Waco: The Final Standoff (Part 3/3) | Forensic Files

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or on our website. 45-year-old [music] FBI negotiator Byron Sage was mortified. A Vietnam War veteran who [music] had
been employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation for almost 25 years, [music]
he had a wealth of experience when it came to negotiating hostage situations. He'd worked in fugitive, extortion, and
organized crime investigations and knew how to navigate a crisis. [music] Sage had spent hours trying to coax
David Koresh and his followers from that compound and had helped put together a surrender plan that looked set to end
the disastrous siege that had started under the ATF less than 3 days earlier. By the afternoon of Tuesday, March 2,
1993, both the Branch Davidians and the FBI negotiators were anticipating a peaceful and imminent resolution with
David Koresh promising that everyone inside the compound would surrender in exchange for his message being broadcast
on a national television station. But [music] when Byron Sage called into Mel Carnal just before 6:00 p.m. to find
out what was taking so long, he was met with some devastating news. >> [music] >> Koresh's right-hand man, Steve
Schneider, informed Sage that David Koresh had changed his mind. I just talked to them. He's apparently
going through a lot of anguish and what the guy just went through. I've never seen anything like it before, but he
wanted me to remind you to read Psalms chapter 2. Then he wanted me to read to you Revelation 18. Steve, but what does
this Did you ever read the story of Christ when he hung on the cross where he actually perspirations of drops of
blood because of the anguish? Mhm. Can I just read Revelation 18 to you? Y- Y- just a minute, Steve.
>> Everything is ready to go right now, but all of a sudden, I mean, he started praying. He gave us his word. I know
that. [music] I'm aware of that. >> That after the message was played >> but what if there is a higher power than
you and I that speaks to an individual? What do you do? That's the question. This is why he said, "Be aware of who
you're dealing with." Just remember that David told the world I understand that.
>> that he was coming out. >> Can I read Revelation 18 to you? Steve, I wanted to come out. I I I understand
>> When is he planning to come out? He said his God says that he is to wait. How
long? How long does he I I Look, I know in this world you don't believe that there is a supernatural power that
speaks audibly to a person. Is David a man of his word? He always has been. >> What does trust [music] mean to you?
Exactly what it means to you. >> I got commanders and they are losing trust in me.
>> [music] >> Steve repeatedly reiterated that Koresh was awaiting further instruction from
God and that nothing would happen until those instructions arrived. Embarrassed [music] and bitterly
disappointed, Byron Sage had to return to his commanders with the news that no one would be leaving Mount Carmel that
night. >> [music] >> The anger the FBI leaders felt about David Koresh's last-minute change of
mind was reflected in the crackdown that followed. The head of the agency's hostage rescue
team informed the siege commander, [music] quote, "It's time to teach him a lesson."
>> [music] >> There was debate amongst the various FBI leaders as to how to proceed from here.
They didn't all see the situation eye to eye, with different units arguing for different approaches.
The Hostage Rescue Team, or HRT, was an elite tactical unit trained to take action.
Their instincts were typically to rush in and get a situation under control. As one HRT member told journalists from
ABS's Frontline program, "A crime's been committed, and I'm talking murder charges. You've got to do
something about it. You cannot just let those people sit." The HRT's role would be to surround and
secure a scene before going in and using force if necessary. This style led to them sometimes being
called ninjas. At Mount Carmel, they took up multiple positions from all sides, situating
[music] themselves about 300 yd, or 275 m, from the building. In contrast, the FBI's team of
negotiators were not working directly at the scene. Their headquarters were in an airplane
hangar 5 and 1/2 miles away, and their approach was very different from the HRT.
Focused on building trust with subjects through talk and a steady pace, their goal was to convince the Branch
Davidians to come out rather than rushing in to take them. They couldn't actually see what was
going on inside the compound and would rely on reports shared by the Branch Davidians [music] and their colleagues
instead. Negotiator Gary Nasner was concerned when he overheard Dick Rogers, the head
of the HRT, telling Siege Commander Jeff Jamar that it was time to teach David Koresh a lesson.
Rogers wanted to send his team in stating, "My people can get in and secure that
place in 15 minutes." Gary Nasner argued against this pointing out that Koresh had still been releasing
women and children overnight. Perhaps he might continue to release more even if he wasn't ready to
surrender himself. The negotiators felt that storming in with force would undermine [music] the
delicate level of trust they'd work to build with Koresh and his followers. Ultimately, Siege Commander Jeff Jamar
sided with the negotiators [music] agreeing it was too soon to send in the HRT. Jamar was acting as special agent in
charge of operations in accordance with FBI procedure. According to the Bureau's policies, when
a major event like Waco took place, it would be run by the highest ranking local agent.
Jeff Jamar was that agent at the nearby office in San Antonio. Although he believed that it was too
soon to cease negotiations with Koresh, Jamar was also inclined to agree [music]
with Dick Rogers that the religious leader needed to be taught a lesson. He ordered that some of the Bradley
armored vehicles [music] that had been set up around the perimeter of Mount Carmel be moved closer to the building.
This would function as a visible reminder of the FBI's presence and power at the scene.
To further this image of [music] greater control, the FBI also built fake sniper
positions, while also having genuine snipers set up at less visible locations. Inside Mount Carmel, some of the Branch
Davidians were just as disappointed and confused by David Koresh's abrupt change
of mind as the FBI agents. >> [music] >> There had been an impromptu celebration
the night before, with members raiding the refrigerator and pouring alcoholic beverages.
They toasted the impending end to the siege with stale cake and whiskey, and sang songs to celebrate. [music]
David Koresh hadn't joined in as he'd been confined upstairs with his shooting injury.
At some point, Steve Schneider had told everyone to stop celebrating, [music] adding,
"David's mad with you guys. >> [music] >> Why are you letting down the message?"
When news came late the following day that they wouldn't be leaving after all, some Branch [music] Davidians wondered
if their sinful behavior the previous night was to blame. David Thibodeau later wrote in his
memoir that he believed Koresh's explanation that God had told him to wait, as he knew Koresh to be entirely
sincere in his beliefs. >> [music] >> But David knew that the change of plans would not go down well with the federal
authorities. >> [music] >> The Branch Davidians noticed when the FBI moved the Bradley tanks [music]
closer to their home and then used them to crush two outbuildings on the property.
They also [music] rammed into a station wagon that had been left behind by a journalist from the Waco [music] Tribune
Herald. These actions were undoubtedly intimidating, [music] and spokespeople inside the compound protested about them
to negotiators over the phone. >> [music] >> I heard some crunching or something. I
looked out the window and I see one of your tanks ran over a guard shack. I thought that was pretty cute, Steve
Schneider [music] said. What now? A negotiator replied in shock. >> [music] >> You're kidding. I know they've been
ordered not to go in there. The FBI had cut off the Branch [music] Davidians phone lines to all but their
negotiators. So those inside the compound had no way of contacting the outside world.
>> [music] >> They wanted to go to the media to share their story, but had no way of doing so.
>> [music] >> Nor were the media permitted near them. Reporters from across the country and
even overseas had flocked to Waco after the botched ATF raid led to extensive bloodshed, [music]
prompting the FBI to set up a designated press area 2 miles from Mount Carmel. It was next to a roadblock in the middle
of a farm-to-market road. The compound could be glimpsed in the distance, but journalists [music]
weren't permitted any closer than that. Beginning on Wednesday, March 3, the FBI
held daily press conferences to update [music] both the media and the public on the siege.
There wasn't much to report [music] aside from the fact that negotiators were still trying to convince David
Koresh to surrender without [music] success. Officials repeatedly referred to the
Branch Davidians as a cult, a word that held loaded significance and [music] called to mind previous tragedies such
as the Manson family murders in 1969 and the Jonestown Massacre in 1978, covered in episode 60 of [music] Case
File. Moreover, the Branch Davidians were described as militant religious zealots
who were dangerous to the public. The Branch Davidians [music] watched and listened to these press conferences via
their televisions and radios inside Mount Carmel. With little [music] else to go on and
unable to speak to the subjects of the siege themselves, journalists took to wandering around the city of Waco.
They chatted to locals to see if anyone [music] had personal anecdotes about the
so-called cult currently holed up in their compound. >> [music] >> People they spoke to said they found the
group a bit strange, but not scary. They definitely weren't considered dangerous.
Occasionally, reporters and photographers tried to sneak closer to Mount Carmel to see what was happening.
When caught doing so, they were arrested [music] and handcuffed. In one call with negotiators, Steve
Schneider voiced his distress at the situation, stating, "The press is so far back, you [music]
guys could come and blow us away and give any story you wanted." As the days went by, the roadside press
area grew and was dubbed Media City. There were rows and rows of TV trucks lining both sides of the road. Reporters
set up tents and barbecue grills while they waited for something to happen. Journalist Carlton Stowers later told
author Jeff Guinn, quote, "All around Mount Carmel, there were so many agents and army guys and
negotiators and equipment and tanks and everything, [music] that it looked like our government was
going to war with another country." Soon, members of the public began showing up at a hill just outside Media
City to join the growing circus. Most were protesters demonstrating solidarity with the Branch Davidians,
while others saw a business opportunity. They sold t-shirts and homemade souvenirs like coffee cups, baseball
[music] hats, and postcards emblazoned with anti- or pro-government messages and dark jokes.
