Heather Kullorn /// Part 2 /// 676 | Forensic Files

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talk some true [Music] crime [Music] blood evidence found in the apartment the apartment where a missing
12-year-old Heather color police are on the scene very early July 15th 1999 trying to figure out
what happened and where is this little girl we talked about yesterday Captain how the blood that was found on the
ground near this apartment was quickly determined to belong to a neighbor uh there was a man out and he was bitten by
a dog bled that's the blood that they find outside of the apartment they found blood inside the apartment in question
but they were going to send it off to be tested to confirm if in fact it was Heather's blood we can skip ahead these
tests take a little bit of time but just to clue everybody in they do determine yes in fact this was Heather's
blood now what we don't have is a situation where Dana or Christopher are trying to explain away that blood why
would we find Heather's blood in your apartment of course she had been staying there for a handful of days before she
went missing but we don't have anybody saying she cut her thumb or there was an accident and she bled at some point at
some place in the apartment and I say someplace because the reports about where the blood was found and how much
blood was found it's a little all over the shop there Captain right there's one report that states that there was a
small amount of blood that was found on the couch there's another report that states that blood was found on the couch
on a floor a portion of the floor or Carpeting and a portion uh some blood was found on one of the walls now I
don't want to jump here and make the leap assuming that that means that a lot of blood was found in the apartment but
it is interesting that this other report states that blood was found in more than
one location this is information that the police are clearly going to want to keep to themselves and for for the
reason being that they have multiple suspects you said it yesterday Christopher Herbert the man who Liv at
the apartment had been there for about a year says he left at 10:30 that night yeah gets back at 4: but he changes his
story multiple times like a real piece of [ __ ] they're not calling him a suspect and I don't fault police for
that and I and here's why I do what you're getting is you're getting the reporters asking you questions yes you
want some information to go out to the public because until you have evidence that leads you to believe that your
missing person is dead or has been killed you have to work your investigation under the assumption that
she is still alive now in this case you are hoping to not single out a suspect because you do not want to limit the
public you don't want to put blinders on the public and they go well they got a suspect he must have done something with
that girl he he must have put her somewhere he must have hid the body somewhere and and and it's only a matter
of time until they find the body and then boom cuffs go on Christopher Herbert you don't want to lock yourself
into that now what you are getting is those reporters saying uh what did the people that live at the apartment tell
you oh well Christopher Herbert he's got uh conflicting stories right is he a suspect no he's not a suspect at this
time yeah but this is this is why I have a problem because you can make the statement that everyone is a suspect at
this time so you're not singling him out you're not but you're not eliminating him and I think just like you said well
you don't if you single him out then maybe you don't get as much cooperation but I think once you state well at this
time he's not a suspect well what if there's pieces of evidence uh people saw something in that the apartment and
they're like well he's not a suspect so even though I saw this thing or even though I know this information about
Christopher I'm not going to come forward so I I do think it has the reverse effect as well I think you're
right and I again though I think it goes back to the idea that if she were to be
being held by somebody else or somebody else is responsible you need that information too from the public you
don't want to put blinders on on the public and if you're unfortunately if you're law enforcement you can't control
what the reporter puts in their article you can you can answer their questions to the best of your ability right and
they write the article um so but I just want to remind everybody too we don't just have a missing girl but we do have
a missing item that that comforter missing I I do think is very important well and not just that missing item
here's what's weird too remember we talked about Mike Mason so what has been determined is that both Christopher
Herbert and Mike Mason had drug a drug habit a bad a pretty bad drug habit not only that they're manufacturing
methamphetamine so we know this from Christopher Herbert's statements to police we know this from frankly their
their police record both of these guys had had run-ins with the law prior both have had r run-ins with the law after
the fact after Heather went missing and we know that they both had access to that garage it's been even reported that
it's a garage that they shared In fairness to these two we should should be clear that there could be other
people that shared that garage with the with Mason and Herbert you never trust anybody that shares a garage you trust
no one that's right the thing here is we know that they found proof that methamphetamine was being manufactured
in that garage that these two shared so very quickly the concern and the belief of police is a couple things they State
