JonBenét Ramsey: Crime Junkie Deep Dives into Tragic Mystery | Forensic Files

hi crime junkies I'm your host Ashley flowers and I'm Brit and I am finally doing it going on tour we're doing that
yes so yeah we actually are crime drinky tour Is For Real make sure you're in the
fan club because if you want to buy tickets early fan club members will get first access that happens December 2nd
go to our website y y I'm L all the things will be in the show notes that you need to know but that is not what
I'm talking about that is not the thing that I'm talking about the thing that I'm doing is I'm officially doing the
case that I swore I would never do the case that I think of as our crime junkie origin story Never Say Never right I
know and like well I think for a long time I would just think that there was like nothing that I could really bring
like this case has been done Seven Ways to Sunday I feel like there are less versions of the Bible than there are of
books that have been written about this case by anyone who's even connected to the victim in any way possible and I am
of course talking about John B Ramsey well and when you say crime junkie origin story it is like the case that
made us crime junkies we were tabloid height when she was all over the tabloids oh yeah I always said that my
mom and my grandma made me crime junkies I was into mystery novels but it was when we were were almost her age uh John
Ramsey reminded me of that when I sat down with him we are her age and it was the first time I realized that these
stories actually like happen in real life and it was to someone who was my age it looked like us it was it was
scary so for a generation who didn't grow up tabloid height staring into the green eyes of a beauty queen in the
making and for those of us who did but maybe only know this case at a surface level and you want to know how did we
get here and what can we do now I got you I have dug deep I thought I knew everything about the jam Ramsey case
because I grew up with it but I found out that what I knew was like the tip of the iceberg I have all the same
questions that you do I even got to ask those questions to one of the people at the center of this case someone who has
been dubbed a child killer by the media but says it is all a lie and that he and
his family have been victimized twice once by an unknown killer and then again by the media I actually filmed my
conversation with John Ramsay you guys can find that on the YouTube channel along with this episode and I promise
you you are going to want to see it but first let me tell you the story not from
any side I have no Theory I thought one thing when I was young another thing when I was older but what I realized
when I actually dug in deep is that I never had a real understanding of the facts themselves and that is what I want
to give everyone here today so if you were looking for a One-Stop shop to give you the case a layer deeper than you'll
hear anywhere else this episode is for you this is the story story of John B [Music]
Ramsey 911 emergency police what 55th Street what's going on there man we have a kidnapping
hurry please explain to me what's going on okay there we have a there's a not left and our daughter's G A not was left
and your daughter is gone how old is your daughter 6 years old she's gone 6 years
[Applause] old how long ago was it I don't know I took it on the not and my daughter say
who took her what does it say who I don't know it's there's a there's a ransom note here it's a ransom know it
says sbtc Victory please okay what's your name are you the mother oh my God please I'm okay
I'm sending an off over okay do you know how long she's been gone no I don't please we just got up and she right here
oh my God please okay I am honey take a deep breath Hy Cy Cy that feels like the 911 call heard
around the world by this point but when it first came into Boulder police on December 26th 1996 at 5:52 in the
morning they had no clue how Infamous this call was going to become all they knew was that they had a report of a
kidnapping in an upscale neighborhood of their safe little Community now py says
that she made two more calls to friends of theirs after the 911 call the whites and the feres she was asking them to
come over for support before she went to like Pace in front of their window now what in actuality was probably just a
couple of minutes felt to her like hours and when the marked car pulled up at 555
she says her heart sank because the ransom letter had said not to call police and that kidnappers were watching
and if they saw police that they would hurt John Benet but it was too late now when officer French made it inside John
immediately took him to where the three-page handwritten Ransom note was like splayed out on the wooden floor
just off the kitchen near the stairs that py had found it on and Brit I'm going to have you would you mind
actually reading it oh sure I put it in the folder for you the ransom note says Mr Ramsay
listen carefully we are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction we respect your business
but not the country that it serves at this time we have your daughter in our possession She is safe and unharmed and
if you want her to see 1997 you must follow our instructions to the letter you will withdraw
$118,000 from your account $100,000 will be in $100 bills and the remaining $8,000 in $20 bills make sure that you
bring an adequate size attache to the bank when you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag I will call
you between 8: and 10: a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery the delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be
rested if we monitor you getting the money early we might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money
and hence an earlier pickup of your daughter any deviation of my instructions will result in the
immediate execution of your daughter you will also be denied her remains for a proper burial the two gentlemen watching
over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them speaking to anyone about your
situation such as police FBI Etc will result in your daughter being beheaded if we catch you talking to a stray dog
she dies if you alert Bank Authorities she dies if the money is in any way marked or tampered with she dies you
will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found she dies you can try to deceive us but be warned that we
are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics you stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if
you you try to outsmart us follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back you and your family
are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities don't try to grow a brain John you are not the only fat cat
around so don't think that killing will be difficult don't underestimate us John
use that good Southern common sense of yours it's up to you now John Victory sbtc so that's the letter that they're
working with and what we know is the ramsy had an alarm system but they hadn't said it the night before or
actually even in a long time not since it had gone off accidentally and scared the living pants off jean veneet and her
older brother Burke who by the way is nine at this point and still asleep upstairs in his room according to Mom
and Dad now they say that they had checked on him once when they realized that John B was missing but once they
saw that he was okay they wanted to just let him sleep I like I'm assuming they probably just didn't want him to worry
till they had a better idea of what was going on and like what they were going to do like once they knew that there was
going to be help then they would worry about it so officer French does this quick skim of the house and I say quick
but this puppy was over 6,000 I mean I've heard one place like 7,000 square feet had like 15 rooms four different
floors if you include the basement but French does this quick look through he doesn't see anything that jumps out his
report says that there were no signs of for Century or a struggle and obviously no signs of the missing six-year-old so
he moved to instructing another officer Sergeant Reichenbach to control the scene and a I don't know when
Reichenbach showed up but you'll see more people kind of start like flooding in and B controlling the scene is a
loose term in this story and something Boulder police will get roasted for down the line because within 15 minutes of
French's arrival those friends that py had called start showing up Priscilla and Fleet White had been their first
call followed by John and Barbara Fernie and somehow the family priest gets contacted along the way and like one by
one these people are showing up and they're there by like 7:13 now while John Ramsey made calls to
try and line up that $118,000 that the kidnapper had asked for more and more people were showing up too so they had
victim Advocates that came to the house there were finally some detectives that got there by like 8:10 that morning
namely Linda art who was charged with managing the situ ation now what John told me that he didn't know at the time
were that these weren't seasoned homicide or missing person's detectives what the detectives didn't know at the
time was that this wasn't a missing person's case as the clock ticked every moment in the house was tense Burk
Ramsey John B's 9-year-old brother had been woken up and removed from the home by this point their friend Fleet white
who was one of the people paty had called come over he taken Burke back to their house and while py cried in one
room with her friends by her side John was in another taking instructions from detective art about what to do if the
kidnapper called and he's like going through the mail he told me to see if there's any other Communications from
the kidnapper and he told me that he was in just like do do do mode like action mode he thought that if he kept his wits
about him that's the say he always used if I keep my wits about me then if I'm smart like I could still actually get my
I can figure this out right now plenty of people had been looking around the house without finding anything but John
wanted to keep moving so at some point that morning exact time a little fuzzy TVD but at some point that morning he
went down to the basement which this is a point that Boulder Police gets roasted
on right like people are just all over the house contaminating the crap out of like what is actually a crime scene oh
yeah they it's kind of wild they had blocked off John B room like 5 hours after detective French got to the house
but everything else was like a free-for-all like have at it it seems like people were all over the place
nothing was off limits except Jean B's room ex except a room right and there's nothing that stands out about her room
right no I mean like so her covers were pulled back like someone had got her out
of bed there's some stuff that becomes interesting a little bit later which I can get into but nothing that really
stands out in there it looks like a room that a kid had just kind of truly gotten
like plucked out from in the middle of the night so to get back to it though so John goes to the basement at some point
that morning when he did his 1997 interview his best guest was like maybe it was sometime around or before 10:00
a.m. but he goes down he doesn't report finding anything to detective AR or any of the other officers now no one made no
of the time when 10:00 came and went and there was no communication from the kidnapper like they said in the note
there were calls throughout the morning I mean at least three according to detective ARS report and each time JN
would run to the phone he would answer the call but each time it was just some well-meaning friend checking in and like
you word was spreading at this point now Linda AR kept paging for backup she had
kicked a good number of people out of the house by this point officers the victim Advocates but all of the family
friends were still there and it was a hard scen to control but page after page she was getting no response and when she
tried to phone in she was told that everyone was in a meeting that's what she said in her Good Morning America
interview so it's just she's not getting the help that she needs and as more time
passed Linda AR felt like she needed to keep Jon's mind occupied by 12:30 she makes a note that he seems to be
isolating himself and just kind of staring like so she's like I got to give him something to do so after a
conversation with one of the family friends Fleet white she suggests to John that excluding John bonet's room he
should check the house top to bottom see if there's anything even missing John took the instruction to heart but he
decided inste to search bottom to top at 1: p.m. he went for the door to the basement with Fleet close behind him and
within 5 minutes everything was chaos there was screams fleet was bounding up the stairs and Detective AR made it to
the doorway in time to see Jon coming up the final few steps like holding John Benet by her waist her body was already
stiff with rigor her head was turned to one side and her arms were above her head with some kind of like white string
or cord rope kind of thing hanging from one of her wrists detective AR told John
you like put John bade down by the front door she said that her lips were already
blue like she knew she was dead but she still checks for a pulse anyway but she was cold the touch when she touches her
so Linda AR moves John B's body to another spot on the first floor and JN asked to cover her up with a blanket
which she let him do which is more contamination this is like the worst case scenario here because it's not even
just the blanket like Jon held her at some point like he's like laying on the floor and when paty comes into the room
she laid on top of her while she's crying pray like literally she's like praying to Jesus like asking him I think
the line is like you raise Lazarus like please raise my baby so you to your point like you have all of this
contamination happening but Linda aren't called 911 telling them like I need an ambulance I need a coroner like whatever
like the delay is in getting people here like you have to get people here now she
called again when they still hadn't come a few minutes later and then again after
she saw an ambulance drive past the house so this is like the Murphy's Law of crime scenes everything that could go
wrong was is going wrong but now it's time for everyone to get out Ramsay and Friends included so while a search
warrant was being obtained for the house and John Benet was sent off for autopsy
detectives tried to speak more with the family one detective was sent to go talk
to Burke who basically just told him like everything in our house was normal like our parents Wen abusive there
weren't any arguments on or leading up to Christmas day so like nothing meaningful from him and that evening
Linda art and another detective went to speak with John Ramsay they were staying
at a friend's house and by the time Linda got there there were even more people that had come to be with them
they had more friends even the family doctor Dr buff was there and sometimes he's called The Family Doctor sometimes
he's called nominees pediatrician it might be like a little bit of both he' given p a volume so Linda didn't see her
when she came by but she did get to talk to John for about 40 minutes and it's worth noting that she talked to John
during her time at the home as well like so she and others had gotten the initial
story of the day like or days leading up to John's death and John points to this
fact a lot when I talk to him because if you know this story you'll know that a big part of the narrative is the fact
that the family they say they didn't cooperate they didn't talk to police for a long time but John points to this and
he says look yes we did we talked to them in our home and in our friends home and that is true and it is also true
that they stopped cooperating after that 40-minute meeting and here's why so according to John Ramsey he told me he
had gotten a call within the first like day or two we're talking the 26th 27th from the person he told me who ran his
HR at his company and they told him like Hey I have this inside source telling me
that the police are looking at you and paty for this you need to lawyer up well advice taken because of the friends who
were sitting alongside John Rams that evening when Linda had come during that like 40-minute conversation was a guy
named Mike bam Mike was John Ramsay's corporate council at his company so when police had left that night like after
that 40-minute thing they suggested a formal sit down with the ramies obviously tensions were high py was
currently incapacitated and the majority of their interactions had been when they
thought that JN B was a missing person like there was plenty more questions that needed to be asked by police which
I agree with like at least everything that made it into the reports about the conversations they had in those early
days when they were speaking it's pretty surface level I mean we get some like immediate people that they suspect does
anything in the note stand out to them like who has keys to the house Etc but if they were going to find out who
killed jeanan they were going to have to go a few layers deeper so Linda suggested like let's do this sit down at
the station on the 28th but either in that moment or maybe later it's not totally clear from
Linda's report it seems like Mike put the kabash on that and listen like we got a rule for a reason right like
always get a lawyer but this is the beginning of a decades long battle between the Ramsay and I think police
question mark But like who is behind what in this case as you'll come to see is pretty
convoluted so the ramsy don't go talk to police on the 28th they do have a closed
memorial service that day for Jean banet in Colorado before they leave town which
I knew happened but it was that soon yes so John Ramsey says that they wanted to
go back to Atlanta where their support system was I mean they had only just moved to Boulder like a handful of years
before this like in ' 91 because his company had gotten bought out by locky or locky Martin now so he says that he
still thought of Atlanta as home like they always had planned to move back and like that's where they were planning to
bury Jean Benet in the same Cemetery as her older half sister who had died in a car accident a few years before and
interestingly about um his company like that bought access Graphics luy John Raves about them like you'll see that in
my sit down with him but one of the things that they did after Jean benet's death was they had offered John a
company plane to take him to Atlanta so the company plane takes him to Atlanta 29th 30th goes by 31st is Jean B's
funeral and then the first all media Hell Breaks Loose in a move that John Ramsey himself will later
call a mistake he and py decide to go on CNN I feel like this is like the one of
the most like famous parts of this case that you can like I can see that yeah now they haven't had a formal sit down
with police but they have this sit down with the media and it rubs people all of
the wrong ways gramy you found the note was a handwritten note three pages I didn't um I couldn't read the
whole thing I I just gotten up we were on our it was the day after Christmas and we were going to go
visiting and it was quite early in the morning and I gotten dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make
some coffee cofy and we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas and I always come down
that staircase and I'm usually the first one down and the note was lying across the three pages across the Run of
one of the stair treads and it was kind of dimly lit was very early in the morning and I started to read it and it
was addressed to John it said Mr ramsy and it said we have your daughter and I you know it just was it
just wasn't registering and I I may have gotten through another sentence I I we have your
daughter and I I don't know if I got any further than that and I immediately ran back upstairs
and pushed open her door and she was not in her bed and I screamed for John and John you've subsequently read
the the note was there anything in there that struck you in any sense well no I mean I read it very fast I was
out of my mind and uh it said don't call the police you know that type of thing and I
told py to call the police immediately and and and uh I think I ran through the house a
bit we went to check our son to her son's room sometimes she sleeps in here and uh we just were we were we were just
frantic the police said a couple of days ago to assure other residents of Boulder
there is no killer on the loose here you can be assure everything is under control you you believe it's someone
outside your home there is a killer on the loose abely I don't know who it is I don't
know if it's a he or a she but if I were a resident of Boulder I would tell my friends to
keep okay keep your babies close to you there's someone out there you know America has just been hurt so deeply
with the this the tragic things that have happened and the young woman who drove her children into the water
and we don't know what happened with the OJ Simpson and I mean America is suffering because they they
have lost faith in the American family we are a Christian God fearing family we love our children we would do
anything for our children so this interview that they did was actually a lot quicker than I had in my head I
don't know why like growing up I thought this was like this like long special where they gave sit down yeah statements
about everything but I feel like the part that you heard about the note was like
honestly the most detail that we got I think in total it ends up being like a I think I heard the CNN anchor like
40-minute thing but there were other like little things here and there but mostly overall it was the ramy's
opportunity to let the public know that they were unhappy with the direction of the investigation they didn't think that
the Boulder Police Department had the right resources allocated to the case and so they were going to be putting
together their own investigative team and offering up a reward so did you ask John why they agreed to do something
like this well just to be clear they didn't agree to like some incoming ask like John had a friend who knew the
president of CNN so they really made this interview happen oh but John said something this was one of the more
interesting parts of our interview like about why they decided to do this in the
first place and listen I have heard this guy talk a lot I've read his books I've
seen the interviews that he's done I mean his life story is drilled into him like word for word he has had a lifetime
of people probably asking him the same questions over and over and he gives the same answers over and over because he's
consistent and in the past what I've seen or read is that he talks about how his friends thought that they should go
on they should tell their version of events that they should defend themselves and what he told me still was
that his friends were the ones really pushing the interview but the reason behind why was
different hi crime junkies I'm your host Ashley flowers and I'm Brit and every week we
cover all kinds of True Crime cases from the most infamous to mysterious deaths and disappearances even cases you've
never heard anywhere else if you can't get enough of all things True Crime well you found your people and if you're like
us and want to make a real impact in these cases you're definitely a crime junkie so join us every Monday for new
episodes you can find crime junkie wherever you get your podcast casts okay so in our sitdown John Ramsay
told me that his friends wanted him to go on CNN to protect Boulder what does that even
mean great question I asked it and I didn't really get a totally clear answer and this is truly where when you're done
with the episode I'm telling people you have to go watch the interview with him it's on YouTube he just kept saying
Boulder was this weird place like this bubble where reality was like outside of it like I I'm like I know I'm not making
sense but like it didn't really make sense to me and I don't know it like in talking to them and like seeing stuff
that theyve done in the past it doesn't seem like they liked the place all that much I mean it was a far cry from the
conservative South where they'd come from either way I'm not sure that they nailed the assignment remember like paty
fully still did like a hide your kids hide your wife we've got a killer like roaming the streets kind of thing so
like wasn't all pro Boulder I've always wondered a little if she went like off book in that interview like you can kind
of tell she's still pretty medicated like yeah and listen like people have all of the thoughts on both parents but
lots of thoughts on py at the time and here's what I'll say I don't think that that interview is a fair one to
read into too much like behavior on camera wise just because I mean you're talking a
