Fred Dinenage: Murder Casebook - Season 1, Episode 9 - The Krays by Fred Dinenage | Forensic Files

I seen the beds or the village that they shoot people it was definitely a sick boy that medication he used to take
would knock a horse over nothing like a field gang warfare now they gain anyway the live of things up I'm Fred teenage
the official biographer - the Kray twins I found writing the Kray twins story a very hard thing to do you see really the
twins and I had absolutely nothing in common I would sit for hours and listen to their stories of the often brutal
crimes they've committed there I was someone who hadn't got a criminal record at all they could never ever say sorry
they could never express regret for the things they've done or even for the families of the people who've been
killed or hurt now 25 years later I'm revisiting the Kray story and meeting their associates looking again at the
most notorious gangsters in British history to see just how right I got it [Music]
the book I wrote with the Kray twins reg and Ron our story was published in 1988
it was a success of the time and since then I've continued with my life as a TV presenter and journalist but nonetheless
their story has always held a fascination for me I first became involved with the Kray twins in the
mid-1980s I was introducing coast to coast the ITV regional news program for the South of England we featured a
father who wanted to thank Addenbrooke's Hospital thus saving his daughter's life
with a transplant a few days later I received a letter from one Reggie Kray saying he'd seen the film he'd been very
moved by it he'd like to help the father raise some money and he thought a good way of doing this would be to get
prisoners and Parkers to a good artist to do paintings which could then be auctioned off
I put Reggie Kray in touch with the father and sure enough some paintings arrived we ran another feature on the
paintings themselves and a few days later another letter from Parkhurst prison from Reggie Kray Singh saw the
item loved it very much would you like to come to Parkhurst and meet me it was an invitation as a journalist I couldn't
refuse I did go and see him we got on fine he said come back and see me again I did
and on that second occasion he said Ronnie and I are looking for someone to write our life story would you like to
do it and I found myself saying well yeah I'd like to think about it I'm retracing their extraordinary lives
again from their childhood to their heyday to their demise and meeting key people for the very first time
it all began when the twins were born on October the 24th 1933 Reggie was born first and then wrong 10 minutes later
it's the Kray twins roots here in the East End of London that's the key to their whole story
Frankie phrasing when they were just kids he watched them grow from young tearaways into hardened gangsters
[Music] I'm looking forward to meeting Frankie because the twins spoke such a lot about
him and Reggie said to me once that Frankie phrase it was the only person they were actually ever frightened of
because he was mad [Music] Frankie Fraser it's lovely to see you after all these years and what a
fantastic setting to be in this Repton boxing club I love it it's terrific the atmosphere is still as they've always
been why do they call you mad Frankie Fraser well after being 35 about three times I
can't expect to be called [ __ ] same Frankie cannot Reggie and Ronnie you knew them when
they were kids yes I did yet well I used to when I was 19 I've just come out a chance of prison
and I used to drink with their father this during a war and some-odd when the pups used to shout a free o'clock in the
afternoon we'd normally go to a club or some answers go over their data and have
a meal with a were 9 years of age they used to call me uncle Frank yes like we had a good laugh about here yeah what
were they like when they were kids they were all right yeah very respectful yes mum and dad both warm up well that way
yeah the twins did most of their growing up on Vallance Road they live with their
mum dad and older brother Charlie fighting was a passion for the boys they loved to box and as they reached their
teams they were winning championships and what about the twins dad what can you tell us about him well he was a good
man I liked him when I was growing up he was on the run at the time that he was I'll be ever owned and he did get a
little bit shifty then as he was getting out here so he wasn't really a very good
influence on them their mum was their best one room they worshipped her can you describe her to me
well she typical lovely momma's momma should be yeah she worshipped on my mother was simply a wonderful woman
no man ever had a finer mother we often had no money and very little food but she always made sure that Reggie and
Charlie and I had something to eat and something are decent to where she never gave in to despair or frustration even
when times were bleak and the future seemed too old nothing I would kill any man who spoke ill of my mother the
teenage twins were developing promising boxing careers reg was the London schools champion and even turned
