The Devil Did It /// Part 2 /// 127 | Forensic Files

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
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Instagram, all that stuff you can find us at True Crime Garage. All right, that's enough of the business. Everybody
gather around, grab a chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. The murder of Father Alfred Koons, he
was killed in his church back in 1998. There has been some argument recently, Captain, if this is a cold case or if
it's a case that there's still plenty of leads depending on which investigator or
journalist you talk to, you're going to get both sides of the argument that it's
either a cold case or there's there's plenty of fuel there keeping this investigation going.
Well, yeah, I'm not going to listen to the journalist, I'm going to listen to the detective. Mhm. And the detective
said at least I think this last year, within the last year, he said it's not cold cuz it's not
sitting on some shelf somewhere. There's still a unit that is assigned to this investigation. Right. And but but I did
say depending on which investigator detective you speak with because there have been some detectives along the way
that said, you know what? I don't think that we're ever going to see this thing solved. I don't think we're ever going
to see a conviction here. And but you're right, as more recently there seems to be some
detectives involved that believe that we could see this thing work itself out. They might be waiting for a little luck,
they might be waiting for the right clue or possibly, you know, a confession. Sometimes these confessions
can happen as the years go by. so where we're at before was the theories. And the the first theory
primarily was was this some kind of satanic killing. Mhm. And again, my theories on that
I I for me, I think they would be they'd leave some signature. Now, his friend that was a priest, uh what
was his name? Fiori or Martin? Martin. Martin is the one that brought up the fact that well, there's possibly
some satanic cult within the church. And I think if he was killed by one of them to
shut him up for what he was saying on his radio show, I don't think there would be some kind of signature mark
left. We don't know if there was or wasn't because this again, a lot of this investigation has been
closed, you know, close to the chest. Mhm. Now, what I would argue and and I think we differ on some of this because
you said earlier, yeah, rightfully so, a lot of this stuff should be kept close to the vest.
I think as, you know, we're talking about many years have passed. Right. You know, I think investigators need to
the more evidence that you release, the more leads you will get. And I know some of those leads that
you'll get are going to be kind of a waste of time, but you're going to get more leads. So, if there
was some kind of signature, we don't know. And if there is, they might might want to release that. Right.
And you and I have both voiced publicly here uh that, you know, regarding the Amy Mihaljevic The garage is not public,
dude. Uh but regarding the Amy Mihaljevic case uh here from Ohio, Mhm. when they
released information that they did say, when they released the information, they
said, "Look, we're not certain if this is tied to the case or if or if it's not." Um you know, it could be, but th-
this item, these drapes were found in the area, found near her body, and but but they released this information what,
20 25 years later? And it's like um okay, yeah, as you're saying with Father Coons' murder, this takes place in 1998.
Yes, there there could be um there would be reason to release some of that to maybe have somebody point the
finger at the right guy, especially especially when they come out and say, you know, we believe that this guy would
have had obvious signs of injury probably on his face after this murder took place. So, we're talking about a
town of 6-700 people. If if in fact somebody from the town committed that crime, well, um it's not too hard to tie
those two things together. Well, in law law enforcement's defense, you know, back in 1998, I don't think they had a
lot of what would be the word? I don't think they had a lot of hope or a lot of I
don't think they put a lot of weight into armchair detectives. And I think you're seeing now like even with the
Delphi murders when they come out with that new suspect drawing, you know, we released that I I've been
getting so many you know, we have the sketch that they released with the Delphi murders, but I've been
getting pictures of suspects that look similar and then I get a whole background
of this individual and I go, well, how did you get this? How did you get the background of this individual? Oh, well,
I did my research. So, I I think once law enforcement starts putting a little more weight into armchair detectives and
web sleuthers, you know, I think some of these things would wouldn't go as cold so fast. Right. And I have to agree with
you, Captain. Back to something you said earlier regarding the satanic aspect of
this murder. I'm with you. I think that if it was some teenage group of Satanists or some
random group of Satanists that they might have made it clear at the crime scene, there would have been been some
kind of visual display of such. If it was some kind of weird satanic thing going on within the
church, I think you're right, they would be quiet about that. It wouldn't be something that they would make so
