Episode 774: Tillie Klimek: Mrs. Bluebeard of Chicago | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. This is Morbid. >> Hi everybody. Here we are. How's it
hanging? >> It's hump day everybody. >> Hump day. I remember that was like an office
culture thing. >> There was There was like a commercial. >> Yeah, that had a camel I think. It was a
man who turned into a camel I believe. Oh, was? Maybe my brain made that up. >> the dark history of that. I thought it
was just a camel. >> the man became a camel cuz he kept saying hump day. No? I I
Deb is Deb Deb is shaking her head too. I don't know. I don't know about that. I'm going to Google that. I'm going to
look at that. I think it was just him being like Mike Mike Mike Mike Mike. Wow. >> Yeah, I think he just became
[ __ ] I thought I both were like, what? There's dark history behind this commercial. I I didn't think it was dark
history. I just thought it was like >> becoming a camel. >> That's a bit. That's That's dark.
>> bit. It's dark, man. I don't want to be a camel. >> bit. >> You know. Exactly.
>> I thought I shouldn't know. You thought I guess. I don't know. There's There's a
lot that I thought that's not real. I think >> There's a lot that I thought. >> the thought that I thunk that I think
and I thunk. All right. So now that we figured that out everybody Yeah. I guess. He He began the commercial as a
camel. He began and ended as a camel. >> Yeah. Uh we can get into what I do know.
Oh man. >> Which is this case. >> Which is this case. >> I do know about this case.
>> Also buy tickets to the Radio City Music Hall. Uh show. >> Oh honey, do that. Honey, just got to
remind you, you know. Debby's teaching us to tap. It's one night only. >> You're not going to want to miss that.
>> You're not going to want to miss that. I'm telling you. >> tap tap tap. It's one night only, babes.
>> Got merch. One night only. >> Exclusive to the event. >> Do it. I thought you were going to say
one night only again. >> One One night you were just everything I said. Even all the way through the case
you're like One night only. only. Oh my god. Oh my god. >> But yeah, I had to get that in. And now
we can get to our case. We're going to Everybody who gives the minute marker for when we shut the [ __ ] up and start
talking about the case. This one was an easy one. This one was quick. It's right
now. This one's quick. So we're talking about Tilly Klimek today. She is referred to as Mrs. Bluebeard of
Chicago. >> Oh, excuse me. >> You do remember when we covered Mr. Bluebeard, correct? Yeah, himself. Yeah,
he was killing all his brides. He sure was. >> can guess what Tilly was doing. She was
killing all her men. Maybe. I feel. Well, here's the thing. We don't actually know much about Tilly Klimek's
early life before she started killing all her men. Before she started the murdering. But yeah, the with the
murdering that made her famous. But before all that, she was born By the way, there's a lot of Polish
pronunciations in this. I'm literally married to a Polish man who has a Polish last name, so I'm going to do my best.
And I did look all these up, but I'm not sure if I'm going to slay. I have complete faith in you. That's so nice.
She says with a devilish grin. I have complete lol. I really do. I meant that. Thank you. Okay. That was really nice.
Thank you. I appreciate it. She was born Otilia Gębik. Ooh. I like it. She just I wish you could have seen the the
ooh face. She did like ooh. I hope I did it. She was born in Poland in 1876, some
time ago. And she immigrated to the US with her parents, uh, Michael and Michalina Gębik. Ooh.
When she was about 4 years old. So she was She ended up being raised in an area of Chicago known as Little Poland, where
obviously a lot of other Polish immigrants were living. And because of that, she really didn't have to learn
English for a long time. So, when she did eventually learn English, it wasn't like obviously it's not her first
language, so it wasn't like super strong. Uh just keep that in mind for later. Imagine knowing several languages like
well enough to have a conversation. >> I wish that I was better at languages than I am because I'd like to be like
genuinely fluent in another language. >> in general. I said, "Can I talk to you?
Can I just let something off my chest? I wish I was a better than I am." I was like, "Woah." I'm
looking at the woman in the mirror. I'm asking her to change her ways. I love it. And learn another language.
And learn another become bilingual. That's what we want. So, in 1890, when she was just 14 years old, Tilly married
17-year-old Joseph Mitchevic. Yeah. >> Another Polish immigrant who had come to the US right around the same time as her
family. Five years later, Tilly gave birth to a son that they named Joseph Jr., and her husband found work with the
Illinois Central Railroad. Her first marriage is kind of mysterious. It's not as publicized as
the ones that came next. And for whatever reason, it also lasted considerably longer than her following
marriages. But, the relationship did come to an end with Joseph's unexpected death in
January of 1914. Here it is. The coroner said, "Heart trouble." Oh. But, his death allowed Tilly to cash
in on a $1,000 life insurance policy. Look at that. >> Once she did that, she wasted no time
finding a new husband. Mhm. Now, at the time, his death didn't seem super suspicious. Chicago was a very
fast-paced environment, and he was just just kind of a day-to-day guy, so his death really didn't make it onto that
many people's radar. He also worked in a dangerous and stressful industry, so it
wasn't that crazy that he died from heart trouble. Okay. And at that time, it wouldn't have been that unusual for
Tilly to move on so quickly. She didn't have a job. She was a widow now with a child to care for. So, grief was a
luxury that she could not afford for very long. >> Yeah, that is the That's the truth of
the time. >> It is. Now, in February of 1914, just 1 month after Joseph's death, Tilly married
Joseph Ruskowski. Uh but that marriage proved to be very short-lived. By May, he was dead. Oh.
Yeah. January, February, March, April, 3 months. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Dead. And Tilly inherited his $1,200 in
savings and $722 from an insurance policy. Altogether today, that would be like $63,000.
>> Damn. Good chunk of change. Now, just like she had with her first husband's death, she did not waste much time on
grieving. And within a few months, she had started up a new relationship uh using some of her latest inheritance to
fund a vacation to Milwaukee. Oh. >> Such a luxurious place. >> Okay. Is that Cream City?
So, is that what it is? Holy [ __ ] >> City. Wow. Yeah, sports. You know I saw we That actually [ __ ]
me up the first time I saw that on their basketball court. >> me up. >> don't think it's always there. I I think
it was a special thing. >> special. I guess. >> It was a special moment for Cream City.
She went to Cream City with her new boyfriend, and that's not a euphemism. >> Holy [ __ ]
So, it's pretty clear that her intention was to quickly win a marriage proposal from this man.