professional but their chance to forge a career in boxing was cut short when they
got into one fight too many and ended up in the Old Bailey at just 16 from then on the boxing promoters wouldn't touch
them Reggie Kray had asked me to write the twins life story but first I had to meet his twin brother wrong who was at
Broadmoor Hospital for the criminally insane and crow thorn in bark ship and I'll always remember as I was walking
towards that very forbidding main entrance into the hospital a white limousine pulled up alongside me with
blackened windows one of the back windows dropped down a puff of smoke came out and I heard a voice saying Fred
Dynegy and I said yes and he said I'm so incensed and so I won't mention his name
but he said I run a lot of London's underworld I'm a close friend of Ronnie Kray if you write this book you're gonna
look after him aren't you and I said of course it'll be very honest he said that's okay
window whence up the car drove off I went inside met Ronnie Kray we had our meeting we chatted for an hour or so got
on OK at the end of it Ronnie Kray looked at me and said I agree with reg you can write our story during that
first meeting with Ronnie it was hard to imagine him as an eager young man in Broadmoor he was quiet but underneath
there was something unnerving whenever I met the Kray twins it was obvious they still had enormous power
even though they were inside whatever they wanted they generally got and someone who helped them in that
direction a great friend of the Kray twins indeed a man they had tremendous respect for he's a guy called Freddie
Foreman a real godfather of British crime never actually a member of the Kray firm but certainly what you might
call an enforcer Freddie forward in Polly cheese here this Italian cafe in the East End of London and what's come
through to me all of this is that you are just about the most respected figure still in the East End how did you come
to to meet Reggie and Ronnie well I met them through Charlie their brother Charlie who was older than him and then
the twins were on a young but they was there something about them that I was destined for them it's been a notorious
you know if there was a bit unruly to say the least I remember the first time I went to
their home they were in the backyard punching the daylights out of each other you know and the old man and Charlie had
to go out and stop them but he used to say to me Charlie have a word with him you know the twins and save him talked
some sense into him but of course there was too young and fiery they they couldn't listen to what you had to say
it going money and out the other they still do what they wanted to do Ronnie and Reggie were called up for National
Service when they were 18 the twins fought conscription and spent two years running from the Army at times
they got caught and legend has it they found themselves locked up in the Tower of London writing the Kray twins story
wasn't particularly easy because of the limited access I could get to them I can
only see them once a month and then for just a couple of hours so it took several years to actually write it and
an added complication was the fact that Reggie Lou prison a few times and every time we had to meet in a huge
visiting Hall which didn't make it any easier at Broadmoor the problem with Ronnie wasn't quite so bad they gave us
a private room to talk in so that showed the amount of trust there was with the authorities there this extraordinary
footage has never been seen before on television it shows me talking to Ronnie Kray in the corridors of Broadmoor
Ronnie was legendary for always being immaculately dressed as you can see here and they called him the colonel because
of the way he marched everywhere but the Kray twins could actually reach you find
you almost anywhere no matter where you were even though they were both inside I'll also remember one Sunday morning I
was having a bit of emergency dental treatments at a hospital in Portsmouth I just sat back in the dentist chair he
was just about to stick the needle in my gum when I heard a phone ring outside the receptionist knocked on the door
stuck her head round the door and said there's a phone call for mr. Danish the dentist was horrified he said what
he said who is it she said it's someone called Reggie Kray God said the dentist you better answer
it I'm Fred Danish official biographer of the Kray twins they told me their story over a number of years from their
prison cells and now I'm revisiting that story with help from their associates to
see how right I got it writing a book about the Kray twins wasn't easy because it was difficult to
find out the truth to separate fact from fiction virtually everybody I've met has
had good things to say about them but I've got a feeling that Lenny Hamilton and Billy Frost might have a somewhat
different account of things when are you going in and Nick they started cutting down a peg
Oh Jetta quite big um he even like [ __ ] pop through his guts this pug was run by the crazed mob violet firm
member Billy and jewel thief Lenny knew it well how did you both meet the Kray twins
