Ellen Greenberg ////// 886 | Forensic Files

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grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. >> [music] >> A court hearing today on the me report
that reconfirms Greenberg's death has been ruled a suicide. She was found dead in her Manunk apartment with 20 stab
wounds back in 2011. The case was initially ruled a homicide, but a recent Hulu docue series has put the case back
in the spotlight. And Shaya, you spoke with the attorney today. >> Yes, I did. And the actual hearing
itself was really supposed to be the chance to hear from the medical examiner on her ruling. But in lie of the city
unexpectedly releasing her ruling on Friday, calling Ellen Greenberg's death a suicide. The Greenberg family and
their attorneys say the fight doesn't stop here. >> How anybody can have faith in the law
enforcement institutions in Philadelphia when you see what has happened with the
Greenbergs. >> Joe Padrazza, the attorney representing the parents and the estate of Ellen
Greenberg, speaking candidly after Tuesday afternoon's hearing. >> The hearing itself was quick because of
a development that occurred before it. The development. The medical examiner's re-examination ruling released
unexpectedly Friday, just days before the ME was expected to appear before a judge and announce her ruling and take
questions after calling Ellen Greenberg's death a suicide. >> The city has taken the position that the
report serves in lie of the need for the medical examiner to appear. >> The Greenberg family attorney calling
the medical examiner's report shameful. There is no way anybody can professionally express an opinion that
Ellen committed suicide. >> 27year-old Ellen Greenberg, a newly engaged Philadelphia school teacher, was
found by her fiance in her manion compartment stabbed to death back in January of 2011. Greenberg sustained
more than 20 stab wounds. Her death was initially ruled a homicide by then medical examiner Marlon Osborne, but
shortly after was reversed to suicide. There's so many inaccuracies in the report. There's so many omissions in the
report and there's so many things taken out of context. >> Padza citing a number of points
addressed in the medical examiner's report, including the questioning of the time of death and the more than 20 stab
wounds to Greenberg's body. >> These are powerful points that unless you can explain them away, you can't
call this a suicide. >> Pedraza says this ruling in his view goes beyond just this report. This
report is just another obstacle that's been thrown up by the city to prevent that investigation from being done.
>> Fox 29 reached out to the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office for comment. A
spokesperson for the department saying in part, quote, "The medical examiner's office completed its report and provided
it to the plaintiffs pursuant to the obligations under the settlement agreement. We have no further comment as
a matter of policy. The Green Birds lost their only child, a young woman, 27 years of age. They're never going to see
her married or go to a marriage for her. All of that has been taken away from them. And then this huge hole in their
heart, what does the city do? It just dumps salt in it. 27-year-old Ellen Ray Greenberg, who
mysteriously died a tragic death on January 26, 2011. This led her parents down a very long and troubling road
filled with opposition and legal battles simply to determine correctly the manner
of their daughter's death. Was it suicide? Was it a homicide? Or should the death had been ruled undetermined?
In February of 2025, the pathologist that originally ruled the case a suicide signed a document stating he amended his
position on the cause of her death, no longer considering it a suicide. He wrote, "It is my professional opinion
Ellen's manner of death should be designated as something other than suicide." End quote. Since Osborne is no
longer employed by the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office, his statement does not have any influence on the
official death certificate. In February of 2025 here at True Crime Garage, we covered the mysterious death, the very
questionable death of Ellen Greenberg. In a three-part series, episodes 823 through 8:25 and an additional episode
on True Crime Garage Off the Record available on Patreon and Apple subscription. joining us here today in
the garage to further examine this case with her expert analysis, especially with the recent updates in this case, is
a very special guest. We have Cheryl Mack McCollum. Welcome to the garage, >> Captain Nick. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. The first thing I've got to say is congratulations on 10 years. That is remarkable to me. There are marriages
that don't last that long. There are certainly podcasts that don't live in, you know, stay viable that long. And
what y'all have done is just absolutely stellar. So, congratulations. >> We owe everything to you. [laughter]
>> I'll take it. >> I like to call her Cheryl Mac. I've heard others simply say Mac. Is there an
is there an opinion here, Cheryl, on what you prefer to be called? >> Either one is fabulous. Cheryl Mack is
great. Mac is great. Doesn't matter. Love it. >> As long as you call me beautiful, I
don't care what you call me. >> See, it is not difficult, people. It's really not. You just summed it up,
sugar. That's perfect. [laughter] For those of you listening that do not know, and how I wouldn't understand why
you wouldn't know, but for the folks that do not know, Cheryl McCullum is a crime analyst, a college professor and
author, and founder and director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute based in Atlanta, Georgia. And
I say, "Wow, Cheryl, with a resume like that, I can tell you are a real slacker." [laughter]
Well, I'm going to tell y'all the truth. I've been lucky. And I tell rookies that
at the academy, do not ever discount luck. It's a tremendous thing. We were talking off air. One of the first lucky
things that ever happened to me when I was assigned to the major case division, the prosecutor assigned to that division
was Nancy Grace. So, right out of the gate, I had somebody dynamic and professional and ethical that was going
to lead our team. So, luck is good. >> And we were talking off mic just prior to this recording session about Nancy
Grace, one of our favorite people to see each year at Crime Con. Absolutely amazing.
>> Yeah. I mean, she set the stage. I mean, there's no question. She was doing true
crime before anybody even used that term. And you know, if not for her, the three of us wouldn't be talking this
very day. >> Absolutely. You're also a an Emmy award winner for your work on the extremely
popular TV series CSI Atlanta. What's that like? >> You know, that was one of those things,
too, that just came about from a good friend of mine, Karen Greer. She had an idea to put some of these local cases on
TV and then let's work them like I would work them as though they were my cases.
And that's what we did. And we got a couple of them solved and we got four nominations and one right out of the
gate. So, it's kind of strange. >> Please tell your people that me and Nick would love to be the new host of
Unsolved Mysteries. >> Oh, wouldn't that be great? Yeah. need a host. >> Mhm. >> And we got two handsome guys here in the
garage that could do it perfectly. >> Agreed. I'm on the phone as soon as we get off this thing.
>> Yeah. Together. Together the two of us could combine to make one decent host, I
think. >> Right. [laughter] Two halves make a hole. >> Mhm. Mhm. For longtime listeners of this
show, if you remember a few years back, there was a picture on my Twitter feed of me standing holding a the Emmy award.
And that was not an award that I won. That was actually Cheryl's [laughter] Emmy that I stole off of your table at
Crime Con. and I ran it back to my table so that I could have people take pictures of me holding it. So they I've
not won any awards. >> Well, you know, even in my acceptance speech, I told them that I was going to
treat mine like the Stanley Cup. Everybody that helped me on that show was going to get a weekend. Well, when I
brought it to Kam Con, it was the same thing. Take your picture. Do your own acceptance speech. Enjoy that thing cuz
I'm not going to see another one, you know? So, [laughter] let's enjoy it all of us.
>> In 2022, Cheryl Mack started her podcast Zone 7 with Cheryl McCollum, which explores
cold case crimes. And Zone 7, a fantastic podcast, by the way, has explored this very strange case several
times. Cheryl, I know you often have guests on your show, and this is an extremely controversial case, one that
has made headlines, been all over Reddit, and continues to make waves. Even just last week, I saw two new
articles pop up on the internet about this case, and I'm sure that there were many more. But some podcasters look at
cases in different ways, quite different ways, actually. >> Some simply reporting. True Crime
Garage. Most weeks we are able to do a full examination providing that there is enough materials to pour over. But we
