When Suspects Are Smarter Than The Police | Forensic Files

There aren't that many cases where the suspects are smarter than the authorities. But in these four cases,
the police are completely outclassed. Mark Denclow was a gang leader accused of kidnapping, torturing, and murdering
a former member. But what police didn't know is that Mark was about to completely outsmart them. In July of
2015, Robert Huggin's body was found badly beaten with a fractured skull, lacerations across the chest, and
missing nipples. Robert had been kicked from the Gypsy Joker motorcycle club just days earlier. So, eventually, Mark
was identified as the lead suspect and brought in for interrogation. You're with a motorcycle club. You have
some affiliation with one. Is that right? I don't have any answers for the for questions like that.
Okay. Well, the reason I'm asking is that a few months back gentleman named Jeff Sudan, you know him? He threw your
name out in conjunction with kind of a repossession of a car, a collection of a car. That sound familiar to you?
No. Jeff Sudan almost might I'm not sure about that. It seems like sedan rings a
bell somewhere, but no collections of a car. No, I don't know. Mark makes it clear to the cops exactly
how his interrogation is going to go, stating that he simply won't be answering any questions he doesn't want
to. However, he's chosen to wave his right to an attorney, meaning he has to approach the interrogation completely on
his own. The cops ask a few more questions about Mark's background, but he quickly decides they've heard enough.
Okay, so this last time, how long? So, there's my background. That's it on Nicole. What else you want to know?
There's Nicole. Uh the problem here Nicole had a uh uh it Well, let me back up a little bit. How long have you been
in a relationship possible? I'm not going to answer any more questions about Nicole. I don't have any
more answers for you until I find out what you're talking about. Okay. You guys brought me in. I didn't bring you
in. I want to hear what you got to talk about. Well, I'm trying to get to that, but
part of that's going to involve how long you've known Nicole. Well, that's you're going to if you if
you don't want to tell me what the heck I'm doing here, say so. because I'm not going to sit here and give you a bunch
of my background so you can play whatever kind of game you're playing. This is kind of stupid, man. I just got
picked up and and treated pretty roughly. You can still see the the uh marks on my hands. This one was
completely asleep all the way here and thrown in a room, a complete silent room there. I want to know what the
heck's going on, man. Okay. As is common in many cases like this, Mark hasn't been told why he's been
brought in. However, he should have already put two and two together. After Robert was kicked from the gang, he
broke into Mark's house, tied up, and threatened Nicole, and stole a large amount of firearms as revenge.
Regardless, Mark is still refusing to answer any questions and trying his best to confirm why he's even there in the
first place. Nicole took off in a car that she may have uh purchased with assets that
belong to you or something like that, and then Jeff Sudan and a couple other guys kind of returned that car to you.
Does that make sense to you? Is that or attempted to? Or attempted to. So, if we got the story wrong, can you
help us out with that? I'm not going to straighten your story out. No, I'm not. Not until I find out
why I'm sitting here. Well, a few months before this car thing happened, um Nicole was at your house
and uh somebody busted in the house and uh roughed her up a little bit, tied her up. You remember that?
You know, I can't really answer to that. You're going to have to get that story from her.
Mark's suspicions have now been confirmed, and he's probably also linked it all the way back to Robert's death.
What's interesting, though, is that his body language doesn't change at all when
the cop starts to talk about the break-in. Usually, you'd expect some sort of movement or obvious discomfort,
but he actually remains completely still, only moving to display how ridiculous the cop's claims are.
Who did you tell about what did happen then? Oh god. Don't play with tons of people,
man. Okay. You give me some examples. No. Okay. No, I'm not going to sit here and name
names for you, man. But but I'll tell you what what uh I don't really understand why this stuff that you're
talking about with this dude and the Conor stuff. Why would that get handcuffs put on me?
Well, why would those handcuffs go on me? What did I What What did I do that was illegal in any of that stuff? What
did I even have to do with it? I wasn't even there for any of it. None of it. Not anything that you've talked about so
far. I was a long way away from it. So why would I get handcuffs put around my wrist for it?
Fortunately for Mark, there's a very simple way to get access to all the information he's looking for. All he has
to do is get a lawyer. In a criminal case such as this one, the police are required to give an attorney all of the
evidence proving the accused may be innocent or guilty. Many people have an incorrect belief that asking for a
lawyer is an inherent admission of guilt. But every suspect, guilty or not, has a complete unquestionable right to
an attorney. Asking for one at any point in the investigation is completely fine
and cannot be used against you in court. Over the next few minutes, the cops question mark further about Nicole and
her friends before finally deciding to bring up Robert. One of her junkie friends.
Bagger Bob. Yeah, they bring you. Yeah, I know who that is. He's a guy that got killed
about a year and a half ago. Okay. Yeah. Was he one of the ones who set this up with Nicole,
man? You know, you're gonna have to if you're trying to trying to like tie that into this or something like that, you're
going to have to talk to Nicole about that. Okay. So, was Bagger Bob one of your
friends, not hers? Well, you know, like like I said, you know, actually, hey, if now that [ __ ]
you're starting to bring his name into it and he got killed now, I don't think I have any other questions to answer for
you. Now, I think having a lawyer here might be a good idea. Okay. Sorry. I think that'd be a good idea if you're
starting to ask questions about a dead guy. Okay. Let me let me clarify something
with you. Okay. Uh do you want us to keep chatting or do you want to talk to a lawyer? I need to
know. Um you can keep chat. I'll keep listening a little longer before I before I call in a lawyer. Yeah.
Okay. Now that Robert has been brought in, Mark knows it's the right time to ask for a lawyer, but still decides
against it. This is probably because he's trying to show some amount of compliance. Each time Mark says he's got
nothing to say, he usually follows that up by giving police at least a small piece of information. Mark currently has
a dilemma. He must either choose whether to continue talking with the police in an effort to seem more innocent, but
risk slipping up and giving them too much info or completely shut down and refuse to give any more information. He
can't have it both ways. Now what? Well, I I'm not Am I arrested for anything? Uh, you're being detained at this point.
Okay, but I'm not under arrest by you. That's correct. Okay, then I don't need a lawyer. But
yeah, do you do you suspect me of something? Well, help us get this on because if you suspect me of doing a
crime, let me know so I can get a lawyer. You know what I mean? Well, I don't think we've accused you of
committing. No, you haven't. And that's why I'm still looking at these marks on my
wrists and going, man, what a way to treat somebody who's not suspected of doing a crime. Okay?
