H.H. Holmes, Part 3 | Morbid | Forensic Files

hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is morbid [Music] this is morbid and we're in part three
of HH Holmes three is my lucky number so let's [ __ ] get it brother well this is definitely gonna be a four-parter so
uh this is this story and so like I'm just getting right into like how crazy it is because I can't
can't stop won't stop rocking to the Rhythm it's similar to Jack the Ripper but not at all yeah you know what I mean
like no no I know what you mean similar in the sense that there is just so much and there's so many little things that
you just need to they need to double check because like so many different stories were told and newspapers ran
with certain things and like he told so many different stories and you know investigators are wrong on certain
things so you have to like keep checking things to be like did that happen or did
that happen or which one happened very confusing he has many many wives he has many many business scams he has many
many states in which he does these things it's like a TLC show kind of he is just so much so I figured
I don't want to like just like Crush all the information into as little episodes
as possible I'd rather have more episodes being able to coherently discuss what's going on so that we can
move on to the next one knowing where we are yeah so it gets it like part four I
think we're gonna get into you know the business associate um his Benjamin it's I've heard it two
ways it's pied cell white cell or pit cell I like fight cell and I've been saying that the whole time sounds right
to me yeah um but he that his whole thing with his family that's what we're going to talk about in
part four when we get to that it's very confusing very intense so I just wanted to give that
its own little thing okay and I think in part four we're also going to talk about
because I was thinking about it more that the theories that he is Jack the Ripper I'm excited to talk about that
because I need yeah I know you don't think so I don't think he was but I think some of the theories are very
compelling and I understand why why it's still a theory okay I get it okay so I want to go a little further
into those which means I want to give a little more time to dive into some like ship manifests and some other things to
try to see because he was in in the UK at a time you love a Shipman I love a shirt manifest where do you go to find
them on um ancestry.com you can find them ah ancestry's got a lot of cool [ __ ] like they don't like offshoot
things that you can do yeah you can find marriage and death certificates you can
find births yeah you know divorces in fact ancestry has been we're not like we're not uh sponsored by ancestry this
is literally just me being like it's a cool site yeah I do too so ancestry is good for this one I've been using it a
lot because I've been like trying to find records of divorces and marriages just to like because one of the things
with Holmes is like he married people but he didn't know he's legally married people so he was married you don't know
how many he was married to legally and how many he wasn't it was wild but when we last left you we had talked
about um Emeline segrand the secretary that he had hired on the one that Benjamin his assistant there had found
so remarkably beautiful that told Holmes about um he had definitely murdered her yeah
and we knew that because you know he claimed that she went and got married to a guy named Phelps Phelps was a known
Alias of Benjamin pyzel um you know she disappeared and the uh guy that he had hired before to
articulate skeletons for him he had come and picked up a trunk yeah you know like
not stuff at all lots of other things you know the LaSalle Medical College of Chicago received a delivery of a nicely
articulated skeleton right after this yeah not at all related yeah and they found that footprint a woman's footprint
in that airtight Vault that he had built in his castle and it was so it was made
with so much force in the wall that they said they couldn't even wipe it off she
was trying to get out of there that part just like stuck with me that's [ __ ] terrifying yeah so that's where we had
last left you and he is also still married to Clara and he is still married to murder okay so he still has Robert
his young son he still has Lucy his young daughter and he has murdered several people
fantastic so yeah so it's great now if you know the story of H.H Holmes I think we mentioned this book before you
definitely have heard of the World's Fair and that being inextricably linked together I was waiting for you to bring
it up and I kept wanting to ask last episode and I was like don't do it she'll get there well that's the thing
so the last episode I mentioned the world's Colombian Exposition yeah that's the same as the world's fair oh uh I'm
gonna call it the World's Fair from now on but they are the same thing they're just called those things interchangeably
uh but yeah they are linked a lot of people think that he made this Castle in response to the World Fair coming
because it was going to be such an easy thing he didn't make it in response to it he was planning to do it all along it
just turned out yeah but for him there was something he did do in response to the World Fair coming to Chicago and
after it had been announced he decided to add a third floor to his Murder Castle ah now in the enthusiasm and
excitement for the opening of the fair a lot of businessmen around the area they
kind of like race to make a ton of sales as possible like this was their time they were going to go they didn't do a
lot of credit checking they didn't do a lot of background checking they just wanted to make these sales Holmes was
really able to use this to his Advantage when he was making his castle because he
got a ton of furniture a ton of fixtures and he could do it all without any intention of actually paying he just did
it with credit and he did this using the name HS Campbell by most accounts so by
the time construction of the third floor was finished that was around the end of
1892 early 1893 creditors were catching on and they started filing lawsuits against him basically for theft because
he had nothing left and it got so bad that the sheriff and other creditors actually descended upon the castle
demanding payment or they wanted all their items back but when they got there Holmes was like I don't know what you're
talking about come in I don't have have any of that stuff you Liars what he had sold off all the furniture or he hid
them all in the secret Chambers in the castle basically being like you can't prove anything oh [ __ ] like literally
just being like those didn't even exist what are you talking about and like that
my name is not even HS yeah okay my name is not h.s Campbell I am H.H holy you're
looking for the wrong guy yeah like how dare you Holy Cannoli so those secret Chambers were more than just murder
Chambers they were also a something where he could store his scams essentially scam Chambers scam Chambers
now what he did was he essentially turned the second floor the third floor became more of the apartments and the
third the second floor it came more and more Macabre and used as that really scary part of the castle hey the Chicago
Tribune later the this the way they described this I was like I have to bring this in I found on newspaper.com
my favorite place uh they wrote Oh What a queer house it was in all America there was another none other like it
it's chimney stuck out where chimneys should never stick out its stairways ended nowhere in particular winding