and and you will like this captain they won't name anybody but after a few weeks
goes by they do say hey we got we got some suspects we they they don't give an exact number they say we've got several
suspects but they are clear that we have basically a handful of people that we are looking at in this
situation and we feel very strongly that the person or person's responsible is in
this group group in this circle of people that we are are considering that we are monitoring they even say that
they are monitoring a few of their suspects we know that police were concerned about a couple things so there
could be any number of reasons why Heather was taken and they are stating very quickly in this investigation Foul
Play We have evidence to believe that there's Foul Play what is our evidence the blood the blood comes back and yes
it does belong to Heather it's not explained away when did that blood make it onto the carpet the couch or the wall
we don't know but as far as Herbert and Madden the two that occupy the apartment
are concerned it wasn't there when they left Madden at 10 at 10 p.m. and then Christopher at 10:30 p.m. yeah my issue
with the mom having a relationship with Christopher and you said well this is not just a a male that she unknown male
to the 12-year-old but you're more likely uh a 12-year-old girl is more likely to be sexually assaulted or
sexually abused by a a male that she knows and I just feel like it's not I wouldn't feel
comfortable with my 12-year-old daughter being alone in an apartment at night with this man that again is a known drug
user known drug seller known drug maker right but you're making the assumption that she knew about the drug use we
can't say that for certain what I can say 100% is in agreeance with you is I don't feel comfortable about any of this
situation minus the drugs as a parent the the the drugs is just the the icing on the cake of no you're not staying
over there sorry I'm not I but I don't want to spend the remainder of the episode blaming the mother because she
made she made a bad decision in my mind she made a bad poor choice but doesn't mean she's a murderer and
there's no there's never ever been anybody in law enforcement to even suggest or hint that Christine the
mother is a person of interest in The Disappearance of her daughter right so whatever happened according to law
enforcement whatever happened to Heather color happened between 10 p.m. and 4:00
a.m. that night and it took took place whatever led to her disappearance took place it started in the apartment and we
they're saying that because of the blood that they found now remember they knocked on Mike Mason's door that that
morning old Mike Mason they talk to him they question him briefly and then they send him to go pick up Dan Dana Madden
from work now he tells police at some point I actually believe that it was that morning that he goes out and starts
searching with Christopher Herbert and as the other officers are arriving so now you have Herbert neighbors and
police all actively searching together this small apartment complex this is when they discover the paraphernalia in
the garage but on this same morning we have a a weird statement by Mike Mason who says yes I've been in the apartment
many times I've I know Heather hung out with Heather uh you know hung out with the couple when they're in the presence
of Heather and he said oh by the way the tow chains to my vehicle they're missing and I'm going to
assume that the he he's is stating this while they're searching the garage he does say though that you know maybe
somebody stole them and used them to dispose of the girl in the river he says that's his concern well so now we have a
missing 12-year-old we have a missing comforter and now this neighbor that is sharing this this garage is saying that
his tow chains for his vehicle are missing and not this is not a good sign no and and what's weird though too is we
have a you're right they they have not in everyone's a suspect situation but they have a handful of suspects and the
problem is we end up with a list of named suspects and unnamed suspects so I ADM mentioned yesterday
that there was a fourth story right a fourth Christopher Herbert story this one too
involves some of the details that he gave in some of the other stories so in this story he says that he left the
apartment at 10:30 but this was to go to the garage the garage that he shared with Mike Mason he says that there in
the garage he and an unnamed individual were cooking up meth now for reasons that we'll get into it sounds like this
unnamed individual is not Mike Mason so he says that me and this unnamed individual we were cooking up meth and
at some point I left the garage took my vehicle and I had to go get more supplies when I got these supplies I
came back to the garage the guy was gone garage sealed up that's when I went to the apartment heard my baby crying I go
inside and Heather's gone right he tells police that this man is dating a woman who owns a red
BMW now why is that important he tells police that on at least one occasion and it sounded to me like this may have
happened more than one time that he had stole items from that BMW that belonged to this man's girlfriend and he floated
out the idea maybe in some kind of retaliation like me and this guy and his girlfriend
we don't have the best of relationships we're known drug users and Drug makers and that he had stole cash and
other items from them that may be in some kind of retaliation when he went off to go look for items to make more
