Episode 766: Glennon Engleman - The Killer Dentist | Forensic Files

Hey weirdos, I'm Alina. >> I'm Ash. >> And this is Morbid. >> [music] >> It's Morbid [music] and we got big news
for you, baby. >> We do. We got new merch. >> Yay! >> And we actually like it. We love this
merch. >> I'm so excited. >> [laughter] >> We were >> so part of this merch. >> We were part of it. We were included.
They took all of our feedback. It was crazy. >> Yeah, it was awesome. >> We didn't have a lot of experiences like
that. >> Yeah. >> But no specifics. Just no, you know. >> In general. >> We just had We really collabed.
>> There's There's clothes, obviously. Like there's shirts, there's sweatshirts,
phone >> cases that are really high quality, might I say. >> I have one on my phone currently.
>> And yeah, I love that one. There's pillows. I love the pillows so much and everything. Like all the sweatshirts and
the t-shirts. One of the things that we told them, we said we need these to be very soft, please.
>> Yes, I want soft. >> And they're so soft. >> They are. >> So, you can go ahead and buy that on the
SiriusXM store. It's literally siriusxmstore.com. Super simple. >> Yeah. >> And if you are an international
listener, >> Lucky you. >> Lucky you. We one because we we envy you, but two because you can get our
merch, too. >> Yeah. >> have to get it at a different store. It's podswag.com. >> Yeah.
>> p o d s w a g.com. And it has all the same stuff. >> Yeah. >> Uh so, yeah. We got new merch.
>> exciting. Will there be even more to come? >> Yeah, there's more to come. We're
working on a couple things. >> It's the first little uh little drop. >> Yeah, there you go.
>> Little drip drop. >> Drip drop. >> Raindrop. Drop [laughter] top. Morbid just released merch in their chop shop.
>> [laughter] >> I I a lot. >> Thanks. >> [laughter] >> Mike on the ones and twos.
>> Obsessed. >> Um and then we're obviously still going to be at Radio City >> Still.
>> on June 27th. They haven't gotten rid of us, so they haven't decided that they
wanted to put like an actual professional up there. [laughter] >> They're still allowing us to come.
>> It's crazy. So get tickets to that. Uh get them on Ticketmaster, please, because that's the only place that we
said, "Yes, that pricing sounds good." >> Yeah, anywhere else like boop, don't know.
>> And Debbie's going to teach us a tap. >> Hell yeah. >> We actually need to order tap shoes.
>> Yeah. And it's going to be a lot of fun. It's one night only. Get your tickets.
>> Specialized merch. >> is it. >> Specialized merch for that night. Um it's going to be a lot of fun, too.
We have a fun theme that we'll let you guys know about soon. >> Mhm. >> Um and yeah.
>> Do it. >> I ordered a dress from a I won't say the site, but a sketchy site, and I just
hoped for the best. >> Oh, no. >> I got it yesterday, and it has You know like the like like we both had them on
our wedding dress, those like really pretty buttons? >> Yeah. >> It has those on the back
and also the front. They weren't supposed to be on the front. >> [laughter] >> I said, "Who is responsible for this,
and why did you send it to me?" >> control was not there. >> No, and the buttons are like not in a
row. >> [laughter] >> I was like, "What the fuck?" >> Damn. >> Yeah, so that'll be going to savers.
>> version. >> Yeah, I sure did. I was like it the dress looked great online, but I was
like, "I've never bought from here before. Like should I try it?" >> will again.
>> I will not. >> It's a Actually, it's a place you got something, though. >> Oh.
>> That was great. So it must just be like a >> miss. >> luck of the draw, yeah.
>> Yeah, some places be like that. >> They sure do. >> [laughter] >> You know. >> So now I have no idea what I'm wearing,
because the other dress from a completely different website that I ordered, which I also won't name, came
with like a chemical [ __ ] stain on it. It literally it was like tulle, and there was just like a hole in in the
tulle. >> [clears throat and laughter] >> I hate that. >> was like weirdly frayed on the edges. I
was like, >> What? >> Uh so I I got to find a reputable store. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, you do.
>> Anybody want to dress us? >> [laughter] >> Yeah, there you go. >> Gucci, I'm looking at you.
>> You're listening, right? The whole of Gucci. >> I have a couple sales associate friends.
>> There you go. >> Party. >> Let's go. >> All right, do you have anything you want
to talk about? >> Uh, you should pre-order The Butcher Legacy. >> It's coming out, too.
>> coming out as well. >> And it That's That's like the countdown is on. >> Yeah, the countdown is on. And
>> much the final countdown. >> It'll be out August 11th. Um, I you can pre-order on butcherlegacy.com. You can
get it anywhere you would like. Uh, remember if you pre-order, sometimes you get it like a day early and [ __ ] Like
it's it's a pretty fun little thing to pre-order cuz you get like some little perky perks that way. I saw people last
time with the Butcher game. They're like, I got it a day early. So, >> that's fun.
>> it before everybody else. >> fun to get things first. >> It is. There's like a fancy special
edition that you can get. There's um I don't know if there's signed copies left, but I'm trying my hardest to make
sure I can sign as many as humanly possible >> And who knows? Maybe she'll be at a
place near you and like when you >> That's the thing. I will be going to some places. I'll let you know when we
lock all those down, but I will be signing stuff. >> Hell yeah. >> Um, and trust me. I want to sign as many
as I possibly can. >> Yeah. >> Much to the chagrin of anybody that's around me while I have to sign things.
>> Not me. I don't care. [laughter] >> I was going to say cuz I think my husband's like, Jesus.
>> I just open up the pages for you if I have to. >> Yeah, there you go. >> When we're at a place, I'm like, here
you go. Sign here. >> Yeah, that's that's easy. That's easy. >> Uh, um but yeah, so I'll try to sign as
many as humanly possible. >> Um, before we get into the show, too, we met a couple of you guys in Salem and
you were so nice. >> Um, shout out to Kathy and her super cool husband. Uh, they bought us coffee.
>> Um, they were amazing. >> so nice and they were having like a little staycation in Salem. I hope you
guys had the best time. >> I loved them. >> And then we met this squad of sisters.
>> god. >> Juliana and all your sisters. >> Yes. >> Uh, Katrina? Karina? >> Karina.
>> Yep. Sorry, I'm bad with names. The baby. >> The baby who we're talking about. The
baby. >> baby, but that was might [laughter] have been one of the cutest babies I've ever
seen in my [ __ ] life. >> And the cutest dog. >> Oh my god. I think Was the dog Kato?
>> Yes. >> I loved that dog. >> Oh, you were there You were all great. >> were just on a little sister trip. I
thought that was so cute. >> Yeah. And then there was a guy on a trolley that was taking a tour of Salem
and he leaned out the window and said, "Ash and Elena?" >> So shoutout to the guy on the trolley.
>> to that guy cuz we didn't get to actually meet him, but we said, "Yeah!" We said, "Hey!"
>> And then he kept going. >> But the bus kept moving. All right. So, that I think that's everything.
>> Yeah. >> All right. >> Hell yeah. >> Um, I'm going to be talking to you about
a killer dentist today. >> Let's go. >> I don't think that's a sentence I've ever uttered before.
>> No. Definitely not. >> the story of Glennon Engleman, who I'd never heard of.
>> Glennon? >> But a Glennon, I know. >> I like that name. >> I'm just calling him Glenn for short.
>> Yeah. >> Cuz as you should. >> You know what I mean? >> Yeah. >> Dave found this one and he said, "Do you
want to do a story about a killer dentist?" And we said, "Yes." >> Hell yeah, Dave.
>> All right. So, it's It starts on the night of December 17th, 1958. So way back.
>> Oh, in the '50s. >> In the '50s, honey, but it it it rolls through time. >> Oh, it pops off.
>> Yeah. So, 27-year-old James Bullock just left home. He was headed for a night
class that he had at St. Louis University. I would love to do the whole St. Louis, St. Louis joke the whole way
through, but I have to say it a lot of times and I did Google it and apparently locals to St. Louis say it like that.
>> Okay. >> like when you say St. Louis. >> Okay. >> So, that's what I'm doing. If you happen
to be a local in St. Louis that does like when people say St. Louis, I'm sorry, but you're not the majority and I
can only strive to make so many people happy. >> Here's the thing, regional dialect is a
thing. Yeah. Reminder. And then two, we literally cannot please everybody with certain pronunciations of certain