passages brought the uninitiated with a frightful jerk back to where they had started from there were doors that had
there were rooms that had no doors there were doors that had no rooms A mysterious house it was indeed a crooked
house a reflex of the Builder's own distorted mind and that house occurred dark and Eerie Deeds oh it sounds like
the Winchester Mystery House thank you that's literally what he was doing he did the same kind of thing where you
would open a door and it would just fall down to the basement right or you would
there was um like I'm gonna bring up right now I took a screenshot of the floor plans of the house that they had
laid out and especially the second floor and just some of the things that they had written in this newspaper article
for what these things were lots of things labeled secret rooms mysterious closed room was one of them dummy
elevator for lowering bodies hey sealed room all bricked in trap lead down to secret chamber
uh this the hanging secret chamber it was that like a hanging room or that's where he hanged people I have no idea
it's just labeled the hanging secret chamber no thank you one is called the blind room one is called the dark room
asphyxiation chamber no light with gas connectors so he had an actual room that was like
the gas chamber num there was one called the death the death shaft where he would
throw people down alive uh there were things called The Maze uh room of the three corpses one was
called okie dokie the black closet oh I don't like that yep um another secret chamber it's literally
labeled another secret chamber uh one room another one another one is called the five door room there's a room with
five doors no that's too many doors yeah and then in the b in the front of it is
just like waiting room reception room for me it's the black closet the black closet I think that's where I would hate
the most well I'd hate it all the most this one the steel bound chamber no and those are those airtight chambers that
he would have which on the outside it looked like a regular door sure like and you would open the door and then there
was a steel door there and he would open that door shove you in shut that steel door and then he would just shut the
regular door and lock it and no one would hear you no no one would think twice about it they'd walk past that
door while you were slowly suffocating in there and they would never know you're sitting there looking at a
[ __ ] crazy footprint like clearly knowing somebody tried to bust out of here and it didn't work exactly and you
have to wonder like did he leave people in there I'm sure he did and then put put somebody else in them probably but a
lot of the bones were found in the basement so I'm assuming he used those chefs to just just show them in because
a lot of the times he would bring them in there under the guise of like check out this cool chamber right like no one
can hear you in here and then he'd be like whoop and he'd just lock you in oh God was he a big guy he was not a big
guy no he was five foot eight you know just like a normal sized guy yeah um that's why he had to use a lot of
Mind Games and a lot of scams right because he couldn't overpower yeah he wasn't using a lot of force to do these
things especially with like other men um even with women he really wasn't he was sometimes he was but mostly he tried
to incapacitate them first in some way but the floor plan just really shows you the thought process
behind this house and the level of evil the level of evil is something we will never fully comprehend insurmountable
insurmountable evil so unfortunately so the world fair is here we just had him he just murdered sagrand but he's gotten
away with it and Holmes's next victim Minnie Williams unfortunately came right to him oh no uh she was actually someone
he'd met years earlier while he was on a brief trip to Boston Massachusetts no get out of here I know I was like bye we
don't want you Minnie Williams was actually born in Mississippi but shortly after she was born both her parents were
killed oh gosh so she and her sister Nanny and her brother were over were orphaned she's also referred to as
Nettie Nanny and Nettie Nettie is one of my favorite names really I think Nettie
is the cutest one that's funny I love I like that name too it's cute uh then like sometimes you'll see her referred
to as Annie and like some newspapers I think they just removed the end yeah but Nanny or Nettie basically I'm gonna call
her nanny because that's what I saw mostly sure um they were split up when the parents died and ended up being kind
of shuttled around to a few Guardians over the years but many they all ended up finding permanent places and Minnie
found a permanent home and guardian with an uncle in Texas the uncle treated her very well was like
a very kind Guardian a very good Guardian I ended up enrolling her in the Boston Academy of elocution in 1886
which is a finishing school for high class ladies uh unfortunately not very long after arriving in Boston her uncle
slash Guardian passed away oh God she's been through it yeah and in doing so he left her in a state valued at fifty
thousand to a hundred thousand dollars which was 1.5 to 3 million dollars now well [ __ ] yeah so she Inherited property
as well on top of that estate she inherited a property in Fort Worth Texas as well [ __ ] so she was like set up at
this point she was and I found through ancestry.com that her uncle was Reverend W.C black of New Orleans and he was the
editor of the Methodist Christian Advocate which is like a newspaper so that's just that fun uh because I want
to know who he was okay who is this man yeah but um and apparently he was a great Guardian
so cool but it was at a party in Boston while she was there and finishing school
that and it was thrown by one of the city's big fancy leading families you know I love that in the late 1880s that
Holmes met Minnie Williams no thank you because of course he was he was pretending to be very high class himself
I just have to ask before you get too far into it I feel like is this in the AHS the one that the maid was based off
of was based off of yeah the maid in The in hotel no no no this all sounds so familiar to me maybe I just heard it I
mean Miss Patrick March was based on yeah yeah but I don't I don't think Minnie was uh huh because she wasn't a
maid oh okay so she like she was like a like a high society yeah exactly so um no it sounds familiar but maybe I've
just heard her story I'm sure little little bits and pieces of that definitely probably got sprinkled in
there yeah but when he met a when she met H.H Holmes at this party for like fancy people uh in the late 1880s he
introduced himself as Harry Gordon that's not your name it's not now Minnie herself was very Charming she was
essentially a socialite a search in newspapers back then in Boston shows that she was in attendance at a lot of
big parties and events hell yeah girl she was always listed among the guests I think he's up baby there you go and she
was an actress and very interesting in the theater she was a very interesting person but she wasn't his type
physically she was not his type she wasn't according to newspaper reports she wasn't the classic beauty of the
time which is generally what Holmes went for he was very shallow uh he would usually go for like only pretty ladies
sure that classically pretty ladies you know what I mean she was described which
I think is mean because there's photos of her and I think she's very pretty I'm gonna look her up she was described as
plain that's [ __ ] and they literally immediately know when they literally wrote that she had full cheeks and I was