>> Yeah. >> But unfortunately, >> You bring him there. >> Yeah, bring your man to Cream City.
You're looking for a ring. >> Secure that marriage proposal, baby girl. Now, unfortunately, though, when she
raised the subject of marriage, he laughed at her proposal of marriage, which is not nice.
>> Very rude. And she was enraged. >> I would be. >> She said, "Take me seriously. By the
way, contrary to popular belief, my previous two husbands didn't die of natural causes. I [ __ ] poisoned them.
So, don't mess with me. Whoa. Like, I don't think that's going to help your case.
>> Getting a man to marry you? Has that worked with anyone getting a marriage proposal?
>> Let us know. Yeah, write in. >> We won't submit you to the authorities. No, not at all. So, she immediately
realized that she had made a serious mistake in confessing to murder. Yeah. Not only was he now highly unlikely to
marry her, but he was also likely to dial 911 and report an emergency. >> Yeah, about that. Yeah, so hoping to
prevent the inevitable, Tilly threatened to report him to the authorities for violating the Mann Act, which was a 1910
US law that criminalized the transportation of women across state lines for immoral purposes. Oh. I think
they just call that sex trafficking now. Yeah. Yeah. Uh Gaskowski, in response, told her if she did that, he would tell
the authorities that she was a murderess. And they're like, you know what? Let's
go our separate ways. Yeah, the argument just kind of ended there. But, a few days after they returned home to
Chicago, he died unexpectedly. Sir, did you eat something that she served? Might have.
>> Cuz that's wild work. >> He might have. That's wild work. Yeah. Holy [ __ ] So, after the death of
Gaskowski, Tilly didn't head straight out to find a new man this time. Instead, she just lived with a man known
only by the last name of Myers. Hm. Uh during their time together, she would usually introduce herself as Mrs. Myers,
even though they were not officially married. And she seemed to just be living off the money from the
inheritances and all the insurance policies of her old husbands. Uh but, neighbors did recall a man
living with her for at least some amount of time until he just vanished at the end of 1918. Maybe it was Michael Myers.
Maybe. That's why he pissed. He peaced out. >> Yeah, that's why he's mad. He said, "I
have a girl named Laurie back home. I got to go." Maybe. Maybe. So, this period of living as Mrs. Myers came to
an end when Michael left, and in March of 1919, when Tilly married her third husband, Frank Kupchik.
But, if the marriage was ever a happy one, it did not last very long. So, by this time the money from the
inheritances and the insurances had probably run out, and that meant that Tilly had to get her ass a job. So, she
started working at a local tailoring shop in order to support herself and her husband, her new husband. At the same
time, neighbors started to notice that every day after her husband, Frank, went to work, another man that she only
referred to as John would stop by the apartment to, quote, "Smooch Tilly on the porch." Oh. She would say
>> was side smooching. >> This is scandalous-o. >> Yeah, [ __ ] >> Just stopping by for a smooch on the
porch? >> Right after Frank leaves for work? Right on his porch? >> Damn. [ __ ] up. So, things carried on
that way between Frank and Tilly Just smooching. >> and apparently John. Yeah. >> Yeah, for 2 years until one day in 1921
when Frank became seriously ill. Now, to their neighbors, it seemed that his condition was dire, but Tilly was
chilling. She did not seem alarmed in the slightest. >> It's a red flag. >> In fact, as far as they could tell, she
almost seemed light-hearted about his illness. >> Wow. Years later, during her trial, her
landlady, Martha Wasilewski, recalled one afternoon when Tilly, quote, "Came out in the yard with a piece of
newspaper all about a fine coffin for $30 that she was going to get for Frank." Holy [ __ ] Can you imagine?
>> No. She's just like advertising to the townspeople, like, "This is the coffin
I'm going to get." >> $30 coffin. >> Not dead yet, but he will be. >> Damn. So, Wasilewski was uh horrified by
how cavalier that she was being about Frank's very serious illness. According to the landlady, this was only one of
many suspicions and callous statements made by Tilly at the time. Other neighbors also recalled her
knitting a hat for herself that she said she was going to wear to Frank's funeral.
She is planning for this like you plan for Coachella. >> Yeah. Like she's going to have the whole
fit ready. Nice coffin. >> Show place to stay. Yep. Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. I can't stop saying holy [ __ ]
>> Holy [ __ ] She just doesn't give a [ __ ] >> Some people also remembered that she
would just casually talk about how Frank only had {quote} 2 in to live. And like that he was going to be dead
soon. I think it was >> That metric of measurement sounds like it doesn't fit here.
>> It doesn't. I think that might have been a a language barrier thing. >> Oh, perhaps. So she was like
what 2 seconds to live? I don't know. Yeah, who knows? I I mean but maybe maybe she made up a new saying. Either
way not a not a lot of time to live. >> No, not a lot. So whether she was joking
or not, it turned out that she was in fact correct about Frank's future. A few days later on April 25th, 1921, Frank
Kupchik died in their apartment. >> Oh boy. During the funeral a few days later with Frank's body on display for
mourners for mourners >> Mourners. That's hard to say. for mourners, Tilly played upbeat dance
music on a record player. Holy [ __ ] Holy [ __ ] One night only. One night only she said. That's really
[ __ ] up. One mourner recalled later that at one point during the funeral Tilly reached
into the coffin and grabbed Frank's ear shouting, "You devil, you won't get up anymore." Oh my god.
Yeah, she's nuts. I just can't imagine being a a I would be >> Like what do you do? What are you to do?
What are you meant to do in this I think you just leave. I think you leave your well respects with Frank and you say you
deserved better. >> Grab his ear and be like, "You devil, dead." Like, that's crazy.
It is. It is, in fact. >> That's crazy work. >> Yeah, they were like, "Is she drunk?"
Holy [ __ ] So, the next day after assaulting her husband's dead body, she collected $675,
which would be like $11,000 today. >> Wow. >> Just about, uh, from his life insurance
policy, and she set out to find herself a new husband. >> Yeah, cuz like she said, "You won't get
up anymore." >> No. Like, my goodness, Tillie. I know. >> Poor Frank. So, everybody who knew her
to that point knew that she was a very brash woman with a, uh, unusual sense of humor, you could say.
But, even to those who knew her well, they had to admit that her attitude around Frank's death was suspicious and
crass. >> Yeah. To the more superstitious among them, too, the fact that she seemed to
have the ability to predict her husband's death was evidence of strong psychic ability.