week out from when their daughter was murdered I don't know that I could even sit up straight like at that point like
if if it were me and so it might be one of the first times that py was upright I
mean she even said that like in those first few days she was so out of it that JN and like her friends were literally
having to feed her and to bathe her help her go to the bathroom so demeanor like in my mind like throw this
out the window but I do think we need to talk about the substance of that interview words matter especially when
we're going to get into some of the statements like the early statements from them about what happened on
December 25th and December 26th now like I said there wasn't a lot of substance in what we got but in what we got there
were the first signs of cracks at least compared to what's an officer French's report from the 26th and detective AR's
report which technically she actually hadn't written up yet when they go on CNN actually writes up hers a week from
that on January 8th so there's also you know how much is lost in her memory in that time between writing it so were
there a lot of inconsistencies in the little that we did get no so the only one that really pops out is when py was
talking about seeing the letter and then going to John B's room to see if she was
there in some of the early reports there is a note that mentions her actually going and checking Jean B's room first
and then going down the stairs and finding the note but there are no follow-up questions like after this like interview
is over and despite what they seemingly told CNN like told the reporter CU at the time they're like yeah we are going
to go back to Boulder we're going to work with police like we're going to do anything we can to cooperate and help
find our daughter's killer but that doesn't actually happen Okay well why not I know so it's what eats people
alive no one can understand why they wouldn't just sit down with police and go through the facts that day
in the days leading up to it as well like the intimate details of their lives like there is so much that police just
don't know at this point and again I I will acknowledge I do see that that first day or two you know everyone's
still trying to figure out everything there but there's they did talk but there's this huge gap in what police
know about their lives from that and I get it like I shake them too and be like just like help them help you like even I
don't know if you remember poly class her story but her dad eventually speaks out about this and he's like I don't get
it like I did everything I could when my daughter was murdered I begged them to give me a polygraph so that they could
move Beyond me right but John will just tell you like till he is blue in the face that they were following the advice
of the lawyers that they had and why have these lawyers if you're not going to listen to them and by the way their
lawyer game has been upped by this point they're no longer just relying on Mike bam to give them some advice according
to John Mike connects him and py to a law firm that could handle more like criminal matters so the law firm is
called um Haden Morgan and Foreman who like by the way if you Google them like and you go to news like what pops up is
like interesting clientele um I was like oh okay but that's neither here nor there the point is that these new
lawyers are like the big guns they have big connection not just to the DA's office but to Colorado Politics as a
whole and so these lawyers pass and John each have their own by the way like they're each being looked at as a
suspect so they have to have their own lawyers their lawyers are basically like listen we know how this works the police
are narrowly focused in on you they are going to want to just like get you in a room and drill you until you break down
which is why you have a lawyer in the room with you but but you need to go into the room you need to be there you
need to be in the room and listen like I the lawyers always planned to be in the room but they were particular about
the conditions of getting in that room they wouldn't come to terms with police on on what that was like when I talked
to John he was like well they wanted us to come at like late at night and like we the their lawyers like they want you
to be tired they want you to be like they know we're not sleeping and they're setting you up for failure yeah and he's
like we offered to have them come in our home and they were like no only at the police station so they go back and forth
trying to like come to terms with the conditions of this interview and that doesn't happen like they don't agree to
something until April of 1997 that is when police get the first real opportunity to sit down and drill in and
then after that it would be another year before their next sit down that one didn't happen until June of 1998 and
then there is just one more in the year 2000 now in all of that time if it was a
media frenzy I mean in an era of tabloids Jean Benet reigned Supreme next in line only to a literal Almost Queen
Princess Diana like I don't know if you remember we talked about this being our origin story but it was all over all the
time you could not go to the grocery store everywhere and not see her face and it was all over the news even in a
time when like we weren't paying attention to news right and I think it like it gar so much attention because it
was this like Perfect Storm of Christmas time a beautiful child a rich family and
then I mean put the pageant stuff on top of all of that like there were not only
a plethora of images of Jean Benet like being sold to tabloids and newspapers and magazines because these
photographers had so much footage of her but the pictures they had of her were of
this little girl made to look like a young woman and people had a field day with it and even though there was plenty
of talk of people asking the questions of whether or not the pageantry put John Benet in the path of someone dangerous
which spoiler alert like yeah the conversations always kind of came back to the parents yeah but they made her do
those pageants which the family says is an inaccurate statement they're like no this is something she liked to do with
her mom like paty was a former Miss West Virginia but all of the tabloids were all about the family so like the family
was right in saying that they were out to get them yes but like which came first right like
it's a very Chicken and the Egg situation if they talked to the police and the police had cleared them would
there would there be the Tabloid that put them in the center of things or are they in the center of things it
definitely fed it like again I think that it started so ear like surprisingly early but yeah I think it definitely fed
the monster to be like they're not talking to police like oh they left Colorado and now they're in Georgia and
things don't get better like the more time that passed the more contentious things got not just between the Ramsay
and the police but also between the police and the DA's office like things are being leaked seemingly from Every
Witch Way I mean it was so bad that at one point her autopsy photos were leaked to the globe and those mother actually
plan to print those autopsy photos and it's like the police they had become convinced that the ramies were involved
and so it actually came out in a deposition at one point like years down the line that the police were giving
information to reporters to try and put external pressure on the ramsy hoping that they would crack like they couldn't
do the thing they wanted to do inside of the interrogation room so they were going to have the media do it so at this
point it sounds like police are relying on other details almost like not just we
don't like how the family is acting to support all these suspicions that they have
correct because like during this time like things are getting leaked like I said you you have the police department
things are coming out of the DA's office too the ramsy had their own team so like
who is leaking what like it is a messy messy game but let me actually give you a little bit of the lay of the land of
some of the stuff that we were learning in the time after Jean B's death I'm going to go into her autopsy I think
that's a big part of it but before I do that I think we just need to talk about some of the physical evidence at the
house some of the observations that were made because I think all of that like was informing police's opinion on the
situation very early on right so one of the big ones um one of the ones that the
ramsy say kind of like defines the case is that police just didn't like how they
were acting um Linda AR I'll talk about her probably a lot in this episode she was
the first detective there that day and she does this like one really Infamous interview with Good Morning America in
1999 and the interviewer asks her like how was John that morning and she just keeps saying cordial and she's like okay
but cordial what does that mean it's the only word she would say cordial cordial
so she didn't like how he was acting now John tells me he's like and told everyone like I was trying to keep my
wits about me like I don't like py was deeply upset like she was just in the room with her friend she's laying down
she's crying he's like I had to like go into aution like autopilot exactly which
which like I truly I understand a little bit I look at me and husband and we are
very different that way where I think Eric would be the one like in the chair crying laying on the floor and I'm going
to be like okay I've got to get the money I'm going to get this like I lining everything up to be like what can
I do to fix this situation I can't just sit here yeah John's a CEO of a company like I see him I see him going in that
way but the other thing that Linda talks about is that they're like in separate rooms the whole time so she just found
that strange and people have like weighed in over the years like put their own spin on it I don't like I don't know
that you could say one way or another if that means anything like I don't think people could say conclusively but she
just felt it was strange that like paty's in one room crying again JN is like over here in action mode but in
this giant house in a giant house but she I think she expected them to be like yeah a unit and comforting each other
but that's not what she saw that day which I think played into the beliefs that first day the other thing that gets
talked about a ton and that she really and I think officer FR and a lot of people there that day honed in on was
the fact that so JN had just been like freshly showered when uh like he had just gone out of the shower when P he
made that 911 call and so he he's fresh in the morning she has like fresh makeup
but she's also wearing the same clothes that she'd worn the night before so they
say it depends on who you talk to right like they thought it was really weird that at 5 something in the morning she's
got full hair and makeup but wearing the same clothes I I don't know what to make
of that I'll tell you like completely honestly I went to dinner with John ramsy and then interviewed him the next
day and I wore the exact same outfit like and not even intentionally I didn't realize it until later but like throwing
on the same thing to me is not a big deal everyone says oh well you know py was so into her image and like there's
no way she would have done that they were about to get on a flight to go to Michigan so maybe she was just like and
it was like the holidays like I would wear the same outfit um the makeup she says and she is
from the south she she was born in West Virginia they spent so much time in Atlanta she's like my mother drilled it
in me you do not leave the house like unless you're fully done up which I like I've met people like that too so but but
people will read in and be like she just never had the chance to go to bed that night and so like it was odd to the
people there that first morning now I also told you that First Responders they didn't notice any sign of forced entry
in their initial reports but there was a broken window in the basement which I don't get how that's just missed
um was not everyone did miss it I'm going to have to come back to that like when we get into people's like stories
and statements for now what we need to know is like the window was broken but it wasn't broken recently so there
wasn't glass all over and John had apparently broken it over the summer like he's like no that's why there's no
glass like I broke it when I got locked out of the house and they thought they had asked their housekeeper's husband or
something like that to fix it but there must have been some kind of confusion or
miscommunication the window didn't get fixed so I think they view it as like oh this is a you know I me it's the perfect
thing to like if someone were scoping out their house to say like here's a broken window you can easily get access
to the home but it wasn't something that was done necessarily by an intruder and
the other thing that they point to is there's also this hard shell suitcase that was supposed to have been right
under the window that they're thinking someone used to maybe get in or get out and then there
the note the ramsy to this point like more than the broken window they point to the
note as proof that Jean Benet was kidnapped they're basically like listen if it looks like a duck if it quacks
like a duck like it's probably a freaking duck like we have a ransom note we probably have a kidnapping but there
were things about this note that even really early on police were finding odd the first thing is like they end up
concluding that the note was written on paty's Note pad with a pen from inside the house like I guess John and py each
had like their own notebooks for phone messages or whatever but they determined that it was from P's one that the paper
came from and what's interesting is that the pad of paper and the pen were put back like like they were put away it
wasn't just like left out but they were like put back in different places now when they made this connection about it
being paty's notepad they also found out that there was a first attempt at writing the before the writer started
over so there is a page that starts out Mr and mrss and then there's like a line
like it's going to start Ramy but that's it like they call this um everyone calls
it the practice note but it just says Mr and Mrs R and then we know the final note is just addressed to Mr Ramsey
right now it's already a little sus that this thing was written with items inside
the house because I think what everyone starts thinking is like this person didn't come prepared like usually in
kidnapping cases you see them if they're going to leave a note that's like something they come with if you're going
to hold someone for ransom you should probably have the ransom note in is the thought and and if not when they look at
like the the sheer amount of words here two and a half pages I think I heard someone say it would take someone like
20 minutes to rate this thing they're like when would they have done that now the ramsy think that this person this
Intruder snuck into their house while they were at a Christmas dinner earlier that night was like sitting there laying
and wait for everyone to like go B go to bed and they said like oh we think it was written then which gives the person
like hours ample amount of time but it also like doesn't fit with a lot of like what we'll come to know if
the goal was to just like get her out of the house we know that she's found with
everything done to her inside the house so if you if you pre-wrote that note it like something about that doesn't add up
but then if you wrote the note afterwards that also doesn't make sense because why would you like hope that
there's a notebook and a pen readily available for you to and 20 minutes well and also like she's dead right like so
what was the point of the ransom note at for an intruder if they were going to leave her deceased in the basement and
Beyond like when the note was written the contents of the note were super weird to me so for starters it's like
really focused on John I don't know if like as you're reading it I know you've probably seen that not like bazillion
times like everything is about and his business and even his role in the business in the business and it's like
John make sure you get enough like sleep John make sure you do this John your daughter like which and and if it is
about JN in the business then like the you know the ramies have said there's like this sexual component to Jean B's
death that we're going to get into but like if it's about that then that part doesn't line up MH and then like I said
there's a lot of um in the note it mentions like make sure you get some sleep make sure you there's like this
weird sense of like like if you want her earlier just get the money earlier and we'll figure this out it's re yeah it's
really strange the way that it focuses on them and like again I don't know car is the right word but it's like it this
isn't it doesn't make sense like nothing about the notes makes sense and then there are all of these quote that when
people have like gone through and really like broken it down all of these quotes
from movies where kidnappings happened and so is this like is this a movie buff sure I mean surely someone's not like
going through and watching bunch of movies as they're writing this if they wrote this in the house in 20 minutes or
a couple hours whatever it is and finally no one knows what the sbtc is like there are theories out the wazo
about what it could be I've heard saved by the cross I've heard uh rumors that where uh John Ramsey was stationed in
the Navy in the Philippines that there was like some it's like some military faction acronym yeah which then they're
like oh is that foreign faction but like that's never been proven so people can have and honestly like again the stuff
people can come up with like is pretty wild lots of wild theories but in almost 30 years there is no conclusive proof
about what that is connected to and the other thing we don't know is this amount
of money it's so specific $118,000 not 100 not 150 and and like and split too in like different bills
and John was like I mean they were kind of loaded they could have asked for way more you could ask for and like I don't
know like I why 118 is so weird why not half a million a million dollar 10 million like or even lower at like a
round number of like $100,000 like the 18 it's 18 it's so weird throws me off so badly and it's
kind of almost like the sbtc thing where people are like oh it's a Bible verb like it's a proverb or something 118
like you can anything with like the number honestly 18 and it 118 people will like drill in on the thing that I
think most people believe or at least they think is like the most relevant information is that it comes out and and
John and py in the early days are like there's no significance to that number for us like we don't know what it is
Police end up finding out that John Ramsay's bonus uh that year for his company was
$118,000 that exact amount yeah and like some change like don't get me wrong but
like the lump sum the big number the weird $118,000 and he says yeah that it maybe
that's it he um the interesting thing is so I think what gets mixed up a lot like
for people is that they're like oh that was his Christmas bonus he got that in December like everyone must have known
it actually was issued to him he says in like January or February of 1996 so it had been the whole year but he said that
that bonus was like a line item on all of his pay stubs so if somebody were like going through documents in their
house like they would have seen that and I asked him I was like was there evidence of somebody who's like gone
through documents in your house and he said he says no but that doesn't mean that that didn't happen and it's kind of
like his best theory of if it's this number this might be how someone would have found that exact yeah specific
number the police would say well no one need to find it someone in your home probably yeah yeah so they have all this
weird stuff in the note and then they start getting handwriting samples from people in the family trying to find out
who wrote this they got a few actually from paty and everyone is ruled out except
py now' be very clear like they don't say it was her handwriting they just say that she can't be excluded or they can't
rule her out which is like a very important distinction well and the language itself felt like her if I'm
remembering like her interviews right like it's kind of Flowery over the top like they linked words like hence
and when I said that I was likeo that's a word like that's stuff that she would say though right not words like she
invented like lots of people know those words but there is this like strange juxtaposition in the writing where some
of the words are actually like spelled wrong and then you have words like atache with like the little like Mark
little accent over it yeah yeah and they're so they're like oh someone must have like spelled other words wrong
intentionally which kind of fed into this idea of oh this this this Ransom note isn't real like it was some kind of
staging of some sort but like fun fact like I also spelled the word atache wrong when I was wrting like this story
out so like I would be floored if you hadn't knowing you I was just going to say like so but I also like I know words
that are outside of my normal vocabulary and then like I can't there are some basic words I I can't spell right like
it's just not be like fooling anyone and I would also say that like you would be
able to tell the difference if you and I wrote complet like the same things because we would use completely
different words yeah to get back to it though um there are a lot of strange things about the not but there are other
random things around the house that if you really want to go down this Rabbit Hole like there's a baseball bat outside
um there's a rope in another bedroom of the house but the important thing is like none of it is forensically linked
to the crime at least not or hasn't been to the public so for the sake of keeping
people with me like we still got a lot a lot of room here like a lot of uh episode to go I want to move to the
autopsy so when jeanan is found she had what is described as a Gro likee device tied around her neck using white like
rope or cord or some kind of like substance and then the broken off handle of a paintbrush now Gat Gro whatever like
that is the word that gets used all the time it's the only reason I know what that is it's like synonymous with this
case but it actually isn't a GTH that got used I don't know if it matters but it feels like with
this case the devil is in the details so for accuracy's sake what they're act like at least when I was like looking it
up a garat is like some kind of like string cord rope chain whatever and then like two like handles on the end what
was actually used in John benet's case was a white cord that was tied around her neck it was fastened in the back and
it was fastened to that broken end of the paintbrush and I think the thinking was that or if
people are still trying to call it a gat is that maybe you could like twist the paintbrush and then that would tighten
it but investigators said that it was tied more like a noose than it was any kind of garat and particularly they've
made note that the knots weren't especially complicated now the brush itself is from inside the house like a
lot of the other stuff we're finding and we find out that it came came from paty's artart Supply so she had been
taking painting classes at the time at the local University so she had this little like carrier bucket thing full of
stuff like that now what wasn't obvious in the Ramsay house that morning that she was found but what would become
clear when her autopsy was done is that along with having this cord around her neck she also had suffered severe blunt
force trauma to her head like they're quite literally when you see the picture there's like a chunk of her skull that
is like caved in and then this like 8 in crack across her skull as well so I was
never really clear like which one of these things was her cause of death though um yeah so the autopsy report
says it was just a combination do do they know which one was first I don't know so I think like first
you need to know that the Rope around her neck is like if you see the pictures that got
released it's like embedded in there like I mean looks like somebody truly tied it so tight but it actually wasn't
tied really tight so like just like the bindings I mentioned that were loose on her wrist the cord I think initially
around her neck probably was as well because in the autopsy report there is a note that even though she's got the
external wounds there is no internal damage to her neck which you you would see if there was like severe
strangulation if that makes sense so it's possible that maybe her body like got swollen after death or like as she
was dying like and it made it look so much tighter but she was definitely alive when it happened yes so yes so she