like I'm sorry what should your cheeks be I was gonna say you mean like how people shove fillers into their cheeks
to look like I'm like also like what should cheeks be like I feel like that like should they be sunken in I don't
know I wonder it's not back then did they possibly something because that's the thing we're talking about like a
standard of beauty that is definitely different than what we are doing today 100
um and that's what they're talking about though and they were mentioning that she
was not a classic Beauty she was apparently not fitting into the beauty standards of that time I think she was
really pretty right she was so cute yeah and she looks sassy she does look sassy
and she has great hair she does now despite the fact that she wasn't exactly his type Holmes gave many a lot of
attention she got money exactly he took a very perceived liking to her and showed her his interest anytime he came
back into Boston for quote-unquote business he lavaged lavished her with attention he would take her to dinners
he would take her to the theater he would extend his stays longer just to spend more time with her he acted like
he was in love with her um it used it seemed like he was straight up courting her yeah and she
was thrilled of course she's very much loved him unfortunately knowing she wasn't his normal type and knowing how
hard he went at her it's very likely he was drawn to her massive inheritance yeah remember he's a monster he has no
feelings so he definitely didn't love her he courted her for some time but after a while he just became bored and
he started making the visits less and less and then he just ghosted her completely and stopped visiting it all
or communicating to her I wish that was the end of it like I hate the Heartbreak
for her but then you're better off you're better off exactly and she was devastated she had really fallen for him
she felt like he was the one who got away like ghosted her yeah totally ghosted her that's [ __ ] wow even [ __ ]
boys in the 1800s ladies truly ladies and gents my goodness now follow when she graduated from the Boston Academy of
elocution imagine many moved from Boston to Denver Colorado and there she tried to use some of her inheritance to start
up her own Theater Company oh cool yeah she was like she was like [ __ ] that I'm
gonna I love the theater I'm gonna start my own doing the damn thing unfortunately it didn't really work
workout she ended up losing like a lot of money in the process she gave it a shot though yeah you know you you gotta
shoot your shot you miss 100 of the shots you don't take Michael Scott Michael Scott through all of that though
she could not stop thinking about Harry Gordon you you can never get your mind off the last man's that ghosted you no
and he had love bombed her he had showered her with attention with affection with gifts with dates with
everything he had acted like he was courting her to lead up to a proposal that's what he had and in that time
period That's you Court to lead up to a proposal there is not like this it's not
like now where you're like I don't know maybe we'll go on a third date but we're
talking yeah like we're talking we're seeing each other whatever the [ __ ] that
is it's like back then you're courting and there's an expected end to this and the end to this is we're getting married
dude they should go back to that just like I'm not gonna Court you unless we're getting married honestly like Girl
Like Girls gays they let's start that yeah don't waste your time like just it's end game are you planning to get
married someday no next next yeah like if that's what you're looking for exactly so as far as many knew at this
point Harry was living in Chicago uh Chicago was obviously getting a lot of news around and newspapers and
everything because of the world's fair being hosted there so to many she was like you know what Chicago does sound
pretty exciting and the World's Fair would be like a lot of opportunities for me like you know there's a lot of things
there there's a lot of people there's connections right you know and she's like also Harry is there the love of my
life she knows he's there so she's like I don't know it kind of feels like the universe is calling me there
so in February of 1893 she decided she was packing up and moving to Chicago she said let's go and on her way there she
was just determined she was like I'm gonna reconnect with Harry oh baby now Minnie settled on Chicago's north side
when she arrived and she took a job immediately as a stenographer for a local law firm uh but almost immediately
she did get in contact with H.H Holmes of course Holmes was like oh my God I'm so glad
you're here thank you so much for following me here that's great I don't have to do any work oh no so after all
he loved when he could get a woman to come to him he didn't want to have to do all the work if he didn't have to do the
work he was like this is great so although she was already gainfully employed with a law firm he was like you
have to come work for me you have to be my personal secretary here's a retroactive warning to everybody if H.H
Holmes ever asked you to be his personal secretary run the other way Run for the
hills anytime he asked someone to be his personal secretary they were gone oh no
um and he also put a little bit of sugar on top of this and he said be my personal secretary I'll pay you a lot
more and then he was like we can also spend a lot more time together which was he knew was the way to get many like oh
my God yeah he knew what was that so Minnie is so happy she has the dream has been realized she has moved to Chicago
to reconnect with the love of her life which she thought got away and she was meant to be with him she contacted him
and he was thrilled to hear from her and he's saying come spend more time that is
the saddest thing to me is that like she's like [ __ ] like yes this is working out imagine how she felt like the
excitement it like that's actually like when you've like lost contact with somebody you thought was really cool and
then you regain it and you're like in her head she's probably like this was meant to be of course she was it was not
because she was probably thinking there was probably thoughts on her head okay I'm gonna move to Chicago I'm gonna
contact him this could go one of two ways he's gonna be psyched and my whole life is going to lead up to this moment
and it's going to be great and we're gonna get married he's gonna say sorry I'm not interested and I'm gonna say
cool I gave it a shot I did what I did right and I'm gonna move on right so for him to do this is like confirming to her
this was this was the right decision me packing up my whole life and reading here for him it was a right decision and
it makes me so angry he not only loved to like [ __ ] with people and like murder
them but this [ __ ] loved a mind game oh he loved a mine and I hate that yeah psychologically he loved to [ __ ]
with people and so he was like yes absolutely come come work with me we're gonna spend all this time together he
did have a couple of stipulations though some little things one of the most important ones that was he said um I'm
going to insist that you'd never refer to me as Mr Gordon because uh that's not my name only refer to me as uh Holmes
just call me that and and don't don't ask me why just just do that okay and she was like committing so she's just
like okie doke okay and she just all right sure why not so just a few weeks after moving to
Chicago she left the boarding house she was living in and moved into the apartment in the castle or nor she was
