American Murderer /// True Crime Garage /// Episode: 624 | Forensic Files

[music] [music] [music] >> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
for listening. I'm your host Nick and with me as always is a man who says movies don't create psychos, movies make
psychos more creative. Here is the captain. >> It's good to be seen and good to see
you. Thanks for listening and thanks for telling a friend. >> Today we are still sipping on this
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of the business. >> All right, everybody gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some
true crime. >> [music] [music] [music] [music] >> The FBI and Arizona police are still
looking for a wanted man, Jason Derek Brown, who is accused and responsible for a 2004 armed robbery that resulted
in a homicide. This guy has been on the run for 18 years now. And as we discussed yesterday, Captain, we brought
up the fact that we covered the FBI's 10 Most Wanted Fugitives List back in 2017.
And I pointed out that the list has changed considerably since then. There's only one individual still on the list
that I believe was on the list when we discussed it 5 years ago. And in fact, our episode may have done some good
because there was change to the list within days of us releasing our episode. So, if you go to truecrimegarage.com
and you check out our blog, uh most weeks when we put out an episode, we put up a a blog on that case. And you can
get on there and you could submit a tip. You could ask a question about that week
shows. You could provide some information. A lot of times we get locals, people that are local to the
case that we just covered that they get on there with some somewhat insider information that you would kind of have
to be a local to know, and they give us a little more details about the crime or
the person that we might be looking for if it's a missing person's case. But, if
you go to our blog and you check back from 2017 on the most wanted episodes, you'll see that we had some good get on
there and comment. And one of the individuals was a Kylie from New Jersey who posted that just 3 days after we
released our episodes, Walter Yovani Gomez was apprehended. He was somebody that was on the list. New Jersey gang
member Walter Yovani Gomez, wanted in connection with a brutal murder, was arrested without incident August 11th,
2017. They found him in Woodbridge, Virginia. And then, a week later, a little more
than a week later, Luis Macedo was apprehended August 26th in Mexico. And Sarah from Parts Unknown says, "I
like to think that it was because someone heard this episode and checked out the list."
>> Yeah, and we're still waiting on our checks from the FBI. >> Yeah. Yeah, there would have been
rewards in both of those cases. And so, good to see that the quick apprehension of some of these people that were on the
list. As we stated yesterday, Jason Derek Brown is no longer on the list, but they're going to have a spot opening
up. So, I'm hoping that they use the excuse of this movie to place him back on the list and to really put him back
into the eyes of the media. And it was this case being in the media that led to a bunch of sightings. You know,
everybody wanted to know, where could this guy be? Where is he? There were several sightings. We mentioned
yesterday that he speaks fluent French and there were possible sightings in Canada. He's also somebody that was
raised in the Mormon community and for a while at least there were they were getting sightings of Jason Derek Brown
in the greater Salt Lake City area. Investigators even went so far to say publicly that they believed that Jason
Derek Brown may have been hiding in plain sight among the Mormon community. Under an assumed identity. And then
there were locations as far away as Quebec and Thailand that have been referenced in the Jason Derek Brown case
as well. One thing that I found in my research here Captain that I've found fascinating was an article from April
20th, 2020 from the Richland Source. And the title of their article was authorities Arizona fugitive sought for
murder may have been spotted in Mansfield, Ashland, Ohio area. There's a picture of Jason Derek Brown in the
article and the article's coming out of Mansfield, Ohio and it says authorities are seeking an Arizona man sought for
murder that has possibly been spotted in the Mansfield, Ashland area of Ohio. Jason Derek Brown 50, he would have been
50 in April of 2020. Of Phoenix, Arizona headlines this week's list of most wanted fugitives compiled by the
Northern Ohio Violent Fugitive Task Force and Richland County Division for the week of April 20th. Brown is 5 ft 10
in tall, 175 lb approximately with green eyes and blonde hair. He is wanted for murder and armed
robbery in Phoenix. Authorities did not say where or when he may have been spotted in this
Richland County area of Ohio, but urged citizens to not engage with him, but call for help immediately.
>> Well, and based off his age, I mean, at this point his hair might not be blonde,
it might be gray. And and you would think that the stress of running from law enforcement for the
last 14 years would maybe add to those gray hairs. But I'm going to just put this out there.
A con man, maybe the job gets a little easier as you get older because you wouldn't be suspecting
a older gentleman to try to con you. >> Well, and let's let the experts weigh in
on the possibilities of where he could be, too. So, going back to Lance Leising, Special Agent Lance Leising,
who was the agent in charge of this manhunt and portions of the investigation that led
to this manhunt. When he's asked, he was asked, you know, not just where could he
be, but also do you think that Jason Derek Brown may have committed suicide? That maybe he's
no longer alive. And Leising goes on to say, quote, it's a possibility. There are some family members that will and
friends that say that they think that happened. Leising goes on to say, quote, it's a possibility. There are some
family members that will and friends that say that that is what they think happened. He goes on to say, I don't
know why he fled for a while. He planned the flight. The agent says that he believes Jason Derek Brown was ready for
this. That that he could run at a moment's notice, which is what he did, obviously.
