FULL EPISODE: Delia D'Ambra is Crime Junkie AF (John O'Keefe and Karen Read) | Forensic Files

hi crime junkies happy Friday are you surprised to hear from me today well if you haven't heard yet we recently had a
very special announcement over on siriusxm's app we launched their very first ever True Crime Channel crime
junkie radio it's your ultimate destination for 24/7 True Crime but that's not all we are also launching a
brand new show called crime junkie AF where each month I'll be bringing on a special guest to explore the latest
headline cases with me that I cannot stop thinking about we've actually released our very first episode today
but I wanted to make sure that you guys didn't miss it and I wanted to make sure
you knew what to expect every month Hereafter so I'm dropping this first episode in our feed it is an episode
with special guest who you guys know dilia deambra and her and I get to talk about something that is going on in True
Crime right now that is one of the most wild cases I have come across in years I'm telling you it is a doozy of a story
and if you like the show if you like the format please head over to the Sirius XM
app and follow crime junkie AF so you don't miss this brand new show brand new episodes are going to be dropping at the
end of every single month and of course I'm not going to leave my crime junkies hanging there's actually a promo code
Link in the show notes of this episode that will give you 90 days free access to Sirius xm's app so make sure you use
that code and I'll see you over there in the app but first enjoy this [Music] episode hi everyone I'm Ashley flowers
and welcome to my new show on SiriusXM made by a crime junkie Ashley flowers for people who are crime junkie AF my
plan is to come here every month and share with you the cases you have to know about you have to be able to talk
about beyond the clickbaity headlines but like really get into and I don't want to do that alone it's more than
just storytelling I want to have conversations uh with other people people who are experts in their field
journalists uh different forensic experts people who are actually connected to these cases so I don't I
know I'm probably should do like a bigger intro since it's the first show but I'm just dying to get into the case
that we're talking about today so uh my first guest if you are a crime junkie you know her you love her Miss dilia DM
hi I'm so excited to be here this is so awesome I don't like get to do crime dunky stuff as much it's so fun to focus
on this I am jazzed um for people who don't know you we have been working together for five six years now oh my
gosh been a minute uh dilia is one of the most tenacious investigative journalists I have ever met in my life
she hosts the limited series counterclock which is an investigative series you are currently working on
season well season seven but a season six is about to come out I yeah you know me I'm like it's like making a movie I'm
like years ahead yeah yeah yeah yeah you also host Park Predators you had a new show come out with us dark Arenas uh so
you are very well known in the podcast field very well known in the journalism field and you and I because we've known
each other a long time um I texted you as soon as I asked you to come on I was like we get to play my favorite game
with with you which is conspiracy or incompetence cuz every time you and I get in a case together I'm like it goes
all the way to the top and you're always like they probably just don't know what
they're doing I mean I always want to be on the side of like hey you can't just like say the most like wild thing but at
the same time like some of these cases and this case that you that we were going to talk about today it is that it
is the sense of like does it go this far like this so deep and so that's definitely something that I'm like I've
had way too many runs and before you knew we were coming here did you know this case I did not know it like
intimately but the headline like the headline like I had remembered so this case happened in January late January
2022 which for those of you that don't know you and I were having children like literally birthing children at that time
so postpartum like I remember in those weeks after you know when when my son is sleeping like hours a day right and
there's nothing to do I remember just kind of like peeking into the real world and me like what's happening and this
headline was one that stood out probably on Twitter or probably on X or something
like that and I just remember being like what that seems really like wonky so I didn't have like anything but like truly
this share headline which is really interesting and the headline is breaking news Karen Reed Karen Reed Karen Reed is
her name charged with murder in the January 2022 death her boyfriend Boston police officer John
o' so Karen Reed this woman in Boston is accused of killing her boyfriend John O'Keefe who was a Boston police officer
and it's interesting when you're talking about the headlines cuz actually one of
the first things that I read when I was really diving into this was a piece that
was written by one of John O'Keefe's friends and it was all about the family's perception of this because this
case has really grown Beyond just what are the facts or that the fact that she's going to trial it has taken on a
life of its own the conspiracy theories are wild in this case and the thing she said is she said this has become about
Karen and it is about Karen she's the one who's going to trial but she said John has gotten lost in all of this her
friend has gotten lost and people are forgetting the real family that is behind this tragedy and they do believe
that Karen's responsible they think the right person is going to trial and whether I agree with that or not one of
the things I took away from the article is this woman said everyone reads the headline maybe they read a little bit
beyond that but very few people actually have read the court documents and can speak to it that way and are forming
their own opinions and so that's what I wanted to do coming into this is thanks to the Boston Globe they actually have
been the ones who have been going out requesting so many of these records these Court proceedings these filings
these motions and they've made all of that available online so everything we're going to talk about today doesn't
come from a flashy headline it comes directly from these very long very legal court documents but I want to try to put
all in a way that people understand yeah because the people that know this case the absolute best at this point are the
ones that have crafted these documents and so really like that is key to a case like this where there's so much going on
because like you said there is so much that sort of polluted the you know space around this story and this headline so
these documents are really the people who've been putting their heart and soul into this case for so long so I think
that's where you get that level of credibility that is good and it's interesting because you get narrative
piece by piece every every filing every document you get one more thing that you
can file away like oh this fills in that Gap or oh this contradicts that so I want to give you kind of an overview of
the case itself or at least what the prosecution originally put forward in their like statement of the case so this
all started in the very end of January 2022 this is in Canton Massachusetts which is right outside of Boston and at
the center of our story is John O'Keefe the victim and his girlfriend Karen Reed
that night they go out to a bar they're drinking they're together they go to another bar called the waterfall and
that's where they meet up with some of John's acquaintances it seems like he knows one woman there this woman named
Jennifer mcab and he knows Jennifer's husband Matthew and maybe one or two other people there Karen has only met
these people like a handful of times everyone's drinking everyone who's there that night even the court documents say
