Heather Kullorn /// Part 2 /// 676 | Forensic Files

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[Music] [Music] thank you [Music] blood evidence found in the apartment the apartment where a missing 12 year
old Heather colorne police are on the scene very early July 15 1999 trying to figure out what happened and where is
this little girl we talked about yesterday Captain how the blood that was found on the ground near this apartment
was quickly determined to belong to a neighbor there was a man out and he was bitten by a dog bled that's the blood
that they find outside of the apartment they found blood inside the apartment in
question but they were going to send it off to be tested to confirm if in fact it was Heather's blood we can skip ahead
these tests take a little bit of time but just a clue everybody in they do determine yes in fact this was Heather's
blood now what we don't have is a situation where Dana or Christopher are trying to
explain away that blood why would we find Heather's blood in your apartment of course she had been staying there for
a handful of days before she went missing but we don't have anybody saying she cut her thumb or there was an
accident and she bled at some point at some place in the apartment and I say someplace because the reports
about where the blood was found and how much blood was found it's a little all over the shop there
Captain right there's one report that states that there was a small amount of blood that was found on the couch
there's another report that states that blood was found on the couch on a floor a portion of the floor Carpeting and a
portion uh some blood was found on one of the walls now I don't want to jump here and make the leap
assuming that that means that a lot of blood was found in the apartment but it is interesting that this other report
states that blood was found in more than one location this is information that the police are clearly going to want to
keep to themselves and for for the reason being that they have multiple suspects you said it yesterday
Christopher Herbert the man who lives at the apartment had been there for about a
year says he left at 10 30 that night yeah gets back at four but he changes his story multiple times like a real piece
of [ __ ] they're not calling him a suspect and I don't fault police for that and I and here's why I do what
you're getting is you're getting the reporters asking you questions yes you want some information to go out to the
public because and until you have evidence that leads you to believe that your missing person is dead or has been
killed you have to work your investigation under the assumption that she is still
alive now in this case you are hoping to not single out a suspect because you do not want to limit
the public you don't want to put blinders on the public and they go well they got a suspect he must have done
something with that girl he he must have put her somewhere he must have hid the body somewhere and and it's only a
matter of time until they find the body and then boom cuffs go on Christopher Herbert
you don't want to lock yourself into that now what you are getting is those reporters saying
uh what did the people that live at the apartment tell you oh well Christopher Herbert he's got uh conflicting stories
right is he a suspect no he's not a suspect at this time yeah but this is this is why I
have a problem because you can make the statement that everyone is a suspect at this time so you're not singling him out
you're not but you're not eliminating him and I think just like you said well you don't if you single him out then
maybe you don't get as much cooperation but I think once you state well at this time he's not a suspect well what if
there's pieces of evidence uh people saw something in the apartment and they're like well he's not a suspect so even
though I saw this thing or even though I know this information about Christopher
I'm not going to come forward so I do think it has the reverse effect as well I think you're right and I again
though I think it goes back to the idea that if she were to be being held by somebody else or somebody else is
responsible you need that information too from the public you don't want to put blinders on
on the public and if you're unfortunately if you're law enforcement you can't control what the reporter puts
in their article you can you can answer their questions to the best of your ability right and they write the article
um so I just want to remind everybody too we don't just have a missing girl but we do have a missing item that that
comforter missing I do think it's very important well and not just missing item here's what's weird too remember we
talked about Mike Mason so what has been determined is that both Christopher Herbert and Mike Mason had drug a drug
habit a bad a pretty bad drug habit not only that they're manufacturing methamphetamine so we know this from
Christopher Herbert's statements to police we know this from frankly their their police record both of these guys
that had run-ins with the law prior both have had run-ins with the law after the
fact after Heather went missing and we know that they both had access to that garage it's been even reported that it's
a garage that they shared In fairness to these two we should be clear that there
could be other people that shared that garage with the with Mason and Herbert you never trust anybody that shares a
garage trust no that's right the thing here is we know that they found proof that
methamphetamine was being manufactured in that garage that these two shared so very quickly the concern and the belief
