The Miramar Murders EP4 | The Witnesses | Forensic Files

my father meant a great deal to me I dream about what it would be like to have him around today I went to my first
prom this year and you needed and needed my dad to be there I celebrated my 16th
birthday recently and was very upset because he couldn't be here all I want to know is why I know what my father was
like and I'm aware of the actions that took place in the murder I will do the right thing and keep working towards
mine and my father's dreams which were to go to college and open my own [Music] business I like just shut that part of
my life you know like I didn't cry I just shut everything shut down I don't know it's it's something that I'm
dealing with in life working on learning feelings or expressing feelings or knowing what you're feeling
I [Music] guess I want him to kind of choose to it's so hard like we've been married so long but
it's funny because I don't know exactly what does he really like and then I was thinking oh I'm going to get all these
things but at the same time I felt like I wanted him to have a choice he's been so many times told what to wear what to
put on I just you know bought a a shirt with a pair of jeans considering the fact he has not had any clothes for the
last 20s something years though I wanted him to be able to decide what he wanted
to wear well you know it's funny cuz the PA and I were saying oh who would sleep
on what side and um you know I told him I'll probably sleep on the left side because that's what I'm used to sleeping
on when something great happens what do you do but have a bottle of champagne everybody toast um you know to him being
home so I hear people comeing to work and talk about their spouses oh they're driving me crazy I can't stand him you
know and I'm thinking oh my God what I would give to have paavo home what I would give to have him annoying me or I
had to wash his clothes cuz he doesn't want to wash it I would give everything to have that
everything in the end it's about him being free and them knowing he is innocent everyone is suffering but I
don't I don't feel that bad really because they are suffering but her she she put herself there you you know and
and she stayed there I don't know and he let her stay knowing that he was guilty I
[Music] mean I can't speak for any of their side I don't I have a totally different outlook
on things than I think they do but it's it's clearly him they want to say the video is grainy
black and white whatever but DNA doesn't lie DNA doesn't lie is there any trial footage you know
video from past trials available to show how exhibits were handled when they were
moved into evidence how they were handled when Chuck is waving them around as we he's known to do yeah I think we
have to look for pictures and video of the evidence being handled in this case there may be circumstances where you
actually see exhibits being passed down Council table to Pablo and then passed back and then and you've got all of you
know all of those documented so we're not talking hypothetically we're and this is what
happened real organiz it's been open so much it's been open so much here he goes no gloves you
want gloves wait did he just ask him if he wants gloves she doesn't to say isn't
it possible that with the gloves he puts it on the floor the most contaminated surface in a
room people think that that evidence is held like in a freaking scientific Vault
and stuff and if they see this they'll be like that's how they handled it but it needs to get in front of a jury I
mean that's the [Music] idea the DNA is going to be the issue that Pablo has the most trouble
answering you can already see that their strategy is that the T-shirt was contaminated it's not easy to
contaminate something with DNA they're going to make it seem a lot easier than it really is and it doesn't mean it's
impossible doesn't mean that nobody makes mistakes we're going to continue with um
Mr sukalo thank you good afternoon good afternoon Mr suomo if you have familiarity with DNA
yes talk about the transfer of DNA yes yes we know that DNA can come and commonly referred to as touch DNA yes I
touch my laptop and the common phrase we use is touch DNA is the transfer of my skin cells to the laptop correct and
that type of DNA um is easily transferred from one object to another directly correct I shook hands with Mr
ebar this morning that hand toand contact could transfer his DNA to my hand it could yes
then I touched the photographs now whatever was on my hand could end up on the photograph
potentially that's secondary transfer correct correct then Mr Morton touches a photograph whatever was on that
photograph can end up on his hand potentially yes and then Mr Mor touches an object whatever was on his hand end
up on that object correct and these are phenomenon that are well known to crime investigators
correct it's the principles of crime scene the principles of crime scene now we talked about the FL box next to the
victim on the floor there could be fingerprint evidence on this at that time yes and there could be