And so, he said that based off of that information, that he does not believe that suicide would be something that
Jason would do. And he says, I'm not a psychologist, but he didn't want to get into the minds of all of that stuff too
much, but he says, "If you think of yourself that much, that highly of yourself is what he's saying, suicide is
probably not at the top of the list of things that he's going to do." >> Well, we know what he got from the
robbery, but we also don't know what other robberies he might have been involved in.
So, we don't really know how much Like Like they said, FBI The FBI believes that this individual
could have ran at any time, and maybe was planning for that. How long was he planning that for?
And how much money did he have stashed back to do so? And did he have other resources that he already had set up?
Did he set up other accounts? Did he already come up with an alias? Did he already establish an identity
alternative identity? These are I mean, he was a con man for so long, and I don't believe that Jason was a dumb
individual. I believe he he did have a a brain in him. >> Well, a a big enough brain that he was
able to con people out of money. And continually steal from people, and commit fraud over and over again. And
one thing that I thought was interesting, too, is that the reporter asked the agent
"Well, what about plastic surgery? Do you think that that's something that he Jason Derek Brown may consider to change
his look very dramatically?" The agent's answer is, "Look, the pictures we have of him are old, so he's going to change
look and appearance just in age alone, but also, um that that's plastic surgery was
something that Jason Derek Brown may have discussed with family at some point, and that that would, of course, change
potentially change his look dramatically. >> Right. >> And then yes, Jason would have every
reason to want to continue to hide from the FBI and hide from the authorities. So he of
course does not want to look anything like the pictures out there, the pictures of him that are
out there. >> Another thing that's very fascinating to me is like I was saying before, this guy
gets his validation from outside sources. But he did live a pretty normal life up until some point
when there was a switch that was flipped. And so could a individual go back to that?
Again, you see a guy just working a regular job driving a pickup truck you know, change his hair color, maybe
change his nose and you go that that does it doesn't look like the same guy, doesn't act like the same guy.
And maybe that's why we haven't caught him yet, but it's also super fascinating because he's not the only individual in
the family that's missing. >> That's correct. His father's been missing for even longer than Jason has
been missing. >> So that then that makes you wonder was he able and and let's just go over his father's story
real quickly. It seems like his father was a little bit of a con man got into some
gambling and things of that nature. >> Maybe even some gang activity. >> Right. And and so some people go, well,
he's he's not alive anymore. He was taken out by people and then other people say, well, he's on
the run from those people. Not law enforcement, but maybe gangs or or organized crime.
So is it possible that he had some contact with his father and was they they're on the run together?
>> Yeah, it's really interesting because his sister, of course, is portrayed in the movie
American Murderer and and plays a large role in this overall story, this true crime story, but she's on record as
saying that she believes, or at least at one time did believe, that the disappearance of Jason Derek Brown's
father and Jason himself being on the run were were completely tied and completely connected. And she believed
that it could be connected in one of two ways. Either the father, their father has stayed on
the run successfully for all of these years and somehow Jason learned how to stay a ghost
based off of his father being a ghost. Or the other way that it could be connected
in her mind was she said that there are days that she thinks that maybe Jason Derek Brown is responsible
for the disappearance of his father. That and the way that she worded it, Captain, and her tone doesn't make it
sound like he helped his father to disappear in this sense, that maybe he killed his father and made him
disappear. >> Right. That [snorts] right. The the murder of the armed guard is not his first murder.
Look, we know he's capable of a heinous murder. Does that make him capable of murdering
his father? Absolutely. And then, is that the only two? Or there are other murders that are involved because
of Jason Brown constantly trying to con people and probably getting into some sticky
situations and maybe sometimes murdering somebody is the way out of that sticky situation.
>> The FBI has also stated that they have reason to believe that at some point and they don't give it clear
information. Like the more the public knows, the more the public has the chance to help you guys here. But they
state that they have information that at some point while Jason Derek Brown was on the run, that he likely visited
people he knew in the Salt Lake City area. But then an agent goes on and this is
interesting, too. This is something for I hope the listeners' ears perk up a little bit and they pay extra attention
to this. Because because again, our purpose of us covering Jason Derek Brown, again, is for the purpose of
apprehending him. Just like when we covered the list 5 years ago. But an agent says, quote, "It's very hard for
individuals to change the way they live, the way they behave. This is a guy who stays in shape, likes fitness, likes to
look good. We are hoping that he is seen at a nightclub or a fitness club." And then they go on to say that he,
Jason Derek Brown, is an outdoorsy type as well. So, he would be very comfortable outdoors. Well, one of the
people listening to our coverage of the most wanted list in 2017 was writer and director Matthew Gentile,
who is responsible for putting out this fine film American Murderer, which is in
theaters now. I'll give a little description of the movie here, Captain. It's obviously based on a true story.
They say this riveting thriller follows murderer and American fugitive Jason Derek Brown, a charismatic con man,
bankrolling his extravagant lifestyle through a series of scams. Jason Derek Brown is played by Tom Pelphrey.