places. >> so hard. >> No matter what we say, there is a subsection of people that get angry
about the pronunciation. So, we just got to pick one and go with it. >> on several websites and it said say
Saint Louis if you're talking to Saint Louis people. >> know what? There's bigger problems in
the world bigger than Saint Louis or Saint Louis >> It's true. >> being pronounced one way or the other.
>> It's true. >> reminder. >> Thank you. >> You're welcome. >> So thank you for having my back on that. Yeah.
>> there's bigger problems. >> So James was headed to his night class at Saint Louis University, but the next
time anybody saw him, he was being chased through the city by an unidentified gunman.
>> What the [ __ ] That escalated so quickly. >> Wildly, exponentially. >> Yeah, it's about to escalate even more
because a little past 7:30 p.m., Paulie Tullio was driving on Fine Arts Drive near the City Art Museum when he came
upon a very unexpected sight in the middle of the road. Illuminated by his headlights, he said he saw a quote
stockily built man wearing a brown hat and a dark topcoat standing over another man on the ground pointing a gun at him.
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. When the lights of the car crossed over the stocky man, he fled down a side
street and just disappeared into the night. >> And this is 7:30 at night? >> Yes, a little past 7:30.
So just as Tullio got out of the car, another passerby, Dan Holmes, stopped and both of them ran to see if they
could help the man lying in the middle of the street. And when it was clear that he was badly injured, Dan ran to
the Art Museum to find a guard to call the police. He was still breathing when he was discovered in the streets by the
two drivers, but James Bullet couldn't speak and he died just as he was being loaded into the ambulance.
>> He was young. >> Very young. Now as the closest officers to the scene when the call came in, detectives John
Vining and Phil Dwyer were dispatched to the Art Museum and they were stunned by
the condition of this victim. By the time they arrived, James was a bloody mess. He had two bullet holes in his
head and one in his shoulder. And in addition to the two small caliber bullet wounds in his head, there were
also six tiny wounds in his chest, which suggested that he'd been shot by a shotgun. Holy [ __ ] And it also looked
like somebody had struck him with their car and run over both of his legs. >> god. Like talk about overkill. This poor
man. >> A quick search of his body produced his wallet, which still had a $20 bill
inside, and he was wearing his gold wedding ring. So the detectives were like, "Okay, this doesn't really seem
like a robbery, but what the [ __ ] is this?" Now, just behind the art museum, they
were able to locate his green Plymouth, and the driver's side door was still open, and the car was actually still
running. Inside, they did find blood evidence, so that suggested that he had been shot one
time inside the car and then was able to he got out on foot and ran in the direction of where he was found on the
street. And there was literally a blood trail in the snow from the car to the road.
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. Other than the blood in the car and his body on the street though, there really
didn't seem to be any additional evidence. And remember, this is the '50s, so like there's not a whole bunch that
they're doing at that crime scene. >> But the most puzzling thing to the detectives were the three distinctly
different injuries that he had suffered. Whoever shot him in the head and shoulder was obviously or at least most
likely the same person who shot him in the chest, but they weren't sure yet if it was the same person that had run over
his legs or if that happened afterwards and maybe it was an accident or something like that.
>> So they hoped that his family could provide some insight into what had happened here, and they started with his
wife of only 6 months, Ruth. >> Ugh. >> I know. Not wanting to shock her or imply
anything super nefarious, they just said that James had been killed in an accident and they left out a lot of
details. According to Ruth, he occasionally drove through Forest Park on his way to the
university, so that's why he was in that area that night. But unfortunately, other than that, there wasn't a lot that
she could tell them. So rather than subject her to the horrible state that her husband's body was in, the
identification was done by James's aunt Geraldine, who had been taking care of him since he was young because both of
his parents had died. >> Aw. >> It's such a tragic situation. >> And it's like which is worse?
>> I know. Oh my goodness. Now the next morning when the news about the murder hit the papers, a man named
Lester Rodwald came forward and he told police that he was the one who had run over James's legs accidentally.
>> According to him, he said he was on his way home from classes at the university
and as he drove around the corner, he saw a man standing in the road waving his arms. But by the time he processed
what was happening, it was too late to hit the brakes and even though he tried to swerve to avoid hit avoid hitting
James, he still fell and that was when Rodwald ran over his legs. >> Oh man. >> Yeah. It was clear that obviously he
should have reported this when it happened. >> Uh yeah. You should always report that.
>> Yeah, but it was an accident and he was ruled out as a suspect. >> Okay. >> Now uh Lewis Gola who had been driving a
few yards behind Rodwald that evening confirmed the story too. He said he also saw that man waving his hands in what he
thought was an attempt to flag somebody down. And he said he also caught a glimpse of
a second man who either appeared to be with Bullock or chasing him. He wasn't quite sure.
Which I was like I feel like that's a pretty clear distinction. >> Yeah. >> Uh but I don't know.
He said the man was of average height. He was wearing an old trench coat and a hat and it was pretty difficult to
describe his appearance other than that. >> Hm. >> As he passed the two men though, Gola
said that it appeared the second man was saying something to James, but he couldn't make out the words and he did
notice that the man had what looked like blood on his face and in his hand he was
either holding a gun or a club. >> Wow. >> Most likely a gun given what we know.
>> Yeah. >> Now aside from a few witnesses who had seen the second man, there was also a
report of a strange uh strange incident that occurred shortly before James was killed. Jerry Wilmering who was parked
by the school with his girlfriend just about two hours before the shooting, he told police that a man ran up to
their car out of the darkness and out of just like nowhere and tried to get into
the vehicle >> Oh [ __ ] that. >> shouting I'm not the one I'm not the one. Yeah, I'm not the one either.
You're not getting in [clears throat] this car. >> That's what I said. >> [laughter]
>> what Jerry told the man. He got out of the car and they kind of just like fought briefly before the man ended up
running away and Jerry and his girlfriend just drove home like what the [ __ ] just [laughter] happened.
>> Cuz Jerry the one. >> Jerry is not the one. >> Yeah. >> So with not much else to go on, the
detectives turned their attention back to Ruth Bullock hoping that she might be able to fill in any kind of the missing
information. And according to her, the couple had met about 9 months earlier. They dated for a pretty short
time, only 3 months and then they were married. But she insisted they had no marital
problems and they were absolutely happy, she said. She couldn't think of any reason why somebody would have wanted
her husband dead and she couldn't think of anybody who he'd even fought with recently or had any kind of issue with
at all. >> Damn. >> Now at first she seemed every bit the devastated new wife that you would
expect in this situation. >> Huh. >> But the more investigators spoke with her, the more complicated the entire
picture of their life together got. >> Oh. >> Because it turned out that Ruth had
previously been been married to Dr. Glenn Engelman, a dentist that she met while he was still in dental school.
They were married in 1953, but there were problems in that relationship from the start. The biggest thing being that
I don't know why this is coming up so often in stories lately. Although he was a married adult man, he
refused to move out of the home that he shared with his mother. >> Is this like an epidemic?
>> I think it might be. It's like the male loneliness epidemic, but it's like the
male loves his mama too much epidemic. [laughter] >> Like what is going on? >> Now not only would he not move out of