You know, what Mark doesn't seem to realize is that they technically have accused him
of a crime. In criminal law, being detained means to hold an individual in custody if there is reasonable suspicion
that they engaged in or are about to be engaged in criminal activity. Taking this at face value, the cops have just
explicitly told Mark they believe he's a criminal. It's clear that Mark believes
he knows what's up in the interrogation rule, but he's definitely missing out on
some crucial pieces of knowledge. Can you clarify anything for us about Baggerbot? You know, any stories that I
tell at all about that guy, they dip into club business. They It's club stuff. And I'm not going to tell
club stuff with you guys for nothing. That's just it's against my rules and it ain't going to happen.
Okay? You know, even when he was out of the club, uh that big a deal to tell you guys that
he he stole from the club and then uh when he got caught for it, he blamed it all on heroin, which was automatic kick
out for him. So, it's not like we found out about the heroin. We found out about
the stealing. And when we jumped about the stealing, he blamed it all on heroin. That's what happened. And he got
kicked out of the club like anybody would. Despite telling the cops that he isn't
going to say anything about Robert, he decides to talk about him and the club for another 20 full minutes, going on
huge tangents, and telling random stories completely unrelated to the case. The cops then decide to take a
break and leave Mark alone for a further 20 minutes before returning once again and asking if he'd like a lawyer.
So, a few times you've, you know, mentioned maybe a lawyer, maybe not. We'd like to talk to you further, but we
just want to make sure. I mean, it's your choice. If you want a lawyer, that's fine. We'll stop communicating
here. If you don't want a lawyer, we can keep talking and obviously has the right
to explain. Then I must be going to get arrested or you wouldn't have me call a lawyer in
here. Then definitely I want a lawyer. If I'm going to get arrested, I'm a lawyer. Yeah.
So, like I said, I don't know what your charges are going to be. That's being determined.
Yeah, man. If there's going to be charges. So, you guys are So, I just had to sit here now. I'm going to wait for
you guys to decide what my charges are going to be. What a bunch of crap, man. Why didn't you figure that out before
you came and got me if you're going to charge me with something? This is I mean, that's pretty pretty rude
treatment for somebody who isn't charged with anything yet. Well, part of it was determined on on
what you're able to tell us or willing to tell us. Yeah. Because you're the only one who
can talk yourself out of the hole you're in. Well, hole. I'm not in the hole, man. I mean, you
guys may think I'm in a hole, but I know I'm not in a hole because have you done
anything that you should be arrested for lately? I know I haven't. But it turns out Mark was absolutely in
a hole. About as deep a hole as you could manage to get. After a long legal battle, Mark and another club member,
Chad Ericson, were both charged with kidnapping and torturing Robert Huggin to death. and as of 2022 were sentenced
to life behind bars. But unlike Mark, Debab made the cops look outright stupid when he was brought in for allegedly
assaulting and robbing the owner of a nightclub. The baby aka Jonathan Kirk was brought in for an interrogation. But
little did the detectives know he was about to completely outsmart them and show exactly how you should act in this
situation. What's your full name? Come on. Come on. We just want We just want to
get it for you. This is just a format. Just tell your name and all that stuff. Immediately, it's obvious that this
isn't going to be an easy one for the detectives. Kirk starts off by refusing to answer any of the officer's
questions, even just regarding his own name. He's already been read his Miranda rights, informing him that he has the
right to remain silent. So, it seems as though he's choosing to do just that. Interestingly, however, he is choosing
to wave his right to a lawyer. And let's be honest here. It's not because he can't afford it. The best course of
action if you're ever put in this scenario is to stay silent and ask for a lawyer. But this time, Kirk is confident
that he'll be able to wrigle out of this himself as long as he chooses his words
carefully. An incident occurred at the hotel 1500 Southwest 1st Avenue that you were there for. Correct.
What incident? An incident. You You had an altercation with somebody? No, you didn't. Did you have a business
dealing with somebody? No. You didn't? No. So, somebody didn't bring you $20,000
in front of the hotel in your SUE? No. Somebody had somebody bring $20,000 that wasn't theirs and lied to them and
told them that it was for an event of theirs on the 31st and lied to them. That person once he
realized they was doing bad business said nah and left for his $20,000. Okay. So you didn't count
and got my contact information to do business the right way. That's what happened.
What time was it? I don't know. every time they told him, whatever time, whatever time the cameras
show me not robbing no damn body that time. Kirk is claiming that he had nothing to
do with anything that happened outside. His story is somewhat unclear, but he's essentially saying that his manager was
talking with an event promoter about playing at a nightclub called Cafe Iguana Pines. But it turns out the money
that they were offering was stolen and the promoter was acting strange during the deal. So instead of taking it and
going through with it anyway, he told them to get their act together and left without an argument. This of course does
not explain the altercation outside that was clearly caught on camera. But with the footage unclear and no witnesses
nearby to identify the asalants, as long as Kirk sticks to his story, theoretically things should be perfectly
fine. Common sense. Common sense. You know what I made to even be down here? the pro a promoter
booked me at that hotel. I didn't pay to be at those. That was paid for. You' let me room. You would have saw
close to a4 million dollars cash legally or hard earned money. I don't got to take nothing from nobody, bro.
Well, let me ask you this. I will go outside here right now and throw $10,000 in the air. Like, I do not
care about no money. I don't Was there an argument? No, it was an argument. I didn't argue
with a soul. I didn't argue with a soul. My voice was never raised. Never aggressive language
from me. None of that. No fight. None of that. No, I ain't seen no fight, man. Nothing's taken. We shouldn't be in
no robbery, bro. So, when y'all get done doing what y'all doing, y'all need to do
y'all job. Y'all need to follow your process. Y'all need to arrest whoever g these false allegations, bro. This
[ __ ] While it may just look like Kirk is flexing his rapper money here, this is actually a very good point for
him to bring up in this situation. If he's doing random $30,000 deals on a weekday and paying for hundreds of
thousands of people per month, what does he need $80 and an iPhone for? The further he can place himself from this
event, both literally and figuratively, the better. From Kirk's point of view, he was nowhere near that crime. He had
no reason to commit that crime and he has sound and reasonable explanation for his whereabouts at the time. However,
from the detective side, a crime was committed and Kirk's vehicle was right there as it happened. So, they need to
try and extract the information needed to piece his day together to come up with a story that Kirk cannot argue
with. That forces him into a confession. When I encountered you in the hotel, you
came back to the uh the concier the counter. Where were you coming from at that point?