On Brown's trail is Lance Leasing, a dogged FBI special agent played by Ryan Phillippe. Lance Leasing is determined
to put Brown behind bars. When Brown's funds run low and his past catches up with him, he plots his most elaborate
scheme yet, pitting himself against the special agent in a deadly game of cat and mouse and becoming the most
unlikely and elusive fugitive on the FBI's most wanted list. >> We'll get to that interview with Matthew
right [music] after this quick beer break. >> [music] [music] [music] [singing] [music]
>> Joining us here in the garage for the very first time we have screenwriter and
director Matthew Gentile, who is here to talk about his new true crime movie that
is coming out based all on a true story or mostly on a true story and we'll get into reasons why here in a bit. Matthew,
introduce yourself to the audience. Tell us a little bit who you are and tell us
about this wonderful film that's coming out. >> Hi Nick. Hi Captain. Thank you so much
for having me. Um as you said, my name is Matthew Gentile. I'm a filmmaker. Um this is my first feature film, American
Murderer. It's a true crime thriller about Jason Derek Brown, charismatic con man who became the FBI's most unlikely
and elusive top 10 fugitive. It'll be coming out in theaters October 21st, on demand and digital October 28th and I'm
here to talk about it with this movie, the case it's based on and with you and your with you and the captain and your
incredible audience and I'm excited to connect. I'm a fan of the podcast, so I'm very grateful to you guys for having
me on. This will be my first true crime podcast as we're recording it, so I'm excited to to chat with you.
>> Well, welcome in, and we covered a little bit of the Jason Derek Brown story years ago when we
explored the FBI's top 10 most wanted fugitive list with our listeners. And at the time, Jason Derek Brown was one of
the criminals that was on that list. The FBI was seeking this individual, and this is
very much a an FBI case as well as a local case for the local police there in the greater
Phoenix, Arizona area. Now, this is still a bit of an unsolved case because Jason Derek Brown, while he has
been removed from the top 10, he is still a wanted fugitive. The FBI and authorities are still looking for
him because he is wanted for murder and other crimes. How do you How does a Matthew Gentile
How do you get involved in this story? How How did you become aware of Jason Derek Brown, his
crimes, and and then you have to to write this. You have to almost live in the mind of this
individual or at least have him on your mind for quite some time. >> Well, first of all, it's a great
question. Thank you for asking me that, uh, Captain Nick. Um, the way I became the story came to me was when I was
between the ages of 10 and 14, uh, before I wanted to be a filmmaker, I wanted to be an FBI agent. So, I used to
have a habit of going on the FBI's top 10 most wanted list on their website and looking at it to see, you know, if I
could help them catch a fugitive for the reward money. That was a foolish, naive
dream I had as a kid. Um, I learned about the Top 10 list from watching the movie Silence of the Lambs
and then it's less good sequel Hannibal, where they show the FBI Top 10 list on a
computer. So, my 10-year my 11-year-old brain ran with that and would go on the list and look at the fugitives. And on
the FBI Top 10 list, as you two know from your episode and your coverage on the FBI Top 10 list, that there's a lot
of there's a sea of pretty menacing mean faces. You know, you've got Whitey Bulger, Osama bin Laden, and quite
sophisticated higher-level and high-operating criminals. And then you have on that list this surfer dude from
Southern California with spiky blonde hair who looks so much like Sean Penn that as I'm sure you know from what
you've read on the about the case, Sean Penn's body double was arrested twice in
the years Jason's been missing. So, you know, the first thing I think when anyone sees any image of Jason Derek
Brown, regardless of my film or before it, you know, they think, "This guy?" You
know, it's always been a There was always a little bit of that. So, his face stood out to me. Age 14, uh, when I
I was 14 years old when the crime was committed. He became a Top 10 fugitive a few years later in 2007, but I
remembered his face on the on the fbi.gov's site. So, cut to, you know, we're about 12 years later. I
graduated from film school at AFI, American Film Institute, and you know, I was lucky to short films I had made. I
made a western and it's all about a rock star losing his hearing. Those two films
were playing a lot over the festival circuit. I was getting a lot of attention for them and I was trying to
figure out what would be my first feature as a filmmaker. And you know, that's kind of
always the big thing when someone when you graduate film school or you have a short film that does well as everyone
says, "What's your feature?" And I was kicking around a couple different ideas attached to various projects. I've
always liked films in the crime thriller drama space, you know, the movie that made me want to be a filmmaker is a
classic true crime film Dog Day Afternoon. You know, I had read that when I was 12 and
became obsessed with it. My father showed it to me and I my mom bought me the screenplay as a Hanukkah gift
because they used to sell screenplays on street stands in New York City and she saw me eyeing it and she bought it for
me for $10 and that was the first time I read a script. So for me, I always loved
films about anti-heroes, you know, criminals, you know, for me like a lot of my kids my age were into
Pokémon and uh, you know, whatever it was at the time. For me, it was gangsters, con men, you know, criminals.