this in the like initial statement of filing that is happy no one's fighting everyone's having a good time the bars
start to close down um this is around midnight or everyone decides to go but they're not ready to call it a night one
of the people there this man named Brian Albert who is also with he's a police officer himself he heads up like a
pretty big unit and he's like you know what everyone come back to my house it was his son's birthday or was about to
be his birthday his son had some friends over he's like we can keep it going there so they head out they go back to
Brian's house and there's some texts exchanged between Jennifer and John where he's like hey where are we going
he calls to get directions they all head back and Karen and John are seen like walking to her
car she gets in the driver's seat and presumably they make it because people who were at the house Jennifer talks
about this her husband Matthew talks about this they see a dark SUV which is what Karen was driving right outside of
of the front door and she's even Jennifer is even texting John like are you like are you coming in she even says
Hey pull up right behind me meaning like pull up in the driveway at some point the vehicle moves like one to one and a
half Cars length up so I mean we're still right in front of the house and I don't know did you get a chance to look
at Google Maps I did I you know I did of course you did I live on Google Maps I and this is where I uh in the court
documents there's all this talk about again they break this down 15 different ways 15 different times um about when
this car moves up and it goes it says you know goes to the you know left of the property or whatever by the flag
pole and the fire hydrant and for some reason when I'm reading this in black and white I'm imagining that she's going
like around the side of the house like and not being seen by people and if if you Google the address it's I mean
everything can be seen from the from the house it's all visible yes and it's not
it's not a huge property we're talking a regular neighborhood and a regular subdivision so the moves up a little bit
but then John never comes in the house Karen doesn't go in the house either and the next thing anyone knows is they're
getting calls from Karen saying that John didn't come home I'm worried that something happened I'm worried that he's
dead I mean what exactly she said and how distraught she was is a little bit Up For Debate again depending depending
on who's telling the story and she meets up she goes to meet up with Jennifer mccab they meet up with
another friend Carrie and the three of them go back to Brian Albert's house to see if they can find him that's the last
place like in her mind right where I that's where I left him yeah now on top of this it is a blizzard yeah wide out
wi out which is like the timing of it if you put it in a novel someone would be like I don't know it feels like a little
a little much yeah it feels like it's just like a scene setting thing yeah like a it had started snowing the night
before but we are talking full-on blizzard almost white out conditions in the morning so when they're driving up
Carrie and Jennifer say they don't see anything but almost right away Karen says that she sees him she pulls open
the van or where the vehicle the door whatever like hops out and goes to him and he is he's laying there in the snow
they say there's like 6 inches of snow on top of him his phone is underneath him I don't know if they move him or
what but immediately two of them start performing CP are and one of them calls 911 so 911 comes and there's a lot said
people are saying that Karen is completely distraught one firefighter even says that she is saying I hit him I hit him
yeah she's making these declarations that are like whoa what's going on and he's pronounced dead at the hospital
later um his injuries were mostly to his head and to his forearm so according to
the autopsy he had several abrasions to his right forearm two swollen black eyes
a small Cut Above the right eye a cut to the left side of his nose a 2-in laceration on the back right side of his
head multiple skull fractures that resulted in bleeding of the brain and the autopsy will later note that he has
um his pancreas is a very dark red which indicates hypothermia which they say contributed to his death so he was
injured they say he's made incapacity ated and that's why he's laying in the snow but then he he really died from
hypothermia and then he has that snow on top of him right the snow fall that's Fallen that that covered him so that
that's another indication that he has been out there for a period of time six inches of snow on top of him yeah like
and I know snow can fall fast in the Boston area but I think all that right like you said that plus his autopsy
results showed that you know he was there and you very well could have been still trying to live and that's super
heartbreaking for sure now nobody comes out of the house from what's been said reported whatever again everyone wants
to make a lot of that it's also a blizard other neighbors aren't even coming out of the house to to see what's
going on with all the police there it's freezing Karen is taken to the hospital as well they end up pulling a blood
sample from her and they're able to determine um it's 9:00 in the morning by the time they pull that blood sample but
backtracking it they think that her blood alcohol was somewhere between .13 and2 9 at the time she would have been
dropping him off which was I think about like between 12:40 is 12:45 like that time in the morning so what ends up
happening pretty quickly like within a couple of days of his body being found is they end up charging Karen with
manslaughter basically saying that she backed over him because she was drunk and he died of hypothermia and it's her
fault now do you want talk about why they think that she backed over him I mean there's been like there's been so
many reasons right but I mean the issues with their relationship and the voicemails and stuff like that well
that's what the charge will get changed later but when the C there's a a State Trooper so originally Canton PD comes
Canton PD gets conflicted out of the case because there's all these police officers there so they bring in the
State Police that state police officer goes to get Karen statement after she's released from the hosital hospital she's
staying at her parents house and he says he notices that her tail light her passenger side rear tail light is broken
so that becomes part of their theory is that she backed into him the tail light broke as a result of that and again she
was drunk this is a tragic accident so she's charged and at the time that she is charged it all happens again really
fast she meets with her lawyer like while she's there at the court and then the lawyer comes out and says something
to the Press where like this is a tragic accident like we're going to you know figure this
out she's devastated whatever and and that's kind of all it was and then I don't know that it would have made
national headlines if it ended there but it doesn't end there because shortly after her lawyer this tipster had called
his office and so after he goes and he gives this statement he calls this tipster back and I'm going to read it
directly it says uh or what they say this tipster said is quote your client is innocent John was beaten up by Brian
Albert and his nephew they broke his nose and when O'Keefe didn't come to Brian and a federal agent dumped his
body on the front lawn end quote now it's worth noting where that was reported it said that an attorney for
the man that this like the man that was identified says that this did not happen
the tipster lawyer yeah so a law a journalist did track down the like the actual tipster and theer lawyer is like
nope didn't say that so is it is it right so and again right now all it is is just this like kind of
wild hairbrained tip but it kind of starts working its way into the back of everyone's mind and what Karen talks