are looking at these cases with our garage goggles strapped on very tightly. You, my dear, have what they call a
trained eye. In fact, you have two of them. How and with who did you decide to examine this case, the Ellen Greenberg
case? >> Well, I wanted to talk to Dr. Pria Banerjee for sure. I mean, she's a pathologist. I'm not. So, I wanted
somebody at that level to just break down for me those stab wounds. Could you possibly as the cuda gr stab yourself in
the chest 4 in deep? And and I want your listeners to understand the way my mind
works. If you hit your elbow hard enough, you know how your hand just feels numb for a second?
>> Mhm. you start stabbing yourself between vertebrae, I don't know that you're going to be able to do that. So, I
needed somebody to tell me with those injuries. Could that even be possible? And then, of course, you know, Joe Scott
Morgan and Joshua Schiffer. I mean, there were several people that I wanted to talk to, especially Joshua being a
defense attorney. If you as a defense attorney are going to tell me there's problems with this case being a suicide,
now we're getting somewhere, right? But, you know, I go back to when I teach at the academy and y'all there's something
we always do with rookies and we tell them, "Look, you know, there's three teens in a park. Several witnesses see
them. They're walking around. They go down by the lake. They're sitting on a picnic table. One's wearing a green
shirt. One's wearing a black shirt. One's wearing a blue shirt." Now, according to the teen in the black
shirt, around 4:30, a teen that's wearing the green shirt says, "Hey, I'm headed home. My mom's making my favorite
meal. See you tomorrow at school. Then closer to 5:00, the teen wearing the blue shirt says, "Oh, I just got a text
message. My girlfriend's mom has left for work for the night shift. There ain't a parent in the house. I'mma go
visit her." From the group, how many teens are left in the park? And the rookies always say, "One, the kid
wearing the black shirt." >> Well, the answer is you don't know. You don't know that either one of those
boys left the park. You know somebody told you that. So on this case, with that same frame in mind, when I read
that in the police report, and it's been stated all over the place, no forced entry. No forced entry. Yet the
boyfriend broke down the door. Well, both of those things can't be true. So, the problem
with somebody in law enforcement writing in the report, no forced entry right out
of the gate, that tells me they accepted somebody's version of what happened, not
their investigation. Because if they had done an investigation, it would have never said no forced in.
>> And I think that go that plays well into something that I'm reminded of regularly
when we examine these cases. It's it goes to public perception of how an investigation is conducted and how a
determination is made. And a lot of times I think that the the general public assume that the medical examiner
is simply looking at the body in front of them, writing up their report, and making a determination solely off of
that. But what gets left out of that equation a lot of times is something that is very real and very true that
they are also taking a look at the circumstances in which the body is found, how it is found, what is found
with the body and the the story of the scene certainly plays into their ruling. Correct.
>> 100% Nick, it's got to especially if they weren't at the scene. The crime scene tells you so much. So does the
body, but you need both of those things. That's why when you have a really good homicide detective, they're going to the
autopsy. >> And how much do you think that that written into the record of no forced
entry may have played a role in the deciding factors of ruling this a suicide right out the gate?
>> There's no doubt about it. So when you watch TV, you know how sometimes on a show somebody will roll up and they'll
say, "Hey Joe, what do we got?" And then Joel will tell them, "Oh, there's a girl
dead on the third floor. Homicide or suicide." Or, "Oh, it's a terrible accident." I don't ever do that. I go in
that scene by myself. I determine what I'm seeing based on the evidence. So the evidence leads me, not Joe. I don't care
what Joe thinks yet. When I come back out and the lead detective goes in, then we talk. If we both see homicide or
suicide or accident or natural, then great. We're on the same page. If we're not, we're going back in together. And I
want to see what he saw and I want him to see what I saw so that we can make the best determination because something
like this case should never happen. Homicide, suicide, homicide, suicide, suicide, homicide. That shouldn't be a
back and forth. It just shouldn't. That should never happen. So somewhere evidence was not put together properly.
It wasn't put together so that everybody understood this is what we're looking at. I mean, you've got the court of
public opinion that will tell you this young lady was murdered. But now we have not one ruling, but a second ruling that
has said suicide, even though the second ruling found even more stab wounds. We,
the captain and I, when we take a look at cases, and it doesn't even have to be similar
to this one, but we always go into it with the mindset of, all right, somebody somebody has passed, somebody is dead.
Why? But we always look at it as this is a homicide until we can prove otherwise
or until we see other other suggestive evidence that it's not a homicide. Because I I feel like the flipping it
back to a homicide is far more difficult than than to take it from a homicide angle and then it becomes an accidental
death or a suicide. >> Nick, you and the captain have just nailed it. Every single death should be
worked as a homicide until you see differently. It doesn't matter if the person is
elderly and they have a disease and you see a bunch of pill bottles. Work it. Work it. If nothing else, it's going to
be great training. It's a good training day. But when you start to see something
where you're like, "Okay, have you ever seen a suicide with 20 stab wounds to the head, neck,
and chest?" >> 10 to her back and 10 to the back of the neck. >> Well, that's what I'm saying. The back
of the neck, >> the head, and the chest. In 44 years, if I tell you I've never seen it, suicide
ain't coming to my mind yet. I can promise you that. It's just not. So then I want to know where did this start? It
starts with a 911 call. I want to hear it. I want to hear that call while I'm standing in that apartment. You hear me?
>> And when I hear a delayed mention of a knife, baby, let me tell you something.
If it's a stranger and I'm walking through a subway and they are laying up against a wall with a knife protruding
from their chest, that is coming out of my mouth in the first two sentences, if not the first sentence. The fact that
this man did not mention a knife is stuck in her chest first tells me something and then he readily accepts
she did it to herself. That should stop everybody. >> It's almost like he's setting up the
narrative. He's saying, "Oh, I I don't know what happened. Oh, now I see a knife. She must have stabbed herself. Or
maybe she fell on the knife." >> Captain, I can't agree with you more. How in the world is that the first thing
you think? Again, with a stranger, I wouldn't thank it. Much less somebody that I was in love with, living with,
fixing to marry. The last thing I'm thinking, we are so happy, is that she's done this to herself.
>> And I almost feel like his demeanor is that he's comfortable with this situation. almost implying that he saw
her in this position more than a a couple times or more than a couple minutes in order to make this call. And
I also think it's very strange if I'm having to break into my house and I see my partner hunched over with a knife.
You'd think his body would go into some fight orflight mode and and also protective mode of himself. Is there a
intruder in here? And his mind seems to never go to that thought process. >> Never. He He won't even let law
enforcement think it. He wants to tell them immediately she did this to herself which if that were my case I would have
worked it as the opposite were true until I could see different. So again one of the things that really stuck out
for me was when 911 is transferring the call he's completely silent. Well panic don't wait on a transfer. If you're
panicked [clears throat] and you're like, "Honey, honey," or, you know, "Help," or whatever he was mumbling and
talking before should have been true through the transfer, but he was silent, waiting for the next person for him to
say something. So, there's a lot of flags with the 911 call. So, you add that to no forced entry, but there was
forced entry to why today? Why that day? Why that location? She didn't go to the
bedroom. She didn't go to the bathtub. She went to the floor and blocked him coming in. Like, none of that makes any
sense to me at all. >> I had when looking at this, I had just figured he goes down to the the gym of
the apartment building that they live in. And that was a way of him to I need some time. Something just happened up