meth that they took Heather so the weird part here Captain is even though this man is unnamed to the
public police know who this guy is right police interviewed him police interviewed his girlfriend police
searched their property and the BMW yeah the vehicle and police said we found no
evidence that Heather was e ever in their possession the department complex is small but a red BMW especially in
this area would be something that you'd think would stick out like a sore thumb a big giant sore thumb but a three foot
tall sore thumb uh red sore thumb swollen it was swollen but we don't have other eyewitnesses of this vehicle and
here's the other problem police say remember one of other one of Christopher's other stories is that he
was at the park near the river was in a van down by the river partying with a friend and then later that morphs into
well we might have been making meth there too probably doing both they're probably partying and you know we're
just having a good old time cooking up meth and hanging out and shooting the [ __ ] they speak with that man what it's
hard for us to sort out is Christopher Herbert's does he have an alibi I get it that he's told multiple
stories to police but if one of those stories is hey I was cooking up meth with this guy who his girlfriend owns a
BMW we we were out in the garage and then I left to go get supplies and look it's difficult to believe that
he would be gone for an extended period of time to get supplies but who who knows what that
entails well I've seen Breaking Bad okay so they we know according to police statements they spoke to that man the
man that supposedly Chris was in the garage cooking up meth with and then in his other story he's out partying at the
park near the river with a guy an unnamed guy they speak to this guy so what I'm getting at here Captain is even
though he supplied different stories to police look if he's cooking up meth or if he's doing drugs at night it does
make sense that the first story he's going to give is oh I left to drive somebody home when I came back hours
later she was gone right it's not uncommon at all that a person who is perfectly innocent of
the crime that you're investigating is covering up some other lesser crime in his whereabouts or what he was doing
that night yeah but the problem is at some point you have to go okay okay okay okay let me tell you the truth you know
right and smoking some crack over here and uh giving hand jobs out well and I don't know what order these stories came
out to police but he gave conflicting reports what I'm getting at here Captain is like how you say that I don't know uh
what order these four stories came out yeah I I mean I don't but what what I'm saying here is
does he have an alibi because in every one of his stories he is attempting to provide an
alibi attempting to provide reasons why he is not there in three of the stories he gives you another person who he was
with for a large portion of that time and you have spoke to police have said that they even though they've not named
these individuals that they spoke to both of these individuals what I'm getting at does that mean he has an
alibi because you know who doesn't have an alibi is Mike Mason I think it all then becomes determined on how much as
law enforcement do you believe these other individuals and I think just in this situation if I'm investigating a
disappearance of a 12-year-old girl and look she needs to be tested she needs to
take insulin daily by the second or third day I hate to say this but you're going
to start assuming the worse she's an endangered missing but when you're talking to all these individuals they
all become suspects MH and because of their drug use I I just don't know how much I can believe them at all right I'm
going to need some more concrete evidence so if you tell me you went to go get supplies I need a receipt oh I
can't find one you know if you say you're with this individual I I need more than his word
no I get that but what I what I'm also trying to to focus in on here is I mean law enforcement could have have that
other piece of evidence well exactly yeah but but that's what I'm saying it's hard for us to sort out what's going on
because we don't know if Herbert has an alibi if Herbert has an alibi so so the way that the case stands today is this
police say they they basically believe that they know who did it that they once had several suspects now they have a
prime suspect an unnamed Prime Suspect unnamed to the public right and their Prime Suspect is an IND idual that they
have some evidence against that they gave a polygraph test to and this individual failed the polygraph test
that's as much information as they've given about their Prime Suspect what I'm trying to point out here though is yes I
get that they're drug users yes I get that they're drug makers and likely drug Sellers as well what I'm saying though
is if you if you receive two different stories from one individual that oh I was in the garage
hanging out with this one dude and then the other version of that same story I'm
in the park hanging out with this other dude and you identifi those people and you spoke to both of them what happened
did both of them tell you that he was hanging out with them because that couldn't have
happened can't be both happening at the same time or did one say I don't know why yes I know Christopher Herbert yes
we're friends we hang out uh he maybe he asked me to cover for him but no I didn't see him that night I'm trying to
sort out here if he has an alibi the reason being because well I don't know I'm not law enforcement we don't we
don't need well they law enforcement doesn't know either they would have if they knew who killed Heather color we'd
