The Yogurt Shop Murders /// Part 1 /// 866 | Forensic Files

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Premier September 1st at 9:00 p.m. Eastern on ID. >> Welcome to Off the Record. I'm your host
Nick Crime. >> It's good to be seen and it's good to see you. Off the record. Thanks for
listening. Thanks for telling a friend. >> True Crime Podcast. Be good, be kind,
and don't little. >> Gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime.
>> Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
for listening. This week we're doing a little bit of an off therecord style here because we were incredibly excited
about the docue series that recently came out on a case that we have been neck deep, nay, eyeballs deep into for
quite some time. And we are talking about the yogurt shop murders. We are drinking some beer of course here in the
garage today. We're excited to be featuring Home Eck Partners brewed by the fabulous folks at Moore Brewing
Company. Home Partners is a double coffee style aged for 36 months in Weller Special Reserve and Eagle Rare
Barrels. That's some very fine bourbon barrels. And then they mix in some vanilla beans and cocoa and dark matter
coffee. It's ABV 16.2%. So, make sure you drink this one at home or share it with your friends. But
speaking of friends, this beer is a nod to one of my favorite movies. And that movie is Super Bad. So, this beer
fantastic. Four and 3/4 bottle caps out of five. >> These eyes are crying. That's a little
nod to Super Bad. >> Exactly. Thank you for flexing the golden pipes here for us, Captain. The
yogurt shop murders in 1994. Four teenage girls were brutally murdered at a frozen yogurt shop in Austin, Texas.
This month, HBO just released a documentary on the still unsolved case, The Yogurt Shop Murders. This is a
four-part docue series that explores the case and the enduring mystery that forever changed the city of Austin,
Texas. The victims here, Captain, are Jennifer Harbison, Eliza Thomas. Both were 17 at the time. They worked they
were employees of the I can't believe it's yogurt which was located on West Anderson Lane in Austin. Jennifer's
sister Sarah Harbinson was 15 years old and Amy Ays was just 13. The two of them
arrived at the yogurt shop around closing time on December 6th, 1991. This with plans to attend a sleepover
together. Amy was a an eighth grader at Bernett Middle School. The other girls attended Laneir High School and the
murders occurred after the girls had finished cleaning up the shop and were preparing to close the shop for the
night before they could leave for that evening. Unfortunately, they were forced to the back room at gunpoint. There they
were shot in the head. Some were gagged, some were bound, and some were controlled with their own clothes. And
we can get into some of the details that we know about this case as we go through. Their bodies were stacked on
top of one another and a portion of the yogurt shop was set on fire. The fire was likely set to destroy evidence. The
crime was particularly shocking for Austin, which was considered a relatively safe city at the time. The
case has remained a source of grief and pain for the families and the community for all of this time.
>> And we've covered this case extensively. We recovered it when we were heading
down to Austin for Crime Con a few years back and it's one of I'd say one of your
pet cases. >> Yeah. So, we looked into this case in 2017 and then re-examined it again when it
hit the sad 30-year anniversary in 2021 at the start of December of 2021. I'm excited that HBO is doing the docu
series because if you go to Texas, especially of course in Austin, it's a case that cannot receive enough
attention because there's so many people that say, and this this was publicly announced by
the mayor and folks on the news at the time, that this is when Austin truly lost its innocence forever. And so there
are many people that live in this area that will tell you this is a big marker, a big event on their timelines and of
their lives where there are things events that occurred before Yogurt Shop and there are things that were after
Yogurt Shop. So, I was excited to see that while we have covered it probably about four hours or so of coverage of
this case in our own regard, but I I don't shy away from viewing, listening, or reading anything that comes out about
this case. In fact, in 2017 when we covered it, we relied on different materials and such than what we used for
the 2021 coverage. So, we were able to kind of go back and re-examine it through a
different angle, present information that we did not present the first time around. There's no shortage of
information out there about this case. There's no shortage of speculation about this case. And anybody if you
don't know anything about this case at all and you started to watch the first episode or two, you'll see immediately
why there is so much speculation about this case. One thing I think people are surprised to learn is that we don't
always when the new crime book comes out or the new true crime documentary comes
out, we don't always dive in head first. A lot of the time it's because we're working on a case to present it to you
the the following week. But when it's a case like this, one that is, like I said, probably arguably one of your top
cases that you've looked into, there's some excitement because, well, one, HBO does it right.