there. If if he's responsible, it's obviously a very frenzied attack that not a lot of thought was put into it. I
don't if if he is responsible, I don't know that he planned on doing this that day at that moment. Appears to be a
frenzy attack to me. And then he goes down to the gym to collect his thoughts and like the captain said, start to put
together his narrative of, okay, I'm in a situation now. How do I fight my way out of this this trap that I've put
myself in? Because she's up there and she's dead and that's not changing and I have to sort out what is my next move
here. Do I do I move her and get her out of here? >> Mhm. >> Or do or do I stage the scene to make it
look like something else? >> And do I go down to the gym to take the shower to get the blood off of me? I
don't know. But that's why I'm saying you work it like a homicide. Did he have a locker downstairs? Did he have
additional clothing? I I mean the text messages. When did he decide just to bust down the door when you know you've
got folks that he's asking to come unlock the door but they won't. I mean the whole thing is just bizarre. But
again that day in that moment while he's going to be gone a half hour. >> Yeah. I think the planning I think that
planning took place before going down to the gym because I believe somebody locked that that latch.
>> Mhm. >> I don't believe it was Ellen that locked the latch. >> And the other thing, and they haven't
released a whole lot, but the knife handle is very telling, so it should have her
palm print, her fingerprints on it. If it doesn't, was it wiped clean? Is it just smeared prints that are now maybe
DNA? But I don't know why they're not talking about that cuz it should have her all over it. But if it's been
smeared and you don't have one decent print off there, I'd question that, too. >> Cheryl, was there any defensive wounds
>> on him? No. >> No. I mean, on on on Ellen. Well, I mean, I think when you're talking about
that amount of bruising, how do you ignore that? >> Again, one bruise on a forearm may not
be a defensive one. But when you have what was it, 30? >> Yeah. >> How do you walk away from that going,
"Oh, yeah, that that's a suicide. I'm comfortable with that." I don't know one expert, not one that's comfortable with
this case except the two that have ruled it a suicide. [laughter] Everybody else questions it. Everybody
from the crime scene to the 911 call to where she was found to the pre and post behavior to the position of each injury.
Everybody is like, "Nah, baby. There's more to this story. There's more. [music]
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does that box in any other future expert or person that has the ability to change
the ruling? Does does that box them in and and create obstacles for for that to be changed? I mean, if you're going
against a peer and somebody you work with, you know, yeah, that could be difficult. But if you can factor in
evidence that they weren't prevy to, that is easier for people to accept. So, look, there's no note. There's no text
goodbye. There's no call to her mom beforehand. There's no giving away, you know, prized possessions. She didn't hug
[clears throat] all her students goodbye. Like, there's nothing that suggests she was going to go home and do
this. She had forward plans. She had future things that were on a calendar, one being a wedding. So that day, in
that moment, in such a short window, something beyond tragic had to have occurred for him to say, "Hey honey, I'm
going to go to the gym. When I get back, we'll have dinner and watch Yellowstone." No, she decides to kill
herself. Why? After a great day at school, all her friends at school said, "No, it was a great day. Normal day.
Nothing out of the ordinary. She wasn't accused of doing anything. She didn't have police activity. She didn't have a
parent complaining. There was no reason. Even he has said, "No, we were good. Now, she had some mental issues." Okay.
Well, that's vague enough for people to run with it, but it's not clear enough to give a conclusion that would satisfy
me if this was my crime scene. There's a whole lot of people that suffer from different things and they don't hurt
themselves and they don't hurt themselves on a great day, happy time with something
that's coming up in the future that they're thrilled about. >> Well, and some people will cut their
wrist or they will hang themselves or >> or take pills. >> Yep. but to stab yourself over 20 times
in the front and the back. And back to what you were saying with the slashes to the vertebraes. If the knife was
sticking out of her neck, maybe that makes some sense cuz now we know, well, this is the final blow,
>> right? >> But that wasn't the final blow. So then we have to even uh imagine if she did
this to herself, can that damage be done to somebody by themselves? >> Dr. Pri Banerjee says no. And I'll tell
you something, mark 4 in on a knife and try to get it in a chicken >> and monitor the amount of force it takes
you to get it into a chicken. And to think that's the last thing she did with that much force. an effort after her
vertebrae is damaged. >> But to play devil's advocate, sometimes suicide is spontaneous.
>> It doesn't have to be a planned thing. >> Yeah, that's one thing we do try to
remind our listeners about that unfortunately it can be an impulsive act. And and here we actually see that
somebody I know that some folks would want to say that it was absolutely Ellen that did
this, but I there's no evidence to tell us exactly who, but there is evidence that somebody
prior to this was searching on the internet for suicide methods and specifically
uh painless suicide methods. >> Yeah. Well, they failed there, I'll tell you. And and here's the deal, too. Just
going back to the boys in the park. I don't know who did that, but they didn't select something that wasn't painful.
And if you're talking about spontaneity, well, she beat the hell out of herself first. That wasn't too spontaneous. I
mean, some of the bruising, from what I understand, was in different stages. >> Yep.
>> So, what is that about? And again, I understand that in moments of despair when people are suffering
from depression and other things that it's this second, it's going to be this moment. I don't want to hurt anymore.
I'm out. I get that. But even in those situations, the location of that body makes sense.
They're in the woods. They're in their bed. They're in the bathtub cuz they don't want to have to have the family
clean up something. That's not the case here. >> Right. >> So, the totality is what I'm talking
about. >> Speak to those bruises again because it the reports are a little all over the
shop with these bruises, but I've seen reports that say close to 30 bruises, some that say 20. At minimum, the the
least I could find that's consistent is saying that there were at least 11 or 12
bruises in various, as you said, stages, but they're they're at different parts of her body. Her right arm, her abdomen,
and her right leg specifically are noted in a lot of these reports. The thing is,
she didn't stab herself 20 times and then live for a day or two or three afterwards. No, she she would have died
regardless of who's responsible for those stab wounds, she would have died rather quickly. Yeah.
>> Bruising from my lay brain doesn't happen very quickly. These this is something that would have occurred how
much prior and I know you've not seen these bruises with your own eyes, but >> right,
>> but take us down that road a little bit when we compare bruising to these stab
wounds. >> Look, here's the bottom line. Your heart stops. She don't bruise no more mo.
That's it. So for her to have any bruise, it was before she died. And between 20 and 30, okay, let's say it's
only 15. When is the last time, even if you played high school football, that you had 15 individual bruises all over
your body? I have a sister. She recently fell down cement steps at work. I don't
know that she had 15. Now, she had some pretty good ones, but she didn't have 15. Do you understand? That's a lot. And
you can't tell me, well, she was clumsy. Well, she was accidentrone. It sounds to me like somebody beat her.
And I know how she died. Violently with repetitive stab wounds, repetitive bruising. In my world, that's a pattern.
who would hit her multiple times. Who would harm her in multiple ways? Again, all of that you want me to accept
was done by her. >> One of the things that you said was if you're investigating this case, you
would want to be in that apartment listening to the 911 call, >> right? >> Is there any other
things that you would have done initially when looking at this crime scene? I would have gone in alone. I
would not have asked anybody what we had. I want to hear what the caller said so that I understand what they saw. And
then I would absorb every single thing. For example, when the operator is talking about CPR and he says, "I can't.
You can't. You can't even try to save her." >> Right? >> That's interesting. And then if if he's
talking about I couldn't do this or I couldn't do that. And then you know where I'm standing, does that ring true?