well I mean when I was about 18 I was on the run from the Army I forgot to dance
or called the Royal over-talking they used to bedi like to get in place at the time and that's well first met Ronald
rich and I first met my not been out the army about six weeks and I was walking down but get Bo weed off an island and I
see this big fella gonna fight with these two young fellows so I went over and helped them they got
away it was a copper he arrested me he said do you know who I was I said no that I sure did equate which he said I
was arresting him they've got a grant from the Army Renee Solomon was disabled I was playing
smoother and then this fella tapped me on the shoulder and it hurt me and he said don't men media said no oh yeah
he said Maggie clay he said you helped us well the old girl was oldest so yeah one went yeah now Lonnie and I looked I
couldn't tell him apart good yeah you can tell him about the 21 year old twins first business venture
was a billiard hall but trouble followed soon ron was put away for GBH after shooting and wounding a man so reg
opened up their first nightclub the Double R as a tribute to his imprisoned twin Billy Frost worked for the craze
and was a member of what became known as the firm what was your role in the firm
but it's their drive and do different things like you know he was one the most trusted on the firm Billy was it myself
I think the room in the sixties you never even mentioned the clothes night still only in their mid-20s and they
were running clubs and protection rackets with side lines in fraud armed robbery and arson were they greatly
feared the time oh they were yeah over period of time their reputation spread but when it first started people went to
them because if they had a troublesome business a nightclub or public as was a bit rough they would welcome the twins
into them the business and put them on a wage because there will have no more trouble
you know it was a sort of protection business debt was beneficial to both sides high-profile celebrities were
attracted to the danger of being associated with the crazed film stars music idols and politicians were queuing
up to be friends with the glamorous gangsters rich in money were always surrounded by celebrities who were show
business people singers etc world what do you remember about that well their reputations but even it to America
because when I when all the stars came over and appeared at abigaile or of different shows in the West End they
always saw out the twins for some reason either I don't know why but it wasn't as
though they were supplying him with drugs or anything you know to get any joke they never they wouldn't touch
anything like cocaine or puffs I never used anything about which celebrities Jericho well bloody hell they never
stopped I mean I Barbara when suppose that was the first one of course okay she became a great friend and she helped
my son Jamie Oh in his career when he started at Acton but in the black going back further to the 60s Jayne Mansfield
was one with her husband but then there was a Tony Bennett and Judy Garland Sophie Tucker believe
Daniels it was on that night with Ron and me done up like dogs dinners in our bowties and dinner jackets and
surrounded by the rich and famous that I realized we were well on the way to making it to the very top to the very
top I felt so powerful that night I felt nothing was gonna stop us as the twins power base grew their personal lives
moved on reg had fallen for Frances Shea whom he married in April 1965 and it was
no secret that his brother Ron was gay what were your feelings about Ronnie Kray I lightly I really liked him he was
he was really to me a nice fella know I've seen the bad side of him of sayings that babe oh and shoot people but I
still liked him and Reggie was the same motor drive Reggie bear I know a lot of time bridge was in like conflict within
himself would be noble mania day I think he was discovering what he wanted to be
he had a beautiful web France there's usually lovely girl know what happened there he never ever had anything
sexually that though we don't go Richie even the dead it's over you there Oh Charlie and she died she killed herself
when she took out those over there there were a damper oh yeah are you young I learned it's all supposition when you're
saying I know it is lame I think now it's Anna's house I was building sound like love each other or tomato Laura you
should drive in the back Frances committed suicide overdosing on barbiturates only two years after she
married reg rumors still persist about her death and some people don't think it was even suicide
it was another extraordinary chapter in the life of the twins for me their personal and criminal lives were
fascinating to write however everyone it seemed wanted a piece of their story we
discovered early on that a famous rock star had also got the rights to the Cray book so Ronnie said that's not a problem
give him a ring and tell him we want you to write our story so I rang him up and
his attitude was over my dead body you're not writing it I've got the rights so I told Ronnie who said leave it with
me I'll sort it out and a few days later the aforementioned rock star rang me up