of police is a couple things they State and and you will like this Captain they won't name anybody but after a few weeks
goes by they do say hey we got we got some Suspects we they they don't give an exact number
they say we've got several suspects but they are clear that we have basically a handful of people that we
are looking at in this situation and we feel very strongly that the person or person's responsible is in
this group in this circle of people that we are are considering that we are monitoring they even say that they are
monitoring a few of their suspects we know that police were concerned about a couple things so there could be any
number of reasons why Heather was taken and they are stating very quickly in this investigation Foul Play
We have evidence to believe that there's Foul Play what is our evidence the blood
the blood comes back and yes it does belong to Heather it's not explained away when did that blood make it onto
the carpet the couch or the wall we don't know but as far as Herbert in Madden the two that occupy the apartment
are concerned it wasn't there when they left Madden at 10 at 10 pm and then Christopher at 10 30 p.m yeah my issue
with the mom having a relationship with Christopher and you said well this is not just a a male that uh unknown male
to the 12 year old but you're more likely a 12 year old girl is more likely to be sexually assaulted or
sexually abused by a a male that she knows and I just feel like it's not I wouldn't feel comfortable with my 12
year old daughter being alone in an apartment at night with this man that again is a known drug
user known drug seller known drug maker right but you're making the assumption that she knew about the drug use we
can't say that for certain what I can say 100 is in agreeance with you is I don't feel comfortable about any of this
situation minus the drugs as a parent the the drugs is just the icing on the cake of no you're not staying over there
sorry I'm not but I don't want to spend the remainder of the episode blaming the
mother because she made she made a bad decision in my mind she made a bad poor choice
and there's no there's never ever been anybody in law enforcement to even suggest or hint that Christine the
mother is a person of interest in The Disappearance of her daughter right so whatever happened according to
law enforcement whatever happened to Heather killorn happened between 10 p.m and 4 a.m that night and it took took
place whatever led to her disappearance took place it started in the apartment and we they're saying that because of
the blood that they found now remember they knocked on Mike Mason's door that that morning old Mike Mason they talked
to him they questioned him briefly and then they send him to go pick up Dana Mann from work now he tells police at
some point I actually believed that it was that morning there he goes out and starts
searching with Christopher Herbert and as the other officers are arriving so now you have
Herbert neighbors and police all actively searching together this small apartment complex this is when they
discover the paraphernalia in the garage but on this same morning we have a weird
statement by Mike Mason who says yes I've been in the apartment many times I've I know Heather
hung out with Heather uh you know hung out with the couple when they're in the presence of Heather
and he says oh by the way the toe chains to my vehicle they're missing and I'm going to assume
that the he he's stating this while they're searching the garage he does say though that you know maybe
somebody stole them and used them to dispose of the girl in the river he says that's his concern well so now we have a
missing 12 year old we have a missing comforter and now this neighbor that is sharing this garage is saying that his
toe chains for his vehicle are missing and then this is not a good sign no and and what's weird though too is we have
uh you're right they they have not in everyone's a suspect situation but they have a handful of suspects
and the problem is we end up with a list of named suspects and unnamed suspects so I had mentioned yesterday that there
was a fourth story right a fourth Christopher Herbert story this one too involves
some of the details that he gave and some of the other stories so in this story he says that he left
the apartment at 10 30 but this was to go to the garage the garage that he shared with Mike Mason he says that
there in the garage he and an unnamed individual were cooking up meth now for reasons it will get into it
sounds like this unnamed individual is not Mike Mason so he says that me and this
unnamed individual we were cooking up meth and at some point I left the garage took my vehicle and I had to go get more
supplies when I got these supplies I came back to the garage the guy was gone garage sealed up that's when I went to
the apartment heard my baby crying I go inside and Heather's gone right he tells
police that this man is dating a woman who owns a red BMW now why is that important he tells police that on at
least one occasion and it sounded to me like this may have happened more than one time that he had stole items from
that BMW that belonged to this man's girlfriend and he floated out the idea maybe in some kind of retaliation like
me and this guy and his girlfriend we don't have the best of relationships we're known drug users and Drug makers
and that he had stole cash and other items from them that maybe in some kind of retaliation
when he went off to go look for items to make more meth that they took Heather so the weird part here Captain is even