Does that make sense? Right through that door, what would he have seen as soon as
he busted through it? Is it accurate? Well, I can't know that if I'm not standing there. So, that would be
important to me. The other thing is when he says she's flat on her back, was she?
I heard she was propped up on a cabinet. Well, again, both those things can't be
true. She fell on it. She fell on it. Why would he ever say that? How do you just walk through a kitchen and fall on
your knife 4 in into your chest, somehow flip yourself up to lean up over a cabinet? But he accepted that
immediately. He accepted that she did it to herself on purpose. He never once said, "Oh my god, somebody killed her."
which is I think what anybody would think immediately. Somebody had to have done this. The
person that I love wouldn't take their own life. They wouldn't leave me. He readily accepts it. She did it.
>> Not to get too far into psychology here, but do you feel like that that in itself
is to me because it screams of of someone that is an abuser, right? to to hey, [clears throat] not only am I going
to I okay, I forced myself into this situation now where I have to create some kind of narrative that doesn't
point the finger at me, but rather than go, "Oh my god, my girlfriend's been murdered. Somebody came into our home
and and killed my soon tobe wife." No, he's saying she killed herself right out the gate. Never says anything about
potential murder. Is that like a lot of times abusers believe that the the person that they're abusing
deserves it or or is forcing them to abuse them? >> Well, they're certainly blaming the
victim. I mean, it's her fault. You made me so mad I had to slap you. You made me
so mad I pushed you down the stairs. You did it. Sure. Because he he doesn't give
you just one explanation. He gives you two in a 911 call. Both are her fault. Either she did it to herself because
she's got mental problems or she's so ridiculous she somehow fell and stabbed herself to death on a knife. Either way,
it's her fault it ain't mine. That's all I can tell you. I didn't do it. >> She fell 20 some times on the knife.
>> Yeah, >> officer. I didn't do it. I was in the gym. >> I was in the gym. It's snowing. It was
snowing real bad. >> Do you think there's any thought process in the idea that he is setting up a
narrative? So, let's just assume for a second that he's guilty of this crime. He's setting up a narrative where he
goes, "Well, the door was locked and I wasn't here." So, one, he's distanced himself from the crime scene.
>> But then when he says, "Well, she must have stabbed herself." I would almost think that you would double down on that
if you're guilty and go, "Oh, yeah. Well, she was she had some mental issues and she was suicidal and and and we did
have some kind of argument." Or do you think that was a a conscious decision to just try to be more vague?
>> I think sometimes it's difficult for people to lie twice when it's on the fly. So instead of
lying again about it, he gives you a different version. But both versions absolve him from any wrongdoing.
He doesn't say somebody must have broke in. He doesn't say I don't know if they're still here. He doesn't say how
in the world, you know, y'all got to get here and help her. He doesn't do that. So to me, that's a red flag you don't
walk away from. With first responders being on the scene as quickly as they were, how difficult is it to determine
time of death? Because that would seem to clear things up very quickly in this case.
>> Again, they relied on him. He says, "I left at this time to go to the gym. I was there this amount of time. I
returned home." That's your window. That's your only window. Now, if he killed her an hour or two before the
gym, then went to the gym, then staged this whole thing. Okay, that's going to be a little more difficult. The
temperature is going to matter. Being inside's going to matter, all of that. But my issue for everybody that was at
that scene, if you look at the reports, if you look at the news that came out, what did we know about her quick? We
knew suicide. We knew mental issues. She stabbed herself. That's what we were told because that's what they were told.
But that should not be in a report as though it is fact. Just like you don't know if that boy
went home to have his mama's cooking or if he went down the road and was smoking
weed. You don't know if the other one went home to be with his girlfriend cuz her parents weren't home or if he were
kidnapped. You don't know. All you know is what one person told you. They left about 30 minutes apart to go two
different places. You don't know if they ever left the park. I don't know that she killed herself. She didn't write a
note. She didn't call her mama. She didn't tell her friends. She didn't give things away. Not that every suicide has
to do that. My point is I don't have evidence that she did that. I have a body with 20 plus stab wounds and
approximately 25 plus bruises and I have never in 44 years seen it. So I'm not going to accept it until I've
got evidence to accept it. The stab wounds in the back. What trajectory were they at? Does that make sense? Can we
put, you know, after everything is done and everything is swabbed, can we see exactly how they entered, did she do it
going upwards or downwards or from the side? You've got to explain to me how she managed to do that. Was it
one-handed with two hands? Can I get a knife the exact same size and reach every one of those places myself? What's
the length of her arm? I mean, I've got to know that. And and let me just say this, too, for everybody listening. I've
worked a bunch of homicides and I've worked a bunch of suicides before you sit down with a mama and a daddy. You
better know everything. You better be able to prove it to them 14 different ways that this is what
happened. they are going to have a difficult time accepting this. Even if the child has
said they were going to do it, told them time and again they don't want to live, told them they were going to
take their own life, it is still difficult. But if you have a child that has never said that, does not have
depression to the point that it ever crossed your mind that they would harm themselves. You can't sit with them and
go, "Um, yeah, you know, I'm so sorry this has happened. Uh, my condolences, but I've got, you know, 20 stab wounds
and 30 bruises, and she did it herself." That ain't going to cut it, honey, at all.
>> To your point, too, we don't have any Not only did she not leave a note or call her mama, but there's no previous
history of her cutting herself or or n even a single stab. >> Nope. And here's the other thing,
Captain Nick, anybody that has planned a wedding, you have to send deposit, you have to choose what kind of cake, what
kind of stamp, what kind of flatear, what kind of glasswear, what color tablecloth, what is your bouquet, all of
those things that she had done, every checklist. When is the last time she sent money to hold something? when is
the last time she met with somebody about photography or, you know, alter alternating her dress or whatever. I
want to know that because if you're going to tell me, oh, she sent a deposit two days before of $2,000,
that's another flag on the play. >> Yeah. And I think them being engaged actually maybe has more to do with this
situation because if they are making these plans, they're spending money. You know, you
could go, well, they're in a relationship, they're living together, he could easily just break up with her.
Well, >> sometimes for these psychopath guys, the more entangled they get, the more they
don't just take the most easy, logical, doesn't won't hurt anybody way to just go, hey, I don't really want to get
married to you and we're just got to call this off. >> And I think >> that plays into that. But also back to
what Nick was saying about the time of death, we do have some digital communication that is being made from
that apartment from her phone and and computer. But have we done any analysis to figure
out if that communication was similar to the way she communicated or >> That's right. And see, that's that's
critical, right, Captain? Because I have a daughter. She textes a very specific way when
she's talking to me. About two months ago, she was painting. So, she says to her boyfriend, "Tell my mom whatever." I
knew immediately she had not sent that text message. Cuz even though she said, "Tell her we'll be leaving here about
5:30 and we'll meet in the parking lot." That's not what he texted. He was like,
"Be there 5:30." Well, I knew that wasn't her. [laughter] So again, what is the rhythm? How does
she normally, you know, send things? Is it with an emoji or an exclamation point? Also, when he's not able to get
into the apartment, his messages to her, the phone call, the text message, the banging on the door, whatever, how did
it escalate? Did it escalate he's irritated? Did it escalate that he's really angry? or did it escalate that he
is super concerned? Well, if you can take concern out of it, that might be an answer because he didn't go downstairs
and beg for help saying something's got to be wrong. She's either slipped in the