definitely did get choked in some way because we have external signs of her being choked like so we've got abrasions
we've got peal hemorr on her neck and her eyes and her face which all that makes sense but I still don't I'm not
seeing what came first same like really the only two options are either she was being lightly choked but again the
choking was not the thing that was going to kill her because we don't see those internal injuries she was being lightly
choked and she either still has the cord around her neck or it's taken off and then she's hit and then it's put back on
or it's like I said it's just left on or she's hitting the head and then it is put on and if she's swelling that
caused the choking those those are really are only two options either way the hit in the head
was so severe that even the light choking whether it was someone doing it or just the cord being on it contributed
to her death in conjunction with the head wound so there seems to be a consensus from a a number of people that
the asphixiation happened like 45 minutes after after the hit and it really is like authorities who believe
this on the Ramsay Camp um they have this investigator Lou Smith who really reaches a different conclusion he thinks
she was hit in the head after she was choked and that the choking was done as part of a sexual act now I I mentioned
this briefly but when JN was bringing Jean banet upstairs like when he first found her in the basement there was some
of that like white cord same stuff that's around her neck is like around her wrist or like her hand just one of
them and he says that they like or they were like bound together but like I think it's only left on one and it's
pretty loose like the knots themselves were loose like a lot of people whove looked at this like it wouldn't have
actually like kept her hands together right so again the people who look at this like a staging they'll say this is
more proof that it wasn't to actually restrain her this was something done after the fact um but could the knots
have gotten loose another way we look at a scene that we know is so severely contaminated she wasn't left in the
place that she was found I don't know so she also had a piece of tape that was over her mouth and when John found her
he had actually ripped that off and he leaves it in the basement he brings her upstairs and it's left in the basement
along with the white blanket that was covering her and then one of the things that I never knew in this case was that
along with the white blanket there was a Barbie night gown and I don't know what
it means um like by all accounts it's not what she was wearing that evening it doesn't
seem like it was soil nobody NOS if it's like clean dirty like was it did they go
up to her room to get like where was it was it just like shuffled in maybe with the blanket that they brought down like
nobody knows it's just kind of this weird piece that I can't quite make sense of but there's a a Barbie uh night
gown down there too so the night gown I already said wasn't what she was wearing
what she was wearing was a white shirt with a silver star and she had worn that shirt to a Christmas dinner that they
went to the before that's where they were before they all came home and went to bed she was also wearing white Long
John pants and under those she was wearing a pair of underwear and this is like such a weird part of the case the
underwear that she was wearing was a size 12 which for like my non-kid people usually like the general rule is like
you can usually go size by age like obviously every kid's different but pretty close like May is six she wears
an eight yeah and and J was like a pretty average like height wa for her age so like a 6-year-old to be in 12
underwear they were the the they even said like when they when they were like taking off her clothes and doing her
autopsy like they were huge on her yeah and the other interesting thing is that her long johs and her underwear were
both stained with urine mostly on the front of the garments which indicates to me that she was probably laying face
down when her bladder was empty cuz I think it's especially important when you think about the fact that that cord was
tied around her neck was tied in the back did they find urine anywhere else in the house like if she was laying down
and I've seen the pictures of the underwear and the pants I mean they're saturated if she's laying down empties
her bladder that much to just like drench her clothes it should be somewhere there should be a little
puddle somewhere theoretically yes but I can't say for sure based on the stuff that we have I told you I mean a lot of
the stuff that we have is because stuff got leaked not because it doesn't like there isn't other stuff that like exists
I can tell you that the sheets that were on her bed were not stained there is some conjecture that maybe there was a
possible urine stain on the carpet outside of the wine Celler room that she's actually found in but I can't
source that to actual police documents I don't know if that's true and of course
Boulder Police Department the prosecutor's office like they wouldn't talk to us for this episode so so all in
all I don't actually know but it feels like we should be able to determine where in the house that happened and the
where that happened feels really important like if we can't find where that means that someone cleaned it up
right which adds like this whole other element to this all wrting really confusing case now the other things that
get discovered that are of Interest are the following in her autopsy so there was vaginal trauma but not from
penetration like there it was more like like uh an irritant or like the skin cells and what they found is I believe
there were traces of the actual the broken paintbrush what they determined is that that paintbrush had been
inserted interestingly though there's like that that they know happened like at the time of her death but the autopsy
also notes some wounds or some trauma that is more chronic and chronic doesn't mean it's happening for a very very very
long time over and over chronic means before like that so there's at least some evidence that 7 to 10 days before
her death something else happened but you can't say what like they like and anyone who tries to say
what like we we we do not know but there is some vaginal trauma to this young girl that happened 7 to 10 days before
her death so they're not sure if she was abused no one can say that like definitively definitively there have
been a number of experts who came in like the um when Boulder Police had this case they brought in a number I think it
was like five or six experts that said that based on what they saw from the autopsy report like they would
categorize that as abuse what we also find out in all this time it's not necessarily the autopsy but we find out
that Jean Benet had been having issues with soiling herself so she was I mean py still had like pull-ups in the house
she was still wetting the bed even soiling the bed and py would say like listen like that's
this happens kids have accidents she said that um her stepdaughter John one of John's from his previous marriage um
was did the same thing till she was like eight apparently Burke had the same things so paty was like the it's just
kids um but people who do want to say that she was abused will point to this as like more evidence of that but no
like there there is no definitive proof that she was being sexually abused for for like in the time leading
up to it like there's but there clearly something happened like like in the 7 to
10 days and this but we don't know what that is like it it's so much of this case you don't we will never know what
was happening in that house on that night or the days before or you know John was doing so many things outside of
the home too I also want to make it clear that if there was abuse which I think there's evidence of and it's
something that I talked to John about actually in our interview I was like it's I mean the proof is like it feels
like the proof is there like but that doesn't mean it has to be a family that's like right she came into contact
with so many people so I know I just like went on and on and on but the short answer is no there's no like proof she
was abused but a lot of expert who believe she had been to go back to the evidence so there
are some fibers that are found as well um they're found on the sticky side of the tape that was on her mouth they're
um some that are found like in the ligature like knots that we've got you know I don't know if was her her hands
or her neck but there's some found in the ligature and some that were on the white blanket as well and they are
consistent the police say with a jack that py was wearing the night of the 25th additionally there is one mention
of some black fibers that were found in her underwear that they say were consistent with a wool sweater of John's
but this is a super important caveat a this is only thrown out in paty's 2000 interview and we know like like the
person interviewing her says this we know that you can straight up lie in right so I don't know if this actually
is true cuz I like it's not anywhere else as fact I don't know if like the fibers were actually in the underwear I
don't know if if they were if they actually got tied to JN I have no idea and the family lawyer actually makes
note later on a different one he says that like just saying those things skews the picture because he's like a when you
talk about the coat fibers the shirt fibers um he's like how many other things did you try and test to match it
first of all and you're not even talking about all the other fibers that were found that aren't tied to anything there
weren't only these like two or three fibers there could be a lot in there and also people do laundry yeah and he's
like so to to just say those couple of things really skews the record as he says so you got a lot of the physical
evidence but like the thing I think everyone wants to talk about when we talk about this case there is foreign
DNA exactly we've got DNA under her nails her right and her left in her underwear and on the cord around her
neck we know John B was the main contributor in all of it in 1997 there was an indication of an unknown
contributor but the testing was super basic back then in '97 yeah it was so basic that what I can tell from like
what I've seen is that we're dealing with like n a that is off out of like multiple markers so they were like far
from a real profile that we could do anything with back then but one of the things that really frustrated the family
and made them feel like this was targeted against them is that no one was sharing that they were ruled out from
that in those early days which seems pretty significant so everyone's looking for an excuse of like it almost feels
like they were trying to like write it off like how can it still be them and not be this and instead of just being
like Oh like was there someone else in the house like all put your theory aside like the question is was there someone
else in the house and I think that's the question everyone should be asking and then the final thing that we have as far
as evidence at least that I'm going to get into is the pineapple I was waiting for you to get to the pineapple this the
pineapple so the pineapple there are remnants of pineapple found in her stomach if you know you know if you
don't that's why you have me but to understand why the pineapple becomes important like or why it's a big deal we
have to go backward a little bit so now that you have the physical evidence like
the stuff that we're working with most of which was getting again I just want to remind you getting leaked like little
bit by little bit to the public over weeks and months all during the time when the Rams
are lawyered up I want to go into the actual statements that we get so the stuff that police say that they were
told on December 26th the statements given to authorities by John and Pat y in the months after that fateful day and
even in the years that followed so there are two reports that have been leaked from First Responders
that I found one is from officer French he's the first guy that shows up at the house that morning and the other is from
detective Linda AR let's start with French since he was the first one who was there that day and so actually I
have if you wouldn't mind just like reading I think it's the report says I spoke with Mr and M
Ramsey while Burke continued to sleep Miss Ramsey told me that she had gone into John's room at about 5:45 hours to
wake her in preparation for a short family trip the family was to take later that day she found Jean B's room empty
and then discovered the note as she walked down the stairs she immediately called
police okay so then just go to the so there's like there's section I'm making it tight for every they told me they had
spent Christmas night with the redacted and that they arrived home at 2200 hours
Mr Ramsey said that Jean banet and Burke's bedrooms are separate and are located on the second floor of the
three-story house with the master bedroom on the top floor Jean Ban's bedroom has an access door to the second
floor porch which was locked and undamaged okay so if you wouldn't mind now I've got Linda
Arts okay Linda says officer French told me that when he arrived he met with paty
Ramsey Jean benet's mother paty was very upset and distraught and it was difficult for officer French to obtain
information from her officer French also spoke with John Ramsey Jean benet's father officer French learned that the
Ramsey family had been at a friend's house on the late afternoon and evening of December 25th Jean B and her brother
Burke went to bed shortly after the family returned home John Ramsay had read to Jean banet after she'd gone to
bed and before she went to sleep Jean Benet had last been seen wearing a red red turtleneck and white long underwear
paty woke up this morning and discovered the suspected Ransom note at the bottom
of the spiral staircase paty originally thought that the note may have been left
by the housekeeper officer French has been told that the Ramsey family had been planning to leave early this
morning from Michigan the Ramsey family has a home in upper Michigan after py discovered the note she went to Jean
bonet's bedroom paty discovered Jean Benet was missing okay so then go to the next part
where she talks about actually being a to speak with py I did ask py a few questions and was able to receive some
information the following is information I received from py py has gotten up on the morning of December 26th 1996 and
had gone downstairs from her bedroom to the kitchen py used the back I.E West stairway the back stairway consists of a
spiral staircase leading from just outside John benet's bedroom to the northwest corner of the first floor of
the house at the bottom of the spiral staircase py discovered a three-page handwritten note the note had been
written on legal pad siiz paper py said she originally thought the note might have been left by her housekeeper after
py looked at the note and read it she ran to Jean B's bedroom Jean banet was missing okay so it keeps going after
that just basically like repeating a lot of the stuff that we already know like they had an alarm but they didn't set
the alarm like kind of talks about their housekeeper a little bit who she had a key early on when Jean ban was still
just like a missing person police were asking about anyone who like had access to the house and then if you want to
keep going so Linda talks to John okay John Ramsey told me that he and his family had been at a dinner party held
at the redacted home on the afternoon and evening of December 25th 1996 John py Burke and
John Benet had returned home at approximately 2200 hours John told me that paty and Burke immediately went to
bed John had read a book to Jean banet tucked her into bed then John went to bed John said he went to bed at
approximately 2230 hours for anyone who whose mind doesn't work like mine 10 and
10:30 yeah I don't work in military time like I every time I'd be like backwards from
24 anyways so it keeps going I mean again for anyone who's like as deeply obsessed as I am like I'll have all this
info in the show notes so you can go like read the full thing for yourself but for now you have what you need to
know so that's what police have from the day of about like them getting home going to bed finding the note there's a
bunch more that they talk about like I don't want to give you the impression that the Ramsey only said like three
words to them like they answered all the questions that they had day of but police were expressly told to treat them
like victims in the early days not like suspects now you know after this Mike bam steps in tells John like listen I
want to help you out I want to put someone like in place because like you really need representation in a criminal
matter like this and you know he's like Jesus Mike bham Jesus Take the Wheel like go ahead
now we know that they don't sit down for a formal interview they leave for Atlanta and then they did that disaster
of an interview on CNN which if Jon's Insider Source was wrong about police like initially looking at them like they
definitely were now right because some of the stuff in that interview conflicted with the little information
that police already knew and again why even talk to CN then in the first place I don't get it to protect Boulder right
# protect Boulder and which is like when I'm sat down with John as soon as he told me that I was like but that's weird
right and he's like yeah no it's definitely weird but to protect Boulder I don't know anyway so you heard some of
the clips like they don't go into a ton of detail but they do say a couple of things that stick out and I thought that
maybe we could just like read like read it a little bit so um I'll just ask the interview questions and and I'll do
John's lines and if you want to do py sure Mrs ramsy you found the note was it a handwritten note three pages I didn't
I couldn't read the whole thing I had just gotten up we were on our it was the day after Christmas and we were going to
go visiting and it was quite early in the morning and I got dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some
coffee and we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas and I always come down
that staircase and I'm usually the first one down and the note was lying across the three pages across the Run of one of
the stair trads and it was kind of dimly lit it was just very early in the morning and I started to read it and it
was addressed to John it said Mr Ramsay and it said we have your daughter and I you know it just was it just wasn't
registering and I I may have gotten through another sentence I can't we have your daughter and I don't know if I got
any further than that and I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door and she was not in her bed and I
screamed for John John you subsequently read the note was there anything in there that struck you in any sense and
then John says well no I mean I read it very fast I was out of my mind and it said don't call the police you know that
type of thing and I told py call the police immediately and I think I ran through the house a bit we went to check
our son checked our son's room sometimes she sleeps in there and we just were we
were just frantic and then there's another section that I have here that I just want to read I'll read again for
John and you read for paty to those of you who may want to ask let me address it very directly I did not kill my
daughter John B there have also been innuendos that she has been or was sexually molested I can tell you that
those were the most hurtful innuendos to us as a family they are totally false John Benet and I had a very close
relationship I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life I'm appalled that anyone would think that John or I would
be involved in such a hi heinous crime but let me assure that I did not kill Jean Benet it did not have anything to
do with this I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul we feel like there are at least two people on the
face of this Earth that know who did this and that is the Killer and someone that that person may have confided in
the big thing that people took away from this were a couple of things one py says
that she only read the first line of the letter which is hard to understand because in the 911 call she tells the
operator how it is signed at the very end of the letter s sptc Victory and in one of the first reports she says that
she was nervous like remember when she was like standing at the window she was nervous about like the car pulling up
and being marked because the letter had said not to call the police but it doesn't quite make sense how she would
have known that if she only read the first like line or two she also talks about screaming for John and that that's
new didn't she say she called the police immediately or even in one version didn't she say she saw Jean B was not in
her bed before she even like saw the letter so yeah so that's what's in the report but I will say that when
detective arm was kind of I if you remember like that you read it in one of them she's kind of rehashing what French
told her it looks like in that version she saw the note first so some of the first reports might like something might
be getting Lost in Translation and we talked about like you know there's time in between there's the ramies basically
say like you know there's so much in the initial reports that are just like straight up wrong like everyone's
misremembering or saw things differently or heard things differently or like misinterpreted stuff so the other thing
that is interesting about what we learned from that little bit from CNN is that there is no excuse for the
pineapple that we know about everything they say is they like get home go to bed is no like snack
later and gred this is just like a a tidbit that we're getting but paty goes to bed Burke goes to bed Jong takes
Janet up reads to her puts her to bed all within like a half an hour yeah and we got like in some of that from the
early reports but it's we don't understand when that would have happened because they don't in in the time when
they're making their first statement they don't say like oh we got home and then this happened and so like there
it's just kind of left is a little bit of a mystery all of that to say that after they do this CNN thing police have
their antenna up and they really want to sit down with them once they come back there's something weird that
happens before they go back to Boulder cuz they will go back to Boulder like even though they never set foot in that
house again they have to go back so let me back up for a second remember how I told you that John's company gave them a
plane to use to go back to Atlanta yeah like the company plane okay yeah so I don't know who exactly was on it I don't
have the Manifest but in a 1998 interview with authorities paty says that there is some kind of quote unquote
like scuttlebutt confusion or something around Fleet white so apparently he was planning to get on the plane back but he
didn't and what she said I think I have like her I think it's important to read what she said paty says quote I picked
up on something that fleet was not acting right and they were going to keep him from going on the private plane back
to Atlanta well so I don't know what happened something happens he's not on the plane with the family to Atlanta but
I know he makes his way out to Atlanta somehow and then it sounds like he loses his ever loving mind something
happens but I like I I don't know what okay so Fleet and his wife are staying with John's brother Jeff it seems like
and according to py Fleet kind of flips out on Jeff like he at one point like grabs his collar gets upset about
something and then Jeff calls over to where John and passy are staying and they're like he's like fleet's coming do
you have a gun and py says that her and Burke and her mom like go to the basement they're like trying to stay
quiet and John and paty's dad go handle this thing upstairs handle what though I
don't I don't I'm not following what's happening me freaking either so everyone apparently comes out of this
fine I mean like physically I know whatever altercation they had like is is over with but I don't know what
happened whatever it was about begins to fracture the friendship between the whites and the ramies and has no one
asked John about this of course they have I asked John about this did I asked him and I'm telling you this is what I'm
saying to people go watch like in other places I've heard John say that fleet was upset that they did the CNN thing
but in an interview John eventually does in 1998 with L Smith he says that fleet
was the one who pushed him to do the CNN thing like the one who insisted on it he's the one who told him to go and like
protect Boulder well he no he doesn't say that in 1998 like that was something he said to me but what he says is that
Fleet told them to do it because of what the media was saying about them that they needed to defend themselves the