and said actually I've changed my mind you can write the book if you want to interesting that in there could you see
that they were a little bit different that they were going to be yes yes oh yeah you could tell they were going to
go to the top yeah definitely ronnie was the lively one rate he was a bit more laid-back can you paint a picture of the
East End for me in the in the fifties and sixties well it was something about it that I saw and bustle and the people
of life were all with one another then there's a paradox about East End gangsters that's always puzzled me on
the one hand they were boys who love their mum and went to church but on the other they were vicious gangsters who
destroy families I want to talk to a man who knew both twins very well and who indeed shared a
landing at Parkhurst prison with Reggie Kray for a number of years that man and he's quite a remarkable man is called
Bobby Cummins [Music] Bobby were in this rather unique isn't Matthews Church here in the East End
it's a special place isn't it here's a special place because it's part of community it was where the community met
and you know though there were villains and all that we have respect for the church I mean you knew Reggie Kray as
well as anybody better than most tell me about Reggie well Reggie cry there was there was two sides of Reggie
there was the Reggie that in business you will want to miss with you know you're talking about one of the most
serious bits of work but it's also that compassionate so I'd like I've learnt my
rules offer people like that like the Freddy four minutes and you show respect love mum love your family if you don't
respect your family you don't respect no one kids were safe in our environment and they would leave people were safe in
their environment villains were taken over I mean you come over to across the Manor your men are wish your territory
you've come across then you started taking liberties didn't we so yeah the twins were violent lads Willy we were
all right a prick you know and I've got guns up to it you know you live in that world we live in other people's
nightmares that's their reality and when you go out with a gun or you go to a toll when people come looking for you
they come looking for you so when there's an old rule that we used to work better to be caught with one when you
don't need it then cook without one when you don't because if they jump out the motor on you they're not coming to say
hello they're coming at you that touch you to pieces or shoot you or or kill you you subscribe to that world you live
by those rules for it and you're going D knew it the twins grew up surrounded by East End
gang warfare it was a way of life for them Frankie Fraser saw the twins rise to power did reg and Ron ever ask you to
join them yes of course they did but I've already they're not in prison I'll say well I'll think about it
but then I went with the Richardson's the Kray twins weren't the only duo ruling London's underworld
a rival gang the Richardson brothers Charlie and Eddie were based south of the river
the Krays told me they had a reputation so fierce it earned them respect from the hardest of criminals they became
famous for their brutal torture techniques the Richardson's what were they like very intelligent miles in
front of Reggie and Ronnie were like we're intelligence than that about Brady and Ronnie at the other part I was
tucked very genuine the East End and South London what was the difference what was the what was the problem
between them there was no problem really there's always a bit of rivalry there any football teams same thing innit
nothing nothing that couldn't be solved there's nothing like a bit of gang warfare now and again anyways alive and
things up I always got the feeling in fact Reggie said they were quite wary of you they would never ever take a Liberty
with mad Frankie Fraser well that was their way of looking at it that was good yeah I liked the vice versa were you
frightened or wary of Reggie and Nam no course not I'm frightened of nothing and
no one never had been and never will be it's as simple as that [Music] I'm Fred damage the official biographer
to the Kray twins the Kray twins only regret relief was the mistake they made in their eyes that they shouldn't have
committed the crimes themselves they should have got other people to do it for them there were many times when I
thought should I really be writing this book in the first place but then I thought I'm a journalist this is part of
our criminal history it should be told and now I'm going back to that story to make sure I got it right talking to
crazed associates about the highs and terrible lows of the infamous gangsters that Toth wins a preferred Ronny though
he was it was definitely a sick boy it was sick the medication he used to take would knock a horse over Lenny Hamilton
was an East End villain and known associate of the craze he got on the wrong side of the twins after an
altercation with a member of the firm Eve every calls the night when Ron's mental instability caused him real harm
an indication that Ronnie was starting to lose control when I was up I knew something was dodgy because that Jesus
