A sit down with Chapman & Maclain Way, from "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga" | Forensic Files

hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is [Music] morbid it's a special morbid it's a
special morbid we have some directors on today honey o we have any award-winning
directors at that uh mle and Chapman way they are brothers we have them on the show today you might know them from Wild
Wild Country or Untold and perhaps now from Kings of Tupelo which is a three-part documentary it dropped on
Netflix back in December I think it was December 11th there are probably going to be some spoilers in this episode so
we definitely highly suggest that you watch it before you listen to this but and it is so good listen to it or watch
it listen to it and watch it watch it the the order that we would love for you to do this in is watch it and then list
listen to it correct and you know what live your own life though make your own choices on wild do but they were great
to talk to they were awesome to talk to this story has crazy details there's rice and Lace letters being sent to
President Obama if anybody remembers that from I think 2013 there's a deep dark conspiracy about Black Market body
parts y severed heads and freezers and somehow that all culminates into an Elvis impersonator massive Feud with a
Taekwondo instructor as as it usually does yeah so if that doesn't entice you I love you but I don't know what's wrong
with you but I don't know what you like okay I I don't know what you could possibly like but if that does entice
you keep listening so before we get into the details of the kings of Tupelo we wanted to talk a little bit about how
you guys got into film making in the first place it's obviously something that's in your blood so was it something
that you guys were always interested in yeah it's a it's a it's an interesting question I think uh Mac and I grew up in
a family that has worked in the film industry our uh our father was a screenplay writer uh growing up and
wrote screenplays for films and um we've had uncles and auns who are producers and actors and things like that and so
um it was kind of always around us but truthfully Mac and I kind of love sports growing up and so really we played a lot
of sports and then I think we got older and realized uh there was zero chance of
us ever becoming professional athletes uh which my my my dream is still don't don't kill my yeah right I'm a 34y old
guy and i' still got a great jump shot there's still time never give up there's still things that we kind of got like uh
obsessed with music and film and the Arts in in high school and and really kind of came to it on her own in a way
and um I was kind of studying cinematography and Mac was actually studying his hisory at the time and this
was around you know 2007 2008 um and quickly realized that there was like kind of new ways to make documentary
films like I think we kind of grew up where documentaries were kind of like the vegetables so they were like the
broccoli of the entertainment industry yes we were starting to see like more entertaining more thrilling more Artful
documentary film making and so we kind of dove in and around 2010 and kind of been doing it ever since nice awesome so
for our listeners that have not seen this specific documentary at Kings of Tupelo can you give us a brief overview
of what takes place and kind of what the story is All About cuz there's a lot there yes I think brief is probably the
most important word in that question so I'll I'll do my best because it's it's a
weird story but basically in 2013 kind of one of our country's preeminent Elvis impersonators had been arrested um for
trying to assassinate President Barack Obama and had sent poison in the mail a poison called ryson just very potent
dangerous rare um poison and uh basically a week later he was released from uh interrogation from prison uh and
it had been announced that he had been framed by a local rival pirani instructor in the town of tupo
Mississippi where they're both from and so that's kind of the headline uh we flew out to Tupelo Mississippi which is
the birthplace of Elvis Presley um in 2020 started meeting with a lot of the characters and kind of quickly realized
that there was a whole hell of a lot more to the story than just that insane headline so um our journey began in 2020
probably I'd say is when we kind of started working on this full-time you left out so much chat you left out you
left out that was not easy said the dog don't realize what a great job I did you
really did that was like that was like that was like 4% of the documentary kiding it's so wild too cuz if you heard
that synopsis or read that synopsis on the back of like a fiction book you'd be like that's a lot like you that's crazy
that's a little far-fetched it's like this is real we always say like if we like pitch this as a a narrative film
like no one would ever that's wild No One's Gonna buy that yeah that was our experience too like we the first time we
you know when you go into Tupelo you you fly into Memphis and then it's like 90 minutes south you cross over the state
border and into Mississippi and like it you're not really driving to anything like you know you just kind of like go
to tupo it always felt like kind of like the town from like big fish a little bit
where it's like you kind of like go off this like eaten path to this dirt road and like you see these like telephone
wires with like everyone's like shoes like strung up and like no one really like leaves this town but it's like a
really like cool magical place uh but it was interesting like because when we first got there there was almost an
element that I was like a little nervous I would wince when I would tell people I
was there because we kind of just by the by by the fact that there was like seven
or eight or nine or 10 of us in our film crew and we have film cameras and we had
like a small production band like people just notice you immediately and they ask
you like what you're doing there but they're very friendly about it it's like a very like hospitable welcome and it
almost like went telling them you know like oh we're doing like the 2013 Presidential assassination cuz like a
small town you would think that would like not not that that's not they wouldn't be that excited that the
Netflix talking would be doing something on that story and it felt like their reaction was like the exact exact
opposite like they were so stoked that like Netflix that someone was coming it down to do something like kind of
involved with Elvis but more on this like whackadoo crazy story with all these like really fascinating characters
and it was like that almost like set the tone for the whole dock where it's like
oh we can actually have like a lot of a lot of fun with this one it's it's and I
think we certainly did it was it was cool yeah that's amazing cuz I would assume that you probably don't run into
that a lot where people are so willing to talk to you like that and especially in a small town too yeah it's I mean
like especially in La no one wants to be on camera everyone's like very angry when they see cameras and when we got
the two not only were they excited but there are certain characters in our story who play Like the quote unquote
role of the villain or the bad guy and they were like so excited by that opportunity and even the opportunity to
to be the the bad guy in this story and so uh we had so much fun we quickly realized down in the South uh especially
