The Mothers | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

uh I was working at BB T I was at work my husband called me and he said that there was a detective at
our house in Cary and that I needed to come home right away and I of course I started asking questions and
he said he couldn't answer anything that they needed to talk with me in person and I had the gut feeling that it was
one of my boys I didn't know which one but I felt that it was and I remember everything about going down the
escalator I remember who stopped me and spoke to me on the way out I didn't say anything to them because I just didn't
want to make it real that something was really wrong and and I remember the whole drive home
did you talk to anyone on that drive are you just alone on that drive I was alone
on the drive and I did not talk to anybody or call anybody and what happened when you showed up
the detective was there and my husband was there and they were in the living room
and I had a a purse a large purse that my son Stephen had given me on my arm and he said that he hated to tell me but
that um my son Stephen had passed away and I remember dropping my purse I remember it made a loud noise
and I've had to sit down I sat down on the couch and then the detective came and
sat down with me and started telling me how sorry he was foreign he was murdered on January the 26 2012
and he was murdered at six o'clock in the morning he was in a hotel room and the lady that came to clean the room
found him around 11. I didn't know until we did the medical examiners but he had been shot twice I
only knew from the death certificate that he'd been shot once in the shoulder um it was a robbery
and he resisted it and the fight broke out and he was shot um and then on the way out they shot him
again in the back so we believe he died at the scene fairly quickly how old was he 24.
it was a life changer I'm not the same person that I was then Curtis Hoyle is buried in the cemetery
at Enon Baptist Church in Oxford North Carolina this is his mother Freda McDonald
today on the show we're speaking with three mothers who are part of a group called parents of murdered children here
in Durham North Carolina Durham is a small town with a high homicide rate we followed this group
parents of murdered children for a long time hoping that they would speak with us one day
as you might imagine this is a private group of people and they felt mistreated by reporters in the past who knock on
their doors with cameras looking for a sound bite as we got to know them they explained
that it's not that they aren't willing to talk about their kids it's that people don't really listen
I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal [Music] he was a nerd he was really he was a nerd and he was
so smart that his teacher wanted to put him up a grade this is Jocelyn Sims she raised four boys on her own as a single
mother and she's telling us about her oldest son Rey but Ray like other kids hate to say it and get older
you know he got him a job got two jobs and then and both of them was way out not on the bus line so he bought him a
car was in went to sleep coming home off on the job and told the car and couldn't get another job he had no
way to get that work and by then he had some two kids by then of his own so he started selling drugs
do you remember when you found that out were you disappointed yes I was and everything but he said Mama
I gotta take care of my kids and I'm you know and I have to admit he wasn't these
kinds that you know you go out there and there's no they buying these fantasy cars and all this jewelry he helped me
with my bills took care of his kids took care of his girlfriend were you scared for him were you nervous
no to be honest I never was he would be on like this be his blogger and somebody
else have that block right across from him he didn't care everybody that I talked to in the area
where he did his stuff even old people said he was so respectful so if he they saw him if he saw them for bad cause
some he tried to help him take the stuff the house and said he wouldn't arguing nobody you know on the other coin and
stuff he did his thing with the homie took care of his his kids make sure they did the homework play games Wilson and
stuff like that Jocelyn says Rey was at her house constantly bringing over food or just spending time with her and
because she was the only parent Rey would wish her a happy Mother's Day and a Happy Father's Day every Father's day
he called me say Happy Father's Day Mom I love you you're the best he should tell me my mama no matter what we do as
grown-ups you did us that you raised us the best you could to raise four Sons by
yourself [Music] first 2005 Jocelyn got a phone call from Rey's girlfriend who told her that Rey
was hurt and she needed to get to the emergency room so I get to an emergency room
and I go to the desk and I tell the lady I say hello I just got a call about my son Ray Sims so she said just take a
seat right there I'll be right back she went through the two you know they had glass doors then she went through the
doors and came back and sat down at the desk and say nothing to me so I'm like that you know just waiting for somebody
to tell me something I happen to look and I saw these policemen through the doors and still nobody said nothing I'm
like what's going on you know they finally opened the door and they let me in and the doctor's standing there looking
at me policemen looking at me and I'm like where's my son at and they still not still knocking them off they just
looked at me like you know and I said where's my where's my son and a nurse came down and she um she knew Ray
because we always lived on the same area and she turned me around I'm so sorry to
raise dead this is what happened earlier that evening Ray was driving he was talking to a friend on the phone
when someone drove into him police believed that it was on purpose and and he told the girl on the phone he
said hold on me and he was at a stop sign so hoping that somebody just ran your back on me and he still had the
phone in his hand when he got out and she said she heard him say hey man y'all y'all hit my car and they said no you
hit me and he said how can I hit y'all when I'm at a stop sign y'all behind me and then all of a sudden she heard him
say oh [ __ ] and he must have tried to get back in the car and dropped his phone in the car
and it went off and they shot him and then um he was able to go he made a turn and he was
able to try maybe about two and a half blocks and his car crash what was the funeral like