>> And I think this documentary is very important. So, if you don't watch a ton of true crime documentaries, this one I
think is really important. And I think Margaret Brown, which is the director and I believe like the producer of this,
but we're kind of discussing this idea back with the Amy Bradley case is true crime documentaries have changed a lot
since the '9s. And HBO has been on the front lines of putting out some of the best true crime documentaries of all
time. And I think this one there's a there's a nostalgia to it. And I think it's done more in the in the old school
way where I think true crime documentaries have become more about not so much the information but more as an
entertainment. And we see that with true crime podcasts. Some true crime podcasts
are more about the facts and putting out information about the case. And I think
other ones are about just being entertaining and not sticking always to the facts. I think we're probably a mix
somewhere in between. We try to lean heavy on just the facts man. And then obviously we have this individual in the
garage that keeps showing up, this drunken captain that says ridiculous horseshit from time to time. But this
one hits you so hard. It's very emotional. Like I said, it's really important. And there's something about
that HBO intro where it goes to the static screen and just from the word jump. I just really think this one isn't
important. The case very early on was had several different names. The ICBY murders, the ICBY
case, the yogurt shop murders. The one that seems to have stuck here is the yogurt shop murders. And in fact, at the
local level, it's often just referred to as yogurt shop. It's such a a depressing
and devastating case that that most folks in Austin just remove the word murders from it. And it's just you can
say yogurt shop and anybody there knows immediately what you are referencing. The new HBO docue series is also titled
The Yogurt Shop Murders. The docue series explores the case, its impact on the community, and the ongoing
investigation. The series includes interviews with family members, investigators, and others that were
involved in the case over the years, as well as footage from the original investigation. The series delves into
the complexities of memory and how it can be both a source of comfort and a trap, particularly in a case like this
where false confessions and misremembered details play a pivotal role and in fact a huge role in this
case as this is one that has drag on for many years. Like said, like we said, we
covered it once it hit the three decade mark. As much has been learned about this case during the course of that
three decades and beyond. Again, there's still so many questions about it. The the first episode here, Captain, from
the great folks over at HBO was titled Fire and Water, and the HBO description of this episode is in 1991,
the murder of four teenage girls. rocks the city of Austin, Texas. But a lack of
hard evidence soon thwarts the investigation. Four victims, possibly in most likely more than one killer, but
because of the fire and because of the firefighters trying to put out the fire, the crime scene becomes very compromised
and contaminated. >> Yeah. The folks over at Rotten Tomatoes give a a lengthier description
which will give us a bit to chew on here. So, from rottentomatoes.com, they say in 1991, the murder of 14
teenage girls rocks the city of Austin, Texas. Amy Ays, 13, sisters Jennifer Harbison, age 17, and Sarah Harbison,
15, and Eliza Thomas, 17, were at the yogurt shop where Jennifer and Eliza worked at closing time, but never
returned home. They were found later that night in the rubble of the store, which had been set on fire. One week
after the murders, 16-year-old Maurice Pierce is arrested at a local mall carrying a gun. Under questioning, he
implicates his friend Forest Wellborn. Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott in the crimes. As the families grieve in
the community comes together to find ways to heal, the police are thwarted in their investigations by the lack of hard
evidence. So, let's dive in a bit here. I want to start with talking about the portion of our Rotten Tomatoes
description that says, "One week after the murders, 16-year-old Maurice Pierce is arrested at a local mall carrying a
gun." >> Well, and the thing about the gun is it matches the caliber of one of the guns
used in the murders. >> Exactly. That's exactly correct. So, Maurice Pierce, all four of these dudes
are I think Detective Jones refers to them as dudes without dates. And he kind of means like guys that don't keep up so
much on their hygiene. They're not overly impressive guys to girls. They're kind of hanging out at malls and up to
no good. >> Yeah. One of the quotes is uh one of the individuals couldn't put together a
twocar parade. that was said about Forest Wellorn. Maurice Pierce is I hate to use the term badass, but I
think that's how at least how he carries himself or probably thinks of himself. Yeah. And really these four are just two
of them are already high school dropouts by this time. And eventually when they are arrested many, many years later, it
will be reported that all four of them are high school dropouts. Now, one of them went back and actually got a GED,
but that is sort of the state of things in 1991 and 1992 as far as their lives go. Now, one thing that I find really
troubling here is this, let's say, first confession because it truly is Maurice Pierce, who is exactly like this
description says, implicates his friends as having some kind of level of involvement in the crimes. Okay? So,
he's picked up. He's arrested. And when he's arrested with this gun, well, why do you have it on your person? Just to
be carrying it is what he says. Just to be carrying it. I wish this young man would have known at the time the
consequence of that statement. And as you said, Captain, it matches the caliber of gun that was used in the
commission of these four homicides. So, police want to know right away, how'd you get this gun? and is it the
gun the gun that we are looking for in this case? There were several items of hold back information
and a lot of that hold back information found its way to to leaking out to the public and kind of little little tidbits
of knowledge and information over the days, weeks, and months and years that this case lingered on. At this time, I
think what was regularly reported was that it was a small caliber gun was used to kill the girls. So, I don't know if
it was as specific as a 22, but that is what he is carrying on his person when he's picked up at the mall. Maurice
Pierce tells the investigators this is Sergeant Palanco. the his initial story is so different from where this thing
ends up several years later. And that's one of the very first items that I question and think about so much when
trying to dissect and examine this case because he says very simply to Palanco that we were driving around. I he says
where he got the gun from. I don't have it in my notes, but but that that person
is named. They know who that person is, who he got the gun from. I think it was just as simple as we're some teenage
kids. We're kind of up to no good and either he traded something or purchased the gun off of another teenager that he
knew and that teen that teenager had stolen the gun from his father. It's Texas. A lot of people have guns. So he
gets this gun and his story to Palano is well we were the night of the murders we
were driving around. We drove up behind the yogurt shop which is in a strip mall
>> plaza shopping plaza. So you have store after store after store. Behind the store there's a back door. There's a
back door to each one of these stores that are part of this plaza. And each one of them has its own designated
dumpster. Behind the plaza is a creek which will play a role in the docue series as well, but it also plays a big
role in this first confession or admission of having some involvement in the crime, if you will. So, Maurice
Pierce tells Palanco, you know, we're driving around just trying to have a good time. It's a Friday night in Texas.