protect Boulder thing was again new to me I don't know what it means but defend themselves protect Boulder either way
Jon kind of chalks up whatever this meltdown is to trauma like Fleet obviously knew the family super well
they were at his house for Christmas dinner for goodness sakes he and his wife were called over by paty that
morning when they knew John B was missing it was traumatic for everyone and John says that Fleet just isn't cool
under pressure and fleet was one of the people who was like down there when he found her but that still doesn't answer
my question like what was he saying when he was flipping out so police do ask her
right like because she was there but when she's asked by police about this she the her only explanation cuz she
says she doesn't know but she just says I wasn't having that conversation like what I know and like
this this is a little hard for me to understand because I'm like but you're part of th this like family like
something is happening yeah and I it's hard for me to understand like you you're running to the basement staying
quiet and that like you ask no follow-up questions like after you came out of the
basement just like it's fine move on and like on one hand I'm like I don't buy it
for a second because that that's not how I would respond on the other I have seen
like more and more of I don't know the family Dynamic like truly know the family Dynamic I think there's like a
world that you and I grew up in where I we saw a lot of like um sub it's I'm like what are all the right words
submissive isn't necessarily the right like exact word but like the dad husbands they're handling it yeah
they're handling it and we don't need to worry about it and so we don't ask any questions so seemingly that could be
that could be what happened here because she's like that is not a conversation I
had and what does John say about this though like the guy who was actually in the conversation the conversation the
conversation with you Lui doesn't really ask him about the altercation or at least not what what became part of like
the transcript I tried to ask him but John says he doesn't remember he doesn't remember what the
exchange what what what words were said he also doesn't remember what Fleet flipped out about at the next
altercation they have when they get back to Boulder I'm sorry what is happening and how did
I not know any of this I know so like the media that we got served really has had its own take right everyone just
kind of talks about the things that fit their Theory the the police were doing it the da was doing it the ramsy do it
and I get it like I mean truly how far in are we right now like you literally can't talk about everything in this case
unless you had a 400 part minies even like this episode I don't feel like it's really going to cover it uh paging
deia the crime junkies need CRI yeah this the next season of counterclock is drama seriously though I told you I'm
trying to go a layer deeper I'm trying to show everyone that like to get to the bottom of who it is so much more
complicated than you think it is there's like so much more than I think people think that they know and truly like this
is not the end of the story but here is the main takeaway from today I don't think anyone should have a strong
opinion any way until you consume all of it m and that is really hard to do so like I again as we're going through this
keep an open mind even our episode won't be the end all Beall but I'll get back to the facts so
they come back to Boulder this is after the funeral I don't know who travels with who Priscilla and Fleet might even
leave early there's like this talk about how they didn't like how they were treated by everyone at Atlanta like they
were expecting them to act like things were fine or everything was just too formal like they were
grieving I don't know but eventually everyone goes back to Boulder oh um sorry just wait one more thing so um
it's a weird Fleet thing so before we go back to Boulder so when paty was telling
authorities about this Fleet altercation she said something that set off like truly like fire alarms in my head on
November 15th 2002 someone brutally attacked 61-year-old Nathaniel Jones outside of his home within days
investigators arrested five teenage boys who all confessed to the crime and one star witness sealed their faith but for
the past two decades those convicted still deny their involvement and now the key witness has recanted their testimony
in a case where fact and fiction are difficult to separate what story will you believe listen to counterclock
available now wherever you listen to podcasts okay so this is after flea is kept from getting on the plane but
before he flips out and P is like hiding in the basement or whatever so py says that when they're in Atlanta she sort of
remembers Priscilla white who fleet's wife standing in her mom's living room saying something like no and I actually
not something like I I think I have the quote she remember her saying something like well I know what's going on if you
would give me a few minutes of your time I could let you in on some things and py turns to her and she says
Priscilla how can you know so much I'm the mother of this child and I know nothing the person asking her or
interviewing her when she's like talking about this asks her what she was talking
about and paty's like I don't have a clue like you know I really wish I would have taken her up on the offer to like
see what she knew but but what we still have time here what did Priscilla know I don't know man we don't know our team
tried to reach out to the whites like nothing back maybe they would say that like they never even said that maybe
they would say that whatever they said was taken out of context maybe they would say what JN says and nobody
remembers and surely police talk to them at some point though right yeah oh yeah
and from everything that's been reported the whites were super Cooperative they wanted to help in any way that they
could you could help by telling us what you were saying to them when you were we're freaking out that seems like a
really good place to start I know and I like it had to have gotten asked and maybe there is a very vanilla answer but
Boulder P has been super tight lipped on the whites or honestly pretty much any other people that they interviewed who
weren't the Ramsay all the stuff that gets leaked are about the Ramsay everything has a slant like I mean it
seriously no matter what side you take things are slanted and I feel like I'm dealing like I have a thousand puzzle
pieces that I'm like trying to put together and I feel like I'm still missing like 30,000 like no matter how
much is with this case like we do not have all the information but I do think that part of
the reason that py never went back and like got the answers from Priscilla that we would want or like I might go and get
is because of this Rift that forms between the families because according to paty two more things happen and after
that I don't think they ever speak again so Priscilla says this thing fleet has this like meltdown they all go back to
Boulder and it's strange because py says this next thing she's like oh I wasn't really privy to it it's kind of like the
same thing I wasn't really privy to this but she is there when it happens it's not like she's even removed like she was
in the basement before so her and John are meeting with their priest father wall and they're at the church and the
three of them she says are like praying and Fleet white like bursts into the office eyes wide he gets on his knees
apparently has this business card and he's like literally like hanging over John and he's like you hang on again
I've got to get this right you know what this is John you know what this means John you know what I'm going to have to
do with this John I'm going to have to handle this my way John and py says he like keeps going on
and on and and like she's asking Fleet like what what it is that's in his hand and he hands her this business card and
it's for someone like a joury jist or she says like some journalist or something and there's a note on the back
she said she can't recall word for word what the note is but she says it's something to the effect of quote this is
her her quote in the interview Mr y there's been some question as to whether it was you or John Ramsey Who removed
the tape from John B's mouth you know and about the sequence of the basement Discovery because we had been talking
about this wait they've been talking about the basement discovery I don't know and like who had and when exactly I
don't know they don't ask her like she just kind of keeps going and they don't Circle back to this and she says that
Fleet basically says they're after him and his family now and that he's going to have to handle this his way like I
said so she says he's like manic at this point and then the story just kind of Fizzles like it's not clear how it
deescalate I know father R like jumps in at some point but I don't know how it ends I don't know what was said I don't
know what journalist it was like who gave the card who's asking these questions or like if that even was the
question well calling all Boulder journalists who gave a card to Fleet white the crime junkies kind of want to
know some things I have a laundry list of people that I want to talk to like any of them are welcome to hit me up
anytime after this episode so that was the one thing I told you there were two things so paty says that Fleet tries to
get FaceTime with them one more time so by this point when the ramies go back to
Boulder they kind of like hop around but they end up like settling in and moving
in with some of their friends the Steines who weirdly like John called acquaintances before all of this but I
don't know man like trauma bonding is real so like they become obviously much closer but paty says that Fleet goes to
Glenn Stein's office at Colorado University and demands to see the Ramsay again I don't know what's said I don't
know how it Fizzles de escalates whatever but like that's that and I want to be clear no one in the white family
was ever considered suspects by any Department by all accounts they've cooperated fully with the investigation
and they have even been staunch critics of how the case was handled and have they've actually fought legal battles
trying to get documents like release that they feel would further the case or would bring more light to the case
but for now in our story and with the ramies the whites are out the Steines are in they're the new besties and it's
interesting because it turns out what we learn when John and py finally do sit down with police in April 1997 and then
again in June of 98 and then more 2000 is that the Steines they may have been some of the last people to actually see
John Benet before she died we're like eight hours into this episode um do you want to finally get into more details
about like the days leading up to the 26th I'm going to I know please you need backstory no I know I I'm I'm loving all
of it it's so much so I'm going to start with the 23rd on December 23rd the ramsy hosted a
Christmas party with like all of their friends even like family members of these friends who were like in town
visiting so you got the whites we have the feres the Steines the barn Hills like all these kids it's is Big to do
they hire a Santa to make an appearance the kids like are decorating gingerbread
houses everything was Merry and bright at least we assume but there is one weird thing that happens that night on
the 23rd from the same house where 911 will be called in less than 72 hours someone
dials 911 on the 23rd on the 23rd according to an LA Times article the call was placed from the Rams at
6:48 p.m. but it was like a hang-up call dispatchers tried to call back a few minutes later nobody answered so then
police sent an officer to the house what happened great question I don't know the
officer who was dispatched never filed a report now I have heard that it was Fleet white who made that call and
there's like a number of like explanations around like going around like oh he was trying to like dial his
mom is said to have been in the hospital at the time he was trying to like call and get some medication for her and Mis
dialed or something like that I asked John specifically about it and he's again like does not remember he says so
file that whole thing under like WTF it's just like it's weird and it's one of those we talk about this all the time
like is it a coincidence that someone in that house calls 911 and then this happens or like are there no
coincidences right I don't know so the 24th nothing super notable happens they go to church they go out dinner they eat
this place called pasta Jays John knows the owner and then they go around and look at Christmas lights paty thinks
that maybe they might have gone to the whites at some point like they were by there they might have like stopped by
for a little bit but no big deal they all go home go to bed and then everyone wakes up the 25th on Christmas day like
the kids like any kids on Christmas day they wake up first they like go and get the parents we want to open presents
John B got a bike and this like life-size twin doll thing and Burk out a Nintendo 64 hello 1996
right um and they eat this big breakfast as a family that they make and then in the middle of the day everyone kind of
does their own thing so they were planning to leave early the next morning this would have been like the 26 right
yeah so they're planning to leave the 26 to go to charoy Michigan to spend Christmas with John's older kids from
another marriage they were planning on flying private so John was like going to go he's going to check on the plane make
sure everything's ready where's charoy uh so Michigan so for my for my Mitten people if you're
I think it's like here okay for my crime junkie people do you remember um the episode we did on North Fox
island of course remember the whole like trafficking ring like Father Sheldon whatever um so North Fox Island is like
Char is like the main little town that's like the closest yeah of like the like a
bay so now it's crime juning context that's that's where Char way is so it's not like on an it's on the mainland but
like it's still pretty hard to get to so like hence the private plane right so he's going to check the plane paty's
like finishing packing she's wrapping some gifts for all the kids to open in Michigan some neighborhood kids come
over at some point to play with Jean banet and Burke and everything's going well like in the evening they get ready
to go to the wh's house for a Christmas dinner paty wants her and John banet to match like black pants red shirt John B
is not into it she wants to wear this like sh shirt with a silver star six-year-old wins like if you have a
six-year-old that is so true yeah um and so they go to the whites they have crab
like that's really like the only like we know they eat crab for dinner so like it's interesting because not much has
been leaked about this party like I haven't there's no pictures I don't know what happens and like it's not a huge
party from my understanding it's like their family Christmas dinner that they had invited the ramies to like the year
before and then this year so it just became kind of this little tradition but it seems small and intimate ish so the
goes to his dinner then they leave but they make some stops first paty had gotten some gift baskets for other
friends so they go to the home of the Walkers first they drop off the gift basket py just like runs in while the
rest of the family stays in the car then they go to the Stein what I was talking
about they drop off a gift there paty goes in for like 10 to 15 minutes she can't really remember if Burke went in
with her but like he might have because he has a friend or the Steins have a kid
that's like his age so like it would make sense if he did John doesn't remember for sure who went in or not like nobody
remembers if if dominated they don't think so but whatever nothing notable they had one more shop they were
supposed to make another gift basket but it was getting late they had to get up early in the morning so they decided to
just go home now it's just a couple minute drive to their house from the Steins and when they get there they say
that John banet was already like zonked out so as they're giving these like longer statements to police this is
again where we get like no she was never awake and John read a story to her like
she was asleep is what they say John had to carry her up to her room he put her in the bed he took off her coat took off
her shoes um and then py took over from there and she said she changed her out of her pants like just put those long
johns on and the whole time she's like J was so tired that she didn't even wake up at all which I like I've heard people
like Rumble about yeah but I mean this literally happened to me yesterday May fell asleep in the car Justin fully
unbuckled her out of her seat carried her in laid her on her bed and she slept for another hour I fully like yeah
changed Josie the other day and she was like zoned so like especially you come from like a party with friends and stuff
like like kids can get it snaps them yeah but when does the big like size 12 underwear get put on her and all of this
I don't know it is so weird the underwear is like a big thing I can't explain because it seems like the
underwear was originally bought for another family member like a young girl in the family who would have been like a
size 12 I've heard that maybe it was wrapped up like as a gift to take with them like as a present in the basement
somewhere but then like oh maybe John B decided she wanted them there's never like a good clear answer on why she's
wearing them where they came from where they came from when they got on her any of that MH so
again question mark question mark so py put JN B down JN is downstairs with Berke cuz I guess he still wanted to
play a little bit he had this toy or something that he wanted to like put together dad was helping him with that
for a little while py finishes up some last minute things then she goes to bed she says she does her normal probably
does her normal routine like brush her teeth wash her face whatever and then when John went to bed he said she's
already there that she you know I don't know that she necessarily asleep but he's like we don't like have an
interaction she's down and I read for a little bit and then I fall asleep and then we didn't wake up until the morning
so the big differences here now are that John B is asleep when they get home whereas before we see an early reports
that she was awake that John read to her that's not the case anymore and the ramsy say and I've said this before like
everyone the day of misunderstood them they wrote their reports wrong that John didn't read Deon Benet that he read when
he went to bed um and again people would be like so everyone who wrote a report got it wrong and they say like I don't
know if information was flowing from one person to another right I was going to say but there's like a lot of like
transcription and using reports as references that may have that might have been happening yes they say they've
always been consistent that's not the case they don't know where they got that from now the next
morning JN is the first one up but like before the alarm arm he took a shower paty wakes up then while he's like in
the shower she throws on the same clothes we talked about this from the night before she puts on her makeup does
her hair and then she goes downstairs where she finds the note and then when she finds the note she calls for John
Burke is asleep the whole time and at some point John checked on him to make sure that he was there and okay but then
they they again leave him to sleep till they knew what to do so you already know
they call police even though the note says in the statement do not call police John tells her to call the scene isn't
preserved in any way and a little after 1:00 in the afternoon John finds John Benet in the wine seller where
presumably she had been all along what always baffles me is how had no one looked in this room this wine
seller like the whole day there were so many people in that house and they were everywhere except for Jan's room but
this is one of like the great Mysteries and it's potential another example of Murphy's Law or like Maybe not maybe
this is something that just doesn't make sense I don't know so officer French admits that when he went and looked
around the house like he saw that door but he saw that it was latch and he I don't know if it's cuz the latch was
high or like what about it that he was like oh this wouldn't make sense for a little girl to go through or something
he he just doesn't even open it and look which is just like bananas to me yeah now I've heard Fleet white say that he
even went down to the basement at some point that day and looked around he even o he opened the door so more than French
did he actually opened the door to the room that they end up finding John Benet in he opens it says he doesn't see
anything closes the door latches it back up the one thing I'll say is John says um or like his old interviews it's like
not clear he can't remember if he like turned on the light or if the light was or if it was off which I understand
right like in in that moment like that's not a detail I would remember so is it possible that that Fleet didn't turn it
on and also she's not like right in front when you open the door like it's to the side a little bit so if it's like
already kind of dark you open it up like oh no kid just like wandering around in
here because it was still a kidnapping right when fleet's going to look so no kid in here like just shut it I think
John could also just like naturally like bre like instinctively know where the switch is
cuz it's his house right and I think the other thing that sticks with me is I've
heard it before that he' made like a beine for this wine seller like is yes is that true yes and no so he does when
she says hey go look top to bottom he does go right for the basement I think he makes he goes to the broken window
first I think or at least like draws fleet's attention to the broken window and then he goes to the wine Celler but
it is pretty immediate and here's the other thing that I can't explain so remember how a year ago when we started
the story I told you that John that John went to the basement like at some point
that morning when he was looking around um so he says that he goes down this is like at before or right about like 10:00
a.m. so he says he goes down and he noticed the broken window and he said the the window was like unlatched and
open and he at first he says like slightly later reports it's like wide open but either way it's really strange
because like he says later what he did is he just like latched it back up and then I mean I told you he comes up to
the basement and he doesn't say anything he doesn't say the window's broken he doesn't say the window was
open which like if you're looking like your daughter is missing at that point if you're looking for like a a point of
entry or exit I it's it's notable it's notable um and I think that people wonder why he
wouldn't bring that up in that moment but again you do so so many things that don't make sense in the
middle of trauma now this window does end up becoming a huge part of the narrative later when the ramsy have to
go hire a team to look into the idea of an intruder because again they say that the police are only focused on them so
there are a lot of strange things happening in this case that the media latches on to this is how we got so many
of those wild tabloid stories which by the way like I don't know if you noticed I ordered a bunch of these like on eBay
just because like I wanted to like go back and get a sense of like what what what was tone yeah what was everyone
seeing um and it like kind of wild like we I definitely wasn't allowed to like buy these oh no we could see the covers
at the grocery store and that was it I could I think I showed you like I was looking at like the fashion in here cuz
we were never allowed to look inside the tablets I like I don't know what I it's
like when we the bye-bye birdie when my mom always taped over a part that she thought was too scandalous for us to
watch and we thought it was going to be so bad so much worse in our heads and we
watched it and it was just a dance scene that she had cut yeah that was it that was it so it's like a Side Story uh it's
so interesting because like the store there's like no meat there they have like this wild headline and then
like no they like two interesting lines and then like a bunch of nothing to back
it up like 17 different lines saying the exact same thing written slightly different just to back up the headline
truly headline only and all of the headlines were mom this Dad that and the towboys were freaking ruthless like they
were following them they were harassing them they said or Don told me that they had to like hide Burke on the floorboard