the house that he shared with his mom, but he also wouldn't let Ruth move in with them.
>> Okay. >> Which is weird. So instead, Ruth just like shared an apartment with several other young women
who she was in dental school with and she and her husband would see each other at night and then just go their separate
ways. >> My stomach >> Even your stomach was upset about [laughter] that. >> just was like, "No." [clears throat]
"Absolutely not." >> Your stomach said, >> [laughter] >> So, after it I I After about 3 years, Ruth had had
enough of this, and >> Yeah. >> they divorced. Uh she insisted that they parted on good terms. In fact,
>> Since nothing changed really. >> Yeah, honestly. >> We were living together to begin with."
>> Well, that's the thing. She actually still continued to see him pretty regularly.
>> Oh. >> He cleaned her teeth still. Sometimes he gave her money, and they occasionally
slept together. So, it was pretty much just like their marriage, but it just wasn't official
anymore. >> Okay. >> Um he also even cleaned her new husband's teeth just a few weeks
earlier. >> This is getting really weird. >> Imagine your new husband your your old
husband cleaning your new husband's teeth. Like, that's a little bit messy. >> No.
>> Kind of giving Reba. >> It >> You know what I mean? I love that show. >> Single mom who works too hard.
>> Loves her kids and never stops. >> [laughter] >> So, Ruth offered this information up
freely to the detectives. Like, she was like, "Yeah, I still slept with my ex-husband like from time to time. And
like, him and my new husband got along. Cleaned his teeth." >> Okay. >> I don't know if James knew that she was
still sleeping with her ex, but >> Yeah. >> Uh so, everything she told them was shocking and pretty scandalous. Even
now, that would be shocking and scandalous, but again, mind you, this is the 1950s.
>> Yeah. >> And even to hardened detectives, they were like, "What the [ __ ] is your
[laughter] arrangement?" >> They were like, "What's going on?" >> But, she took a polygraph exam, and she
passed it. So, they were like, "Okay." >> Those are scientific, so >> Yeah, back then they were like, "Oh,
shit." >> They were like, "Oh, yeah, that's it." >> That's it." So, under the circumstances, they
thought it was worthwhile to track down Glenn Engelman for an interview. >> I would say so.
>> Yeah, cuz I mean, he's still intimately involved with Ruth even after their divorce. Maybe he wanted to get rid of
her new husband and rekindle their romance. >> Yeah, so he could continue living at
mom's house and date his wife. >> Maybe he wanted to change that up a little, or who knows. Unfortunately,
though, when they did catch up with him, he would not talk to them. No. Yeah. Uh
at a later corner >> said no. >> His mommy probably did say no. I actually don't really know anything
about his mommy, but other than two small children who are disappointed. [laughter]
>> I know enough. >> Well, at a later corner in quest, he said, "As a result of advice I have been
given by my counsel, I feel I may incriminate myself." >> Oof. >> Joe's like, "Why?"
>> I'm like, "Wow, that's >> It's not guilty talk at all." Yeah. >> So, that made him look pretty [ __ ]
suspicious, but >> Yeah. >> apparently, he did have an alibi. >> Well, [ __ ] >> Thomas Johnson, a friend of his, told
detectives that he visited Engelman at his office around 7:15 p.m. on the night of the murder. So, like
I mean, he was discovered right around that time James was. Yeah. >> He said the two had stayed at the office
until around 9:00 p.m. just chatting, and they also went to a local drugstore to get a drink, and they were seen by
the pharmacist at the store. >> And you got to trust Tommy Johnson. >> Yeah, of course. I I do trust Tommy
Johnson. >> But that being the case, it would have been impossible for Engelman to have
been involved in this murder, right? Right. So, it seemed that every time detectives thought that they found
something that might lead them to the killer, every lead was quickly falling apart. So, with no new evidence and no
new leads to work from, they went back to James's personal history, hoping maybe there was something there to point
to the killer. But once they started digging into his past, it was pretty clear that he wasn't somebody that you
would necessarily expect to get murdered. His supervisors at Union Electric described him as an industrious
and conscientious worker. They said he was moving ahead in his career quickly due to his hard work and drive to
succeed. >> Aw, James. >> And his friends were just as shocked. According to his friend Ed Lugie, there
was something about him that made you want to do your best to help him. >> Aw, that's heartbreaking.
>> He had such a tragic story. As a kid, he had already gone through a lot. First,
he experienced a physical disability that required multiple surgeries when he was young.
And then his parents were both killed in a tragic accident when he was a teenager. Yeah. So that along with his
personality just endeared him to people and everybody who knew him best was very, very protective of him.
>> Yeah. So there was absolutely nothing to go on here. So the case was in danger of
growing cold and being shelved when in 1959 a St. Louis lawyer contacted police and told them that he might know who
killed James Bullock. According to the lawyer, his client Thomas Murphy had confessed to him that he and another
man, Ivan Deckard, had been hired by and Ruth Bullock >> Oh, Ruth. >> to kill James.
>> Jesus. >> Now when detectives looked into Murphy and Deckard's backgrounds, it did turn
out that both of them had been in prison for murder and they were only recently paroled when James Bullock was killed.
>> Yikes. >> Yeah. In an interview with investigators, Murphy said that he'd just been paroled on December 1st, 1958
when an acquaintance asked him whether he would be interested in taking a hit job.
Fresh out of prison. >> got out. >> And he said, "Yeah." >> Yeah. >> And soon he was put in touch with Glenn
Engelman and his ex-wife who offered uh $12,500 which would be about 150k today >> Whoa.
>> for the murder and they all worked out the details. So the story definitely it seemed
plausible and detectives did even manage to verify some of the details that were
provided like having met with Ruth and Engelman in certain locations to discuss the plan.
>> Blake. >> They had also always suspected though that Engelman was involved in the murder
but he had that alibi that ruled him out as the killer. So this new version of events did make sense. They were like,
"Okay, this is how that could have worked out." >> how he was involved. >> But there was a problem. Murphy changed
his account of things not that long after his first confession. Literally just days later he said that sure I was
involved in the conspiracy but I didn't do the actual killing and I'm not sure who did.
>> Oh, there you go. >> It's like, pull it back. >> What? >> Pull it back down. >> Ivan Decker, the man who he originally
said he did everything with, was just as unreliable and his details changed all the time, too. Now, the other issue was
that by the time investigators had caught up with Ivan Decker, the second man involved, he was already in jail for
a robbery where two police officers had been shot. >> My god. [clears throat] >> And Ivan's partner in the robbery had
also been killed. >> Holy [ __ ] >> So, he was facing very serious charges for the robbery and the shootings, and
it was clear to the detectives that he was hoping to use what he knew about the James Bullet case as a bargaining chip
>> Oh, >> a lighter sentence. So, it's all super messy now. >> Yeah. >> So, because of all the inconsistencies
and just the straight-up mess, they were looked at as unreliable witnesses, and the prosecutor declined
to bring the case to a grand jury. >> Oof. >> So, now with their best lead having
fallen apart and nothing new to go on, the detectives just had to shift their attention to more pressing matters.
Now, in the years after James's death, Ruth eventually collected a very large insurance payout from his life
insurance. And she kind of just went about her life. When the judge gave his ruling in the insurance case, he said,
"The death officially remains a mystery, and whether the mystery will be solved to the satisfaction of the state
criminal law is another mystery in and of itself." >> Well, then. >> He said "same mystery" again.
>> He said "mystery". >> Now, meanwhile, just continued growing his dental practice in St. Louis.
>> Oh, good. >> He got married a second time to a woman named Edna. >> All right.