It's getting late. We're just having a good time. My buddy Forest told me earlier that, you know, we got this 22
gun, 22 caliber gun. I want to do something with this gun. And that's his exact words. I I want to What do you
want to do tonight? I want to do something with this gun. Maurice Pierce tells Palano that he then dropped his
friend off, Forest Wellorn, with this gun, the 22 caliber, behind the shopping plaza. Forest went down to the creek to
hang out with some skin heads and later tells him that he had something to do with the murders. To clear a few things
up here, yes, all four of these young men are are friends. They're riding around together that night. They hung
out together a decent amount, but the dynamics of their friendship, Maurice Pierce and Forest Wellorn are very
close. They're those two are like best friends if you will at this time >> right
>> now. The other two men Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott >> paper company >> those two are are best friends. So when
you think about this forsome here kind of think of it as more as two and two. In fact, Michael Scott and and
Springsteen are living together at this time and and both had essentially dropped out of high school already. They
while it's not been official, they've both stopped going to class. In fact, I think Michael Scott or Springsteen or
both had at some point said that the last time they remember going to school prior to the murders, which took place
in early December of ' 91, was sometime in September of ' 91. So, they had not been going to school for a while. It's
unclear how much their parents knew of this situation. The other thing that is not presented in this first episode,
which again, you can examine a lot of the stuff and not know if it plays a role in it or not, but it's it's always
important to take in as much information and details as you possibly can and then
later try to figure out if it means anything to the case. But Robert Springsteen was from, I believe, from
Yeah, he's from West Virginia. He was only in Austin, Texas for less than a year. I believe it was a very short
period of time. You'll see some reports that come out and I I don't know. I don't think that this is trying to make
him look more guilty than he potentially is or if it's just bad information. But
Robert Springsteen, it's often reported early on in this case that he he moved back to West Virginia just weeks after
the murders, which which is true, but when I hear the words weeks, that sounds to me like two, three weeks and this
dude got out of Austin, Texas. Oh, why do you want to get out of there so quick? Who knows? He probably has
probably wants to get out of there to avoid capture identification, >> right? >> He actually moved back sometime in
January. There's so weeks still apply here, but he moves back to West Virginia in January, and that's reported and
confirmed by several different sources. In fact, sources that are closer to him than the earlier sources were reporting.
He and Michael Scott are living at Springsteen's dad's condo. And the way I remember this, Captain, I
believe they actually had two condos and the boys were living in one and the dad
and his girlfriend were living in the the other side by side. >> Parent of the year.
>> Well, there's a lot of things that go into pointing to these guys as being involved in this in these murders. And
one part of that will be Springsteen's father actually calls family services, the department of family services and
reports his son as you know not knowing where he is. That will tie them back to this case time and time again as well.
So, but in think about this initial statement that Pierce gives to police that he dropped off his friend Forest
Wellelburn with the gun. Forest then goes down to the creek. The docue series refers to these people as Creek people,
which which is a strange label to have. >> These individuals are supposed to be skin heads. And and so that's what's
confusing about this whole scenario is you go, "Okay, so if this guy had the gun and he gave it to this guy and he
went to hang out with skin heads, how do the four friends get tangled up in this
whole that they're guilty of the the crime? And where did these skin heads go?" >> Exactly. So, a couple things that happen
here. We we will later learn that there were two guns used in the commission of these murders. Forest is dropped off. If
we are to believe this, he goes down and he hangs out with these skin heads. Later, Forest will tell Maurice Pierce
that that we went in there and we killed them, meaning the girls, and we lit the
place on fire, and he says Pierce reports to Palanco that Forest told him that he liked watching the girls burn.
So, pretty damning stuff, right? But ultimately what takes place in 1991, mind you this is what 9 10 days after
the murders. Palano and then detective John Jones who I would say he's the lead on this, but this is a case that that
saw many different detectives and oftentimes teams of detectives working this case together.
>> Well, I really like John Jones's demeanor. He seems like a detective that is looking for the truth. He's not just
looking to close the case. He's looking for evidence. And he keeps throughout this docue series, he keeps on saying,
"Are these people the killer or or is this other suspect the killer? I don't know. Show me the evidence of that."
Yeah. He's a very evidenced driven detective. What's interesting to me here is the docue series kind of cites that
Pierce told Palanco one version of the story and told Detective Jones a completely different version that has no
involvement at all. HBO presents it as that is why they moved on from this theory, this possibility, this potential
suspect or suspects. And what we have in this other detective, Hector Palanco, is
he's a pretty scary looking dude with a porn star mustache. just seeing a picture of the guy or seeing video of
the guy, he doesn't really present himself too much in this documentary because he was eventually kicked off
this case because they were convinced that he was I don't know how you would want to frame this, but in my mind, if
I'm his superior, I'm looking at Hector going, "Well, that's great that you can get confessions, but you seem to be too
good at getting confessions." Well, and speaking of superiors, he's he's a detective sergeant rank at this time.