in Tupelo and Mississippi that they love telling stories you know they love embellishing the truth they love
heightening the truth they're just such larger than like characters they they're
they're proud of their eccentricities and I think kind of where we're from is a little bit different people kind of
hide their quirks and their weird things and it was just so much fun and so refreshing to be in the South where um
it's really a badge of honor your eccentricity and we truly had a great time hanging out with these characters
and getting to film them that's so cool I love the way you guys open the documentary too where you talk about how
southern people and the south in general is just so good at storytelling because
immediately that documentary opens and you're like oh this is going to first of all you know it's going to be a tale if
you read the description and then the way it starts you're like this is a cozy Vibe I like this it was our uh like we
always joke that that was like our version of like legal display was just using using like a William fauler quote
like and then Steve Holland who's our our Mississippi Undertaker kind of just waxs his poetic on on uh yeah exactly
what chap said just like how they love to embellish stories for for a good time because it was interesting like there
was so much to this documentary that like I think it it took a while to make it I think it took us like you know from
from like real production to finishing was at least two 2 and a half years you know and then we had important from
Netflix so it's like it wasn't like we needed to like rally resources like we went at it pretty quickly um but like to
investigate like all the truth claims in this documentary like I think would have
taken like 10 years to make it easily so there was kind of an element of like when we were down there like within
reason I think we just tried to like ride the waves of these interviews and some of the outlandish stuff that was
that was being said said to us so when did this story first like come across your desk I guess I would say was it the
presidential assassination that you heard of first or was it another element of the story yeah I mean so 2013 we just
had like a very faint memory honestly of just the first part of the story that an
Elvis impersonator had been arrested for trying to assassinate the president so just that headline kind of always stayed
with us and then in 2020 I kind of became fascinated with small towns and and small towns that have these
incredibly uh bizarre and human stories that maybe other people don't know and I
was doing re church and kind of stumbled across tupo which is like a world unto itself it's just filled with Elvis
statues and Elvis murals and they're kind of like the The Stepbrother to to graceand and Memphis with where Elvis is
really known for and and then all like just researching Tupelo I saw that the presidential assassination Story the two
main characters lived in Tupelo and so then I started reading it again Mac and I started researching we we flew out
there in 2020 not even knowing is it a short dock is it a feature what is it and like I said we met Paul Kevin Curtis
who's the main character who was arrest initially arrested for for trying to assassinate Obama and and within 10
minutes I was like Kevin is an incredible Storyteller he's an incredible character uh he's so Dynamic
on screen and he just has an amazing story that no one really knows about and so that was kind of the impetus that
started at all that makes sense he really is such a good Storyteller it was wild and I love the story board that you
guys kind of intertwin throughout the documentary that's awesome I was going to say that was it was the way you guys
shot this that like you get that town like while you watch it like you feel that town you get that it's like this
like it's over the top in like the best way like everyone is shot like so dynamically and in such like Dynamic
environments for who they are like you just got everybody it was so it's always awesome to hear I mean like we're we're
less maybe like investigative documentary filmmakers and tried like storytelling I think as as what and the
tupo is a character in the story so it was important for us that itd be heightened we always said it kind of
felt like a Tim Burton movie or something a little bit of an upside down world and uh it was important for us to
capture that had a little bit of a Twilight Zone uh feel the best way possible very much um and so it's always
really cool to hear that that stuff resonates and and comes through yeah it was interesting because even like um
yeah when we went to like Kevin's camper that was like we knew like this is like
a really like authentic interesting place that that Kevin lives in you know and it was not easy cuz we we like to
shoot with three cameras for talking head interviews which is like you know you at least need two but three is just
to get you like an extra angle if you want it um but it but literally like it could only like thank God chat my my
brother knows how to do sound because like I kind of would ask the questions chat would do sound and run one camera
and then our cinematographer David Bolan who just like look shot so much amazing
stuff in this series that it just look so good uh he was like operating two cameras at the same time oh my God just
it was it was a tight spot it was we couldn't get like an everone in there but uh but no tupo is kind of like a
little bit like one of the last documentary series we made wild wall country there was a town called analou
and like it very culturally different places but whenever you're a filmmaker and you like get into a town and you're
like oh my God anywhere I point the camera it looks great like it's cool cuz it's real it's authentic and uh you
really get those in thisly these like small historic towns and then CH is cool too just because like Elvis is just
pervasive everywhere there's like every street corner has an Elvis statue or an Elvis mural or like and his like he he
looks at you like everywhere you go in that town and such a Vibe it is a Vibe like and in a weird way like we always
felt like that that was like the subtext to the insanity of these characters was
like only like the most famous person probably of all time in western civilization Elvis Presley like came
from this Tiny Town and everyone here today is like in their own kind of perverse perverted but really like
interesting Fantastical way is like trying to reach that level of like uh notoriety like the like illusion of
grand yours are there so um you know that that was always fun to kind of play around with that Stu even when Laura
said there was one thing that she said where she was like every girl wanted to sleep with one of the El Elvis
impersonators like growing up just something he wanted to do and I was like absolutely like of course relatable who
she said the bucket list she said it like it's just like that's just what you do like she's so
much fun Laura is a great character she really L very honest and yeah I I I that
cracked me up when she said that and and not shameful way but in a in a very uh owned it and very prideful way
from yeah that's how she said matter exactly so good did I read that one of you guys used to do autopsies is that
correct Selena yeah I was I'm an I was an autopsy technician I guess you're always an autopsy I ask you a question
I'm curious yeah you're your interpretation and take on this body parts Black Market conspiracy it's just