just so happy it's moving in the direction she wants it to move this is the hardest part of telling these cases
is I just want to go back in time and just run to that [ __ ] thing and grab her and take her out to a drink and be
like girly I'm from the future this is gonna be real [ __ ] up but this is what was about to happen to you and it's like
you're worth more than this you are so much better than that mustachioed fake [ __ ] he takes off that hat he's nothing
honey nothing baby his hair is [ __ ] you under that you are all that and a bag of
[ __ ] chips I want to be like girl Minnie you packed your [ __ ] up and moved to Chicago that's a strong
independent woman right there so you can get the [ __ ] away from him keep on keeping up yeah you don't need him let's
be friends what's that Tick Tock sound that's like he's just a guy hit him with your car
he's not the love of your your life he's just a guy hit it with your car that's what I would say
except for AJ Jones get rid of him hit him with like several of your vehicles with your horse and
buggy hit him with that hit him with all of your personal belongings but that's like it just makes me so mad for many I
know I want to save her so she moved in with him and of course unfortunately it started right away that she would catch
him in a lot of compromising positions with customers or other random women she's like hey why are you like
stealing from people yeah and also he would just be like like sexually like you know assaulting or or carrying on
with women all over the place in that in that castle oh and then like his wife down the street yeah his wife down the
street and the other one across the country yeah that whole thing uh yeah so he was just constantly like she would
walk in and find because at this point he's moved her into the apartment meant they are together yeah courting has
begun again the promise of marriage has begun again and she's walking and finding him like on top of another woman
oh my God the [ __ ] felonies I would commit oh yeah so he decided not to not do that instead he had a buzzer
installed in his that so that it ran from the second floor to the third floor and that way whenever someone traveled
from the third floor to the second floor where he would carry on his Shenanigans
sure mainly many when she traveled down there he would know a buzzer would sound
right he could stop his Shenanigans and the alarm that you have for literally it's like it's like a motion detector
and just so he had that installed specifically so he could carry on Affairs without being caught so he's
like in the middle of like doing the damn thing with somebody else and that girl's like oh Minnie's coming like that
off yeah you pieces [ __ ] truly a piece of [ __ ] in 1893 he did propose to many
you fake as [ __ ] [ __ ] and they begin wedding planning remember the fact he's
married the fact that he was gonna just like let her plan a whole last wedding he is playing a long game here oh
someone knows the end goal and I'm so angry right now he plays so many long cons and he does with so many people for
so long that he is on another level when it comes to like his stuff is gruesome in a different way
because we don't have all the details of the things he did to people like we can
summarize what he has done and we can see his plans for people and we can see the bones that are left there and we can
see all that evidence but what was really [ __ ] up about him is the way he laid out long cons and had like 18 going
at once yeah and had no remorse about it didn't care how long it reached I hate a
con man yeah [ __ ] it like it's it it's so rattles my bones so so he's having her plan a wedding starting to
plan a wedding remember his wife is living in Wilmette yeah just next time over with his daughter right just fine
and then his other wife is across the country with his other child oh yeah and at the same time Minnie had begun
reconnecting with her sister Nanny yeah who at the time was working as a school teacher in Texas
and in her letters to her sister in late spring 1893 Minnie was just gushing about Chicago and how happy she was and
she said that she expected to marry a man named Henry Gordon or Harry Gordon either one who had plenty of money
and many wanted her sister to come see the World's Fair and she wanted her to come for the wedding so nanny Williams
waited until the school year was done and then she headed out to Chicago on a train
now Holmes married Minnie but it was not recorded of course so it was not legal but he did put her through
a wedding ceremony to her she was they were married yeah uh again not recorded I searched [ __ ] high and low in the
Illinois Cook registry there is nothing in there that says that they were married but people were at it they did
have a ceremony well it made sense that he wouldn't have been able to get married again because he married he has
two other marriages and he married murta in Illinois exactly so he wasn't going to be able to do it exactly but he
certainly went through the motions definitely made her believe that they were married and again still married to
Clara and murder nevertheless falling in with many so quickly so fast so closely
that gave him access to Minnie's inheritance right away yup uh made her a very very valuable tool in all of his
scams as well so in 1893 he convinced her to put the deed to the wilmet house in her name so murder and Lucy are
living there it is now in Minnie's name what yep and a little bit after that he had many right to the man in charge
of her estate the one she inherited and request three thousand dollars be sent to her which was obtained by selling off
a portion of the land left to her by her uncle oh no and he also convinced many to sign over the deed to the entire
property oh I knew that was coming to a man named Alexander Bond who's that which she did in about April 1893 and a
few weeks later Bond signed the deed over to another man named Benton Lyman what she didn't know was that Alexander
Bond was H.H Holmes yeah I had a feeling that was in Benton Lyman another that was an alias of Benjamin pitzel uh
you're saying these other things first and I'm like I know the estate is next and he convinced her to do it like rapid
sign over this deed put this in your name like that's he was able to do this [ __ ] so easily well and the thing that
sucks like back then like I'm sure some people in their head are like oh my God why would you ever do that yeah but
women weren't educated about deeds and trusts and Estates they weren't allowed to be it's like that's exactly and it's
one of those things where men were in charge of these kind of things so you just went along with it right and also
on the other side of this it's a simple thing where she was madly in love with him and trusted him and he made her
trust him and he made her feel like this is forever and made her feel like she made this right decision by changing and
uprooting her life to come here and that the Universe had put them together he had made her really feel like this is
somebody who I can trust it's like trusting your own husband that's just the way it is and why
but yeah so that all happened which you know is leading up to nothing good because when he's signing over deeds and
he's taken over things you know this is leading up to uh taking care of business in his eyes but
then Nanny Williams her sister came arrived in Chicago this was in June after the school year had ended and a
few weeks later their Aunt Lucy the two girls Aunt Lucy received um a letter from Nanny saying I have taken in the
fair to my heart's content and have enjoyed it so much and she said that she was going to be