>> Oh, yeah. She Let's Let's call her a witch. >> They said, "She seems psychic." Or
murderous. >> That's the thing. Others quietly gossiped about her potential involvement.
>> Yeah, the realists among us. Could be a psychic, could be a homicidal. >> Could be psychic, could be a murderess.
Real toss-up here. Yeah, especially with the way she's acting. Real toss-up. >> Yeah, you know. Yeah. Crazy gal. So,
when it came to the neighborhood gossip, she provided more than enough material in the wake of Frank's death. When her
previous relationships ended with the, uh, {quote} {unquote} untimely deaths of her husbands, she waited at
least a few weeks before looking for a new man to get together with. >> Oh, good. This time, she didn't actually
even wait until the end of the funeral before cosying up to the recently widowed Joseph Klimack, who was also a
friend of Frank's and at the funeral. So, this man was at the funeral where she grabbed Frank's ear in the coffin
and was like, "You devil, you're not getting up anymore." >> Yeah. >> And was playing like oontz oontz oontz
oontz on the And he's like, "Yeah, this will be fun." Well, my goodness. That afternoon
>> Joseph. I'm not sure what happened because that afternoon their interaction was said to be casual and short. So,
maybe he stopped in after all the madness. >> Maybe. He said because he recalled later
she felt too bad to see people. Yeah. So, maybe she had already left after causing that spectacle. They were
like somebody was like we should get her out of here. Somebody was like you should go home. And Joseph was like, I
don't know. He had to have seen her at some point. >> Because he was like she felt too bad to
see people, but she did allow herself to be by him for a few weeks before agreeing to marry him. Wow. So, they
they got to chat at the funeral and then they were like, let's get married in a few weeks.
>> great. He later said that he married her for a nice home because she was a good
cook and kept a clean space. At least there's that. Men are simple creatures. >> Yep. By the time they were married, he
had already heard some of the rumors and gossip about her past with men and just
her in general, but he didn't care and he didn't believe any of it. He said, "As soon as we married, she burned all
the photographs of her husbands and her man friends and she tore up all her letters. She had my picture on the
mantel. That was all." She He said, "No more man friends." No more man friends, just me on the mantel, babe. I'm your
only man friend. One man friend for you, girl. >> Yeah. So, he might have believed that
Tillie had changed her ways and was committed to him since his picture was on the mantel and all. Yeah. But survey
said that was a lie. Within a few months Tillie was openly complaining about her
marriage, especially to her cousin Nellie Kulick. According to Nellie, when she suggested that Tillie get a divorce
if she was so unhappy, Tillie said, "No, I'll get rid of him some other way." Or just divorce him. You could just
divorce him, but you won't get the life insurance in that case. Why the murder? Well, at the end of the year Tillie
learned that Joseph had a $1,000 life insurance policy with the Catholic Order of Foresters.
I don't know if that means that they're like Catholic tree people. Yeah, I was going to say that, you know what?
They're known to have pretty solid life insurance policies, I think. >> Like oak. Yeah. Solid unlike bull. So,
she insisted that this was not enough money and she said, "You need to increase that and also make me the
beneficiary. I'm your wife now." >> Of course. And she said it was also important because she was in fact
psychic like the townspeople had said. And she'd had a premonition that Joseph was going to die soon and if he did, she
didn't want to be poor with him being gone. Imagine your your spouse saying that to you. Also like your new spouse.
>> Yeah, and and now they're like, "You know, everybody thinks I'm psychic and I I did have a vision. You're going to
die. >> Where you die. Oh. And I would like your money if that's the case. Like, what do
you do? Yeah. In the days that followed, she would just walk around their house telling him, "You're pretty near dead
now." Oh my god. And then she'd say, "Didn't I tell you? You're not going to live long." Oh.
Scary. Tilly. Scary. He is the origin story of I think I'm going to die in this house.
That's where that came from. Yeah. But guess what? He was brave. He declined to add any more coverage to his
[ __ ] >> "I'm not dying in this house." And no, he said, "I don't think I'm going to die
in this house." And he also made his son the beneficiary of the policy. What's that? Which then caused Tilly to take
out two life insurance policies on him and accident insurance all in his name. The red flags are piling up. They're
flagging. Yeah. >> The flags are flagging. They're blankets. So, once the the new policies
were in place, Joseph's mysterious illnesses quickly followed. Oh. It started with quote, "Shooting pains in
his arms and legs." Hm. And then his arms and legs became stiff and eventually numb. So, he was like
basically paralyzed. >> His breath also started to smell strongly of garlic even though he wasn't
eating very garlicky foods. >> Oh. Within a few days, his symptoms became so severe that he was paralyzed from the
waist down. Oh my. And trigger warning for animal death. At the same time, two of his dogs also
died from a mysterious illness after eating food scraps from his plate at the table.
>> no. Is Is this arsenic? Could be. Okay. Good call. Was it the jarlic? It's the jarlic. So,
Joseph had been seen by Tilly's doctor and had been given multiple prescriptions, but nothing seemed to be
helping the pain or the numbness that he was experiencing. After Joseph suffered
for several days, his brother John >> I just feel bad. >> I know, me too. After he was suffering, his brother John
insisted that he needed to see a different doctor. He needed a second opinion. >> Yeah. And Tilly was like, "No."
>> It's fine. >> "My doctor is the tits and I'm more than capable of caring for my husband." And
she said, "I don't need help from a stranger." No way. And John said, "Hey, that's cool, but I'm not a stranger cuz
he's my brother." Yeah. Like, "What girl?" Huh? So, he was like, "No, no, no, no, no. I'm arranging for a
physician to look him over of my choosing." So, he hired Dr. P.T. Burns to check in
on his brother. Burns took one look at Joseph and immediately, like Alena, recognized the
telltale signs of arsenic poisoning. According to Burns, Climac showed every evidence of a slow poison, but to be
sure, he returned later that afternoon to double-check the symptoms and that only convinced him further. Mhm. So, Dr.
Burns had Joseph taken to the hospital where the other doctors predicted that he had, quote, This is wild.
about an equal chance to live or die. That's literally the worst thing I can imagine hearing out of a doctor's
office. >> No, like imagine Even though that's kind of like life. Yeah, that that does have
I'm sure many people have heard that. >> why? Why did you need a medical degree to