That was that was my that was those were my Pokémon. So, you know, I'm I'm out of school. I'm
figuring out what my next, you know, what my first feature is going to be and I'm storyboarding for a shoot. I was
shooting a commercial at the time. And I'm I'm drawing on my images and whenever I storyboard, I I always have
something on in the background. Usually it's a it's a true crime docu-series of some kind.
And all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Jason's face popped onto my TV screen. The same and I just all like you know,
it'd been 12 years since I'd maybe even thought of him or heard, you know, it but it just it came rushing back. I just
saw it and I was like, that's weird. And so I started watching it, neglected my storyboards.
And I said to myself, "Oh my god, this guy is still missing. He's still out there. How what happened? How did that?"
And so I became, you know, pretty enraptured and you know, I have a mentor named Billy Ray who's a top
screenwriter. He's written films like Captain Phillips and The Hunger Games and you know, he's a great great writer
and great guy and he said to me like his rule of if he should write a script is if I don't if I wake up thinking about
the project, that's the project I should do. It's a great barometer I think for any, you know, anyone in any field and I
I couldn't stop thinking about this movie. I just, you know, watching the story about Jason, but you see, you
know, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. For me, the movie is as much about Jason Derek Brown as it
is about the web and the people who knew him and who loved him. And you know, those are the various lenses through
which we see Jason throughout the film. So, for me, you know, at first it was like, "Okay, cool. This has a lot of
elements of like a fun, pulpy crime thriller, you know, an armored car heist, you know, a con man." I love con
man stories. But, what ultimately became the emotional engine for me and my way in as a filmmaker,
you know, cuz to me American Murderer is a movie about family. That's the theme.
Uh every movie to me has a theme, and for American Murderer it's family. Um but, you know, that became through, you
know, multiple rewrites and drafts. And so, you know, basically the the process of
how it went about getting made, cuz I'm assuming you from your question you want
to know about that as well, you know, the the way it came from an idea of, "Okay, here's this guy Jason Derek Brown
who interested me when I wanted to be an FBI agent to how does this become a movie?"
At first, I began writing the script, you know, on spec, which means just, you know, on my own, on my own time,
thinking maybe, you know, I could try to sell the script cuz it felt ambitious for a first-time director, you know, to
do. It's a big, you know, pretty big movie for that. But, as I started writing it, I just began to research the
case. You know, I started I did begin interviewing some people. I'm not going to name exactly who cuz I don't want to
out them, but I did interview people who knew Jason and were associated or associates of associates, and I began to
gather a lot of intel and information in addition to reading everything I could get my hands on that was out there,
which on this case there is a lot of stuff. Um so, I became pretty obsessed. I resembled Jake Gyllenhaal's character
in Zodiac. Just wanted to know everything I could. And then I began to write a script. Um
and, you know, the first versions of the script were actually like just really going with Jason's point of view.
But, what it ultimately became as the movie progressed was an ensemble film, where it's really about
seeing Jason through all these various perspectives. And, you know, we um you know, at first, the way the thing
that really got it going was I made a proof-of-concept short of the film. I shot one scene from it, which was
actually the climactic SWAT invasion, um, in the movie I did it completely differently.
And I shot a, you know, 5-minute scene. We had this great actor, Jonathan Groff,
in it. It was attached at the time. And once that, uh, short went around and his
show, Mindhunter, dropped, a lot of people were, you know, interested in it. And this company, Traveling Picture
Show, and two companies, Traveling Picture Show, run by Kevin Matusow and Carissa Buffel, and, uh, GG Films, run
by Gio Walsh, these three producers, at various points in the process, came together and banded, and they really
backed me and supported me and really loved the script and were, you know, uh, helped me develop it into something much
better than it initially was. And, you know, we came together and we made this thing in the, at the height of the
pandemic. So, it was quite a journey, but, you know, at the end of the day, it was really Jason's story, and it began
by just seeing the image of his face on this top 10 list, you know, to really trying to see him as
a full, fleshed-out character, um, who I could talk a lot about. >> And you were kind enough to send us a
screener, so we've been able to view it before this, our sit-down here today. And of course, the movie is about Jason
Derek Brown, his crimes, but it's also about his family and then his fugitive status. So, tell everybody about your,
you know, you did a lot of research on this guy, and tell us about Jason Brown and what you learned about him in your
research. >> Well, Jason, you know, there's, as I said earlier, there's a lot written
about him. And part of the, you know, challenge of making a true-crime film, I would consider my
genre it's true crime, but I do true-crime fiction, meaning that this is based on a true story. There was a lot
of research, but also in the process of making a movie, one, you know, a director and screenwriter and actors,
too. Everybody has to take creative liberties to make it, you know, work as a film. Um so, you know, what's in
there, there's the line between fiction and truth is quite blurry in a movie like this. But, you know, there was an
extensive research process while I was writing the screenplay. What I learned about Jason Derek Brown was, you know,
and a lot of this is in the film or vaguely covered in the film, um you know, is that he was a con man. Um you
know, first and foremost, that was his profession. You know, Jason was not a guy who liked to work a 9-to-5. You