going on some trips with Minnie and H.H Holmes and they were going to go to Milwaukee and York and all these other
places and she said then we sail for Germany by way of London and Paris I can hardly realize that I'm going to have
this great adventure for which I have wished to for so long brother Harry Harry Gordon says you need never trouble
any more about me financially or otherwise so she wrote to her on saying like don't
ever worry about me financially or otherwise because Harry's going to take it and also we're going to Germany yeah
don't look first don't look early in Germany precisely we're gonna be traveling everywhere
that's why you won't be able to get in touch with us ever again yep now on the evening of August 13 1893 a fire broke
out in the Holmes Castle a real one uh yeah an actual one and many of the residents there immediately said that
they believed that Holmes set the fire himself to cash in on the insurance policies and possibly to get rid of a
lot of incriminating evidence that was on that second floor imagine that uh they actually so one of the residents
said all day preceding the fire Holmes was at work on the third floor of the building moving things out and that
afternoon at five o'clock he took the train to Wilmette soon after he left there was noticeable there was
noticeable in the Flats on the third floor a strong odor of burning tar and soon tar began to run down the walls in
the closet below and in fact he had removed all of the things on the third floor he had
literally taken all his clothing personal papers the furniture the fixers he had removed door handles anything
that was worth anything he had taken out the day before the fire and in the months after the fire
um they had hired a handyman named Joe Owens and he told the fire inspector that the fire had definitely been set to
for insurance money and he said quote some things that were in that building Holmes never wanted known
that's an eerie [ __ ] quote and apparently the thing that kills me is Owens Joe owns the handyman who said
that yeah was never followed up on later but they never asked him anymore about that I'm like what the [ __ ] doesn't that
make so much sense it does and it infuriates me because I'm like guys he obviously felt comfortable saying [ __ ]
in front of this guy yeah but a few days after the fire a crew came in to help clean up the aftermath of the fire and
this is just interesting and it kind of shows that H.H Holmes was definitely together and very uh like controlled in
the beginning with his schemes and with everything that was going on but as he started getting more and more intense
with it and adding more and more layers onto his chaos yeah he was losing it a little bit like he was starting to get
chaotic he was starting to get aggressive he was starting to be Reckless a little bit this fire is a
perfect example of that right he was caught very quickly right um but this one shows so a crew came a
few days later to clean up the aftermath of the fire and they were throwing debris into off the roof and into a
tenement home oh next door that's kind yeah like they weren't using like a shoot to like put it into a dumpster or
something right and it was into the home of John S Nichols who lived there with his family
Nichols was pissed because now there's like soot and [ __ ] all over his home so
he asked for the janitor of the castle to the castle to complain about it and when Holmes found out about this he told
someone he was going to fix that man so apparently he waited for days pacing the alleyway between his home and the
castle waiting for Nichols to come out the [ __ ] and when he did he lost his [ __ ] on him complained he was like I
can't believe you complained about this you four star workers to have to build an expensive shoot to dispose of the
debris they cost me money the correct way to dispose of that and he pulled a gun on him and so a passing patrolman
under police officer was walking by and saw this whole thing and like tackled H.H Holmes to the ground hey uh put your
gun away [ __ ] luckily for homes the whole thing wasn't pursued much further by Nichols because he was like I don't
want to deal with this guy anymore he's crazy but he was very aggressive and Reckless in that shows right there that
yeah he's losing it he's breaking and in his confession Holmes claimed that the letter that was sent to Aunt Lucy from
Minnie and that was supposed to be from Nanny um he claimed that that was forged by
many okay what he does is he tries to blame Minnie for everything even like the fire
and stuff he believes like not not the fire but he blames Minnie for everything that happens after this oh okay
um in the case of Nanny the letter like you said establishes why people wouldn't
hear from her for a while why they shouldn't be concerned about her why nobody should ask where she is so on the
day that the letter was written many what in reality took a day trip to Milwaukee and Nanny had went with homes
to the World's Fair they had just taken in the fair together while Minnie was away for the day uh-huh
she was gonna be away for the night I believe okay um they were seen several times during
the day by several witnesses together it was the last time that Nanny was seen alive oh no she was forced into one of
his sealed bank vault type rooms and was left to suffocate to death Jesus [ __ ]
Christ when Minnie returned from her trip the following day Holmes sent a letter to the landlords of the apartment
that he'd set up for himself like the landlord of the upstairs apartment okay um he had actually sent uh because he
had set up another apartment outside of the castle where they were going to be moving from the castle to this apartment
together him and Minnie yeah him Minnie and Nanny yeah he was gonna have nanny in there too he sent a landlord to that
apartment or excuse me a letter to the landlord of that apartment sorry um saying that they would no longer need
that apartment the landlord was like that's weird because like they're living in there now like I don't
understand like where are they yeah what's going on but he's like so the landlord was a little suspicious so he
went into the apartment to check on him and he found it was abandoned completely
oh so sorry so him and Minnie had already started living there and then he sent the letter and was like no we don't
need to live here yeah he'd set up a whole apartment because they were living in the castle yep but then he had set up
a second apartment outside of the castle which he often did with people where he
would have like so they wouldn't hear everything basically so he had set them up in there and they had only been
living in there for a little while but they had lived but they had lived in there for at least like a week or
something like that and there was things but it was completely abandoned and he said and the landlord said it looked
like somebody had left very quickly also like do you have a lease yeah probably not
um but a few days later Nanny's trunk of all her belongings arrived at the Chicago Wells Fargo office addressed
Miss Nanny Williams c-o-h Gordon oh no no one ever came to claim now later like I said he was gonna blame
Minnie for a lot of things he was going to later blame Minnie for the murder of her own sister yeah I had a feeling that
was coming he said she was insanely jealous of Nanny and worried that Holmes was going to cheat on her with Nanny
well and it's like the night she was gone in Milwaukee he claimed she came home the next day and found that only
one bed had been slept in and assumed that they had slept together so he claims he came home and found that