tell me that? I feel like that's just every day. We roll the dice. Do you know about coin tosses?
>> Yeah. Pick heads or tails. >> that's basically where you are. Your life is a penny. Like, isn't that where
all of us are? Yeah. >> Equal chances to live or die. Yeah, pretty much. So, once he'd been removed
from the house, Dr. Burns checked in with the attending doctor and got a list of all the prescriptions that Joseph had
been given because medicine did contain arsenic back then. Yeah, remember? Arsenic was everywhere. Exactly.
Literally, it was in cosmetics, like all that [ __ ] So, he was like, "Okay, maybe
that's the case here. Like, maybe one of your medicines has arsenic in it and you're like overdoing it or something
like that." So, he took all of the medications to a chemist, Dr. William McNally, who tested each individual
medication and confirmed that all of them showed evidence of arsenic. Oh. But, they weren't supposed to. Oh.
>> They weren't medicines that were supposed to have arsenic included amongst the ingredients. So, that meant
that somebody had intentionally poisoned him. My, how the turns have tabled. >> Yeah, it's so crazy. We didn't see this
coming. What? I can't believe she She was putting arsenic in his medications? >> I think.
>> Probably because she knows they're all getting suspicious of eating her food.
>> Yeah, probably. >> So, she's like, "Well, I They're not going to be suspicious of their meds."
>> I think it may have been a mixture of both, to be honest with you. >> Damn. So, Burns reported his findings
and all of the results of the chemical analysis to police, conveying to them that he suspected Tilly of poisoning her
husband. >> Wow. They reviewed the evidence and everything that they had already started
to hear about Tilly in years past. In October 26th, 1922, detectives not only arrested Tilly, but her 26-year-old son,
Joseph, at their home. >> Oh. The announcement of Tilly's arrest in the newspapers seemed to kind of break a
dam on local gossip. >> Oh, no. And within hours, investigators were receiving anonymous letters just
like in tons. So, they were like, "Please exhume all of the bodies of her previous husbands and examine them for
signs of poisoning." >> going down, for real. Yeah, it's going down, for real, Tilly.
In their search of her apartment or their apartment together, investigators discovered a bottle of arsenic labeled
Rough on Rats. Rough on Rats. >> And Tilly's son said, "That belonged to a former nurse who lived with us the
previous year." Like that's that's not ours. It's just here. I also love that it's like it's rat poison essentially
and he's like, "Oh no, a nurse lived here." Cuz nurses use arsenic and you're like, "Babe,
that's rat poison." Like you didn't need to throw the nurse in there. >> No. Just say that belonged to a previous
owner. Or just say like, "Yeah, we have that cuz we had a rat problem." >> rat poison. Like He's like, "No, that
was a nurse." It's like, "Not ours. Wasn't me." Definitely medical. At the station, Tilly was relentlessly
questioned by detectives and now the state's attorney who suspected her not just of attempted murder, but of
multiple murders at this point. >> They demanded to know how it was that the two dogs who had eaten from Joseph's
plate also came to die. >> Yeah. And she insisted, "They just fell over and died. You can't make me a
poisoner. I'll show you that my first husband had an infection in his throat." I'll show you?
Thank you. Thank you so much. Do you have his throat, man? Well, what is that? >> his larynx?
>> Like what is going on? >> know if she just meant like, "I'll take you to the doctor that
>> I'll show you." But also her first husband died of heart problems. Oops. Yeah.
So, what? >> Oops. What was that, baby? She's like, "Did you lose track of husbands?"
>> His throat hurt, too. So, while she was at the police station claiming innocence, Joseph, her husband, was at
the hospital telling police a very different story. According to him, he had been examined by a doctor a few
weeks earlier after his wife took out a new life insurance policy and he immediately fell ill. He said, "A week
or two later after the examination, I found I couldn't smoke anymore. Oh no. One day my soup tasted strange. Another
time the coffee was funny. Then I began to get sick. I seemed to be burning up. I'm afraid someone poisoned me in a
plot." In a plot? >> In a plot they poisoned me. In a plot? He wouldn't name Tilly outright, but it
was pretty clear to the detectives that if anybody had poisoned this guy, it would have to be somebody who had access
to his food and like his personal belongings. >> There was nobody else in the house who
stood to gain more from Joseph's death either than his wife, and she did seem to have a history of men dying around
her not long after getting married. >> And acted crazy at their funerals. >> She yeah, that was that was pretty wild.
That was her that's that's just Tilly. Yeah, that's just Tilly things. So at the precinct, investigators confronted
Tilly with all of the evidence and their theory. They're like, "Hey, you know how
like you have this string of husbands that turns up dead and now like your current husband is on the precipice of
death, you know, 50/50 give or take." It's weird. We think you might have something to do with that.
>> Yeah, strange. And she broke down and confessed that she tried to poison Joseph because he was {quote} "fooling
around with other women." Oh, no. It's like, "Baby, even if that's the case, you can't try to poison him." And like
that they're not going to understand that. >> Yeah, just let him let him be a fool.
Now to add even more salaciousness to this, according to Tilly, she received the poison from her cousin Nellie.
Oh. And she said she started putting it in her husband's food after he was examined for the life insurance policy.
>> Oh. A few days later, the coroner exhumed Fred Kuc Chick's body for analysis. I think I believe that was her
first husband. And discovered that his remains still contained arsenic enough to kill four men. Holy [ __ ] Yeah. It
hadn't even degraded, that's how much it was? Damn. Which also like obviously some of it probably had degraded and
there was still enough >> that high. to kill four men. >> Yeah. At the same time, the case
appeared to expand with the arrest now of Tilly's cousin Nellie who was also suspected of murder.
>> Nellie and Tilly. Just like her cousin Tilly, a surprising number of people around Nellie seemed to have fallen ill
or died from mysterious causes, including her late husband, who was uh Wojciech Stummer.
I would never suspect Nelly and Tilly I know. >> people. Well, that's the thing. Nobody
did for a while. Until You can only murder so many people until people start to like And literally people that you
are really connected to. Yeah. Constantly. Like the most connected to. >> you stand to gain financially from
murdering. Yeah, you got to It's good that they weren't undercover. >> that, that's going to catch up with you.