One read, "Mount Carmel erupts, a message from God, the sinful episode." Another read,
"Hey Vern, weird [ __ ] come out." >> [music] >> The first letter of each of the last
four words was capitalized to spell out Waco. One individual who showed up in support
of the Branch Davidians was a 24-year-old Army veteran named Timothy McVeigh, who'd driven over from
Michigan. >> [music] >> He'd already been angered by the notorious Ruby Ridge standoff less than
a year earlier and saw the Waco siege as another example of government overreach
and oppression. [music] Sitting on the hood of his car, McVeigh sold bumper stickers with messages
[music] such as, "Ban guns, make the streets safe for a government takeover." And, [music]
"Fear the government that fears your gun." Meanwhile, FBI negotiators continued their efforts with David Koresh.
Often, [music] their calls with him turned into religious sermons with Koresh preaching for up to an hour at a
time about God's plan for the end of the world and the unlocking of the seven seals.
Some of the negotiators took to calling these one-sided conversations Bible babble.
They interjected and tried to return Koresh's focus to the more practical and immediate matters at hand.
When pressed as to when he might emerge with his followers, Koresh replied, "I'm dealing with my father now, not
your [music] systematic, bureaucratic system of government. The negotiators expressed their concerns
about Koresh's bullet wounds and his general health. Koresh suspected that he'd lost about
three pints of blood, but was doing all right. He was being [music] treated by one of
the Branch Davidians who was a nurse. She reported that he was doing well. His temperature was normal and his
complexion was good. The other Branch Davidians who [music] sustained injuries in the botched raid
were also doing fine. Despite Koresh's refusal to leave Mount Carmel, he did agree to send out a
couple more children. A 12-year-old boy left the compound on Wednesday, March 3, and an 11-year-old
boy followed the next day. By the end of the siege's fifth day, 21 children in total had been released,
[music] ranging in age from 5 months old to 12 years. Their parents had pinned notes to their
clothing with instructions about relatives or friends who should be called to take custody of them.
All of these children were assessed at a local Child Protective Services facility.
Joyce Sparks, who had previously investigated the Branch Davidians after allegations of child abuse were made,
noted, "They are in remarkably good psychological condition [music] considering what they've gone through.
They appear very healthy, uh well-behaved, and well-educated. None of them appear to have been in any
way abused or neglected." However, >> [music] >> an associate professor of psychology and
behavioral sciences disagreed somewhat. He would later testify at Congress, quote,
"They believed that they would all be attacked and that the outsiders would kill everyone in the compound and that
Koresh would come back and kill the bad guys, uniting everyone in heaven. All of the young girls were being
prepared to be David's wives. One of the older girls expressed [music] distress now that she had been released
from the compound that she would not be able to be picked by David as one of his
brides. On Tuesday, [music] March 9, a week and a half after the siege began, the Texas
Department of Protective and Regulatory Services [music] officially stripped the
children's parents of custody rights. To regain custody, [music] they would have to pass state tests.
>> [music] >> Friday, March 5 began positively with Koresh sending out a 9-year-old girl.
It seemed that the negotiators were making slow but steady progress. However, concerns arose when authorities
read the note the girl's mother had pinned to her jacket. It was addressed to the girl's older
sister and explained that by the time she read the message, the mother would be dead.
She added that once all of the children were out, the adults would die. This again raised concerns about a
possible mass suicide. Whenever the FBI queried David Koresh or Steve Schneider about this possibility,
they reassured them there was no such plan. Koresh's conversations with the FBI sometimes took on a violent tone.
At one point, he told negotiators that he and his followers had been planning for a confrontation with the government
since 1985. He threatened to blow the FBI's tanks to pieces. Still trying to build a rapport with
Koresh, the FBI offered to send in a suture kit so his wounds could be treated, [music]
as well as photos and videos of the children who'd left the compound to prove they were doing well.
Koresh accepted this [music] offer. These items were delivered to the bullet-riddled front doors of Mount
Carmel, along with a video camera so the Branch Davidians could record videos of
their own. The negotiators hoped that this might provide a decent window into life inside
the compound. And it did. Steve Schneider filmed the injured Koresh seated on the floor [music] with
his back pressed against a wall. He wore a white tank top [music] and gray tracksuit pants. His electric
guitar was propped up next to him, and children could be heard playing [music] in the background.
Steve began by asking Koresh if there was anything he'd like to say. Koresh responded,
We just thought we'd kind of break the ice and allow people to see just exactly you know, what kind of people we have
here. I'd start off first of all with my oldest son. His name is Cyrus. Come sit over here, son.
Koresh beckoned his 7-year-old [music] son, Cyrus, to sit down next to him. Cyrus had shoulder-length blond hair and
waved at the camera with a shy smile. One by one, Koresh had other children sit with him.
He introduced them and encouraged them to share some facts about themselves, sing their ABCs, and say hello to their
Branch Davidian [music] friends outside. He also asked them questions about their
love of God. >> [music] >> The FBI negotiators who subsequently received these tapes scoured them for
intelligence on how everyone inside was doing. They all looked clean, healthy, and
comfortable enough. Koresh occasionally closed his eyes in apparent discomfort [music] from his
injuries, but did not appear to be suffering. The FBI knew the Branch Davidians were
capable of holding up inside the compound for months. For a long time, they'd been stockpiling
thousands of military-style ready-to-eat meals and canned goods. They also had their own well with an
electric pump providing a limitless water supply that couldn't be shut off. If the group had everything they needed
to survive, it was growing increasingly difficult to find a way to draw them out.
The Branch Davidians remained concerned about the tanks surrounding the property
and their inability to communicate with the media. The next couple of days continued with
both Koresh and Steve Schneider [music] spending hours and hours talking with the FBI.
Steve [music] voiced his concerns that the FBI might kill them all and burn down the entire compound.
Koresh mostly preached, though he also offered to send out another child if he could speak to Robert Rodriguez, the
undercover ATF agent who'd infiltrated the Branch Davidians. [music] When this wasn't permitted, Koresh
reneged on his offer to release anyone else. A week into the siege, the Branch [music] Davidians requested to have milk
sent in for the children, which the FBI suggested could [music] be traded for more releases.
Koresh flatly refused to this, stating, [music] "You're dealing with my biological
children now." None of the children who had been sent out were his, and he wouldn't entertain
the idea of releasing his own sons or daughters. The FBI delivered the milk anyway.
The cartons had tiny listening devices implanted into the Styrofoam, so that authorities could listen in on some of
the conversations inside the compound. >> [music] >> The Branch Davidians were such a
cohesive group that the FBI was finding it hard to break through. >> [music] >> It wasn't like negotiating with armed
robbers or terrorists who were holding hostages captive. Instead, it was the FBI against all of
the residents inside who saw them as the enemy. Although they were speaking with various
people inside the compound, the two individuals the negotiators spoke to most frequently were Koresh [music]
and Steve Schneider. They decided to try driving a wedge between the two friends. Perhaps if
there was a [ __ ] in the armor, it would be easier to achieve their mission. In the early morning hours of Tuesday,
March 9, [music] FBI negotiators asked Steve Schneider if it was true that his wife, Judy, had a
child with Koresh and was considered one of his brides. They challenged Steve about this,
clearly trying to provoke him by asking, "Don't you miss the way it was?" But Steve merely reiterated his loyalty
to Koresh and replied, >> [music] >> "It's better than it was." With that attempt failing, siege
commander Jeff Jamar decided they needed to make life inside the compound less bearable. [music]
At 2:15 a.m. on the 10th day of the siege, they cut off its electricity. In the [music] PBS documentary Waco: The
Inside Story, Jeff Jamar said, "There's the 10-day rule. Usually these things are over in 10 days.
>> [music] >> That night, it was going to be 20° and the thought process was, "If we're going
to be cold in the dark, let them be cold in the dark, too." Negotiators were less enthusiastic about
this decision, aware that it could set back the delicate negotiations process by days.
Sure enough, David Koresh [music] refused to come to the phone until the power was restored.
It was switched [music] back on later that same morning. This was just the beginning of the power
being switched [music] off and turned back on at the FBI's whim. Inside Mount Carmel, tempers were
beginning to fray. Those who were injured were suffering even more than the others.
David Koresh, whose injuries were the worst, was becoming prone to mood swings. Judy Schneider's right forefinger had
been shot during the ATF raid and by this stage had swollen to twice its usual size.
She was offered medical assistance by the FBI, [music] but refused to come out. At 3:40 that afternoon, some Branch
[music] Davidians climbed up to the window of the watchtower upstairs and unfurled a homemade banner outside.
Written on a bed sheet in large black letters were the words, [music] "God help us. We want the press."
>> [music] >> Negotiators received some positive news on Friday, March 12, when they learned
that a Branch Davidian named Kathy Schroeder would be leaving the compound. Kathy had previously sent her children
out and her husband, Michael, had been killed during a confrontation with the ATF on the day of the botched raid.
She wanted to be reunited with her surviving family and Koresh was fine with letting her go as he was already
annoyed with her for smoking after the ATF raid. Kathy later told author Jeff Guinn,
>> [music] >> "He used my smoking for an excuse for kicking me out. He also told me I'd be a beacon of the
message to inform the world." Kathy left [music] the compound late that morning with her hands up and was
interviewed extensively by the FBI. She assured them there were no suicide plans, but added that many other people
inside did want to leave. They couldn't do so because Koresh had a hold over them.