many had murdered her sister in a blind jealous rage [ __ ] you he claimed she had
beat her to death with a stool so he said he helped her throw Nanny's body into Lake Michigan and then he claimed
of course that after that he told Manny like you need to leave he just banished her oh and he said you need to get
treatment for your mental health yeah I'll help you dispose of the body but then like I'll [ __ ] you over yeah
because that'll turn out well for me no this was all [ __ ] obviously and when Holmes did another confession later he
admitted that it was all [ __ ] yeah he killed them he admitted that he was the one who killed Nanny and after
having her sign some documents needed to get the insurance payment uh payout from
her brother Baldwin's death who he is also like people are suspicious that he might have killed Baldwin as well oh my
God so he may have killed all three of these an entire family he killed many too the way he killed Nanny he locked
her in an airtight room to suffocate a slow and agodizing death Jesus [ __ ] Christ both women had insurance policies
taken out on them by none other than Holmes himself as the beneficiary yep I don't even like he he's evil in so
many different ways he really is and what's crazy is later what you'll see is he takes another wife after this by the
way and we'll get into that kind of thing crazy he's not the marrying type but here he is but he takes another wife
and people see him with this wife later and sometimes he will refer to her as many and some people confuse her as many
so people think that Minnie is alive longer than she was and then there was this
um article I found in like a super old um um or a super old edition of the Ann Arbor Argus newspaper it's from 1895 and
it just says Minnie Williams is alive she's not and it says Holmes received a telegram from her yesterday I bet he did
and it says it was on August 22nd 1895 and it says um he received a telegram yesterday
purporting to come from Minnie R Williams one of homes is alleged victims it reads Providence Rhode Island to
august 19 1895 the report that I was murdered is absurd I am alive and well yeah and it says Minnie R Williams and
strangely It Was Written in Holmes's writing and it said and it says when the message was shown to Holmes he said
excitedly I knew my story that I did not kill the girl would be confirmed he brushed tears from his eyes and
continued I'm sorry however that she has made herself so public by telegraphing she might as well have written then it
says Providence Rhode Island August 21st the night operator remembers the message
but could not State the time at which it was filed nor could he State whether it
was filed by a man or a woman because he was paid off an inspection of the directory here fails to disclose any
name that can be taken for that of a person indicated by the signature of the message so many R Williams was not alive
at that point and she did not sign for that Telegraph and it was definitely done by somebody helping Holmes
very interesting though that like even an article was written about it yeah that is wild Now by this point he was
hoping to he or excuse me he was hopping to and from various apartments under various names outside of the Murder
Castle to try to stay one step ahead of all the insurance companies that were coming after him uh that's the thing
that I don't understand like con artists like this like aren't you just living in
fear at all times for him I feel like he was in an era where it worked his benefit yeah because
like they can only contact you in so many ways they can only find you so many ways so it's like true hopping around is
really your best bet and it's like I don't think he ever thought he was gonna get caught I thought I think he thinks
he was one step ahead like remember when you were like young and like couldn't pay your bills and you missed one and
then they just called you and called you and called you and the stress of like that feeling yes
I can't imagine like bringing that upon myself like intentionally and having like murdered people names like attached
to it yeah that's a whole lot that's a whole nother thing but he was essentially running from them but they
were always on his tail right and at the same time an insurance investigator named FG Cowie
he tracked homes to a small hotel on Lake Avenue and he went to go question him about that fire
and the only person he found in the hotel was a woman who introduced herself as Mrs Holmes
now it was he was determined to nail homes through like through all of this and this continues later but he couldn't
really get very far with Mrs Holmes yeah what we'll find out is that this was his
next wife who he was saying was Mrs Holmes but they thought this was Minnie okay now
the insurance investigator from before was still convinced Holmes had intentionally set that fire and wanted
homes prosecuted for arson so he looked into the various insurance claims that this man had taken out and
received a [ __ ] ton of money from and in January in 1894 he set a trap he told Holmes the company was going to
pay out the insurance claim and he was like just come to the office in downtown Chicago pick up the check
it's going to be it's fine we're gonna punk you but so Cowie confronted him when he came to pick up the check and he
was like you are an arsonist you burnt down that but we know this and he managed to get homes to confess
that he set the fire intentionally wow but I guess he did that because he knew that in order to be prosecuted for arson
Cowie was gonna have to file the complaint within one year of the fire okay so all that Holmes had to do was
basically Dodge and try to duck and Dodge investigators for six or seven more months and then he'd be in the
clear damn it because if they couldn't get him after a year damn it he was out so he just admitted to it being like
they're not going to catch me right and now they'll at least like I can get out of here so unfortunately for him though
a lot of his other creditors were now aware of all his misdeeds thanks to the attempt at arsoning himself into a
Payday yeah that really put a spotlight on him that'll do it so they contacted they all got together and they contacted
Lafayette mercantiles agency which was a collection agency the manager George Chamberlain organized more than 20 of
his creditors to confront Holmes in a meeting imagine how [ __ ] excited they were they were probably psyched after a
lot of back and forth he agreed to give them over some real estate as collateral
against his deaths and he offered up property that was deeded under the names Kate Durkee and Minnie Williams oh my
goodness he made an intentional clerical error on these forms on the deed transfer because then it bought him more
time because they had to set up another meeting to fix the clerical era oh okay so when they set up they were trying to
set up the third meeting he just skipped town altogether [ __ ] I hate that he was
one step ahead of them he was that's so sad that he was one step ahead so mad but after leaving Chicago because he was
getting out of Chicago now Holmes went to Denver and he went to Denver to claim the insurance payout for bald Baldwin
Williams's death who is Minnie and Danny's Danny's brother which tells you everything you need to know yep he had
forms that were quote unquote signed by Nanny and Minnie giving up claims to their brother's estate and saying that
they were going away together for a long time and that H.H Holmes could take all
the stuff on the estate wow and there's all this stuff about like whether he killed him it's not known it's hard to