though this man is unnamed to the public police know who this guy is right police
interviewed him police interviewed his girlfriend police searched their property and the BMW yeah the vehicle
and police said we found no evidence that Heather was ever in their possession the apartment complex is
small but a red BMW especially in this area would be something that you'd think would
stick out like a sore thumb a big giant sore thumb but a three foot tall red sore thumb swollen it was swollen
but we don't have other eyewitnesses of this vehicle and here's the other problem
police say remember one of other one of Christopher's other stories is that he was at the park near the river I was in
a van down by the river partying with a friend and then later that morphs into well we might have been making meth
there too probably doing both they're probably partying and you know we're just having
a good old time cooking up meth and hanging out and shooting the [ __ ] they speak with that man what it's hard
for us to sort out is Christopher Herbert's does he have an alibi I get it that he's told multiple stories
to police but if one of those stories is hey I was cooking up meth with this guy who his
girlfriend owns a BMW we're we're out in the garage and then I left to go get supplies and look
it's difficult to believe that he would be gone for an extended period of time to get supplies but who who knows what
that entails well I've seen Breaking Bad okay so they we know according to police statements
they spoke to that man the man that supposedly Chris was in the garage cooking up meth with and then it is his
other story he's out partying at the park near the river with a guy an unnamed guy
they speak to this guy so what I'm getting at here Captain is even though he supplied different
stories to police look if he's cooking up meth or if he's doing drugs at night it does make sense that the first story
he's going to give is oh I left to drive somebody home when I came back hours later she was gone
right it's not uncommon at all that a person who is perfectly innocent of the crime that you're investigating is
covering up some other lesser crime in his whereabouts or what he was doing that night yeah but the problem is at
some point you have to go okay okay okay okay let me tell you the truth you know
right and smoking some crack over here and uh giving hand jobs out well and I don't know what order these stories came
out to police but he gave conflicting reports what I'm getting at here Captain is like how you say that I don't know uh
what order these four stories came out yeah I mean I don't but what what I'm saying here is does he have an alibi
because in every one of his stories he is attempting to provide an alibi attempting to provide reasons why he is
not there and three of the stories he gives you another person who he was with for a large portion of that time
and you have spoke to police have said that they even though they've not named these individuals that they spoke to
both of these individuals what I'm getting at does that mean he has an alibi because you know who doesn't have
an alibi is Mike Mason I think it ought to then becomes determined on how much as law enforcement do you believe these
other individuals and I think just in this situation if I'm investigating a disappearance of
a 12 year old girl and look she needs to be tested she needs to take insulin daily by the second or third day
I I hate to say this but you're going to start assuming the worse she's an endangered missing but when you're
talking to all these individuals they all become suspects and because of their drug use I just
don't know how much I can believe them at all right I'm going to need some more concrete evidence
so if you tell me you went to go get supplies I need a receipt oh I can't find one
you know if you say you're with this individual I need more than his word no I get that but what I what I'm also
trying to to focus in on here is I mean law enforcement could have that other piece of evidence
well exactly yeah but but that's what I'm saying it's hard for us to sort out what's going on because we don't know if
Herbert has an alibi if Herbert has an alibi so so the way that the case stands today is this police say they they
basically believe that they know who did it that they once had several suspects now they have a prime suspect an unnamed
Prime Suspect unnamed to the public right and their Prime Suspect is an individual that they have some evidence
against that they gave a polygraph test to and this individual failed the polygraph test that's as much
information as they've given about their Prime Suspect what I'm trying to point out here though is yes I get that
they're drug users yes I get that they're drug makers and likely drug Sellers as well what I'm saying though
is if you if you receive two different stories from one individual that oh I was in the garage hanging out with this
one dude and then the the other version of that same story I'm in the park hanging out with this other dude and you
identify those people and you spoke to both of them what happened did both of them tell you that he was hanging out
with them because that couldn't have happened what would be both happening at the same
time or did one say I don't know why yes I know Christopher Herbert yes we're friends we hang out uh he maybe he asked
me to cover for him but no I didn't see him that night I'm trying to sort out here if he has an alibi the reason being
because well I don't know I'm not we don't enforcement we don't need well law enforcement doesn't know either they