about on she did an interview with Nightline is that she is up one night she starts just going on Facebook
because she can't even figure out to me the big question is like why is this even happening like why and she starts
finding pictures of the police who are investigating the case connected to the people who were at the house that night
doesn't again what's the motive what's the why I don't know but something feels fishy and is this some kind of cover up
and so this is when things really start to explode a little bit and shortly after all of this too so what was a
manslaughter charge they end up changing they end up coming and recharging her with second degree murder
and leaving the scene of an accident which is you know it's kind of like okay duh but it is an extra charge now I
didn't really understand why go out you already had her on manslaughter you're saying she was drunk
you're saying this would but like so then why why do that why go to that extra step like I don't get it well and
I think something that sort of would make that make sense is if they continue to investigate and they discover issues
in the relationship which they did preceding the event and I think in this case as they continued to work the
investigation whatever law enforcement officials were working the investigation whether they were connected to some of
the witnesses or not they began to discover hey was this truly an accident and they started to ask the question of
what preceded these events and I think that's what led them to go hey I think that maybe we can sell that more to a
jury right like a second degree they're having potential issues there's this moment of issue and and and passion and
passion and Heat of the Moment kind of thing that's a lot easier to sell to 12 strangers right like when you're going
to like take someone to court and like try and get you know a solid conviction but if you just go with manslaughter of
like oh this is a tragic accident like I I'm thinking of where they were looking
ahead to the future of a court proceeding I get that but I this is like the such the problem I have with the
legal system it's like it's not I want to say it's not about winning it's about what happened and if what if what
happened was an accident was drunk driving charge her with that and listen to be fair they do fine stuff right
there there is a reason that they think that there was a motive so they say the prosecution says
that they in looking at John O'Keefe the victim's phone they find a series of text messages leading up to his death
leading up to the night at waterfall the defendant and O'Keefe exchanged several
text messages about their strained relationship in the voicemails that the defendant left O'Keefe on January 29th
2022 and that is the the morning the early morning hours when he's found she stated you are using me right now you
are another girl you are a loser yourself she called him a pervert and she yelled at him John I hate
you that right there the discovery of that and when they discovered that to me would feed into potentially why they
changed that charge like I think it was a factor I don't think it was necessarily the entire Factor but that
right there says something and I think that that they're they're building out this story that there were clearly
problems in their relationship and they get this from really John's niece so and
again to make sure John doesn't get lost in all of this John had actually taken in his niece and nephew his sister had
died and then his sister's husband died shortly after that tragic yeah he the single man he was the one to take them
in and so they obviously Liv with him Karen didn't live with them but she stayed the night at their house all the
time and there was a story that was told or a couple especially by the niece and
the nephew they say you know they were fighting a lot in the time leading up to it the niece had said you know there's
this incident where basically John was like I I think it's this isn't working out like this is getting unhealthy but
Karen was really against ending the relationship she didn't want to leave his house there also is this story about
them vacationing in Aruba on for like New Year's Eve which would have been again we're talking less than a month
fire and an incident where he had gone out Karen said he had gone out drinking he doesn't come home till 3:00 in the
morning she's you know bringing in the new year with with his niece and nephew and she comes out of the elevator and
he's hugging someone she thinks maybe kissing someone they everyone says there was no kiss but it's it it was enough
that it was an incident everyone talks about yeah I think it just like whatever that story is again the more law
enforcement learns of things like that the more they're going let's widen out the scope of this very uh specific
incident that we think we're looking at let's widen now and I think all those things really contribute to that and
that's what makes it too like just very personal I think that's why people get interested in this kind of story right
because a lot of people like everyone has relationships everyone has drama in their life but that's what kind of
perpetuates I think too some of that interest is like well what about this and what about that and that's it's wild
but what I what I have a hard time piecing together is how do you everyone says they were getting along that night
or at least not fighting that night everyone says everything was good that night and here you know what is Karen's
memory I don't know because I will say again first we get this story and it might have been her lawyer saying this
was an accident she doesn't remember but we have people who were initially with her the two women in the car saying
something to the effect of of of her giving them a statement I don't even remember going to Brian's like I last
thing I remember was being at the waterfall like I don't remember last night then she has a story a a memory so
oh and in the first story by the way she had didn't plan to go to Brian's even or
I guess the second story when she remembered that they were going to go there I don't know yeah it was like I
was just going to drop him off and leave anyway because I was having stomach issues right I'm going to drop him off
I'm going to leave I'm having stomach issues and then the second time around it's her story is and this is what she
told Nightline was I didn't know if we were invited I didn't actually again we don't know Brian Albert personally I
didn't hear him invite me or invite John so we're going there but I want to just
like walk into the house like of someone I don't know so understandable yeah I get it so she said I told John like go
in and make sure it's cool for us to be here so she said she's waiting in the car and waiting in the car and he's not
coming and not coming and so then she finally gets pissed and is like oh he just ditched me and forgot that I'm
sitting here waiting for him and so she leaves do I love that the story changed absolutely not do I understand they're
already having problems can you picture her leaving that voicemail when she thinks he ditched her while she's
waiting outside for him yeah those connections could totally be made and I want to go back and look at the
situation where it is John texting Jennifer mccab to coordinate the meeting up at Brian Albert's house like after
the bar I think some people on that face would go well wait a minute like if Karen and had these s of issues about
these things she's claiming in this voicemail like John texting you know another woman even in Friendly like Hey
we're all having a party come back to my house like you could see where that might escalate right in a in a in a
drunken state where it's like you went into this house you didn't come back you were texting this other person like this
other woman I think that like right to your point like that could all feed into I'm going to make these nasty voicemails
and then out and you're you're drunk we know you nothing is better with alcohol yeah no and late at night so so she