of the car just to like get him to school like is like is nothing off limits I mean I already told you about
her autopsy photos getting released earlier we talked about her like bed wedding and Stu that got
released because they ended up releasing her medical records like someone leaked
this girl's medical records to reporters in some way and I like I don't want to go into like every single visit or not
visit point is like people were coming out of the woodwork and anyone with pictures or stories were like trying to
just make a buck some of them were fabricated some of them were true and one of them that has become like a
central part of the story is the fact that John Benet was having toileting issues this information in particular I
feel like kind of becomes the Crux of detective Steve Thomas' theory he was very clear that he thought py was the
one who killed Jean Benet his idea was that Jean banet wet herself that night and everything else
was done to like stage a cover up he even wrote a book on his on the case and like his theory of it the ramsy ended up
suing him and his publisher over it they settle out of court detective aren't had
a different Theory like she very much was suspicious of John I think I brought up her Good Morning America interview
already from 1999 cordial statement yeah right right so I don't need to rehash the whole thing I'm going to link it out
it's going be all the source material it is interesting to watch cuz she looks like a woman who's joke or people like
throw out nasty things too and she doesn't give a motive maybe she doesn't know what the motive totally was but she
seems to straight up be perceived as like scared of John ramsy like she talks about this moment where like when he
brings her like John B's body up and they're both like over her and she's like I look at him and like in that
moment I just know and then she like tells him to go call 911 and she says she grabs her shoulder like her gun and
she counts her bullets because she didn't know if everyone would make it out if they alive or like or would be
alive when they come like First Responders she gets written off as a crazy lady like a lot of people call her
crazy like I think that's an easy out like when you're talking about a woman like we that's just something that I
think is just an easy thing to say like and really John in our interview like he
stressed that to me like just how crazy she was how like incompetent like but like here's another interesting
thing like but I asked him in the interview because I do know that later on py and Linda end up having some kind
of like at least cordial exchanges where Linda like goes and meets with paty for
like an hour like just the two of them so like they they must and I asked him because he was he
was still like she's so crazy she's so crazy and I was like but clearly there's some kind of relationship and at first
he was like well you know she was the detective I'm like no no no but like it was after she got taken off the case
what did they talk about and John says he doesn't know he was a part of the conversation
so that that answer probably died with paty I think John still like to me he still called her crazy and I think she
gets a lot of the flak for bungling the scene that first day but she actually ended up suing her Department saying
that she was they had kind of like an unofficial gag order from what I understand and she says she was kept
from defending herself like it wasn't all on her she says and it ruined her career and she does she kind of like
unceremoniously just like gets taken off the case she got harassed by question mark I don't really know I don't know if
anyone knows for sure she doesn't do interviews anymore there was a rumor she was writing a book but I haven't seen
like a peep about that so she probably saw what happened to Steve Thomas with his book and and her case against the
department ended up getting dismissed so there was like no winning for her to talk about this case like I couldn't
even reach her for like an off the record conversation so she's far removed from this now mhm moral of the story the
loud theories among law enforcement were family Centric and it seems like even they couldn't agree on who or why
because things were a mess many people were calling for a grand jury to be convened so so that they could decide
what is just tabloid fodder and what is real evidence like was there someone in the house responsible for something that
night or should we be out there looking for an intruder like the ramies have been saying all along and it takes
almost 2 years but the dam finally breaks in September of 1998 that is when a grand jury finally gets called but
before that gets going two very letters get published publicly one from Fleet white in anticipation of the grand jury
and then another from detective Steve Thomas who is like dunzo with this he resigns from the Department in like a
pretty dramatic way and listen the next part is going to be like just a little bit long but girl it's like it is spicy
and remember you guys like you signed up for this so I am going to edit each of these just a little bit um down for like
Clarity but I'm going to have links to the full thing in our show notes so you can go read them in full grab your
popcorn let's get comfy the first from detective Steve Thomas Chief Beckner on June 22nd I
submitted a letter to Chief Kobe requesting a leave of absence from the Boulder Police Department in response to
persistent speculation as to why I chose to leave the ramsy investigation this letter explains more fully those reasons
the primary reason I chose to leave is my belief that the District Attorney's Office continues to mishandle the ramsy
case I had been troubled for many months with many aspects of the investigation albeit an uphill battle of a case to
begin with it became a nearly impossible investigation because of the political alliances philosophical differences and
professional egos that blocked progress in more ways and on more occasions than I can detail in this memorandum on June
1st and 2nd 1998 we crunched 30,000 pages of Investigation to its Essence and put our cards on the table
delivering the case in a formal presentation to the district attorney's office we stood confident in our work
very shortly thereafter though the detectives who know this case better than anyone were advised by the district
attorney's office that we would not be participating as grand jury advisory Witnesses how were we expected to solve
this case when the District Attorney's office was crippling us with their positions I believe they were literally
facilitating The Escape of justice during this investigation consider the following during the investigation
detectives would discover collect and bring evidence to the district attorney's office only to have it samily
dismissed or rationalized as insignificant the most Elementary of investigative efforts such as obtaining
telephone and credit card records were met without support search warrants denied the significant opinions of
national experts were casually dismissed or ignored by the District Attorney's Office even the experienced FBI were
waved aside in a departure from protocol police reports physical evidence and investigative information we shared with
Ramsey defense attorneys all of this in the district attorney's office Spirit of
cooperation I served a search warrant only to find later defense attorneys were simply given copies of the evidence
that yielded an FBI agent whom I didn't even know quietly tipped me off about what the DA's office was doing behind
our backs conducting investigation the police department was wholly unaware of I was advised not to speak to certain
Witnesses and all but dissuaded from pursuing particular investigative efforts innocent people were not cleared
publicly or otherwise even when it was unmistakably the right thing to do as reputations and lives were destroyed
some in the district attorney's office to this day pursue weak defenseless and innocent people in Shameless tactics
that one couldn't believe more bizarre if it were made up I was told by one in the district attorney's office about
being unable to break a particular police officer from his Resolute accounts of events he had witnessed in
my opinion this was not trial preparation this was an attempt to derail months of hard work there is
evidence that was critical to the investigation that to this day has never been collected because neither search
warrants nor other means were supported to do so not to mention evidence which still sits today untested in the
laboratory as differences continue about how to proceed while investigative efforts were rebuffed my search warrant
affidavits in attempts to gather evidence in the murder investigation of a 6-year-old child were met with
refusals and instead the suggestion that we asked the permission of the Ramsay before proceeding and just before
conducting the ramsy interviews I thought it inconceivable I was being lectured on building trust these are but
a few of the many examples of what why I chose to leave having to convince to plead at times to a district attorney's
office to assist us in the murder of a little girl by way of the most basic of investigative request was simply absurd
I believe the District Attorney's office is Thoroughly compromised when we were told by one in the district attorney's
office months before we had even completed our investigation that this case is not prosecutable we shook our
heads in disbelief will there be a real attempt at Justice I may be among the last to find out it is my belief the
District Attorney's office has effectively crippled this case the time for intervention is now what I witnessed
for 2 years of my life was so fundamentally flawed it reduced me to tears everything the badge ever meant to
me was so foundationally shaken one should never have to sell one's Soul as a prerequisite to wear it on June 26th
after leaving the investigation for the last time and leaving the city of Boulder I wept as I drove home removing
my detective shield and placing it on the seat beside me later putting it on a desk drawer at home knowing I could
never put it back on at 36 years old I thought my life's passion as a police officer was carved in stone I realized
that although I may have to trade my badge for a carpenter's Hammer I will do so with a clear conscience it is with a
heavy heart that I offer my resignation from the Boulder Police Department in protest of this continuing travesty
Detective Steve Thomas number 638 detective division Boulder Police Department okay that was so much I and you I edit
it down yeah you see you you trimmed this up for like Clarity we only got the big Parts the important parts but I mean
I guess what I'm taking away from it is he's thinking that the police and the da
well he's Sayang so he like he was on Boulder he was on Boulder PD and he's basically highlighting the rift that I
think was kind of becoming evident like it very much felt like they were a little bit on different teams and I and
they tried like publicly to like be a united front but it was like it was pretty clear that's not what was
happening and you know one of the things I actually he kind of like touched on the search warrants and stuff um when I
was interviewing John I was like you know one of the things I heard was that like they didn't get your like cell
phone records and stuff like that he's like no no no like the second they asked for something we gave it to them and
it's like this is one of those things we like it's all true so it seems like the
the DA's office was delaying the PD in requesting those things like they weren't signing the search warrants they
were asking them not to go ask the family so there were times when maybe things weren't collected in a timely
manner but it wasn't because the Rams were withholding things it's because things weren't like flowing properly on
the law enforcement side yeah and like and at the same time not because law person didn't want it it's cuz they were
like being bureaucracy it like yeah like yes and maybe more yes and but why but why but why so the Ramsay have been
clear that they feel like no other suspects were investigated properly and if you read legal depositions or watch
any of the clips that have come out from them like again that letter from Steve Thomas is scathing his book is as well
but I like went through and I was like reading the deposition and watching some of the clips and there are times that in
my opinion Steve Thomas gets caught where like I do think there were areas pointed out where like they could have
done more investigating or ways that he he frames things in his book that I don't like when you're literally like on
the line legally maybe it's not as like strong as like you again framed it m and then I
also think we're very clear and that there is not a symbiotic relationship between the DA's office and the
police and the second letter I mentioned the fleet white letter I think it really
raises the question of why that was which is what we're saying but why so here you go again edit it down a little
bit but I'll link you the full to the people of Colorado in anticipation of receiving a subpoena to
appear before that grand jury we wish at this time to address matters concerning
the investigation which we feel are of great importance to the people of Colorado and the Boulder Community after
John Benet Ramsey was killed in Boulder nearly 20 months ago her parents John and paty Ramsey immediately hired
prominent Democrat criminal defense attorneys with the law firm of Haden Morgan and foran this firm and its
Partners have close professional political and personal ties to prosecutors the Denver and Boulder legal
and judicial communities state legisl s and high ranking members of Colorado government including Governor Roy RoR we
knew John Benet and her parents very well and have been closely involved in the investigation as Witnesses during
the past year we have also come to know and respect Mr Tomas and were saddened and discouraged by his departure from
the investigation we share Mr Thomas's view regarding the district attorney and his contention that overwhelming
pressure brought to bear on the district attorney and police leadership from various quarters has thwarted the
investigation and delayed Justice in the case while it is unlikely that the district attorney has been corrupted by
ramsy defense attorneys it is certain that the district attorney and his prosecutors have been greatly influenced
by their metro area district attorney advisers and by defense attorneys chummy persuasiveness and threats of reprisals
for anyone daring to jeopardize the civil rights of their victim clients indeed the district attorney and Ramsey
attorneys have simultaneously rebuked the police for focusing their investigation on the ramies when in fact
police were simply following evidence notwithstanding what the public has been led to believe Boulder Police leadership
and detectives have been under the effective control of the district attorney and his advisor since the early
days of the investigation in December 1997 we met with Governor RoR to request that the state intervene and appoint an
independent special prosecutor to take over the investigation and prosecution of the case citing the growing conflict
between police and prosecutors and the delay of any progress in the investigation we expressed our view that
Boulder authorities were incapable of Seeking Justice most developments in the case brought to the Public's attention
throughout 1997 should be regarded as well- publicized but clumsy attempts by the district attorney and police
leadership to look busy follow long task lists and clean up investigative files while the district attorney killed time
and spread out responsibility for the case on the other hand advances in the case since early this year have been
carefully planned to condition the public for a grand jury investigation the District Attorney's past indecision
and the need for police to ask him for a grand jury investigation were deliberate
attempts to mislead the public if based on nothing other than the District Attorney's repeated public statements
and leaks characterizing the case as not prosecutable there can be little doubt that absent a confession the people
running the investigation had long ago decided against filing charges in the case instead they manipulated public
opinion to favor the use of the grand jury there is compelling evidence however that their motivation for
presenting the case to a grand jury has little or nothing to do with obtaining new evidence grilling reluctant
Witnesses or returning an indictment and everything to do with sealing away facts
circumstances and evidence gathered in the investigation in a grand jury transcript it is our firm belief that
the district attorney and others intend to use the grand jury and its secrecy and attempt to protect their careers and
also serve the conflicting interests of powerful influential and threatening people who have something to hide or
protect or who simply don't want to be publicly linked to a dreadful murder investigation in direct response to Mr
Thomas's recent letter Governor RoR met on August 12th 1998 with District Attorneys Grant Ritter Peters and Thomas
later that day governor rer announced at a press conference that Hunter had told
him that the case was on track for a grand jury RoR said that it would be improper to appoint a special prosecutor
now but that to improve public confidence in the case he would make available to Hunter additional
prosecutorial expertise on August 13th 1998 the Rocky Mountain news offered an editorial entitled calling in the
calvalry in which the editor generally supported Governor romer's action but insightfully asked the obvious question
why has it taken so long for Hunter's office to present the case to a grand jury there is a relatively simple but
compelling answer to the question raised by the Rocky Mountain news editorial since very early in the case there has
been at least a tacit understanding among the district attorney police leadership those persons advising these
agencies and Ramsay defense attorneys that the case would be presented to a grand jury but not until the statutory
Boulder grand jury was convened in April ril 1998 this delay was deemed necessary by
some or all of these parties in order to take advantage of a new statute concerning grand jury reporting
procedures by law however this change in procedure would only apply to reports issued by grand juries convened after
October 1st 1997 in order to take advantage of the new statute a boulder grand jury would
have to wait until April 1998 the next convening of the statutory Boulder grand jury subsequent to October 1st 1997 in
order to accomplish this it was necessary for these people to stall and cynically rely on the Public's relative
ignorance of the statute and the purpose and general nature of grand juries speaking in favor of the bill before the
committee were District Attorneys Ritter Thomas and Grant all of these District Attorneys along with Jim Peters would be
named publicly as advisers to Alex Hunter on the Ramsay case the original intent of the Colorado district attorney
Council draft and that of Representative Kaufman was to make it easier for grand
juries to issue reports in cases where there is not an indictment returned but where in the public interest the grand
jury wishes to address allegations of misconduct by public employees falling short of criminal conduct the final bill
made it possible for a grand jury to address allegations of first and second degree murder and the two classes of
child abuse resulting in death the new statute would enable a boulder grand jury investigating the death of John Ben
Ramsey to publicly exonerate someone who' been alleged to have committed one of these crimes but only in the event an
indictment was not returned the bill was signed into law by Governor RoR on April
8th 1997 it is certain that Boulder County district attorney Alex Hunter the metro
area District Attorneys advising Mr Hunter the current leadership of the Boulder Police Department the three
attorneys advising the Boulder Police Department and Ramsey defense attorneys have known that to take advantage of the
new statute it would be necessary to delay a grand jury investigation of the Ramsey case until April
1998 the people of Colorado are entitled to be frustrated and angry with those public officials and other persons who
have brought this case to its current status we must be mindful however of the first cause of the investigation's
failure the refusal of John and paty Ramsey to cooperate fully and genuinely with those officially charged with the
responsibility of investigating the death of their daughter John Benet Fleet Russell white Jr and Priscilla brown
white August 17th 1998 Boulder Colorado okay what my my head is absolutely spinning I
can barely get my thoughts straight on this I know uh we obviously weren't reading Colorado newspapers in 1998 and
like this seems a little hard-hitting for like the grocery store tabloids when we were in like third grade so I think a
lot of people missed this mhm basically in a nutshell Fleet is saying that there's just mad corruption not so much
corruption but like conflict of interest so a bill was made with the intention of
clarifying the law so that there was more like transparency in the process for the public which would basically let
them issue certain reports from Grand dery proceedings but still keep like other parts of things confidential mhm
check but by the time it R through the system timing it like right after John B's death and with the help of people
providing advisement consultation or representation in her case it was like a little different different yeah if
because I know where this is going and I'll cut right to the chase one of the main things that it would allow them to
do is say that like oh the jury didn't indict which means there's no case my hands are tied
yeah Bingo and you do know where this is going so the grand jury is called lots of
witnesses we know some through reporting like who was going to court and whatnot
like I know detective Linda AR I know Burke I know the Ramsey's pilot the whites lots lots lots more big hits yeah
not Steve Thomas as we know from his letter not the Ramsay like John and paty though JN has always maintained that
they were more than willing to go to participate in any way necessary But ultimately they were not called and then
in October of 1999 their hearings come to an end and the district attorney makes this long
awaited announcement the boulder Grand Jury has completed its work and will not return
no charges have been filed the grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well bringing to Bear
all of their legal Powers life experiences and shrewdness yet I must report to you that I and my prosecution
task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to Warrant the filing of charges against anyone who has
been investigated at this time under Colorado law the proceedings of the grand jury are secret under no
circumstances will I or any of my advisers prosecutors the law enforcement officers working on the case or grand
jurors discuss the grand jury proceedings today or ever unless ordered by the court so basically everyone decided the
Ramsay had nothing to do with it because the grand jury didn't indict yes that was basically the implied
message to the public like hey no tabloid BS like these are the facts and these people decided that there would be
no charges is the implied message and did Linda AR ever speak out after that no so she did her Good Morning America
thing that I talked about she did that right before this happened so she did that interview in September and then
Alex Hunt made that announcement in October and the ramy's lawyers they made a statement about her
appearance that I found in the Denver Post um because they like comment on the timing sck your mug thank you so they
said quote we question the timing of this interview the statement from the Ramsey's attorney said the grand jury
will conclude its work in the next month there is no good reason why Miss AR could not have sought publicity after
the grand jury process was concluded end quote now after this is when momentum really really picks up I think for the
ramsy family who finally feels this small amount of vindication and they hope that maybe now investigators will
focus on looking for the Intruder that they say came into their home that they've been saying all along came into
their home a home which they sell and move away from to go back to Georgia and John told me that his company had this
relocation program where they would buy your house like and I've seen stuff like
this with like big organizations espe for like high up execs like they would buy it from you so that you can move
when they need you to move and not be like held up by this house or whatever so they buy it and then would sell it or
whatever but it's interesting cuz like the documentation around this is kind of weird so from the records that I pulled
from the assessor's office I see where the house was bought presumably by the ramsy in 1991 for
