Mack's Father which he believed
exonerated his son the letter was dated March 20th 1961 and it was written in Betty's handwriting it
read and this is a lot I want everyone to know that what I'm about to do in no way
implicates anyone else I say this to make sure that no blame falls on anyone other than myself I have depressing
problems that concern for the most part myself I'm waging a war Within Myself a war to find the true me and I fear that
I'm losing the battle so rather than admit defeat I'm going to beat a quick Retreat into the No Man's Land of death
as they have only the will and not the fortitude necessary a friend of mine seeing how great is my torment has
graciously consented to look after the details his name is Matt Herring and I pray he will not have to suffer for what
he is doing for my sake I take appla I take upon myself all blame for there it lies on me alone sincerely Betty
Williams she's also a brilliant writer she's a brilliant I think she would have had a
[ __ ] phenomenal career in writing oh that's heart-wrenching though and just the fact that she sat and and still
there was no one knocking on her door peeking their head in while she was writing this like she knew there
wouldn't be why yeah why wasn't anyone there for her so the DA's office was hesitant to
discuss the case publicly because they worried that it would affect their ongoing investigation negatively
but the prosecutor John Banks did explain the seriousness of the charge to the press and he said I understand he
got his shotgun his lead weights and his rope and then picked the girl up this constitutes murder with malice of
forethought yeah it does it does and according to Banks the obvious planning that went into this execution was
grounds for the most serious of punishments and as such he was recommending to the D.A that the death
penalty be attached oof yeah I don't know about that I also don't know about that I don't think that was a
good idea I don't either now as weeks went by the DA's office really wrestled with how to go forward because Mac had
confessed to The Killing but his explanation still to everybody seemed completely far-fetched and completely
unbelievable because by all accounts he was this normal boy who did really great
in school never caused anybody trouble the principal of the high school literally told reporters if I were asked
to name my most Cooperative student I would pause him in it and then say Matt Herring wow like wow and it's also so
sad that everybody is talking about Mac and what a great person he is cool he's still here you guys can tell him that
later yeah exactly anybody want to say a word about Betty yeah the timed word why
don't we let Mac get through his murder trial yeah we can wait on the compliments and then why don't we talk
about Betty well while we wait maybe for the murder trial no other school officials had to had to chime in too
because they felt similarly oh yeah they referred to macca's Fair really quiet very friendly well-liked and real clean
cut oh yeah always has a haircut you know what I feel like school officials in the 50s and 60s just loved a football
player excuse like it was still the case when I was in school it's like he was well liked he's
like oh okay tackle someone and catch and throw wowie kazawi yeah it's just um America
[Music] now even Betty's parents told the police and the press that they had actually
always liked Mac and in the months since Betty's death her father uh his sorry her father's quote heart was too filled
with grief to Harbor hate for the Slayer of his daughter oh that's just sad it is really sad I I
feel badly that he had to suspend the rest of his life wondering what had happened absolutely or not wondering
what had happened but living with like guilty yeah living with the whole situation so the sentiment among the
students was also similar one girl said we must feel sorry for Mac now we can feel sorrow for Betty later
go [ __ ] yourself and what about that makes sense we have to feel we have to show up for Mac right now worry about
Betty later it's like oh that seemed to always be the [ __ ] issue y'all that's why we're here don't worry about Betty
later like I hope you stub your toe later now others just didn't even bother to mask their bias one day literally
like barely after buddy had died her uncle overheard another guy uh overheard a guy tell another guy everyone knew
that girl was no good she tricked that boy into killing her oh my God but like what was the trick
does this sound like Footloose what's going on it sounds like it like Jesus I think it kind of was like that yeah also
like but like what's the trick she tricked him into doing this well that's the thing it's like okay she tricked him
into getting the lead weights like well it's like she's got the ultimate punishment here she's gone like what
like what ridiculous yeah so he's a hunter he knows what happens when you pull a trigger I don't know where the
trick lies now despite the disbelief and bewilderment from staff and students and