obvious for investigators. Um So that's the first theory. Yes, regarding the investigation itself, I'm going to take
you just real quick. This is Dane County Sheriff Hamblin. Um he is uh he he notes in this article
in his interview that he is a lifelong Catholic. Uh he does admit that the investigation has been tedious and
frustrating. Uh he said that they had tracked down thousands of tips from the public Mhm. and they were checking and
re-check re-checking what is now a room full of detailed police reports. Uh he says, "I don't know how many people
we've spoke to. I do know that it's been quite a number of people. It's been all
the way from one coast to the other end of the country as far as people that they've spoke with." Now, in this same
interview, one by one he dismisses the more uh fanciful possibilities uh in this
case and he dismisses them outright. Uh the first being something we spoke about
yesterday, the calf mutilation connection. He states, "Nope, you know, was there any connection between
Father Coons in the death of this calf?" He says, "Nope, there there's been lots
of rumors around town regarding that incident." Mhm. But they didn't find anything. They
investigated it. They didn't find anything. Well, in the timeline of that killing of the calf might not actually
actually be accurate either. I mean, that could have all just been rumor or hearsay. The other thing was the
exorcism referral. Um remember we said that it it was thought by some other priest that Coons was to be contacted or
to be conducting an exorcism soon in the near future before his uh death occurred. Um the thing here is
they said the same thing. We that they investigated that and nothing came of it. Now, he adding his own opinion
though, stating that um when when people talk about an exorcism referral as far as this case is concerned, he says that
he he would actually think of someone with a mental illness rather than somebody being possessed by a demon.
Mhm. Uh this is from his police background. And he says that he believes every evidence in this investigation has
pointed to that this would be a very emotional murder. Which brings all sorts of possibilities. So, what he's what I
think if we're trying to read between the lines here of what the Sheriff Hamblin is saying, a a a probably very
emotional murder. The Reading between the lines, I feel like that means that there's some ties.
There's some more direct ties from the assailant to the victim rather than just a some mentally ill person, somebody
that is demonically possessed, or some Satanist, you know, or or or Mhm. a random drifter, you know, because that
was one theory at the beginning. Yeah, I don't know if I buy that. Again, like we we do have evidence that there
was no breaking and entering. Mhm. So, was was it a drifter that the father was trying to help? Or was this somebody
that he knew? Uh and he let this person in. Or did this person have access? So, let's get into some more theories.
Right. And I think the thing there reading between the lines though, I think the Sheriff is implying some kind
of relationship between the murderer and the the victim there. Right, some knowledge of of who was his
murderer. And he was also directly asked about a church connection, perhaps the controversy going on in Springfield,
Illinois uh diocese, and he says nope, there was no connection confirmed that direction either. You spoke about that a
little bit yesterday. but I don't About some investigations that Coons was rumored we we can't
confirm. He was rumored to have been involved in some kind of investigations into the Diocese and
Springfield, Illinois. Well, and also all the Diocese in and all of Illinois. And so what did he say on the radio
show? What did the people working on the radio show know? That seems like very controversial
Catholic radio show. You're going against the church. They never like that. So is there any you know,
again, we have a priest friend that was on the show talking about these inner um
child pedophile um rings within the Catholic Church. So there's your connection. Uh is it connected to the
murder? We don't know, but there is a connection there. Well, staying on that note on the thought of
another priest and also the uh their radio show as well. In the aftermath of Coons' death, um you know, the aftermath
got strange and then it got even stranger. There would be stories of the exorcism referral that we talked about,
the satanic assassinate assassination. Eventually there's in innuendos of sexual impropriety by Coons and we'll
get to that in a little bit. Uh there would even be allegations that his murder could somehow be linked to evil
in the most unthinkable of places, the vast Catholic hierarchy that Coons was tied to as a priest. Some even blame the
Vatican in Rome. So could someone within the church really have killed Coons or ordered him to be killed?
Right, like a hit. Mhm. Well, remember we spoke about Peter Kelly. He is the attorney that was the producer of the
radio show that had worked with Coons uh for quite some time in Monroe, um Wisconsin.
Now, Peter Kelly, when asked that question, could somebody in the church really have killed Coons or ordered him
to be killed, uh, his response was absolutely. As unbelievable as that might sound to some people,
um, he says absolutely. And he also adds that there were an awful a lot of people
in the church for whom life would have been a lot easier if Father Coons was not around.