$500,000 then in December of 1997 so this is about a year after Jean Benet it looks like there is a transfer of the
deed but it is a $0 transfer so like no one bought it it was like me giving a house to you or something like that
there's no money Association from the assessor's office records and I can't see who it went to like they don't have
that publicly available on a transfer on records right then we see another transfer happen in February of 1998 for
$650,000 according to statements made to reporters Mike bam says that a group of
investors purchased the ramsy house from like this locky middleman thing but they
didn't purchase it under any like one person's name or or person's names M which again is like a totally normal
thing the LLC formed is named after the address so it's 755 15th Street LLC Mike
bam told the Daily Camera that this group of investors was composed of individuals assisting the ramsy family
what does that even mean I can't tell you because I looked up the the property records and then the business records so
I went and looked for 75515 Street LLC the company doesn't list individuals names under its member so instead it
lists group two partnership group four partnership and then there's a registered agent because you have to
have someone's name you a human there yeah you can't just like go company or company or LS whatever and the
registered agent is a woman named Anne bour and there's a listed address of 1900 15th Street in Boulder now
newspapers.com is not the end all be all like there is actually a distinct like lack of newspapers from Boulder Colorado
that I haven't been able to find there but when I look up the address I found one singular news article that popped up
and it's from The Daily Sentinel from February 6 1997 here thank you you are so prepared with this folder I love it
so prepared so it's this article about like the cost of the Ramsay investigation like what it's costing
like the police the city yeah and then towards the end it says Wednesday the Ramsey family announced the address to
mail contributions for a Children's Advocacy group founded in their daughter's memory donations may be sent
to the John Benet Ramsey Children's Foundation in care of the Colorado Business Bank of Boulder 19001 15th
Street Boulder 80302 and so then I got into this like weird rabbit hole with this bank because
then when I started looking up the bank I found this next article from the daily
Sentinal from January 13th 1997 and it says women's bank has changed its name to Colorado Business Bank a sign of the
progress women have made since the business was founded 20 years ago but in a piece then later that I saw
in like Denver library.org it says that the women's Bank sold in 1994 and that the name change happened in 1995 not
1997 when this article that I found was and according to the nice librarian at the Carnegie Library of local history in
Boulder Colorado um that address the 195th Street was listed for Colorado Business
Bank in their phone books in 1997 and 1998 but then it wasn't there anymore in 1999 and then I saw that like when I
look at the Colorado Business Bank it got bought by B Financial 2018 so it's not like it got bought and changed you
know back then in 99 when it disappears and it it all probably means nothing like I don't know who Ann Bor is it's
probably not weird that she with the house is tied to this like address where like they're doing like Foundation
donations because we know that the group who bought the house was like composed of like Ram people who were supporting
the ram it almost feels like um almost like an executive of a will type situation like a figure head for an
organization and a foundation or whatnot yeah so I don't know again she might have some connection I like tried
reaching out to people who might have like known her I hav't had any luck getting anyone to talk to me um but
let's go back to the house for a second so the statements made about the house at the time about this like mystery
purchase was that this group was going to hold onto the house for like TBD amount of time and then all of the
profits from the house are going to go to the jeanan Ramsey 's Foundation which by this point John and paty had set up
in memory of John Benet with the help of Mike B he's always there according to the Denver Post the foundation was
formed with the goal to like I think they said Gather funds to be used in the Education and Care of children all in
the memory of Jean Benet so do you know when the house sold I do so the house didn't sell until
2004 okay okay so this is a total aside but I just read a book it's called tell me everything the story of a private
investigation and it's about this private investigators like assistant who is investigating University of
Colorado and one of the people that she's investigating is like someone who is living in the ramsy house at the time
of the investigation which is like wait what year late 90s early 2000s so it's like in in this interim
period in this room period I think who odd and like he's not a person who should be able to necessarily afford a
6,000 square foot mansion the timing was just weird I wanted to mention it and we know that
there's no like transaction in that period so like someone must have been like renting it or letting him stay
there but I don't I I wish I could tell you who I but I don't know who I don't know who who was holding the property at
that point yeah weird just a just a thought just in aide just a weird thing you just like happen to read that book I
love literally like a month ago okay so to go back so I looked at the foundation
a little bit so we they say that they're going to hold the house for TBD amount of time maybe rent it out we don't know
and then they're going to donate the money from like the the proceeds of like whatever profit from the house to the
foundation I didn't find what I was expecting to find so the 990 forms for the organization they filed in 1998 1999
and 2000 and they don't show any huge transactions after 2000 I think they actually stopped filing and then the
foundation get shut down in 2003 shutting it down in 2003 meant that contributions from the sale of the house
in 2004 couldn't go there oh so I don't know where they went you would have to ask group two partners and group four
Partners if anyone knows who that is unfortunately we can't ask Ann Bor because she died in
2009 I so so again I see why maybe the house didn't go there I was also expecting
though to see money from the sale of John and paty's book so they wrote a book called The Death of
innocence and many of the statements that I have seen from them from their team from all these different people is
that the proceeds from the book were going to go towards two things so the Ramsay legal fees and the foundation now
per John it seems like their legal fees like bled them dry um at one point his lawyers represented him he said pro bono
because they couldn't afford to pay them anymore what I find interesting is that
the goal must have changed to be that two-prong Approach at some time because um when I when I sat down with John he
actually gave us this these box of like tapes and most of them are like pageant stuff or home movies like family
weddings whatever but actually one of those tapes appears to be of John and py practicing their book promotion
interviews with a media trainer which is very I did media training before I went
on the Today Show to talk about my book but this is where like again in this at least it seems like it started that the
money was going to only go to one place here take a lesson okay one that's it U you are you have written a a very
uh thorough and interesting book what do you intend to do uh with the prophets if that's not your personal
question and should I always wait for py to answer or should I just no just if I'm
looking at you okay well we've established a foundation in John B's name to honor her and to
leave a legacy for her and the profits from the book will go to the foundation Foundation is going to focus
on protecting children against predators is that I guess that's it then I don't know it just sort of
um leaves me hanging here I mean that's a very generous and and and good thing for you to do uh is it
um how would you know how to protect children against predators I mean how would you use the money to do that well
we've seen a number of flaws in our system as it relates to the murder of a child we are the the strongest most
powerful Nation on Earth and yet we don't respond with our might when one of our
children is murdered that's wrong we want to Advocate change you know would it be possible for
you to site some of the cases that you're talking about other than the wrong one of the best examples that I
that that we have learned about through all of this is is that when your child's
photograph is taken at school or at church or in any kind of activity dance recital piano recital that photograph
becomes the property of the photographer and he or she may publish that photograph at any time any place that
they so choose without your permission so for instance they own the copyrights well what danger can can happen if you
have a picture of your child photograph is is some place and and a a pedophile or someone who has reason to
want to zero in on that child and do harm to that child that is a bad thing so are you associating that with
with your own tragedy are you saying that there were so many photographs of Jean Benet because of the the work that
she did in in pageants that that could have incited some I'm saying that that is an example of one way that we need to
we do not need to put our children out there in newspaper articles in uh the photographs should be for family
memories not for um public releas well and and most important when a child is murdered in this country we
need to respond with the best we have to find the killer that does two things it
sends a message that we're not going to tolerate it and if you think about harming our child our children you
better think twice and secondly it ensures that we capture these Monsters uh before they kill
again I don't doubt that you have you know beneficent and and wonderful feelings about about doing this kind of
thing but how would you go about protecting a child against a ped against a perpetrator I would I would Advocate
that uh the murder of a child be the most serious offense uh in our society it should be a
federal crime to murder a child in this country and once found once the the murderer is found he should be
given he should be executed or given a s he should be he should be U put away forever that's the most horrible thing a
human being can do is to pray in a child okay what I'm getting at is I think it's
a wonderful and and and very generous thing to do to to donate the profits of your book to such a cause I don't know
how you're going to implement it and how you're going to make it happen I just wonder about they educational awareness
through legislation they're all have you done any of that yet no no okay um all right has Foundation already been
set up I mean I heard you say well we can offer rewards uh substantial rewards for information we can establish a a tip
Center information center we can establish databases that track known uh child sex
offenders uh we can put experts in place make experts available to local law enforcement we can
Advocate uh in the United States uh Congress that the murder of a child should be
mandated as a as a federal crime Federal resources should be put on U attacking that but so far you
haven't done anything like that no no nor has anyone else but we're going to try we're going to do the best we can
because it's a horrible flaw in our system we respond aggressively when a bank is
robbed the FBI comes in it's a federal crime it's it's major do we care more about our money
than we do our children so John and I when I talked to him we didn't get into where the house
money went during our conversation because if he sold it I'm not sure he's the person who has the answers that I'm
looking for we did get a little bit into John B's Legacy and what's happening in
place at the foundation I'm going to touch on that a little bit later I don't think the ramies were ever
planning to fund the whole Foundation themselves perhaps there weren't many contributions at most like I said I only
saw small transactions and at most there was like $112,000 that I saw like in the thing so
while starting the foundation was like a noble effort it perhaps wasn't the undertaking that they were ready for as
someone who started like a true 501c3 like it is a heck of a lot of work and like to keep it running to keep it
sustainable on its own it is like a massive undertaking so whatever they were planning I mean in that interview it's
like have you done this no like are you planning to do it yes like it that doesn't actually come to fruition so in
2003 the foundation goes defunct oh there's something 2003 was a weird year so the foundation goes defunct in 2003
and then something else happens and it's one of those other things that I had never known about
before when you think of New England you don't think of this I'm Kylie low I'm an
investigative journalist and Storyteller each week I share homicides and missing
persons cases from across the state of Main and greater New England this is my home these stories are my passion and
this podcast is my platform to help friends and families keep the memories of their loved ones alive long after the
attention Fades this is dark down [Music] east okay so here is a media release that was sent out on Wednesday June 4th
2003 that has been archived on bouldercolorado.gov the Boulder Police Department recently became aware that
someone was unlawfully sending emails using the name of Chief Beckner on April 25th 2003 Rocky Mountain news columnist
Charlie Brennan received an email titled as being from Chief Beckner complimenting Mr Brennan for a recent
column he had written on the John Benet Ramsey case according to embedded information within the message the email
was sent from an MSN Hotmail account Beckner BPD hotmail.com the email was then signed
off with regards Mark please see below message text from Chief Beckner sent Friday April 25th 2003 1:16 p.m. to
Brennan c@ rockymountain news.com subject great articles Charlie just want you to know I thought those
two articles you wrote today were excellent you got everything right as you always do thanks for all your
support eventually will be proven right regards Mark being skeptical of the message's authenticity Mr Brennan
telephoned Chief Beckner to ask him about the message Chief Beckner confirmed that he did not send the
message the chief was alarmed that someone was apparently using his title and name without authorization to
communicate about the John Benet Ramsey case with members of the media warrants were obtained and executed for MSN
Hotmail in California according to MSN Hotmail the Beckner BPD at hotmail.com account was established in 2000 the
account Creator provided information stating that the owner was Chief Beckner from Boulder Colorado and furthermore
provided an accurate birth year for the chief further investigation LED police to the Internet Protocol IP numbers from
where the suspect had been accessing the Beckner BPD hotmail.com account since early March 2003 all access to the
Beckner BPD hotmail.com account were from a single NETCOM now owned by EarthLink dialup account a search
warrant was obtained and executed for Earthlink in Georgia according to earthlink's records the account holder
that has been accessing the Beckner BPD hotmail.com email account is Susan B Stein
5760 Long Grove Drive Atlanta Georgia Susan Stein is known as a close friend of John and paty Ramsey and has been
interviewed as a witness in reference to the Ramsey investigation the search warrants also yielded other messages
that had been received by the Beckner BPD hotmail.com account a number of these messages indicate that the Beckner
BPD hotmail.com user had been attempting to convince others that he or she was Chief Mark Beckner others appeared to be
nonsensical please note that the investigators were able to confirm that the messages to and from Rocky Mountain
news reporter Charlie Brennan and Rita Johnson were received or sent by those individuals the other messages were not
confirmed as received or sent by those parties at the request of the Boulder police department members of the Georgia
Bureau of Investigation gbi went to miss Stein's residence in an attempt to interview her on June 3rd 2003 however
she refused to talk with the gbi agent Chief Mark Beckner is alarmed by the discovery that his name and position as
Boulder police chief has been used in an effort to communicate with others given
the history of the Ramsey case and the concerns we have had with information being distributed to the public often
times inaccurate information this discovery is disturbing stated Chief Beckner I want the media and public to
know that if they have received Communications from this email address purporting to be me that it is bogus my
official email address is public and is Beckner M Boulder col colorado.gov under Colorado law criminal
impersonation is a Class 6 felony and impersonating a police officer is a Class one misdemeanor the Boulder Police
Department and the Boulder County District Attorney's office have agreed to issue a letter to Susan Stein
advising her of the unlawful conduct and that the use of Chief beckner's name in
such a manner must cease immediately the Beckner BPD hotmail.com account has been
frozen by MSN Hotmail the boulder Police Department would like anyone receiving email messages from any reported member
of the Boulder Police Department to know that official email addresses use the member's last name and first initial
followed by bouldercolorado.gov if you are not sure that a message is legitimate please call
the department member to confirm that they did in fact send the message we are concerned that there could be other
messages out there reportedly from either me or other department members that are fake in an attempt to either
receive information or communicate false information stated Beckner on June 3rd 2003 gief Beckner did receive an email
from Susan Stein in which she apologized for using the Hotmail account describing
it as a sophomoric prank and apologizing for any distress she may have caused anyone with additional information is
encouraged to call Boulder police detective Jim mcferson at 303 441 3330 I'm sorry what was that isn't that
weird yeah but I I think I'm confused I thought the Stein lived in Boulder yes and no the Steines did live
in Boulder in 19 1996 they were the ones who the Rams stopped to give that present to they like the last stop on
Christmas they lived there for a little bit yep they lived at their house for a little bit after and someway somehow
some reason the Steines end up moving to Atlanta either at the same time as the Ramsay or after like the Ramsey move
back to Atlanta like the timing is unclear but they do like pick up their their family and their lives and move to
Atlanta I love you so much we've never moved together we've we've done a lot of moving we have never followed one
another no I love you too and it's it's interesting because as of Monday March 17th 1997
there is this time article that's published that day where the article is not like what matters like it's talking
about like the cost of tuition whatever and glenstein is quoted in that article like it the quote doesn't matter but
they give his title and he's the vice president for finance at the University of Colorado which is like a pretty sweet
gig to walk away from but still I mean I know people move before that the article
says that he was a senior budget official at Penn from like I think it was like 82 to 90 which
the sanduski ear the sanduski era yeah so lots of Reason To Leave right like so maybe he left Colorado to go to another
University like I I don't I don't have record of where he went after Colorado so I don't know well and again not to
reference this book but like the timing is interesting because the Scandal that the book was investigating was a sex
scandal at the University of Colorado he's not going though right no but it's happening at the University and
there's a cover up and there's money involved so maybe so the same way he could have been like it's just
interesting timing that's all yeah I was going to say so the same reason like I mean I can understand wanting to like
leave pen or something like all the reason to want to leave or like find a new like organiz yeah whatever so so
maybe that maybe that's why like I could never like I don't I didn't understand the timing of it but like maybe
something was going on at the University that he was ready to leave and moving to
a place where you already know people it's good to it is like when you when you think about like okay if my time
here is up like I'm going to pick up and leave we could go anywhere it's good to
go to a community where you have Community you have Community right you have some kind of like friend like
grounding you whatever it's so much easier to like integrate into a new life and maybe they thought about like going
to their friends who like who was who you know they've become really good friends clearly they were living to
together like they're going through such a hard time and maybe part of it was not
only for them to have Community but for for them to like support these new found
friends and the ramies still needed the support because even though they weren't
physically in Boulder like it didn't none of it stopped like the personal attacks didn't stop the being hounded by
the tabloids didn't stop like they followed them across the country no matter where they went I even found
actually one of the Tabloid articles it's by um these two guys David Wright and David Duffy it's from March 11th
1997 where someone had taken in the same plane as the Ramsay from one end of the
country to the other just to like report on their every move like who sat where who looked at who who didn't look at who
how were they interacting like who got off the plane where like they were all over them so I understand for the ramies
again Stein maybe they wanted to go support them the ramsy just needed to get out of there but they did the thing
I will say too is everyone's like oh they like how do you leave when this investigation is going on for your
daughter don't you want to be a part of that they did have boots on the ground on their behalf in Boulder so L SMI is
on their team by this point so he was an investigator who was originally brought
in by the DA's office to look at this case he ended up leaving because like the official capacity because he got so
frustrated he felt like everyone was so narrowly focused on the family that they
were like missing the bigger picture he felt like there wasn't enough being done
right and this dude straight up devoted his like life to John B Ramsey's case honestly his family Legacy to this case
because even after he died his family has like gone on to continue his work like they've picked up the torch they
were actually a part of this really actually interesting podcast I listened to called the killing of Jean Bonet
ramsy which I will link to admittedly I when it first came out I saw it and I avoided it and I think it's like so much
of this case where I'm like I already know like I cannot believe like why are we rehashing this and it was like you
know the pageant pictures of her but once I was like diving into it there was a ton I didn't know in that podcast
about potential suspects and about the work that L Smith has done to or he did his family did to like go
down those paths to vet things to like put an order of like who should we look at like you know we've got a limited
number of resources prior prioritization yes but anyway so L SMI is like all over
this case and I think he really gets people for the first time to think about what it would like if it's not the r not
just like oh it's not the ramies but really think about like okay if not them then who and how and why mhm now Lou
feels confident that the Intruder came through that basement window it was already broken so they could just like
reach in unlatch it open it up like he even demonstrates how easy it would be for someone to like slip down into the
window sell okay but what about the spider webs yeah I don't the spider webs do you like do you you want to just give
I like give him a quick uh breakdown of the spider webs there was like this great thing covering the area to get
into the window and there were like officers who said they saw spiderwebs on this great they said it had been there
for a while someone would have messed it up if the great had been moved to get into the window yeah I never really see
anything like to fully refute that I think maybe I heard once they said that maybe the webs weren't like as fresh as
they thought they were yeah like they were saying that um like if someone had like moved the great and then put it