full he was popular yes it was he yeah more women in there than me because he he had so many women that loved him
because even after he died a friend of his had a child and named her child after him and stuff but yes I mean it
was full you know family and friends so we had a cookout and celebrate his life we had black balloons
and when when balloon for release the balloons on one got caught in the tree and stayed there until it was over and
everybody started leaving all of a sudden that balloon just moved and went on and it made me feel like he was saying
that I'm still here Mom you know Jocelyn had so many people around her who loved her and wanted to help but she
says it didn't matter she still felt alone she found herself retreating stopped going out stopped seeing friends
all I wanted to do was talk about my son and then I felt like they didn't want to
hear that every time I came over so I just stopped coming you weren't branching out yeah I wasn't branching
out and they would call me sometimes you know say come on let's go out the gym we
haven't seen each other for a while and I said okay and the day that we spoke about the dinner I found myself
confident no I can't I don't want to go like I said when something like that happened your whole life change and
people look at you and they say well you got other kids you'll be all right they
don't understand it don't matter how many children you have I have four sons and I tell people
now I only got three-fourths of a heart because my other fourth is gone and no matter how many kids I got that can't be
refilled okay my name is Carrie Watkins so when I hit when I had daughters I said I'm
gonna name a daughter after me so I had four girls so I named um Carrie out to me and she was funny she loved it she
loved music she loves music she always liked to put her hand on the hip you know
she loves taking pictures so Cara Carol is very funny you know Kerry Watkins was murdered on Friday
July 18 2008 she was 23. she was shot in the chest in a drive-by shooting she was shot in the chest but hit her
hard so like I said I had to go down go to the hospital identify her body but when I went in there
first time you know I passed out then they got me back up then I lay with her in the bed and I you know and she had a
little bow and I took it off my hair and I still got that bro you know but that's
that's the worst thing that happened in my life you can pretty much expect every other week for someone in
little town of Durham North Carolina to be killed this is Marsha Owen she's organized
vigils and prayer meetings for victims of homicide and over the years has become close with Frida Carrie and
Jocelyn parents of murdered children has chapters all over the country it was started in 1978 by a couple who lost
their 19 year old daughter two months after their daughter's murder the mother contacted a priest who put
her in touch with three other parents whose children had been killed the couple invited the other parents to
come to their house so it started with five parents in a house in Cincinnati and spread around the country
it's a reality that should not be on every single level from every angle you can look at it it doesn't
it should not exist it's a reality that should never exist um it's it's it's it's it's it's it's
so unreasonable I'm interested in in when you meet a new mother a mother who's recently
lost a sudden to violence what the first thing we do when um she comes to the meeting
we sit there fire close by somebody's gonna be there beside her so they can hold their hand you know and we tell you
know if you don't want to say anything you don't have to say anything you know but if you want to be here for you
anytime you know we may talk about something else and then they may you know she may feel like she's ready to
talk and then we get quiet and we let them that's their moment we don't say well honey you need to feel this we
don't tell don't tell nobody how you need to feel what you need to say what you need to do it's up to them to say
what they want to say when they want to say it and how they want to say it because like I may say something that
somebody else who had a child murder disagree with and because I had something to say
something I just script I'm not concerned so you had no right to say that because I don't agree what is it
like talking to other mothers who've experienced violence like this are there common things that all of you yeah
that's common stuff like I said we all lost a child through violence but we may it may affect us different because like
we all are different ourselves but the one connection we do have is that our child was murdered so that
gives us a connection so where we can talk to each other and like we said we there for each other
I got one right now that when I'm down I call her just like that she called me we
talk on the phone just about every day there's a building and say hey that we I'm gonna go check on this stuff that's
what we did for we let each other know say look I don't care if it's two three or four o'clock in the morning you need
to call call me you want to cry on the phone you can call and you cry on the phone and stuff that's because I can cry
right along with you or I can just hold the phone while you cry whatever you want to do and that's what we do for
each other we need that because nobody else can no matter how much like I could be married no matter how
much I love my husband my kids or whoever that connection is not there they want us the way we were that's what
they're comfortable with they love us they want us to be okay and they want us to be as we always were the people that
we've met and and have been so happy to to get to know because they understand us they accept us for who we are now
there are so many things that most of us will never understand about losing a child to murder first off for many of
these mothers it's not just burying their child that they have to deal with they also have to deal with police and
courtrooms and finding out who was responsible which can take years Jocelyn and Carrie have never found out who shot
their children somebody can just be looking at you you know or looking that way and it looked like they're looking
at you and you think why they looking at me do they kill or are you the one that killed my son or do
you know who killed my son and that's why I go through you know every time somebody even look at me or whatever
or if I'm going in the store somewhere and I'll be looking I would say I wonder did he kill them and then I also think