be having a whole different story here today well again we know in a lot of cases the law enforcement knows they
just can't can't prove it and I and could you imagine not not you know this is where I feel bad horrible I feel
awful for it the mother because as she's learning this information again we we don't know how much I look I would I
would assume that if they're so deep into drugs that they're making meth but this could be a new revelation in his
life oh I just had a child I need to make more money this is my dumbass plan mhm is to cook up some
math so that could be a new revelation in her friend's life but you're law enforcement you're looking for this
12-year-old girl you show up to the scene now everybody you're talking to has conflicting stories and they're all
involved in drugs on some level you can't be feeling good about the outcome of this situation no no and
police have been clear very early on they've stated a few things so one they say foul play was certainly involved in
the Abduction of this girl she didn't walk off on her own two this is we're treating this as a homicide even though
we don't have a body and three We Believe whoever is responsible knew Heather Heather knew
them or the person has a direct tie to that apartment to where Heather was that night the the reason why I'm trying to
sort out this Christopher Herbert Alibi portion is because it doesn't have to be
a single individual that's responsible for what happened to Heather or where she may be found because the problem is
you have Mike Mason who could be perfectly Innocent but he does not have an alibi Christopher Herbert provides
several different stories but Mike Mason if he's innocent he doesn't need it it doesn't matter if he's home alone by
himself from 10 p.m. to 4:00 a.m. it doesn't look so good but the the issue I have with some of the stories is this
Herbert obviously has access to that apartment Mike Mason has been in that apartment and knows Heather so he fits
into the mold of what they are say stating is the person they are looking for is the suspect does he have access
to get into that apartment without Christopher Herbert being there right because he has access to the garage
would Heather let yeah would Heather let him in does he have a key to the apartment there was no forced entry no
signs of forced entry into the apartment that night right we know that police vetted the BMW people and they don't
seem to be so interested in them so where I think the case sits is one of two things either Mike Mason or
Christopher Herbert or the two of them together right you you grab the girl and I'll be in the car and because it's a
little little weird that two of the four stories that Christopher Herbert gives says that he's at a park that is near
the river and then the flip of that is you talk to Mike Mason and he says Oh My My tow chains are missing uh I'm worried
that somebody might have used them to to dispose of of the girl in the river okay so we got two people both
referencing the river I'm going to say something and and maybe you will pick up what I'm putting down I
almost lean towards an outside individual and and here's why we have a comforter
missing if if it was Christopher killing his wife and he put her body in the comforter he doesn't have to explain the
missing comforter away to anybody law enforcement shows up they don't know the comforter is missing but but this
12-year-old girl something happens he wraps her up in the comforter now he's going to have to explain this away to
his wife but if it's an outside Source then they just they just use whatever you just would kind of use
whatever is just around and you wouldn't you wouldn't give a [ __ ] if that makes
any sense right you would just grab what's there to wrap up the the package to remove it from the apartment yeah I'm
just saying if it was your apartment and you know your wife is coming home you might take a second to think a little
bit more about how you're going to dispose of this body yeah I I see what you're saying I do pick up what you're
putting down but I don't know that that points to to innocence for or I I think the way that this
probably goes down Captain is that they they're canvasing the area this neighbor
tells the story of hey I I witnessed this this is what I saw and then now police are going okay okay it wasn't
obvious that anything was missing from the apartment other than Heather but we have this statement from the neighbors
and now you have potentially have Dana and Christopher going oh yeah we are missing a blanket or we are missing a
comforter uh now now that you you ask that question that there was a similar blanket or comforter that was found in a
park I had a hard time tracking down when it was discovered right it sounds like it was fairly close to the time
that Heather went missing that the thing though is police were never able to 100% determine if that comforter came
from the apartment so uh they they recover this comforter or blanket it's it's often described as a blanket and
what was missing from the apartment is often described as a comforter but from my understanding they showed this to
Dana Madden and she was unable to identify it 100% as being the the missing item from their
apartment so that seems that's a little inconclusive but it's hard to believe her too because she would have an agenda
on why she wouldn't want to cooperate with law enforcement you're exactly right but what we do have at one of our
crime scenes is Heather's blood and you would think that if she was immediately bloodied dead or asleeping