claims that she left that she was trying to text and call him she ends up falling
asleep on the couch and then it's 4:30 in the morning when she again wakes up realizes he's not there she goes to get
his niece to call Jennifer McCabe and then you know everything else is pretty much the
same all right so I I we are limit on time we have an hour I could keep going and going in like the details of even
though text messages and those times of the text messages because I think that becomes important later so maybe we'll
hit it but I want to go back to the physical evidence yet cuz we're still laying the scene to even get to the
conspiracy stuff later so at the scene when we talk about physical evidence again what do they have to even charge
Karen so where JN was found they said that they found pieces of glass which their story or or the theory is he is
actually seen on video surveillance when they leave the waterfall whatever time that was he actually takes a short clear
glass out with him he's seen on video so they're thinking that's the glass that he was holding I think some of that
glass is also found in her bumper they say they also say that they find some pieces of red plastic and white plastic
whatever they think like oh this could be tail light pieces similar similar is there at the scene and some I laugh this
they found some patches of blood spots of blood here's where things get wild so the glass and the blood is collected
first but deia I sent you a picture of how they collected the blood I actually didn't even know what I was looking at
at first when you sent it to me but yes the picture is a like brown Grocery Store bag and there's six red Solo cups
in the bottom that all have what appear to be little clumps of snow in them and then you told
me what is in the clumps of snow that's the blood or and in in the Solo Cup so what they yeah these officers on the
scene were and granted again it's a blizzard so you're you're in a Race Against Time I that's the only but who
Solo cups are these they're not the cups I think they're a neighbors and I hope they're not used but what yeah so what
world does that make sense it doesn't to me but they collect the blood evidence in Solo cups and that's that's all that
they initially collect right and again so his phone's underneath him they obviously collect that as well this is
where things start to get a little fishy in my mind because they go back again multiple time and it's even that same
day or whatever but there is a point where they take a snow blower and they're blowing the top layer of snow
off looking for more things and the first time they found him by the way he's missing one of his shoes so
this the second time that they go back they find his other shoe and that's when they start finding tail light pieces why
those red tail light pieces didn't stick out before is a big question to me because you said that the massachusett
state police investigator like early on noted that the tail light was broken so you would think that going back in
additional searches that would be like something you're actually looking for if you have this theory of is this a hit
and run yeah but you you would also think that the first time that when you removed John's body and you found you
found pieces of clear glass yeah on the ground in the snow you didn't find pieces of red plastic yeah I don't I
that's a hard thing to wrap your mind around but I also just know and you know as well that whenever additional
evidence is found on subsequent searches that is so par for the course like in terms of just happens all the time all
it does and I mean they went and again there was so much snow that day they went back multiple times and it's almost
it's one of those things where it's like they keep finding more and more and more
it said that some of Jon's DNA was on a piece of tail they don't they don't get specific though we don't have again this
hasn't gone to trial yet so I don't have a lot of the details how much tail light
what piece of the tail light I haven't seen anything that said that any of the tail light was found on him on his
clothing anything like that which you pointed out yeah that would to me if you have these little shards and pieces that
are recognizable enough in snow you would think that would be in his or on his clothing um the fact that he is on
the ground and had been there a while that stuff probably wouldn't have moved so I that's what I was really curious
about so they obviously took her car they processed her car this happens on February 1st after they take like an
initial the massachusett state police crime people or whatever they do the initial pass at her car they don't spot
this but then they bring in someone they bring in a forensic scientist named marvine hartnet and she probably works
like for them again but she comes in and she's the one who ends up finding this hair it's it's referred to as hair so
singular hair as far as I can tell on Karen's car and this is is like what they keep pointing to on the bumper yeah
that they're like oh like again we don't maybe we don't have the tail light on him we don't like but they find this
apparent hair on the rear passenger side quarter panel so all they have so they had glass in her bumper which was like
again that's not that's not John on her bumper right but then they get this apparent hair and they're like this is
this is the proof that like he his head made contact with her car now this hair is talked about non stop and it's this
case is getting litigated before it goes to trial I mean in the media not non stop these motions are becoming public
they're fighting about these in in hearings and this hair is something that they keep pointing to over and over
again and at some point the defense is even like well we want to do our own testing but then the state won't release
it to them and it becomes this big point of contention well fast forward their Massachusetts State Police their lab it
takes them a year to even examine it and I don't know if it just didn't become important then or I mean over this year
is when things really the conspiracy theories really started to tick up I don't know but over a year whatever this
next year they look at the hair the Massachusetts state lab says that there is no human DNA detected when they
finally examine it which what which is yeah this is your if this is one of your pieces of key evidence like that's not
even a human hair yeah so the prosecution what they do that's obviously not the results they want so
they want a contract with an outside private lab Bodie the defense is like okay before before you do that we want
to like examine it you might use up everything in testing that ends up getting denied and but if this was their
only piece of putting JN on the car what do you have nothing so if we're still talking about JN his injuries again
how's the hair on the bumper the other thing I want to talk about I it's really hard for me to understand how his
injuries come from being run over again if you want to say it's an accident then
she's going a few miles an hour back up whatever if you want to say it was intentional second deegree murder maybe
she was going a little faster but nobody saw that more than anything he's a tall
guy how is her tail light meeting his head he the only injuries he has really below his neck are his forearm is all
cut uph the people who think Karen Reed is innocent and Being Framed say it looks like a dog scratched or bit his
arm what everyone kind of conveniently leaves out on Karen side he's got these bruises on the backsides of both of his
hands that they say look like defensive wounds so explain it to me deia I know I
can't and and I get the whole like okay sequence of events right but from what I
know from talking to a lot of forensic Pathologists when people have those impact and like heavy pressure right
like getting run over by a car tire or you know getting sideswiped it doesn't necessarily look how we like think it
should look which is that like that blunt force trauma injury but I mean yeah those scratches on the right