about how many more people have he killed I wanted to address the court when it was the one that he knew Freda
does know who killed her son I wanted to say something to him and I wasn't really sure
what on Earth I could say but I I just winged it I didn't write anything down I just I just stood up and
addressed the court and I remember it very well and I would tell anybody if you have an impact statement please put
it together and please present it because you can't go back and do that so it it's important if you feel it all
like you want to that you go ahead and do it and I do remember saying that I wish that heaven had visited hours
that I would the thought of never being able to visit him again was overwhelming
and I wanted to leave the courtroom with something positive that just seemed really important to me at the time
and my son had written a really very short poem that I had found after he died when I was going through his
clothes and so I recited that to the offender and I've always been glad that I did
can I say that point please what's done is done what's here is now so make the best out of the worst and
strive to make the best better love Stephen Curtis Hoyle it's been quite a striking thing for the
courtroom to hear the judge walked out he had to take a minute did you look at the
man in the eyes as you were I did did he look back at you he cried have you written to him since or had any
contact no he he wrote me once I haven't been able to write back I've never been ready to do that and
it's been six years so it's very complicated yeah absolutely it's very complicated and I think
homicide opens the door to a lot of these kinds of struggles because I can't tell you how many times I've been asked
have you forgiven him and so it becomes about me making another decision in my heart my mind
and it's that's complicated very complicated [Music] over the course of our conversations
with Frida Kerry and Jocelyn there were certain things that came up again and again
that they all deal with all the time and that they're sick of for one we're all saying really dumb
things where you get all the keys or God meant for you for that to happen or God
knew what was best you know he wanted your son with him or and we even have a preacher uh creature
told me God Don't Make Mistakes he needed your son for something else like what or even you know they turn around and
say well oh he mostly did something I mean for him you know for them to shoot him you know what's the argue with them
whether he wasn't I mean just stupid stuff you know I think the idea that they a lot of
people start looking at the victim themselves and saying something about well what was he doing in that hotel
room trying to find a way for it not to be something that could happen in in their back door
and then main thing they want to do like you said the first thing they do is somebody's murder oh he had a record hit
and to make it seem like the victim asked for it because of the lifestyle like I tell people yeah my son was a
drug dealer he wasn't a killer and stuff but I mean you got people who rob banks just cause you rob a bank that
mean you're gonna you're gonna be bad the rest of your life you know and stuff I said don't judge somebody by their
record I wonder who when you meet new people and they ask if you have children I'm
always surprised that it everyone asks oh do you have children yes what do you say they're in heaven yeah I always say
you know sometimes I got both girls I still say I got four girls you include Kerry you also got four girls and then
if somebody say if I said she in heaven and and I always wear their names and I have their pictures on in a locket and
so I I say well this is Stephen and Michael and so I try to take out the uncomfortable part of it because I
always recognize that I make the other person uncomfortable a burden that you don't want to put on
anyone else no absolutely don't you makes them very uncomfortable what do you want us
to know those who might be scared to meet someone who lost a child how do you wish we spoke about it or handled it
remember them say in their name is it's always in our mind we're always thinking
about them if it's their birthday if it's the anniversary of their death if it's when they would have just turned 30
it doesn't matter what the situation is to to see that person and not acknowledge that person that was with
them for in my case 24 years that impacted their life the best gift I ever had was my children and and not to say
you know I think about you and I remember the time that you and Steven and I went down to the lake
to to not talk about that anymore it's like stripping you of the most precious thing which is your memories
[Music] I can see Ray sometime somebody can be dressed just like him at a distance and I still will come up and
yell out Ray and the only shoes he did wear was Timberlands he didn't I don't care what
kind of how hard it was he ain't putting nothing on his feet but Timberland he did not wear sneakers or
any other kind of shoe even at his brother's wedding he wanted to wear Timberlands and I had to force no you're
gonna wear some regular shoes for your brother's wedding but my brother said I can wear them I can get some black ones
he ain't getting no black team he's gonna wear regular shoes and stuff and I was just glad that he lived to be in his
brother's wedding you know because it's his baby brother had gotten married and he was so proud of him and stuff you
know Carol was funny and slowly get in the mirror when she put on her clothes you
know because she she was she a pretty girl and she would put up put on her clothes and she put her hand on her hip
so I said you got it girl you know so I got a lot of man Robert said well she was funny you know you could be sad
about going through she'll make you laugh Stephen was uh he was very compassionate he really
loved his friends he loved me I don't know that anybody has ever loved me the way Steven has
[Music] [Music] criminal is produced by Lauren Spore Nadia Wilson and me audio mix by Rob
buyers our intern is matild erfelino Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of
Criminal you can see them at thisiscriminal.com special thanks to documentary photographer Justin Cook we've got his
photographs of Jocelyn Carrie and Frida on our website criminal is recorded in the studios of
North Carolina public radio wunc we're a proud member of radiotopia from PRX a collection of the best podcasts around
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[Music] from PRX