The FBI filmed Kathy's emotional reunion with her 3-year-old son and sent the tape into the compound hopeful it might
inspire others to surrender. >> [music] >> Another Branch Davidian left the same
day, a 19-year-old Australian man named Oliver Gyarfas. Steve Schneider informed negotiators
that a few more were planning to leave the next [music] day. But later that night, siege commander
Jeff Jamar ordered that the compound's electricity be switched off again [music]
to prove to the Branch Davidians that the FBI controlled their earthly lives, not [music] David Koresh.
This time, the power wouldn't be turned back on again. David Koresh and Steve Schneider were
furious. They told the FBI negotiators that turning off the power had been an act of
bad faith. Privately, the negotiators agreed with them. It seemed highly unlikely that more
Branch Davidians were going to leave. Steve said that their people were freezing cold.
He again accused the government of wanting to kill them all and then burn the building down.
From the negotiators' perspectives, it felt as though whenever they were making incremental progress, the HRT took an
aggressive approach that undermined their hard work. As far as the HRT was concerned, the
negotiators themselves seemed to have been taken hostage by the Branch Davidians.
Their progress seemed painfully slow to the tactical unit, who were accustomed to wrapping things up within a couple of
days. Described by an analyst who worked with the FBI as testosterone-driven, the HRT agents believed decisive action
could likely draw the standoff to a close quite swiftly. Frustration grew to such a point that
one member of the HRT graffitied an outhouse they were using with the words, "Sage is a Davidian." in reference
[music] to negotiator Byron Sage. Although the power in the compound had been cut off, the phone line remained
open and the negotiators continued trying different tactics. They had Kathy Schroeder call in to
speak to her fellow church members. She reassured the Branch Davidians that the FBI was treating her well and hadn't
charged her with anything. They'd only asked general questions and had been super.
This didn't have the desired effect with both Koresh and Steve Schneider becoming
upset with Kathy for not being a spokesperson for them. One of the FBI's hidden microphones
picked up someone in the compound stating, "Kathy sounds like she's becoming one of
them." After that, the FBI established a modified strategy. The negotiators would remain friendly
and courteous, but would take a firmer approach. They would continue to discuss finding a
way to a peaceful resolution with the Branch Davidians, but would no longer listen to any more Bible babble.
On Monday, March 15, Koresh's two right-hand men, Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin, agreed to meet with
negotiator Byron Sage and the McLennan County Sheriff in person. The four met on the grounds of Mount
Carmel, about 20 yards from the front doors. All were putting themselves in a dangerous situation.
Byron Sage [music] was terrified that someone from inside the compound might seize the moment to fire on him or the
sheriff. Meanwhile, some members of the HRT were fighting the urge to grab Steve and
Wayne and arrest them as they stood there unarmed. Their instincts to jump into action were
only assuaged by directions from FBI leadership to leave the men alone. Byron Sage spoke mostly to Steve, who
was calm and made strong eye contact. Wayne Martin seemed nervous, dressed in a three-piece suit and fidgeting.
Sage looked Steve directly in the eyes and reassured him that he would give his life to protect two documents,
>> [music] >> the US Constitution and the Bible. That was why he was meeting with them to
come to a peaceful resolution. Steve responded positively to this, telling Sage that he believed him
completely and would do all that he could to conclude the siege. Though he and Wayne repeatedly made it
clear that Koresh would always have the final say. Steve Schneider and Byron Sage [music]
agreed to meet again the following day. When Steve went back into the compound, he told Koresh how much he liked and
trusted Sage. That night, Jeff Jamar ordered combat engineer vehicles to clear everything
within 50 yards of the Mount Carmel building. They crushed cars that belonged to
Branch Davidians and were parked around the property. This would prevent any Branch Davidians
from using the vehicles as cover if they decided to run out of the building guns
blazing. This was perceived as a hostile act and [music] again inflamed tempers inside
Mount Carmel. Steve Schneider refused to meet with negotiators again the following day and
he and Koresh argued with Byron Sage over the phone. "Are you going to kill me?" Koresh
asked. >> [music] >> "No." Sage replied before the call ended abruptly. Deciding they needed to speak to all
Branch Davidians more directly, the negotiators began broadcasting messages over a loudspeaker system the FBI had
set up outside the compound. >> [music] >> This would allow everyone inside the compound to hear them.
They broadcast tapes recorded by Branch Davidians who had left the siege. These upbeat recordings featured
positive messages about their interactions with law enforcement. >> [music] >> The negotiators also arranged for a
package full of documents to be dropped off at the compound including letters from attorneys willing to represent
Koresh and others, a letter from the Christian Broadcasting Network, and an audiotape from a theologian who had
listened to Koresh's sermons. These tactics seemed to work with Koresh saying that more people would soon be
coming out and they would eventually be followed by everyone else. Over the next few days, nine adults left
the compound, including Sheila Martin, the wife of Wayne Martin. Sheila was allowed to call her husband
in the compound, telling [music] him, "Everything went well. The ride was bumpy."
Wayne gave a reply that the FBI considered cryptic. "It [music] could be bumpy later, too."
The negotiators were encouraged by the steady [music] stream of surrenders. They urged Steve to send out more
people, >> [music] >> but he said he couldn't as Koresh was sleeping and had to be consulted before
anyone else could leave. However, everything seemed to indicate that everyone would be out soon.
>> [music] >> At around the same time, chief negotiator Gary Nesner learned of a plan
that would take the standoff into a whole new phase. >> [music] >> FBI special agent in charge Dick Shwine
had recently arrived from the Texas city of El Paso to assist Jeff Jamar and other leaders.
SAC Dick Shwine wore a dark blue SWAT-style uniform, where the other SACs typically wore civilian clothing.
Chief negotiator Gary Nesner would later describe SAC Shwine as, "A caricature of the gung-ho type.
He seemed surprisingly cavalier and flippant about the process. Once I heard him say in passing,
'No use trying to talk to these bastards. We've just got to go in there and cut their balls off.'"
On the same day that Steve Schneider said he had to wait for Koresh to wake before releasing any more people, Gary
Nesner learned of a plan SAC Shwine had proposed. He wanted to use the loudspeakers to
broadcast music into the compound. According to Nesna, this was an idea that SAC Schwein had gotten from his
time serving in the US Army. During the invasion of Panama, American soldiers had tormented military dictator
General Manuel Noriega with loud recordings in an effort to force him out of hiding.
Gary Nesna discouraged Jeff Jamar from implementing such a plan. He pointed out that music was not a
recommended negotiation tactic and was not something taught by the FBI. They were just starting to make real
progress with the Branch Davidians, and this approach would likely derail that. Plus, the loud music tactic hadn't
actually worked in Panama. Jeff Jamar assured Nesna that he would speak to SAC Schwein that evening when
he came on duty and make sure the tapes weren't played. In his memoir, Stalling for Time, Nesna
describes how he headed back to the motel where he was staying close to midnight, exhausted but reassured that
things were working out. After taking a shower, he turned on the television. Quote,
"There on the news, covered live, was the Davidian compound, brightly illuminated with [music] torturous
sounds blaring over speakers. The HRT blasted various songs, including Nancy Sinatra's These Boots Are Made for
Walking, across Mount Carmel, along with some deep Tibetan chants. At the same time, [music]
bright floodlights were beamed across the property into the building's windows, making it impossible for people
inside to sleep. Embarrassed on behalf of the FBI and furious [music] that his advice had been
ignored, Gary Nessner called the command post to speak to Jeff Jamar only to find
he'd left for the evening. At 11:35 p.m., Steve Schneider passed on an angry message from David Koresh.
"Because of the loud music, nobody is coming out." The music eventually stopped, but only
because the loudspeaker system malfunctioned. Gary Nessner raised the matter with the
Jeff Jamar first thing in the morning. Jamar explained that he'd forgotten to tell SAC Schwein not to play the tapes,
but promised that it wouldn't happen again. That night, the tapes were played again.
Included alongside the music and chanting were the sounds of rabbits screaming as they died, recordings
typically used by hunters to attract coyotes. There were also screaming seagulls,
crying babies, buzzing drills, droning bagpipes, and other sounds selected for their abrasiveness.
Gary Nessner again tried to put a stop to this tactic, but Jeff Jamar seemed unbothered, telling Nessner that Schwein
had nothing better to do on the night shift. David Koresh and his band fought back
against the ongoing intrusion by setting up their own generator-powered amps and
playing loud rock songs for hours in the direction of the FBI. The Branch Davidian speakers [music]
were so powerful that agents had to shout at one another to be heard. Gary Nessner, Byron Sage, and the other
negotiators tried to explain to the Branch Davidians [music] that the tactical team was to blame for the
ongoing harassment, but the damage was done. People inside the compound were exhausted and sleep-deprived. [music]
Steve also told the negotiators that the agents who were standing guard around the compound were harassing them in
other ways by mooning them and flipping them off. If Branch Davidians walked outside to
stand in the courtyard or other external areas, FBI agents would toss flash bangs
in their direction. This perceived hostility meant that no one inside Mount Carmel had any
intention of surrendering. Byron Sage suspected that even if some of the Branch Davidians were desperate
to leave, [music] their loyalty to David Koresh prevented them from doing so. Koresh was clearly a highly charismatic
individual. His exceptional knowledge of the Bible and his interpretations of scripture had
won many people over and they wholeheartedly believed in his teachings. Their loyalty was clearly evident in the
way that followers had submitted to Koresh's insistence that other men in the group be celibate and all women be
his spiritual wives. Koresh repeatedly said that his people were free to leave at any time, but Sage
knew that before anyone inside the compound could do so, they had to complete an exit interview with Koresh.