law enforcement and the press and every investigating officer ever people couldn't help but notice how
seemingly unaffected Mac was by everything specifically investigating officers as he told the story to these
officers on the night after his arrest officer McAlpine was completely put off by his flat emotionless tone while he
literally told of killing his former girlfriend seriously officers who had accompanied Mac to the location of the
body they were also disturbed by his lack of emotion one highway patrol officer recalled it didn't move him when
he pulled her body out of the water or when he said that he had put a shotgun to her head my God something's wrong
there something's deeply wrong now his seemingly remorseless attitude also struck reporters as unusual
the swell of character references and just support for Mac really didn't align with somebody who had just killed
another person without explanation and the descriptions of him didn't match the flat remorseless killer who had been
cooperating since day one he was like a dichotomy and enough himself yeah now according to the sheriff Bill Edens he
said something's missing somewhere you don't just take people out and shoot them like rabbits no that's exactly how
I feel like something is very much something is missing here some kind of like human empathy and compassion final
piece of this but the lack of motive was holding up the case from progressing to
trial but that also didn't stop anybody from speculating as to the reason for the death officers in the sheriff's
department actually started to speculate that Betty wanted to restart her relationship with mac and was asking
classmates to kill her so that she could gain some kind of sympathy from Mac and
win his love back wow now their their theory if you can even call it that suggested that this
entire thing was just a melodramatic game rather than a serious desire to end her life which she went through what she
went through with yeah and the students at Odessa High they had similar theories
they said this whole thing they were like I think it was a joke I think it all started as a joke with mac and Betty
trying to out Bluff each other they said and then he must have just cracked up and killed Betty
like what but he's a great guy so don't don't think anything different awesome dude yeah now after months of looking
for any kind of explanation for Betty's death to the DA's office finally gave up
looking and they just filed papers to take the case to trial now on June 23 1961 judge G.C Olsen of the 109th
District Court set the trial date for September 18th there were all kinds of delays all kinds
of hold ups but finally his trial got underway in mid-February of 1962. wow now because he had confessed to the
killing the question at hand was if he was of sound mind at the time of the killing and could be held accountable or
not his defense team filed a motion to have a sanity hearing held separately from
the murder charge which was actually granted by the uh by the judge on the grounds that if Mack was deemed insane
at the time of the killing he could not be held accountable accountable and then
they wouldn't have to have a criminal trial okay now the DA's office immediately objected and they filed a
motion to have mac evaluated by a psychiatrist who was far more qualified than a jury to determine sanity but the
judge actually rejected the the motion what isn't that bananas there it is no the jury can do it no so in their
opening remarks the defense team took the dish the position that no sane person would do what Mac had done and
through evidence and testimony they said they would show that he was just a tool
in Betty Williams scheme oh so now she's scheming to end her life yeah she's she's dead but now
she's scheming let's totally slander her in court now now the prosecution on the
other hand told the jury John and this is a quote John MC Herring planned prepared and executed a horrible offense
and was of sound mind at the time this was a cold-blooded premeditated murder and that's and uh Dan Sullivan said that
to the jury and then he added that the prosecution was going to prove as much by demonstrating that John MC Herring
was cool and rational just one day after the killing sounds like he was he literally was now opening statements
were followed by a ton of character Witnesses testifying on Mac's behalf because everybody was just dying yada
yada yada he's so great there was also a handwriting analyst verifying Betty's letter to the police and Dr Marvin Grice
a psychiatrist who actually had evaluated Mac on multiple occasions and the days after the killing was also
there and he told the jury that he believed Mack was insane at the time of the killing he noted that he believed
Mack was quote suffering from gross stress reaction at the time of the tragedy and he said based on his discussions
with Mac Grace concluded that Betty was quote in a condition of Death Wish and that her persistent request LED Mack
to being dethroned of his reasoning what and his professional opinion was then echoed by nine character Witnesses