forearm specifically are really significant to me and I think even in some of the images they really stand out
but like the dog bite marks that is introduced by the defense and that really leads down and supports the path
and the theory of was it someone at that hom dog that did that and that brings a
lot of questions in so yeah the injuries are to wrap your head around but there are some things that like a logical
person could say maybe in my mind like for his injuries you had brought up something to me the other day you're
like what if he got like stuck in like or or he was like getting out of the car and then fell yeah so my thought is if
he's getting out of the passenger side and stepping out that passenger side door is going to be open the the left
side of his body is going to be more in the car right and if he is standing in that space or getting out and the car
begins to go in reverse he's going to fall down more likely on his right side and he's going to get run over and
potentially dragged under that tire you're talking about snow car tires don't just like peel out in the snow
they it they behave differently and so I'm wondering if he got dragged for a little bit and then that pressure of
being it sounds terrible compressed like but that doesn't add up to me because he's not found in the street he's found
in the in the yard yeah so that's another thing it's like okay where again the sequence of events where's the car
oriented to him if in fact this is how this happened yeah there's a lot of questions and it makes me like want to
like the one thing that would convince me without a doubt would be video of some sort of things but in this case the
video you brought that up and I was like wait there's a video and you're like well there is and there
is so we can we'll start to get into a little bit of this conspiracy because the video that we have the video that
has been introduced is video from johon O'Keefe's house he's got a ring camera and he had two cameras one was at his
front door one was over his driveway and we've got video from over his driveway of Karen Reed so she wakes up at 4:30
she's calling around at around 507508 she backs out of the driveway and this is her she's on her way to go to
Jennifer mccab they're going to go look for John she backs out and here's where things get really interesting is because
John's car is in the driveway she was in the garage she backs out and wouldn't you know it that passenger side rear
tail light comes awfully stinking close if not potentially hits John's car we will have this video in the
source material you like people have analyzed this to death but she backs up and people will say that you can see her
and I can kind of see it you can kind of to see her car just shake just ever so slightly back and forth when it
potentially makes contact so when she like pulls forward and drives away that's when you can see on the camera
her tail light is broken now the prosecution specifically lays out in their statements like they even address
it they're like she almost comes close to but does not and then you see her tail light's broken because she broke it
when she ran over John the defense says no that's when her tail light was broken
now it would be really easy to solve this let's just see when she came home that night if it's
broken but that video doesn't exist and we don't know why it doesn't exist so the prosecution the cops have kind of
alluded to oh well you know she had access to his ring system on her phone and on the app maybe she deleted it I
could say the same thing that you know anyone who had access to John's phone I know it was in police custody could have
deleted it because they basically said they have all these incidents between they about 15 incidents between 6:00
p.m. that night and then 6:00 a.m. but they do not have her coming home that's super frustrating because I'm like it
completely destroys the timeline of the prosecution if her tail light is not broken when she gets home if there could
be proof of that it destroys the timeline right if it is broken it doesn't just destroy the timeline it
destroys their whole Theory yeah it destroys the whole Theory but then I'm also thinking we go back to this it was
a blizzard I know out and I know cuz I have the same system at my home that like if there's like a spiderweb or like
a lot of condensation or Frost or whatever that that technology doesn't always capture every single motion event
that's happening it's super unfortunate that it doesn't capture this one thing but to your point I want to know like in
that app like who can delete stuff is there like a meta data trail for that because that right there should be able
to tell you like which user of the app did it just not register it yeah or there's got there's got to be something
yeah this is 2024 like how are we not or 2022 when this is happening well yeah but come on we've got to be able to look
at that and well apparently they're using new technology as it pops up because if you want to pop to another
big thing that people who believe in a conspiracy theory point to is it goes back to Tech
so there ised l a search on Jennifer McCabe's phone at 2:27 in the morning 2:27 is hours before Karen is supposed
to have called her and said John didn't come home let's go look for him at 2:27 there is a search on her phone that
says quote hos long to die in cold they believe that it was supposed to be how long to die in
cold why is Jennifer mccab searching that at 227 well why is her phone searching
that such such a tech technicality yes why is her phone searching that right this alarming because we know now with
the evidence in John's autopsy that there is this factor that he died out in the snow and the cold uh
I don't love it I think again for people that support Karen Reed's side of things
it would be indicative there are people at that home who are in his company that
are trying to figure out what to do with him which is again super disturbing but
again I go back to what I said about the driveway footage like what is the metadata situation and what can
investigator DET this where this is where it gets really messy because originally when they when the defense
was given everyone's phone records this search wasn't even included it comes out comes out later
and they what the prosecution is saying is no they're like Karen asked Jennifer like as they're out there plee like
search see how long it takes like I'm is he dying is he already dead and there are searches at 623 and 624 for that as
well now granted the 911 call is 604 or something like that so it's like 20 minutes the timing doesn't totally
add up yeah but they're like no it was just there was a web page that was opened at 227 and then if you use that
web page they had all these excuses for it and okay fine here's the here's the big thing
that comes in so it comes out later that another software basically was used to do this phone extraction and that
software supposedly and it's one done by the feds says that it was at 227 like we
can stop talking about it that's what the defense search was made at 2:27 a.m. MH and I don't know how you explain that
I don't think you can explain it I'll be very interested to see how it's explained in court at trial I think
that's absolutely something a jury is going to if we're so hung up on it that's what 12 strangers are going to go
let me find the answer to that question there's some other phone data that's really interesting too so they he had an
iPhone and Jennifer McCabe had an iPhone and they've got the Apple Health Data you know they're always being laed
always being tracked and it says that John took some steps around the time that he would have if Karen story is
true he would have been going into the house and the defense says look that's proof that he left the car and and
didn't just get run over right there he wouldn't have done that he he climbed three flights of stairs he was in that
house but the prosecution says no It also says that he's taking steps after he's found dead at 6:00 a.m.