DNA of it in on this possibly and was this in fact the sealed container that you use when you collected the Black Box
correct now when we were in court yesterday yesterday and Mr Morton handed you the bag it was open correct and did
you also see Mr Morton when he took the bag he took the box out and examined it for a second while he was standing by
Council table correct and then he handed it to his Co counsil and she examined it
correct and then it was brought over to you and what did you get I put on gloves
and what does that do two keeps me from transferring my DNA to that particular item or anything that you touch
correct so really the use of gloves it's pointless because at this point now Mr Morton has contaminated this piece of
evidence somebody has prior to this yes but it's continued so again if I touch Mr E bar and then I touched the photos
that Mr Morton was going through yesterday and then Mr Morton touched the photos and then he touched the Box this
is now not a reliable piece of physical evidence cuz it's been contaminated potentially potentially for further
examination I no further questions thank you honor the black box was irrelevant it
was another red herring uh if there was no contamination because I had never touched anything that belonging to Pablo
ebar the only thing that would have happened to that black box and I'm sure that you understood it is that my DNA
and my prints would have been added to it but I was not on trial the Black Box the way it was
handled by Chuck in the courtroom may have opened the door to that video mhm now that we've had two instances in the
courtroom of somebody handling physical evidence that was in the custody of the clerk's office and then the state
improperly we can try at some point and I don't know how we get it in or who we get it
in through Chuck is also unaware of the chain of custody yeah yeah his own chain
of custody you follow the chain of custody from the time it was first put in as evidence at the trial and then every
time it's been moved or um examined again could somebody have not been wearing gloves could somebody have not
taken proper precautions putting in and out of the bag you'd have to go each and
every step to see the chain of custody of that evidence and that's not easy uh judge there's the other video
that I provided to the state um I imagine they have an objection to it do you intend to introduce it this morning
I do okay I do so okay address it now what it is is it's a video of Mr Morin is interviewed um and the portion that I
intend to introduce and it shows Mr more what I think is the state attorney's office going through and displaying
exhibits it clearly exhibits that were entered into evidence that we've seen here in this in this trial um to the
camera crew and includes Mr Morton not wearing gloves um the same way we've seen Mr and others handling
evidence in this courtroom what's your what's your argument on the on on the request I'm holding this is the shoot
this is not SE he's saying this is mishandling evidence your question issue is has the evidence been tampered with
in any form or fashion to make it relevant I'm holding it now this all right has the shoe been tampered with at
all not at all is that mishandling one way or the other does it does it establish in some form of fashion that
evidence was transferred particularly DNA uh which is which has nothing to do with this shoe right here to the shirt
that was at that crime scene that has no relevance at all so what what's your objection
okay he find it's relevant okay thank you Jud all right bring in the jury jury's
entering have you seen it yet did you watch it with the uh defense attorney you don't watch
it go nah that's all right for you yeah M this is it one with a unique basketball player on it you see there's
the hands these are the ones that were taken from the um his friend these were removed
from him all right please leave your notes inside the envelopes leave your envelopes on the chair do not discuss
the case in any way shape or form or do any impedant investigation we'll see you
Monday morning at 9:30 thank you that was a totally unfair presentation of the video edited
doctored uh and trying to create a a false scenario of tainting physical evidence that was really not relevant uh
to the case the way it was presented it was indeed uh uh tried to it was presented as a personal attack but
retaliate and try to uh make personal attacks on on any opposing Council no matter what he or she tries to do to
me c I think I cried you didn't amazing job an amazing job thank you thank you yes we're having
lunch tomorrow I didn't realize Joe was as good as he is yeah Joe was unbelievable Joe Knows DNA better than
anybody I've ever seen that's practicing law right now and he did a phenomenal job and as you know Joe was
[Music] brilliant I know that people can only make decisions with the information they are
given right cuz that's how our system is based I feel that way about Spain there
there's a lot of things that they don't know so they're they're being purposefully misled the only thing I can