He always made sure to tell them that they could do as they pleased, but it would mean leaving their external
salvation behind and giving themselves over to Babylon. On the evening of Monday, March 22, the
FBI delivered another offer to David Koresh in writing. If everyone inside the compound was out
by noon the following day, it said, Koresh could make a worldwide broadcast on the Christian Broadcasting Network
[music] and would be permitted to maintain contact following his arrest. He could even continue holding religious
services. Koresh responded by telling the negotiators that he had thrown the letter away.
Just after 10:00 a.m. the next morning, a 34-year-old British Branch Davidian named Livingston Fagan was sent out of
the compound by Koresh to provide a counterpoint to the agency's narratives about the group.
But before he could attempt to address the media, Livingston was arrested and taken to a local jail.
Late that [music] night, the FBI continued their strategy of blasting high-powered beams into the compound
while simultaneously broadcasting Tibetan chants, Christmas carols, [music] and recordings of previous negotiations.
This proved to just as ineffective as before. Chief negotiator Gary Noesner continued
to voice his displeasure at this approach, and on Wednesday, March 24, he was removed from his role.
It would later emerge that the HRT leader had complained that Noesner was impeding the tactical team's more
aggressive efforts. In his memoir, Stalling for Time, Noesner later wrote, "The real story was that with the FBI
seemingly helpless to compel the Davidians to surrender, siege commander Jeff Jamar was feeling the heat.
The entire nation was watching, and the FBI was spending about $128,000 a day. Venting my frustrations more strongly
than before, I told him that I didn't think we would [music] get anyone else out after these recent actions.
He appeared unconcerned. I realized then that he had already determined what he was going to do."
Gary Noesner was replaced by Clinton Van Zandt, a former member of the negotiation unit.
Noesner was concerned by this choice, knowing that Van Zandt was a vocal born-again Christian.
Noesner worried that this would lead to Van Zandt getting into arguments with Koresh about biblical scripture.
Sure enough, this concern proved warranted, with Van Zandt spending hours on the phone with Koresh trying to
persuade him that his interpretation of the Bible was wrong. Various negotiators on the team later
confided in Noesner that they had been frustrated by this approach. After Noesner's exit, there were
repeated attempts at negotiations and long conversations between Branch Davidians and FBI negotiators, all to no
avail. Progress had completely stalled. Morale inside the compound was low. By this point, they'd been without
electricity for weeks, relying on Coleman lanterns, kerosene, and propane for light and heat.
Their water supplies were depleting due to some of the outdoor receptacles having been shot at during the ATF raid.
Branch Davidians limited themselves to one or two 8-oz drinks per day, essentially one or two cups of water.
[music] People were no longer bathing, and sanitary conditions were deteriorating.
Buckets were used instead of flushing toilets. Food had to be rationed, with everyone
receiving two ready-to-eat meals per day. Branch Davidian David Thibodeau later wrote,
"The pre-packaged rations of spaghetti and meatballs or tuna casserole taste like mud when eaten cold, slime when
warmed over our lanterns. We freeze in the chilly winter prairie wind that rattles our broken windows and
whistles through the building's thin sheetrock walls. >> [music] >> Contact with the outside world had been
almost entirely cut off with all messages relayed or filtered through the FBI. [music]
Branch dividians expressed to their frustration by hanging more homemade banners out of their windows [music]
with messages like FBI broke negotiation, we want press, and [music] Rodney King, we understand. A reference
to the African-American man whose brutal beating by police led to the LA riots 2
years earlier. There were supporters and sympathizers trying to make contact with them.
Jay Gallop Arnold and James Tabor, [music] two biblical scholars who'd been following the case since the botched ATF
raid on February 28th, traveled to Waco to offer the FBI assistance in communicating with the Branch dividians.
They understood Koresh's preaching about the seven seals and realized that he was
a true believer, >> [music] >> not a con artist as many in law enforcement seemed to believe.
His faith and that of his followers had to be taken into account when speaking to them.
But when they tried to convey this to the FBI, [music] Arnold and Tabor were turned away.
They kept trying over the ensuing days [music] and weeks and both were subsequently interviewed about the
ongoing siege by a Dallas radio station. They critiqued [music] media coverage that had depicted Koresh as just kind of
a crazy man who rambles, pointing out that he knew the Bible well and his teachings [music]
were a logical way of interpreting it. The two scholars worried that the longer the siege [music] dragged on, the higher
the likelihood that it would end tragically. As far as they were concerned, the government's actions were only serving
to reinforce the Branch Davidians' apocalyptic belief system. The ATF, and now the FBI, had created a
situation that would look to them like persecution from external forces in a kind of holy war.
The scholars made a particular point of addressing Koresh's teachings about the seven seals, which they identified as
being particularly important. Koresh's preaching over the previous weeks had made it clear that he believed
the fifth [music] seal had been opened when the ATF had attempted to raid his compound.
He had phoned a radio station on the night of February 28th and [music] told the station manager, "We are now in the
fifth seal." The station manager hadn't understood what he'd meant, [music] but Arnold and Tabor knew exactly what
it signified. In the Book of Revelation, when the fifth seal is opened, its writer John
sees the souls of martyred Christians who were persecuted and killed due to their loyalty to God.
The souls cry out, asking how long it will be until justice is done. [music] God tells them to wait a little longer
until more of God's plan unfolds. Koresh, however, interpreted the fifth seal as pertaining specifically to his
followers. The Christians crying out were the Branch Davidians killed during the ATF
raid, and now [music] they were in their waiting season, pausing until God revealed what the next
step was. From Koresh's perspective, [music] surrendering early would mean disobeying
God. Arnold and Tabor addressed the fifth seal at length in their second radio interview, encouraging Koresh to wait as
long as he needed, while pointing out that he didn't have to remain at Mount Carmel to do so.
Paul, the most famous of Jesus' apostles, had continued his ministry after being imprisoned.
Koresh could surrender peacefully, and it wouldn't mean he was betraying God. It might actually expand his influence
and audience. They cited a passage in Revelation that instructed its narrator to prophesy
[music] again before many peoples and nations, something Koresh couldn't do as long as
he was holed up inside his compound. As they didn't know whether or not Koresh and his followers would have
heard the radio interview, Arnold and Tabor obtained a taped copy of it and began thinking of a way to send it in to
Mount Carmel. Another person eager to make contact with Koresh was an attorney retained by
Koresh's mother 10 days into the siege. Dick DeGuerin was a renowned Texas criminal defense lawyer who would go on
to defend some of the state's most infamous cases. DeGuerin drove with Koresh's mother to
Waco and attempted to enter Mount Carmel, but was blocked at a checkpoint. [music]
After petitioning both the courts and the FBI, DeGuerin was finally permitted to visit Koresh on Monday, March 29,
>> [music] >> just over a month into the siege. He rode up to the compound in an armored
Bradley vehicle driven by an FBI agent. They stopped about 100 yards from the building's entrance, and DeGuerin walked
to the front door, where he was met by Steve Schneider and Wayne Martin. David Koresh emerged from behind them,
bandaged and walking slowly. Koresh told DeGuerin his version of events about what unfolded on February
28th, and DeGuerin reassured him that if the ATF used excessive force without provocation and the Branch [music]
Davidians fought back, quote, "That's self-defense. Texas law is really clear on that."
DeGuerin took a look around the rest of the building and spoke with other Branch
Davidians. [music] He noticed a strong smell of sewage as well as garlic, which the injured group
members were using to treat their wounds. >> [music] >> DeGuerin stayed for 2 hours and returned
several more times over the next few days [music] to meet with his client. When the media reported that DeGuerin
was representing Koresh, Jay Philip Arnold and James Tabor, the two biblical scholars eager to share their message
with Koresh, decided to reach out to him. They managed to get the tape to DeGuerin, who agreed to take it to the
Branch Davidians compound. On Sunday, April 4, Koresh and his followers sat in the dining hall as
DeGuerin played the tape aloud. The room was silent as everybody listened. Although they didn't believe the
scholars were as knowledgeable as David Koresh, they were positive about their message and felt a new sense of hope.
Koresh did as well, wondering if perhaps this recording was the message from God
he'd been waiting for. >> [music] >> He couldn't provide specifics just yet, but he informed his lawyer that he and
all of his followers would surrender after Passover, an 8-day Jewish holiday that the Branch Davidians observed.
[music] In 1993, it began on the following day of Monday, April 4, [music] and concluded a week later on Tuesday, April
13. It seemed like the siege might finally be drawing to a close. The next couple of days saw little
communication from those within the compound. Outside, the FBI continued to make noise
as they played loud music and unpleasant sounds over the loudspeakers. They refused to stop, even when Steve
Schneider called and threatened to cut off communication permanently. On Tuesday, April 6, Steve also
clarified that the Branch Davidians dates for Passover were slightly different to those typically observed.
They would begin Passover that day at sundown and observe it for the next 7 days.