>> They seemed to live a quiet life, but behind closed doors, everything was very
awful. He was having extramarital affairs, he would fly into violent rages at any kind of inconvenience, and he was
always directing his anger and his violence at Edna. Things finally came to a head in 1965
and the marriage broke down completely when Engelman literally threw her out of the house, like physically threw her out
of the >> his mom's house? >> Probably. Who Who even knows? >> like such a loser.
>> He is a loser. So, he physically threw her out of the house and then just tossed all her
luggage and everything that belonged to her out at her as she was just trying to
get out of there. Later, Edna would tell her brother that was just the last of many violent
altercations that she experienced with Glenn. And at one time, she said he even tried to kill her with an overdose of
barbiturates. >> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. Eventually, within a decade or so, the activities of Glenn would have be of
interest to a great many people. But until then, he was just another suspect in a case that sadly a lot of people had
forgotten about by then. But then, on the afternoon of September 5th, 1976, a woman named Carmen Holm and
her husband Peter, they were on their way to a car show in Pacific, Missouri, when at some point they stopped paying
attention and finally realized that they'd driven past their destination. According to Carmen, rather than just
turn around and go back, Peter said that he wanted to stop by a state park to check out some of the local caves.
So they parked their car and they started walking to the woods in the direction of the caves. They stopped
briefly just to talk at a little pond taking in the scenery, just, you know, having a nice little afternoon hike.
But then suddenly there was a loud bang and Peter fell to the ground bleeding out of absolutely nowhere.
>> What? >> So Carmen screamed and ran and back in the direction of the car. And a local
family heard her screaming and ran to help and they flagged down a car and somebody got the police. In her eventual
statement to the police, Carmen explained that she and her husband had been out for a walk, stopped briefly,
and Peter was suddenly shot. But she didn't see or hear anyone else around them at the time.
>> What? That's so scary. >> Yeah, like sniper kind of stuff. >> Yeah. >> By the time they made it to the
hospital, 26-year-old Peter was dead from a single gunshot wound. >> Holy [ __ ] that is young.
>> Yeah. Now back at the park, crime scene technicians searched around the woods
and found a 6-mm hunting rifle with a telescopic sight buried under a large pile of leaves just about 50 yards from
where Peter had been discovered. They found one spent cartridge on the ground and it had obviously been
discharged from the chamber. And the bullet itself had gone through Peter's body, so they didn't have that to match
with the gun, but the caliber matched the wound. So, it seemed that that was the rifle used. And the fact that there
was a rifle buried like 50 yards away. Yeah, exactly. So, in a press conference with
reporters, lead detective George Ice urged journalists not to jump to conclusions about the death. According
to Ice, there was a strong possibility that the shooting was accidental. He said, "For example, it could have
been a hunter who accidentally fired his weapon and then ran once he realized what he'd done."
>> Okay, I mean, that's valid. Cuz at first when I read that, I was like, "What the
what the [ __ ] are >> you talking about?" But then with that example, it's like, "Okay, maybe."
But still, he did encourage anybody who'd been in the area that day to contact police whether they had seen or
heard anything. He just wanted to hear from people in the area. Unfortunately, while several people did
come forward and they gave statements to the police, none of them had actually seen Peter get shot, and nobody had
really anything of value. >> Mhm. >> Peter's parents even offered a thousand-dollar reward for information
leading to the arrest, but the trail still went cold, and the case became inactive.
>> Now, if the case had happened in St. Louis, detectives might have noticed that there were some similar aspects to
the James Bullet case. Peter and his wife hadn't been married for very long when Peter was murdered. And Peter had
recently taken out a life insurance policy with much more coverage than most people his age.
>> Mhm. >> And his wife was the sole beneficiary. >> Oh, no. >> Yeah. But most importantly, just like
Ruth Bullock, Carmen Holm had a connection to Dr. Glenn Engelman. >> What are the odds?
>> Not only had she worked for him as a dental assistant, excuse me, in the recent past, but she had also known him
for decades, and her brother Nick was still very close friends with him. >> Oh, no.
>> Yeah. Now, unfortunately though, Peter Helm's death did not occur in St. Louis, so
investigators had no reason to suspect Carmen of her husband's death or a random dentist who lived 40 miles from
the crime scene. [clears throat] >> So, nobody challenged her when she filed paperwork for a claim on the insurance
policy, and just a few months after the death, she received $60,000, which today is about $350,000.
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. So, a little We're moving forward here. A little past 7:30 on November November
3rd, 1977, a Bell telephone operator got a call from a man who didn't give his name, and
she could barely understand him. As far as she could tell, the man and just needed an ambulance. She managed to get
the address before the man on the other end just dropped the phone, and the ambulance was
dispatched to the house of Arthur and Venita Gussewelle. When the ambulance arrived at the remote
farmhouse just outside of Edwardsville, it was clear that this was not an ordinary medical emergency. The front of
the house was completely dark, and the door was locked, so paramedics went around back, where they found the door
to the kitchen unlocked. Inside, laying face down on the floor, was 55-year-old Venita, and she was dead.
With three gunshot wounds to her head. >> What is going on? >> In the living room adjacent to the
kitchen, paramedics found her husband, 61-year-old Arthur, just sitting in his reclining chair.
>> Aw. >> He was bleeding heavily from a gunshot wound to the back of his head, but he
was still conscious, and seemed to be mumbling something softly. >> god. >> When the paramedics got close to check
his injuries, they heard him say, "I've been shot and robbed. I can't see. I've been shot and robbed. My wife has been
hurt. She needs an ambulance. I can't see. I need an ambulance." >> Oh, that's so sad.
>> And then he lost consciousness. >> Aw. >> And as he was carried out to the ambulance, he briefly regained
consciousness, though, and he muttered the word two over and over a few times before just passing out again.
>> Oh, man. >> Yeah. Unfortunately, by the time they made it to Anderson Hospital a short
time later, there was nothing that they could do to save Arthur, and he was pronounced dead at 9:30 p.m.
>> Oh, Arthur. >> I know. Now, when they arrived at the scene that night, investigators from the Illinois
Department of Law Enforcement suspected a robbery gone wrong. Arthur clearly said they'd been robbed, and from the
sound of it, there had been two men. That's kind of what they thought the two two two was.
>> Yeah. >> It also seemed that someone had torn through the house in a hurry, but the
longer that investigators were looking at the scene as a whole, the less sense that theory made.
>> Yeah. >> Detective Richard Beretta said, "Parts of the house were ransacked, but parts
weren't. That's an oddity." In fact, not only did it seem that nothing of significance was missing from
the house, but when Vernita's body was taken to the morgue, she was still wearing a ton of jewelry, including
rings and a watch. >> Giveaway. >> And her purse was lying in the hallway not far from her body, and everything
inside was still intact. >> Yeah, that's not a robbery. >> And there was also no sign of forced
entry. >> Oh. >> So, yeah. When the autopsy was conducted though, the coroner determined a small-caliber
weapon had been used in both of the murders, and the uh there were powder burns on the victim's that indicated
that the shooter obviously fired at very close range. The crime was not only extremely out of
the ordinary for the region, but it was also extremely brutal given the ages and
the personalities of both victims. >> Mhm. >> The secretary of their church, Mary uh
Jaegle, told reporters, "They were just lovely people. They didn't have any enemies. I'm sure they didn't."