say is that if if you're watching this and you've been one of those people whove bought into the narrative that the
United States wrongly picked up Pablo ibar because he was Latino and that there's no evidence against him you need
to get real familiar with the facts of this case because if you don't know know the
facts of the case you would really believe that we have the wrong guy and we don't I was really
scared at first I got to admit I was just scared I didn't want to dentify him I didn't but I knew who it was cuz I you
know I there was the guy you know I mean I would have never been able just right
afterwards they gave me 10 pictures and I said boom that guy you know I mean I'm
he was a [Music] guy Fred you and I should do this together what that's me sit down with
Pablo and and just go through this trial with him because no one knows it better
than him there are subtleties here every time I talk to him and I think I've learned a witness or I think I've
learned something I learn something new when I start talking to him about it hopefully you you guys start breaking up
Witnesses deciding who's going to handle who so you go sit down with with Pablo and say okay I'm handling I don't go see
clients I got to go see this guy that kills me that's my point I can't work in the jail I don't hear well there I'm
going to go I don't need anybody else I mean we don't need the whole team for that I'm going to sit there and we'll do
it again later but I'm going to work up Foy for whoever whoever's doing it'll all be organized it'll be nice every
thought that Pablo has had for 22 years about Foy will be considered it was going to be me and Allan Al and I
thought he would live a little longer than he did I was very surprised to hear he passed but you know cancer does that
it it was sad I really felt bad because he's such a good lawyer and we lost him on this case
Allen's knowledge of the case equal only Pablos and Allan put everything together
for me he was just a genius at that so he's a huge loss to this case I have read every single
transcript of all the trials I've already know the facts inside out I've got to put them in a
place where I want them because with Allen dying I've got to be prepared to do everything everything I'm more
familiar with the case than anybody good morning Mr Foy good morning so let's talk about then what you saw
getting in my van I was pulling out and I was going up the street and I was looking ahead of me and I saw two guys
getting in the car in front of Mr Casey's house um describe how he appeared to you that day
through those periods that you were able to observe it youngest white male black hair short crew cut like a marine
cut scruffy face looking did you identify any of the photographs on July 15th in what's label
as lineup a which is now 6 yes I did um they're number one two and three at the top photos and then photos four five and
six at the bottom was one and five you picked one and five you pick two photos yeah
generally what police do is that they select people who look remotely like the suspect rather than select people who
match the description Foyd tells the police the passenger had a scruffy face two people in the lineup have scruffy
faces the other four people don't if Foy doesn't consider the other four people functionally there are not six
people in the lineup and as it turns out Foy says well I'm not sure if it's one photograph or or the other photograph
but the two photographs that he identifies both have scruffy faces you can't be very confident and say it's one
of these two people you recognize uh that photo yes I do and is that a photo of the live lineup that
you asked to attend yes that was yep and then did you pick out any individual in
that lineup number four you particularly told the police number one and number five were
persons that might have committed a murder yeah and then when you went to had live lineup isn't it true the only
person there was number five the scruffy face person that you saw in the first photo
lineup well he was there yeah was number one there no I don't recall that but what I did recall was number five was
there and he wasn't scruffy anymore when Mr Floyd did the live lineup identification you know lo and
behold picture that we had of Mr iar he's got the same haircut he's got the same mustache lo and behold the day you
know the day of the live lineup where you bring Foy in Mr iar changes his appearance is that a
coincidence the only person in the live lineup that he saw in the photo array was Pablo so how do we know that what he
really did was choose the person that he saw the M of the murders or is what really happened is he choose chose the
person that he saw in the photo array and that's that's the question and we think that the answer is
clear all right you ever testify differently I don't know maybe could have been all right it's been a lot of
years a lot of years and several testimonies and and what are you saying you change your testimony every time no
I just don't know I ask you if you ever testified different yes or no do you recall no I don't recall you you've got