staying that side it was being stand-in there and I said all right there Lenny's
out there well when I got hurt it was a little kitchen and he was standing facing me
his back was so the gas stove then and he so sick they had an old armchair with you so I'll sit there so he wakes and I
think when you know you do strike one didn't you do a burger you'll be good you couldn't know what you're saying no
suddenly wait oh you can go now so he went get oh really so - he's mingi old of me
and as he turned I see these focuses on a guess they were like cold Steel's with
the sharpen Allah Akbar called and poked that's like you know came out I mean I black hole e8 it saw him don't OD a law
firm me the suit off me even been and got another one oh really crossed there don't only I
players offer me well I sell nearly blind in that way and almost definite here because then he went and got an a
no no would they be steak with remembers and he smashed me near and dumb huge and
all the blood coming out like you know and then he went back got another poker it's a nice way he said now gonna burn
your [ __ ] eyes out and he's telling at me with a poker and someone shared out no God not that
and he just stopped no he said I couldn't go now how did you feel about Rani cry after
that I didn't I I never never like didn't like him at before people would show be part of him I wasn't old I admit
it you know because you never knew what no you can do next we were wicked little bastards really
wicked little bastards always getting into scraps with other kids and sometimes with each other
right from early on when we were just nippers we had a gang in our street we used to have brick battles with kids
from other streets we loved to fight Ron and I love to fight maybe it was because we came from a
family of Fighters maybe because we were brought up in an area of fighting men where did it go wrong do you think for
the graduates well they wasn't very brainy and in many ways and they did get lured please and
funny people get laid in different situations that they couldn't handle it was too much for him
what did for Ronny of course in the end was the shooting of George Cornell yes what sort of bloke was Cornell well
that's the tragedy he grew up with him George Cornell but he fell in love with a girl from South London for real in the
castle very nice girl top shoplifter fell in love with her Mary Dora moved over to a radium money corn ADA where
they fought a deserted of tension between George Cornell and the crazed GRU on the 9th of March 1966 Ron shot and
killed him in the blind beggar pom Ron told me in that moment he'd never felt so alive and George Cornell well I just
don't know what come over honey that's why I say were those were on those drugs and when he got these manic urges he
would go out and do something really dangerous he was a dangerous person and nobody knew where he was going to do it
he just went and did it I mean he just walked in there in front of witnesses and loads of people and shot the man in
the head you know and it's local shock because he's Brian as obey couldn't see into drive or anything I don't know it
was just a fluke really the following year Reggie killed two he stabbed associate Jack McVitie in the
head chest and stomach Reggio was said to me that Jack the Hat got what he deserved at that fateful party on
evering Road calling him no better than a sewer rat Freddie Foreman was found guilty of being an accessory to the
murder what equates messed him in the face with a glass and told him them to go to dinner and he went out of the room
and he turn and came back in again and he could have walked out of the house he could have gone out and they set there
and they were screaming at each other and arguing and it went on for quite considerable time and there was
witnesses there two young guys who had crew pairs who made statements to this effect and a lot of other when this is
my statement but they were never produced at the trial those statements which they should have been and that
would prove that it wasn't premeditated to kill him that night there it was got out of hand
and that's when the knife was produced by one of that firm pulled it out of the kitchen and give it to one of the twins
which was a stupid thing to do and that's how he got killed but it wasn't intentional that night Charlie
was the one who always came to me and said can you help the twins out there in troubled I've done something stupid I've
done something silly when Jack I was in my bed at 3 o'clock in the morning I was
asleep and all this thing that was going on and they wanted me to help him out clear out the scene afterwards were you
involved in any of the killings or anything like that well I avoided that then one my bet
things I don't know their mind a few hours but not that's all the thing you know Reggie always told me that only he
and Ronnie knew the truth about how Jack the hats body was disposed of member of
the firm Billy has his own theory what happened to the body burn Paul died the pole you know he had a breakage yard
that he used to smoke a lot badly see me but I used to dump him in a big deep phrase he had a big chest freezer it