like just we were America is listening all right America is listening you're about to
piss off half of America and become the hero to the hat so just choose the side choose the side you want to be on I'll
choose I'm going to step my toe over it's I can when he said he went like when he said he went down into the morg
and he was cleaning up and like when he said he just like opened a fre a fridge to like get a Dr Pepper I was like from
where but he was like we don't have those down there but when he said he opened it up and he saw at first he said
he you know I saw a severed head and I saw these body parts I was like all right the severed head strange it
probably shouldn't be there but body parts in a freezer are very typical and I was like it would freak somewhat like
you know that you have to store them you're preserving them for research and for tissue sampling and for donations
anything like interesting I mean we would store entire like spinal columns in the freezer sometimes so it's like if
you opened that you'd be like what it would look like Hannibal from Outsider would look strange but for someone who
has experience knows like okay these things get tested for diseases apologies and it looks strange because it's by
itself curious this this is an odd question but I did I love that we're talking to like our the best expert on
this issue on the podcast and not and not the documentary film that we made it's kind of giving me joy um but I
did have a conversation with someone that also worked in I think a dental morg is what it was called which I I
don't like I guess it's yes I don't know it's like that something but identify teeth and people yeah I guess so
something like that was in New York City and he and he made the point but I'm curious if this was your experience
where he was like my Lord was surprisingly like messier than you would think Messier in terms of like gr it's
grotesque it can get grotesque down there so I'm curious if that was your take or if it's like no like that's not
how it's not like it get bad M so that's always it's funny because I think like the CSI effect yeah has made people
think that like morgs are these like Hightech super pristine everything is like glass and like yeah like and it's
like we were very clean and it was cleaned every night and you know procedures were followed and like things
were taken care of that way but it's a wreck I mean it's like there's like a car shop or something you're going to
have it's just like so like and and Things Are surprisingly like not high-tech like when you know I always
tell people like when we you have to cut the ribs to take the chest plate off and
get to everything we would use Home Depot hedge Cutters to cut ribs it wasn't like we had a rib cutter that was
that so they're like the orange handle like very interesting but it was there was a lot of like lot of blood smears
get on things it's it's not you clean up at the end yeah somebody walks in there
in the middle of the day pouring question I think they're a are curious about there are no Dr Peppers
in all right Peppers got that one on your Authority all right of him just taking Hazmat off for a Dr Pepper I love
that so much that was the other thing I was like dear God what a what a choice I
was like no way something you touched on earlier I do feel like Tupelo is a character it's
almost more of a character than it is of a setting so what was it like spending those N9 months there capturing
everything you did the way kind of documentaries are made now is it's much more of like a factory machine where you
know you're given two weeks of filming you have to film all of your interviews and all your b-roll in this amount of
time and I think the one really cool thing about our partnership with Netflix is they really give us like the
resources and the time to go live in these places and make these documentaries and I think when if when
you just fly into somewhere as an outsider with c for 10 days and then just throw people
on camera and then leave there's something like very like nonh human about it I feel like you don't actually
really get to know the people the way of life what they do so most importantly for us it was just about us getting to
spend time with these people have meals with these people sit around the fire with these people and um like learn how
to embrace the weirdness of their lives but also like honoring the weirdness and
and the humanity behind it and so being out there for 9 months you know it's a cliche but it does kind of become a big
family with all the different subjects and you get to know their families and by the time you start filming there just
is an inherent trust we know them they know us um and I think it really lends towards kind of getting these more
authentic and and insightful looks into these characters in their lives and like
it was so funny CU like since the documentary comes out like yeah there there has been like a big reaction to
like wow these are some like weird characters you know but I was always like well like what about the two dudes from
La that chose to go spend like 10 months like like that's weirder than any and I was like if they're if they're
weird but like I think we're the weirdest of them all to be like a part of this uh but no like I said at the top
like they were just so welcoming in a way like I literally remember the only time I think and not that like Kevin or
Laura cared about this but it did crack me up the only time I felt like I ever put my foot in my mouth was when you
call when when I called some someone an Elvis in person and like I got pulled aside and was like
politely but sternly told that they're called Elvis tribute artists they're not Elvis
impersonator more serious than and I always messed that up I was never able to really commit the Elvis tribute
artist to to it's a Memory it's a mouth you're like writing it on your hand in between takes it's a it's it's a wild
town like it's you know we even have some sections that are a little like heavier but but that was like our
experience there like Kennedy who's Kevin's son kind of goes on a little bit of like a monologue and it was one of
the more interesting interviews that I think we did and he talks about the poverty that like he feels like he and
the kids around him have have have kind of lived in and it's true it's like these towns tupo has elvest so that does
go a long way in terms of like an economy and tourism and it is like a nice down but um it's an interesting
experience when you start to get outside of talo and you start to like drive around more in the South and Mississippi
and you you you run into areas that our time capsules from like the 1950s and as
a filmmaker that's an interesting experience but as a human it's also uh it's heavy you know it's heavy you go to
a town that literally has you know like I said has is is kind of a time capsule so it's a weird amalgamation you know
but like one that uh was was was poetic and and very interesting definitely it's
like an extended field trip to one of the coolest places I bet really is really is it's a good way of putting it
also I think our favorite part about being down there is like get off their phones and they talk and they hang out
and they eat dinners and they cook I think for us like being from California grow up in Los Angeles everyone's so
tied to their computers and their phones and honestly my favorite part was just like eating barbecue outside listening
to pyas and and hearing them talk about stories was like for my soul at least we