So, he's a higher ranking detective, and he's actually Jones's superior at this time, and and the superior officer to
many of the detectives in that bureau. Now, of course, he's got bosses and bosses above
them and bosses above them as well. Um, so he does have folks that he has to answer to, but to put it short and sweet
without having to get into the details too much, he was able to pull false confessions out of many different people
that I'm trying to figure out the most proper way to present this and to say this
because I know for a fact and there's been evidence to show this, at least in one situation, he manufactured actured
confessions and sent persons to prison. I be I believe both of them were sentenced to life in prison and then
later it was determined that those confessions were manufactured by him by Hector Blanco and that was proven by
another confession and by DNA evidence. So you can't argue against that too much. As far as some other cases, I know
that other cases were cited throughout time. Keep in mind, I've been reviewing this
case on and off again periodically since 2017. So, there were other cases that people
have suggested. I don't know if they were proven that he manufactured confessions during those, but the
general statement that's provided here in the docue series was Detective Palano could get a confession out of an
innocent person. And because he couldn't get a great confession from Maurice Pierce, well then Pierce has got to be
innocent. And so that it's kind of presented that they move on from Pierce and from Forest regarding that. But the
truth here, Captain, is they actually move on from Maurice Pierce and Forest Welbborne because they mike up Maurice
Pierce and they send him to go talk to his best friend, Forest Well. And they and they say, "Get it on tape, man. Get
it on tape." And he's asking him, he's probing him question after question after question to Forest about the case.
Hey, remember the other night you said you killed those girls? you lit him on fire and the best that they get from
Force is he's like, "Yeah, you know, I was joking about that." Yeah, you you have obviously know that I was joking
about that. >> Yeah. He says, "I'm playing around." And and then his friend says, "Well, that's
not something you should really play around about." And he's like, "Yeah, but you know, I'm playing around. You know
this." And then he goes, "I couldn't have done these murders because I was with you."
>> Yep. I was with you. And then the two of them go into a recorded argument that
night about who is more scared or sad or angry about the murders or being accused
of it. That is primarily why they move on from these two because it sounds like once they put in the investigative
effort and resources and the time that when they review this recorded conversation when no police or
detectives are present between Maurice and Forest, there's nothing to work with there. In fact, it appears that Maurice
probably just told Palano something that he thought that Palano wanted to hear. And when he sits down with Detective
Jones and gives a written statement, that statement is completely different. [Music]
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[Music] All right, we are back. Talks in the air. Cheers, mates. This beverage is
strong, my friend. >> It's from Super Bad and it's super good. Cheers to everybody.
Yeah, but here's one of the things, like I said, I think this is a very important
documentary. I think if you are a armchair detective, I think if you are fascinated with true crime, if you're a
true crime addict like we are, I think you learn a lot about not just the investigations, but the demeanor of
different individuals. And like I said, I think Detective Jones is going, I I'm trying to find the truth. Detective
Palanco to me is a guy that wants to win. Doesn't matter if I get the right guy as long as if as long as I get a guy
for the crime. So they wire up Maurice and they don't get essentially a confession, but we have this confession
that he kind of gave to Palanco. But what I hate in all these stories, and I've been saying it for 10 freaking
years, is I hate narratives that are [ __ ] that are horseshit. my friend. And one of the things in this case when
you're looking at it and you go, "Well, here's these four individuals that were accused and and later we get a
confession that people say is a false confession." Some people will look at this case and go, "They had a false
confession and that's all they had." No, that's not true. And I'm not saying that
these guys are guilty, but what I'm saying is the narrative is horshit. You have one within a couple weeks of the
murder, this guy walking around with a loaded gun at a mall. That's kind of weird. That's kind of bizarre. The day
after the murders, these individuals stole a car and drove to San Antonio when they are talked to by law
enforcement. And if you talk to their family and friends and everybody, these guys, and we all know these types of
guys, these guys that got out of school or didn't finish school, they didn't know what the heck to do with their
lives. They didn't know where they fit into the world. Now, that doesn't mean that they killed these four girls and
lit the place on fire, but I think when you're looking into these cases, we can't have these horseshit narratives of
just, well, they had this confession and that's all they had. There's more to it.
And and you you see that with other cases. You see that with the West Memphis 3. You see that now with the
Deli murders, people saying all you have is this confession. That's not all you have. We have you have to build up these
little piles of evidence and I think there is some evidence against these four in this case. Now, does that mean
that they that they're responsible? No. But to say that there's no evidence at all other than a false confession, I
think is nonsense. >> I don't mean to challenge you on this and I agree absolutely in other cases
that is exactly the situation. But here I I fail to see where there is any evidence beyond the the confessions.
>> Okay. So, do you think having a a gun the same caliber within a couple miles of the crime within a couple weeks of
the crime is is nothing? >> No, I think it's absolutely something. And I think that that it is something
that is worth investigating. And then they did investigate it and nothing came of it. What I mean by that is it's
something. It's absolutely something. You're 100% spot on with that. But you investigate it and you investigate it.