>> [music] >> When the FBI asked if that meant they'd be coming out on the eighth day, Steve
Schneider said, "No." Koresh was still waiting for God to tell him a date. >> [music]
>> They had said they'd leave after Passover, not immediately after. >> [music] >> David Koresh confirmed these dates the
next day, [music] and when asked if he would come out after that, he didn't answer, instead embarking on a long
religious sermon. The negotiators [music] phoned the compound repeatedly over the next few
days, but most of their calls went unanswered. On Friday, [music] April 9, Steve Schneider sent something
out of the compound for FBI negotiators to read. It was a letter dictated by David Koresh
to Steve's wife, Judy, who'd typed it up [music] despite her injured hand. It opened with the words,
"Friends, I offer to you my wisdom. I offer to you my sealed secrets. How dare you turn away from my [music]
invitations of mercy? I know your sins and iniquities. None are hid from me. When will you ever fear and be wise?
Your only savior is my truth. My truth is the seven seals." >> [music] >> It had been written from the perspective
of God, as though Koresh had channeled the letter from a higher source. The letter ended by advising,
"Learn from David my seals, or as you have said, bear the consequences. I forewarn you, the Lake Waco area of
Old Mount Carmel will be terribly shaken. >> [music] >> The waters of the lake will be emptied
through the broken dam. The heavens are calling you to judgment. Please [music] consider these tokens of
grave concern. Yahweh Koresh." The FBI [music] interpreted this final paragraph as threatening to blow up the
Lake Waco dam, >> [music] >> though it was unclear how he would do this while holed up in Mount Carmel.
Two more letters were sent out the next day, >> [music] >> riddled with scriptural passages and
more prophecies. >> [music] >> On the night of Tuesday, April 13, Dick DeGuerin decided to call into the
compound. As Koresh's lawyer, he could circumvent the blocks other outsiders faced.
[music] The Branch Davidians Passover was concluding the following day, and DeGuerin wanted to see what Koresh was
thinking. Would he be coming out soon as everybody hoped? Steve Schneider told DeGuerin that
Koresh couldn't come to [music] the phone as he was writing another letter. It was sent out the next day and was
addressed to DeGuerin. [music] It read, "Hello, Dick. As far as our progress is concerned,
here is where we stand. I have related two messages from God to the FBI, one of which concerns present [music]
danger to people here in Waco. I was shown a fault line running through the Lake Waco area.
>> [music] >> An angel is standing in charge of this event. Many people here in Waco know that we
are a good people and yet they have shown [music] the same resentful spirit of indifference to our warnings of love.
I am presently being permitted to document in structured form the [music] decoded messages of the seven seals.
Upon the completion of this task, I will be freed [music] from my waiting period.
I hope to finish this as [music] soon as possible and to stand before man to answer any and all questions regarding
my actions. Koresh went on at some length sharing his desire for people to be saved and
describing [music] what he saw as his destiny to share the truth. He concluded the letter by again
prophesizing that an earthquake [music] would hit Waco and shake some sense into
the people before adding what he planned [music] to do with his finished manuscript.
Quote, "I will demand that the first [music] manuscript of the seals be given to you.
Many scholars and religious leaders will wish to have copies for examination. [music]
I will keep a copy with me. As soon as I can see that people like a Jim Tabor and Phil Arnold have a copy, I
will come out and then you can do your thing [music] with this beast. We are standing on the threshold of
great advance. The seven seals in written form are the most sacred information [music] ever.
Koresh speculated that it would take him about one or two days to write about each of the seals, adding up to two
weeks [music] maximum until he was finished. After they were done, he and everyone
else would definitely surrender >> [music] >> and Koresh would be willingly taken into
custody at the county jail. >> [music] >> As word spread through the compound that
they would finally be leaving within the next two weeks, [music] the mood lifted considerably and people
felt a renewed sense of hope. >> [music] >> They removed the previous banners that
they'd hung outside the windows and replaced them with new ones that had more positive messages.
We come to love, not war and let's have a beer when this is over. While many of them accepted that they
would be incarcerated upon leaving, at least that they'd no longer [music] have to ration food or go without showers.
They also knew how significant it was that David Koresh was writing a manuscript.
Although he was an adept preacher, he'd never written his teachings [music] down
aside from notes he'd scribbled in his Bible. He had long said his message could
[music] not and should not be written down until God gave permission. It seemed the long-awaited moment had
finally come. Koresh dictated to Steve [music] Schneider who recorded him while also
editing Koresh's words for grammatical [music] errors. Then two other Branch Davidians typed up
Steve's transcription on a computer powered by their ever-depleting generator. Progress was going well, and everyone
was optimistic. By the end of Friday, April 16, [music] Koresh had finished writing about the
first seal. His anticipated schedule was on track. >> [music] >> On the outside, FBI leaders were having
their own conversations. As far as they were concerned, Koresh had proved that he wasn't to be trusted
on Tuesday, March 2, when he reneged on their surrender agreement. From their perspective, he had been
intransigent and avoidant ever since. [music] He often avoided speaking to negotiators
for days at a time, and [music] wouldn't listen when they finally got a hold of him.
He'd agreed to come out after Passover, and now he was talking about a manuscript.
They suspected this was just another delay tactic, even though Steve [music] Schneider was offering to send out
recordings of Koresh's progress. The siege had been dragging on for 48 days, and everyone was over it.
While law enforcement officers assigned to the standoff weren't as confined or deprived as the Branch Davidians,
[music] they were struggling, too. They were living in motels, away from their families, and subsisting on fast
food like pizza. The days were long, with 12-hour shifts that were often extremely [music]
boring. The HRT agents were especially restless. [music] They were often tasked with delivering
goods like milk and medical supplies to Mount Carmel, going right up to the doors where four other federal agents
had been killed. Knowing the occupants inside were armed and responsible for their deaths
agitated them further. Because they were used to charging in rather than holding back, the HRT had
actually submitted a proposed action plan to FBI headquarters in Washington, D.C. more than a month earlier on
Wednesday, March 10. [music] They had suggested that they surround the compound with armored tanks under
cover of darkness, then demand the surrender of occupants, and [music] if necessary, employ non-lethal tear gas to
force the Branch Davidians out. >> [music] >> The negotiators advised against using
tear gas to clear the compound unless the Branch Davidians [music] continued to resist all efforts to negotiate.
Because people had continued to surrender over the ensuing weeks and gradual progress was seemingly [music]
being made, the tear gas proposal was shelved. By April, however, it was back [music]
on the table. Siege Commander Jeff Jamar wanted stronger action taken, and negotiator
Byron Sage also signed off on a proposal to use tear gas. The siege was just a dragging on too
long, and a child hadn't been released since one week in. In order for tear gas to be used, the
U.S. Attorney General would have to agree as the nation's chief law enforcement officer and head of the
Department of Justice. [music] Janet Reno was the newly appointed Attorney General,
>> [music] >> having only been sworn in on March 12 after being nominated by the recently
elected President Bill Clinton. Reno had worked as a prosecutor in Florida, where she developed a
reputation for being a staunch advocate for children's rights. There were 62 adults and more than 20
children still holed up inside Mount Carmel, and the thought of releasing tear gas into a building with so many
children did not sit well with Reno. What if the [music] Branch Davidians took to using their kids as shields in
the face of such an action? Reno also worried that the gas might permanently damage the children.
On Monday, April 12, she rejected the plan, finding it too aggressive. But the FBI persisted, pushing back
against her decision by claiming the Branch Davidians had enough water to hold out indefinitely, and a tactical
response was necessary. Reno was assured in a 78-page briefing book that the gas was safe.
Quote, "Experience with the effects on children, including infants, has been extensively investigated.
Available reports indicate that even in high concentrations or in closed areas, long-term complications are extremely
rare." If there was any indication that Branch Davidians were using children as human
shields, the FBI would back off immediately. An FBI agent also told her that children
were currently being abused within the compound. >> [music] >> There was no evidence that children were
being physically or sexually abused during [music] the standoff, though historical evidence indicated girls had
been sexually abused by David Koresh, >> [music] >> and corporal punishment was used when
children misbehaved. Finally, [music] the FBI Director, William Sessions, called Janet Reno and asked her to
reconsider. She did. On Saturday, April 17, Reno gave her approval [music] for the tear gas to be
used, directing that it be put into effect on Monday, April 19. >> [music] >> The gas the FBI proposed to using was a
white powder called two-chlorobenzalmalononitrile, more commonly known as CS gas.
It would be mixed [music] with a solvent and delivered via armored vehicles, which would breach the compound's walls
and inject the gas inside. While CS gas is considered less than lethal, contact with it results in eye,
skin, and respiratory irritation with coughing fits lasting up to 20 minutes. If used in confined spaces at close
range and against people with underlying health conditions, it can kill. Some studies have indicated that large
amounts of CS gas can be combustible. As the FBI didn't intend to use an excessive amount of gas, they didn't
anticipate any overly severe results. Over 48 hours, they would gradually increase the levels being inserted into
the compound until those inside were compelled to leave. That was plan A. If the Branch Davidians responded to the
gas by arming themselves and shooting at the FBI, they would implement plan B, saturating the building with CS to force
an immediate exit. >> [music] >> The FBI felt confident that wouldn't happen, however.
Their large tanks would provide protection and would surely be too intimidating to fire at.