Prime. Prime. Whatever. Whatever the hell I went to eat. I went to get some food.
Where is that? I don't know, bro. You don't know? No. How'd you get there? In the car, bro.
What kind of car was it? Car you drove? Somebody else drove? A Uber, bro. A Uber?
Yeah. What kind of car was it? Small car, SUV, truck. What? I don't know. Let's talk about what
matters. Talk about what y'all need to get me about this stuff. When I'm driving in
the car, what I went to go eat, what time I went, that don't have nothing to do with the fact I ain't robbed a damn
soul. Me, nobody around me. Ain't nobody robbing nobody. Let's take the word robbery out the
picture. So, while we here, we taking the word robbery out the picture. Y'all, y'all
are robbery detectives. This is robbery unit. That's the second word he said. That's the second word he said when he
came in here. A robbery. Come on, bro. Okay, listen. He told me he asked to question me about
a robbery when I walk in my hotel. Uh, robbery. I had every answer to the question you needed right there. Whoa,
that ain't it. That's false. Throw that out the window. We talking about robbery, bro. It's nothing for me to
talk about. I didn't rob. So, do you think that we we just woke up this morning and decided to just
I think y'all got a phone call from somebody that that's already a liar. I know they're a liar. Got a phone call
somebody that's a liar and y'all bought it. Y'all believed it. Y'all got me in here and y'all put me in handcuffs,
brought me outside the hotel handcuffs, cameras and [ __ ] all on me. Come on, bro. This [ __ ] is bad for what I got
going on and I ain't need to do [ __ ] to that man. Even without a lawyer present, Kirk
knows exactly what to do. He currently has the upper hand in this interrogation and needs to keep it that way. The cops
are searching for anything that puts Kirk at the scene of the crime, but by redirecting the conversation away from
that, back to what he thinks is actually important, there's no realistic way that
they'll be able to get what they need. But even though he's winning, it's still worth noting how strange it is that he's
not asking for a lawyer. Kirk obviously knows exactly what to do in an interrogation and has clearly spent time
learning what to do. If that's true, he should also know that there's next to no
scenarios where lawyering up will harm his case. But whether it's an ego thing or just a lapse in his thinking, Kirk is
definitely still winning this interrogation. But he's about to start absolutely dominating.
We talking about criminals. When when I do business, it's legally It's legal. It's legally binded.
It's legally binded. Everything I do, you have to sign a contract. You got to sign a contract.
It's a contract right now. That whole incident happened and nothing nothing went wrong. Nothing nothing
happened. There was no not there was no fight. There was no scuffle. There was no I ain't fighting
nobody. I ain't fighting nobody. But y'all know it's too much. Y'all know too many lies. You get what I'm saying?
That's why y'all got to move backwards like that, bro. Like you're saying you're saying that they're
lies, but you don't you we you don't know what we what we have going on. Okay. I know. I know. If y'all I know if y'all
had proof of me robbing somebody, we wouldn't even be talking. Y'all would have cuffed me. I would be charged with
it. That's what I know, bro. That's what I know. Now, while this isn't necessarily true in every case, it is
absolutely true here. If you're in an interrogation room and the cops are trying to find out details of the case
and accusing you of a crime instead of charging you immediately, it very likely means that they're missing the details
needed to charge you. In the vast majority of cases, an interrogation is only done to extract a confession when
they don't have enough evidence to easily convict you otherwise. There are a few other niche scenarios such as
trying to figure out why you committed a crime, but it's often very easy to distinguish why exactly you're there
based on what you know about the event and what questions they're asking. If the cops know that you're guilty and
have irrefutable evidence, cooperation has a lot of merit. But if they can't prove you did what they say you did,
stay silent and ask for a lawyer. Especially if you're innocent. I know your side of the story. my side
of the story is I ain't I ain't done I don't have a side to I ain't done nothing to nobody
and before something could be done to me and before something could be done to me
I realized I was dealing with with a a bad business and I remove what why you said was
I already told y that you want to rewind this you going to rewind it bro I already told y'all bro my story not
going to come out different no matter how many times I said it bro it's not bro it's right here you press stop and
rewind and play. We going here. Why I said it was bad business, bro. Come on, bro. There's nothing blowing my phone up
all day, y'all. He needed my help. But his event, he already was in in deep water cuz he's already doing and I see
why he's already doing bad business. You see what I'm saying? He has an event that wasn't going to go as planned. He
needed me to make up for that. He needed me to cover his ass. So, he brought in another person, lied to him, swindled
him. He thinking he coming to book me for a whole different event. And they tricking him. Got him paying me to come
do a walk through tonight. Come on, bro. The nigga's full of [ __ ] And matter of fact, check them cameras.
Y'all got crime scene investigation unit out there. Check the cameras. See him meet up with somebody else in the lobby.
Ask him, "Hey, who is that?" Ask them. Follow up on what I'm telling y'all. That's what we're trying.