who were mostly students yeah that agreed Mac was not in his right uh mind at the time of the murder like cool
we're just gonna take a bunch of 17 year olds all right cool also you're not as a
psychiatrist or a psychologist supposed to diagnose anybody that you've never seen
no the psychiatrist had never seen that 101. he had never seen Betty so how is he supposed to talk about her frame of
mind yeah ridiculous now on cross-examination he admitted he hadn't even talked to Betty's parents or
friends and he was emo he was basing his understanding of Betty's emotional state
entirely on interviews with mac and some of the handful of students that had visited him for treatment that are
obsessed with him cool he said that sounds like a great pool to choose from for like totally unbiased reviews like
you haven't even spoken to her family dude yeah he said that her persistent pleadings that's what he called them had
cosmack to become quote so mixed up and so sick that he felt pulling the trigger
was the uh was what he should do for her he was deprived of the power of applying
logic wow no did you limber up before you stretched that far he was deprived of the power of applying logic literally no
one can do that to you if you have a way of like figuring something out you do yeah or you don't like you could apply
logic if it's there and he's implying that it was Betty Who robbed him scheming and it's like oh so we're just
gonna keep stiff like just it's all Betty's fault yeah so everybody was just coming on the stand and being like well
she was dramatic and she was always saying this stuff and blah blah blah blah blah so I like the gossip that
began circulating in the wake of Betty's death and the community's rushed to support Mac the defense's case relied
heavily on victim blaming to just absolve Mack of any kind of responsibility under normal circumstances he was a good
boy who would have gone above and beyond to help anybody they all said it was only after Betty's ceaseless
melodramatic badgering that he lost the power to apply logic and it's like no one's really arguing
here that much about like whether this is how it happened that like Betty asked and he did it yeah no one's really
arguing that what we're arguing is are you [ __ ] kidding me that someone asks you to kill them and you do it yeah like
that's that's honestly the purest thing that we're really looking at here no one's really arguing that Betty was
suicidal that she had expressed suicidal ideation yep that she had asked several people to
help her do this including Mac several times yep the problem here is that all those people said no and you said yes
yup and then you did it like that's that's where the problem lies that's a problem like
nobody does that and now the problem is that we're relying on a bunch of 17 year
olds to say whether he was sane or not exactly do you even know what sane means he's at 17 years old I sure didn't no no
so the next day Mac was actually called to testify on his own behalf and the prosecution asked him when was it that
you lost contact with reality um excuse me what objection leading the witness thank you Jesus Christ Matt
couldn't recall he said he he had no idea because he was like because I didn't like that I don't know what that
means exactly he was also pretty evasive when Sullivan pointed out that he had told at least one person
his girlfriend his current girlfriend that he planned to kill Betty so this suggested that at some point
before it happened Mack knew he was going to kill Betty which meant that he wasn't insane at the time of the murder
because he was full well planning to do it days before and actually told his girlfriend that he was wow and she
didn't do anything either these are so he was like Sullivan was like what's the deal with that and Mac responded I
didn't I didn't know as you speak of knowing I didn't want to kill buddy I just wanted to help her
you know what maybe all these people do need Jesus I don't know like something's
something's awry well like what does that mean I didn't know as you speak of knowing
what are you Dr Seuss like what is this he also testified that Betty had asked him on three separate occasions if she
if he would kill her and he estimated this consumed a total of some 28 minutes so this prompted Sullivan to ask in 28
minutes was she able to wear you down and Dethrone you of your reason and macro applied no sir
wow so that tells you everything you need to know people he admitted it he admitted it
28 minutes on like over the course of multiple days you were not 28 minutes that was just I think he literally
pulled that out of thin air now the jury deliberated for almost 11 hours and at one point they even sent the judge a
note saying that they had become hopelessly deadlocked wow and the judge responded by telling them that the note
was premature like nearly 11 hours and he said the evidence presented during the trial
would indicate that further deliberation of this matter might result in the further progress in further progress