would have if they knew who killed Heather killorn would be having a whole different story here today well again we
know in a lot of cases the law enforcement knows they just can't can't prove it and I and could you imagine not
not you know this is where I feel bad horrible I feel awful for the mother because as she's learning this
information again we we don't know how much I look I would I would assume that if they're so deep into drugs that
they're making meth but this could be a new revelation in his life oh I just had
a child I need to make more money this is my dumbass plan hmm is to cook up some meth
so that could be a new revelation in in her friend's life but your law enforcement
you're looking for this 12 year old girl you show up to the scene now everybody you're talking to has conflicting
stories and they're all involved in drugs on some level you can't be feeling good about the
outcome of this situation no no and police have been clear very early on they've stated a few things so one they
say foul play was certainly involved in the Abduction of this girl she didn't walk off on her own two this is we're
treating this as a homicide even though we don't have a body and three We Believe whoever is
responsible knew Heather Heather knew them or the person has a direct tie to that apartment to where Heather was that
night the the reason why I'm trying to sort out this Christopher Herbert Alibi portion is because it doesn't have to be
a single individual that's responsible for what happened to Heather or where she may be found because the problem is
you have Mike Mason who could be perfectly Innocent but he does not have an alibi Christopher Herbert provides
several different stories but Mike Mason if he's innocent he doesn't need it it doesn't matter if
he's home alone by himself from 10 P.M to 4 a.m it doesn't look so good but the the issue I have with some of the
stories is this Herbert obviously has access to that apartment Mike Mason has been in that
apartment and knows Heather so he fits into the mold of what they are stating is the person they are looking for is
the suspect does he have access to get into that apartment without Christopher Herbert being there right because he has
access to the garage when Heather yeah would Heather let him in does he have a key to the apartment there was no forced
entry no signs of forced entry into the apartment that night right we know that police vetted the BMW people
and they don't seem to be so interested in them so where I think the case sits is one of
two things either Mike Mason or Christopher Herbert or the two of them together right you you grab the girl and
I'll be in the car and because it's a little weird that two of the four stories that Christopher
Herbert gives says that he's at a park that is near the river and then the flip of that is you talk to
Mike Mason and he says oh my my toe chains are missing uh I'm worried that somebody might have
used them to to dispose of of the girl in the river okay so we got two people both
referencing the river I'm gonna say something and maybe you will pick up what I'm putting down
I almost lean towards an outside individual and and here's why we have a comforter missing
if if it was Christopher killing his wife and he put her body in the comforter he
doesn't have to explain the missing comforter away to anybody law enforcement shows up they don't know the
comforters missing but this 12 year old girl something happens he wraps her up in the comforter
now he's gonna have to explain this away to his wife but if it's an outside source
then they just oh they just use whatever you just would kind of use whatever is just around and you wanna you wanna give
a [ __ ] if that makes any sense right you would just grab what's there to wrap up
the the package to remove it from the apartment yeah I'm just saying if it was your apartment and you know your wife is
coming home you might take a second to think a little bit more about how you're going to dispose of this body
yeah I I see what you're saying I do pick up what you're putting down but I don't know that that points to to
innocence for Christmas or I I think the way that this probably goes down Captain
is that they they're canvassing the area this neighbor tells the story of hey I witnessed this
this is what I saw and then now police are going okay it wasn't obvious that anything was missing from the apartment
other than Heather but we have this statement from the neighbors and now you have potentially have Dana and
Christopher going oh yeah we are missing a blanket or we are missing a comforter
uh now now that you you asked that question there was a similar blanket or comforter that was found in a
park I had a hard time tracking down when it was discovered right it sounds like it was fairly close to the time
that Heather went missing that the thing though is police were never able to 100
percent determine if that comforter came from the apartment so uh they they recover this comforter
or blanket it's often described as a blanket and what was missing from the apartment is often described as a
comforter but from my understanding they showed this to Dana Madden and she was unable to identify it 100 as
being the the missing item from their apartment so that seemed that's a little inconclusive but it's hard to believe
her too because she would have an agenda on why she wouldn't want to cooperate with law enforcement you're exactly
right but what we do have at one of our crime scenes is Heather's blood and you would think that if she was immediately