very very uh healthy and very positive yeah just like disconnecting while reconnecting yeah Excel 100% that was
poetic you know I try that end scene where you guys are at the party with uh uh what's the Senator's name who opened
up the documentary Steve Holland Holland Steve Holland yeah yeah Steve Holland when you guys are sitting with him and
like his family and everything and then you go to the end with Kevin's family I'm like I want to go there it just
feels so wholesome it really did I know it does it's like like it's uh and like again we were we were there to talk to
them about a presidential assassination plot that like has that that deals with body parts that were like chopped up in
a hospital and they flew right past that they like didn't they I didn't mean to cut you off Chad but I do find I she
nailed it like it was just like there's a Simplicity that is just like intoxicating which is like let's eat
good food let's not judge each other let's share a bunch of weird [ __ ] stories and let's have a good time and
let's have a beer and then and let's do a lot of karaoke and sing a lot of Elda songs God I it was a it was a really fun
nine months for us that we spent out there you must have heard so much Elvis like so much Elvis music I was going to
say those n months how many facts did you learn about Elvis approximately that you did not know it it was interesting
there was a point in the documentary where I think I was like two months in at Tupelo and I was meeting a lot of
people and talking about a lot of people and I was actually tired and exhausted with how many times this had happened
with people I met where they would ask me they they would talk about graceand and I would be like well I eventually
I'd have to interject and say I have never been to graceand and then they would just like that was the ultimate
like stop like we need to go right now to grin so I I I remember like driving back to Memphis which is like 90 minutes
to get back to Memphis uh to go to graceand uh to to take the tour and uh you know graceland's cool but those
tours I have to say that those tours are like 3 4 hours long so it's like that that was like when I like I got my like
Elvis Ed got my got my master's degree in Elvis on on the graand tour um but no Elvis like yeah they play as I mean the
other cool thing is like you think you go there to be like um all right like let's go to on an important day like
Elvis the day Elvis died is like typically actually like the biggest Celebration Day or obviously a birthday
is big but it's like every week there's something else like oh this is the week that Elvis performed his first guitar
concert at Mila Middle School like and then it's like cool we're all going to go to mil middle school and like see the
celebration so Elvis is everywhere but uh it was fun I don't know chap we learned a lot about Elvis one of my
favorite factoids that didn't make it in and I have no idea if it's true or not but our main character called Kevin
Curtis is a uh uh has a a foot fetish he is he is very into into women's speak part of the documentary and uh I
remember him telling me that he has it on good authority um that he heard heard it from uh family members very close to
Elvis that Elvis as well had a foot fetish felt like it was another thing that spiritually connected him to the
king uh and it always it always found that always made me laugh but and also one my favorite images the first time we
got there I didn't even know it was Elis week which is like people fly from all over the world to come and I remember
just like walking by and like passing a man in eldis outfit Elvis impersonator then he turned the corner and see
another Elvis impersonator and then I turned another corner I saw like an elves Sone person like drinking coffee
and smoking a cigarette outside the coffee shop and like these images it was just such bizarre imagery then finally
ma told me that that it's Elvis week and that's why there was literally hundreds
of Elvis impersonators just walking around the town it was like a it was like I don't
know if you see being Johan malovich but there's this scene where he walks in and
it's just it's just a restaurant full of John M that was that was our experience out
I know seriously so setting Elvis aside for a moment and going back to the meat of the story which of course includes
Elvis I read that you guys typically look for three things going into film making do you mind telling us a little
bit about what they are and how they kind of applied to this story yeah uh I think like we talked about a little bit
but we're always looking for like a strong setting a strong location I think uh especially for me there's so much
stuff on Instagram and Tik Tok and you see so many images that when I watch a documentary I really want to travel to
places I have not been and learn about them and learn about the cultures so setting location is always really
important to us and no no better place than the birthplace of the king of rock and roll and then I think we're always
looking for larger than light characters in a way I found when um you have subjects who can uh be brutally open and
honest about their wants their desires their insecurities their failures their accomplishments that it really allows
them to like hold a mirror up to the audience and for some reason allows us as the audience I think to think about
our own lives and and thinking what are our desires and wants and needs and having someone Larger than Life perform
that role I've just always found it makes it easier for the audience to kind of think about their own lives in a way
and so we're always looking for like really interesting characters and then I think we're also always looking for
incredible twists and turns and stories where you do not know where they're going next and
there's kind of two types of documentary film making you have documentary films that are very like activist driving um
with like an an important message and those are super important for so many reasons I just think the as an audience
is you already know what the message is you already know who the good people are
who the bad people are and it's just a different viewing experience so for us I think we're always looking to subvert
expectations keep the audience on their toes we never want the audience to think
they know where the story is going next um and so finding locations great towns great settings great characters and then
a great story of twist and turns is kind of like the three things I think we're always looking for and I think you like
touched on something interesting too which it's like you I think we're actually at like an interesting time in
the world of documentaries and documentary film making especially at the the major platforms where um you
know I I think in the last couple years it's it's like fair to say that there is
a shift toward stories that people already have some familiarity or an understanding of and those
documentaries are fascinating too that are on like hey you think you know this topic but let me go ahead and subvert
your expectations or present a little bit of a different side or something like that it's a little bit of a
different type of documentary because those comes with its own challenges and obstacles over the course of Chapman and
and my own career I think that We've Ended to gravitate towards documentaries that most people and by most people I
mean 99 8 5% of people if you stop them on the street and ask them about the 2013 ricey Presidential assassination