frees them up there for about a week then you know them so as they cut the meat now this may be a dull wild own
source he used to saw him up pull him in to smell whatever coming and there oh that's all anybody's went though he's my
mate Jack it's a good fella I got some high-class from here partner yeah I mean why did reg kill Matt
Vettius a well by then Jack the Hat that got out of hand Eve was fresh and saying nasty things
about them everything like that so that therefore he had to go there's no doubt about it
the shame was a one-time happiness nice car it was the Jack McVitie and George Cornell murders that gave Scotland Yard
enough evidence to arrest the twins at 6:00 a.m. on the 9th of May 1968 the police smashed their way into Ron's flat
and arrested them both the brothers gave up without a struggle did you go to the police with with
evidence of oh no he didn't do it like then when I was in prison and they got a letter smuggled into me if the police
come to see me don't talk to him I wasn't gonna shoot my two kids Lenny decided the safer course was to
put the Krays away he went into the witness stand and testified against them in their 39 day murder trial the old
baby was full every day and tickets in the public gallery was selling for five pounds each Ronnie told me he was
betrayed in court by nearly every math in the firm Lenny what about the trial itself how much of an ordeal for you was
the trial of the crater oh well the judge looked at many books and he says to me you feel all right I said not
really and they got me a chair to sit down and was running clay tips staring at me pulling faces you know who's only
just down there we're always here so he got me a chair when I sit on a chair being little I couldn't even see I would
just stop so that's why did Judge Danny you know if they didn't have sent that letter in older spoke to the old bill
you don't do them things you know that I would have faith myself if I was a jewel
thief or not blown saves to me you know but you don't grow us up people it was at the Old Bailey that a young
Bobby Cummings got to know the twins it was funny because we're not got dumped and sawn off that's when I met Reggie
and Ronnie and because those that'd be all about it was the old old Balian em days and they was walking a longer
landing because they was on trial when I was a young kid I knew they was but I didn't know him at that time and it was
Ronnie he went we were you doing here I said no I'm here for coming a sort of armed robbery you win you cheeky little
so-and-so he say fair plight you he said I'll probably see a lot of you in here I'll see you probably will on the 4th of
March 1969 the crazed were found guilty of murder and sentenced to life the judge said they should serve no less
than 30 years Freddie Foreman was sentenced to 10 years inside for his part in the Jack McVitie murder a tricky
question Fred but I'll put it to you because you don't have to answer it were there other murders do you think I
mean do you think the mad axe man was murdered by them or via them or others do you think well he's saying I don't
really want to discuss about the matter because I stood trial for the murder but
you were acquitted I was acquitted yeah and why decided but it also harbors the charge with another murder 12 years
after it supposed to have happened and I was a quitter there also so you know Adam I don't have really discussed or
talked about things like that there's always people who if Emily's who submits over something with somebody's husband
or somebody's son isn't it you know the Krays were finally banged up where the police wanted them to be even though
they'd tried and failed to convict the twins of other murders the job was done justice for George Cornell and Jack
McVitie had been served I'm Fred dodge the official biographer of the Kray twins
writing the book was a big responsibility and I spent four years visiting Reggie and Ronnie in prison
listening to their stories it wasn't always easy like the reaction I first got in Parkhurst
when you first come in everyone's iffy because we they're journalists before I mean I've had it myself where they want
to do your life story on writing a book and then I write it the way they want to
write they done right the real right and that made us very iffy about play we wanted to write both journalists all
that sort of thing you did it the right way and so don't give them a bit more confidence and you was regular you know
you weren't just going out getting a little bit of him doing your research and then pad in that book he was
actually writing how it should have been done but you were well respected you know for what you did and you're still
really respected obvious pictures done so the Kray twins book was due for publication and certain newspapers
showed a lot of interest in serialization particularly The Sunday Times The Sunday Mirror and the news of
the world I urge the Kray twins to go for the Sunday Times because of the credibility that it would have given
them which is what they were really seeking after all but of course the twins being the twins went for the most