bloodied dead or a sleeping unconscious whatever I don't believe she'd be sleeping unconscious would be a better
term and then removed in a in a comforter used to remove her from the apartment as
we said with the potential eyewitness right I would think that police might not need
to ask Dana if this is your comforter blanket if they found blood or Heather's blood on that so it sounds like no blood
on the on this item and that's why we need the owner one of the owners to potentially identify it
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off your first month that's betterhelp h-e-l-p Dot com slash garage [Music] all right we are back back to our story
of a missing 12 year old with a bunch of suspects that are piles of [ __ ] well and you know what and
I'm not going to put anything on the St Louis Missouri police we'd be remiss if we didn't point out
that almost a thousand homicide and missing persons cases have gone unsolved in St Louis since 1980. this is
according to their own statistics that's too many um almost 30 cold cases from the 80s and
the 90s have been solved by the department this in 2021 thanks to the application
of modern forensic Tech techniques and evidence now we say that and that was my concern at first with
this case because you can see why this is a complicated case you have people telling different stories you have two
individuals that it looks like on the surface have no alibi I think they have a better understanding of Christopher
Herbert and where he was and what he was up to that night than we do 100 I believe that right this case man they've
worked this case really good they put a lot of effort into this case some things
that they did really smart uh they did bring in other agencies to assist what I find you know through looking into these
cases every every week is that if you have a criminal with a level of sophistication
makes the crime a lot harder to solve right for law enforcement but also seems like if
the suspects are such dumb asses that that makes the the case even more complex does that make any sense it's
interesting you say that because more than one occasion I've heard a detective say well not the same detective but
different detectives in different situations say he's too dumb to lie he's too dumb to
not tell us the truth right and that comes with experience I can't explain that statement but I can I could tell by
the the individual telling me that by the sound of their voice by the look on their face they believed it let's fast
forward about two and a half years after Heather goes missing so there were remains found in a creek near St Louis
in March of 2002 police were hopeful that these might be the remains of Heather killorn it sounds like they very
quickly within a day or two were able to determine that no that was not the remains of Heather then
the following month in April of 2002 police went on record stating this was the first time that I
saw this this is the first time they come out and say you know what we're pretty certain we know who did this we
just need some evidence we we need a little more evidence and here's the problem when you talk about a homicide
investigation even in 2023 uh so even more importantly in 99 2000 2001 and 2002 you don't have a body it
gets very difficult to bring forth charges now we talked about the blood in that apartment we have seen and we have
covered cases right Captain where you do not have the actual remains right but you have enough blood at your crime
scene where a medical expert can come in and say this amount of lost blood this person was killed here
you mean it belongs to this person this person was killed you're looking for a body you can't find it but I can
scientifically prove that this person is no longer with us and therefore you can
bring up murder charges so when we question the amount of blood one thing we do know is it was not enough
that was found in the apartment for someone to come forward a medical expert to tell us that Heather was killed in
that apartment yeah so in simple terms you don't have the evidence of the victim's body but you have evidence that
there was a murder they have evidence of Foul Play and then they this is what's interesting I think they were really
hoping then somebody would crack right maybe not the Killer maybe not the person 100
responsible somebody on crack might crack but somebody that knows the true story maybe they were told this
by the perpetrator maybe they witnessed something maybe they participated in something
but they wanted to keep the heat the heat was hot they wanted to keep it turned up let's Crank It Up to 11. yeah
and so they announced this to the public right you can see the efforts that in this
this as George W bush would say the strategory involved March of 20 02 body found
that was if it would have been Heather that would have advanced their case turns out not to be Heather
here's our opportunity right here's if there's some if the Killer is out there and is paying attention to this case
or his friends or anybody that may have helped him or paying attention to this case well they're all going to get a
little nervous because now the body's been found after a couple days it's determined it's not Heather so what do
we do use that strategory and come out within 30 days and tell the newspapers yeah
we know who did this we just need a little more evidence keep the heat cranked up to 11. you sit
back and you wait to see if somebody comes out to tell you a story tell you something you didn't know or present
some evidence to you it'd be a great time to bring people back in for even this simple questioning I'm sure that