unconscious whatever I don't believe she'd be sleeping unconscious would be a better term and
then removed in a in a comforter used to remove her from the apartment as we said
with the potential eyewitness right I would think that police might not need to ask Dana if this is your comforter
blanket if they found blood or Heather's blood on that so it sounds like no blood
on the on this item and that's why we need the owner or one of the owners to potentially identify it
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can do this when you Angie [Music] that all right we are back back to our story of a missing 12-year-old with a bunch of
suspects that are piles of [ __ ] well and you know what and I'm not going to put
anything on the St Louis Missouri police we'd be remiss if we didn't point out that
almost a thousand homicide and missing persons cases have gone unsolved in St Louis since
1980 this is according to their own statistics that's too many um almost 30 cold cases from the 80s and the90s have
been solved by the department this in 2021 thanks to the application of modern forensic Tech techniques and evidence
now we say that and that was my concern at first with this case because you can see why
this is a complicated case you have people telling different stories you have two individuals that it looks like
on the surface have no alibi I think they have a better understanding of Christopher Herber and where he was and
what he was up to that night than we do 100% I believe that right this case man they've worked this case really good
they put a lot of effort into this case some things that they did really smart uh they did bring in other agencies to
assist what I find you know through looking into these cases every every week week is that if you have a criminal
with a level of sophistication makes the crime a lot harder to solve right for law
enforcement but also seems like if the suspects are such dumbasses that that makes the the case
even more complex does that make any sense it's interesting you say that because on more
than one occasion I've heard a detective say well not the same detective but different detectives in different
situations say he's too dumb to lie he's too dumb to not tell us the truth right
and that comes with experience I can't explain that statement but I can I could tell by the the individual telling me
that by the sound of their voice by the look on their face they believed it let's fast forward about 2 and a half
years after Heather goes missing so there were remains found in a creek near St Louis in March of 20
2002 police were hopeful that these might be the remains of Heather color it sounds like they very quickly within a a
day or two were able to determine that no that was not the remains of Heather then the following month in April of
2002 police went on record stating this was the first time that I saw this this is the first time they come out and say
you know what we're pretty certain we know who did this we just need some evidence we we need a little more
evidence and here's the problem when you talk about a homicide investigation even
in 2023 uh so even more importantly in 99 2000 2001 and 2002 you don't have a body
it gets very difficult to bring forth charges now we talked about the blood in that apartment we have seen and we have
covered cases right Captain where you do not have the actual remains right but you have enough blood blood at your
crime scene where a medical expert can come in and say this amount of lost blood this person was killed here you
may and it belongs to this person this person was killed you're looking for a body you can't find it but I can
scientifically prove that this person is no longer with us and therefore you can
bring up murder charges so when we question the amount of blood one thing we do know is it was not enough that was
found in the apartment for someone to come forward medical expert to tell us that Heather was killed in that
apartment yeah so in simple terms you don't have the evidence of the victim's body but you have evidence that there
was a murder they have evidence of Foul Play and then they this is what's interesting I think they were really
hoping that somebody would crack right maybe not the Killer maybe not the person 100% responsible somebody on
crack might crack but some that knows the true story maybe they were told this by the perpetrator maybe they
witnessed something maybe they participated in something but they wanted to keep the heat the heat was hot
they wanted to keep it turned up Crank It Up to yeah and so they announced this to the public
right you can see the efforts that in this this as George W bush would say the strategery involved
March of 202 body found that was if it would have been Heather that would have advanced their
case turns out not to be Heather here's our opportunity right here's if there's some if the Killer is
out there and is paying attention to this case or his friends or anybody that may have helped him or paying attention
to this case well they're all going to get a little nervous because now the body's been out after a couple days it's
determined it's not Heather so what do we do use that strategery and come out within 30 days and tell the
newspapers yeah we know who did this we just need a little more evidence keep the heat cranked up to 11 MH you sit
back and you wait to see if somebody comes out to tell you a story tell you something you didn't know or present
some evidence to you it'd be a great time to bring people back in for even this simple questioning I'm sure that
they did that because here's what happened next whatever they were looking for whatever they were hoping to get led