At 1:53 p.m. on Sunday, April 18, the FBI sent in armored vehicles [music] to clear the remaining Branch Davidian cars
from Mount Carmel to prepare the area for the following day's operation. One of the vehicles removed was David
Koresh's [music] own Chevrolet Camaro. This prompted Koresh pause his work on his manuscript
>> [music] >> and call the negotiator team to complain. Branch Davidians gathered in the
compound's windows [music] to look out as the tanks did their work. Some held up children.
>> [music] >> One HRT sniper noticed the cardboard sign that had been propped up in one of
the windows. It read, >> [music] >> "Flames await." At 5:59 a.m. on Monday, April 19, just
[music] as dawn was breaking, Branch Davidian David Thibodeau was woken by the shrill ringing of the telephone.
He answered it, and an FBI agent on the other end demanded to speak to Steve Schneider.
David went to wake Steve, but as he was doing so, another Branch Davidian alerted them that something was going on
outside. They went to a window and saw a formation of large demolition tanks had
formed a ring around the compound in the gray early morning light. At the same time, negotiator Byron Sage
announced over the FBI's loudspeakers, "The siege is over. We're going to put tear gas into the
building. David and Steven, lead your people out of there." At 6:02 a.m., two [music] of the tanks
approached the compound's windows and injected CS gas via spray nozzles that had been attached to their booms.
The Branch Davidians stared at one another in shock as Byron Sage's voice continued to echo,
"This is not an assault. The tear gas is harmless, but it will make your environment uninhabitable.
Eventually, it will soak into your food and clothing. You are under arrest. Come out with your hands up."
Steve Schneider instructed the others to grab their gas masks, which they had purchased in bulk at a gun show.
David Thibodeau ran from room to room waking people and raising the alarm. The scene was soon chaotic with
individuals bumping into each other as they dashed about and [music] children crying.
Many of the women and children headed towards a tunnel that led to an old school bus half buried in the ground.
But the opening minutes of the assault had not to loose debris blocking their path.
They turned around [music] and made their way to a concrete walk-in cooler at the base of the residential tower,
once used as a pantry, >> [music] >> but now the compound's gun room. As all of the gas masks were designed
for adults, none fit the children. The women dipped rags and towels into buckets of water and to use to them to
cover their children's faces. [music] Byron Sage could still be heard over the loudspeakers repeating the words,
"Come out with your hands up. There will be no shooting. This is not an assault."
Outside, the FBI heard metallic clinking sounds emanating from listening devices
they'd smuggled into the compound. This led them to believe that the Branch Davidians were arming up.
At 6:04 a.m., 2 minutes after the tear gas [music] was inserted, gunshots came from the direction of the compound
firing at the FBI's tanks. Byron [music] Sage later said that the tank positioned by the compound's front
doors looked as though it was lit up with sparklers due to the rounds [music] bouncing off it.
This led to an immediate abandonment of the agency's plan [music] A and a switch
to plan B. The FBI was now authorized to [music] flood the entire building with gas.
>> David Thibodeau was [music] still racing through the building, checking the women's quarters for anyone who might
not have heard the message, when he heard an enormous crashing sound reverberate through the building.
Two tanks had driven up to the dormitory side of the compound, and their steel claws were being used to tear chunks out
of the wall. The flimsy building shook violently, and David [music] saw a powdery cloud billow
inside, accompanied by a hissing sound. Small [music] gas canisters were simultaneously lobbed through the
windows, shattering the glass and adding [music] to the fumes. One canister hit a Branch Davidian
directly in the head, causing [music] him to drop unconscious to the floor. Protected by his gas mask, [music] David
Thibodeau ran towards the building's chapel, where some people had taken shelter.
Describing the mask [music] as feeling like a hand squeezing your face, he had to resist the urge to tear it off.
He saw at least one person without a mask who had tears [music] streaming down his face and was almost screaming
in agony. Those hiding in the chapel soon found their refuge targeted, [music] as a tank knocked against the eastern
wall. Its boom poked through the hole it created and deposited more gas, >> [music]
>> sending those inside scuttling towards the opposite corner. While the gas masks protected the Branch
Davidians' respiratory systems, they [music] couldn't protect their skin. Some received blisters from the gas,
with one describing his [music] hands as having burns like battery acid. Tears streamed down their faces from the
pain. >> [music] >> Messages continued to droning over the loudspeaker. We are not entering the building.
David, this will not come to an end until you are all out of the building. We are ready to meet you and provide
appropriate medical attention. By 6:55 [music] a.m., the firing at the FBI's tanks had
stopped. The FBI hadn't fired back, but no one had emerged from the compound. >> [music]
>> At one point, someone had tossed the building's telephone outside the front door, but that was it.
The FBI continued on with plan B. By 7:09 a.m., they had used up almost their entire supply of 400 ferret round
canisters [music] and issued a request to local law enforcement agencies to send more.
Another hour went by with no one emerging from the compound. Byron Sage again encouraged the Branch
Davidians to come out, directing them to walk down the driveway and surrender to
the guys in the Bradleys. We don't want to hurt anyone. >> [music] >> Inside the chapel, as waves of gas
permeated the air, people quietly read their Bibles or listened to radio broadcasts.
The media had already picked up that [music] something serious was underway at Mount Carmel.
Ron Engelman, a Dallas-based radio presenter who was highly sympathetic [music] to the Branch Davidians, spoke
of his horror at the US government's actions while begging the Branch Davidians to come [music] out for their
own sakes. Some heard his message but didn't heed his advice, [music] scared that if they exited the building,
they'd be shot. David Koresh, [music] wearing a gas mask, split his time between still
working on his manuscript and checking in on his followers. At 9:47 a.m., someone from inside the
compound ducked out quickly to retrieve the phone thrown outside, shouting, "David's transcript is almost complete."
But the telephone line had been cut off by one of the tanks and the phone was useless.
Some Branch Davidians hung out a banner that read, "We want our phone fixed." The FBI tried to reconnect the phone but
couldn't. They continued issuing commands over the loudspeaker every 10 minutes.
Fierce winds blowing [music] 31 mph gusted into the compound from outside, whipping up the heavy clouds of gas.
[music] Earlier that morning, the weather service had issued a wind advisory for
Waco, which [music] the FBI had ignored. Now it was dispersing the gas they'd deposited. [music]
In response to this, the FBI pushed their tanks further into the compound in an attempt to corral the Branch
Davidians. [music] At 10:00 a.m., the tanks began crashing against the building's exterior walls,
crumbling them and causing the door to the cooler room, where most of the women and children were hiding, to dislodge.
The women had shut the door to prevent gas from leaking in, but it began to flood their shelter.
At the [music] same time, the roof above caved in along with parts of the walls,
pinning some women and children to the ground and killing others. Branch Davidians in other parts of the
compound were oblivious to the damage below. They raced from room to room trying to
dodge the walls that were caving in around them. A thick layer of dust from the gas
coated every surface inside. Just after 11:00 a.m., Byron [music] Sage announced,
"David, Steve, we're still here. So are you. We're placing tear gas and we'll continue to do so.
You are prolonging the inevitable. Your word has been hollow and false. We want you to exit now and submit
yourself to proper authorities. >> [music] >> There was no response from inside the
compound. The tanks demolished more parts of the building, knocking down the gymnasium
behind the chapel. Stairways [music] were broken, which trapped some Branch Davidians on the
upper levels. Finally managing [music] to reconnect the phone line, the FBI tried calling,
but nobody answered. >> [music] >> The listening devices were still picking up parts of conversations and human
movement inside, reassuring the FBI that people were alive, >> [music] >> but they suddenly ceased working after
being damaged by falling debris. Just after noon, >> [music] >> David Thibodeau suddenly heard somebody
shout, "Fire!" Flames had broken out almost simultaneously in three different sections of the building. [music]
David looked around for an escape route and saw one path was blocked by [music] a timber beam.
Climbing up to the upper level, he saw fireballs shooting down the corridor, forcing [music] him to retreat back
downstairs. The chapel was now entirely engulfed in flames. [music] David Thibodeau saw people huddled in a
corner trying to avoid the thick smoke. Within minutes of the fire [music] first
being noticed, more flames had erupted all throughout the compound. The entire building was [music] ablaze
and enormous plumes of black smoke emanated from the compound, >> [music] >> visible from 10 mi away.
At 12:12 p.m., Byron [music] Sage urgently requested that David Koresh lead his people out to safety.
1 minute later, the FBI called for assistance from the local fire department. They had no equipment at the ready to
fight such an immense blaze. At 12:25 [music] p.m., FBI agents heard gunshots ringing
out from inside the compound. When firefighters arrived 10 minutes [music] later, they were held back at a
perimeter out of concern they may be shot. While FBI agents were fearing gunfire,
some people inside Mount Carmel were too scared to attempt an escape for [music]
the same reason. At least one individual decided not to jump from a window out of fear
government agents would shoot him. Two men escaped out the back door to the cafeteria, only [music] to be struck by
FBI tanks. One lost a leg, the other's torso was torn open. David Thibodeau crawled on his hands and
knees following two other Branch Davidians who were headed towards a hole on the chapel's east side.
They managed to stagger outside away from the blaze >> [music] >> and made their way towards a Red Cross
sign positioned about 50 yards away. In total, [music] nine Branch Davidians managed to escape
the burning compound. Most escaped between [music] 12:20 and 12:30 p.m. by crawling through the same
hole as David Thibodeau or through another gap in the front of the compound. A man jumped from the second floor roof,
while a woman leapt from a second floor window covered in burns. [music] Another woman ran out, but upon seeing
the FBI tanks outside, turned around [music] and raced back inside the burning building.