There is a group in Durham, NC, called “Parents of Murdered Children.” This week, we meet three of its members.

Photojournalist Justin Cook has spent ten years documenting the impact of homicide in Durham, North Carolina. You can see more of his work here.

Music in the episode “Intermezzo” by Blue Dot Sessions “La Costilla” by Blue Dot Sessions “Petaluma” by Blue Dot Sessions “Slow Toe” by Blue Dot Sessions “This Our Home” by Blue Dot Sessions

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode transcripts are posted on our website https://thisiscriminal.com/.

Episode 83 originally published 1/26/2018 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-83-the-mothers-01-26-2018

Brief Summary

Three mothers share their painful stories of losing sons to violence in Durham, North Carolina, highlighting grief and the need for support.

Key points

A Mother's Grief. A mother recounts the moment she learned of her son's murder.
The Impact of Violence. Mothers discuss the ongoing pain of losing a child to violence.
Finding Connection. Mothers share their bond through shared loss and understanding.
A Love Like No Other. Reflecting on deep love, one says, 'I don't know that anybody has ever loved me the way Steven has.'
The Talking Band-Aid. A humorous encounter unfolds with a talking Band-Aid, leading to a quirky conversation.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I only got three-fourths of a heart because my other fourth is gone.

A mother reflecting on the loss of her son.

9:18WatchJan 6, 2023

Tension

70/ 100High tension

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