the testimony let me see what I said maybe I testify maybe I did it it's been too many years I don't know maybe
I've testified so many times I understand that we'll get to that a little bit Yeah there people's memories
change over time and also Gary foy's memory changed about what he thought he told the police so sometimes he said he
thought he told the police one one thing and other times he thought he had told the police something else I I don't
think he was lying but memory is not a perfect machine so I'm not surprised to see that his memory changed over
time yeah he has to do cuz benel swears that he would never show up yeah we got to take a break yeah explain
it to him Che yes can I have 3 minutes abely let's take 10 ask him for 10 H ask him for 10 what let's take 10 J can we
take 10 cuz I they want to go over a couple things ladies and Gentlemen let's have you step back in the Jury Room for
a couple minutes please leave your old pads on your [Music] chair so if people select somebody from a
lineup because this person looks familiar but he looks familiar because you've seen this person's photograph
before that's a problem that that increases the likelihood of identifying that person even if that's not the
criminal I think it's clear they Tim me showed you some photographs right that was on a flyer am I correct yes they
should here's where here's where you get him before he does the photo lineup right so he says they show me they were
blurry they they wearing hats they weren't looking they were looking down looking down wearing a
hat but how do we know and then he says ultimately you to ultimately you asked to do a live
lineup yes before that they showed me 10 mugs the 10 mugs are separate from the blurry frows with the hats that doesn't
mean that he saw this that's we're going to going to bite Us in the ass we're going to
get where's the other where's the other black and white sketch it's in the file it's right there where's where's the
quote there it's it's page 19 and 20 I can't be that it's only 12 Pages it's probably number four but he
says in he says in his testimony somewhere that they go how some Pap does it help right now does that help what
help I'd say number four I mean there's nothing it's no more clear he picked number four I like Pablo he knows
everything about the case he knows every bit of the testimony he knows everything
that I understand how it is he's anxious he's nervous PE anybody would be but uh
I'm going to do it the way I think it's best to do it we can't switch up right know we
has if he claims an illness yeah we could switch on I'll do it if you want huh okay yeah they're going to be
direct anyway but he didn't knowbody he's brought out the facts of I don't want it
coming out what he worried about you know we I think we would need a little more than just that Fred's been
on the case for years and he's been preparing for that cross what happened what happened to all your transcripts
you just walked up there with him did you bring the wrong ones he doesn't know if he saw the fire before after just do
the way he says it he sees something blurry when Fred was 50 he was like the best at that sharp I mean you'd watch
him and just go wow that was fantastic he knows everything it's hard to tell this is not
easy stuff I mean Fred is getting [Music] old is Fred going to keep going or are
you guys switching or something there's no switching you can't switch there one lawyer one wit but if anybody can do it
it's in I can't find it in my whenever you're ready judge I bring in the [Music]
jury Joe Fred totally bodged Foy I mean he doesn't have any of the transcript straight I mean how do you how do you
come in here at at the moment of truth and he he don't know what the transcripts say it is it is it is what
it is but I'm just saying he didn't get that we we know we miss some points the jury has no idea all right before you
were shown that photographic lineup were you shown shown a flyer not to my reconnection let me show you your
testimony who is this from That's from the grand jury they never showed me a flyer okay so your testimony here is
incorrect that they showed you a flyer at some point can I see that it never says they showed me a
flyer all right they showed did that was on a flyer am I correct that no no let's
read up here let's read okay I tried to make a composite they didn't really have
a lot they didn't have anything ultimately they showed you some photographs right that was on a flyer am
I correct that was Mr Morton asking you do you remember seeing that yes they showed me something and I said well I
know you it could be I didn't really know very blurry and they all looked like they were wearing hats would that
be what they showed you yeah something like that I guess I don't know okay all right that was before you
saw the photo lineup right and then again this is the document I just show you correct yeah can you show that
to the jury not yet not yet no cuz you can't tell anything judge I you can't tell anything out of this it's so blurry
excuse me don't try that again what you don't show anything to the jury the attorney's handle