>> Oh. >> And their neighbors echoed the same sentiment, with one saying, "There was
not anyone in the community who would say anything negative about them." >> Arthur and Vernita.
>> I know, don't they just sound so sweet? >> do. >> They're just like managing their farm
together. >> Yeah. >> Now, a search of the house and of the surrounding property again, didn't
really turn up anything useful in the investigation. There was no fingerprints and no other evidence found at the
scene. One of the neighbors, Clarence O'Brien, though, did tell detectives that his wife had seen a car uh car pull
up at the house around 6:00 p.m. and drive around the outbuildings in the back. But, he also said that Arthur and
Vernita's two sons, Richard and Ronald, came by pretty often to visit or help their parents, so they just thought it
was one of them just coming to stop by. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Right. In addition to everything
investigators were learning, they also found out that everyone who knew the couple knew they were unlikely targets
for a robbery because Arthur was known to be a successful farmer at the time, and he was one of the wealthier
residents in the area, but he paid for everything, even just small purchases, with checks, and he never had cash in
the house. And >> like you're not going to find anything. >> That's the thing, it was like well-known
amongst the community. Now, at the time, there was no way local investigators would have connected the
murders of Arthur and Vernita Gooswell to two other seemingly unrelated murders years earlier.
It also somehow didn't occur to any of them that the Gooswells' injuries resembled the execution-style killings
common in mob-related murders, like point-blank range back of the head. >> Yeah.
>> Those connections would come a lot later to everybody's shock and horror. But until then, the case was treated as
a straightforward, yet kind of pretty rare instance of a home invasion gone wrong.
>> Damn. >> Now, in hope of generating some leads, the Madison County Farm Bureau offered a
$5,000 reward for any information leading to the arrest of the killers. But other than some pranks from
true-blue [ __ ] >> believe we've always been this shitty as a species. >> Even back then.
>> can't believe it. We've just never got better. >> No, we just got a little different.
Exactly. Exactly. >> Different methods. >> Other than that, the the reward did not
produce any concrete leads. So, while detectives on the Gooswell case spun their wheels, just desperately
trying to find anything that would lead them to the killer, the Gooswells' estate, which was valued at roughly half
a million dollars back then, which today would be about 2.5 million, it got tied
up in probate court for a little over a year before it was finally everything was finally split evenly between Richard
and Ronald Gooswell in late 1978. >> Okay. >> Now, by the time their estate was awarded to their two children,
the murder case had been shelved, and detectives on the case shifted their attention again to more present active
cases. But then in April 7th 1979, just 1 year later, the case was unexpectedly revived when one of Arthur and Vernita's
children, 33-year-old Ronald, was found dead in the backseat of his own car in East St. Louis.
>> Oh, we're back in St. Louis. >> On the evening of April 4th, police were called to the parking lot of Coleman's
Plaza in St. Louis for a report of a suspicious vehicle that had been in the lot for several days. Now, when they
arrived and they checked out the car, they found Ronald slumped in the backseat with a huge bullet hole in his
chest. >> Upon examination, the coroner determined that his body had been in the lot for at
least several days. And while the gunshot wound in his chest was the cause of death, he also suffered
a skull fracture from a blunt force injury. And there were also several scratches
along his back, which the coroner believed had been caused by the body being dragged.
>> What? >> Yeah. Now, given the fact that his parents had also been murdered, Ronald's murder was
immediately assumed to be linked. At the time of his death, the investigation into his parents' death,
like I said, was at a standstill after everybody ran out of leads. So, the working theory was that Arthur and his
wife were mistaken for another unrelated man, Richard Gusewell, like unrelated, who investigators believed was targeted
by the mafia after he testified in a case involving mining rights. So, that's what they originally thought before
Ronald was killed. >> Damn. >> Because it seemed mistaken identity in that case seemed plausible.
>> Yeah. >> But now Ronald's murder called that into question because obviously one case of
mistaken identity is possible. >> But two is like >> Well, and like why would somebody go
back and kill the previous mistaken victim's son? It doesn't make sense. >> According to his wife, Barbara, Ronald
was last seen by his coworkers at the Amoco oil refinery on March 31st around 11:30 p.m. They apparently chatted
briefly in the locker room as Ronald was headed home, but when he still hadn't returned home 4 hours later, Barbara
reported him missing. When his body was discovered, his wallet also appeared to be missing, but there was no other
evidence collected at the scene and there was not a single witness. >> Oh, [ __ ]
>> Now, later that month, a man named Andre Jones confessed to killing Ronald Gusewelle.
>> Oh. >> He had been arrested and pleaded guilty to the murder of three people in uh in
East St. Louis and he was awaiting sentencing when he made his confession here. And he also confessed to the
brutal murder and robbery of a young couple earlier that same month. >> The [ __ ]
>> He was facing the death penalty in the robbery homicide and it's likely that he
offered up the other confessions to try to get a lighter sentence. >> Oh, okay. >> But just like in the other cases, if
detectives had been aware of the connections between the victims and a certain St. Louis dentist,
>> Oh my god. >> the murder of Ronald Gusewelle and his parents might have made a lot more
sense. But they had no way of knowing that Ronald's wife, Barbara, had known Glenn
for nearly 20 years. >> What is going on? >> And like the others, Engelman offered up
a way to help her get access to the Gusewelle's money a lot faster than just waiting for nature to take its course.
>> Ladies. >> They didn't know that. >> Oh, no. >> So, instead, detectives focused on Andre
Jones and started looking for evidence that confirmed his confession. Now, back to Glenn Engelman.
>> Yeah. >> By the late '70s, he was on his third marriage to Ruth Jolly and things were
starting to fall apart. Engelman was just as abusive to her as he had been to his previous wives and Ruth tried
several times to leave him, but he wouldn't agree to a divorce and at that time, it would have been pretty
impossible for her to strike out on her own and maintain the same life. And she had a young son as well. So, she
tried to stick with it, but sometimes her husband said things that absolutely terrified her.
He talked about killing people or having people killed. His ex-wife's new husband
outside the art museum in St. Louis, he said, "A man in the woods outside Pacific,
>> Ooh. >> and even three members of a family in Edwardsville." >> Ooh. >> Any of that sound familiar to you?
>> Sure does. >> The thing was though, these stories always seemed to involve women that
Glenn had been involved with romantically in his past, and Ruth started to wonder if he had maybe been
having an affair throughout their marriage or multiple affairs. >> Probably. >> But unfortunately, it was even worse. He
probably was having affairs, but I think that there was more to it. >> worse [ __ ]
>> Exactly. Now, in the late afternoon of January 14th, 1980, a woman named Sophie
Marie Bergera left her dental laboratory a little before 5:00 p.m. It was a pretty ordinary day as far as
anybody could tell, except this afternoon when she put her key in the ignition and turned it to start the car,
the car exploded into a ball of flames, instantly killing Sophie in the blast and shattering the windows of the
surrounding buildings. >> Oh. >> When emergency responders arrived a short time later, they there was no
attempt made to save Sophie because according to Sergeant Thomas Casey of the bomb squad, the lower part of her
anatomy was destroyed. >> Holy [ __ ] >> killed instantly. Her death was a surprise to everybody
she knew to say the absolute least, but when detectives arrived at the lab that afternoon to start their investigation,
eerily, it seemed like Sophie had expected something like this might happen to her.