to Heather's body or told the story of where she was disposed of that likely didn't happen keep the
heat cranked up to 11 right the following month they bring in the FBI FBI come in and take a look at this
case conduct your own independ endent investigation we will supply you with everything we have and then tell us what
you think happened so the FBI comes in they examine everything they put together an
offender profile they they profile the whole the whole case the whole scenario none of this information other than the
FBI being brought in and conducting their own independent investigation is released to the public so we don't know
what their findings were we don't know what kind of profile they came up with but what I can sit here and say and you
know this Captain just as well as I do we've seen this in dozens of cases police are pretty certain that they know
what happened a couple years go by they're not able to close the case or make an arrest you bring in an
independent investigation somebody like the FBI or BCI or we've seen it with gbi
and all the other eyes that are out there yeah or the MF FBI yeah as many eyes as you can put on the case right
we're not talking about eyeballs we're talking about the the letter I I'd just love to be questioning somebody and go
you know what we just did we just brought in the MF FBI yeah to be going What the [ __ ] FBI and we're
starting just so you know we're starting up the tcgi True Crime garage investigations um and we're cheap so
Dirt Cheap we work for beer uh you bring in the FBI they conduct their own investigation you don't release any of
that information to the public and you know why and we've seen this a dozen of times we've been told this from other
investigators we brought in the FBI on our case you don't need to tell the public anything because guess what
happened they came to the same conclusion that they that the police came to we don't need to release the
offender profile because they came to the same conclusion that we did and I'm certain
that this has happened in this case and I think that really you could probably narrow down your suspects to two or
three people it's Christopher Herbert it's Mike Mason or an unknown individual and
it could be more than one person within that group of three we could have two or three people
who were respon who's to say that Christopher Herbert didn't have a bunch have Mike Mason and a friend over and
they decided to just party at the house right or they're in the garage cooking up meth and then Heather stumbles onto
this and and now we feel like we have something we got to cover up do we know if the couple is still together I don't
think so um they weren't married at the time and the the the only thing that I have to base that off of Captain is that
Christopher Herbert spent a good amount of time in in and out of prison so I'm guessing that holding down a
relationship is going to be a little difficult when you when you locked up yeah um we also know that Mike Mason has
spent a good deal of time in prison as well oh surprise surprise yeah and so what what's interesting though is Mike
Mason is not shy to talk to police or even the media about this case now that doesn't that doesn't sway me either
way on his innocence or guilt yeah stuff like that to me it's like that could mean everything or nothing exactly
you're exactly right I hope it didn't come off that just harping on Heather's mother but I do know that there's been
times that Heather's mother has confronted these individuals yes because because when you're not getting in a
straight story you would obviously become more suspicious and you're leaving your daughter in the hands of
two individuals that you thought were your friends you thought that she would be safe over there and obviously she
wasn't yeah so this is a this is is one of the more fun parts of the story I guess is a really dumb way for me to
describe it but there you have it Christine was actually arrested and this was a handful of months after Heather
went missing and Christine firmly believed I'm guessing that she had a good idea or or had a very strong Theory
but a large portion of whatever it is that she believed it's unclear of who she thought was 100%
responsible but it's very clear that she believed that Dana Madden her friend that that police again confirmed that
she was at work that night arrived on time she believed that her friend Dana Madden knew more than what Dana was
telling to police and telling to Christine right and this infuriated her this is a conversation she she attempted
to have many times with her friend Dana clearly she didn't think she was getting
the information that she deserved or or or should be told and so she goes to Dana's place of work at the gas station
one night with a baseball bat demanding to know what happened to her daughter and Dana locks herself in a
back room in the back room so that Christine can't get to her calls police and then Christine's arrested and this
for you know menacing or or public endangerment something of or public um I don't know exactly what the charge
was but we know that she was arrested and charged with something now unfortunately Christine's no longer with
us she she died in her 50s not knowing what happened to her daughter Heather she did work you can see if you go back
through all of the media stuff she spent her remaining days trying to figure out
what happened to her daughter she she spent a lot of time working with other foundations the class Foundation the
poly class Foundation out of California I believe but we see this in a lot of cases it's a you know not knowing and