find anything on Baldwin Williams or what happened to him okay but it's very sauce it seems to take the insurance
payout on them so yeah weird and while he was in Denver he met back up with a woman that he had been speaking to and
corresponding with for over a year while married to Clara Murda and pretending to
be married to many her name was Georgiana yoke oh that's a pretty name and he had been again talking to her for
at least a year before leaving Chicago He courted her very quickly and on January 17th he married her oh no as
Henry M Howard of Fort Worth Texas and did he actually marry her he married her okay Georgiana yoke was born October 17
1869. a lot more is known about her than most of the other victims I don't know why she was concentrated on more
um she had almost white blonde hair she had super blue eyes that were huge apparently apparently they were so big
that people thought something was wrong with her like they called it like a defect and I was like I love big eyes I
don't understand that back then I guess it's not part of being a classic beauty beauty is in the eye of the bill it
truly is but when she knew homes she was in her early 20s she had been working as a
school teacher in Indiana until early 1893. she actually just like really abruptly left her teaching position and
moved to Chicago to live with an uncle Chicago exactly before leaving that teaching
position I found this very interesting she had heroically saved children she was teaching from a burning School
building holy [ __ ] had run back in and saved them was AJ Holmes the one that Lit it on fire right you would think wow
that's incredible so she's just like a hero poor enough for Georgiana right I'm saying Georgiana right Georgiana it was
while she was in Chicago with her uncle that she met H.H Holmes they met apparently while she was working at the
cloak department at the fairgrounds [ __ ] got you a cloak uh she had also worked at a department store before that
on in the area but apparently Minnie was someone who came there a lot like Georgiana and Minnie definitely meant oh
that's weird yeah I don't like that yeah no I don't like it too close to home um
and like nearly all of the women that H.H Holmes ever came in contact with or anything else in his life for that
matter um his interest in Georgiana I mean she was beautiful yeah but it definitely had
a lot to do with money in 1893 the year that they met georgiana's grandmother had passed away
oh my God wait wait wait did she get an inheritance she sure did crazy she got a
160 Acre Farm in Indiana well [ __ ] so coincidence I think not no so of course when he left Chicago on the run from all
the insurance claims and debtors um he went to Denver and he knew exactly what he needed to do he needed to find
that girl he was stringing along and marry her to get her money he even told her mother that the mini property was in
Fort Worth Texas was left to him by his uncle false yeah false but strangely he said there was one condition of this
inherited land and it was that Holmes had to take on his late uncle's name Henry Mansfield Howard at some point was
somebody just like you're a [ __ ] liar that's that I'm like no one was like who
would ever make you take on their names like I don't want my name to die so yeah
you have to take my exact name the whole thing apparently georgiano was fine with
that like the strange name changing okay she knew him as H.H Holmes she also knew
a few of his other aliases she just kind of accepted that which is interesting um shows how Charming he could be when
he wanted to be that's the thing because to us we're like who the [ __ ] would believe but but like I would believe
that if somebody Charmed the pants off he's Charming these ladies now later in court she actually Georgiana took the
stand later in court spoiler alert she lives oh yeah so later in court she said that she believed that she knew about
the Wilmette woman okay talking about murder his other wife so she was like I thought she said I knew her I believe I
might have known about her but she didn't remember if he had said they were married or not and I was like that's
crazy Georgian I mean Minor Details wow I was like come on and at one point she was like yeah I mean like I he might
have said that there was a marriage ceremony but I just don't remember and it's like girl that's you know what I'm
here to say it that's not a girl that's not a girl's girl but newspapers at the time
um did and I'm like she was I think she got kind of railroaded in the newspaper so she maybe she was just
being like [ __ ] all y'all uh but newspapers at the time referred to her as an adventurous Spirit which in those
times those times meant a woman of loose morals yeah that's what that meant like
I consider myself like a free spirit but not a woman but back then it would be a
woman of loose morals so I think she was getting like [ __ ] on in the Press so she probably was like [ __ ] everybody
that's what it sounds like now someone who knew Georgiana and Fort Worth a man on my own he said something about her
that I was like wow all right I was like if anybody ever said that about me I'd be like wow that is I'm gonna like
chisel that on something oh maybe I'll say he called her a remarkably beautiful woman and he said it was one of those
winning attractive faces that you cannot get away from any more than you can believe the possessor capable of evil it
was this it was a fresh and beautiful face with the fine hopes and aspirations of Youth in it and one that once seen
seen remained in an indelible memory she wound her way unconsciously Into the Heart of everyone who met her she had
that way about her which takes hold of the roots of things in an instant she was as gentle and refined in Manner and
personal conduct as it was possible to be maybe it's Maybelline I was like damn yeah that's that's is this just like an
acquaintance that said that about you like holy [ __ ] sounds to me like an obsession I was like ah that guy liked
you liked you okay I have pictures of you hung up all around his home and maybe it's not a good thing he had a
crush on you or maybe more and the Holmes is landlord at one point called her the most beautiful woman he had ever
met damn so I was like Georgiana I mean I feel like a Georgiana just has to be pretty yeah and I mean the way they
described her giant blue eyes and white blonde hair yeah like [ __ ] like okay all right Elsa get out of my [ __ ]
face and he also said she appeared to idolize her husband and that he was also very enamored with her and he he said
that he was they were a very affectionate couple I bet so that's interesting now after leaving Denver
Holmes and Georgiana his new wife began making their way to Texas where he intended to claim that land that many
had transferred into his name or as far as Georgiana knew that the uncle had left him yeah the uncle whose name he
now used but before he did this they made a brief stop back in Chicago which I was like Reckless uh he once he was
there he got a new life insurance policy on Georgiana from the Fidelity mutual life Association of Philadelphia and he
took it out to ensure Benz Benjamin pyth cell's life for ten thousand dollars oh
[ __ ] it's getting not good up in here not good it's getting it's getting heat now he had he was very strategic about
this time in his life all the moves he made seem chaotic but they all made sense he was definitely moving from one
state to another just to avoid prosecution creditors but the trip to Denver was to
claim the insurance payout for the policy on Baldwin Williams's life he was able to claim that money uh the