know, he was somebody who, you know, would would come into a neighborhood with lots of toys, Cadillacs, BMWs, you
know, and he presented himself really as like a rich frat guy, you know, um in a
in a suburban neighborhood. And we show that in the film as through his relationship with his his landlady love
interest played by Idina Menzel and uh her son. Um you know, so, he's he's somebody who
had that larger-than-life personality, would buy you a drink at the bar, you know, would take you out, you know, it
just was a lot of fun to be around, that kind of charismatic guy. You know, his crimes were pretty petty for the most
part, bank fraud, things of that nature, you know, but he was always basically traveling around place place, never
staying in one place for too long so that he could, you know, stay off the trail of creditors and people who were
on to him. As his crimes escalated, his his pet his petty cons, you know, he started to basically lose the ability to
do it. He he became desperate in his own mind and decided to rob an armored truck
and that became, you know, what was the central crime that put him on the FBI's top 10 list. So, you know, his
upbringing, which there is quite a bit written about, and one of the, you know, the craziest mysteries of the movie is
also about how his father, um who was a con man himself, um you know, the the the background of Jason's
interesting because he actually came from a very, it looked like on the surface a strict Mormon upbringing. They
were a Mormon family, the Browns, but um Jason's father was a con man himself and
had criminal ties, and he his father disappeared off the grid in 1994, 10 years before Jason
did. So, there's a bit of an odd mystery around that. In terms of the research process, there was a lot written about
these characters, you know, which was my main source of information was from There were a lot of documentaries made
about them. There were a lot of articles. There was even a book at one point. There's a lot There are a couple
books. So, there was a lot of information out there, which, you know, I read and used, and I, like I said, I
did interview people. There's a couple of characters in the film who are what we call composite characters, meaning
they're based on one or two folks, some of whom were interviewed to give me as much information about Jason as
possible. But then I ultimately take all that information, of which there is a lot, and there are some amazing
true things that happened that unfortunately can't make the movie. I I find doing research extremely important.
One key part of my research process I will can talk in depth about was my um I have I was very lucky to work with a
detective named Adam Richardson, who actually runs a podcast called uh the Writers Detective Bureau, Writers
Detective Bureau. Um he consults a lot of screenwriters and directors in Hollywood, and he actually I'm sure you
guys are aware of the Jesse James Hollywood case? >> Mhm. >> Yes. >> He actually was a detective who worked
that case, and I believe he arrested Jesse James Hollywood. If not, had a key role in in getting him back here. So, he
was He worked the case of Jesse James Hollywood, and he worked very closely with me and gave me a lot of incredible
and valuable insight into the police procedural process, um because, you know, we were not able
to consult with the FBI on the film because the FBI It is an open case still, um even though Jason was taken
off the top 10 list. It's the case is still open, and Jason technically still is reported missing. So, you know, it
The FBI can't cooperate with filmmakers or authors on a case on an open investigation, but you
know, we were able to use the FBI in the film and all of that, but yeah, this detective Adam Richardson was
phenomenal. He really helped me you know, make sure I know it's our presence was interesting. He read a
couple drafts of the screenplay and after I consulted with him, I definitely made some things better and more
accurate. Um but while I was even on set shooting, you know, when we were staging the crime
scene and all those elements, I was showing Adam you know, I was FaceTiming him from the set. I couldn't have him
there cuz it was COVID and or the amount of people we could have on set was limited, but he was FaceTiming me for
all the things like the SWAT invasion, you know, to the car chase, you know, to to every police element in the script
that the stakeout and the uh >> [snorts] >> storage units, all those, you know, action set pieces, this gentleman Adam
Richardson was very generous with his time and really helped me uh you know, know as much about police procedure as I
could so that we were portraying it accurately and authentically as possible. >> It's interesting though, too, because I
look at somebody like Jason Derek Brown and I I cannot help but wonder was it the divorce that spawned this
kind of wild behavior that led into a lot of criminal activity, petty leading up to this
execution-style murder or was it his personality that led to his divorce or you know, the
the chicken or the egg. We don't know what happened first or what led to one thing led to another. But yeah, he has a
very bizarre upbringing to me. Almost, you know, raised by by a criminal-like father,
but also goes off on this missionary adventure and he's talked very highly of by a lot of people that were very close
to him and then he is accused of this execution-style murder, which is mean, this is one of the
most cold-blooded homicides that I can think of, right? Like >> Right. >> Yeah. Jason Derek Brown knew he was
killing someone that day when he woke up and when he went to the AMC theater that
day. The thing The thing that is so horrific about this to me is he didn't know the individual's name. It
didn't matter the individual's name. It didn't matter who that person was. He was going to rob that armored car that
day and he was going to flee. And whoever happened to be holding the bag was going to be catching bullets from
Jason Derek Brown. And in your movie, one thing that I want to give you a big kudos on here,
Matthew, is I've read pretty detailed descriptions of that crime. >> Right. >> The way that it is in your movie, I
don't know that anybody could have done any better of a job playing that out for
the viewers. I mean, it I think you got it as accurate as you as one possibly could.