story they wouldn't really know what that story is so they're coming to It For the First Time wild wild country was
like that too like yes people in in eastern Oregon certainly remembered the rash Nishi that they were around and and
and cognizant in the 80s but for most people where I come from in Southern California my age obviously had had had
no recognition um and it's interesting because I think that those stories that have the familiarity that have a name
that have you know just a little bit more name recognition usually do tend to do a little bit better on these
platforms so I think that's the way that the industry is going but for Chap and I
that's always like a big question mark is like do we want to make a story that people think that they know and and
figure out how to make it interesting from there or do we want to make a story that um you're going to have not zero
familiarity with and hopefully you're just along for the ride for all these twists and turns you know that's the
thing cuz I remember hearing of course about like the 2013 Presidential attempted assassination but it that was
the very tip of the iceberg in this story everything every time I thought I knew where this story was going it was
like nope we're going this way now yeah that that's part of the fun I think or at least what I'm an audience member
like that's what I enjoy I like being on the edge of my seat I like thinking that
okay I know who this character is and then boom they end up turning out to be something totally different or
unexpected and it it's we're trying to I mean it can sound crude but we are trying to make entertainment people have
busy lives there's a lot of things uh you can spend your time doing I think we take responsibility seriously that if
someone's going to sit down and press play we feel we owe it to people to uh to really give them an experience and
sometimes we do better at that than others but that's always the goal at least is uh every time you press play We
want to make sure you know you're going you're going on a ride I think you guys are in the the right mindset though with
the way you do it with like taking a story that most people will not be familiar with because I mean personally
I love those much more because I love being able to be like I just heard this story and none of you are going to know
about it but I need to tell you everything and now you need to watch this and I think it's also I think
people are starting to have an appetite for more like original and unique content too like slowly I think we're
going to get there because I think people are getting sick of even like you know the fictionalized like narrative
movies that are just kind of like being redone and it's the same thing and people are looking for Original Stories
and original content so I think like slowly people are going to come around to realizing that like
you want to learn something new like you want to go into something totally blind yeah we definitely hope so and I
think I I I'm the same way you are like when I see something about a story I didn't know like I'm so much more
inclined to want to call my friends or my family and about it discuss it and share it to me that's like the the best
part about doing this is talking to your colleagues at work and sharing stories about what you've seen and and what what
uh what impacted you so I hope so we we love these kind of off the be weird stories uh and and hopefully we'll be
able to continue doing them I think you guys are kind of definitely starting to become known for the the weirder stories
and just wild fascinating document our mom certainly think so she's like oh God what's this other one now she's she
wants she wants us to do like a great easy like a like a cooking documentary on yeah kind of make a great yeah you
could but you could flip it on its head discover something crazy about cooking knives in kitchens or anything's going
to happen oh yeah so what was different though about making this film than some others that
you've made in the past think we kind of touched on it a little bit but it it quickly became clear that it was going
to be impossible to like fact check or investigate a lot of these claims you know and so in the beginning we were
sitting there kind of twiddling our thumbs like what do we do here and I just think we decided early on like
let's just f embrace the madness and the mythology and the storytelling and it's
such a part of the culture and these characters like let's find a way to make that a tension point of the story um is
Kevin telling the truth you know he the story starts early on with him finding a
severed head in in a morg in a hospital which kind of kickstarts the whole path to the presidential assassination and so
so much of it for us became um exploring the humans inside of the story and maybe
less the um actual like True Crime facts if that makes sense and so I think that's what made this one a little bit
more difficult to make is yeah well it's like kind of on that point like what Chapman and I would like we always
talked about especially with our editor Neil Michael John who was like a big part of our character and our producer
Juliana and and and everyone on our team is like because we've made true crime documentaries before but we learn like
conspiracy is actually like a weird cousin to True Crime where it's like True Crime can rely on facts and like
motivation of individuals and like that is a part of the fun game of like who done it you know and we've made those
documentaries and we LED making those documentaries conspiracy is like this weird amalgamation of like well a the
conspiracy itself is super confusing so but but it needs to be like accurately or not accurate but it needs to be like
comprehendable in the editing of it right like it needs to be comprehendable to like a wide audience to understand
what the conspiracy is but then there's this whole side game of like yeah and is
this conspiracy real or not and then you're like cool that's a whole another thing that we need to like kind of dive
into and like balance the scales a little bit of like maybe it's true maybe it's not um but like and then and then
what was weird about this is like the whole conspiracy of Kevin's conspiracy and body part's conspiracy and then like
Everett's conspiracy that was above Kevin's conspiracy it got like City in the sense of like wait what is real and
what is not and like are people even understand understanding what the conspiracy is so so I feel like that was
the the genre of like we made kind of a weird conspiracy comedy documentary but the conspiracy was was the weird part to
to figure out was certainly my experience but I didn't mean to cut you off chat but I like that I don't even
think we succeeded at that either yeah I watch it and I'm like still confused the story but been three years
but you learn something new every time you watch it you're like oh yeah like oh maybe it does sense now after watching
for the hund times better than a town and people with like deep deep lore that you can't verify that it's all just like
hearsay 100% it's like pass through like telephone style that was my favorite part is like all the would kind of share
the same story but like little details with all change and so I was like some curl of Truth here you know but um it
gets built upon and built upon and for us that that was part of the fun and I just think the other kind of hard thing