money and went for the news of the world the Sunday Mirror had been very supportive up until then were very very
cross and they took a somewhat different tack all of a sudden the headline said fury over new craze hole they were angry
that the craze were apparently going to receive some remuneration for writing their life story and they suggested that
I as the author should be taken off the television I was outraged at the sheer hypocrisy of the whole thing that then
it all died down and time is after all a great healer for Reggie and Ronnie time
didn't heal it just went on and on in prison Reggie said to me that life in Parkhurst was a constant battle for
sanity and survival artists one of the most respectful places of everything in my life for good
manners because we was all told up every one of us in there told that inside prison oh yeah yeah with what well we
nicked a garden shear reg head off I had off so go ahead a blown about that long
and we would read vane and sail under there then we used to have grey overcoat in EM days the poachers Kousaka when we
carried a blade in it when you're only a CEO job because if it kicked off the so
it was very respectful place because we'd all say good morning to each other no one jumped at you because everyone's
potential killer in there you know calculus mr. Burton's outfit race you know you can be sitting there watching
telly afraid and someone coming with a boiling jug of milk we sure bring a tip we have you ready burn your face off
that's the reality of prison it was the same reality that crazed biggest rivals the Richardson brothers were living
after the law caught up with them too at one point in Parkhurst it turned out that Charlie Richardson and Reggie Kray
were about to do time together now there was a war between Reggie Kray and Charlie Richardson they were both banged
up in Parkhurst the same time potentially explosive situation you in fact brokered the police did you know
what the thing was always friends with Charlie and Reggie it'd been a long war going on between both families you know
and and you know people weren't very every because you you got a look at if it goes off in there what side are you
gonna take because you couldn't be true it's over you know you take one side or the other they've got to a stage where
people were going like you know the buns gotta be made you can't walk about wondering if he's going to go big-time
and so they had to get someone we both from knew and trusted the world was put like you gone sit with them and saw air
there was over going to have to live together or die for the Krays dying in prison was a real possibility and prison
life without their twin was hard they saw each other as often as the authorities would allow
whenever we meet we spend the day talking we don't talk about the past we talk about the future one live always
believed will be released one day we have to believe it it's all there is we talked about their houses were living
together in the country and about the places we want to see before we get too old for years now we've talked about
kind of India and China two of the most beautiful and interesting countries in the world but
am i right in a sense Reggie was always a marked man inside Parkhurst he'd always got a
sort of price on his head in as much as the young guns in there if they could have marked him in some way they get
themselves a reputation well you've got you've got a look at it the hierarchy in
prison you know you're talking about people like Reggie Kray Charlie Richardson if you cut one at him on the
guy who cut Reggie Kray now you're a celebrity white you're going up the ladder but if we led that to happen
then the next target would have been Charlie then it would have gone all around and one of us even might be my
turn next time around and the thing was we were prepared to kill him if necessary and we were we weren't worried
about that it would come down to that better living Golden Week I would send a mr. Jack you were one of the house then
you were in all of us over time to come and get you you're not getting away the twins mum violet visited them twice a
week until she died in 1982 Ronnie served most of his sentence in the psychiatric hospital Broadmoor Reggie
was a category a prisoner for much of his time in maximum-security prisons across the country do you think the law
was a bit harsh on Reggie and Ronnie Kray I think they wasn't the law was very unfair to him very unfair all to
you nice people like yourself untouchable in their world and quite rightly women and children and touchable
even when their contemporaries had been released the twins were refused parole they
weren't given the opportunity to leave their gangster days behind them like Bobby Cummings now your own career
has been quite remarkable because you were a baton hmm and you were a violent man
you were a villain yeah but by god you've turned things around tell us what you're up to now it was Charlie
Richardson got me into education he went me Bobby and Bridget as well it's be fair
Regt Bobby you know he's gonna want to bang up here for the rest of your life or dead or you can go the right way so