I mean, [ __ ] I mean, [ __ ] At the end of the day, at the end of the day, I would expect people to act on
common sense. Anyway, the cops have realized that they're definitely not getting anything out of
him for now. He's told his side of the story and made it clear that it won't be changing no matter what they say. So, as
is the protocol here, the detectives decide to leave the room and spend some time outside trying to come up with
their next move. This is also often done as it gives the suspect time alone in the room to sit and build up anxiety. In
many cases, it can actually be the difference between breaking through a suspect or not. But in this case, Kirk
literally just shut his eyes and went to sleep. This dude really does not care. However, it seems as though the
detectives couldn't come up with their next step and decided that nothing was going to make this guy budge. The next
time a detective returned, it was regarding the security of Kirk's belongings that had been left in his
hotel room. Even though he hasn't been convicted yet, he was still the prime suspect of this investigation. So, he'd
be spending some time in jail while they figured out what to do and gathered all
the evidence they could. So, they just had to figure out what to do with his stuff while he was locked up. But
obviously, Kirk refused to let them touch his stuff and just let the hotel deal with it. Kirk was facing a possible
sentence of up to 15 years in prison, plus a $10,000 fine, plus any charges they could slap him with for the
battery. That's only if they could gather enough evidence, though. Evidence they absolutely were not getting from
Kirk or the blocked security footage. That was the only evidence the crime even took place. So just after 48 hours
in jail, the baby was released and sent on his way. Just 2 months later, all charges were dropped and he remained a
free man. But Jeff Pearson's story by far trumps the others as he wasn't a famous rapper. He was just a heroin
addict. Reports began flooding into the local PD when alarm bells began to sound
in a local 7-Eleven, but there was no suspect to be found anywhere close. Police decided to expand the search and
that's when they heard commotion in a nearby house. Without any other leads, they stormed in discovering Jeff inside
sitting next to a gun. And that's when Jeff was arrested and brought in to be interviewed. The next 24 hours were
captured on police cameras within the interview room. But conversely to most footage similar to this, it was
originally uploaded to the suspect's own YouTube channel on the 25th of September, 2011. This is the first sign
of what makes Jeff a cult figure and a legend within the interrogation community. Jeff was held in police
custody for almost an entire day, but all of the footage from the three interrogation sessions held barely 15
minutes. Given that robbery and arrest took place within the state of Georgia, the usual minimum sentence would be
around 10 years imprisonment, ranging up to a maximum of life without parole. But
it would transpire that Jeff wouldn't end up doing a minute of this time. And instead of serving multiple decades
behind bars, he spent a day being served drinks and candy while delivering a master class in what to do while in
police custody. The following footage shows us in stunning detail what methods the cops will try on you and how to
dodge them like an absolute pro. The footage starts with Jeff handcuffed in a small windowless room dressed in prison
scrubs. It's clear he's already been processed and spent some time in a cell, likely while the cops spent some time
gathering the evidence and prepared to question him. Am I under arrest? For now,
I'm under arrest? Yeah, I I'll explain everything. But before I talk before I explain myself to
you, before we talk to each other, I need to read your rights. Okay. What am I under arrest for?
Well, like I said, I need to read your rights first. Obviously, the charge is robbery. Okay. Jeff immediately opens by
asking if he's under arrest and on what grounds. From the first moment, it's evident that Jeff has done his research,
as this is exactly what you should be doing in this situation. From here, there are two options. If you're not
being arrested or detained, you can state that you're also not obligated to stay and answer questions, and you
should be completely free to leave the interrogation. If you are being arrested, you can then immediately ask
for a lawyer and stay silent until you're provided with one. These options give you the best chance of stopping the
police in their tracks and allow you to create the best defense possible. What's
amusing is that when you're being arrested in America, the officer is actually legally obligated to remind you
of this. Take a listen to the Miranda warning that this detective reads out to Jeff.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can will be used against you in the court of law. You
have the right to talk to the lawyer for advice before he question you. If you cannot afford to hire a lawyer and you
want one, a lawyer will be provided for you. If you decide to answer questions now without a lawyer present, you'll
still have the right to stop answering questions at any time. Does that make sense? You probably heard these before,
haven't you? These three points are incredibly important and are often overlooked by
the average citizen due to the panic of being arrested in the first place. Alongside this, because of how much we
hear these lines in media such as police shows and movies, most people completely
glaze over it when they're being read these rights and fail to take into account that they're actually being
provided with useful information that allows you to stay safe and protected while in police custody. What this
detective didn't mention though is that if you ask for a lawyer while under arrest, they are not allowed to continue
questioning and you have a complete unquestionable right to refuse to answer any questions they may ask until you're
provided with an attorney. The detective also ends the rights with a snide remark
about Jeff's past, meant to subconsciously remind him that he is a previously convicted criminal. Do you
understand your rights? Do you understand your rights, Jeff? Yes or no? You understand?
We're getting paid more than you are. So, we can sit here for a long time, man. I just need you to answer me yes or no.
Do you understand your rights? Let's get through that question. Do you understand
what I read you? Do you comprehend what I read you? Jeff has been explicitly told he has the
right to remain silent. So, that's exactly what he's deciding to do right here. The leading detective leans back
in his chair. This was meant to show that he's unconcerned with Jeff's silence and that he can stay there as
long as necessary. But body language like this usually indicates some form of unrest. It's clear that the detective
knows that this is going to be a tricky few hours for them. If you got something that says you
didn't do this robbery, this is your chance to talk to us. Okay, good cop. Uh, no. Usually I'm the prick.
You look like the prick. I am. If it's dominance we're talking about, Jeff just took everything the
cops had and dumped it in that garbage can. I'm I'm not asking if you want to talk
to me at this point. I just want to know, do you understand what I read to you? So, am I under arrest?
Yes, you're under arrest. I'm getting back to the cell. I don't talk to you [ __ ]
Okay, fair enough. In this first round of interrogation, Jeff exhibited exactly the correct
behavior given his current circumstances. He knows the cops have nothing on him. They wouldn't be there
talking to him in the first place if they did. So he stays silent. And so it's off back to his cell he goes. But
two hours later, he's brought back to the same room for round two. You wanted a coke?
Yeah. You going to be able to pop it open or you need me to? I need methadone. You need methadone?
Yeah. You get me that methadone or I don't have any. Do you have a medication for it or I mean a
prescription for it or what do you need methadone for? Cuz I'm a [ __ ] junkie and you guys I
can't make no meth. I'm going to go through withdrawal here in a minute. A can of soda is all Jeff requested
before he returned to the interrogation room. But he immediately mentions the withdrawals that he's likely already
starting to feel. However, methadone, the drug Jeff asked for at the start of this conversation, can be used to
significantly reduce the effects of the withdrawal. It can even reduce the cravings he's also probably been
experiencing for the entire time he's been in police custody. How long you been using heroin?
Long time, buddy. 10 years, 15 years. I hardly been alive that long. What are you trying to talk to me about here?
Talk to you about what happened last night. Look, here's the deal. Either you're in
a bad bad set of circumstances or you went and committed an armed robbery last night.
I'm in a shitty uh wrong place at wrong time. Obviously, I didn't commit no [ __ ] armed robbery.
All right, then let's talk about this. Let's Let's I don't talk to the police, man.
Jeff is clearly through with the personal talk and wants to get back to the matter at hand. In his eyes, he's
been arrested for something he didn't do and wants to get out of there as quickly
as possible. Okay. I've been through the system, buddy. I know. I know you have. I know you have.