And it did. One of the notes that police received after Tilly's arrest indicated
that Nelly's husband had in fact been poisoned by her. Oh, boy. And initially, the note wasn't given a lot of
attention, but once they learned that Tilly got the poison from her cousin, that's when they started to look at her
as an accomplice. >> "Wait a minute." So, the arrest of Nelly caused a sensation among the press, who
immediately started to speculate about her being a second Mrs. Bluebeard. >> god. In 1920 Chicago, it wouldn't have
been that surprising for a woman to kill her husband, which is crazy. Especially if she thought he was
cheating. >> I know. Especially if she thought he was cheating on her with another woman.
Apparently, that was like an epidemic. >> Dang. But two women seemingly working together to murder their husbands for
money, that was a good story. That is a good story. >> as the press were concerned, that's a
that's good [ __ ] It's going to pay the bills. Sell the tapes. So, each day the story seemed to get
more and more sensationalized. Just one day after Nelly's arrest, investigators announced that they were exhuming the
bodies of each woman's first husband to search for signs of poisoning. >> This is very salacious.
>> It is. And since Nelly's husband died 1 year before Tilly's first husband, the
press speculated that Tilly, quote, may have been a student of Mrs. Stummer. Oh my goodness. So, they were like, "Fuck,
is Nelly like the OG Mrs. Bluebeard?" >> And then the student surpasses the teacher? Yeah.
>> Damn. >> In in a series of events that we really >> Yeah. A series of four very unfortunate
events. >> Lemony Snicket. Yeah. So, the discovery of of in the remains of two, now, of
Tilly's dead husbands >> prompted police to expand their potential victim pool, and they started
taking the claims and assertions previously regarded as gossip seriously now. >> to. For example, Harry Sweda, one of
Tilly's cousins, told the attorney general that his sister, who also would have been Tilly's cousin, Uh-oh. uh his
sister, Rose, died mysteriously after attending a dinner at Tilly's apartment. And here I am
overcooking my chicken Yeah. to hell Don't do that. >> because I'm scared of giving someone a
tummy ache. I know. I know you take chicken precautions super seriously. >> and this woman, you come to her house,
you might die. You might. In fact, die, especially if she doesn't like you. Damn. Uh another cousin, Elizabeth
Ventchavsky, told investigators about the unexpected death of two of her sisters and a brother, all of whom had
dined with Tilly shortly before they died. What the actual [ __ ] Yeah. How many people has she murdered?
The thing is, we're not sure. >> The limit does not exist. >> Period. >> Yeah. Yeah, there's actually no period
as far as Tilly's concerned. >> It's an ellipsis. A many. >> Yeah. >> There's a series of ellipses.
>> Yeah. With each new claim came a new order to exhume another body, and soon Dr. McNally, the coroner, was completely
overwhelmed by requests for analysis of so many different remains. >> So, despite their strong suspicions that
there were, in fact, other victims, the state attorney's office only had Tilly's
confession to the attempted poisoning of her current husband, which obviously obviously was not a murder cuz he's
still alive. But, there was a strong enough case to prosecute her for the murder of I was
incorrect her third husband. Originally, I thought that was her first. >> Oh my goodness.
>> There's so many of them. Her third husband, Frank Kupchik. Damn. So, he was the one who she had put enough arsenic
to kill four men. >> men, at least. Now, on November 11th, 1922, Tilly was formally charged with Frank's murder,
and she pleaded not guilty. At the same time, Nellie was charged with the murder of her husband, Wojciech
Stürmer. In the meantime, investigators just continued to dig into their past, looking for even more potential victims.
>> Yeah. After their arraignment, the Mrs. Bluebeard story seemed to grow even larger, at least as far as the press was
concerned. Just one day after Tilly and Nellie appeared in court, the papers were announcing the discovery of even
more potential victims, >> Holy [ __ ] including Tilly's former husband, Joseph Ruskowski, and this is
horrible, two of Nellie's children, both of whom died in infancy. >> Holy [ __ ] Yeah.
Now, there was no evidence of foul play, but the press did imply that six of Nellie's children had died under
mysterious circumstances. >> What? And they started comparing her and Tilly to Belle Gunness. Oh my god, I was
I was wondering if that was going to be a comparison. >> Yeah. We haven't done I think is it
Gunness or Gunness? It might be Gunness. >> it might be Gunness. I'm not positive,
but Yeah, we'll we will cover that I think eventually cuz a lot of people know about that case and it is highly
requested. It's a terrible one. >> She just kills like all of her children, right? And like legit babies.
>> Yeah, she's pretty terrible, but she but her story is unbelievable. Ah, well, in
the worst way. Do you remember that old show, I don't know if it was on ID, Killer Women?
>> Yeah. And that was the first time I ever saw that. >> Oh, really? >> Yeah, that's how I saw that case. Damn.
Um so, she was famous because she had been arrested a a decade earlier, which is crazy to think that was a decade
before all of this. >> Now, the claims were given credibility when Nellie's husband's body was
exhumed, and his remains were found to contain traces of arsenic. >> Oh, damn. >> So, she's in on this. She's in on the
spree. With each day that passed, Tilly and Nellie's suspected body count just continued to increase, and came to
include former husbands, family members, neighbors, pretty much anyone who died while under their care, or anyone who
had been recently in the company of either woman. >> Holy [ __ ] By mid-November, the
suspected number of victims had risen to 20 people, and that was just as they were indicted by a grand jury.
>> Wow. Their trial was scheduled for winter 1923, and in the meantime, investigators just continued to build
their case, and the press continued their daily coverage of every sensational aspect of the story that
they could come up with. Which they didn't even really have to come up with much. It was all just there for them.
>> there. The intense press coverage made Tilly kind of a celebrity, and she gave
interviews from her jail cell. I know. I hate that part of murder investigations
and trials and everything. >> that they're like giving interviews and [ __ ] >> The accused definitely do start to
become like weird celebrities. >> Yeah. But she commented on everything from previous relationships with men to
her opinions on young people, and even the rising popularity of flappers. Babe, no one should hear your opinion on
young people, or your opinion on flappers. Or your relationships with men. Yeah, I definitely don't want to
hear that. >> No. We know your relationships with men. Exactly. She told one reporter, "Me, I
came to this country when I was a year old from Germany. No foolishness with us. We work." Basically indicating that