>> What? >> Sitting by the phone in her office, detectives found a pad with the police
emergency number written down on it, and call logs would later reveal that she called that number earlier in the day,
but had hung up. >> Ooh. >> Yeah. Also, her son Frederick told investigators that his mother had said
something a few days earlier indicating she thought she might die in an explosion.
>> What the [ __ ] >> In fact, in March of the previous year, police had been called to her home when
she found a bag full of dynamite and an electric detonator beside her home. >> What?
>> Earlier that day, a local boy had seen the bag and opened it up to look inside.
And when he didn't find anything that was interested in it interested him, he walked away. And he left the bag open,
which luckily exposed it to rain. So, when the bag did explode a short time later, it just scorched the outside of
the garage, but it didn't It could have absolutely blew up the house. >> Absolutely.
>> Now, it was quickly determined that the bomb placed in Sophie's car was very similar to the one that had been found
at her home just a year earlier. And that both were created by the same person. And both devices demonstrated a
quote, "apparent high level of skill." >> Holy [ __ ] >> Yeah. So, when detectives looked back at the
earlier investigation into the bomb at the house, they concluded that Sophie may have known her killer and maybe
hadn't been entirely forthcoming in previous interviews. Thomas Casey said, "Personally, I
thought there was more she could reveal. A lot of innuendos were made on her part, but we were unable to substantiate
a lot of them. I think out of fear. I think she was scared. Now, as you might imagine, she had a
connection to a certain dentist in the area. >> say. >> At the time of her death, she was
involved in a lawsuit with local dentist Glenn Engelman. >> Oh, Jesus. >> He owed her a little over $14,000 for
work that was performed by her lab, and he was refusing to pay it. >> He's such a piece of [ __ ]
>> He really is. Also, look up a picture. >> Oh, yeah. >> On the night of her murder, detectives
interviewed Engelman for more than 3 hours, but told reporters that they weren't seeking warrants for his arrest
at that time. They did indicate that he refused to take a polygraph, though, and
that they were planning on following up with him in the days that followed. It doesn't he look exactly like you
thought? >> No, actually. >> Worse? >> Way worse. >> Really? >> Because I'm thinking like he's getting
all these women to do things and like having affairs and marrying several women.
>> Yeah. >> What? What? >> Yeah, I think money had a lot to do with a lot of this.
>> Wow. >> I think lot of it was just money, money, money. >> Yeah. >> Now, as far as Sophie's son was
concerned, his mother's death likely had something to do with the lawsuit against
Engelman, which was scheduled to be heard in county circuit court days after Sophie was killed.
>> Holy [ __ ] >> Now, not long after the murder of Sophie Barrera, Ruth Jolly, Glenn's wife at the
time, finally came to the conclusion that all of the things her husband had told her about the previous murders were
very likely true. So, in late January, after becoming frightened for not only her own safety,
but her son's, Ruth went to the police and she told them about everything she suspected her husband to be involved in.
>> Not only did she think Glenn murdered Sophie, but she also believed that he had killed Peter Holm and several other
people. >> He is so scary. >> He's terrifying. Now, at first, federal investigators were kind of skeptical of
her story, but at the same time, they had to admit she did seem to know a lot of details, a lot more than the ordinary
person. So, they asked her if she would be willing to wear a wire and record her
conversations with her husband. And she agreed. Which like >> Yeah. >> That's so brave.
>> to say that yeah, that really is. >> a scary situation to get yourself into or to have to be involved in.
Now, to investigators' surprise, the recordings not only implicated uh Glenn Engelman in the murder of Sophie
Barrera, but also in the murders of Peter Holm, the three members of the Gusubal family, and the 1963 death of a
man named Eric Frey, whose death had previously been ruled accidental. >> What? >> other death here.
>> other person. >> In one recording, Engelman can be heard saying, "I'm $20,000 ahead. Fortuitous
event with Barrera dying." Referring to him not having to pay Lapta anymore. >> Fortuitous event
>> with Barrera dying. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Now, in another conversation recorded just a few days later, he was heard
openly discussing the death of Peter Holm. On the recording, he doesn't just implicate himself, but all also Peter's
wife, Carmen. I'm glad she got connected finally. >> Yeah. >> Ruth later clarified that Glenn had
conspired with Carmen and her brother, Nick, to kill Peter for insurance money. >> Ew.
>> Ruth told investigators Carmen was going to give Glenn Engelman $20,000 for his
help. >> This is so gross. >> is, cuz it's all just about money. >> Yeah. >> Now, in time, the recorded conversations
between Ruth and Glenn would verify nearly every single detail of Ruth's original story.
>> Wow. >> Just like he had done in the murder of Peter Holm, Glenn Engelman had conspired
with Barbara Boyle in the murder of Arthur, Vernita, and Ronald Gusewelle also she could get her hands on the
inheritance. >> Wow. She had an entire family killed? >> She did. >> Yep. In order for the money to make its
way to Ronald, Arthur and Vernita needed to die first. >> Holy [ __ ] >> And as far as murder-for-hire schemes
went, it was remarkably elaborate and unfolded over much more time than things usually did. But in the end, it paid off
because Barbara inherited more than $500,000, which today would be 2.2 million. >> Wow, what a nasty [ __ ]
>> Right. So, to investigators on the Sophie Barrera case, not only were the recordings incredible, but they also
seemed to close several previously unsolved murders in various parts of Missouri. The only question remaining
was, why would a successful dentist who never appeared to be in need of money willingly and eagerly participate in
multiple murders? >> Yeah. >> Now, based on >> Like, why would you want to be involved
in that? But based on the recordings and testimony from Ruth in mid-February 1980, federal agents were able to
finally get an arrest for Glenn Engelman on charges of murdering just Sophie Barrera and Peter Holm. By that time, he
was very suspicious that investigators were on to him, especially for the murder of Sophie, and they didn't want
to give him any opportunity to run. Now, at the same time, they also arrested one
of his co-conspirators in the Barrera killing, a a named Robert Handy, who was a former neighbor of Glenn's in the '60s
and known to police for multiple prior counterfeiting arrests, just like a local con.
>> Why are you living these lives? >> Who knows? As detectives continued matching the details of Ruth Jolly's
statement and the recordings to the unsolved murders, things finally started to fall into place. So, get ready to
solve this giant puzzle at this point. >> go. >> So, Glenn Engelman was Ruth Bullock's
ex-husband, the original Ruth. >> Yeah. >> And the two were still having that sexual relationship when James Bullock
was murdered in 1958 and Ruth was awarded the insurance payout. Eric Frey, one murder that we hadn't talked about
yet because they just discovered that he was involved. He owned a drag strip with
Glenn Engelman at the time of his death, which was originally thought to be an accidental explosion in a well at the
strip in 1963. >> Stop. >> Eric's wife received a huge insurance payout for the accident and it was later
discovered that she shared that payout with Glenn Engelman. >> What the [ __ ] >> Now, at the time of Eric Frey's death,
Nick Miranda worked at that same drag strip and his sister, Carmen, >> Oh. >> would later work for Glenn Engelman as a
dental assistant before leaving the job and marrying Peter Holm. >> Wow. >> In every single case, pretty much, Engel
had a direct connection to the wives of the victims and it would turn out benefited financially from the deaths.
They would always split the insurance payout. >> So, was her name Carmen Miranda?
>> It was. >> That's a famous singer. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Sorry about that. That just I I I had to
double-check that to make sure I wasn't crazy for thinking >> name, yeah. She was Carmen Holm. Yeah.
>> That's crazy. >> Before she killed her husband or after she killed her husband.