>> Well, thank you for saying that, you know. And like I said, you know, just like what you guys do in making true
crime podcasts, you know, research and authenticity is important, you know, and you want to capture it as authentically
as possible, you know. Um yeah, and that that you know, there was a lot to research because it was a very
It was actually a much more sophisticated crime than it looked like, you know, cuz exactly It was very
calculated um is the word I would use to describe the whole thing. You know, he scoped out the right alleyway. He scoped
out the you know, he knew what street he could go in. You know, look, um you know, I as a filmmaker, I find it's
very I cannot make a movie with passing judgment on any character I'm portraying, you know, whether it's the
antagonist, the protagonist. And in this case, you know, your antagonist is your
protagonist in this movie. Um you know, and on the record, what Jason did is a horrendous, horrific act as you, you
know, as you pointed out. You know, for me the power of of film and cinema is that you can look at characters like
Jason Derek Brown and put them under a light. So, you know, you can shine a light on a dark soul and ultimately try
to, you know, without being sentimental, move the audience to understand who this
person was. I'm not saying like and I'm not saying feel sympathy for, but help them see him for who he was and
what he meant to be because you're right, this man did a really horrifying, monstrous act.
He was also loved by many people. And so, that's what the movie ultimately is grappling with is is like, you know,
are we capable of having, you know, of moving an audience to a place of compassion, understanding for someone
who is a soul of someone who's rotten to the core and did something so heinous. And so, that's what I'm, you know, as a
filmmaker. And I'm not saying you can and I'm not saying you can't, I'm just asking
with the movie. So, you know, that's what That's the ultimate central question of like why, you know, when
people ask me in interviews, you know, why did you want to make this film? What made you want to tell this story? And
that was it for me. You know, is can you take someone like Jason and and move it
on. And you look, we grew up in the era, at least my generation did of, you know,
the TV shows Breaking Bad and The Sopranos, you know, and you watch Tony Soprano and he's he's a monster, he's a
sociopath, but you kind of can't help but love him a little. And so, or same with, you know, Walter White in Breaking
Bad. So, I I think, you know, film and TV is becoming more and more sophisticated in this way, especially
with all the shows that are out there and and the books and and the true crime boom that we live in right now, you
know, thankfully. Um, you know, in the in this true crime boom, it's it's asking the questions of
why. Why did someone do this? And I think, you know, there's a lot to unpack with this character. Um,
I don't know if that answered your question. >> I think somebody like a Jason Brown
lands on this top 10 list from the FBI for a multitude of reasons, but I I personally believe that it's probably
because the trail for the FBI on Brown went completely cold because he's not placed
on that list until 3 years after the crime. Part of it I think is the crime itself.
>> Mhm. >> When [clears throat] you really try to dissect the elements of that crime and
in the crime that he committed one robbing an armored car is not common. That's not a common crime at
all. Bank robbery is far more common than robbing an armored car. Now, you rob an armored car and what you see
traditionally, typically in those types of crimes, they are much more violent than a bank heist. Bank heist, the
majority of them, it's some guy passing a note to the teller. That's the way that the majority of them work. Most of
these armored car robberies involve a high level of violence and in this case murder. And Jason Brown ambushed this
this gentleman. Th- This guy was a guy just like the three of us who woke up this morning, went off to their work,
went off to their job. We want to do a good job. We want to knock it out of the park here today. And but at the end of
the day, our number one goal is to go home, to our homes and to our families. And
this individual was not able to do so because of the the cold, calculated mind of somebody
like Jason Brown. I mean, we're talking about Robert Keith uh Palomares, who was
only 24 years old, did not even get a chance to pull his firearm when he's attacked by Brown because
Brown ambushes him. Brown manages to get off six shots. He's at close enough range. We're not talking about a highly
skilled marksman here. We're talking about a guy that ambushed and and snuck up on this guy and and
the closer he got, the faster he was pulling that trigger. He hits Palomares six
five out of six shots hit above the neck on our victim. And that's because Brown
knows that that he is going to be wearing bulletproof vest and he's going to go for
parts on the the would-be victim that cannot be covered, cannot be protected. This Unfortunately, this individual
didn't stand a chance. He he didn't have a chance. There was no fight because he
was ambushed by Brown. And then Brown This is how cold he is. >> Ice cold. >> He he has to walk up to the body and
pull and tug on the money bag to get it out of to pry it from the fingers of our victim here.