tub or maybe she's had some type of emergency medical, you know, episode that I don't know about,
>> right? >> Um, that ain't what he did. So, >> do you have a a a thought on why these
investigators did such a poor job? >> I don't. But I'll tell you one more thing I would have done. I would have
asked them which apartment is vacant. I would take him to that apartment. I would go inside and latch it. I would
have an officer outside and I tell him, "Break in." >> Mhm. >> Same door, same amount of security.
If he can't break in, that means maybe his door was open when he kicked that latch. I just want to know, can he do
it? Can he recreate it? Show me. >> Well, one of the investigators said that there was no debris from
a a broken latch at the crime scene. >> Well, there's your answer. I did see pictures where the swing latch w has
been damaged enough and the screws pulled from the the door enough that it would have made it possible for the for
the door to be opened. And now I I should say 100% I don't know if that was based off of a recreation or if that was
the actual swing latch for Ellen Greenberg's door. >> But you understand that's something her
mom and dad should know. >> There should be no secrets here in in order for them to accept it. Every
single thing should be told to them, shown to them. If they did not put him through, show me how you did it. How
many times did you run into the door with your shoulder or kick it or whatever he's claiming he did? Was there
a footprint? Is there a scuff mark? All of those things, a bootprint should be on there.
>> Well, and at some point, too, the you know, the the investigators leave, right? At some point, they agree with
what what Sam is telling them and they and and what they do also is they leave him there at your scene. And
>> that's right. So therefore, again, it goes back to it's always a homicide until it's not.
>> It's always a homicide. And listen, I heard that they quickly called crime scene cleanup. So now there ain't no
going back. If you didn't get it, it ain't there. >> Yeah. We always say lazy or stupid. And
my issue with a lot of these cases that true crime podcasts gravitate towards are the ones that aren't investigated
properly. Because if they are investigated properly, we have answers. And it's almost like these detectives
didn't understand the oath. You're you're there to serve and protect. You're there to serve Ellen, but you're
there to serve her family as well. And by by getting answers that's of service to them, it it's it's so frustrating.
Captain, I tell rookies all the time, if you do it quick and you cut corners, that case will never go away.
So, this case ain't going nowhere. Nancy Grace has written a whole book about it.
There are podcast about it. I think there's going to be a movie about it. So, they should have taken even an extra
30 minutes and worked it. work the daylights out of it so that you can with some authority
show everybody this is what happened. Now, if it's factual and the evidence pulls you to
this conclusion, then again, that's something you should articulate where Joe Scott Morgan will
accept it, where Nancy Grace will accept it, where Dr. Pria Banerjee will accept
it. Well, that ain't been done here. So, I can tell you it ain't going away. I don't know how many times somebody's
going to say suicide. It ain't going to change any of our minds. >> I got a two-part question for you.
>> Okay. >> If you're investigating this case, are you questioning the fiance at the
apartment complex or are you taking him down to the station and would you give him a polygraph test?
>> I already have his 911 statement, which is good. He's already locked in on that.
any spontaneous utterance at the apartment. Anything that we're asking, you know, did you have a fight before?
Is there a note? Is anything in the home missing? He's going to tell me no. Nothing's missing. Nothing's out of
place. There's no sign of a struggle. Okay. Then he goes downtown. Well, now he's locked into two statements. So,
that's how I would start the dance. >> And what about giving him a polygraph test? He's I mean that's up to him. I
mean usually when you get to that point he's going to say yes or no. I understand that he's probably going to
talk to somebody pretty quick and they're going to advise him not to do that. But again at this point I would
already have three statements. >> I do want to uh echo something you just said here Cheryl about the telling the
rookies don't work the crime scene quick. A few years ago I had the privilege of going to taking a CSI
class. It was a 3-day course and I was the only civilian there that everybody else there has is was somebody that had
worked CSI, was a detective, uh, fingerprint analysis. It was voluntary reoccurring training.
>> And the thing that really stood out to me that they were teaching there was they're telling folks that that are
experienced at crime scenes, that have been to multiple crime scenes, this ain't their first rodeo. It was
certainly mine, but they're telling everybody else in the room, remember, you only get one shot at your crime
scene. >> Amen. >> We can't say it enough. There's You get one shot at this crime scene. You can
only be there for the first time once. So, don't rush out of there. Don't think that you've done this a million times.
You've seen it all. You know what you're looking at right away. Do your due diligence. You only get one shot at that
crime scene, >> 100%. And listen, I'm still an active crime scene investigator. CSI is what I
do for a living. So, not only do I preach that, I try to live that. I can get to a scene and it looks, you know,
pretty A to B. You know, you've got a deceased person with a gun beside them and an obvious sign of struggle,
whatever. I'm going in that trash can. I'm going in that refrigerator. I'm going to go in that mailbox. I want the
whole story. I'm going to go in that drawer next to your bed. Then I'mma go in your closet and I'm going to look in
that secret box that you don't think nobody knows there. I want the whole story. I know you got a big old Bible on
your coffee table. There's more to you. And I need to know. I need to understand
the victimology. Who would want to hurt you? Who would be so frazzled by it they
would leave a weapon behind? Who would tear the whole place up and not seemingly take anything? I want to know
all of it. So, I'm that person when I start bagging and tagging stuff, I will have a detective say, "Why are you
taking up that wadded receipt? How does it fit?" I don't know yet, but I'm not leaving it. If it don't fit, I ain't
hurt the case at all. It's nothing. But if it turns out that this is a sex shop that I didn't know about or this is a
bar that I never heard of or this is some type of um timeline factor that changes everything cuz receipts are
solid gold information. They got an address, they got a name, they've got a date and time. All that's good. And then
a lot of times it'll tell me what you purchased. Now we're getting somewhere. I'll take it. I know you thought you're
going into the garage today, but welcome to our sex shop. [laughter] Um, well, and and [clears throat] then
>> can you imagine the merchandise? Y'all would be millionaires. >> Uh, the the other part of that, though,
too, is double check your work while you're at the crime scene because you can't return. You I mean, you can
return, but you're you're not going to find it the same way that you left it. If if you if you pull a a a simple human
mistake of, oh, the digital camera was missing the the memory card at the time, or uh this wasn't done correctly, or I
wish I could have done this again. No, double check your work while still at the crime scene before you leave. And
and the great thing about crime scenes today in comparison to in decades past, we live in the digital age. You know,
there there was a time in this great country that we had jurisdictions that are investigating a homicide and they're
showing up and they're paying $10 for flashbulbs on cameras >> and and or they're working a crime scene
with a Polaroid camera. You know, you can you can show up to a crime scene today and and take as many pictures and
as much video as you want. Cost >> it cost the department nothing >> nothing >> nothing other than your time.
>> Absolutely. And Nick, I worked for a DA, this was 20 something years ago, that to
save money would only buy black and white film. >> And then we get mad if you took more
than 10 pictures. Okay. So, what you just said, I think, is one of the greatest benefits that has come out of
having a digital camera. Take 10,000 pictures. It doesn't matter. And there is a phenomenon I will tell your
listeners about. I've never studied it. I've never heard anybody, you know, explain it that's got a PhD. I can just
tell you it happens. I can take pictures in a 360 manner or what I have come to develop a 361 way of doing it and if I
even take a break and go sit in my car for a second, I will flip through those pictures, I will see something on that
camera I did not see in person. It's weird, but it happens. I take a picture of the whole dining room table and let's