The only outlier in that respect, like of him knowing all the wives and benefiting from the insurance payout,
was Sophie Barrera, but obviously in that case, his death was essentially wiped away. He didn't have to go to
court. So, on March 15th, 1980, Glenn Engelman Robert Handy were indicted on capital
murder charges in the bombing death of Sophie uh, Sophie Barrera. First-degree murder for the shooting of Peter Helm,
uh, Holm, excuse me, and 16 counts of mail and wire fraud related to all the money received from Peter Holm's wife,
Carmen. >> Holy [ __ ] >> At the time of the indictment, Missouri's death penalty was on hold,
uh, pending uh, revisions. So, the maximum penalty for the Holm's murder, uh, for Holm's murder, excuse me, was
life in prison. But, the Sophie Barrera case, on the other hand, was a federal charge,
>> Yeah. >> and the maximum penalty for capital murder was death, which the federal
prosecutor fully intended to pursue. >> Yeah. >> Now, Engelman pleaded not guilty to the
charges and went to trial in the fall of 1980. Unfortunately for him, the evidence
against him, especially the records made by his wife, >> Yeah. >> without his knowledge,
>> Ruth. >> and the eventual testimony of Carmen Holm, who testified against him,
>> What? >> all particularly damning. I She had to to get her own ass out of it.
Now, on September 17th, he was found guilty of the murder of Peter Holm and sentenced to 30 years in prison. And a
month later, he was found guilty of the Sophie Barrera murder and sentenced to 30 years with an additional 20 for
various other charges. So, that [ __ ] was going to spend forever in prison. >> But, he was still facing a potential
trial for the murders of Arthur, Vernita, and Ronald Gusewelle, and a possible death sentence if he lost that
trial. He eventually decided not to take the risk, and in 1985, he just pleaded guilty to all three of those murder, uh,
murders, excuse me, and he was given three life sentences. >> Damn. >> Now, the previous year, federal
prosecutors arrested Ronald Gusewelle's wife, Barbara Boyle, just days before she and her boyfriend were planning to
flee the country. >> Oh, man, the timing. >> She went to trial and was ultimately
found guilty of conspiring in the death of her husband. >> Hey. >> But, the jury determined there was
insufficient evidence to convict her of the deaths of Arthur and Vernita. >> Wow.
>> She did, however, serve 25 years in prison, but was paroled in 2009. >> Damn.
>> Yeah. So, Glennon Engelman obviously appealed to his guilty verdicts. They always do. Uh specifically in the
Barrera and the Hall murder cases, but the higher courts upheld the lower courts' rulings, luckily. Unfortunately,
while Detective Strongly and uh suspected Angleman of being the shooter in the James Bullet case, the District
Attorney in 1985 didn't feel that there was enough evidence to charge him and bring him to trial.
>> Come on. >> I know. They They just didn't think that they would win. But, he did spend the
rest of his life in prison. He died on March 3rd, 1999 in the infirmary of the Jefferson City Correctional Center,
where he had at the time been receiving treatment for advanced complications from diabetes.
>> Yikes. >> Now, as for why he participated in and even arranged so many murders, the
answer was simple. He was a psychopath who frequently confessed to enjoying killing.
>> I was That had to have been the only answer because there was really no >> It was money, and he enjoyed it.
>> money. >> So, he just wanted more. Like, he was a greedy [ __ ] and he just liked killing
people. >> doing this. >> Former St. Louis Post-Dispatch reporter Bill Bryan said, "He had no conscience
when it came to killing. He said once, 'It takes a certain kind of person to be able to kill another human being.' It
always seemed to me that he got some pleasure out of the planning and carrying out of it." So, he just liked
the entire like start-to-finish planning it, actually going forward with it. >> And what's crazy to me is he was able to
find so many, especially so many women >> Yeah. >> that were also completely lacking any kind of
conscience. >> That's the thing. >> Like, how do you find that many people that are like on your level?
>> I think a lot of times, or I I will say like at least in one specific case, Carmen, she was so much younger than
him, and she had her brother and Glenn Angleman just like really hounding her to do this. And obviously, she's at like
just as culpable, but >> she was so young that I think she was very easily molded by these two people.
But then in the other cases, it's like these women just wanted money. >> Yeah, I just don't know I don't
understand how he was able to find so many people that were willing to to just be rotten with him. Like that's
just crazy. >> Well, it's sad, too, that a lot of them really weren't like they didn't they
didn't face any justice. You know what I mean? >> It's crazy. >> It really [clears throat] is a crazy,
complicated web. So, that is the wild case of Glennon Engelman, the killer dentist.
>> That's wild. >> Okay. >> Something that we didn't really touch on, imagine he was your dentist.
>> That's the other thing. Imagine you're just like, wait, >> [ __ ] >> Dr. Engelman?
>> Like it's just like, what? >> Cleaned my teeth last week. >> cleaned my teeth.
>> And then you got you got to find a new dentist who goes >> told me I need a root canal. What the
[ __ ] that about? >> he was one of those [ __ ] dentists that like shames you about like not
being super on top of your flossing or >> He made you feel like the biggest piece
of [ __ ] >> Yeah. >> And he loved it. >> Loved it. [ __ ] that guy. >> Such a douchebag.
>> So gross. >> And it's just so sad how many young like obviously like so many people lost their
lives, but so many young people like 26 years old, 27 years old. >> Yeah. >> And then like Arthur and Vernita just
this sweet couple enjoying their farm together. >> And their son. >> Yeah. >> only one member left of their family
after that? >> Oh, I can't imagine how he felt. >> And to know that your sister-in-law just
literally took out your entire family >> for money? >> There wouldn't be a safe corner of this
earth, let me tell you, honey. >> Nope. >> Uh-uh. >> Nope. >> No. >> Damn. What a story.
>> What a story. Do you have a fun fact as a little palate cleanser for us? >> I actually do have a really fun fact.
>> all about it. >> Um it's illegal, it's straight-up forbidden in certain parts of Washington state to
kill Bigfoot. >> What? >> Yep. In 1969, uh I don't know if I'm going to say this
right, Skamania County? >> Okay. >> They passed an ordinance, which is uh number 69-01,
period. And this designated Bigfoot as an endangered species. And it made the killing of him, Bigfoot himself, big
feet Bigfoot big feet >> um or any Sasquatch, quote unquote, um a very uh serious crime, and you could be
punished for it. They cuz they have to protect public safety, and they have to protect Bigfoot.
>> Fair enough. >> penalty was downgraded from this, I guess. >> like that. >> In 1984, it it it was a felony.
>> It should be a sexual felony to kill a Bigfoot. >> Um it's a misdemeanor now. So, it's
>> to kill a being? >> think it should still be called a felony. >> Felony. That's felonious behavior.
>> it carries up to a $1,000 fine and or 1 year in jail. So, >> That's not enough. Make it a felony
again. >> Um I think it's pretty felonious to kill uh Bigfoot. >> Yeah, they're just existing.
>> That's just me. >> What did Bigfoot do to anybody? >> Yeah, don't Don't you dare kill a Bigfoot.
>> All Bigfoot is trying to do is avoid your ass. >> Yeah, he doesn't want to deal with us.
>> to He's He's the master of it, too. He has successfully avoided us for a long
time. >> has. >> Let him just continue to. >> Let him live. >> He's just got big feet. That's all he's
ever guilty of. >> boy. >> He's just a big boy. >> He's just vibing. >> Exactly.
>> live. >> Yeah. >> that that's against the law there. Where was that? >> Good for Washington state.
>> Yeah, good for you guys. >> girls. >> We should also consider making that a law.
>> Yeah, let's let's petition our local government. >> Let's do it. That's That's what's
important right now. >> Yeah, exactly. [laughter] But let's let's do that one. Let's put
all our effort into that. >> All right, guys. We'll be busy doing that. So, in the meantime, we hope you
keep listening. >> And we hope you >> keep >> it weird, but not so weird that you
don't petition your local government to make the killing of Bigfoot a felony. Just kidding. [music] Just that.
>> Yeah. [laughter] >> So, there's nothing else to do other than that. >> Bye. >> Bye.
>> [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]