they did that because here's what happened next whatever they were looking for whatever
they were hoping to get led to Heather's body or told the story of where she was
disposed of that likely didn't happen keep the heat cranked up to 11 right the following
month they bring in the FBI FBI come in and take a look at this case conduct your own independent
investigation we will supply you with everything we have and then tell us what you think happened
so the FBI comes in they examine everything they put together an offender profile they they profile the whole the
whole case the whole scenario none of this information other than the FBI being brought in and conducting their
own independent investigation is released to the public so we don't know what their findings were we don't know
what kind of profile they came up with but what I can sit here and say and you know this Captain just as well as I do
we've seen this in dozens of cases police are pretty certain that they know what happened
a couple years go by they're not able to close the case or make an arrest you bring in an independent investigation
somebody like the FBI or BCI or we've seen it with gbi and all the other eyes that are out there yeah or the MF FBI
yeah as many eyes as you can put on the case right we're not talking about eyeballs we're talking about the the
letter I I just love to be questioning somebody and go you know what we just did we just brought in the MF FBI yeah
could be going What the [ __ ] FBI and we're starting just so you know we're starting up the tcgi
True Crime garage investigations um and we're cheap so Dirt Cheap we work for beer uh you bring in the FBI they
conduct their own investigation you don't release any of that information to the public and you know why and we've
seen this a dozen of times we've been told this from other investigators we brought in the FBI on our case
you don't need to tell the public anything because guess what happened they came to the
same conclusion that they the the police came to we don't need to release the offender
profile because they came to the same conclusion that we did and I'm certain that this has happened
in this case and I think that really you could probably narrow down your suspects
to two or three people it's Christopher Herbert it's Mike Mason or an unknown individual
and it could be more than one person within that group of three we could have two or three people who
were resp who's to say that Christopher Herbert didn't have a bunch have Mike Mason and a friend over and they decided
to just party at the house right or they're in the garage cooking up meth and then Heather stumbles onto this and
and now we feel like we have something we got to cover up do we know if the couple is still together I don't think
's married at the time in the the only thing that I have to base that off of Captain is that Christopher Herbert
spent a good amount of time in in and out of prison so I'm guessing that holding down a
relationship is going to be a little difficult when you when you locked up yeah um we also know that Mike Mason has
spent a good deal of time in prison as well surprise surprise yeah and so what what's interesting though is Mike Mason
is not shy to talk to police or even the media about this case now that doesn't that doesn't sway me either way
on his innocence or guilt yeah stuff like that to me it's like that could mean everything or nothing exactly you're
exactly right I hope it didn't come off that I was just harping on Heather's mother but I do know that there's been
times that Heather's mother has confronted these individuals yes because because when you're not getting in a
straight story you'd obviously become more suspicious and you're leaving your daughter in the hands of two
individuals that you thought were your friends you thought that she would be safe over there
and obviously she wasn't yeah so this is a this is one of the more fun parts of the story I guess is a
really dumb way for me to describe it but there you have it Christine was actually arrested and this was a
handful of months after Heather went missing and Christine firmly believed I'm guessing that she had a good idea or
or had a very strong Theory but a large portion of whatever it is that she believed it's unclear of who she
thought was 100 responsible but it's very clear that she believed that Dana Madden her friend that the
police again confirmed that she was at work that night arrived on time she believed that her friend Dana Mann
knew more than what Dana was telling to police and telling to Christine right and this infuriated her this is a
conversation she she attempted to have many times with her friend Dana clearly she didn't think she was getting the
information that she deserved or or should be told and so she goes to Dana's place of work at the gas station one
night with a baseball bat demanding to know what happened to her daughter and Dana locks herself in a back room in
the back room so that Christine can't get to her calls police and then Christine's arrested
and this for you know menacing or public endangerment something of the Republic um
I don't know exactly what the charge was but we know that she was arrested and charged with something now
unfortunately Christine's no longer with us she she died in her 50s not knowing what happened to her daughter Heather
she did work you can see if you go back through all of the media stuff she spent
her remaining days trying to figure out what happened to her daughter she she spent a lot of time working with other
foundations the class Foundation the poly class Foundation out of California I believe but we see this in a lot of