say it's junked up with stuff. And then I take a picture of a side table and it's junked up with stuff. Somehow I
missed a matchbook or somehow I missed a small crack bag. It's happened. And then
I go back in, there it is, put my marker on it, add it to my list, and then I review pictures again. But I do that
before I leave. Well, I understand that with most crimes, it seems like the simple answer is normally the correct
answer. So, in this case, you go, well, if the door was locked, fiance's not there, that's most likely a suicide. But
because they only investigated it as such, they didn't look for foreign fingerprints or DNA. And Derek Levasser
on a podcast recently was talking about this case and he was talking about a a crime that the BTK committed
>> where uh guy and girl go on a date. He takes her back home. >> I can't remember if the guy went into
the house or not, but after some time period, he leaves and BTK was hiding in a closet. Comes out, kills her. Then
obviously if you're an investigator looking at the the case, you're going to go, "Well, if she was murdered, she's
probably murdered by the last person she was with," which would have been her date. So if they went and investigated
this as as a murderer first, then you have to start questioning not just the fiance, but everybody in that building.
And also, did she have another partner outside of the relationship? Did he have another partner outside the
relationship? Cuz there could be a scenario here where it's not suicide. It's not murder by the fiance, but it's
still a homicide by somebody else. >> Right. And I love Derek Lavasser. He has been so generous. He has worked with me
on a couple of cases of mine where, you know, just being able to sit down and talk through a case, you know, you'll
all of a sudden think of something just having that, you know, backboard. So, he's fantastic.
>> He also smells good. >> He does. He absolutely does. >> He smells delicious. >> He does. [laughter]
He does. And and he's fun, you know, but you know, to me, yes, that happened with
BTK, no doubt. And that was again super violent, but there was a sexual assault.
Here you don't have a sexual assault. So anytime you have a case that is highly violent and just vicious with no sexual
assault, you ask yourself, okay, people are only killed for three reasons. Sex, money, and revenge for the most part.
Now there's a fourth one, and that's just when somebody's crazy. But crazy you can pretty much come up with pretty
quickly. But if this isn't about money and she wasn't sexually assaulted, it was somebody mad at her. Well, your
suspect pool gets shrink pretty good. >> Back to the crime scene as well. We I had talked with a retired FBI agent and
there was a serial homicide offender on the loose in the early 90s in the Chicago area. and together we
were taking a look at one of the crime scenes and he he he showed me three polaroids from one of the homicide
scenes. One was a a set of stairs that had some blood on it that was leading up to the location where the body was
found. There was a picture of the body as it was discovered with covered by a a like old dirty blanket and then a
picture of the victim, the rotting corpse that was lying partially under this blanket now fully exposed in this
last picture. He says to me, "Nick, I want you to take a look at these and tell me what evidence you see and and
also if you have any questions." And I said, "Before we get to the evidence, my first question is, why aren't there more
pictures?" And he goes, "Exactly." He goes, "That's the problem. We're handed this case by by Chicago PD. We get three
Polaroids from a homicide scene." He goes, "We we >> unless it's something that we cap they
captured in one of these three pictures. We got very little to work with." And this to me is you do your due diligence.
Even if you're going into this place and you think you walk away thinking it is a
suicide, where's the pictures of of Samuel's fingers, of his hands, of his forearms? I mean, his clothing
>> of his clothing. We and and then to to hone in on something that you had said
early in our conversation here, Cheryl, and the captain touched on it as well. What I'm also not hearing in a lot of
these reports or seeing in these a lot of these reports is an investigation that took place outside of the four
walls of their apartment. Absolutely. Right. You you have this whole building that is that's your crime scene. Your
crime scene isn't just their apartment. It's this entire building. Do the three of us agree? I mean, the latch, the
swing latch on the door is essentially his alibi. >> There is a report that there was
activity on her laptop within 60 to 90 seconds after he's seen on surveillance about the same time he's
entering the gym. So, he would have already made his way downstairs. Now, he's entering the gym and there was some
activity on her laptop at that time. I don't know exactly what that activity is, but it's only stated as activity.
So, those two things would be his alibi and support the the story that she was alone in that apartment at the time.
But, do the three of us agree that whatever happened if if if she did not kill herself, if she didn't stab herself
20 times, do we agree that it happened before 4:45 when he's seen entering the gym?
Because there there there are a few folks that I've talked to and said, "Well, he could have come back up there,
bust down the door, and then killed her." >> Yeah. And and there's also a lot of
misreporting like at some point law enforcement reports that he came back up with the security guard. Well, that's a
big difference of situation because now you have somebody essentially an alibi. But if I'm
investigating this, I'm testing the bathroom drain for blood. >> Yep. And I'm testing the the gym drain
for blood as well. >> 100%. That's why I said that he go to the gym to get the blood off of him.
Part of the thing is, you know, you've got a security guard. You've got cameras somewhere on the outside or in the
lobby. You've got the latch allegedly. So, you're pretty much letting me accept that somebody stranger didn't come in
and out of there unseen. They don't have the fire escape. I mean, how did this person get in and out, right? But with
him, we don't have what I would like to have. So, remember Drew Peterson when his wife Kathleen was found in the dry
bathtub? He went and got a neighbor. The neighbor's the one that called 911. Well, was the fiance going to get the
security guard so the security guard could find her? I don't know. I want that answered. Why wouldn't they go with
him? Why wouldn't the super or whoever come up and help unlock the door? I don't know. Did they not believe him or
did he not try to get him? I don't know. They haven't released enough so that I can make the right call. I'm saying
though, you've got two parents that are going to burn through every dime they have to get justice for their child
because they don't accept it. You have got a slew of experts that are wellresected
that understand crime and crime scenes, that understand autopsies, that understand suicide that have not
accepted this. So there needs to be more done on the front end and this should be
one of those cases just like Karen Reed is one of those cases just like OJ Simpson is one of
those cases. If you want to show law enforcement how 10 years of their life can be wrapped into something where
somebody at the grocery store thinks they screwed it up. Here you go. So, you better take one
more second, 10 more minutes, another hour before you walk out and feel confident that you're looking at a
suicide when somebody comes to you as a police detective and says, "Detective." Couple questions. Have you ever seen a
suicide of a female with 25 plus stab wounds? Yes or no? No. Have you ever seen a suicide of a female
with 25 plus stab wounds that also had 25 plus bruises? No. Nothing further. You ain't seen it. Then why are you
putting that on the front page of the paper? Cuz you can't articulate how you got there.
>> And as you said earlier, the what is the trajectory of those stab wounds to the
back? >> I would have to know that. I would have to know why that handle of that knife
ain't got her fingerprint on it. I was blessed with these long ass monkey arms. And I'm telling you, I could as the
confirmation that we received in October of this year in a 32-page report by the
chief medical examiner stating that reaffirming the original ruling that Ellen Greenberg died by suicide. But the
trajectory of those would would mean a whole hell of a lot because I could physically reach behind me and stab
myself in the back. I physically could do that. But if that blade was any longer
>> than half an inch or 1 in, and I got some long arms, it it would be coming in
at an angle and not straight up or down. >> Mhm. That's what I'm saying. Why won't
they release it? If you're so confident, tell me how you got there. At least sit
with her mama and daddy and say, "Look at this." Like, take an ink pen. Did she go in from the side? Because everybody
likes to show like from the top of the head all the way down. It doesn't have to be that. It could be from the side.