that all right yes sir any further questions on Cross Fred is a very successful very
good trial lawyer his methods are unique Fred is not somebody who's going to write out a cross-examination
Fred doesn't want to hear from the client he's not going to sit there and tell you this is what I'm going to say
he's not going to go through the cross examination Point by point he doesn't do that he hasn't done it for 45 years he's
not going to start now we're the lawyers you know this is our case and I like Pablo but you I'm not having
somebody tell me what to do I've been doing this forever and uh I'll listen to him but
you know when you have 50 family members sitting around telling you what to do it's
difficult I feel like sometimes I don't know if Fred really wants to be in this because he has told us he's read
everything which frankly I don't believe what have you really done you you read and I know it's a lot to read but is
that worth everything we've paid you I don't think so we didn't pay you just to read we would be
stupid I don't know if he's angry or he's mad does he want more money and that's what makes him feel this way I
don't know how do I know he doesn't get upset and then goes to say something to the state because he's pissed up you
know what I'm saying to give our tactic or because I don't know he just doesn't seem happy right now
to be honest in the end if worse comes to worse we're really going to have to rely on Joe and Benji that is my only
saving grace I don't know I just do a lot of praying a lot of praying Pablo I'm going to put you on
speaker phone is that okay PB Benji's here and I'm on my house phone so he can hear I don't care about who had a better
career who career started who hasn't done that what I care about is winning this cage and the Fred had that today is
not a person that I look at and say to myself you're the best attorney in the room I don't know what he used to be
before but the one that that I've had in this Tri I'm not impressed but I would I
wouldn't I can imagine how he won all these cases and he had this career he had because what he's done in my Cas has
not been has not been up to my standards let alone maybe an attorney standards and I'm worried I'm worried that he's
telling me he's going to do this he's telling me he's going to do that I I I went over things with him and then when
he gets up there he just goes again and does his own ad live ad live and then we
we don't get a whole bunch of stuff and I am very worried about that I care about showing the jury explaining to the
jury in detail why you should find me not guilty so you have a decision to make I don't know I don't I
don't with Fred I don't know man they didn't get the cross-examination they expected from
Manzel and Foy so we see this breakdown that the confidence that either Pablo or
the family have in Fred that was the I probably the only time or first time in his career where
someone said you're not getting up I got a text message that Tanya decided Jo was going to do cleto I said hey you
guys brought me that up with you normally I would I would have fought with them all but I'm not going to sit
there and get into a fight with with you know my own client and the others if I have to do it I will but uh Joe's going
to cross-examine him so that's where it [Music] is [Music] white male white shirt with a white H
over his head back I was three more shots1 751 the Miami day home invasion is one
thing that's probably the most unknown fact about this case that most people don't know about that no the jury can't
know that that's prejudicial they had not a clue that the person who was standing before them
Pablo iar was sitting in a Miami date jail for a home invasion 2 weeks after he killed my sister the jury was never
told that and they can't be told that I don't know how somebody commits a crime like that and
then a few weeks later goes and does almost the same exact thing like we don't know if the cops didn't come if
those people would have lived he just got caught that time and who knows how many times he did it
before not getting caught if you're thinking about it it in a trial for the for the Miramar
murders they shouldn't be able to bring in any other bad acts that Pablo may have done cuz that doesn't prove whether
or not he did this crime right you don't want the jury to assume well because you
did one other home invasion you must have done this one there's one uh positive invocational
uh shoe print of was a property of Francisco R and could have been the footboard that made the impression his
other buddy his other roommate was wearing these and then his second roommate was wearing these these are the
ones that were taken from ringcom his friend when they were arrested in Miami during the course of
the robbery these were removed from him during the other robery if you look at a picture of
Francisco ranone from 1994 look like the guy in the video he also looks like it it could be him and that could explain
some other things the weak weak weak week weak sample that they say matches Pablo on that blue t-shirt so maybe the