about this one was like I'm not too worried about spoilers for a while but uh is like the first half of the
documentary is kind of made to convince you that one person committed this crime
um and then there's kind of like a big rug pull and a reveal that it was possibly someone else who had framed him
and so I think we had never really seen that in a documentary before like how do
we convince an audience 100% that this guy did it um when he didn't you know is difficult you know and so uh that was a
a process that took us a while to kind of figure out but like I said I think those kind of reveals and twists and
turns make it more fun so uh it was difficult but I think it made it more fun to make also yeah our producer for
our show we watched it at the same time we came into the office the next day and
we're like we're sitting here watching this and you actually forget that the man who's talking most of the time
you're sitting there and you're like wait how is he not in prison every now and again but then you're like okay wait
but there's so much happening that it doesn't even matter we'll get there yeah it's so like we set up the crime CRI
earlier which is someone tried to kill the president and then it cuts to a guy swimming in his outdoor pool who did it
so we you kind of know right away like okay I maybe didn't do it or what but then our job was like okay but now we're
going to convince you for the next 90 minutes that this guy most likely did do this and I think a lot of people the
experience you did which like he's not in jail but like a lot of this is adding up and um this is getting very strange
and and then I think you learn uh obviously that he was framed and set up and then you get to learn and meet the
new character which was for I mean it was funny too because do you know this documentary was almost like three parts
sorry in terms of the production which like we went made it Paul Kevin Curtis documentary and then this middle part
was like federal law enforcement going and interviewing them because they have a whole perspective and a isy journey
themselves and then the third part was obviously Edward Dutchy who is in prison and all the prison phone calls that we
did with him but it was interesting like federal law enforcement without like blazingly
saying it I could tell there was a little bit of understandable sensitivity of like listen we do a lot of cases and
of we understand that you want to make a documentary on the one out of 1,000 that
we arrested the wrong guy and we know that and we did and they're like you know we're not sure about on the concept
of this documentary because we did get it wrong and we don't want to come off as completely in that that our jobs
and I remember being like I don't think that's the case like I think a lot of people are G to understand like why you
made the first arrest you did like at least like that's the structure of how it work making the documentary you know
and uh it's been interesting because as since the documentar is come out I've very never have heard like oh yeah like
FBI really messed up this one I think I think everyone kind of knows that like follows the journey and gets why
certainly arrested arrested Kevin you know yeah there's never once during it that you're like wow like the the FBI is
the problem here like you're just like yeah I get it I I love in the third episode when FBI agents like reluctant
reluctantly admits that it was a pretty good frame job I always kind of I always
kind of appreciated that that was so good and I love when Kevin is like I don't even like rice like what are you
talking about that was the exonerating fact of the entire investigation was the fact that it was that too it's perfect
perfect for the like I don't think this guy made r that was one of our like early on with just like pre not pre-
interviewing but you know it's like you go to dinner with Laura or you know Jack
the brother or pauland or blah blah blah and like or the kids Kevin's kids and like you kind of definitely like picked
up early that like uh how excited they got when they found out how hard it is to make rice in because like me I was
not a biology major so it's like rice in like that it's nothing Kevin's intelligence for anyone but but like
they were I don't think any of us know the like chemical compound designs and they're like that's innocent
dude maybe it's the guy holding the Mena card over there yeah I think it's men guy over here exactly that's the other
thing too I like how you guys kind of sprinkle in a little bit about Everett Dutchy like in part one and part two and
then part three comes along and you're like oh [ __ ] yeah I remember that guy just from a little bit of Parts one and
two yeah that's really interesting you bring that up because that was honestly like a huge discussion point for us
while making this in the initial Cuts you didn't learn anything about him until until it was revealed that Kevin
had been framed but then it started to feel like a little cheap where you're like okay wow it's shocking but I don't
know this guy at all and right really tried to sprinkle him in a few times throughout uh I honestly wish we could
have figured out more ways to do it I think it I think it would have been interesting to even have done it a
couple more times but it was a little bit like an Agatha Christy novel where you're like yes you have to set up the
characters and the suspects and like that's actually really hard to do in documentary because you can't just make
things up and it so but uh I'm glad that you pointed that out because it was it was
fun to kind of find subtle ways to sprinkle in the real the real suspect uh throughout uh so that when it's revealed
that it's him you do have a little bit of a memory of who he is yeah it's effective definitely effective going off
that a little bit more there's so many things like we're talking about everything right now there's so many
things that happen in this case and you guys really do an amazing job of connecting it all by the end what was
the process like did you like lay everything out on the floor were you moving things
around the one of the fun Parts about this crime is that you know so three people got this poison in the mail where
were victims of it these three victims were you know major enemies so to speak of Paul Kevin Curtis the that was Frank
which is why the FBI obviously thought it was Kevin but what made it interesting is that you learned that
these three characters were also Everett the guy who actually did send the I were
enemies of his as well and so this is where it started to get a little complex in terms of like wow they share the same
enemies like how can we set this up in a way um and organize it in a way that audiences can kind of understand that
component of it and so you know we we had the note cards we had uh yes we had this the string on the walls I remember
walking in look watching M lose his mind because he was in charge of doing most of the research and and there are times
where M would just start ranting and I was like I'm not following anything you're saying right but uh sure enough
like I said I think we kind of figured it out by the end but I'm still not 100% convinced that we even know all the
facts that everything happen I don't think you ever could no tot no but you did do a great job of
connecting it it's easy to follow for sure by the end of it you get what's happening for sure yeah and like CHF
said my dad was screenwriter and he I think it's an Ernest hingu quote where he said writing is rewriting but I think