being made okay so he's basically saying like if you deliberate too much in this matter
we might go forward to a criminal trial I think that's exactly what he was trying to say
now Mac literally disagreed with the psychiatrist's assessment of his temporary insanity but the jury returned
a verdict finding that he was temporarily insane when he fired the bullet that ended Betty Williams That's
bananas so when the verdict was read Max family erupted into tears and Applause but before the judge even claws into a
plot that is so [ __ ] up so disrespectful yeah so disrespectful but before the judge finished reading the
verdict John Banks the attorney for the prosecution objected and moved that a mistrial be declared declared on the
grounds that the jury had made a mistake in filling out the forms but judge Olson
immediately denied that wow so shocked so in the wake of the verdict the D.A Don
Sullivan actually filed an appeal of the ruling arguing that Mac Herring had been
indicted for murder and that judge Olson didn't have the jurisdiction to set aside the indictment and pursue only the
question of the sanity yeah so this was like a whole mistrial basically essentially he was arguing that Max
sanity should have been a factor for consideration when it was determining whether or not he was guilty or Innocent
but saying that the court never had the jurisdiction to determine that factor separate from the trial in the first
place making the verdict completely illegitimate boom so after hearing the case the state supreme court agreed with the
District Attorney's Office reverse the verdict and prompted a new trial for me and it was as though the first trial
didn't take place so the retrial started on December 2nd 1962 and I think it's Beaumont Texas
yeah I think you're right cool I didn't look it up yeah uh the church was on one
count of murder with malice and if he were to be found guilty he could receive the death penalty if that was still on
the table again he was represented by the same Council and it basically like everybody was the same the day was the
same Mac had the same lawyer blah blah blah yeah also this was Dan Sullivan the district attorney his second murder
trial oh my God this is your second murder trial the first one was Max previous trial
wow yeah now from the jump it was clear that this trial was going to go exactly the same as the first one had gone that
sucks the defense team's position was that Mac did shoot Betty but only after she had worn him down by repeatedly
begging him to do so it was literally the same trial over and over again now once again though Betty's
letter absolving Mac of responsibility was the anchor for the defense and as was the testimony of Mac's dad O A
chairing so you know he's Rich his name is oh he told the sun his son he told the jury his son quote was a happy boy
before always smiling now that old smile is missing it's not there it's like he's
trying to make up for the sorrow he's caused good I was gonna say like I hope he is
Bully for him I don't okay so max mother just basically echoed her husband's testimony and told the jury that she had
directly asked her son whether or not he had done it and he said I must have as if he couldn't remember oh so she was
trying to be like he was insane yeah he blacked out now even though the arguments from both sides were pretty
much the same as they had been in the first trial the second trial quickly became a media circus there were
multiple occasions where the defense objected to a certain seemingly innocuous piece of evidence that was
being admitted but later on they asked that that same piece of evidence be admitted for no other reason than to
just undermine and manipulate the Public's view of it so there's like gaslighting people they're like get out
of here that does nothing and then they're like bring that back on take that out why would you do that awesome
at one point the judge also seemed to think that district attorney Sullivan was implying that the court wasn't being
fair because he'd spoken out against the defense's court Romantics and the judge
told him that he would hold him in contempt of court for three days if he ever suggested anything like that again
holy [ __ ] I'm like you guys are losing sight of what we're here for you guys gotta chill now aside from the antics
it was all the same there was no new information or evidence so it was hard to imagine any kind of different outcome
and there wasn't after deliberating for several hours the jury delivered a verdict of not guilty
now for a time it seemed like there would be another deadlock jury especially when the judge ruled that the
jury couldn't review the trans transcript of the witness testimony when they requested it
um that's shady I don't think that's okay yeah but the next day they all reached a unanimous decision and upon
hearing a verdict Max parents rushed to the jury box and started thanking the jury telling them it's going to be a
Merry Christmas wow uh not for Betty's family yeah but thanks and her father on the other hand