contamination doesn't happen in the lab it happens in the Lee Street house maybe
the murderers are people who hang out at the Lee Street house but not Pablo but they never bothered to investigate it
was actually the uh defense in Seth pen Al's case that uh ring con was the the other person at the scene his lawyer
Hillyard maldol argued that the person in the Hat in the sunglasses was Ren KH con not p
and the shoe prints matched that guy's wearing the shoes from the murder how did we not convict that how
do we not bring that guy in the cops were n doesn't look like him what do they know that guy's wearing the
shoes from the murder a [Music] crazy [Music] State your full name spelling your whole
name for the record my name is Francisco [Music] Alon uh I want to talk about uh your relationship with Mr ebar
and how it developed once you met him you said that was in what year did you meet him in
93 and how did your relationship develop with from 199 mostly uh parties and went
to parties and clubs together was Casey Nickelodeon one of those clubs it was are you familiar with a home or a
house I'm just going to record to as the Le Street house yes sir it's a party house every night there
was girls in that house and a different group of guys but the main group was Pablo E bar uh Seth penol Francisco Ren
con for short and Jee clco imagine a group of four or five 20-some year old guys they're not married they don't have
kids you know they're not really working full-time jobs so they're hanging out smoking some weed drinking alcohol going
out to the bars and nightclubs at night working girls home that's it night after
after night after night if he's going to handle the evidence to his gloves on the table okay
I'm not going to take it out of the bag um just want to to show the bottom the shoes that appears to have a
basketball player on it see those shoes yes okay do you know if you've ever had those shoes on I probably have I
probably did where did you get those shoes those shoes I didn't I the shoes weren't mine I I never bought them shoes
uh we used to we used to wear clothes we to change each other's clothes uh before
we went out so I probably bought them shoes from APO I'm not sure who whose shoes they
were did other people wear each other's clothing in that house during that time yes
sir would that include shoes also everything [Music] yes the tend to prove that Pao Community
crime it tends to prove that ring Community crime bad though of course it is it is potentially difficult evidence
for us though because if you think about it there's no reason for any evidence in
the Le Street house to match up with the crime [Music] scene take a look at this portion of the video from stat
exhibit I see the person that's uh in front there walking out shirt see that sir I
do is that you sir that's not me they were Pablo was upset cuz R con came and he said that he didn't commit
the murders of course you know that was the stupidest question I've ever heard asked of a witness did you is that you
in the video committing the murders no of course not it ring con's testimony was horrible for
the defense R con came in as a good friend of Pablo's uh and put the shoes on Pablo's feet uh our defense was going
to be yeah the shoes match but they're not Pablo's shoes they're RN cones RN con looks like the guy in the
video Ren con lives in a Lee Street house where there was a tech 9 he's the alternate
suspect so Mr ringcon did you have anything to do with the deaths Academy of Sakari Sharon
Anderson re Rogers any of those three people killed in Mr sar's home no sir were you there involved present no sir
any way did you help out a plan in any way no way I don't have any further questions
thank you cross examination I don't think you what are you saying saying don't ask
him anything I can't hear you don't ask him anything I'm thinking maybe why because all he can do is hurt us he
didn't hurt us at all right and there you okay with that Pablo's not okay with that you go ahead what we can ask
him PA of sh whatever you ask him is going to hurt you he didn't identify I why want to ask is that I
no Jesus Christ he identify he's he told me for real boo this is no questions you
heard H it's too dangerous what do you think he's going to say cross examination we have no
questions if you would let Mr rone know that that we may recall him uh in our case but we have no questions at this
time Pablo gets very caught up he believes that people are going to do what in his mind is the right thing so
if we stand up and ask ring con is that Pablo in the video Pablo knows Ren con is going to say no but we don't know
that we know he probably for self-preservation is going to say yeah that's Pablo in the
video right so he want us to cross-examine R con there was nothing to gain from asking him questions it would
only have gotten worse because we're sure the prosecutors told Rin con that we were going to blame him for the
murders so he was there to help himself did you want to talk to him yeah go ahead no I want I want to talk to him