now I say of course it shows that it's taking it doesn't know like John is taking steps it's the phone is moving
the phone had got collected it's getting moved from Department to Department as they're you know figuring out what to do
with it so the to me him moving around after he's dead that's not of course that's not him like like it seems like a
weird thing to even point out they also the Health Data also says that Jennifer McCabe is up all night like pacing she
doesn't go to bed she says she's woken up by a call from Karen that she can't find John but Apple Health Data says no
ma'am yeah and that okay that's not the best look for her but I go back to what I said it's her phone that's pacing
around so I'm always on the side of devices are devices and they are in the hands of whoever is holding and it does
not mean that that is the owner so I get not as hung up on that the search is what's to me of like great interest
someone is plugging that search in and they can find out what time and where you can explain the device thing to me I
guess for Jennifer but everyone has agreed Jon's phone is found under his body so I don't know how I the activity
before he dies yeah is hard that's hard to wrap my head around as well is he in the home is he walking around the yard
is he getting in and out of a vehicle yeah that's like that's really hard to to face so this is all the stuff that
that they're fighting about right there's you know the defense is like there's no way his injuries were made
this way the tail light they're going so far as to accuse the lead investigator of planting the evidence they say that
he I don't know where he got tail light but he planted the evidence they're making a lot of accusations he's
covering up for them that sound wild now it all sounds wild until it comes out that the federal
government is is conducting an investigation simultaneously now what they're conducting an investigation
into is not totally confirmed but we know that they're calling all of the same Witnesses so the defense at one
point gets a like Rumblings of this because the thing I'm not going into that's like it is the honestly a huge
part of this case is one of the biggest supporters of Karen Reed is this online blogger YouTuber who was by the named
turtle boy and there has been a ton of controversy around him he's been accused of harassing Witnesses like there's a
there's a lot of stuff there but so I assume that it's you know through all of that the defense gets some kind of tip
that hey your Witnesses are being there's been a grand jury that indicted Karen but there is another grand jury
that's happening that they're getting called for and it's you know it's not one of them it's all of them and it
seems like they're investigating the same thing you are simultaneously which is really out of the norm to have a
federal investigation happening simultaneously in tandem with a state investigation into a second degree
formally manslaughter charge that right there raises the profile for me and everything that people are saying this
is unprecedented yeah usually they let things play out and if there's something to look into if if it's prosecutorial
misc conduct if it is something I don't even think they would deal necessarily because there's also at the same time
there ends up being an internal investigation into Michael Proctor who's the lead investigator for how he handled
it and did he have a conflict of interest and did he lie about that conflict because he knew a lot of the
witnesses at Brian Albert's house yeah but but but again that's being handled by Internal Affairs what is the federal
government investigating so when the defense starts hearing this they they basically go to the prosecution they're
like what is going on here like if you're calling these witness something is happening that we haven't gotten in
Discovery and they do basically notice a discovery and the da responds and it's like listen we have no idea what's going
on we don't know about a federal investigation so there's nothing for us to give you well so that's in December
of 2023 cut to Fox 25 had actually been working on a public records request which they succeeded in getting and you
know I don't know exactly like the the days but like as they're getting this the da is like oh we found some things
that we would like to give you and they are Communications from back in May so they asked for this in December months
before there are email Communications from the District Attorney's Office the Commonwealth to the United States
attorney's office where the United States attorney's office in May confirms yeah we're doing an investigation so
they knew we're subpoenaing your witness and you know if you need to disclose oh
and like the emails are also just like shady themselves because the da is like you know if you do anything we're going
to have to share it which is basically like don't mess it up to share it with the defense yeah and it's it's been said
that there was like some shady stuff even on the other side and that the state's attorney is like well you don't
have to share what you don't have back and forth back the point is that they knew this was going on and all of that
gets disclosed so there is this federal investigation and in doing so the federal investigation they didn't have
to but they end up releasing like 3,000 pages of their investigation to the defense and to the prosecution part of
what they've gotten and I've you know inferred this just from some of the filings is testimony from their grand
jury hearings where people are main people from their case are being asked about again it's clearly about John
O'Keefe's death or the investigation into it and this is how we learn that Michael Proctor the lead investig Ator
for sure had a conflict of interest and not only did he have a conflict of interest they went out of their way to
make people believe he didn't I mean there was did you see the video from the da yeah oh yeah that's a very bold very
bold thing for a district attorney to do because there there were Rumblings right
even early on like I said very early on Karen's like trying to figure out who's connected to who yeah and the da I mean
I like it was firm he was like there is no propriety basically there like he has
no conflict of interest this is all some wild fishing Expedition but you know what perpetuates that though when you
keep a secret from the defense that a federal investigation is going on that could potentially result in exculpatory
information for your client so if the defense is already going down this what the prosecution is saying a conspiracy
theory you're perpetuating that District attorne by hiding and not being forthright so like if that's what you're
saying then part of the blame could be on you in your office like did the da know like was Michael hiding for
everyone and it's I mean it's very clear so 10 days before John dies Michael Proctor the lead investigator is texting
with Julie Albert who is related to Brian Albert whose house it was about babysitting his child that is someone
you know yeah no doubt you trust with your kid more concerning is that two days after John died there are text
messages between Michael Proctor and Michael Proctor's wife and Michael Proctor's wife is relaying a message it
says quote just saw Julie they're talking about Julie Albert and Julie said when all this is over she wants to
give you dot dot dot a thank you gift I don't know if the dot dot dot is leaving
out things I don't know if it was a true like dot dot dot and apparently he responded and said that the gift should
be sent to his wife and not him I don't love communication like that because right you can read into it 10 different