And when they moved on from it, they move on from it because it turns out that that lead never developed into
evidence. It was simply a lead, but it wasn't evidence. I I agree and kind of disagree because I also think that lead
also leads you to whether or not initially they confess to the crime, they end up putting themselves in the
vicinity of the crime the day of the murders. They're also within a 24-hour window of a mass murder, they're
stealing a car and driving to another town. And I just think this has you just have to pile this up.
>> But then returning back to Austin the very next morning, you know, they're not
they're not leaving to go to San Antonio and and stay gone. They're they're just
going to try to hang out with some friends, >> right? But if I'm a detective, I'm not
I'm not viewing it so much that they didn't I'm not viewing it as they stole a car and they went on the run. I'm
going, but these guys stole a car. This is criminal activity. So, you have a gun. Now, what makes no sense to me, and
I don't know why the documentary doesn't explore this, but you have the gun. Can't you do some ballistic test on this
gun? >> Well, see, that's where I'm saying the lead never developed into evidence
because they actually did. They ran ballistics on it twice and both times it came up negative. No match. And I think
the other problem with this case and and so many other cases, I mean, the Deli case is so frustrating because it's a
crime that happened outside and part of the crime possibly happened within water. The the West Memphis 3 case, a
crime that again outside and the victims were found in water. and the yogurt shop
murder case, you have fire and water that destroys so much evidence. And I did think one of the most fascinating
things, again, like I said, and somebody's going to go, "Enough with this already, Captain. You keep telling
us it's important." I thought it was really important to go, it's it's 91 and DNA is not much of a thing. But they
basically the detectives on the scene had to basically fight to say, "Hey, hey, we got to try to collect this
evidence before you take the bodies." If they would have took those bodies without letting them collect that
evidence, we'd have almost nothing in this case. >> Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that was
fantastic. That was great police work by them back then in 1991. There was I'm not going to say that this was a perfect
investigation. Look, there are perfect investigations out there that don't lead to somebody behind bars. Just because
something doesn't get solved doesn't mean that it wasn't handled correctly and worked to perfection. While they did
that and that was really important to the case and how the investigation will morph and advance and devolve throughout
time that the DNA collecting was incredibly important. They they were working against all kinds of obstacles.
Fire and water. The the first episode appropriately titled fire and water. And I make I want to make sure we dive into
that. Let's get into the fire part of it here. >> Yeah. Can you explain to me how the fire
was started? >> I'm going to do my very best. Okay. One thing that I hate is fire science
because I've seen it presented many different ways over the course of many different cases and sometimes many
different ways within the in one case itself. When we say fire science, I don't look at it so much of a science.
But I also think that people over complicate trying to figure out fire. And I think if you break it down to its
most simplest of forms, you will have your answers. So the episode's titled Fire and Water. Let's start with fire.
Okay, this is from a October 1999 Austin American Statesman article. And I'm just going to pull a couple of
pieces here from it. So, there's a senior firearm examiner from the North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation
who is quoted a few times in this article as well as several other investigators. And here's what they have
to say. The fire was only the first threat to evidence in the yogurt shop. Quote, "Then when the fire people came,
they got out the hoses and washed everything away." This is from an expert. His last name is Beardo. And he
goes on to say, "By the time they found the bodies, they were in several inches of water. When firefighters responded,
one of their first goals is to douse the fire, not to save evidence. And in doing
so, they can move bodies and disrupt evidence such as fingerprints, bits of hair, pieces of clothing, and blood. And
this is according to the state fire marshal." >> Yeah. Not to be gross, but also seammen.
So they go on to say, "Your evidence can even run out the front door with the hose stream." Now, when the firefighters
arrive on the scene, they check the front door before they pry it open or bust through. And when they check the
front door, the door is locked. Okay? And so now we got to put out this fire. The back door to this to this business
is not locked. It's found unlocked. They go on to say in this article, "It's just
the risk we have to take." Meaning, when we show up, our job is to put out the fire. It can destroy evidence. And keep
in mind, when they responded, they were responding to a fire, not to a quadruple
homicide. They don't know that there's a body in there until the firefighters are
in there working. When one of them spots a foot and then later, they spot a piece
a portion of another body. And that's when one then one of the firefighters say, "Look, we got to we need to stop
here. Uh there's something wrong with this scene. There's something wrong here. We need we need to stop. We're
we're destroying evidence." One thing that is often and regularly left out of this story, which aggravates me to no
end, is a very I think it's a very important detail. >> Yeah. >> When the firefighters opened up the back
door to start to go in before they had hosed anything, >> right? Do you know what they were met
with? Not just fire. They hadn't seen the body. They don't see the body still. They're inside. But opening up that back
door, do you know what they're met with? Not just smoke and flame. Water. They were met with water. There was already
water damaging that crime scene before the firefighters damaged it further with the water. The flames were so hot. the
the fire was so intensely hot that it caused a PVC pipe to burst and so you just had flowing water. They they said
when they opened up the door, water came rushing out. They speculate that it could have been as much as 1 in to 2 or
3 in of water that was already covering that back portion of the store before they even got there. You have the PVC
pipe water destroying the crime scene. You have the fire destroying the crime scene and then you have the fire
department just doing their jobs further destroying the the crime scene and evidence.