she didn't think young people worked anymore. >> Oh, damn. Okay. I know, she was mad.
However, when it came to the actual charges against her, she didn't really say very much, and she just wasn't
interested in talking about it. >> Super like, whatever. >> Yeah, very superficial about it all.
Now, if she appeared calm and collected when it came to the press, Nellie was the exact opposite. Whenever she gave
statements to the press, she seemed very anxious, very overly emotional. She once
begged a reporter, "Write to my children. Write to my people. Tell them not to believe all they hear."
Now, to spectators following the case, Tilly was exactly the type of woman who seemed as at home in a jail cell as she
did in her own apartment. She didn't give a [ __ ] >> Tillie was made for this life.
>> She literally was, but Nelly was out of place. Like, she was losing her mind.
>> Yeah. By the end of November, investigators announced that they were searching for a third potential
conspirator in the case. >> My goodness. Nelly's current friend and former boarder, Mary Wojcikowski.
According to the press, Wojcikowski's husband and his brother both died, {quote} after drinking beer at a party
at which Miss Kulick was present, and they believed the death was due to arsenic.
How much arsenic did these women have? Arsenic was just like, I think like CVS had arsenic back
>> God damn. It was just like, go down the street and grab some arsenic. >> Yeah.
And also, I guess you could just buy rat poison. Yeah, there's that. Oi. Oi. Now,
additional arrests were made. Nelly's sister was arrested and her niece was arrested on suspicion of murder. Just a
group of gals. The press started referring to the women as the Bluebeard click. Woah.
>> And they called Tillie the high priestess of the group. >> Get the [ __ ] out of here.
>> I was like, don't call her the high priestess. That's so like, [ __ ] you. I don't know. So, you're mixing your
references here. It just doesn't make sense. >> Yeah, you Don't overegg the pudding.
>> Yeah. Tillie finally went on trial in early March of 1923 with Assistant States Attorney William McLaughlin
prosecuting. >> McLaughlin? I always think of John when I hear that name. By then, they all as a
group had been indicted on six murders. Wow. In his opening statement, McLaughlin presented the case the
state's case in simple terms. He said the two women had planned and carried out a wholesale poison plot, which
claimed at least six lives and caused serious illness to nearly a score more. Wow. And he said they did this through a
series of poison parties. >> Poison parties. >> And that their motives ranged from
financial gain to ridding themselves of anyone they disliked. Poison parties. >> Poison parties. Like
like a Tupperware party. Holy [ __ ] >> Or a Botox party. Wow. Yeah. After listing out all the names of those
believed to have been killed by the pair and those also made ill, McLaughlin announced that if convicted, they would
be seeking the death penalty. Damn. >> Which was not That didn't happen all that often.
>> with women. >> No. So, over the course of the week-long trial, witnesses included six
physicians, a chemist, four nurses, and several insurance agents, as you can imagine, who all testified against the
accused. By far the most entertaining were a trio of grave diggers and an undertaker,
who were all neighbors of Tilly and her husband around the time of his death. What?
One of the undertakers told the jury, "Frank used to leave for work every day at 6:00, and I'd often see John Cowski
come over to visit Tilly. Once I seen him kiss her." So, they're like, here we go talking
about John coming for the smooches. They said, "She's a trollop." They said, "She
be smooching." One thing about Tilly, don't let anyone She stays smooching John.
>> It's It's always John. She's got a thing for him. Now, the most compelling evidence came
from the doctors and nurses who were actively still treating Joseph Klymac, who was still too ill to testify against
his wife at that point. >> Did we all forget he's still alive? >> He's still alive. According to nurse
Mildred Scully, Yep. who I would trust with my [ __ ] life, >> Yep, same. >> and who had been treating Joseph while
he was still in the home, Tilly routinely made tasteless jokes about her husband's impending death, and on one
occasion told the nurse, "If he makes any trouble for you, take a 2x4 board and hit him over the head with it." So,
here's the thing. That's funny as hell. >> Yeah. And if she wasn't a mass murderer,
that like a serial killer, I'd be like, that's just regular like you've been married and you're trying to be funny
when your husband's like in a really shitty position. >> But then you look at it in context.
>> But then you look at it like she's a serial killer and actually does harm people, you're like, oh, that's the
scariest thing I've ever heard cuz she's actually telling you to do that. Yeah. But like you could see some like you
know, feisty lady I guarantee you all just giving you trouble just hit them with a 2 by 4. Like that would be funny.
>> I guarantee you at least 14 people listening their nanas have said that about their partners.
>> 100% as like a total joke. But you're looking at it here and you're like oh. Oh [ __ ] she meant it.
>> That's dark side. >> She meant it and she said the 2 by 4's right there. She said do it.
>> Sinister. So apparently she smiled too during the trial when Mildred was testifying about
that. And everybody in the jury was like she's smiling over there. >> there being like that was a good joke.
She's like she's like me. She finds this is the only way we're similar. She finds
she cracks herself up. >> Yeah. No one finds Tilly funnier than Tilly. And no one finds Ash funnier than
Ash. I crack myself up. >> He does. I love it. So for the most part Tilly sat emotionless behind the defendant's table
while each witness as they came one by one testified against her. She did become emotional when the
chemist Dr. William McNally took the stand interestingly. When he entered the witness box the
press noted that Tilly quote jammed her stocky body well back in the chair and swung her feet in incessant circles as
she tried to understand the testimony. Love how they had to throw in stocky there. Not only if you actually like let
me read that for you one more time. Jammed her stocky body well into the chair and swung her feet in incessant
circles as she tried to understand the testimony. They said that [ __ ] is stocky and dumb.
She's blocky and dumb. >> That's really [ __ ] rude. They said she's a Minecraft character and she's
dumb. Not a Minecraft character. Like woah. No, she seemed anxious when she was a Minecraft chemical character as
the chemist explained in plain detail all of the symptoms about arsenic poisoning and confirmed that all three
of Tilly's dead husbands had in fact been poisoned. Despite the compelling body of evidence
and all the testimony against her she still proved to be a pretty strong witness when she took the stand in her
own defense as well. Which is much like um Joseph's, he could live or he could die.