ways but I think what that says in the big picture is you're too close for comfort and because of that again you
could be perpetuating a lot of questions and nendos and theories that ultimately
bring your integrity into question and in a case that that is at the core of it at this point that's super problematic
Julie Albert actually comes into this a little bit more too because we haven't really heard much about her was she
there that night was her her husband is her named Chris Albert were they there that night were they not there that
night nobody really seems to agree which is really strange there was some grand jury testimony they're both at the
waterfall we know that before Julie say she would goes home early with a headache Chris walked home when everyone
left the bar the defense says that there is a February 21st report memorializing
a statement that the officer or whatever took from them back on the 10th so this
is like memory of a statement that happened you know days ago but it says that they did go back to Brian Albert's
after so the defense is like you didn't even point out this inconsistency in the
original grand jury that indicted her were they were there were they not there so so the only Theory when I talk about
motive because again that's like the what the heck happened John barely knew these people the only Theory I've seen
anyone come up with is that he got into it with Brian's nephew again that's the original tipster said something happened
with Brian and his nephew and so for for there to be a lot of questions was Chris
there was Chris not there for his wife to be the one like we want to give you a gift when all of this is over very
suspicious well I think the question is is if you're looking at a in the moment something happened in that house the
question naturally is okay who had the beef who had the beef with Jon O'Keefe even if it was in the momentary Split
Second you know you spilled a drink on me or something or is it something that preceded it where there's this kind of
growing uh issue and I think that's where we need to get to the bottom of who was in the house when did they get
there when did they leave all of that surrounding the timeline of when we know John Dies it's it's hard what they had
always said is that everyone stayed for about an hour and then people left or went to bed this is also what's strange
to me because you have people leaving the house at say 1 1:30 like around that that time nobody sees John laying in the
yard and this is not a big property I like I can't wrap my head around it yeah how can you not see that unless you're
just blackout which we know some of these Witnesses were not some were drunk some were not blackout but then yeah how
do you not see someone lying there because we know at 1 and even 132 he's not covered in those six inches of snow
yet so my question is are there external Witnesses like people that were driving
on that street or working the blizzard conditions right there's supposedly a snowplow driver who was plowing the
street at 2:30 who according to the defense is willing to testify that he did not see Jon out in the yard at 2:30
in the morning I mean that's a good witness for sure but I again my mind goes to like
video can we strap some video cameras on these snow plows for the future so that
they can start just more ring cameras I'm shocked that there's nothing and maybe there there's something that will
come out in trial but I'm shocked that none of the neighbors have anything that is helping solve that or like piece that
together now you talked about who is in the house who's not in the house what do
these there are witnesses driving by but I think there that's what's so wowed me
there are a lot of Witnesses in that house there are a lot of people I said this early on who talk about seeing
Ken's car one of the people in the house was another like person- in-law enforcement whose name is also Brian and
that's Brian Higgins and there's some strange communication so again everyone says that they they leave after an hour
or so everyone's asleep but then you again you have weird movements you have a phone
moving there's also some calls reportedly between Brian Albert and Brian Higgins in those early morning
hours the federal probe revealed that Brian Albert called him after 2: a.m. and then Higgins called Brian Albert
back both men say that these were butt dials even though they also say that they were sleeping and they're were
supposed to be together at the same house earlier in the night well earlier in the night right right yeah but they'
like left at this point and then they're calling each other so it doesn't totally
add up I think that would raise questions right any communication between any members of these Witnesses
after the fact throughout that night should certainly be observed these stand out out for a lot of reasons and then we
also know that Brian Higgins apparently according to the defense stops responding to Brian Albert at some point
after all of this happens he kind of goes dark and I want to read something from one of the hearings from the
defense quote your honor there's only one way to interpret that Brian Albert was panicked that Brian Higgins had
flipped on him Brian Albert enlisted his Canton police officer brother to contact
Higgins to try and find out if that was was the case so I said early on that Canton PD got conflicted out well that's
cuz Brian Albert's brother Kevin was a Canton police officer apparently when the federal investigation's going on
Kevin Albert reaches out to Brian Higgins to be like hey why won't you talk to Brian Albert and they're saying
the only way you can interpret that is like we need to like get our story straight yeah and for me I think you
have to look at what the defense is saying they're saying hey this is all interconnected this is all really
problematic and when you have communications like this that really supports that especially when those
Communications could be interpreted as them not only discussing what happened but this Federal probe that's happening
simultaneously that is everyone's a little worked up about right it's not everyone's story seems to
have Chang including Karen everyone's story seems to have changed a little bit and is that time is that people getting
together and making their stories match is it is it misremembering is it is it hard to remember something that's not
the truth or what and it's the influence too of all of this sort of circus around it
in that small community right like people begin to get much more on edge and I know that in some of the source
material it's pointed out that the Alberts like moved away they got rid of their dog yeah so that
again if you can go either way with this so the the conspiracy people will say okay he replaced his floors like moved
out of his house and got rid of his dog shortly after this happened like all of the things and by the way Brian Albert's
house was never searched at the time that all this all went down they will say they said they've talked to Nate
like it's already was planned for them to move before this happened their dog got in a fight with another dog like
none of this has ties to the case but it looks bad and you would even point it out I'd move too because you go back to
the turtle boy and all of Karen supporters there was a point where they had a group of people protesters like of
a hundred people who were driving by all these key people's homes and like shouting with megaphones I would move
too yeah and if you're going to be a witness at a trial like you should as much as you can remove yourself from
things but I also again just to speak to that circus element to it I know in this