You're not my friend. I'm not your friend. You're trying to [ __ ] get me. You're
trying to get All you're trying to get is some [ __ ] stupid ass [ __ ] confession. And you're not going to get
one, Jeff. I'm not going to get a confession out of you for nothing. Exactly. Because I didn't trying to get
a confession out of you. Okay. I'm going tell you, I ain't commit no armed robbery. And y'all ain't got no
[ __ ] evidence saying I did. Let me go. All you did is find me sitting in my buddy's house cuz my [ __ ] buddy's
dogs going ape [ __ ] I go outside. There are cops everywhere. And they spotlight
me. They say, "Come here." I say, "What's up?" They search me. I ain't find nothing. What's up?
Let me read this yet. Cuz I'm not going to sign it. You don't have to sign it, but let me
read it for you. Okay. I'm not signing nothing. You don't have to sign it. The irony of
this cop saying he's not trying to get Jeff while he has him handcuffed in an interrogation room questioning him is
very amusing. But even through all this, every part of what Jeff said here is so
perfect it almost sounds rehearsed. It's an incredible display of personal legal
defense and is even more impressive when you layer it with the fact that Jeff is
almost definitely starting to experience withdrawals. I also want to highlight the point Jeff made about how cops are
simply trying to force a confession out of him. One of the main techniques used in these interrogations is the Reed
technique developed by a former cop and psychologist in the 1960s after he extracted a confession from a man
accused of murdering his own wife. The technique consists of nine steps, beginning with a polite discussion about
why the suspect is being accused of the crime, followed by using certain body language and actions within the
interrogation as a display of guilt. The method ends with offering the suspect two alternative statements they can
agree with, one of which is slightly more acceptable than the other, but whichever is chosen admits guilt and is
counted as a confession. This method forces the suspect into a corner and is exceedingly good at extracting false
confessions from innocent suspects. In fact, the original case that technique was formed around fell apart after
discovering that the man in fact did not kill his wife and was tricked into giving a false confession. Absolutely
next level gaslighting. Tell me what happened last night. Plain and simple. Your your side of the story.
I'm not talking to you. I don't know where you All right. This is what I don't understand.
I know, but this is what I don't understand. Jeff, you were sitting there talking
just like you were ready to sit here and tell me what happened last night and then all of a sudden I read that to you
and you screw it. I ain't talking to you. I want a lawyer. I don't understand that. What What changed? Just in
cuz I told you what I already told you what happened. You didn't? How didn't I? You didn't tell me what happened last
night. How didn't I just tell you what happened? But now you've handcuffed me and I can't
talk to you because you asked for an attorney. So, okay, that's fine. But I will tell you right now, you're still on
a hold for a robbery. I know. I don't know why I need a [ __ ] lawyer because uh obviously I
didn't do nothing and obviously you guys know I didn't do nothing because I've been arrested for the same [ __ ]
before and you guys don't interview me this much. So, wham bam, thank you for the coke. Put me back in a cell. That's
my home. refuge. Yet Jeff has now asked for a lawyer and is once again refusing to answer questions,
but we're only halfway through this footage and Jeff's ability to defend himself and completely destroy this cop
only gets better from here. Here's where the deal is. I have enough evidence like what
of the armed robbery. Okay. But you know, if if you're saying you didn't do it, you need to give me your side of
the story. I didn't do it. Okay. Well, give me your side of the story. You got to I mean, convince me
because I got a lot of evidence. I got a lot of physical evidence. Well, like what?
Why don't we Why should I tell you that? This is where the detective starts to become desperate. He knows he's running
out of time and so has completely abandoned any elaborate techniques or methods to try and get information out
of him. He's now instead moved on to essentially just threatening him with false claims of evidence that he can
easily use to convict Jeff. If all of this was true, he'd likely be trying to use it to intimidate Jeff into panicking
and giving up more information. But instead, he uses a flimsy rhetoric, claiming that because Jeff hasn't helped
him, he won't help Jeff. There's only a couple pieces of evidence I'm missing. Name them.
What's that? Name? Why? Why don't you do that? You haven't helped me out at all. You
give me a little bit, I give you a little bit. We go back and forth. I give you one my piece of evidence. Now, give
me a little something. All right. What time you get over to Aaron's house? You know, I know anything I say here can
and will be used against me. Sure, but anything you say here, I can also tell your your parole officer you
help me out. That doesn't mean dick. Now, the detective is desperately trying to bargain with Jeff. If he helps the
cops out, they'll put in a good word with his parole officer. But Jeff immediately realizes that means
absolutely nothing. What does a gold star mean if you're stuck in prison for 20 years? This further enforces the idea
that cops have absolutely nothing to convict Jeff with and also shows that they know they're running out of time.
Jeff has asked for a lawyer, yet they're still sitting there questioning him, as
if that's not a blatant violation of the rights that they have read to Jeff on three separate occasions. They know that
if they don't get anything out of him soon, their time will run out. And Jeff is watching the clock closely. For the
next four minutes of the interrogation, Jeff continues to deny and combat anything the police say to him. They
bring up the gun that he was found with, continue to try and strike a deal and even try to scare him by taunting him
with what being back in prison would be like, and without any of the drugs he's grown a dependency to. But throughout
all of this, Jeff stays totally stonefaced. He knows he's almost won. I'm done, man. [ __ ] this. I'm not even
answering. All this [ __ ] that I just said is going to be [ __ ] written in the discovery now, right?
What? You haven't said nothing. I mean, every little stupid thing that you've asked me, dude, is going to be in
the discovery. I'm not even going to do discovery. Who the prosecutor is? Okay. So you I mean you you halfway know the
system, how things work, you halfway don't. Am I right? I half ass know that the only reason I
came up here is to get a [ __ ] Coke. Okay. And I got it. But now with a butterf
figure, that's not going to happen for a while. What? The butterfinger? Yeah. Why not?
[Music] I need to go to the hospital. I'm pumping up blood. Let's go to the hospital.