>> I think one of the things that was so powerful in this documentary is the 24year-old I think she was the manager
and she had to go identify the bodies. >> Mhm. And I was telling you earlier, I I really like broke down
multiple times watching this docue series. And when she says that she knew it was better that she identifies the
victims than to have family members have to do it, she says victims didn't have faces. where you burn the fastest is
where the skin is the tightest on the body. And unfortunately, if you I mean, you can just like kind of pinch around
on at parts of of your body. And guess where it's really hard to pinch is your forehead. So often times you will find
at these scenes that when a person is burned up, and there's no polite way of saying it, but that's what happened
here. Three of the victims were were incredibly burned up. Uh it's it really it really starts to you really start to
burn up quickly at your forehead cuz there's not a whole lot to grab onto there. And another part is like the
center of your chest, especially for for males. And then maybe like the the bottoms of your feet. So you can
>> Well, my love handles would last through probably two or three fires, >> probably weeks of of a forest fire. we
would just find your honches. >> Yeah, you just >> there's no body, just honches.
>> To expand on some of that, I go back to this article where they say, quote, "Your evidence may even run out the
front door with your hose stream." That according to the Travis County Fire Marshal, which Travis County is where
Austin is located. Quote, "It's just a risk we have to take." The article goes on to say, "Still experts said said
clues will survive even the worst fire where temperatures reach 1500° or more. Quote, "Does a fire completely
obliterate everything?" "No," says Jerry Niles, the vice president of the International Association of Arson
Investigators. Quote, "There is always something there. It just may take a lot of hard work and a lot of time to dig it
out." But another part that's interesting here too, Captain, is while we when we hear about the fire and even
when you see it on the HBO documentary, I think oftentimes our imaginations can start to run wild, we have to go back to
what they were saying in 1991. The officials responding to the scene in 1991 said that although three of the
girls were burned beyond recognition, the fire was relatively minor and was quickly extinguished. which is bizarre.
Which makes me think that there was some kind of accelerant placed on the victims.
>> Yes. And I think that's where most people's minds would go, >> right? >> But >> but you're telling me I'm wrong.
>> Yes. So the thing here is it goes back to how things burn. We are organic matter and everything burns differently
and at different temperatures and it takes different lengths of time for things to to burn up. In fact, like you
see in the crime scene photos, you you see things that have completely burned up. You see some items that have melted.
A human body won't melt. We will get burned up. We will char. And in fact, our bones actually never really burn up.
they just they just really start to break down and disintegrate and break into smaller and smaller pieces. The
responding officer saying that the fire was relatively minor and quickly extinguished makes sense when you if you
have that in mind when you're looking at those crime scene photos because what you see is there was was little to no
fire in the front of the house of this business. Very little fire that made its way to the front of the house. And can I
talk about this layout just a little bit? >> Yeah. >> Because again, we've covered this for
hours. >> In the docu series, they talk about how they have the four victims pictures up
in the police department and they actually have um a model >> of the yogurt shop in the police
department. I know that we have talked extensively about the layout and I've seen pictures before, but there was
maybe a 10-second clip where they show the inside. And what's shocking to me is when you think of a ice cream place,
even like a fro yo, there's the counter, you got the little glass thing, you got
the toppings, you normally have the ice cream where people scoop. Obviously, this is not ice cream. Can't believe
it's not ice cream. Can't believe it's yogurt. One of the worst names ever. Not even a good logo. But to me, this looks
like almost a like a DMV or a a bank where you have this wall that's separating the employees from the
customers. and you have tables and chairs and all that, but you have this and it's just like a wood panel wall
with these I'm guessing they're glass, but these two little glass windows. And so I I I don't know exactly what the
importance of all this, but obviously law enforcement thinks that the layout is somewhat important. And I don't know if
the lock front door and the unlocked back door really implies anything other than maybe the killers left through the
back. I don't think just in and tell me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the lock
front door tells me anything about how they entered. And we do have some eyewitnesses that see some individuals
cuz we have customers. So, we have those eyewitnesses. And then there's it's a it's the other problem too is it's a
strip mall. What do teenagers do on a Friday night? You might just hang out by the strip mall. But what you also do on
a Friday night when you're a teenager, you go visit your other teenage friends working at public locations like a
yogurt shop where you might not be a customer, but you might just swing in to say hi cuz you're bored and you're
driving around town. Well, the back of the house for the ICBY contained bathrooms, stock room, and the
office for the business. Oftent times when this case is reported, Amy was found away from the other three victims.
And it's often said in a way that I think implies that she's this great distance from the other three victims.
Remember, the three were very burned up. Amy, not so much. Yes, it tells us a part of the story that we need to learn
more about. Why is her body positioned here and found here away from the other three victims? When we look at something
and say, "Oh, well, the the other three victims were stacked on one another. What's the significance of that?" I say,
"Who cares?" You some of this stuff you have to move on and move past, right? because you collect as much information
as you can and then you see where it may factor into what actually happened. What
was what did the fire expert say when he was talking about our first job is to put out the fire and then we figure out
what happened. He said how pressurized that pressurized water powerful water coming out of those fire hoses can even
move bodies. Not just destroy evidence, move evidence, but it can even move bodies. So, what I think we have to look
at here is we can say that there's evidence to back up the idea that Amy was here and died here and the other
three died over here. I think that's absolutely factual based off of the fire damage that was done. What what I say we
have to move on from and not put much weight into at all was the stacking of the bodies because it's not absurd to
think that the fire hose may have rolled one of those bodies on top of the other.