To the point that he drops the bag, he drops the gun, and then he picks both of them up before before he flees. But I
and I think I think when you really kind of dissect this crime, and there's a lot
of thought put into it. There has to be. It's so calculated. You examine the mind
and the personality of the type of criminal that would carry out this type of crime and you see just how dangerous
this person is to the general public as a whole. Because he does not think of people the way that
you and I think of people. He does not think of life or this earth the way that the rest of us do. He sees this as a
grid, as a giant chessboard. And there's a lot of pawns out there. And as far as
he's concerned, there's very few kings, knights, and queens. And he's one of the
kings in his own mind. And the rest of us are just fodder. We're we're we're pawns to be dismissed, to be done away
with so that he can keep going. And that and that always makes him dangerous. And then on top of that,
while he's on the run, that makes him extremely dangerous as well because we've seen what he he will resort to in
this situation. And now that he's on the run, who knows what he's capable of. >> Yeah, definitely makes Jason Derek Brown
a very dangerous individual. And people that think they might know where he's at
should be very careful and contact law enforcement immediately. >> The one thing that the film
doesn't get into dive into too much, but I did want to get your opinion on because you
you you were you were busy writing and exploring this man and his crimes and his and his
personal life for such a long period of time. You know, one thing that a couple things that he did that were
very interesting, I thought, while he was on the run. At first, the police and the FBI, even
though they knew who who had committed this crime, they didn't come out and publicly announce that because they
thought that the the manhunt would change. There would be a giant shift in the manhunt and in Jason's actions and
behaviors based off of the fact that he is under the assumption that nobody knows that he
did this. He may know that people are looking for him or he knows he's on the run, but for a period of
time, he doesn't know that they know that he's the one that committed this crime. At some point, they have to
publicly announce that, and I think it was about a month or so after um the crime was committed. And then a a few
years later, he his name is added to this 10 most wanted list. But >> Well, actually, just to just a little
correction there. So, what what actually happened was in No- So, the murder was committed in November 29th, and they
figured it out quite fast uh because of the fingerprint left on the bike. They knew it was Jason. Or they knew Jason
was at least very much involved, right? On December 6th, I believe, Jason was staying at his sister's house and the
Phoenix police did have a press conference where they released Jason's image from taken from the gun store,
which became his top 10 fugitive image. And that was put on TV and somebody, nobody knows who,
called or let Jason know that they were looking for him. And that was how he was able to get out
before the police and FBI stormed his sister's house. So, he was aware that he was wanted and
that's part of how he was able to get away. And then he actually drove his car down to
allegedly down to San Diego. Um they thought he was going to go across the border and then he's apparently got
cuz they he swiped his credit card at a gas station near the San Diego, Mexico border. And
then allegedly though did not cross. They had APB's out for him. And disappeared into the ether and they
found his car in Portland, Oregon. Now, nobody knows if he actually went to Portland, Oregon, right? He could have
not. >> Right. >> Yeah, that's another one of the many, many unsolved mysteries.
You know, he could have paid somebody to send the car up to Portland. But, um you know, but that's so that's just you
know, something to keep in mind was they did they did release um to the press and
that was considered, I think, by many people to be a huge mistake to release his image to the press when they did.
But, you know, they had their reasons, I'm sure. That's uh that's that. But, yeah.
>> Obviously, we can only track so much of his movements. Uh if we could track them
all, we wouldn't be having this conversation, right? Yeah, interesting to me, I goes down to San Diego,
gives the impression that he might be headed for Mexico. And then finding and then some trace of him in Portland,
Oregon gives the impression of maybe he's going the other route to Canada. >> Right. You know, it's like, you know,
he's a con man. You know, that's who Jason is at the core to me. Always was a con artist. How do con artists get you?
They prey on one's confidence, right? So, you know, I think he, you know, was And look, he was also coached in the art
of disappearing. You know, part of, you know, the storyline with his father is that he would, you know, they
the father used to say to the kids apparently growing up, "If I will If I'm gone for more than
you know, 2 hours or 48 hours, get rid of everything." So, you know, this was someone who knew
how to, you know, probably work under the black market, get fake IDs, whatever you needed to
get on out and and disappear, you know. So, it was pretty He was pretty sophisticated in that way as a criminal,
and then he's remarkably unsophisticated in other ways as a criminal. So, I think
that's what again makes him so interesting. >> I don't want to back you into a corner
here, Matthew, but uh Where do you think he is? >> into a wall get out. >> Where [laughter] Where do you think he
Where do you think he is? >> You know, we had in the production office of the movie, we had a running
list on the window of all the places he might be. Um, you know, for a while I I have thought
he was out of the country. [clears throat] That was always my guess during the writing
of the film. I think there's a very good chance he's not alive anymore. I think that's highly
possible. I don't know if that's true, but I think that could be the case. If he is, then he's still running, my
guess is somewhere either in like Australia or Southeast Asia would be my would be my best not, you know, I guess
somewhat educated guess, but it's a big mystery, you know, but I don't think he could be in the country.
I mean, he was allegedly spotted in Salt Lake City in 2008 where we filmed the movie.
And that was an area where he had tremendous ties to Salt Lake City. So, I mean, there There people in our crew who
knew him. Uh who who were very close to people who knew him. There was, you know, he but he
had you know, when we were scouting pawn shops and gun stores for the movie, there were people who would ask about
him like, "Oh yeah, I knew I knew Jason Derek Brown." Um so, there were you know, he he he had a lot of ties uh
to many different areas, you know, he also Jason's fluent in French. I think he also speaks spoke Spanish.
So, you know, that's a lot of the world that he could get through. >> Well, and so you say
if he is, in your opinion, if he's still alive, probably outside of the country somewhere. If he's not still alive
what's your speculation there? Are we Do we think cuz his attitude, his personality to me does not
in any shape or form suggest suicide. >> Mhm. Right. Me, neither. >> What I What I think could be a
possibility here if he's not still around would be Look, you can only con so many people
until until you con the wrong person and retribution takes place, right? Um >> Right.