feeling possibly responsible and knowing that there's people out there that possibly have
these answers it's like a cancer and we we see it in a lot of cases whether the the the victim is
found or not MH I mean John B Ramsay mother dies young in this case mother dies young and
in uh Amy Mahal case mother dies young it's I mean it's it's uh it's horrible and it's just another
victim in this crime yeah and I think where the case stands today captain we're talking about Dana Madden's Alibi
confirmed verified by police she was working that night and police seem to firmly believe that Heather was alive
and well at 10 p.m. on the the 14th and that something happened to Heather between 10: p.m. and 4:00 a.m. on the
15th Christopher Herbert again for reasons we've discussed at at length it's very difficult to nail down what
the true story is we do know that that they did speak with two of the individuals separately that he was
supposedly with that night it would be very interesting to know if either of them confirmed or
denied being with Christopher Herbert that night it'd be interesting if both of them confirmed to be with Christopher
Herbert that night because if you're supposed to be in different places at the same time with the same person guess
what your two aliis now become zero aliis yeah normally have some hope a case will get solved but I think in this
one because of the the drug use the time of the people of interest you know time spent in prison
chances of them finding the the the remains I I I just think I don't have a lot of Hope for this one unless somebody
agree comes forward unless somebody knows something of substance something that they can prove to police then I I I
just don't have a lot of Hope in this one well and I was all but determined to show up at the garage today here hang
out with you Captain jump up on my giant soap box and scream it from the top of the mountains that I think that that
Christopher Herbert is suspect a number one or he and Mason something happened there
there's a very likelihood that whoever's responsible did not intend to kill Heather colorin that something happened
and they they took measures to dispose of the body afterwards there there's a likelihood that that that's a
possibility there's a likelihood that somebody did intend to kill her it's it's difficult to say based off of the
evidence but I was determined to come in here and say you know what I think the most likely scenario is that that
Christopher Herbert and Mike Mason did this together got to give a big shout out here Captain to Steph Pacho who does
the trace evidence podcast there's been some storytelling and and some some uh coverage of this case outside of St
Louis as far as YouTube goes but as far as podcast go trace evidence was the only one that I could find that covered
it at length he always does a good job over there he pointed out something that really kind of it didn't totally
squash my thought my theory that maybe the two of them did it together because the the the thing that I have a hard
time getting past is that Christopher Herbert never says he's with Mike Mason yet he's at a park near the Mississippi
River Bank near the Mississippi River and then Mike Mason tells police oh my toe chains are moving I'm worried
that somebody Ed These Chains to wait down the girl and and disposed of her in the Mississippi River like it
seems I get it that the river's right there but it seems a little weird that these two guys
would have this one element in both of their stories separately and so I wondered if maybe
one helped the other with a problem oh I got you know this happened this happened
I didn't mean for it to happen now I got to get rid of this uhhuh if something like that
occurred and again trace evidence Steven Pacho doesn't completely squash my theory but
brings up a good a good and and impressive observation you got two guys that are in and out of prison on lesser
charges some of them facing years because they're repeat offenders it would make a whole lot of
sense that that person a would turn on person B for a plea bargain in some other lesser
crime and say look right law enforcement if you can if you can help me out I can
help you out well that's a that that's a very intelligent point to point out the
other thing too when we're talking about media coverage this is not necessarily in Heather koren's case but if you start
digging into this case there unfortunately is a lot or were a lot in a period of 10 years in this Greater St
Louis area of children going missing and there many of these stories are much different than the Heather
color case Heather color was at that apartment whatever happened to her happened it started in that apartment
where she ended up we don't know but a lot of these other kids were abducted while they were walking home getting off
the school bus out riding a bike and unfortunately it appears that there was probably about three different child
killer child abductor offenders operating in this area within about a 10 to 20 year time period so in some weird
way she kind of becomes just another f on a milk carton where they cover these stories in the newspaper year after year
and you see her face her name the details of her case of Heather's case piled on three four five other cases that were
still outstanding and one of those cases was a young girl by the name of Angie Housman and Angie housman's case is
weird when you look into it captain because it's like they her case went unsolved for so long and it was such a
mystery for so long that anytime another kid came up missing they investigated the possibility if Angie housman's case