So you have to look at what was going on before the fire hoses started disrupting
your scene. What was going on was a fire, >> right? >> Okay. And you had asked, well, where did
the fire start? Did did they did they set the girls on fire? We're organic matter. And think about what we are made
up of. We're mostly made up of water. So while the general public doesn't think of it this way, we're a person is very
hard to burn up. >> Well, I'm 65% coffee and another 35% jelly donuts. And that's one thing that
I think that they got wrong here because the average Joe and we actually see this
with Michael Scott when he is being interrogated and he starts to break down and he starts to lose his mind. What
does he say? He goes, "Where did the fire start, Michael? Where did the fire start?" You know, I lit them on fire.
No, you didn't. I I don't believe that the fire started on top of the girls. I do believe the fire was absolutely set
to destroy evidence, but I but it was clearly to me set on the the portion of the stock room that had all of the the
items that they would need to restock. And the a lot of these items are paper items, too.
>> Yeah. >> And so if I'm at a scene and I know what I'm doing, I'm like I'm putting my
accelerant and my flame on that shelf. And so what we see here with the fire, those shelves were melted.
>> The shelves that were holding paper products. >> Yeah, those are stainless steel shelves.
If if we learn nothing more about this case than this detail here, this is one thing that we need to walk away from
this episode with the general understanding. And a lot of this is pretty obvious stuff, but in the chaos
of the scene, you don't take it in as a viewer or as a reader or as a listener. Sometimes things have to be laid out,
even if they're obvious. But stainless steel melts at a temperature range between 2,500°
F and 2,800° F. >> Jesus. human bone during the cremation process, they only used temperatures of
1,400 to,800 degrees Fahrenheit. So for those stainless steel shelves to melt, that fire was at the very least, and
this is a conser, this is very conservative, at the very least 1,000° hotter than what it would take to use in
the cremation process. The fire wasn't set on the three victims. It just means they were so much closer to the fire.
And then to back up the statement of the fire was relatively minor and extinguished rather quickly, let's go
back to the distance between the victim that wasn't burned up and the three that
were unrecognizably burned up beyond recognition is what they say. The fact of the matter is
she's only like four or 5t from the other victims. So that would make sense that the fire was relatively contained
to a very specific area and portion of this store before it was extinguished by the firefighters.
>> But tell me if >> they tried to start the fire on those girls. Sorry. And there's again I need
to quit apologizing but I can't help but picture the girls and think of their families when saying these horrible
things that we have to say sometimes. But if the fire was if they attempted to start the fire on the girls, either they
moved on and set the fire elsewhere very quickly and learned that that's not going to work. Remember, they're not
wearing any clothing at this time. The clothing is going to be what would burn up and help to start the fire on the
girls. They would have been there all night trying to burn that building all night. They the police would have
arrived on scene and found the perpetrator still in the back of the building trying to get some fire going
if they would have just stuck to that. >> That's one of the things I find odd though. Okay, I'm going to start this
fire to destroy evidence, but the victims don't have their clothes on. You would think if you were trying to just
burn the victims that you would want them to have their clothes on cuz we know the clothes will catch fire. I'm
glad that you pointed that out because in the docue series there's a filmmaker and I'm sorry I don't have her name but
they use a lot of her footage because she was planning on making a a documentary about false confessions I
believe >> and using the yogurt shop murders as the subject or the case subject. And during
the filming, she's showing some video footage that she has and she has one of the victim's mothers. And the first
question she asks of the victim's mother is, "So tell me about how your daughter
died." And she shuts off the cuz she's playing on her laptop or whatever and she shuts it off really quickly and and
she's kind of disgusted with herself. But this this docue series made me question
what the heck am I doing with my life? Because sometimes we say stuff that like I know what we're trying to do. I know
that we're trying to put out information about cases and hopefully that leads to
solving the cases or at least keeping these stories. This this shit's important. when you hear that manager
say, "I knew that I had to identify these victims so the family members didn't have to." And so whatever those
girls went through, it's important that this [ __ ] gets solved. I'm glad that you
said that cuz there's sometimes that we're recording and talking about stuff and I sometimes I feel like a big
[ __ ] and then sometimes I feel like a [ __ ] for saying something that's kind of silly or whatever, but it's like
I'm I'm only doing it for my own mental health and maybe some of the mental health of the people out there listening
to this stuff. Well, the very best detectives in my humble garage opinion out there that I've studied over the
years will they they all kind of echo the same general statement of our number one job as a detective is to try to walk
in the shoes of the victim. So, when we're presenting these cases, once we flip on the microphone sitting here in
the garage, the thing I keep in the back of my mind, I try to I just visualize the victim looking over my shoulder the
entire time. And when I'm up against it and I'm conflicted on should I say something or not, I look to the victim
and and a lot of times I think they're telling me no, say it. Especially in these unsolved cases because just like
you said, what can this tell us about? We have to learn as much as we can about the details of the crime because one of