cases to you know not knowing and feeling possibly responsible and knowing that there's people out
there that possibly have these answers it's like a cancer and we we see it in a lot of cases
whether the the victim is found or not I mean JonBenet Ramsey mother dies Young in this case
mother dies young and and uh Amy mihalovic case mother dies young it's I mean it's
it's a it's horrible and it's just another victim in this crime yeah and I think where the
case stands today captain we're talking about Dana Madden's Alibi confirmed verified by police she was working that
night and police seemed to firmly believe that Heather was alive and well at 10 pm on the 14th and
that something happened to Heather between 10 p.m and 4 a.m on the 15th Christopher Herbert again for reasons
we've discussed that at length it's very difficult to nail down what the true story is we do know that that
they did speak with two of the individuals separately that he was supposedly with
that night it would be very interesting to know if either of them confirmed or denied being
with Christopher Herbert that night it'd be interesting if both of them confirmed
to be with Christopher Herbert that night because if you're supposed to be in different places at the same time
with the same person guess what your two Alibis now become zero alibis yeah I normally have some hope a case
will get solved but I think in this one because of the the drug use the time of the
people of Interest you know time spent in prison chances of them finding the the the
remains I I I I just think I don't have a lot of Hope for this one unless somebody I
agree comes forward unless somebody knows something of substance something that they can prove to police
then I I just don't have a lot of Hope in this one well and I was all but determined to show up at the garage
today here hang out with you Captain jump up on my giant soapbox and scream it from the top of the mountains that I
think that that Christopher Herbert is suspect a number one or he and Mason something happened
there there's a very likelihood that whoever's responsible did not intend to kill
Heather killorn that something happened and they they took measures to dispose of the body
afterwards there's a likelihood that that's a possibility there's a likelihood that somebody did intend to
kill her it's difficult to say based off of the evidence but I was determined to
come in here and say you know what I think the most likely scenario is that the Christopher Herber and Mike Mason
did this together Gotta Give a big shout out here Captain to Stephen Pacheco who
does the trace evidence podcast there's been some storytelling and some some coverage
of this case outside of St Louis as far as YouTube goes but as far as podcasts go trace evidence was the only one that
I could find that covered it at length he always does a good job over there he pointed out something that really kind
of it didn't totally squash my thought my theory that maybe the two of them did it together because the the
thing that I have a hard time getting past is that Christopher Herbert never says he's with
Mike Mason yet he's at a park near the Mississippi River Bank near the Mississippi River
and then Mike Mason tells police oh my toe chains are moving I'm worried that somebody used these chains to
weight down the girl and and dispose of her in the Mississippi River like it seems I get it that the river's right
there but it seems a little weird that these two guys would have this one element in both of their
stories separately and so I wondered if maybe one helped the other with a problem oh I got you know this
happened this happened I didn't mean for it to happen now I got to get rid of this uh-huh if something like that
occurred and again trace evidence Stephen Pacheco doesn't completely squash my theory but brings
up a good a good and and impressive observation you got two guys that are in and out of prison on lesser charges some
of them facing years because they're repeat offenders it would make a whole lot of sense that
that person a would turn on person B for a plea bargain in some other lesser crime
and say look right law enforcement if you can if you can help me out I can help you out well that's a that that's a
very intelligent point to point out the other thing too when we're talking about
media coverage this is not necessarily in Heather killorn's case but if you start digging into this case
there unfortunately is a lot or were a lot in a period of 10 years in this Greater St Louis area of
children going missing and there many of these stories are much different than the Heather killorn case
Heather killorn was at that apartment whatever happened to her happened it started in that apartment where she
ended up we don't know but a lot of these other kids were abducted while they were walking home
getting off the school bus out riding a bike and unfortunately it appears that there
was probably about three different child killer child abductor offenders operating in this area within about a 10
to 20 year time period so in some weird way she kind of becomes just another face on
a milk carton where they cover these stories in the newspaper year after year and you see her face her name the
details of her case of Heather's case piled on three four five other cases that were
still outstanding in one of those cases was a young girl by the name of Angie houseman
and Angie houseman's case is weird when you look into it Captain because it's like they her case went
unsolved for so long and it was such a mystery for so long that anytime another kid came up missing