But the angle would tell you that. I want to know that how did that knife go in her and at what depth and at what
interval? Cuz it's just not adding up to me the way they've played it, you know.
But you know y'all, I'm going to I'm going to say again, if there's any young officers or young detectives,
this is your nightmare. When you don't spend 8 hours somewhere, it's what's going to happen. Did you
look in the trash can? Maybe she had written a note, changed her mind cuz it wasn't good enough, and wed up and put
it in the trash can. But you're going to look and say, "Oh, they looked up suicide that ain't painful." And then
she picked one of the most painful things ever. I cannot imagine being stabbed in the back of my neck between
vertebrae. How bad that must hurt. And she didn't even lose consciousness. She just kept right on going.
>> Well, and trash can. Did you check the the trash can that would have been at the ground level floor or or possibly
the basement level floor? Because I worked in a high-rise building for many years. Every floor and every corridor
had a trash shoot. And if I have bloody clothes, bloody items that I need to get
out of that apartment without me leaving the actual building, that's going to be
I'm going right to that trash shoot and I'm throwing those items down there and they'll be they'll be
>> sent right into a to a dumpster. >> Yeah. Did they check her trash can at school?
>> Did they check her school computer? >> And like you said earlier, Cheryl, did
he have a locker in that gym? >> That's right. Did he take a duffel bag with him that never came back up? And
>> and it's just such a shame because we sit here with all these questions still
to this day. Her parents have and her loved ones have far more questions than we ever will have.
>> Right. But the the ruling that they get last month in October of 2025 in this
report by the chief medical examiner is is basically saying, "Look, we admit that the distribution of injuries here
is unusual. It's a little strange, but we have found that she would have been capable of inflicting these injuries
herself." So, it's it's almost like a because it could have happened, we are going to say that it did happen.
reaffirm that it did happen. And then going another step further to saying that oh the
>> the injury to her spinal cord because that was a big issue too of like well that there were some experts saying that
injury to her spinal cord would have would have had to have been the last injury if she was harming herself
because she would no longer be capable of harming herself. >> That's what Dr. Bannery said. Yep.
>> Exactly. And then then they say, and we know, here's what we do know. That knife
sticking out of her chest, that's the last wound. That's that would would stand a reason that that would be the
last inflicted wound. So, if that spinal cord injury happened prior to the knife
sticking out of her her chest, then she didn't kill herself. But again, now they're saying, well, that could have
been accidentally done during the course of her autopsy procedure. And it's it's
because it could have happened. we're going to say that it did happen. >> And that's where the real shame comes in
because again, if you do not have evidence, I don't want to hear about a theory. I don't want to hear about it,
could have. It's possible if all of these things line up that this happened. The evidence that we have that we know
occurred does not lead anybody to suicide. There's at least I think four stab wounds that would have rendered her
unable to complete the last stab wound to her chest with that much strength. I think she would have already been
passing out. I think she would have been losing consciousness. I think she would
have been losing strength. But here we are. >> Here we are, Cheryl. And hey, you are an
absolute delight. We thank you so much for joining us here today. You went you got to go on a double date with two
garage guys. I hope you enjoyed it as much as we did. >> It is the highlight of my week, if not
my year. I can tell you that. I have enjoyed y'all at Crime Con. Y'all are fun. Y'all are smart. Y'all are gifted
in many, many ways. And I just want to say uh when y'all set up at Crime Con, y'all are swarmed from day one to the
very last minute. Your fans are second to none. They adore y'all for all the right reasons. And it's just a joy to
watch. I'll tell you, I've sat across from y'all more than one time going, "Good Lord, look at all them people."
And it's just wonderful. and what y'all have put together and what y'all have done again for a decade cuz I don't know
that people really understand. You've got to think of something fresh. You've got to think of a different way of doing
it. You've got to deliver every day and y'all have done it flawlessly for a decade. That's that's pretty remarkable.
>> Well, what else is absolutely wonderful is your podcast, Zone 7. Everybody should go check it out. Before we
release you from the garage here, Cheryl Mack, give us one or two of your favorite episodes that that you've been
able to cover so far. Well, I guess one it would have to be 911 because during 911 I was sent to the Pentagon and my
sister was diverted to Gander and there was a constable in Canada that made sure
she was safe and had some fun while she was stranded there. Um, so the good people of Gander have been kind of a
remarkable story in my life. So, I say that one and uh the Olympic Park bombing cuz I was in charge of the crisis
response team which nobody would have ever known or cared about except we had a bomb and you know what kind of
transpired there for me was pretty career changing. Um, and you know, the love and just devotion that I have to
Fallon, whose mother Alice Hawthorne was killed in that blast, is something that
means a lot to me. And then I would say the last one is probably Melissa Wolfenberger. Um, and I have just
written a book about that case because it was so crazy that this has never happened in history, y'all, that a
serial killer becomes a true victim of crime when his daughter is brutally murdered and he reached out to law
enforcement and then reached out to me for help solving his daughter's murder. So that book is called Swans Don't Swim
in a Sewer. And that phrase I learned from Nancy Grace back in the day cuz we were
driving around all the trap houses and crackouses looking for a victim that if she didn't make it to court, this guy
was going to walk out. And the rookie driving us around all these places was getting a little irritated that we were
just going to one horrible situation after the other looking for her. And he's like, "Why in the world are we
doing this?" You know, why don't we go look in better places? And Nancy was trying to explain to him, "Where do you
think she's going to be? She's a crackhead that is our victim, and she was brutally attacked, but if we don't
find her, this person is going to be out there to hurt again." And she said, "Swans don't swim in a sewer. Of course,
we have to go to pimps and drug dealers and other violent people." So, in order to try to help solve this case, I had to
use a killer to catch [music] a killer. >> Incredible. Amazing. Thanks again for
joining us here in the garage today and we look forward to it. Hey, let's do it again and we'll see you at the next
Crime Con. >> I appreciate it so much. And y'all call on me anytime. [music] >> [music]
>> Want to thank everybody so much for joining us here in the garage each and every week. [music] Make sure you check
out true crimegar.com. Pick up some merch. Treat yourself. Colonel, do we have any recommended
reading for the beautiful listeners? >> We're going to do a little recommended listening. a little recommended viewing
this week. We're going to double down. First off, of course, go and listen to Zone 7. It's a fantastic podcast. You'll
be smarter for doing so. And that is a tip of the cap to our good friend Cheryl Mack McCollum who joined us here today
in the garage for the first time. It won't be the last time. And recommended viewing. Go to YouTube on the search
bar, type in Captain Fat Hands. I think you know who he is. Check out his YouTube page, his YouTube
channel. Subscribe so you don't miss all of the great stuff that he's doing there. If you like good music, if you
like cool little videos that go along with it, that is a great channel to follow Captain Fat Hands on YouTube. And
you can find both of those great recommendations along with all of our other recommendations on our recommended
page. That's on our website, true crimegar.com. Hey, it's only my seventh channel, so maybe this one will stick.
Until next week, be good, be kind, and don't live. [music] >> [music] >> Bob Evans creamy mac and cheese and
buttery mashed potatoes are made for the moments you can't plan. like lastminute
school costumes, glitter [music] explosions, or when little Liam brings three friends for dinner. No plan,
[music] no problem. Say hello to Plan B from Bob Evans. Because when you bring out the Bob, [music] you can take
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you need comfort, bring out the Bob. Available now in your refrigerated section.