A HRT agent saw her, left his armored vehicle, and [music] pursued the woman, pulling her back to safety as she fought
against him. >> [music] >> FBI agents intercepted the survivors, forcing them to lie in a row on the
ground and restraining their hands behind their backs. One agent demanded to know,
"Where are the women and children?" >> [music] >> At 12:41 p.m., firefighters finally
started battling the blaze. Believing the women and children were most likely hiding in the buried bus or
the tunnels that led to it, some HRT agents raced towards the compound, which was still burning.
Explosions occasionally went off as the huge amount of ammunition stockpiled by the Branch Davidians caught fire.
Making their way into some of the tunnels >> [music] >> and eventually the bus itself, HRT
agents found them to be cool and undamaged. In a state of shock, negotiator Byron
Sage approached the site and asked his colleagues, "Where are the kids?" As he learned that no one had been found
in the location where [music] they'd been expected to hide, the horrifying realization dawned
that all of [music] the children had been consumed by the inferno. It had been fast and deadly, engulfing
the entire flimsy [music] building within 10 to 30 minutes. By 12:30 [music] p.m., the roof had
collapsed and 2 minutes later, the compound was effectively gone. At 12:55 p.m., the flames [music] began
to die down due to a lack of material left to burn. It was a day before parts of the site
had cooled down enough to permit an examination of the wreckage and a week [music] before everything could be
properly searched. The Texas Rangers took command of the compound to undertake a proper crime
scene analysis. An arson team composed of experts from across the United States was tasked with
determining the cause of the fire. Amidst the rubble, they discovered 305 firearms and approximately 1.9 million
rounds of cooked-off or spent ammunition. By Monday, May 3, [music] 2 weeks after the fire, the Rangers had
also recovered the remains of 76 bodies, 53 adults and 21 children. Two young women, 17-year-old Aisha
Gyarfas and 24-year-old Nicole Gent, had been heavily pregnant when they died and
spontaneously [music] gave birth during the assault, adding two more infants to the death toll.
Both of these babies had been fathered by David Koresh. All 14 of his children died during the
fire. Medical examiners were only able to identify 35 individuals when performing
autopsies, leaving 40 unidentified. 18 children and 9 [music] women were found in the concrete cooler.
Most had died of smoke inhalation, [music] while some had been crushed by falling debris.
Rachel Koresh, David Koresh's wife, had been amongst these victims, [music] as was her younger sister, Michelle
Jones, and Steve Schneider's wife, Judy. Their children died alongside them. Three women and four children in the
bunker, including one infant, had died from gunshot wounds to the head and chest, seemingly in mercy killings.
A boy around two or three years old was killed by a stab wound to his [music] chest.
Elsewhere in the compound, smoke inhalation was the leading cause of death, killing [music] 33 people.
Nine people died from burns or a combination of burns and smoke inhalation. There were also further victims who had
chosen to be shot rather than burn, including six men, three women, [music] and one individual whose gender couldn't
be determined. The remains of 33-year-old David Koresh were recovered in the compound's
communications room, the office [music] area where he'd spent hours speaking to negotiators and writing his manuscript.
>> [music] >> Koresh had been killed by a single gunshot wound to the forehead. Steve Schneider's body was nearby.
He'd been shot in the [music] mouth. An autopsy couldn't confirm whether Koresh had taken his own life or been
killed by another. One FBI official speculated that in the final moments at Mount Carmel, Steve
[music] had probably realized that he was dealing with a fraud and had so murdered Koresh before turning the gun
on himself. [music] There is no definitive evidence to prove or disprove this theory.
>> [music] >> Right from the start of the standoff between federal authorities and the
Branch Davidians, the events at Waco had been a massive news story. It was followed closely and reported on
constantly by media outlets nationwide as well as overseas. When the siege [music] came to a brutal
end on its 51st day, the coverage went into overdrive. The deaths of so many individuals,
particularly such a high number of children, led to reporters and commentators expressing shock.
Headlines emphasized that this was a tragedy on a scale that felt completely unprecedented.
The public echoed these sentiments. The day after the fire, President Bill Clinton spoke about Waco with reporters
at the White House. Describing David Koresh as dangerous, irrational, and probably insane, he said
that the siege and enormous loss of life was not the fault of the government. Four federal agents were killed in the
line of duty trying to enforce the law against the Branch Davidian compound, which had illegally stockpiled weaponry
and ammunition, and placed [music] innocent children at risk, he said. Mr. Koresh's response to demands for his
surrender by federal agents was to destroy himself and murder the children who were his captives, as well as all
the other people who were there who did not survive. President Clinton defended the operation
that the FBI had undertaken the previous day, [music] while adding that the departments of
Justice and Treasury would be beginning an immediate investigation into what had
happened and why. [music] Attorney General Janet Reno was called to answer for her decision to approve
the use of tear gas. Why hadn't the FBI just waited the Branch Davidians out? Reno spoke to the media about that,
repeatedly emphasizing that she had approved the plan [music] because she'd received reports that children inside
the compound were being physically and sexually abused, [music] and was told the situation required
urgent action. FBI Director William Sessions distanced himself from these assertions, claiming
that he hadn't told Reno any such thing, and adding, "She's responsible for what she heard."
FBI documents later examined by the PBS program Frontline revealed that an unnamed agent had in fact made these
claims to Reno while the agency was pressuring her to approve the tear gas [music] plan.
Another question that needed to be answered was who started the fire. Almost immediately, the FBI and the
Department of Justice accused the Branch Davidians of deliberately starting the fire.
Listening devices that they had planted inside the compound had reportedly picked up snippets of incriminating
conversations on the morning of the fire, such as "Start the fire." "Got some fuel around here." And "Did
you pour it yet?" One person was recorded stating that David Koresh had ordered fuel to be
poured somewhere within the compound. "We should have gotten more hay in here." Someone lamented. "I know."
agreed another. One survivor would later recall he'd heard someone repeatedly commanding
"Light the fire." The flames had spread quickly due to the poor construction of the building, the
strong winds, and the holes in the walls made by FBI tanks, which further vented
the blaze. Additionally, there was a large amount of highly combustible materials inside
the compound. Not only was the building made from highly flammable materials, but the
Branch Davidians stacked hay bales along the walls to provide insulation and protection from external gunfire.
While some have theorized that the fire could have started accidentally due to tanks knocking over lanterns and space
[music] heaters, the arson team ultimately concluded that the fire was deliberately set by one or more persons
inside the compound. The arson investigation revealed the fire had three points of origin.
>> [music] >> Fuel containers and other chemical accelerants were found near these
points. A report released by the Department of Justice stated that these locations were
notably distant from one another. >> [music] >> The almost simultaneous conflagration of
the three fires meant it was not possible for them to be accidental or the result of a single ignition.
The [music] first point was on the second floor near the front of the building. The second was on the middle
of the first floor in the group's dining room. And the third was also on the first floor, but on the right side in
the chapel. >> [music] >> If the Branch Davidians did deliberately light the fire, author Jeff Guinn makes
clear that this is not a plan everybody would have known about. Quote, "Even in the best of times, group
communication was difficult when everyone was scattered in different parts of the sprawling building."
David Koresh might have informed as many followers as possible that the moment had arrived to die in flames and live
afterward in glory, but there would still have been dozens who had no idea of what was happening.
The government narrative around this theory has been that the Branch Davidians were participating in a mass
suicide, but biblical scholar J. Philip Arnold has suggested Koresh might have instead seen the fire as a kind of holy
barrier to protect his followers from the FBI. In the Bible's book of Zechariah, there
is a verse describing how God would save Jerusalem by surrounding the city with an impenetrable wall of fire.
This ties to another biblical passage in the book of Isaiah, a book that Koresh was known to draw heavily upon in his
teachings. Chapter 43, verse two, promises, "When you walk through the fire, you
will not be burned. The flames will not set you ablaze." Some people have rejected this
narrative, instead believing that the FBI was responsible for lighting the fires, either deliberately or
inadvertently. Early into the assault, two or three rounds of combustible pyrotechnic tear
gas shells were used in an attempt to penetrate a particular corner of the building, though they didn't succeed and
were fired hours before the fire started. The FBI initially denied they had been
used at all, but photographic and audio evidence proved that they had been. Conspiracy theories cropped up accusing
the government of deliberately burning down Mount Carmel. Although there is no evidence of this,
many have noted that the agency's actions on Monday, April 19, 1993 did create the situation that led to the
inferno and the enormous loss of human life. Moreover, they'd had intelligence about
the construction of Mount Carmel and had seen the hay bales and clothing strewn about inside.
Essentially, they had known it was a tinderbox, and yet they didn't put together a fire protection plan when
submitting their tear gas proposal. They hadn't had firefighting equipment at the ready on April 19 and were
completely unprepared when faced with the flames. The fallout of Waco was immense and led
to numerous government investigations, inquiries, and reports. Shortly after the fire, the Department
of Justice initiated internal reviews of federal actions, including a chronology
of how the entire siege unfolded and an evaluation of tactical decisions. While these reports contained no
recommendations that FBI agents be disciplined for their actions during the siege, the agency did make some
adjustments following Waco. A greater emphasis was placed on crisis negotiation over tactical responses, as
well as interagency cooperation to avoid conflicting approaches from different units.