trial that's like playing out right now there's a buffer zone around the courthouse which of course as a
journalist and someone who's like no let me in there you know I'm not a demonstrator I'm always like no don't
keep the people out but at the same time with where this case is now it's clearly
necessary or or there's a reason right because of all this background and back history of what's been going on so that
really stuck out to me for sure as like a buffer zone around a public courthouse
for public proceedings but that just tells you the level that it's gotten to and I feel for John's family because
they have received so much hate which is to me disgusting because no like again they do believe that Karen is
responsible Karen's supporters have been very vocal that somehow they're bad people they this is their truth and
they're what they want it to play out in court and I think it will play out in court and again not that I necessarily
even agree with them but they have already been victimized think about John's mom who already lost her daughter
and now she lost her son you've got his niece and his nephew like these are real
people feeling real pain and this is I just can't imagine how this is adding to all of that there is so much to this
case like I could go on for another hour we didn't get into like there was you know another witness who says that they
were parked behind Karen in the driveway there is you know Julie Albert has two different stories of why or when she
learned about John's death the stories don't add up when you talk about a case we're supposed to talk about it in
Reasonable Doubt do I know if Karen did this do I know if anyone else did this I
don't know I do think that there is a lot of Reasonable Doubt with what's been put forward in the filings so far I do
think that the federal government wouldn't be looking at this unless there was something to look at they wouldn't
be setting this precedent a federal Nexus is what they have to be looking at which goes to much bigger things that
have to be observed right and that has to do with processes uh public entities people that hold certain positions how
are their offices managing things it's it's not the the federal government is not looking into whether the prosecution
is sharing Discovery with the defense they are looking at what happened on a federal level that violated a federal
law potentially by these characters or players on either side MH and that to me is of great interest and I think I kind
of want to know what the outcome of that's going to be either at the same time or maybe before even a trial
verdict which is going on right now so Karen's trial has started they've gone through jury selection at least at the
time of this recording which is why I wanted to make sure everyone was up to speed on on what had happened so far
what we're all walking into because I think we're going to find out so much more once the trial begins are you
officially on the conspiracy train are you are you it goes all the way to the top are you here I'm officially on this
could be its own limited series train which is my wheelous so send me to Boston I'm there I've heard that Netflix
has like already been following and planning a dock it's I mean there's there's stuff planned for this yeah I
this is one of those stories that like deserves to have a very hard look at it obviously some of the elements that are
in play I'm super familiar with and it's hard for me not to like make that leap because I've seen it myself I was just
going to say so this has a lot of parallels not necessarily the federal investigation you've kind of had to do
the overall investigation but the season you have coming out season six of counterclock do you want to talk about
that for like just a second because it's it's a wild intertwined case yeah so it's a case that involves different law
enforcement agencies conflict of interest of certain individuals um it involves you know a death that could be looked at
from a lot of different ways of is it just an accident is it something intentional so which is how it started I
mean much like this case you got in with this one man's death was it an accident
was it murder and then it grew and grew and grew all the way to the top all the way to the top so actually counterclock
season 6 the trailer comes out today the first day that we're launching this show
you can listen to the trailer on the SiriusXM app or wherever you get podcasts don't forget to follow this
show and counterclock and crime junkie add it to your library we're going to have a brand new episode the last Friday
of every single month but if you can't wait head to Crime junkie radio for your 247 True Crime fix you can follow me at
Ashley flowers on Instagram dilia at dad. D.W on Instagram and you can follow crime junkie at crime junkie podcast so
that's all for this first episode of crime junk e AF I will see you back here next month with a new
case crime AF

On this first episode, Ashley sits down with special guest Delia D’Ambra to discuss one of the wildest headlines she’s seen in a while – the death of John O’Keefe.

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Ashley Flowers is the Founder and Chief Executive Officer of audiochuck, an Indiana-based, award-winning, independent media company with 10+ chart-topping podcasts and over 2 billion listener downloads. Best known for her inaugural podcast Crime Junkie, named Apple Podcasts’ #1 show of 2022 and 2023, Flowers also hosts and executive produces The Deck and The Deck Investigates and Crime Junkie AF. In 2022 she authored her first novel, All Good People Here, which became an instant #1 New York Times Bestseller. She is committed to giving back and is the founder of nonprofit Season of Justice, which is dedicated to solving cold cases

___________________ 00:00 - 1:33 - Welcome to Crime Junkie AF 1:34 - 4:41 - Intro + Delia 4:41 - 5:02 - John O’Keefe vs. Karen Reed 5:02 - 7:07 - Headlines vs. Court Docs 7:08 - 12:00 - Overview of the case 12:01 - 12:58 - Autopsy results 12:59 - 14:00 - Karen’s BAC 14:01 - 15:15 - Tragic Accident? 15:16 - 16:14 - Tip Confusion 16:15 - 16:51 - The Web Begins 16:52 - 19:53 - 2nd Degree Charge 19:54 - 22:30 - Relationship Problems 22:31 - 24:52 - Karen’s Side of the Story 24:53 - 27:16 - Physical Evidence + Red Solo Cups 27:16 - 29:14 - Suspicious … 29:15 - 31:45 - The Hair. 31:46 - 34:43 - Injuries from a Car? 34:44 - 38:15 - Ring Camera 38:16 - 40:40 - “Hoss Long to die in cold” 40:41 - 43:26 - Health App Data 43:26 - 49:03 - FBI Involved 49:03 - 53:35 - Snowplow 53:36 - 57:00 - Mysterious Calls 57:00 - 1:00:45 Conspiracy Theory Deep Dive

Brief Summary

Ashley Flowers and Dilia DeAmbra discuss Karen Reed's murder charge in the case of her boyfriend, John O'Keefe, exploring evidence and conspiracy theories.

Key points

Launch of Crime Junkie AF. A new show exploring the latest true crime cases with special guests.
The Tragic Case of John O'Keefe. John O'Keefe, a Boston police officer, is found dead in the snow after a night out.
The Shift to Murder Charges. Karen Reed's charges escalate from manslaughter to second-degree murder amid new evidence.
John's Tragic Responsibility. After his sister's death, John took in his niece and nephew, showing his caring nature.
The Aruba Incident. A New Year's Eve incident raises questions about John's relationship with Karen.
The Hair Evidence. A singular hair found on Karen's car becomes a key piece of evidence in the case.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

What seems really wonky?

4:33WatchMay 3, 2024

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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