For the last few hours, the police have been questioning a man who is clearly in
pain, denying him access to the legal prescription drug that would help him deal with his issues, and questioning
him repeatedly on a crime for which they have no evidence for. All the while, Jeff dealt with this as casually as
possible, asking for sodas and chocolate bars. Jeff knew misspeaking at any point
could lead him down a slippery slope. So, he exerted his rights in the perfect way. And 12 hours later, it's recorded
that he was released from custody and sent on his merry way. It's also reported that from here, Jeff began to
turn his life around. He's off heroin and now spends his time uploading to the same YouTube channel the footage from
this video was uploaded to. He makes music and even gives extra tips on how to avoid the police tricks. But what
happens when the suspects think they're smarter than the detective, but get quickly put in their place? Well, that's
exactly what happened to David Wright on the 17th of February, 2019, when he and
his friend Christopher headed to a drug deal at 3:40 a.m. But this was no ordinary drug deal. It was actually a
setup for a robbery on both sides. David demanded his buyers hand over their belongings, to which they responded by
pepper spraying Chris and running. Seconds later, David drew a revolver from his waist and fired a single shot
into Raul Cuadros's chest, killing him instantly. David and Chris fled the scene and buried the revolver in a field
and went about their nights confident there was no way they could be caught. But unfortunately, they were almost
immediately identified through multiple cameras around the area everything went down in. David was brought in two days
later, but still believed the cops would never find him guilty and that his extraordinary intellect would carry him
through the case. How wrong he was. So, like I said, I mean, it's already been in the media. He four people have
been arrested. It's not like we don't know what happened to some extent, you know, but there's always more that we
don't know from every single party, right? Everybody has a little piece of the puzzle. We don't necessarily get the
truth from everybody. So, I would like to hear from you what happens. Well, I have no clue because I I'm just
now hearing about this. So, I mean, the whole I don't know what you're talking about is kind of out the
door at this point. I got several people who have already identified you. You're
identified on video. So, it's not a question of that you were there. It's more a question of what led up to this.
So, I don't think this is what was actually supposed to happen, right? So, you're just going to play that that
you have no idea what happened cuz you weren't there? I was not. No. Not only was David identified by
multiple people through CCTV footage, but he also had no alibi and Facebook messages were recovered discussing
details of the alleged drug deal. David was there at the time of the murder. The
detective is just trying to uncover the details of exactly what happened and why. But David is having none of it and
has a plan to outplay the detectives. It's not helpful to you really to just be quiet and not say anything. Cuz what
I have are people who are looking out for themselves because they don't want to catch charge. So they're going to
dime you off. They're not looking out for you. So you believe somebody that's going to
tell you that somebody else did something to save their own ass? Well, with all the additional evidence,
yes. I've been out of jail for all of a week and a half. I've spent almost every
minute of it with my girlfriend. As for did I plan to kill anybody? Did I kill anybody? No, I didn't.
So, when I look at the GPS on your phone, it's not going to tell me that. It's going to tell me that you were with
your girlfriend the whole time that you never were were over at Jack in the Box.
It should. The only reason you might tell me that is cuz maybe you didn't take your phone
or maybe somebody else had my phone. It's been known to happen quite often. Actually,
my phone has been I left it in one person's car and it took me a day and a half to get it back.
When was that? Uh, that was earlier in the week. And then I let somebody use my phone. They
were supposed to just go to 7-Eleven to go meet somebody that was selling something to on Offer Up.
Mhm. And they had apparently seven or eight things that they had to do between then
and when they got back to the house. So, what day was that? I don't remember. And who was that?
That was a guy that goes by Memphis. It's a nickname, I think, is uh first name is Joe, black guy.
David's only current alibi and defense is that maybe somebody else had his phone and was at the drug deal instead.
He also backs up his story by saying he doesn't remember exactly which day everything occurred on, something that
can't directly be proven or disproven. However, for this to be true, that person with his phone would also have to
dress exactly the same as David, have access to his Facebook account, and according to his own description of the
perp, change the color of his skin. It's not looking too likely. You know why you're here and what's
going on. I mean, at this point, you're literally the last person we've talked to, and the only person that has an
allegiance to you is Chris. I mean, obviously people are not going to be shy about telling us who was there and who
did what. And plus, we have video. There's video at the Chevron. There's video at the Shell.
You know that we have all your co-uspects under arrest. All I want from you is a reason. I
understand what happened. I just need to know why. The only person I know you have under
arrest is Chris. Okay. We have Cody under arrest. And we have Tana Hill. What's his name? Ray.
He's in custody as well. We have his car, the car that was used, the car that was at Chevron in our impound.
They are all under arrest. Chris is under arrest because we viewed messages on the phones that organized picking you
up. Those same messages from you to Cody, we have them on their phone. We've already viewed them. We have the
Facebook communications between Chris and Briana setting up the deal that happened where you guys showed up at the
Chevron and walked down. This is how this plays out. Your girlfriend's going to be dumb enough to provide you an
alibi on a murder charge and then she's going to get roped up in a murder as an accessory.
If you care about that person, you have just set her up for failure. And if you want your girlfriend jammed up cuz you
just set her up for it, then that's your choice. You know, you can't threaten me
with jamming her up. It's not a threat, man. I'm just telling you how it plays out. Like, I'm going to
go talk to her and she's going to be dumb enough to lie for you when I got video evidence that she you weren't with
her. Like, dude, I get it. Like, you had a quick come up, right? I I get it. I don't I don't think you were a stone
cold killer. I don't like if you accidentally shot the dude cuz you flinched or you got scared because of
something he did, now is the time. If you come up with that stuff later, nobody is going to believe a word you
say. How the would somebody accidentally shoot somebody? Cuz if your finger's on the trigger,
it's called a sympathetic reflex. It happens to police officers all the time. I think that's a term that's been come
up with just to cover their asses for shooting people. Well, you can try to make it about that.
I'm talking about you. I wouldn't know. Never shot anybody. There is a lot of merit for staying
silent in an interrogation like this. In fact, in most cases, it's usually the best course of action, coupled with
asking for a lawyer as soon as possible. But here, David is trying to outright deny any association with the case, even
though he's been directly linked to it through multiple sources. All he's doing now is making it worse on himself and
those around him. But his ego is telling him otherwise. Where do I go from here? And you're the
police officer. Reverse roles. You're you're the cop. You're sitting over here trying to figure out if this dude has
any remorse for what he did or if he's just worried about getting in trouble. How would you proceed?
I'm not worried about getting in trouble. I didn't do [ __ ] I'll just be upfront with you. We got
Cody's phone. The one that shows your phone number and your address and the communications between you two. Like, I
have it. Like, I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just laying it out for you because
I met up with somebody doesn't mean that I went with them to go do something. This seemingly plain statement actually
carries more weight to it than you might realize. The detective presented David with a piece of concrete evidence that
he's saying puts him dead to rights. To which he responds by confirming he had indeed met with Cody, but it went no
further than that. Again, it seems like nothing. But now that detectives know this tactic works on David, they can
attempt to use the wealth of other evidence they have to slowly extract a full confession from him.