>> Yeah. Taking your own Taking the stand in your own defense, you could live or
you could die. >> Dressed in plain black attire with a translator by her side, she strongly and
repeatedly denied killing anyone including her husband Frank Kupchik. When asked directly whether she was
responsible for Frank's death, she replied, "I certainly was not. He died by moonshine."
Oh. I don't know if she meant the drink. The drink. I'm assuming she meant the drink.
>> Cuz she That was the one where she said his throat, too. >> Yeah. So, who Who knows?
>> Now, as for any marital troubles or affairs, she dismissed that as nothing more than gossip. She told the jury, "I
loved them. They loved me. They just died same as other people. I'm not responsible for that. I could not help
if they wanted to die." Uh Why are we assuming they wanted to die now? That's the thing. I was like, Well, I
mean, these were young men. Like they weren't old. >> Yeah. And like they didn't They didn't
die by like you know, like that suicide was not considered here. >> that she's like, "I It's not my fault
that they they like just chose not to get better." Like literally, that's exactly what she said.
>> Sorry you chose to get sick. Ooh. Your fault. >> Weird. Like what the [ __ ] Tilly?
>> Yeah, she didn't give a [ __ ] Now, the press was actually impressed with her
calm demeanor and her ability to maintain composure. Yeah, is the press okay? No, never.
But ultimately, the jury was less convinced. In the end, the evidence against Tilly was much too damning and
the prosecution was convincing. So, on March 13th, after just an hour of deliberation, the jury found Tilly
guilty for the murder of Frank Kupchik. When the verdict was read, she didn't show any emotion at all and she quote
sat so still she made her neighbors wiggle uncomfortably. Ew. I know. Fortunately for Tilly, the jury could
not bring themselves to sentence a woman to death. So, they >> recommended life in prison.
On her way back to her cell after the trial, her only response to the crowd of reporters outside was to talk about how
warm it was in the courthouse. Damn. It's warm in there. That's cold-blooded. >> Yeah. Now,
as she was led from the courtroom, she was also met with the cheers of her female supporters in the court who
shouted, "Never mind, Tilly. Don't forget there's a new motion for a new trial for a week from Saturday. Cheer
up." Wow. Babe, they exhumed the three bodies of her three husbands that all contained so
much arsenic it could blow your [ __ ] skirt up. Like, god damn. Could blow your skirt into another galaxy.
>> Literally. Forget the Milky Way, babe. What the And you're like, "Don't worry, girl.
Don't get down on yourself." Cheer up. All smiles, Tilly. It's all up from here. No, it's It's down from here.
She's going to jail. Oh, lord. >> Now, Nelly's trial was repeatedly delayed for more than a year while she
sat in the jail cell. But on November 8th, 1923, a jury found her not guilty and she was free to go.
What? Mind you, they exhumed her husband's body and there was arsenic in it. He had the arsenic. Yeah.
I wonder if they thought that Tilly did it. Maybe. Now, in the weeks and months after
Tilly's trial, there was a lot of talk about the fact that several other Chicago women had been acquitted on
murder charges and Tilly was very quickly convicted. Some members of the press and public speculated that her
conviction was due to her lacking physical attraction. Woah. >> They said, "I think you convicted her
cuz she's ugly." I'm not saying she's ugly, but that's what they said. >> That's what they said.
>> And they pointed to the repeated unkind descriptions of her throughout the trial.
Mostly male journalists pushed back on that complaint. One journalist wrote, "There's no good reason to believe that
they would have acquitted her had she been other than homely. The evidence showed that she was guilty of
deliberately planning the death of at least one man and probably a dozen more. >> I mean, valid. Calling someone homely is
so Homely is homely? >> diabolical. It's That's down dirty. >> Yeah, it really is.
>> Too much. Now, once she settled into life in prison, she was kind of thriving in there. Yeah,
I think she was meant for that life. >> She was in fact meant for that life. She
was a model prisoner. She found work sewing American flags for other prison institutions.
>> Wow. She had a bunch of homies in there. >> Okay. Uh staff loved her. She didn't
pose any problems at all. And then on November 20th, 1936, she died of heart disease at Dwight prison and she was 64.
That's young. Yeah. Wow, Tilly. Isn't that one of the wildest stories? Tilly raged. She raged.
She was really the high priestess of arsenic poisoning. >> Yeah, she raged through life.
Yeah, forget dancing through life. Yeah, she was not Tilly. No. She was never meant for that.
>> Never. Holy [ __ ] And Joseph lived, that's nice. >> Oh, Joseph lived. I didn't think of
that, yeah. So, he lived. I mean, that's rough. Rough existence after that, but >> Yeah.
I don't know what the long-term effects of arsenic poisoning are. >> Do you have a
Do you have a fun fact? >> was a crazy story and yes, I do have a fun fact. Don't forget a fun fact. This is thanks
to Mikey. Mikey gave me this fun fact. >> Orcas are a natural predator of moose.
How? They can dive to eat seaweed. Moose can. Moose? And orcas are documented natural
predators of moose in coastal Alaska and Canada. They attack them when they swim
between islands or along shorelines. Wow. I don't know how fun that is, but it's mind-blowing.
>> love moose. So, now I have street beef with orcas. You actually can't really have street
beef with them. >> I have ocean beef with orcas. >> You have aquatic beef. >> Yeah, I have marine beef.
>> Marine beef? Not Oh, that's perfect. Marine beef. I have marine beef. Why does that sound disgusting?
I was just I just pictured soggy hamburgers. It's marine beef. >> Not marine beef. Yeah, I have marine
beef with orcas now, so but that's fine because I don't go to the ocean, so We're going to go unpack that. But, I'm
really worried about moose. So, that's that's how I feel, and >> Is What is the plural of moose? Mooses?
Meeces? >> Mooses? I think it's moose. Moo- I don't like that. It doesn't feel correct.
>> that group of moose over there. >> Yeah, that sounds so wrong. >> know if I'm right. I think you are.
But, I don't like it. of moose. Moose. Hate it. I have to unpack that now, too. We have
a lot to unpack. It says correct. I saw three moose. Incorrect. I saw three mooses or three meeces.
Nah, meeces is better. >> Or three meese. Meeces. Yeah, mooses. Apparently, did not evolve from Old
English, and that's why we didn't get a plural. Oh. So, that's another fun fact.
Look at you. You're so fun. Look at you. You're so Look at that. All right. Well, we hope
you keep listening. We hope you >> keep it weird. But, not so weird that you spend several
days thinking about the plural of moose. Just be moose. It's moose. Think about it.
Maybe keep it though. Keep it weird. Moose. >> Mhm.