back they would expect the spider webs to be more fresh looking yeah but they the interpretation you get from people
who are giving us the interpretation of this is that they had been there for a long time they were more like cobwebby I
don't know that means like there aren't any pictures we don't know what it looks
like they they didn't find her body for hours so also like maybe the Intruder was like the most lucky person on earth
like I I don't have enough information to like see for myself to like make my own opinion of this so you just have
these two sides right like the one saying like it is impossible for those spids to be there and for your theory to
be right L SMI being like it means nothing like the spiders me nothing this is probably how they got in and then
there's also like this third option where like maybe neither like John in early days like there and this is where
like the conflicting early reports will be like oh they say he told them that he
locked up that night but in all of John's statements afterwards he's like we left the doors I don't know if I
checked them like they were we leave the doors like partially unlocked like there
could have been other entry points for this person to come into our home and they also said lots of people had keys
or like keys were missing or floating around or this person had it or like we never got this key back so all that to
say in my mind though that was like very much lose Smith's theory is it had to do
with this window them dropping down them using this the suitcase to like get in and out the window is not the only
option it's not the only option if you are thinking about an intruder Theory so like I don't want to like die on that
hill or get so caught up in that that again you can't look at the bigger picture MH and there are some other
stuff that L points out that we haven't really got into yet and that is the cord
used on John B on her neck and her hands that is never sourced to anything in the
house we don't know where that cord came from same thing with the tape that was over her mouth like that never gets
sourced to anything in the house so in L Smith's mind that means that someone had
to have brought those things in MH or at or or taken them out if they were already in the house right versus like
the legal pad that was left there the pen the paintbrush things that were sourced in the house but also left in
the house right so I I don't know that you can say that they like didn't come from we just don't know there's nothing
there so they like took something with them is is what Lou is saying like or we would find them here M even if we step
away from the evidence in the home because truly like you could go back and forth back and forth back and debate
this till you're bleue in the face I told you it's there I don't want to argue about the meaning of it that's not
my job I want to get to the facts so in 2003 more DNA testing is done and from her
underwear guess what they get an unknown male profile DNA like before but this time it is enough for a full profile
good enough to put into codus which I don't know where I was like sleeping at the wheel before I was like deep in this
like hi I didn't even realize there was a codus profile on the Jean B Ram case uh neither did I there of course have
been no matches or we would have heard about that by now yeah it's just sitting in the database hopefully still is that
was actually one of my questions I wanted to ask Boulder PD cuz I have seen in other cas that we've worked where
like the the requirements have changed over the years and I've seen where like the DNA was in but then there was a a
change like an update and like not no longer eligible matches the criteria yeah so that's what as far as everything
I've read is that it's in kodes I wanted to ask them specifically that nothing had changed but in all that time no hits
so in later years additional testing is done by some other crime labs and even other like outside of the state agency
like bod bod's a big lab still to the state who's doing a ton of genealogy stuff a ton of advanced testing season
of Justice works a lot with them so bod comes in they do some more testing and they get an unidentified male profile
from her underwear and lots of people say here's like the caveat lots of people say this is from saliva and they
might have done an amales test um which can Amal can be found in saliva it can also be found in other things but it's
usually like the levels are so much higher in saliva so I don't know if that's where they like that comes from
of like we know it's s because it wasn't you know any other fluid that they've been able to like definitively link it
to and I can't get like too far or I like I'm afraid I'm going to say something wrong because that's it's
really technical so what I can go back to is what is very clear in my mind and what I do understand is that when they
do this testing they find more DNA so we know we've got the DNA in the underwear
but they also test like places on her Long John specifically I think places where they think if someone was going to
like pull down her pants pull upper pants and they're able to get touch DNA on the outsides on the left and the
right and on one side the unidentified male one profile that we have in the underwear can't be
excluded so we can't exclude exclude it on the other side it's too small that it
can't be included or or excluded okay so we don't know anything well it we know that it might match we
know that the the DNA and the underwear might match or it's at least consistent with the touch DNA on the outsides now I
think it's important to note there is this like note that the DNA might come from more than two contributors which
like actually makes reading the results like from my understanding even more complicated but I I keep coming back to
like the the word like consistent because I almost have to like retrain my brain because what I had always heard in
the public and from like statements and stuff is that we have a match we have the same DNA here here and here and it
is not a match in that you can say 100% these are like the exact same profiles it is cannot be excluded cannot be
included or excluded it's like consistent with or it's enough to be like in my mind probative like it's it's
still very interesting that we have unknown male profiles in all these places is
like it's but like but like let's be clear make sure we're using the right language now it is powerful enough of a
find that the boulder da at the time This Woman's name is Mary Lacy she actually sent the ramsy a letter of
apology she actually sent it to John Ramsay because by that time John told me that py had lost her battle with ovarian
cancer so once again this letter is slightly edited for clarity but this this is what she told John Ramsey via
letter July 9th 2008 Mr John Ramsay as you are aware since December 2002 the boulder District
Attorney's office has been the agency responsible for the investigation of the homicide of your daughter John Benet I
understand that the fact that we have not been able to identify the person who killed her is a great disappointment
that is a continuing hardship for you and your family however significant new evidence has recently been discovered
through the application of relatively new methods of DNA analysis this new scientific evidence convinces us that it
is appropriate given the circumstances of this case to state that we do not consider your immediate family including
you your wife paty and your son Burke to be under any suspicion in the commission
of this crime I wish we could have done so before Mrs Ramsey died we became aware last summer that some private
Laboratories were conducting a new methodology described as touch DNA one method of sampling for touch DNA is the
scraping method this is a process in which forensic scientists scrape places where there are no stains or other signs
of the possible presence of DNA to recover for analysis any genetic material that might nonetheless be
present we contracted with the Bodi Technology Group a highly reputable laboratory recommended To Us by several
law enforcement agencies to use the scraping method for touch DNA on the long johns that John Benet wore and that
were probably handled by the perpetrator during the course of of this crime the bod technology laboratory was able to
develop a profile from DNA recovered from the two sides of the long johns the previously identified profile from the
crotch of the underwear worn by John Benet at the time of the murder matched the DNA recovered from the long johns at
bod unexplained DNA on the victim of a crime is powerful evidence the match of male DNA on two separate items of
clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items
despite substantial efforts over the years to identify the source of this DNA there is no innocent explanation for its
incriminating Presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that John Benet was wearing at the time
of her murder solving this crime remains our goal and its ultimate resolution will depend on more than just matching
DNA however given the history of the publicity surrounding this case I believe it is important and appropriate
to provide you with our opinion that your family was not responsible for this crime
based on the DNA results and our serious consideration of all the other evidence
we are comfortable that the profile now in codus is the profile of the perpetrator of this murder to the extent
that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime I am
deeply sorry no innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion
especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law I have the
Great great respect for the way you and your family have handled this adversity I am aware that there will be those who
will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion but DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can
hope to find and we rely on it often to bring to Justice those who have committed crimes I am very comfortable
that our conclusion that this evidence has Vindicated your family is based firmly on all the evidence including the
reliable forensic DNA evidence that has been developed as a result of advances in that scientific field during this
investigation we intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime with the sympathy doe you because of the
horrific loss you suffered otherwise we will continue to refrain from publicly discussing the evidence in this case we
hope that we will one day obtain a DNA match from the cotus data bank that will lead to further evidence and to the
solution of this crime with recent legislative changes throughout the country the number of profiles available
for comparison in the cotus data bank is growing steadily law enforcement agencies are receiving increasing
numbers of cold hits on DNA profiles that have been in the system for many years we hope that one day soon we will
get a match to this perpetrator we will of course contact you immediately perhaps only then we will
begin to understand the psychopathy or motivation for this brutal in sensus crime respectfully Mary T Lacy district
attorney 20th Judicial District Boulder Colorado there's there's been a profile in codus for like 20
years with no hits no hits not a single one and you know there's an ABC News article saying that they checked that
profile against everyone in the family along with 200 other potential suspects as well and all of them have been
excluded from this profile in that same article actually Mary Lacy kind of gives her Theory which
I believe is is like close if not exact to what the ramsy subscribed to which is
that while they're out at the Christmas party or not the Christmas dinner at the
whites someone snuck into their home wrote that note like laid in wait they had plenty of time and when the ramies
got home they waited for everyone to go to bed so they could go upstairs where jany was sleeping and grab her L Smith
also strongly believed that a stun gun was used to subdue her I'm sure that like this Theory like of this theory has
become pretty popular yeah aren't there like two like little marks that are right next to each other on her back
that Lou said like look like they could be St gun marks or something yeah now so
there's the two marks there's no burn marks which I said to be really common with stun guns which is maybe why the
original pathologist just noted them as abrasions it was you know to go there's like a lot of back and forth with this
like was it was it a sun gun was it not loci's like confident so there's 's actually this point where it's
recommended to the ramsy like oh we should exume Jean Benet and have someone else look at her to to confirm that like
now that we've got this idea like would could someone else like look at this I I
don't even say with a more critical view but like with that in mind the ramies don't want to do that now keep in mind
this is happening like a lot closer too so like there's like it's not like we're
talking years so it would have been like useful timing wise something might have
been there yeah there's still a lot of value in it Lou Smith to be really on board with this like yes let's do an
exam let's get a second autopsy but I think it was Barbara Walters when John and paty went on um they were just
saying like we don't want to have her exed like it we just buried her like that is a lot of trauma yeah it's too
painful like we we want our daughter to rest in peace and in their in in their mind they're like you have the original
pathology report you have pictures of this like everything we need is here for Lou to even come to this conclusion like
we don't need to exume her so with the Intruder Theory I get the what and the how of the idea like I
I think it like lines up it makes sense there's elements to it that make sense but I guess that leaves us with like the
two major questions left which is who and why which one do you want first uh let's
go with why so there's no one so there are two routes with the Intruder theory that I
have heard the Ramsay Camp discuss one is like this idea that this was a pedophile some kind of sexual deviant
all around scary mother roaming the Suburban streets of Boulder don't get me wrong like scary mother is like every
brand of the person who did this but like around this Ser what they point to is the paintbrush being put in her the
choking around her neck and I would hear Lou say that he believed she was hit in the head after
she was choked I think I said that like so all of that that's that's one potential Avenue Theory why the other is
that it was someone who hated John ramsy like the note was clearly about John everything was addressed to him like
when I sat down with him he even talked more about this Theory I feel like than the other total like a lot like he just
kept saying like they seem to hate him but then the sexual stuff doesn't really make any
sense it's like for best friends because literally like I asked him that and he and he agrees he's like I'm was like
okay but John if they're like if they if this is about you and your business and
they don't like you why did they have to do you're saying all of the other stuff
like was sexual it's not a staging it was sexually motivated so like why that doesn't make sense and he's like no like
I can't like both things can't be true at the same time yeah but I think I think what they've said before what I
think I think he would say and what I know they've said before is like you can't make sense of someone like this MH
so no we said that before we've said that before yeah so like no this like doesn't make sense to us but does that
mean it couldn't have happened like that you gave us two possible y's but without
really landing on one how do you even get to who I think it makes your list really long like really
long I know as part of like their defense team the rams's actually h John Douglas like the father of the ba John
Douglas to consult on the case and he firmly believes in their innocence like I actually asked him for an interview he
couldn't because of some family things but he like told us in an email that he was never asked to provide a written
profile to either the Ramsey defense or the boulder py but he provided his analysis verbally to both he thinks the
boulder PD even recorded it but he said he could tell that even when they were like hearing him they still seem
squarely focused on the family but he firmly believes in the Rams he said and I actually he gave us a quote to make
his position extremely clear there are no words that can describe what a family goes through when
their child is a victim of a violent crime however what is profoundly even worse on top of that is to have your
child murdered and then be wrongfully accused or even convicted of killing your child the ramies are not murdered
MERS but victims they are victims of investigative incompetence as well as intentional and prejudicial news
coverage I've worked many cases where parents have killed a child but this is not one of those
cases end quote so to go back to the who if you know this case you've heard that Santa did it
Santa Santa yep the the Santa we're talking about is the Santa from the Ramsay's Christmas party on the 23rd
there were a lot of really odd things about him his family like just like circumstantial things you're like oh my
God like those things it all just like lined up in a very strange way there was even supposedly John Benet who was even
telling people that like Santa was going to make a special visit to her after Christmas which was like a thing that
everyone pointed to a lot there were pedophiles that were found with in the pageant circuit like there is one that
surfaces to the top of the list but not until years later but when this like one comes about
it kind of like proved what people were screaming all along like very scary people were close to Jean Benet and
other children throughout pageantry because it's actually like the guy who was like her photographer for
her pageant stuff ends up being like a prolific pedophile like he has like wild imagery out the wazu so that there's
that whole segment of things there was this guy named Gary Oliva who like early days was said to have confessed to
killing Shan Panet and listen people want to say that paty's uh like handwriting is like a
close and again she's the only one that couldn't be excluded but like I saw this
dude's like Gary's handwriting and it's like scary close to the ransom note there's another guy named John marar I
don't remember John marar he confessed to killing some too I remember those headlines yeah but like that's that
that's what I remember cuzz I remember thinking when I was younger that it got solved yeah like oh my God this could be
it yeah and it was it was huge I remember being so huge because he was like living out of the country at the
time and here's the thing I like bits and pieces from the headlines from like what I was seeing cuz we were a little
bit older at that time but I never knew the full story about John Mark carp until I saw the Netflix stock that's
coming out November 25th and like we actually got early screeners like how they got to him was wild and like I I
know I've said this a thousand times people are going to get tired of me saying it like when you're deep in a
case like I could point to you think there's going to be like one person who looks so good for it but then I'm like I
could tell you stories of like five people 10 people who if I only told you about them you'd be 100% behind that
that's how it is like that's how it is with like Santa with her like pageant photographer with John markar like it's
a they go in deep and it's it is so interesting it's stuff I never knew I don't actually want to like spoil all of
that because like the Netflix doc is going to be out really close to when we releasing this so I I encourage everyone
to just like go watch that for yourselves I mean I don't want to we already we've already been here for so
long I don't want to spend too much time because at the end of the day we also know that no one's DNA has matched the
profile they have not even the pedophile John Mark Carr Santa Santa like like not
even the 200 people I told you they compared DNA to whoever this was their D their ghost and
without a name and a face to associate with the crime it has left a lot of room for old rumors
to maybe like surface again or at least like there's Rumblings underneath and those Rumblings got very loud in 2013
when the Daily Camera started reporting that years after the grand jury convened remember
the grand jury back in 1999 okay yes so we're in 2013 so they start saying like maybe
things weren't as they seemed and maybe Alex Hunter's words when he did his press conference were carefully
chosen hi crime junk I'm your host Ashley flowers and I'm Brit and every week we cover all kinds of True Crime
cases from the most infamous to to mysterious deaths and disappearances even cases you've never heard anywhere
else if you can't get enough of all things True Crime well you found your people and if you're like us and want to
make a real impact in these cases you're definitely a crime junkie so join us every Monday for new episodes you can
find crime junkie wherever you get your podcasts jurors confirmed to the Daily Camera that there was actually an
indictment that came out of those proceedings back in 1999 so here's how this came about a
reporter named Charlie Brennan and the reporters committee for freedom of press filed a lawsuit to have the documents
from the proceeding unsealed they had been sealed like most grandury things like since
1999 okay so when that happens there are 18 pages that get sent to a judge to review to see which ones could be
released and what needed to stay sealed to protect like what a grand jury is and
in total four four of those 18 Pages were released to the public count 7 on or about December 25th
and December 26th 1996 in Boulder County Colorado John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully knowingly and feloniously
render assistance to a person with intent to hinder delay and prevent the discovery detention apprehension
prosecution conviction and Punishment of such person for the commission of a crime knowing the person being assisted
has committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death as to
count seven accessory to a crime a true bill signature redacted no true bill count 4 a on or between December 25th
and December 26th 1996 in Boulder County Colorado John Bennett Ramsey did unlawfully knowingly recklessly and
feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's
life or health which resulted in the death of Jean Benet Ramsey a child under the age of 16 asked account 4 a child
abuse resulting in death a true bill signature redacted no true bill count 4 a on or between December 25th and
December 26th 1996 in Boulder County Colorado Patricia Paul Ramsey did unlawfully knowingly recklessly and
feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation which posed a threat of injury to the child's
life or health which resulted in the death of Jean Bay Ramsey a child under the age of 16 asked to count 4 a child
abuse resulting in death a true bill signature redacted count 7 on or about December
25th and December 26th 1996 in Boulder County Colorado Patricia Paul Ramsey did unlawfully knowingly and feloniously
render assistance to a person with intent to hinder delay and prevent the discovery detention apprehension
prosecution conviction and Punishment of such person for the commission of a crime knowing the person being assisted
has committed and was suspected of the crime of Murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death as to
count accessory to a crime a true bill signature redacted no true bill I don't know what the other counts were or why
they weren't unsealed but whoa like I mean how did the da get away with saying that they
didn't get an indictment because he didn't say that what he said and I'm going to it's important because like it
yeah the wording is specific on this line it is here so he said quote the boulder Grand Jury
has completed its work and will not return no charges have been filed the grand jurors have done their work
extraordinarily well bringing to Bear all of their legal Powers life experiences and shrewdness yet I must
report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to Warrant the
filing of charges against anyone who has been investigating at this time blah blah blah blah so it's
careful wording like he was going to say he stopped himself and this became a legal dust up
because some said by law he was required to sign the indictment and then if he wanted to move to dismiss the charges he
could have but just not signing them wasn't a thing he should have been able to do now other analysts say that the
law was more ambiguous I don't know I don't know if your head's hurting but mine is like and
listen the burden of proof to indict versus convict is like completely different mad different so indicting
just means like hey there's like the abundance of evidence says that something probably happened but when you
go to trial you have to be you to prove that it actually did buttoned up Beyond A Reasonable Doubt so I get an