that's the same thing with like editing and that was certainly our experience was like more than other documentaries
we've made we have uh we really PL with structure a lot on this one we had we were moving sections around like to just
kind of set it up because it to go a little deeper on something that we've touched on is the concept of like hey we
wanted the audience to really think Kevin did this by the time the rug pull happens at the end of episode two where
you find out he didn't do it but that is as much of a plot game plot a A to B to
C to D on plot points as it is like a psychological descent in Kevin's mind as you feel like you real like for someone
to do a presidential assassination make rice and put it in envelopes of mail to the president like I think you really
need to feel like that person is psychologically capable of wanting to do something like that you know and that
was certainly like a big part of the editing and a lot of the aesthetic and the music and everything else that kind
of went into the series is like not just explaining like yeah how how kind of like how Kevin gets to this point you
know and it's a little bit of a personal Journey that that you follow with him to
go on but then again the the weirdest part of making this documentary was like technically none of that is true Kevin
didn't do so so you're kind of like always faking your way through to make it feel like he did in a certain way
just to set up the gag that he didn't do it so maybe it was worth it maybe it was
maybe this is the stupidest documentary when you explain it I'm like this sounds
so dumb sounds like so stupid like you guys spend three years of your life let us do this to tell like one joke like
one joke it was such a good joke though no it's so worth so much to work with fake your way just getting slowly
depressed on this podcast just real how stupid our documentary is no it's amazing I I dedicated probably four
hours total just sitting in my living room on a snow day I was like I think this is the best series I've ever
watched that's very nice of you that feels good that was great in the editing process one of my last questions for you
is was there anything that didn't make it in that you wish had or that you know just couldn't have there's actually two
sections that we wor on quite a bit that ended up not making the cut for one reason or the other one was that we had
like a pretty interesting um conversation and look into mental health and and Kevin's mental health and how
his family feels about what he struggling with and uh Kevin had like a very Frank and honest discussion about
medications he's been on and how certain medications have made him feel over the
years and why he doesn't want to take certain medications and um it was like a really raw and honest look into it I
think for time reasons we are never able to um quite figure out how to get it in
there but I I I thought it was like a really kind of just like beautifully honest look at at what he talks about
his struggles what that experience has been for family members I think one of the one of the real first reasons we
wanted to make this was when we were researching I kind of became obsessed with this Reddit thread and it was for
um family members who had lost loved ones to the qanon conspiracy and it was just their point of view it wasn't the
point of view of the conspiracy theorist and it like you would read these posts and it was such a strange combination of
being like really [ __ ] hilarious and equally heartbreaking and I'm like this is such a odd thing because it's so easy
to talk about conspiracy theorist or this and that but when it's a wife or a husband or a brother or a best friend
that's a little bit of a different experience to watch someone you love go through this and so that was kind of
diving into not only a conspiracy theorist story but what is it like for the people around this person was
important to us and I think the kind of conversation in the mental health really
kind of played into that I wish we could have included it but we couldn't her time and then the other interesting one
was um you know in 1992 Kevin our main character had uh and this is 20 years before the Ry is sent
to Obama had a a standoff with the Chicago Police SWAT team and had driven to an ex-girlfriend's house and entered
the home with a gun and then was threatening to kill himself inside the home and it turned into a big standoff
and this was also a big look into Kevin's mental health and what he struggled with and it was also a big
piece of evidence that the FBI used in the presidential Rising attack to say look this guy's unstable this is why we
beli that he did this and so all that was like a really interesting storyline and thread that would have added I think
another layer to the onion uh but ended up kind of on The Cutting Room floor yeah people thought there were too many
layers to the onions already no more layers it was it was unique like like Steve Holland could be a character in a
featur link documentary like his story from like and I know he's like a larger than life character but he also like
wielded like incredible effective power like in the Mississippi State Legislature and is responsible for like
an array of like unbelievable programs like for the people of Mississippi for the state of Mississippi like I it was
always like and I I think every filmmaker has this and and we produce as much as we direct so I've been on the
producing side of these conversations where it's like you're with a filmmaker that's like oh my God I could do like
six parts I could do eight parts like there is a bit of a Mis exploration in the state of Mississippi that to this
day fascinates me like and it's hard to explain unless you got to that state in a way but it is like every left right
turn you make every you can take a drive a highway go go anywhere on the highway
like it is a the most fertile ground for like such fascinating fascinating stories and people that I think there's
a reason that like William funner was from Oxford I think there's a reason that there's like the southern Noir that
like eccentricity is a religion down there that like they can tell stories the way they do and it was just I almost
felt like we were always having to restrain ourselves from being like Oh my god do we go make a 15minute documentary
on this section of Mississippi that's kind of T tangentially tied and of course you like never do because
eventually you're like Hey we're making a Netflix documentary and you really need to keep the narrative like as tight
as possible otherwise people will click off um but it was a unique experience just spending so much time down there
and just like God I wish we could have done like eight parts on this state and connected all these crazy pieces of
information together you're going to have to go back for it's calling me back talking myself into it right
now I do think even with the things that you didn't get to include like that conversation with Kevin about his
medical history his mental health history and even you know the incident that happened with his girlfriend I
think the conversations that you did include with one of his girlfriends and even his kids those conversations that
really shined through and kind of highlighted the the mental health section that you didn't feel like put in
there that's really that's really cool to hear yeah I think like a lot of it is implied or you kind of pick up on kind