Ellen Greenberg ////// 886

Part 1 of 1

www.TrueCrimeGarage.com (http://www.truecrimegarage.com/)

January 26, 2011 - 27 year old Ellen Greenberg died after sustaining twenty knife wounds. Surprisingly her death was ruled a suicide. But her parents did not agree with the ruling. The Greenberg’s went on a litigation battle against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner’s office and have been fighting for their daughter for fourteen years. What really happened in that apartment?

Joining Nic and the Captain is a guest that is long overdue for a Garage hangout. Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is crime analyst, college professor, author, and founder and director of the non-profit Cold Case Investigative Research Institute based in Atlanta, Georgia. Sheryl host the Zone 7 podcast. Zone 7 with Sheryl McCollum explores cold cases. She has also worked on CSI Atlanta. Sheryl and the Garage guys examine the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg.

Previous True Crime Garage coverage of the Ellen Greenberg case:

Mysterious Death of Ellen Greenberg Parts 1 through 3 - February 26, 2025

Ellen Greenberg /// 911 Call (subscribers only) - March 2

Beer of the Week - Augusta Peach Wheat by Sibling Revelry Brewing

Garage Grade - 3 and 3 quarter bottle caps out of 5

Thinking about going to CrimeCon 2026 in exciting Las Vegas? Save some CA$H, use our promo code - TCG

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Brief Summary

Cheryl Mack McCollum discusses the Ellen Greenberg case, questioning the suicide ruling and the investigation's integrity.

Key points

Acorn TV's Autumn Offer. Enjoy three months of thrilling mysteries and crime dramas for less than a latte.
True Crime Garage Celebrates 10 Years. The hosts reflect on a decade of true crime storytelling and listener support.
Cheryl McCollum Joins the Garage. Expert analysis on the controversial Ellen Greenberg case with crime analyst Cheryl McCollum.
Investigating Ellen Greenberg's Case. Discussion on the complexities and inconsistencies surrounding the ruling of Ellen's death.
The 911 Call. The caller's reaction raises red flags about the situation.
The Crime Scene Analysis. Experts question the suicide ruling based on the evidence presented.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

There's no way anybody can professionally express an opinion that Ellen committed suicide.

5:41WatchNov 19, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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