alone would do you want to talk I'm to Pablo's lawyer just going to ask you what your phone number was so I could
call you and talk to you on the phone number anything you you need to stay here for a
few minutes because I'm going to tell the judge what Mr Morton's doing right now Mr Sinclair man want to take that
exhibit down judge before you leave I I I got a small issue on the yeah we need it on
the record let's have Mr ringcon come in please morning Mr ringcon want you to grab the witness stand again please I
apologize for bringing you back in you're still under roath Mr Ron okay Mr KCK uh sure Mr R con uh I followed
you out as you were walking out so I could get your phone number so that we could call and talk to you later on the
defense team on Mr iar's team uh you understand that correct uh you refuse to do that explain to the court why you
refus to speak to me I don't refuse I just want I want Mr Chuck to be pres okay do you believe that he represents
you somehow no but I just rather have him you have some kind of deal or agreement with Mr Morton I do not uh so
basically you're saying you refuse to talk to any defense attorneys on the case unless Mr Morton personally is
present with you correct correct correct okay how many times have you talked to Mr Morton about the case today and so
you just showed up and you had a meeting with him this morning correct all right
uh did he assure you that you're not going to be charged with anything in the case no he did not uh did he tell you
that you're just a witness in the case you told me I was a witness yes okay uh if you were informed by the judge now
that uh both sides have the right to talk to you anytime that they want that there is no requirement that Mr Morton
be present with you that that's not true uh would you be able to understand and follow that instruction from the court
first of all did anybody ever say that that that I had to be present no you did I tell you that it's your choice if you
wanted yes choose to speak to anybody you want to defense and and and after he said that and refused to walk away
that's when you refused to speak to me correct correct okay no further questions all right thank you Mr record
I appreciate it accept that I let the ref record reflect that the witness walked outside with Mr Morton he's not
present uh he's again giving him more instructions but there is no requirement that he be present uh in any contact
that I have with this person I have the same access as the prosecutor's office and you can see that I'm being
restricted my understanding is he's not refusing contact with you he's refusing to talk to any member of the defense
team without the State president why does he need the protection of Mr Morton personally on this case what has he been
told uh this this is I I would submit this is misconduct I think this is the way they handle all their Witness I
think all of their Witnesses are told not to cooperate with the defense uh the court knows that this is this is illegal
it's a bad I don't find any evidence of them instructing the witness in any way that's
inappropriate the witness is saying I don't want to talk to the defense without the state there so what was the
problem then of my walking up and asking for the guy's phone number why was I not
allowed to do that by Mr Morton why did he interrupt my sentence and tell the witness you don't have to speak to
anybody unless a member of the process unless I am present with you are you asking me to do anything at this point
yes I'm I'm moving for administra at this point in the trial the mode for mist trial is
[Music] [Music] denied we had no idea where ringen was coming no idea I was a surprise
we were told through third parties from the ebar family that BR coh's not helping the
prosecution um so we stayed away from them there was no obstruction at all the judge found that there was no
obstruction a witness is entitled to talk to anybody he wants to and in fact that was my instruction to him you want
to talk to Mr culich uh fine anytime you want to just remember you have the right
to have uh the state attorney present during those conversations if you want to so at no time did I ever say do not
talk to Kevin KCK I can't explain to the witness his or her rights that's what I
did explained his rights to him he understood apparently Mr K didn't like it Chuck is uh still a very very tough
competitor he plays to win uh in past trials with Chuck I would say that uh if I had a weak judge a judge who didn't
really know the law that well uh chuck would affirmatively move in and stop the judge from making a mistake when he knew
it was going to be reversible error Chuck actually did that a couple of times today you know Pablo was shocked that
his friend Francisco Ren con flipped on him and I think what he forgets is that people always care about themselves
first right no matter what relationship you think you have with somebody their relationship with themselves is always
much more important so when Ren con believe they have something to gain to help themselves they're going to change
their testimony don't let the jury no judge I don't see that you know it had any