your charity is called unlock yep it's unlocked National Association of reformed offenders and these kids matter
to me they're my kids the markets dying on the street and I want more kids for the future and and laying on the bed
that me bridging and running Charlie laid on the bed the 200 people slept on before us cut their esteem urinating
called knows what else they've done in it if you want people to change what you've got give them is the opportunity
to change the craze never had the opportunity I wonder what would have happened if the craze had been given the
chance to go straight when I was writing the book both twins told me they'd lead
an honest life if released Ronnie never left Broadmoor and Reggie was only released on compassionate grounds a few
weeks before he died I was with him the meds even when he died I'll set up next to him in the bed when I've
released him and Joey Powell and Johnny Nash we went down to see him at this hotel and I sat on the bed with him
while I need to when he took his last breath you know it's weird that we went there that day it seemed that he was
waiting to see us before he passed away and it's weird the whole family's died in prison said really before Reggie died
was he able to speak to you at all yeah yeah always baisemeaux yeah we left him and he said
don't go he said you're coming back we said we're going to the bar cause of the doctor arrived to give him an injection
and what would come went back down again he was completely unconscious then he died there as I sat on the side of the
bed with him hmm how did you feel I was started finish of us never really sad the craze told me how loyal Freddie had
been throughout their lives so it seemed fitting then that Freddie should be with
him in Reggie's last moments reg died from cancer at the age of 66 Ronnie suffered a heart attack and died
at 61 their older brother Charlie died aged 73 so all three craze ended their lives if you like here but you didn't
come to any of those services no I didn't come to the service it's out of respect and you know people would say Oh
y'all go to a funeral it turned into a circus and I didn't like that I keep them in my heart yeah I've got more
memories when when we used to laugh have a cup of tea together and then discuss villainy together and I'm not condoning
what they did you know but in that life we all did it because that was our life so what do the people I met think about
the extraordinary crazed story I'll never forget one thing Ronnie said never make excuses for what
I've done they didn't regret anything he did it his way and Reggie was the same it's
pretty was the same they lived a life the way they meant to live it and ended by their rules and our code of ethics
and they never sold out it's surprising now many followers they've got all over the country you know so how can they
still do that how can they still have that kind of charisma and like all these years you know that Gators like I'm
doing Easton you know the gangsters are in well so on the legacy is it that it lead for young
generations that are coming through to say well look what happened to them you want to follow in their footsteps the
whole the three brothers all died in prison sad sad story and it doesn't advertise
good committing crime doesn't it so what have I learned then from this journey back into the Krays legacy quite a lot
actually I've learned a number of things I didn't know about Reggie and Ronnie Kray I've certainly learned a lot about
the people who surrounded them and most surprising of all I think in many ways is I've actually learned I think that
Jack McVitie and George Cornell they're two victims especially Cornell were actually nicer
men than Reggie and Ronnie ever portrayed to me but the biggest lesson of all I suppose is the one that I
already knew and that is except in exceptional circumstances crime really doesn't pay certainly for Reggie and
Ronnie Kray [Music] where others London woke up on that sunny May morning in 1968 and too sleepy
gangsters were driven at record speed to Scotland Yard we knew only one thing the
party was over but it had been great while it lasted [Music] you [Music]

Brief Summary

Fred Danish revisits the Kray twins' story, sharing insights from associates and reflecting on their notorious legacy in British crime.

Key points

The Kray Twins' Story. Fred recounts the challenges of writing about the infamous Kray twins.
Meeting Reggie Kray. Fred describes his first meeting with Reggie Kray in prison.
The Rise of the Twins. The Kray twins' rise to power in London's underworld is explored.
The Krays' Regrets. The Kray twins regretted committing their own crimes, wishing they had hired others instead.
The Turning Point. Ronnie Kray's violent act against George Cornell marked a significant moment in his life.
The Trial of the Krays. The Kray twins were found guilty of murder and sentenced to life in prison.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

They could never express regret for the things they've done.

0:40WatchOct 4, 2019

Tension

50/ 100Some tension

More from True Crime Files

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.