indictment that doesn't necessarily lead to a trial but like other things in this
case it is the way that it was handled that just feels so shady so after this comes out the internet enters their Burk
era and here is where I like I do roll my eyes a little bit you guys like just because like it cannot be everyone I
feel like it can't be it can't be mom did it like because of a wedding accident and dad did it because like
she's getting molested and Burke did it because she ate the pine like it cannot be all of the things it can't be Santa
and a foreign faction and John Mark Carr like it feels a little like the world kind of just like latches onto a theory
for a while and if that doesn't go anywhere or they get bored they like pick a new thing but it's not things
like all of these are real people who I say again cannot all be guilty or all murdering her so I don't think we have
the right to say that we know what happened when we just straight up do not know what
happened but at this point in our story like the world is coming for Burke and maybe I I think a small part of it like
that at least like spawns this this isn't like a brand new idea but like the way the certain indictments that they
did release those counts they were ones about assisting about placing her In Harm's Way like not actually like
indicting you for murder yourself and so I think it gets people being like okay well if it wasn't them like who
would they be assisting who would they be protecting and the only other person that we know of in that home was her
9-year-old brother and this reaches like Peak crazy in 2016 when two things happen one Burke goes on Dr Phil and two
CBS releases this like ridiculous special reinvestigating the case do you remember that I remember both of these
things yes so like I hate to ruin TV for everyone they legit did zero reinvestigating it was basically just
like one of the books that had been written forever ago just like rehashed they were all just like sitting around a
table getting paid but they say that in this like reinvestigation they have this
like revolutionary theory that Burke was up that night eating pineapple John B tried to maybe like eat some he got mad
whacked her in the head with the flashlight and then like everything was staged to cover up for
him the pineapple we're finally at we're at the pineapple we're at the pineapple
okay so we know there's pineapple in her stomach that cannot be explained by any
version of any events that we've gotten every single story does not include pineapple agree I could spiral 4 days
here because without a doubt there is more to what happened that night that we just do not know like that like this is
the one thing I can point to to be like we don't have the full story right now it could be that she just got up and got
it herself or that someone else gave it to her it could be that someone in the house that could be someone in the house
it could be someone not in the house but she did not go right to bed and then die
like she ate pineapple pineapple we can all agree on that so there is a bowl of what looks like pineapple and condensed
milk next to a glass of tea on the table that was photographed by police like at
the house that day like when they're processing the scene when they fingerprint these things it's PSY and
burk's prints on the bowl and Burks prins on the tea neither claims to have gotten like gotten that out or eaten it
that night py suggests that maybe when they had everyone over like someone got that out like the morning of um because
she doesn't know where it came from I like I don't know why like this is like stuff in their home like I don't get
like too hung up on paty's Prince being on a bowl maybe unless like L they housekeeper put everything away but I
think about like unloading the dishwasher yeah or getting something out for Burke like
but they say but but yeah okay so we see this in a in an image we think that like
okay it could be the pineapple sheet it also might not be the pineapple sheet like you know what I mean it's it also
could just be someone else's pineapple yeah and then we still don't know where the pineapple in her stomach came from
but there's also a MAG light found on the counter in the house which has it's been theorized that it could be the
murder weapon but there's like zero forensic evidence on that Maglite to actually support that it's the murder
weapon no one knows why the light was taken out no one knows where it came from even they don't even know if it was
the ramsy at all but in the CBS thing they are sure that Burke hit John Bonet with this flashlight or some flashlight
and it must be true because they show another 9-year-old team kid hitting Aon with it it is yeah it's like awful 10
out of 10 detective in here guys so so that that's going to come out in 2016 before that comes out John Ramsey
gets a call he has a new lawyer by this point he has cozied up with a guy um who
who like they become or he or at least he's like with him legally for a long time he's his name is Lynn wood he's
also another fun Google if you have him in it Lynn has been representing John as
John and paty and like the family has been like suing the tablets who publish really defamatory things about the
family well Lynn wood knows Phil mcra AKA Dr Phil and so Dr pH supposedly according to John like gives them a call
and it's like hey heads up CBS the network that I'm on is about to do this show where they take aim at Burke like
you should you Burke should come on my show and like say your peace and Burke does and the world just eats that kid
alive yeah I remember watching this and it almost being painful to watch and then watching
happens after it was like even worse and I I feel like bad empathy for him because
like he's already going through a lot in his life and then to be on camera it changes
so much of like who you are how you react like what you say and he didn't like and keep in mind he didn't grow up
on camera no he was like sequestered is like the best word I can think of like we didn't see Burke in tabloids we
didn't see Burke on the news John said that something they were really intentional about they wanted him to try
and have like as much of a normal life as they could so they would really protect him they moved to Atlanta for a
while they end up moving um from Atlanta back to charlot boy so he like grows up
in this like small Michigan town and so so he's not used to a camera like it it does it comes off awkward it comes off
weird it's a little uncomfortable but like pick any number of reasons why that is and there's been like theorizing out
the woo but like someone's not guilty of something because they smile too much like right I'm sorry no no and I'm sure
the way that we saw like John and paty prep for their interviews I'm sure there was some prep here and like listen Dr
Phil was like throwing softballs like that's the one thing I will say and Burke got his point across like he says
he doesn't know what happened to his sister he certainly wasn't involved he said his parents were good parents and
that this is all a media circus that has like kind of ruined his family's life and I say all that like so there's
like so many things that I'm just like this interview means nothing he's like doing the best he can but then he says
this one thing that like I I'm like did I miss like what did I hear that right and I I like I actually just want to
play the clip for like it's better than me saying it I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put
you to bed and then you snuck downstairs to play yeah I had some toy that I wanted
to put together I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed and want to get this thing out did
you use the flashlight so you wouldn't be seen I don't remember I just remember being
downstairs I remember this toy did you hit your sister over the head with a baseball bat or a flashlight absolutely
not this is not a version of any story we've heard ever ever heard and I asked John
specifically about this because in my mind I'm like oh my God this is like if Burke is
downstairs when all this H like did he hear something did he see something and I asked John about this and again I go
back to like I know John and py did media training like I did they just like throw
Burke to the wolves like without it like and and Dr Phil says that John's the one
that told him this so I asked John about it and at first John John was like oh no
like that's so much has gotten misreported that's not real and I said no John like Dr Phil says you told him
this and then Burke responds and agrees and says yes I was downstairs and John just said like I
didn't know that so I asked him you know in our interview I was like I know people have talked to Brook like they
had a lot of child psychologists at the time trying to like you have to you have
to handle that really sense he's nine yeah I know those people were talking to him but did at any point you and paty
have conversations with him and like John like immediately shut it down he's like no there's no way he did this and
I'm like actually that's not what I'm saying I I know like when we were when we were young like we grew up with
siblings I'm like if if we if now there's a world where he's downstairs even if he wasn't say that all that was
like Dr Phil weird slip up there in my mind things that like kids see a relationship and a bond that like
siblings have and you don't necessarily like put the weight in them as a kid yeah and like like there are things like
I knew about my siblings or like I the I saw them in a different way than my parents saw them I saw the way that we
interacted with other people differently than my parents saw like also kids are like a tune to things like we like that
you notice so much yeah especially when like so many people are ignoring you as a kid like you just pick up on a lot
that I asked him I was like like there could be something he knows that he doesn't even know he knows if you've
never talked to him in all these years and John said that like he's confident that Burke would have told him if there
were something so I mean I think that you're like how do you how do you balance that of like trying to do right
by your one kid trying to get Justice for the other one and I think what he he is trusting that Burke would tell him
something if there was something to tell or if he if you know years and years and
years down the line if something comes to him like he's going to come for it it's his sister he he loved her the same
way the rest of his family would of so after that CBS special so Dr Phil then there's a CBS special Lynn wood
represents Burke in a $750 million lawsuit against CBS and in the suit they lay out what they what they call the
statement of fact and I will say they do try to correct the record here so on I mean there's like n like when they
statement a fact they like list these different things in number 29 it says that Burke exercised his
right a reasonable response by granting one interview to Dr Phil McGrath in which he denied any involvement in John
B's murder so I I actually think like there like there was a legal strategy even coming
into this because he would have either I believe if I'm understanding it right had to have give statement to CBS in
some way like in response to like the claims they were making or have like publicly stated it and he had never done
interviews before so he had to give an interview to someone so I think that was part of the reason he came forward when
Dr Phil gave him up call mhm like he needed some statement out there saying like he had nothing to do with his
sister's death now the other thing is it's number 130 and 131 it says that Burke was not awakened during the night
and Burke did not leave his bedroom during the night so unless those facts were challenged which I don't believe they
were because they ended up settling that kind of becomes the de facto record so even though we have Burke on
Dr Phil saying he went downstairs we have this like legal document where they're saying that the fact is he
didn't wake up and he didn't go downstairs and on paper that's I think the law right but I wish we could talk
to ask him yeah cuz I'm with you like I'm not saying he did anything but there is just so much yeah that my siblings
would do that I would do that they knew about that our parents just didn't see like it's as kids you kind of live in
your own world like yeah below the the line of sight of your parents in a certain
way I think if there's something to say that he can say he'll say it um I know he's met with investigators like so it's
not like he hasn't even like talked to police he did he's met with child psychologists you know we shared when we
met with John like we shared our information and obviously told him like if if Burke is open to talking I know he
doesn't do interviews um and John said you know he's an adult if he wants to do it like he will but we haven't heard
from him so I don't know to get back to your question of like how do you get to the
who I think you just start you've got to just start shipping away at this case I
think that's what certainly Lou Smith was doing with his work it's what his family continues to do again I'm going
to link to the podcast that I mentioned I think it's interesting they kind of go
person by person that they were actually like going out there and collecting DNA
samples from these people ruling them out one by one suspects that like I had never heard of and not even just the
usuals that I mentioned like Santa and John Mar Carr like Lou left this list behind that people like made up of
people he thought were worth looking into and in the order he thought that they should be looked into and so that's
what they're working off of but you I mean like you have to wonder if the name of Jean B's killer is even on even on
that list I know or if like has the other question I have is like has the DNA led us astray because there was this
thing that recently happened in Colorado that has me like all kinds of nervous for this case so in 2023 it came to
light that an analyst at the CBI lab this woman named yavon Missy Woods she was manipulating the DNA testing process
like this this investigation is still ongoing as of this recording in November 2024 so far they have found that she
omitted material facts in official Criminal Justice Records and tampered with DNA testing by altering or omitting
some test results from the case File so far they have't found any evidence that she falsified any DNA matches like thank
God so far but that is all from cases that she worked between 2008 and 2023 now they have to go back and look
at paper records from 1994 to 2008 so she was there the whole time of Jean B's case yeah and listen not all of the DNA
testing was done by like state agency like the longdong stuff came from bod but there was definitely some pretty
critical work that came out of the crime lab in the state which has me shook because if this is a DNA case like L
Smith and the ramsy say what do we do if the DNA was wrong this is not the answer that anyone
wants to hear but you have to start all over you have to I don't know if you can
now okay here here's two things so I'll say I asked John about this and he says that he's been told by like the people
who give him information over he's been told that confidently Missy Woods didn't
work on the Ramsey case like so he feels confident that the results have not been
skewed by whatever she was doing I I mean like in my mind the investigation is still on going so like
I don't know but he he told me he is confident he has been told that does not like
it's not applicable here like we don't have to worry about it but if we have to start all over like the good news is
like there's even better forms of testing right like you think about all the genealogy stuff that's being done oh
yeah now there's no mention of utilizing this technology to assist with the case
yet and John Ramsey said in my interview with him that he's afraid cuz he's trying to find out where the evidence is
like what can we do now right like starting over or not starting over like there's just new testing that needs to
be done yeah and he doesn't can't get a straight answer he says about if the evidence is secure where it is so he
doesn't know like his biggest fear is maybe someone lost it or maybe they're protecting someone # protect
Boulder I don't think anyone's looking out for Boulder anymore um but everyone says that they're committed to looking
out for John Benet I'll say that there was a cold case review um this team was brought in and like recently like 2023
they're said to made recommendations about how to move the case forward what those were if they're being acted on
unclear to me we did like I said we reached out to the DA's office and the boulder PD um surpris uh I've had
nothing juicy from them so obviously they declined my offer but they did give us
statements so the DA's office Pio said quote the murder of Jean Benet Ramsey was a tragedy our office has
successfully prosecuted Cold Case homicides and many other murder cases our office appreciates the continued
collaboration with cdps CBI the FBI and the Boulder Police Department as with any Cold Case homicide the overarching
goal is to look at the facts and evidence with fresh eyes and an open mind armed with the latest developments
in forensic science the presentation to the cold case review team generated helpful recommendations our office is
continuing to work with federal state and local agencies to make progress on this tragic case end
quote Boulder PD gave us this statement the killing of Jean Benet was an unspeakable crime and this tragedy has
never left our hearts Boulder police chief Steve Redfern said we are committed to following up on every lead
and we are continuing to work with DNA experts and our law enforcement Partners around the country until this tragic
case is solved this investigation will always be a priority for the Boulder Police Department because this is an
open and ongoing investigation the Boulder Police Department is unable to give any interviews or comment on
specific aspects of this crime we continue to investigate and encourage anyone with information to contact
detectives at Boulders mostwanted at bouldercolorado.gov or by calling the Boulder Police tip line at 303 4411
[Music] 974 as for John Ramsey he says that he is fighting for his daughter in the last
few years he recently started doing more interviews and his eldest son John Andrew has even gotten really involved
as well and they're both featured in the new documentary on Netflix they are pushing for authorities to do more
testing they've met with athum Labs themselves they feel that genealogy could be the thing that this case has
been waiting for if the evidence is still there and John hasn't gotten an answer about that
yet and that is where he asks for crime junkies help like I think it is something that no matter where you come
out on this case like this is something we can all get behind because there is unknown DNA there and we have to find
out who that belongs to because there is no world where anyone could be prosecuted in this case without that DNA
being explained now John also says that he encourages people to write to their Congressman about something called the
victim's families rights act it was signed into law federally by Joe Biden in 2021 but JN says that it needs to be
passed in each state and what this would do is it would allow family or families
of loved ones to request a federal review of their loved ones case after it's been cold for 3 years this is
something that he says that he wishes he would have had so I mean I asked him if
he's going to be pushing for this in Colorado he's moved out of state now but again the case is still there um
but he says that he doesn't have connections in Colorado anymore now John says that he has heard
that they're just waiting for him to die so that this case will go away but if I
believe one thing about this case it's that it's not going away anytime soon we are not going away we talked more about
John B's Legacy and like other stuff he's attempted to do in the past to like get things moving and there's a big
chunk of our interview that is around that so I would encourage people to go go watch that now that you're done with
this and you are done with this so like if you have made it till the end thank you for being a crime junkie um you guys
really being a crime junkie means more than just the headlines and there is still so much more to this case I would
encourage you to go check out the Netflix documentary it's dropping on November 25th 2024 it is called Cold
Case who killed Jean Benet and you can go right now to our YouTube if you're listening you could watch this episode
or you can go check out the interview that I have with John Ramsey it's available right
now did I I didn't tell you so when I was when I was there for the interview yeah I um I'm walking back from dinner
to my hotel and I like I see this restaurant and I'm like wait pasta past why why do I know pasta shut up I'm like
why do I know pasta JS and I'm like oh my God Ashley you've been living in the job Ramsey case like that's where they
had dinner on Christmas Eve yeah they're friends with with pasta J and I was like
that's so strange and so I'm like Googling I'm like I didn't know it was a franchise it's not a franchise it's it's
literally in Boulder and then where John lives and so the next day he said something about um I can't remember what
it was but he's like oh yeah my friend owns pasta JS and I was like yeah I was going to ask you about that I saw it
last night and he's like oh yeah and by the way Mike bam owns the hotel that you
were staying [Laughter] at we did it we did it

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Crime Junkie Podcast tackles the infamous JonBenét Ramsey case—a story they once vowed never to cover. Dive into the gripping episode as your host, the Queen of #TrueCrime, Ashley Flowers talks about DNA evidence, major theories, and who really may have killed JonBenét.

From the chilling 911 call to exclusive insights, Ashley and Brit deliver a deeper layer of understanding behind the investigation, the media frenzy, and the unanswered questions that continue to haunt this cold case and unsolved murder.

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About Ashley Flowers Ashley Flowers is the top female podcaster in the U.S. and the host of Crime Junkie, the #1 podcast among women and the #1 true crime podcast globally. As the Founder of audiochuck, she has built a top-tier podcast production company that has garnered over 2.6 billion downloads, captivating audiences with its gripping storytelling through 10+ chart topping podcasts. Ashley and her team are dedicated to creating responsible true crime content that respects victims and their families. — Key Episode Moments 0:00 - 0:27 - Crime Junkie Tour 0:28 - 3:22 - Intro 3:23 - 5:04 - 911 Call 5:05 - 8:00 - The Ransom Note 8:01 - 10:18 - Police & Friends Arrive 10:19 - 13:14 - Contaminating the Crime Scene 13:15 - 16:35 - Finding JonBenét 16:36 - 18:57 - Always Get a Lawyer 18:58 - 20:04 - Memorial Service & Atlanta 20:05 - 30:20 - CNN Interview 30:21 - 33:32 - Ramsey’s Police Interviews 33:33 - 36:48 - Media Frenzy 36:26 -50:54 - Evidence at the House 50:55 - 1:11:40 - JonBenét’s Autopsy 1:11:41 - 1:17:37 - The Ramsey’s Account of the Night 1:17:38 - 1:31:32 - Fleet & Priscilla White 1:32:32 - 1:40:19 - The Night Before 1:40:20 - 1:44:20 - The Day Of 1:44:21 - 1:46:55 - Tabloids 1:46:56 - 1:51:10 - Detective Theories 1:51:11 - 1:59:59 The Thomas Resignation & DA Rift 2:00:00 - 2:08:19 - The Fleet White Letter 2:08:20 - 2:12:07 - Grand Jury Conclusion 2:12:08 - 2:28:46 - The Ramsey House Purchase & Foundation 2:28:47 -2:37:40 - Chief Beckner Fake Email & The Stines 2:37:41 - 2:43:38 - Lou Smit’s Theory 2:43:39 - 2:55:17 - CODIS Profile 2:55:17 - 3:03:09 - Why & Who? 3:03:10 - 3:09:22 - The Indictments 3:09:23 - 3:21:56 - The Burke Theories 3:21:57 - 3:29:55 - Where It Stands 3:29-56 - 3:31:321 - Outro

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the John Benet Ramsey case, its impact on her family, and ongoing investigations into her murder.

Key points

The Ransom Note. Reading the threatening ransom note left for the Ramsey family.
Advice to Boulder Residents. In the wake of the kidnapping, a warning is issued to the community.
The Ransom Note Mystery. The ransom note raises questions about its authenticity and the circumstances of its writing.
Uncertainty of Abuse. Experts debate whether Jean Benet was abused, but definitive proof remains elusive.
John Ramsey's Denial. John Ramsey adamantly denies killing his daughter, expressing deep love and sorrow.
The Mysterious 911 Call. A hang-up call from the Ramsay home before the tragedy sparks speculation.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Everything that could go wrong was going wrong.

Describing the chaotic crime scene response.

15:25WatchNov 22, 2024

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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