trip to Chicago was done to tie up some loose ends take out the policy on piedcelle's life and then leave the city
forever and Holmes's next move to Fort Worth was to claim that land that Minnie Williams's uncle had left and that she
had transferred into homes and pied cells names unknowingly yeah but when's he gonna find the time to kill pythal
because I know that's what's happening here well what he was thinking was he was going to sell some of the land in
order to get a lot of cash really quick and then on the rest of the land he was going to build a new three-story
building a new Castle the Fort Worth murder cast does that happen that's what he was planning to do okay uh that's
where he was going to be where he planned that pied cell was going to join and they were all going to be part of
this whole scheme together yeah right now it's during this time in Holmes's life that Benjamin pyzel really came
back into the fold in a wild way obviously before he had gotten to Texas with Georgiana he said
son Howard who was 10 years old at the time oh no to start the whole inheritance thing because remember pied
cell can do that because the deed was transferred into his name yeah so he sends him get that started okay so we
can have it going when I get there you little [ __ ] henchman now paitzel's life was definitely a lot of poor
decisions one after the other I feel like it sounds like it he was a heavy drinker from an early age like we said
in part two I believe he had a long history of like Petty crimes um the one that he actually liked the
one that we mentioned in part two he actually had to flee with his wife and four children to Chicago in 1888 ding
ding ding that's where he met Holmes and the connection between homes and piedzel
doesn't really show up on paper until 1893 but that's when he became one of the bidders on Holmes's ABC copier
company when it went to auction auction when he didn't pay any of the creditors okay but in reality we know from part
two that piedcell was part of Holmes's life much earlier than that during the construction of the initial Castle
exactly so they were really playing a long game here making sure that no one knew that connection early on [ __ ]
and there's a lot of speculation as to who did what who knew what when it came to what Holmes was doing but pyzel was
definitely fully aware of all the schemes and he was involved in a lot of them so we talked about in part two that at
one point during the time when he was in Holmes's employee that pitzel had actually gotten arrested in Indiana for
passing bad checks I remember that and Holmes had bailed him out using bad checks yeah but he had bailed him out
and we know that Holmes doesn't do anything out of the goodness of his heart never does no he needed yeah he
didn't do that just a few weeks after bailing him out of jail Holmes sent a letter to pyzel's lawyer asking him to
send pyzel a letter threatening him that he was going to be brought back into custody in Indiana
he said quote he is not doing what he ought to in regard to transferring his house in lot
and it seems that Holmes had been helping to support pyzel and his wife and children while he was in jail and in
exchange they had made some sort of agreement that he was going to sign over the deed to pietzel's house and land oh
[ __ ] so this was a whole Arrangement he had he was only going to do this to get
this and pyzel wasn't moving fast enough for him to get the [ __ ] done and he was
starting to question is he really going to do this so he was like I gotta play that card I'm gonna have his lawyer
threaten him and say that he's going to be arrested again it's also like did you
not see this coming dude like you're a con man he's a con man one of you he's gonna call him the other because that by
this point pyzel had been involved in so many of Holmes's schemes like very involved there's a lot on you deeds in
his name things being transferred around he's bringing him Victory I was just gonna say exactly he's doing all this
stuff he knew how this plays out for people right very rarely do people survive to the end
of these schemes with H.H Holmes it's always him standing alone at the end yeah with all the money all the Deeds
all the [ __ ] everything but all the credits so I don't know how he didn't realize
but he I who knows if he realized that he would ever be a Target but at this point he was going to become a Target it
sounds like he was not just going to be involved he was going to be the actual they were going to be saying hey we need
to have a dead body and take it out and get a false Insurance claim well they weren't going to get a fake dead
body this time ready ready and I'll say it for you I'm not gonna talk about her part three or we're gonna talk about
that next week we're gonna talk about that in part four because when it comes to Benjamin beitzel and
his family and what happens next is just a lot oh [ __ ] and it's a lot to take in
it's a lot to comb through and I really want to give it its own I'm starting to wonder if this [ __ ] is gonna be five
parts I think it's gonna be four you think four I think four I'm gonna make it for it but part four I think is gonna
be a doozy a long ones so everybody Buckle in because we're gonna talk about Jack the Ripper we're gonna talk about
all that [ __ ] we're gonna talk about Pazzo I'm gonna talk about Pat cell we're gonna talk about law it's gonna be
a lot we're gonna see what happens to Georgiana I was just gonna say yeah we're gonna find out how she gets away
because I'm happy that she does yep she sure does and the blue eyes her in her giant blue eyes that they literally
referred to as a defect and I was like [ __ ] girl what that's like of you um have you ever met Christina Ricci that's
an asset like I'm obsessed with Chris like her big eyes I'm like oh Gorge love them absolutely gorgeous Sarah Hyland
come on you know your eyes like are the only part of you that are like as big like like when you're bored they stay
the same size thank you yeah correct well anyways thanks for listening we hope you keep listening and we hope you
keep it wait [Music] because that's really rude and disgusting by it's very especially if
they're Gorge and everybody's gorgeous you're all Gorge little baby she's Elsa and I love you
bye [Music] foreign [Music]

In Part 3, H.H. Holmes isn't done being adulterous and he's taking evil to another level. He's conning wives left and right and then takes to arson to earn a quick buck. Today, we go deeper into the design of his "murder castle" while also watching this con man/killer descend further into madness. What will be his undoing? Stay tuned...

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Brief Summary

H.H. Holmes's manipulative schemes lead to the tragic fates of Minnie and Nanny Williams, with ties to the World's Fair and his Murder Castle.

Key points

The Murder Castle. H.H. Holmes built a castle filled with secret chambers and traps for his victims.
Minnie Williams' Tragic Story. Minnie Williams, an orphan with a fortune, becomes entangled with H.H. Holmes.
Ghosted by a Monster. Holmes lavished attention on Minnie Williams before ghosting her completely.
Minnie Moves to Chicago. Minnie relocates to Chicago to reconnect with Harry, believing it's fate.
Holmes's Manipulation. Holmes charms Minnie into becoming his personal secretary, hiding his true nature.
Holmes's Deceptive Wedding. Holmes marries Minnie in a non-legal ceremony, further entangling her in his schemes.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

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1:23WatchMay 16, 2023

Tension

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