they investigated the possibility if Angie houseman's case was related to the latest missing kids case right and that
too was true with Heather killorn we'd know 100 that no that's not the situation
I shouldn't say 100 let's go with 98 but we have police telling us in Heather killorn's case her the person
responsible knew Heather Heather knew them in Angie houseman's case they were able to finally solve her case
using DNA evidence in the person responsible for that was Earl Webster Cox who was actually serving life in
prison when they connected him to the Angie Houseman case many many years later now if you want to learn more about that
case there's a great coverage on the Angie Houseman case and that was on the Case with Paula Zahn the TV show season
23 episode 7 which aired in September of 2021. yeah one of the things that is very interesting and you have to applaud
police for this is that they spent time monitoring these individuals uh for a time period to try to solve
this case yes an extended period of time that that cost a lot of money man hours
and resources to monitor individuals so unfortunately captain and unfortunately garage listeners
Heather's disappearance remains unsolved and Foul Play is strongly suspected as the captain pointed out there's been a
group of people a group of suspects over the years who have been monitored in connection to Heather's disappearance
but no one has been officially labeled as a suspect we do have police saying that they believe they have a prime
suspect and that their prime suspect they have some evidence against and one piece they believe is that that this
individual failed a polygraph examination no arrests have been made in this case
Heather who disappeared while babysitting for the infant daughter of family friends Christopher Herbert and
Dana Madden she's of course abducted sometime during the night or early morning hours this is
what police have told us and this is where the case stands to this day this is a case that I think that if they find
the right evidence that we might see this case Advance sometime soon we know that we are seeing success coming out of
the St Louis area on a lot of their cold cases remember in 2021 they solved 30 of
their cold cases in that year alone I'm hoping that Heather's case can be one that solved this year
[Music] [Music] thank you I want to thank you so much for donating to the Beer fund for
listening to the show for sharing and telling friends and families about the True Crime garage flying garage ship
Colonel do we have any recommended reading this week it's a little self-serving here Captain but I'm going
to recommend my book The Delphi murders the quest to find the man on the bridge the reason why we got a book signing
coming up this Saturday at hoof hearted in Marengo Ohio join me there if you can
from 2 to 4 P.M on Saturday I'll be selling and signing books if you already have one just bring it with you and we
will have a beer and a laugh together hope to see as many people there as possible that's this Saturday from two
to four at hoof hearted in Marengo Ohio yeah and if you need some lighter reading check out my book whoever smelt
it dealt it you can find that on Amazon Prime and until next week be good be kind and don't litter
[Music] [Applause] thank you [Music]

Heather Kullorn /// Part 2 /// 676

Part 2 of 2

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

This week we talk about a case that we fear has gone cold. There are good suspects in this case but have all of the possible leads dried up? Back in July of 1999, Heather Kullorn was babysitting an infant overnight. This is odd especially giving the ages. Heather was twelve and the infant was just a little over two months old. Given the ages an overnight babysitting gig does not seem appropriate at all. Heather disappeared in the middle of the night. Blood was found at the scene. The baby thankfully was alive and well when the parents returned home. Police were called and the authorities have been looking for Heather for over twenty years now. We believe the person or persons responsible have likely shared intimate knowledge of the case with someone. If you have any information regarding the disappearance of Heather Kullorn please call the St. Louis Police Department at 314-231-1212. To remain anonymous please call Crimestoppers at 1-866-371-TIPS.

Beer of the Week - Zipper Ripper by Hoof Hearted Brewing

Garage Grade - 4 and a half bottle caps out of 5

Check out our other show Off The Record available on Apple Subscription, right in the True Crime Garage Apple Podcast feed.

Brief Summary

Heather Killorn, 12, went missing in 1999; blood evidence and conflicting stories from suspects complicate the investigation.

Key points

Foul Play Suspected. Police confirm evidence of foul play in the disappearance of Heather.
Missing Items Raise Concerns. Multiple missing items linked to the case heighten suspicions.
Conflicting Stories. Everyone involved has different accounts of the events surrounding the girl's disappearance.
Foul Play Suspected. Police suspect foul play in the abduction of the girl, treating it as a homicide.
The Missing Comforter. A missing comforter raises questions about the circumstances of the girl's disappearance.
Blood Evidence. Heather's blood was found at the crime scene, indicating foul play.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to be seen and good to see you.

Host greeting listeners

0:57WatchJun 14, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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