Okay. So, when did you meet up with them? 1 2:00 in the morning, something like that.
On what day? Maybe Saturday or Sunday. Okay. Where did you meet up? Uh over by my house.
Okay. And who was with him? Dad, I don't know. Was he alone? When I met up with him, yes.
So, why did you meet up with the dude that you didn't know? Because my friend Chris had asked me to.
Okay. And so, what happened after that? Well, he had tried to proposition me for
a handgun. Mhm. And I told him I didn't have one. Okay. So, and you say, "Why?" No. So you guys meet up. You have this
conversation. Then what happens? He leaves. And how did he leave? Well, I walked back to my house and he
walked back to whatever vehicle he was in. Okay. Why did you leave that out when we
first started talking? You think that might be important that the guy under arrest for murder came to your house
looking for a gun? Well, if I had given him a gun, then I think that that would be important.
Well, it shows his intent. I mean, of course, it's relevant to the case, right? People buy guns for all sorts of
reasons, man. Yeah, but in this instance, there was a murder. So, they went on their way. Just
the Cody dude. And did you actually talk to the other guy in the car? How does he
know who you are then? Maybe my name was mentioned when they were coming to meet me.
But he didn't see you. Unless he seen me when he was parked. But you didn't see the car.
I didn't look for the car. Unless I'm coming to meet somebody at their vehicle, I don't ask what vehicle
they're in. Well, that's not and again, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not trying to
insult you, but that's not very smart. Meeting somebody to sell guns and you're not going to watch around you to see
where they come and go. Not very smart. He was referring to me by somebody that I trust.
Okay. I would still be on my six. So, you clearly have, you know, distrust of the police.
Is that fair to say? I distrust almost everybody. Being honest with you about the
information that we have, trying to give you an opportunity. And I I I mean, you've already said flat out you don't
believe that that he has that information. But I mean, with everything he's told you, you have to know that
what he's telling you is true. Well, whatever you have, you've got from people that may not necessarily be
giving you information for the best of reasons. So take the people out of this. Take them out. Who cares about the
people? We got other stuff, communications and all those types of things, the video. So it's not just that
people are telling us this. We're not relying 100% on people. If we did that, we'd be stupid, right? I like to think
I'm not that dumb. You take a totality of everything that we have. We know you're involved. And for you to
sit here and just say that you you don't have anything to do with it doesn't make
any sense. I think that you guys have me confused with somebody else. This interview has now been going on for
over 40 minutes and almost no progress has been made. Forcing him into a corner with evidence doesn't seem to be working
and neither does running through the events of the night or even explaining why what he's doing is a bad idea for
him. So instead, the detectives almost completely switch up and begin to threaten him with the consequences of
his actions on his own friends. Dude, you're not this guy. You know you're not this guy. If you were, this
conversation would be different. Yeah, I'm obviously not this guy. I meant I meant the dick that is letting
everybody else go down for him. I meant that type of guy. That's not you. You have a reputation as being a standup
dude. I think that whatever those guys did, if it leads to you believing that they were
accompllices and accessories and everything like that, yeah, would be their own fault if they [ __ ]
hang for it. Really? Even though hypothetically you're the person who pulled the
trigger. So even though somebody else pulls the trigger, you're good with those guys going down. Your homie Chris,
you're good with him going down. And I get it. You don't have any allegiance to these other two dudes. I understand
that. So, you're good with Chris going down, getting 20 years off of what you did. You're good with that?
If you guys have him orchestrating and setting up something like this, then that's insulting.
It's his own fault that you shot somebody. It's his own fault that you didn't do things the right way. That's
his fault. I ain't shooting nobody. He should put himself around better people. Okay.
You know he's going to read this, right? I mean, he's going to have disclosure. It's fine. I'd much rather not see my
friend get in trouble. But if by you saying that, you guys want me to tell you that I did something that I didn't
do. Fair enough. I don't want you to tell me that you did something you didn't do.
That's not what I want. I want you to admit to what you did do. Cuz it's not even a question that you did.
If it wasn't a question, you wouldn't be sitting here trying to get me to admit to something I didn't do.
I would because it's the right thing to do. You may not trust the police, but I don't want to jam up all these other
dudes on a murder one charge for something you did, cuz it's not right in my mind that other people go down for
something that serious off of what somebody else did. So, I do care about that. That's why I'm talking to you.
Well, you're talking to the wrong guy. You don't care about those dudes. I'm not saying I don't care about him. I'm
saying that you're talking to the wrong guy because I didn't do [ __ ] That's not
And I think that that's not what innocent people say. Innocent people that actually give a
Yeah. No, I you know how many people I've had in that chair, man? Thousands. I don't You don't give a You don't give
a That's you. Like Enjoy your time. I don't care then. I don't I don't have any uh hard feelings for you. I'm just
going to move on to my next case. I just want you to know this isn't about you. This isn't personal. Like you can say
you don't care, but I actually think you do. I think you're being So with that said, so you agree that uh
there's nothing more to say, right? If you don't want to talk to me, there isn't.
Well, I don't want to talk to somebody that's going to keep on calling me a liar.
I have yet to call you a liar. You've made the implication that I'm lying to you.
Cuz you are. But there's a difference between calling someone a liar and then pointing out inaccuracies in their
story. There's a big difference. One is disrespectful. The other is not. Have I been disrespectful to you? Have I
been disrespectful to you? Have I insulted you or or come at you hard or done anything on the
You called me a liar. Yes, you did. You were lying. I'm not lying. Do you not freely admit that you lied to
me in this interview? Where did I lie to you? About meeting up with Cody, about being
home, not going out at all, and then now you periodically are going out. Would you not concede that both of those
things were lies? I don't go farther than a couple blocks from my house on foot to meet somebody very quickly and
come back. Okay. That's not what you told me. You don't leave your house. I don't leave my house. I was home all
weekend with my girlfriend. It's on tape, man. There ain't no secret. Like, dude, I've got to walk my dog. Of
course, I leave the house periodic. Okay. But as for did I go anywhere? So, you were never at Casino in Evergreen
anywhere near there within three or four blocks Saturday night. I just want wanted to make sure that we have this
down. Let's see. Sunday morning. How far is the Starbucks on Evergreen? Which Starbucks?