those details or many of those details, whatever, could lead us to the person responsible or tell us something about
the person or persons who did this. >> Right? These girls were burned far more severely than thirdderee burns. But to
put things in perspective here, thirdderee burns on skin and tissue. It is typically
at just 165° F. And so I just keep going back to the the idea that it all that tells us is
that they were much they were closer to the fire than the other victim. They were burned up significantly more, but
that distance was only four or 5 ft. And so that does back up that whole statement of the fire was relatively
minor. It was easily extinguished because it was somewhat contained. It hadn't taken off yet. The PVC pipe
itself, while it can, you know, start to melt at a lower temperature than this, but the ignition temperature for PVC
pipe is around 730° F. So, without having pictures to explain this to me, because we only get
to see a couple of the pictures of the crime scene, this tells me, and we know anybody that that has walked inside of a
home or building can can knows this, the PVZ pipe was probably located very close
to that shelf, that shelving unit. The shelving unit's set on fire and the the most intensive the most intense portion
of that fire is on that shelving unit that is melting the shelves themselves and then the the offshoots and cast of
that. The closest one would be the PVC pipe that then burst and shot water down there. Then the three victims are a
little bit further away than that. And then the fourth victim is even further away, but only four or five feet. I want
to make sure, too, that we talk about. So, let's talk guns and bullets here. All four victims had been shot in the
head with a 22 caliber gun. As we said previously, the gun that is pulled off of Maurice Pierce at the shopping mall
is later run through for ballistics twice, both times, comes up as not a match. There are complications
with the evidence which I I think could point you in any kind of different direction or it also could just make you
question everything. But let's also keep in mind Amy Ays was actually shot by a second gun. So all four victims shot
with a 22 caliber but the the one victim that's found further than the others was
shot with a second gun. So, a 22 caliber and a 380 pistol were both used to commit the murders. The condition of the
bullets. As regarding the condition of the bullets, firearms experts say many factors, including the intense heat of a
fire, could make it impossible to match a slug to a gun. One such expert quoted as saying, "In my experience, shots to
the head with a 22 bullet are going to distort a lot." That's all fair statements. Let's we can circle back to
that. As far as the 380 pistol goes, a shell casing was found at the scene. Where did they find that? In a drain.
So, either the the fire hose water or the PVC pipe water moved that shell casing to a drain. The gun itself was
never actually ever located. So, there's a good chance here that with this 22, you run the test twice and it doesn't
ever match up. and the 380 never being found that they've never found either murder weapon.
>> Right. >> Regarding the 380 pistol, this is where they flubbed up the investigation early
on. When I'm told that Forest is dropped off with the 22 and he goes down to the
creek to that's right behind the murder scene to hang out with the skin heads and then later tells his buddy that me
and some of the skin heads killed him and burned up the shop. You better be down there looking for that pistol and
that 22. The obvious place to discard them if you wanted to get rid of them quick would be in that creek. Now, if
you're not down there searching right away, well, you're up against it because I think it was 2 weeks later, this whole
area flooded that month, December of 1991, Austin, Texas. And this may not be true
to date, but it was true to the time periods in 1991 received more rain in that month than it
had ever than it ever in the history of that city. 14 inches of rain in that month is what I believe the reports
were, which is crazy.

The Yogurt Shop Murders /// Part 1 /// 866

Part 1 of 2

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This week we take a good solid look at a case that has weighed heavy on the hearts and minds of everyone in the Lone Star state’s capital city. The Austin Yogurt Shop Murders is one of most infamous cases in Texas history. Despite the efforts of the APD it remains unsolved. In 1991 four girls were killed at the I Can’t Believe it’s Yogurt near the Northcross mall. Victims - Amy Ayers (13), Eliza Thomas (17), Jennifer Harbison (17), and Sarah Harbison (15) were shot and killed in the shop’s backroom before the business was set on fire. Police had many leads, some that turned into arrests, and two accused were charged, convicted, and released. Just this month HBO released a four part documentary titled The Yogurt Shop Murders.

True Crime Garage’s previous coverage;

November 2021 - The Yogurt Shop Murders episodes 539 & 540

February 2017 - Austin Yogurt Shop Murders episodes 81 & 82

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the Yogurt Shop Murders and the HBO documentary, detailing the investigation and its impact on the Austin community.

Key points

The Yogurt Shop Murders. A chilling exploration of the 1991 murders of four teenage girls in Austin, Texas.
HBO's New Documentary. The new HBO docuseries delves into the complexities of the Yogurt Shop case.
The Search for Truth. Detective is not just closing the case but seeking real evidence. "Show me the evidence of that."
Confessions and Controversy. Detective Palanco's ability to extract confessions raises questions about their validity. "He could get a confession out of an innocent person."
Fire and Water. The investigation faced significant challenges due to the fire and water damage at the crime scene. "Your evidence can even run out the front door with the hose stream."
The Fire's Intensity. The fire was so hot it caused a PVC pipe to burst, flooding the scene.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This is when Austin truly lost its innocence forever.

5:15WatchAug 26, 2025

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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