effect on us it's just just BS just full of crap they're always going to present
stuff that hurts us I mean you've been there you've done on us and everybody gets down about it what you do you know
you don't get down about it you just fight back think we're losing right now huh ask me after
clco were you sure right away that that was Pablo on that tape yeah someone you hang out with you know what I'm saying
you see them on tape shocking the history of of Pablo and Jee k is they were friends clco gets out of
prison Pablo takes him in lets him live in the Lee Street house and he finds out
kesco is stealing from me and kesco was taking drugs at the time and you know he
was in a in a rough time so he kicked him out of the house my name is from T SS i e r have
you ever been known by uh another last name yes clco while growing up did you ever come to
know a person by the name of Pablo ibah yes do you see Mr iar in the courtroom today yes I do would you point him out
and describe what he's wearing for us pleas uh he's wearing a blue suit okay what was your relationship
with him at that time like I said at first we were just acquaintances and then we became friends
eventually we became very close did you live with Mr eard in any time well he let me uh he let me sleep
on his couch there for for a couple of a week or 10 days do you recognize uh this style of
gun this one what do you recognize that to be what kind of gun tech 9 you ever handled handled a
gun like that before yes when and where at Pablo's house on Lee Street when you live with yes did you have any
information that may be relevant to this case yes tell us basically then what do you
know um that morning uh the Sunday morning they came in in the middle of the night
close to the morning Pablo went into the into his bedroom and he came out asking where was the tech uh where was
the tech it's normally under the under his bed in the case but I had it that evening uh you've never said this before
have you no you've testified in many proceedings PRI proceedings or several PRI proceedings to this correct yes this
is the first time you sang that yeah why I really just didn't want to be that close to
a murder I didn't really thought maybe I somehow I could be implicated for holding a murder
weapon you know very shortly before uh this happened U so continue you said uh fa ebar as you where was the
gun how did you respond I said I've got it I had it on me and uh he's demanded to have it which
I gave it to him and uh then they left they who is that Pablo and Seth left with the tech
9 what is he standing there at 5: in the morning holding the tech 9 in his hands
and then he hands it over them that's what his testimony was and it's just it's unbelievable and so you have to say
how does that just come forward 24 years later for the first time when we know that the state had access to him and we
don't know what that's about what what happens in those conversations and and I'm not I'm not saying that anything
unted or improper went on but why does he do that today why is it changing and I think I think he was shown to be a
liar in the past he was shown to have lied at the trial and I think for him once a liar always a liar
[Music] uh 125 this is the video so taking a look at this video where I've stopped this
video at 4.07 you recognize the person in that video yes you point to it and describe
who that person is that's Pablo Pablo ebar yes the same man you've identified here in the courtroom today
yes sh [Music] my [Music] [Music]

The prosecution’s witnesses put the defense against the ropes, while the defense team fights for Pablo’s life. Pablo Ibar was arrested on a charge of triple homicide - but his guilt comes into question when investigators discover video footage of the massacre. The heinous crime becomes the first murder case ever to be caught on camera, and Pablo's story hits the mainstream. This captivating docu-series recounts the harrowing investigation and trials that followed.

Brief Summary

Pablo Ibar reflects on loss and the complexities of his murder trial, focusing on DNA evidence and witness reliability.

Key points

A Father's Absence. A young person reflects on missing their father during significant life events.
The Weight of Evidence. Discussion on the handling of DNA evidence and its implications in court.
Fear of Identification. A witness shares their fear and certainty in identifying a suspect.
Fred's Commitment Questioned. Concerns arise about Fred's dedication to the case, leaving the client anxious.
Doubts About Legal Strategy. The client expresses frustration over the attorney's lack of preparation.
Self-Preservation in Testimony. A witness's shift in loyalty raises questions about relationships and truth.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

DNA doesn’t lie.

Emphasizing the reliability of DNA evidence in a trial.

3:39WatchFeb 14, 2024

Tension

75/ 100High tension

More from True Crime Files

Solve the Crime

Read a real case one clue at a time, then see how your call held up against the investigators.