When twenty-seven-year-old James Bullock was shot and killed in St. Louis in the winter of 1958, investigators immediately focused their attention on Bullock’s wife, Edna, who was the beneficiary of her husband’s large life insurance policy. Witnesses recalled seeing the victim being chased by a man with a gun on the night of the murder, and detectives suspected Edna had arranged for her husband to be killed so she could collect the insurance money. They didn’t know it at the time, but St. Louis investigators were investigating what was to be the first victim in a decades-long career of a most unlikely hitman and serial killer.

Although they had their suspicions that Edna Bullock had enlisted the help of her ex-husband, Glen Engleman, in the murder of her new husband, it would take many more years before those suspicions were confirmed. And by that time, Engleman, a successful suburban dentist had taken the lives of several more people, all to satisfy his own interest in calculated and carefully planned assassinations.

MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

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References

Bakos, Susan. 1988. Appointment for Murder. New York, NY: Putnam.

Bryan, Bill. 1987. "Case closed." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, october 18: 77.

Ellis, James. 1976. "Killing of Kirkwood man may have been accident." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, September 7: 5.

Ganey, Terry. 1999. "Convicted killer Glennon Engleman dies at 71 in prison." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, March 4: 11.

Kansas City Star. 1958. "Shot, run over near museum." Kansas City Star, December 18: 1.

Mathes, Bob. 1979. "Clues sought in Madison County killing." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, April 6: 3.

McReynolds, Becky. 1980. "Many questions in new bomb killing." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, January 15: 1.

Reynolds, Becky, and Geof Dubson. 1980. "Dentist charged in 1976 killing." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, February 25: 1.

St. Clair Chronicle. 1976. "Shot to death in woods near Pacific." St. Clair Chronicle, September 8: 1.

St. Louis Post-Dipatch. 1958. "Mrs. Bullock's first husband won't talk at killing inquest." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, December 19: 1.

St. Louis Post-Dispatch. 1980. "Car bomb linked to earlier one at victim's home." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, January 16: 3.

—. 1958. "Dentist and his friends questioned further in James Bullock killing." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, December 21: 1.

—. 1977. "Motive unclear in farm couple's killing." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, November 6: 18A.

—. 1958. "Police question wife of man shot to death in Forest Park." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, December 18: 1.

Wehling, Robert, and Robert Kelly. 1977. "Double killing stuns neighbors." St. Louis Post-Dispatch, November 5: 3.

Cowritten by Alaina Urquhart, Ash Kelley & Dave White (Since 10/2022) Produced & Edited by Mikie Sirois (Since 2023) Research by Dave White (Since 10/2022), Alaina Urquhart & Ash Kelley Listener Correspondence & Collaboration by Debra Lally Listener Tale Video Edited by Aidan McElman (Since 6/2025) Listener Tale Theme Music licensed from https://www.purple-planet.com Main Theme: Matti Paalanen — Trick or Treat — Provided by Jamendo Ad Music: Title: Artist: BlueJay Studio — Spooky Waltz — Provided by Jamendo

Brief Summary

Glennon Engelman, a dentist, orchestrated multiple murders, including that of James Bullock, for financial gain.

Key points

Introducing Morbid's New Merch. Alina and Ash share their excitement about new merchandise, emphasizing its quality and softness.
A Killer Dentist Story. Alina introduces a chilling tale about a killer dentist, Glennon Engleman, starting from a shocking murder.
Witness Accounts of a Murder. Witnesses recount the chaotic moments surrounding the murder of James Bullock, raising questions about the events that transpired.
Ruth's Scandalous Confession. Ruth reveals her shocking relationship with her ex-husband to detectives.
Peter's Mysterious Death. Peter is shot while hiking with his wife, leaving investigators puzzled.
Unsolved Murders of Arthur and Vernita. The brutal murders of a couple raise questions about their seemingly perfect lives.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

What?

Alina's disbelief at the strange incident before the murder.

3:51WatchApr 17, 2026

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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