Chicago in the 1920s is often remembered for the rise of organized crime and it’s larger than life leaders like Al Capone and Johnny Torrio. While these men and their organizations surely shaped the city’s identity, their infamy and influence were, at least for a short time, rivaled by a group of young women whose murderous acts would dominate headlines in papers around the country throughout the decade.

While Beulah Annan and Belva Gardner—the real-life inspiration for the musical Chicago—were arguably the most well known of the female murders from this era, their famous murders were preceded by the equally sensationalized murder spree of Tillie Klimek. Between 1914 and 1921, Klimek was believed to have killed as many as seven people including four husbands. While her crimes would ultimately land her in the Illinois State Penitentiary for the rest of her life, her exploits and criminal trial were sensational and occupied the front pages of city newspapers for years.

Buy Tickets to our LIVE SHOW at Radio City Music Hall on June 27th!

References

Chicago Tribune. 1922. "Death called mere routine in posion home." Chicago Tribune, November 15: 1.

—. 1922. "Find arsenic, arrest wife and stepson." Chicago Tribune, October 27: 1.

—. 1922. "Klimek poison list is twenty; arrest 1 more." Chicago Tribune, November 19: 1.

—. 1922. "Koulik friend sought in new poison charge." Chicago Tribune, November 26: 5.

—. 1922. "Mystery deaths in poison case may reach 20." Chicago Tribune, November 14: 3.

—. 1923. "Tillie Klimek is strong witness in own defense." Chicago Tribune, March 13: 7.

Danville Commercial News. 1923. "The woman, not the jury, was on trial." Chicago Tribune, March 30: 8.

Forbes, Genevieve. 1923. "Grave digger tells of goings on at Klimks'." Chicago Tribune, March 10: 3.

—. 1923. "How Mrs. Klimek jested of death of husband told." Chicago Tribune, March 9: 7.

—. 1923. "Life in prison for woman as arch poisoner." Chicago Tribune, March 14: 1.

—. 1923. "'Ma' Koulik, wise in jail learning, goes back home." Chicago Tribune, November 9: 4.

—. 1923. "Poison evidence robs Mrs. Klimek of indifference." Chicago Tribune, March 11: 7.

International News Service. 1922. "May exhume bodies of four former husbands." Waukegan News-Sun, October 27: 12.

Lynch, Charles. 1923. "Ask hanging for 2 women charged with murder orgy." Belvidere Daily Republican, March 6: 1.

Telfer, Tori. 2017. Lady Killers: Deadly Women Throughout History. New York, NY: Harper Perennial.

United Press. 1922. "Chicago police suspect second 'Mrs. BLuebeard'." Freeport Journal-Standard, November 4: 1.

Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Listener Tale Theme Music licensed from https://www.purple-planet.com Main Theme: Matti Paalanen — Trick or Treat — Provided by Jamendo Ad Music: Title: Artist: BlueJay Studio — Spooky Waltz — Provided by Jamendo

Brief Summary

Tilly Klimek, the "Mrs. Bluebeard of Chicago," poisoned her husbands for insurance money, leading to her arrest and conviction for murder.

Key points

The Dark History of Hump Day. A humorous discussion about a camel commercial leads to surprising revelations.
Tilly Klimek: Mrs. Bluebeard of Chicago. Exploring the life of Tilly Klimek, a woman infamous for her deadly relationships.
Tilly's Unusual Mourning Rituals. Tilly's behavior during her husband's funeral raises eyebrows and suspicions.
The Psychic Wife. Tilly insists on increasing her husband's life insurance, claiming she has premonitions.
Mysterious Illnesses Follow Policies. After new life insurance policies were taken out, Joseph's health rapidly declined, raising suspicions.
Confession of Poisoning. Tilly confessed to poisoning Joseph due to suspicions of infidelity, revealing a dark motive.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I wish I was a better language than I am.

Expressing a desire to be fluent in another language.

4:09WatchApr 9, 2026

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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