was overheard to mutter it is a gross miscarriage of Justice yeah which it is I agree so
it's just awful now from the moment Betty was pulled from the pond where she was literally
weighted down and dumped by somebody that she had loved once yeah the residents of Odessa both young and old
and everything in between they had already made up their minds about what had happened why it happened and who was
to blame Mack was just a normal kid played football got good grades he was always quick to help when anybody needed
anything but Betty she was challenging she was defiant she was a progressive Misfit and worst of all she engaged in
sex well worst of all now in the absence of an explanation the people of Odessa and pretty much all of Texas maybe did
what they had always done they just assumed that whatever had happened it was almost certainly Betty's fault they
said she had harassed Mac to the point that he was powerless to apply reason and he would never have done this if she
hadn't been so manipulative wow yeah wow now the truth is the only person who really knows why Mac pulled the trigger
isma is Mac yeah and he died in 2019. oh so his motive will likely remain a mystery wow but what we can say is
regardless of what she thought she wanted or what Mac felt like the right thing was Betty's death could have been
avoided if even one [ __ ] person one [ __ ] person was there to help and responded to her with sympathy
compassion and a solution instead of literally rolling their eyes at her or laughing at her
Mac obviously fired the gun that ended Betty's life but when all was said and done it's really hard to say who should
take all the responsibility for her murder yeah because I don't think it's just Mac alone no I don't think so
either I think where she lived is responsible yeah I think her home life was responsible I think
teachers were responsible students were I think it was a systematic failure on every level exactly I think everybody
failed her and this is quite possibly the saddest case I have ever personally covered that is unbelievably tragic
isn't it and I had never heard of this no I had never heard of it Dave brought it to my attention so shout out to
freaking Dave shout out to [ __ ] Dave is amazing this story I I can't believe I've never heard of that story I know me
either truly wild it's so sad I feel like we're gonna be talking about this really I know poor Betty yeah so guys
um that was really heavy yeah obviously so we're gonna be back with listener tales in a couple days please go do
something that makes you happy and if you are struggling right now please know that there are people out there that you
can talk to and it's gonna get better you talk to anybody like someone will help you someone is around that will
care about you exactly um and yeah that is the case of Betty Williams it's also known again as the
kiss and kill murder which is so [ __ ] up yeah um but we love you and we hope you keep
listening and we hope you keep it weird I don't think I need one to close this out you don't I think you all know not
to keep it as weird as any of that it'll get better everyone bye [Music] foreign
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When Betty Williams’ boyfriend, Mack Herring, broke up with her during their senior year of high school, her entire world felt like it was collapsing in on her. She had been struggling with depression and anxiety for some time, all of which seemed compounded by the problems of a society and culture that in 1961 seemed steadfastly unwilling to accept her for who she was. For Betty, death seemed the only way to free herself from the losing battle she had been fighting; however, despite her commitment to ending her life, Betty simply didn’t have what she described as “the fortitude necessary” to go through with it. Instead, she begged one last thing of the young man who had just broken her heart—she wanted him to pull the trigger for her.

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Brief Summary

Betty Williams, a 17-year-old, was murdered by her boyfriend Mac Herring after she asked him to help end her life, raising complex issues of mental health and responsibility.

Key points

The Tragic Story of Betty Williams. Explore the life and struggles of Betty Williams, a young woman ahead of her time.
A Call for Understanding. Betty believed in addressing social issues through drama and art, but faced isolation.
Betty's Struggles with Acceptance. Betty yearns for love and acceptance in a world that shuns her for her desires.
The Breakup That Devastated Betty. Betty's relationship with Mac ends, leaving her feeling humiliated and alone.
The Impact of the New Drama Teacher. Betty's dreams of theater are crushed when she is given a lesser role.
The Boy Who Cried Wolf. Betty's cries for help were dismissed as drama, leading to tragic consequences.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

She was determined to put an end to her life.

7:09WatchMar 9, 2023

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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