>> And that that's kind of where where my my thoughts go to. But, I mean Let's He might not be on the top 10 list
anymore, but there's still a $200,000 reward out for >> Right. >> his for his capture and that's a lot
more money than what he made off in his armored car heist. >> Right. Well, that's the other thing you
know, people say a lot is you know, $60,000 isn't that much money. So, how did he
get out and go about How did he disappear? Like that's not a ton of money, you know,
it's not like in Breaking Bad when Walter White has all that money to go and disappear or
you know, Bob Odenkirk right or better you know, Saul Goodman has all that money to disappear. This is a different
scenario. So, yeah, you know, there there's endless speculation on where he can be. And you
know, to be honest, you know, I got I like I don't feel backed into a corner by that question at all. I think it's a
totally legit question that I've been asked before. You know, but I never really it's never been something that's
been that much on my mind, you know, as a filmmaker. I you know, felt like what for me the
movie ends when he's gone, you know, and that's it. And that's kind of where the
story ends, you know, I would be of course, if someone updated me and told me where he was or what actually
happened, I would definitely be interested to hear, but you know, the film wasn't so much about
that to me cuz look, even though and now maybe we'll call this a spoiler section,
so for your listeners, if you haven't seen the movie, maybe watch it before you listen to this very small part of
the interview. You know, maybe like for me the movie is about a loss of humanity in a human as
well. This is this man really eroded his own humanity to get this money, and he by the end of the film, yes, he does get
away with the crime in theory. But what kind of life is that? You know, he he he can never talk to anyone he knows or
loves again. He has to disappear. He has to, you know, he can't go out much, right? He has to kind of stay, you know,
so it's like at the end of the day, this man like has disappeared and it's it's as if
he is dead. You know, at the act of him sending a box of all his things to his sister,
you know, he's in a way saying goodbye forever Jason Derek Brown as far as you know him, no longer exists, right? He's
like erased his own identity pretty much. So, you know, while it is definitely not, you know,
it's a it is a tragic ending, and I think it's a tragic film. You know, the film is tragedy at at the core in terms
of what the how the story line plays out. So, yes, he does get away, but this is there's no happy ending, right, for
anybody involved. And I think that he he disappears. >> Yeah. [music] You let that
>> [music] [music] >> Want to thank everybody for joining us here in the garage. Join us every week.
Make sure you subscribe to the podcast. One of the perks of having a true crime podcast is we got to watch the screener
of American Murderer. And that's this week's recommendation. >> Yes, you can find that recommendation
and many more on our recommended page on our website truecrimegarage.com. Go see American Murderer. It's in select
theaters now or if you want to stay home and watch it on the comfort of your own couch, it is
available on demand streaming on demand as well. That's American Murderer. Thank
you to Matthew Gentile for joining us this week in the garage. And check us out again next week. Same bat time, same
bat channel. Until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter. >> [music] [music]

American Murderer /// Part 2 /// 624

Part 2 of 2

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This week in the Garage we take another look at a Wanted Fugitive case. Jason Derek Brown has been on the run from the F.B.I. and the Phoenix Police now for almost 18 years. Currently Jason Derek Brown is 53 years of age. He is wanted for Unlawful flight to avoid prosecution, 1st degree murder and Armed robbery. Jason Brown is described as 5 foot 10 inches tall and 170 to 180 lbs. He is caucasian, with blond hair and green eyes. He speaks French fluently.

He is believed to be using aliases that include Jason D. Brown, Derek Brown, Greg Johnson, Harline Johnson, Greg Harline Johnson, John Brown and Jay Brown. Authorities urge citizens not to engage with him but call for help immediately. Jason is wanted for 1st degree murder and should be considered armed and extremely dangerous at all times.

If you have any information concerning Jason Derek Brown, please contact the FBI's Toll-Free tipline at 1-800-CALL-FBI (1-800-225-5324). You may also contact your local FBI office, the nearest American Embassy or Consulate, or you can submit a tip online at tips.fbi.gov.

Beer of the Week - Adjunct Trail by Angry Chair Brewing and Prairie Artisan Ales

Garage Grade - 4 and a quarter bottle caps out of 5

Brief Summary

Jason Derek Brown, a fugitive since 2004, is discussed alongside the film "American Murderer" featuring his story.

Key points

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Hosts Nick and Captain introduce the show and thank listeners for tuning in.
The Search for Jason Derek Brown. The FBI and Arizona police continue the hunt for fugitive Jason Derek Brown, wanted for murder.
American Murderer Film Release. Director Matthew Gentile discusses his film based on the true story of Jason Derek Brown.
The Emotional Engine of American Murderer. The film explores the theme of family through the story of Jason Derek Brown.
Researching a True Crime Story. The filmmaker dives deep into Jason's life and the complexities of his character.
The Complexity of Jason Derek Brown. Exploring the blurred lines between truth and fiction in Jason's story.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

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Tension

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