was related to the latest missing kids case right and that too was true with Heather color we know 100% that know
that's not the situation I shouldn't say 100% let's go with 98 % but we have police telling us
in Heather korin's case her the person responsible knew Heather Heather knew them in Angie housman's
case they were able to finally solve her case using DNA evidence and the person responsible for that was Earl Webster
Cox who was actually serving life in prison when they connected him to the Angie housan case many many years later
now if you want to learn more more about that case there's a great uh coverage on
the Angie hman case and that was on the case with pazan the TV show season 23 episode 7 which aired in September of
2021 yeah one of the things that is very interesting and you have to applaud police for this is that they spent time
monitoring these individuals uh for a time period to try to solve this case yes an extended
period of time that that cost a lot of money manh hours and resources to monitor individuals so unfortunately
captain and unfortunately garage listeners Heather's disappearance remains unsolved and Foul Play is
strongly suspected as the captain pointed out there's been a group of people a group of suspects over the
years who have been monitored in connection to Heather's disappearance but no one has been officially labeled
as a suspect we do have police saying that they believe they have a prime suspect and that their prime suspect
they have some evidence against and one piece they believe is that that this individual failed a polygraph
examination no arrests have been made in this case Heather who disappeared while
babysitting for the infant daughter of family friends Christopher Herbert and Dana
Madden she's of course abducted sometime during the night or early morning hours
this is what police have told us and this is where the case stands to this day this is a case that I think that if
they find the right evidence that we might see this case Advance sometime soon we know that we are seeing success
coming out of the St Louis area on a lot of their cold cases remember in 2021 they solved 30 of their cold cases
in that year alone I'm hoping that Heather's case can be one that's solved this [Music]
[Music] year want to thank you so much for donating to the Beer fund for listening
to the show for sharing and telling friends and families about the True Crime garage flying garage ship Colonel
do we have recommended reading this week it's a little self-serving here Captain
but I'm going to recommend my book the deli murders the quest to find the man on the bridge the reason why we got a
book signing coming up this Saturday at hoof harded in Morango Ohio join me there if you can from 2: to 4:00 p.m. on
Saturday I'll be selling and signing books if you already have one just bring it with you and we will have a beer and
a laugh together hope to see as many people there as possible that's this Saturday from 2: to 4: at hoof harded in
Morango Ohio yeah and if you need some lighter reading check out my book whoever smelt
it dealt it you can find that on Amazon Prime and until next week be good be kind and don't
[Music] litter [Applause] [Music] you can start your day off right when you find find a professional on Angie to
get your plumbing right first connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well
visit angie.com you can do this when you Angie that

Heather Kullorn /// Part 2 /// 676

Part 2 of 2

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This week we talk about a case that we fear has gone cold. There are good suspects in this case but have all of the possible leads dried up? Back in July of 1999, Heather Kullorn was babysitting an infant overnight. This is odd especially giving the ages. Heather was twelve and the infant was just a little over two months old. Given the ages an overnight babysitting gig does not seem appropriate at all. Heather disappeared in the middle of the night. Blood was found at the scene. The baby thankfully was alive and well when the parents returned home. Police were called and the authorities have been looking for Heather for over twenty years now. We believe the person or persons responsible have likely shared intimate knowledge of the case with someone. If you have any information regarding the disappearance of Heather Kullorn please call the St. Louis Police Department at 314-231-1212. To remain anonymous please call Crimestoppers at 1-866-371-TIPS.

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Brief Summary

The episode covers the unsolved case of Heather Color's disappearance, focusing on blood evidence and key suspects Christopher Herbert and Mike Mason.

Key points

Conflicting Stories. Christopher Herbert provides multiple conflicting stories regarding his whereabouts during the night.
Multiple Suspects. Police are monitoring several suspects in the case, including Christopher Herbert and Mike Mason.
Foul Play Suspected. Police believe there is foul play involved in Heather's disappearance, confirmed by blood evidence.
Missing Items. Along with Heather, a comforter and tow chains are also reported missing, raising concerns.
Prime Suspect Identified. Police have identified a prime suspect who failed a polygraph test, but details remain scarce.
Conflicting Alibis. Witnesses provide conflicting stories about Christopher Herbert's whereabouts the night Heather went missing.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to be seen and good to see you.

Host introduction

1:58WatchNov 16, 2023

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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