Reflecting on the FBI's approach on April 19, 1993, many years later, one analyst observed [music] that
surrounding the compound with tanks while simultaneously imploring people to come out was highly unlikely to work.
Quote, "I've never had a warm, fuzzy feeling running toward a tank. Never in my entire life have I
encountered any mother who would let her child do that. I don't think that the manner in which
the tanks came in created any trust." The Department of Treasury, which had then oversaw the ATF, conducted its own
review of the first raid that had triggered the initial loss of life and events that followed.
It found that the February 28 raid should not have proceeded after the ATF lost the element of surprise.
ATF operation commander Phil Hoynatski and operations second in command Chuck Sarabyn were found [music] to have been
involved in altering key documents that were essential to the investigation. Both were fired but later appealed and
were reinstated on the proviso that they no longer be involved in field operations.
Three days before the report was released, the ATF director resigned. Following Waco, the ATF began focusing
on the worst of the worst gun law offenders, namely criminal gangs, rather than non-violent gun owners and dealers.
From 1993 to 1996, there were multiple congressional hearings and House Committee reports where members of
Congress interrogated law enforcement actions. More investigations followed as public
sentiment evolved over time. In the immediate aftermath of the siege, most members of the public sided with
the government. A CNN poll found that 70% of Americans agreed with the FBI's actions.
Within a few months, that number had dropped to 50%. By the late 1990s, public opinion had
shifted the other way with the majority of Americans believing the government had started the fire.
The widespread skepticism led to political pressure and was a factor in yet another report being commissioned by
the Department of Justice. In November 2000, the Danforth report was released. While it found that there was no
conspiracy or cover-up surrounding government actions, it did conclude that government employees had mishandled and
failed to disclose information, specifically about the use of combustible shells for hours before the
fire. The report was received well by the FBI, Attorney General Janet Reno, some
politicians, and much of the mainstream media, but it had its critics. They believed that it depended too
heavily on FBI accounts with civil liberties groups calling it soft. Former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark,
who went on to represent several Branch Davidians and their relatives in a civil
suit, was openly scathing, stating, "History will clearly record, I believe, that these assaults on the Mount Carmel
Church Center remains the greatest domestic law enforcement tragedy in the history of the United States."
Ramsey Clark wasn't alone in his opinion. The legacy of Waco on the American consciousness and US politics has been
enormous. As well as being furious about the huge loss of life, many were angry that the
ATF had planned a raid in the first place, [music] considering it an assault on the Branch Davidians' constitutional
rights to bear arms and to worship freely. Though arguments were made that Koresh
was sexually abusing underage girls in the compound, >> [music] >> opponents to the raid pointed out child
sexual abuse was not within the ATF's jurisdiction. Waco became a catalyst for individuals
already mistrustful of the federal government and a symbol of government tyranny and overreach.
After the siege ended, there was a notable rise in far-right anti-government militias.
Estimates have suggested that before Waco, there were a few dozen of these paramilitary [music] groups throughout
the entire United States. By 1995, there were hundreds. Some people made pilgrimages to the
Mount Carmel [music] site, which was essentially just an open rubble-strewn field.
On the morning of Wednesday, April 19, 1995, the second anniversary of the Waco fire, a 26-year-old named Timothy
McVeigh drove a rented truck to the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City and parked it out
the front. He lit the 2-minute fuse of a bomb that he'd constructed and mounted in the back
of the truck before exiting the vehicle. The bomb detonated at 9:02 a.m., destroying the north half of the
building. 168 people were killed, including 19 children who were attending a daycare
center on the second floor. 684 others were injured. McVeigh has claimed he wasn't aware
there was a daycare center in the building, but his co-conspirator, [music] Terry Nichols, said they'd both
known about it and hadn't cared. They'd chosen to target a government building at the beginning of a work day
as an act of vengeance [music] for the Waco and Ruby Ridge sieges. McVeigh had been enraged about the
federal government's actions at Waco and had driven to Mount Carmel during the siege to protest [music]
and sell bumper stickers. As someone drawn to white supremacist and white nationalist ideology, McVeigh
had little in common with the Branch Davidians, but he was fiercely anti-government.
As of the release of this episode, the Oklahoma City bombing remains the deadliest act [music] of domestic
terrorism in US history. On the same day that Timothy McVeigh was terrorizing Oklahoma City, Clive Doyle,
an Australian [music] Branch Davidian who'd survived the blaze, held a memorial service at Mount Carmel.
Other survivors attended and planted a grove of crepe myrtle trees along the driveway to honor their dead loved ones.
The service was also attended by far-right militia members dressed [music] in fatigues.
Several of them made anti-government speeches. Clive Doyle later told the Chicago
Tribune, "I didn't want any bashing. I wanted it to be a solemn occasion, but to be
honest, [music] they kind of took over the pulpit." In subsequent interviews, Clive repeated
his concern that the story of Waco had been co-opted by far-right and white supremacist groups.
A number of surviving Branch Davidians were criminally prosecuted after the siege.
12 were charged with conspiring to murder federal agents as well as aiding and abetting those murders.
They were also charged with unlawfully possessing and using various firearms. One of the 12 negotiated a plea bargain,
but the others went to trial. All of the Branch Davidians were acquitted on the murder charges.
However, five were convicted of voluntary manslaughter. Others received a lesser convictions
relating to firearm possession and use and of forcibly resisting arrest. Four were acquitted on all charges.
Those convicted faced a long prison sentences of up to 40 years. These were later reduced on appeal, and
the last Branch Davidian to be released from prison was British member Livingstone Fagan, who was freed in
2007. A number of survivors have written memoirs about their time following David
Koresh, including Mark Breault, David Thibodeau, and Clive Doyle. Today, David Thibodeau runs a website
called Waco Survivors, which is dedicated to archiving the story of Mount Carmel.
Mark Breault rejected Koresh's teachings long before the siege in Waco, but Clive
Doyle remained loyal to his prophet. [music] He became a kind of unofficial spokesperson for the Branch Davidians
and was often approached over the years by people who claimed to be the new embodiment of David Koresh.
Clive continued living in Waco and held a weekly Bible study with Sheila Martin,
the widow of Wayne Martin, until his death in 2022. Today, small communities of Branch
Davidians can still be found scattered throughout America and the world. In 1999, a group of volunteers rebuilt
[music] the church at Mount Carmel. It still stands, and a splinter group worships there under the name The
Branch, the Lord Our Righteousness. They are led by a former follower named Charles Pace, [music] who left in 1984
and returned after the siege. Pace [music] believes Koresh was a prophet who twisted the Bible's
teachings by taking other men's spouses and young girls as his wives. Pace has stated [music] that Koresh was
sent by God to commit sin, and that he was following God's orders to the very end.
The rebuilt chapel at Mount Carmel also operates as a kind [music] of museum about the Waco siege, with
anti-government posters pinned to the walls alongside photographs of the victims. [music]
Elsewhere on the sprawling 77 acres, are mobile homes occupied by the new Branch
Davidian community, and remnants of the original compound. >> [music] >> Visitors to the site can see the
original building's concrete foundation, the location of the bunker where women and children sheltered,
>> [music] >> and some crumpled metal remains of the half-buried school bus. >> [music]
>> Green fields surrounding the chapel are dotted with several different memorials
etched in [music] stone. There is one dedicated to the founders of the Branch Davidian movement, [music]
and all of those lost during the 51-day siege. Two other smaller memorials sit side-by-side, commemorating the victims
of the Oklahoma City bombing, [music] and the four ATF agents killed in the initial raid at Mount Carmel on February
28, 1993. And another marble stone planted firmly in the ground has been carved with words
[music] from the Book of Revelation, chapter 6, verses 9 to 10. Scripture that describes the opening of
the fifth seal. >> [music] >> I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and
for the testimony [music] which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying,
"How long, oh Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our [music] blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
>> [music]

[Part 3 of 3] The standoff between the FBI and the Branch Davidians held firm for more than a month, with David Koresh and his followers refusing to surrender. After attempting both negotiation tactics and more aggressive approaches for 51 days, the FBI implements a plan to force the Branch Davidians out, a plan that will have devastating consequences and will change the face of the United States forever.

CREDITS Narration – Anonymous Host Research & writing – Erin Munro Production & music – Mike Migas Audio editing – Anthony Telfer

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Brief Summary

The episode covers the Waco siege, focusing on FBI negotiations, Koresh's resistance, and the tragic fire that ended the standoff.

Key points

Tension Between FBI Units. Debate arises among FBI leaders on how to handle the situation with Koresh.
Media Circus at Waco. As the siege continues, a media frenzy develops around the events at Mount Carmel.
Koresh's Stubbornness. Koresh refuses to negotiate over his biological children, asserting his control.
FBI's Tactics Backfire. The FBI's loud music strategy fails, angering Koresh and solidifying resistance.
Negotiation Breakdown. Chief negotiator Gary Noesner is replaced as tensions rise and strategies clash.
DeGuerin Visits Koresh. Attorney Dick DeGuerin meets with David Koresh, discussing the events of the ATF raid.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

David's mad with you guys.

Steve Schneider warns the Branch Davidians about Koresh's anger.

8:37WatchMay 2, 2026

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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