One on 75th. Yeah. No, I'm not talking about that. Okay. Yep. Then No, I wasn't.
Okay. So, you're at the Starbucks on 75th earlier in the evening. Yeah. like 8 or
9:00, something like that. Well, that's not home. Did you lie to me? I don't even get a smile out of that
one. I didn't I didn't get you on that one. I feel like I got you on there. Blatantly caught in a lie. It might not
seem like it yet, but David is starting to get uncomfortable. If it's not been obvious throughout the whole video, the
only thing he cares about is his own ego. So now that that's been damaged, he's immediately on the back foot. And
it's up to the detective to keep pushing and try to get him to move just that little bit further.
Were you with somebody? Yeah. Who? Another woman. Who was that? Not going to tell you that because she'd
be very upset. Yeah, but it's a homicide. They can help prove that you weren't involved.
How? Cuz if you're with her, right, that that gets my timeline tighter. So you were
with her from 8 to when? Not very long. So you half hour at most. So you don't want to tell me who that
is? I really don't. Okay. Were you in a car? You're on foot? I rode my bicycle. So 75th. Then how'd you get home?
I got a ride from her with my bicycle in the back of her SUV. So there was a car. Did I get you there?
Feel like I got you there, too. I'm just looking for honesty, man. I mean, at this point, I'm I feel
comfortable that you have lied to me several times. I'm looking for honesty so that I can rule you out.
If you ask where I was Saturday night, Sunday morning. I did. Yeah. So, Sunday morning,
late Saturday night. Yeah. Doesn't cover 8 or 9:00 in the evening. Oh, okay. So, then let's rewind. So,
Saturday morning to 8:00, where were you most of the time? I don't. Can you just lay it out for me? Why do I
got to like pull it out of you? Like just I'm asking where you were, man, so I can rule you out.
For the first time in an hour, he's been sat in the interrogation room. David moves his hand from his lap and adjusts
his cap. His hands have also been moving around very slightly, and he's been stuttering over his words. His ego has
been properly bruised, and he's starting to get very uncomfortable. If provoked,
narcissists such as David are likely to suddenly snap in an instinctive effort to prove that they are smart and in
control, but often give up all the information the cops need to catch them dead to rights. So, the detective keeps
up his nononsense direct questions to try and get them to crack. The only places
that I go usually could go to 7-Eleven, correct? the Little Asian market if you know we need tubes and tobacco for
rolling cigarettes, but that's not very often. Okay. Walgreens. Yeah. What Saturday did you go to those
places? I don't need to know where you generally go. I need to know where you went Saturday.
I probably went to 7-Eleven at some point. Any idea what time? I go when I need something or want
something. I understand, but that's why I'm asking. Like anytime. Do you remember wanting or
needing something on Saturday? No, I don't. because I don't feel like I need to track
every one of my movements and [ __ ] like that because I don't need to have a lock
tight schedule of what I'm doing, where I'm going. As long as I'm at DOC on Thursdays between 1 and 3 and I make my
appointments with ideal options, then doesn't seem like a big deal to me where I go.
Okay. Unless you're being charged with murder, and it kind of is a big deal, right?
Yeah. But if I don't pay attention to and keep track of these things, how the [ __ ] am I going to tell you where I was
without lying to you then? Because I don't know exactly when I was there. Well, you could at least try.
Yeah. Yeah, I would try. If it can rule you out as a suspect in a homicide, I would try.
Yeah. Well, where I was Saturday during the day has no bearing on where I was Saturday night, Sunday morning.
It does. Absolutely it does. Cuz I can show you're wearing different clothes or I can show you're wearing the same
clothes, right? That's pretty important. Do you agree? I can show that you were with somebody else and not with these
people. People change their clothes. People meet other people. Oh, no. No question.
But if I'm chipping away at that timeline, right, it can be exculpatory for you, meaning
that it excludes you as a suspect. I know my vernacular is very good. Sweet. So, you don't have to explain your words
to me. Look, dude, you can act like you're uh upset about that. You're not. So, move past
it. The fact that you're talking to me like I'm a child to you like a child. What did I How did I talk to you like a
child? Tell me when. I think you have to explain a word that you're using to me.
Most people don't know what that word means. I apologize. Most people areing idiots.
Okay, you can pretend you're getting upset about it, but you're really not. No, I'm getting upset if you call me a
liar about cuz you lied. You lied. And I don't actually think I called you a liar. I did say you lied, but I don't
think I actually called you a liar. So, I'll call it to you now so we can just move past it. You are a liar. You have
lied. Do you want to tell me what happened or not? Couldn't tell you cuz I don't know.
Fair enough. We'll end up close the tape out for you, right? Man, should have done that a long time ago
when I said the conversation was over. Oh, okay. Whatever you say, partner. And so it seems the conversation truly was
over as from then on David refused to even say another word, choosing not to exercise his perfect vernacular anymore.
And predictably he didn't last long in court. Given that he made no attempt to defend himself or cooperate with
detectives, he was faced with the maximum possible sentence. David was also already a convicted felon with
charges of arson, burglary, vehicle theft, and 35 other misdemeanors dating all the way back to 1999.
So, in October of 2020, 33-year-old David Wright was sentenced to 40 years in prison without the possibility of
parole.

Interrogations like this don't happen often where the suspect outsmarts the detectives and knows EXACTLY what to do... but today we cover 4 cases where the suspect outsmarts the cops in interrogation

Brief Summary

Four suspects outsmart police during interrogations, with varying outcomes from clever evasion to self-incrimination.

Key points

Mark Denclow's Interrogation. Gang leader Mark Denclow is interrogated about a murder, showcasing his defiance.
Kirk's Confident Denial. Jonathan Kirk, aka The Baby, confidently denies involvement in a robbery during his interrogation.
Kirk's Interrogation Insights. Kirk explains how interrogations work when evidence is lacking.
Jeff's Masterclass in Custody. Jeff showcases how to handle police questioning effectively.
The Desperation of Detectives. Detectives become desperate as they realize Jeff won't budge.
Jeff's Casual Denial. Despite being in pain and under questioning, Jeff casually asks for snacks.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I want to know what the heck's going on, man.

Mark's frustration during interrogation.

2:19WatchMay 10, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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