of naturally and um I think yeah some of my favorite sections like yeah there's a
lot of funny Dark hilarious stuff but some of my favorite stuff was the stuff with his kids um and friends and family
and and hearing about their perspectives and kind of what they've been through I
think it just kind of added a level of heart and Humanity to the story and um I'm glad to hear that even if we weren't
able to include those sections it still kind of is inferred and you kind of feel
it in with yeah definitely all right I have two questions left for you guys one is serious and one is kind of kidding
when do you think Kevin Curtis's missing pieces is going to hit Netflix and are you going to help them work on it that
is an and you know what's funny is uh so I remember Uh Kevin when he sat down and
told us like listen he's bring this book called missing pieces I will say that when he handed it to me it was a little
shorter than I expected it was like you know I was expecting I was hoping for the the tune of of of research and a
little thinner than that so I was like okay I got to got to figure this out work to do some work on a little bit he
got got work like pump up the word count here just a little bit um but he was the
one that said like hey after all I I'm taking him out the story we've been interviewing him he's like I've come to
the conclusion that missing pieces is not a missing piece to my body parts conspiracy but it's something in my
personal life and it's it's been family you know and so I was like wow that was like very poignant and and powerful and
uh Kevin can just charm you like that like and genuinely too like like a sincere guy I but it the whole thing
started because the Secret Service stole his manuscript you know where they raided his home there was something so
funny to me that like it just feels like something he would make up or say and then it's like 100% true they took his
hard drives and he his manuscript and had to rewrite it from yeah maybe that's why it's smaller than I expected maybe
maybe the Secret Service is sitting on the the real expansive missing pieces that's out there authentic but I already
have the Injustice free missing pieces I think the government needs toas Missie I
remember going out to dinner with Kevin's family members and I would tell them that story about missing pieces and
it's not like Kevin was hiding that from them or something but I was like hey I think that like Kevin's in a spot where
this is he's like this is where he's at right now and I found this really beautiful and every single person I went
out to dinner with said that's that's New York TOS bestseller so that's that's what I hope it is I I I I hope it's a
New York is I want what that family wants but doubt it he's an incredible Storyteller he's got a imagination he's
really funny with words I'm I'm rooting for him I'm I'm hoping he can free missing
pieces someone needs to file a Freedom of Information Act to get yes get get the big one yes somebody listening get
on that go and then last question for you guys I'm so excited to see whatever you make next is there anything that you
have in the works or anything you want to tease or plug uh the thing that we're working on right now is we are working
on it's a big doc series for Netflix we were able to announce it I think on Christmas day but like we said we grew
up with sports and we are going to do very different than GSA tupo so I I'll brace you for that it is very not it'll
be interesting you like this time but it is a 10p part series on Jerry Jones Jimmy Johnson the F basically the the
the the Dallas Cowboys of the 1990s and Jerry Jones's story it's a big we're partnered with sky dance and NFL films
and we're doing it with Netflix and in the Sports World this story is a bit of a white whale because Jerry and Jimmy
Jimmy was the coach Jerry's the owner they have an interesting backstory where they won Super Bowls together and then
they went their separate ways we're we're able to interview all these characters along with Troy Amman and
Michael Irvin and N Smith so it's a very Sports one we have more volumes of Untold coming out um but we e and flow
like sports sports documentaries are stuff that we we love making and there's just a huge audience for that and it's a
great part of of the business that we do and then once we spend a couple years doing sports stuff we always end up
gravitating back towards like a Kings of Tupelo or W country or or something that's a little bit more off the beaten
path but chap any anything else to mention no I just remember being like man it's so weird being a documentary
filmmaker because we went from filming inside Kevin's camper so like the next week we were filming Jerry Jones on his
private jet and just like this such this is too weird our lives are too strange some we're excited for Dallas Cowboys
it's coming out this summer um and then uh we're just in the early stages of researching um some more strange op de
beating path stories and so amazing well thank you guys so much for all the extra
Insight I loved so much it was great so much for on thanks for watching and thanks for all the nice words we had
really fun that was so much fun chatting with them I loved that they were amazing yes
definitely so guys if you have not yet watched uh Kings of tup below you got to get on that it's still on Netflix it's a
three-part series and still somehow even throughout that hour-long conversation with Chapman and mlan we really only hit
the tip of the ice oh yeah it's G to it's one of those that you're going to want to tell everybody about after you
watch it it definitely is so look out for that we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird
[Music] [Music] [Music]

Today we are joined by Emmy award winning film directors, Chapman & Maclain Way to discuss the wild story behind their Netflix Documentary "The Kings of Tupelo: A Southern Crime Saga". This documentary was expertly crafted and features the often unbelievable folklore surrounding the 2013 Presidential Ricin Attacks. Haven't watched it yet? Check it out by visiting https://www.netflix.com/title/81903247

Connect with Wondery http://wondery.com/shows http://facebook.com/WonderyMedia http://twitter.com/WonderyMedia http://instagram.com/WonderyMedia

Brief Summary

Directors Chapman and Maclain Way discuss their Netflix documentary "Kings of Tupelo," detailing an Elvis impersonator's bizarre assassination plot against Obama.

Key points

Directors of Kings of Tupelo. Award-winning directors discuss their latest documentary about a bizarre Elvis impersonator story.
The Wild Story of Tupelo. A small town's eccentricities and a presidential assassination plot intertwine in this documentary.
Documentary Filmmaking in Tupelo. The directors share their experiences filming in Tupelo, highlighting its unique character.
Embracing the Weirdness. The filmmakers discuss how spending time with unique characters creates a family-like bond.
The Heavy Reality. Kennedy shares a poignant monologue about poverty in his community, adding depth to the documentary.
The Elvis Connection. A humorous revelation about Elvis impersonators during Elvis week adds a quirky twist to the narrative.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

You could pitch this as a narrative film, and no one would buy it!

Emphasizing the unbelievable nature of the story.

5:18WatchFeb 10, 2025

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

More from Morbid | Podcast

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.