Right. So, again, I think he was doing some investigative work. This is, like I said, a couple years before the whole
Spotlight thing in in Boston. Mhm. Uh, if you haven't seen that, um, movie, I think it it's it's very, um,
educational on on the inner workings of systems and how they protect themselves. Mhm. Um,
and I think he probably knew some stuff. And again, uh, the, you know, like I said, there'd
be a signature. Now, if you're just trying to shut somebody up, you only need one
signature. Mhm. A slit throat. Right. normally indication of that this person was talking.
Right? Correct. I mean, that's I'm not saying that other people aren't murdered for other things or people
aren't murdered like that, but to me, it's like, um, this this person kind of knew what they're doing. They they they
cut a artery. You know, which doesn't happen in every, um, slit, you know, not every time does somebody slit somebody's
throat do they hit a artery. So, it feels like, you know, maybe that this person kind of had some understanding of
what they were doing. Well, and one story that has kind of weaved itself into the story of the
murder of Alfred Coons, of Father Alfred Coons, is this one. This is a strange story, but this is a man claiming to be
Coons's friend. Uh, this is Abbot Ryan St. Ann Scott. Mhm. Um, now, this person felt that Coons's murder was
related to Koons's investigation of sexual abuse scandals inside the Diocese and this referring to the Springfield,
Illinois Diocese stating that Koons had allegedly been investigating reports of homosexuality
and sexual abuse by priest within that Diocese. Now, how did these two find each other? Well,
Reverend Ryan and Scott claims that and he's currently going by a different name
Ryan and OSB those are Yeah, I don't I think that stands for some kind of title there Captain but
this is a this is a SOB Yeah, I'm more familiar with that one. So Scott is what has been labeled by the
Catholic Church as an independent Catholic priest. That's what I am. I guess that that means he's not in
communion with Rome. Right, that's what I am. I'm Father Captain SOB. The other thing that the debatable topic
about this guy though is that it's whether he was validly ordained or not is the big debate and that's the
argument that the Catholic Church is saying well, why why would they want to say that he's not ordained because they
want to discredit this man who claims to be a victim of sexual abuse by members of the Catholic clergy in an incident
that occurred in the Archdiocese of Milwaukee. He states this was after um after Koons's death but this man states
that in 1998 his confessor and spiritual director was Reverend Father Alfred Koons from Dane,
Wisconsin. Of course the brutally murdered in his church and he but he's stating you know that he was working
with this guy. He he had worked with Koons regarding his personal story and regarding these allegations that he's
brought forward about Springfield, Illinois. Now, his own personal um his own personal tragedy that took place
or the crimes against him would have taken place early in the fall of 1976. So, when when this guy was a much
younger man, um he he was brutally gang-raped in the St. John's Cathedral in Milwaukee,
Wisco- Wisco- according to him. He states that he was lured there under false pretenses by a fellow priest and
was set up for humiliation and bodily harm. Right. Um according to Scott, Father
Koons was was determined um to to to validate that this guy was actually ordained, that he was an actual
real ordained priest. Um Right, because it's this like I said before, it's the system covering up the
system. Mhm. You know, so they're going to Okay, we're going to discredit this guy by saying he he's not ordained. So,
okay, again, what does that have to do with anything? Can you answer me that? Well, I
I mean just a at a grand scale thing. Because there if you if you read the full length of his allegations against
these other priest, he would have had to have been a priest for this to for the crime to have gone down the way he said
it went down. So, if so, do you see what I'm saying there? Right, so so the church is saying
if he wasn't ordained, then therefore the story is bogus. Right, it's like it's like if I said,
you know, I was once a member of the Oakland Raiders. Oh, sorry, my my phone is going off.
You should have shut off your phone in the garage. that's the first time we've had a phone.
No, I I got I got guilty of that once, so I think we're even Steven now. But what I'm what I'm getting at is the way
that the story goes down is that it'd be the same as if I said I was a member of
the Oakland Raiders and during halftime inside the locker room the one of the players
punched me out. Okay. That's not the same thing. No, it'd be like you saying you're a part of the Oakland Raiders,
you're the punter, and then when you got in the locker room you're gang raped by
the offensive line. I don't think that That would be the same. No. What I'm saying is that it it is the exact same
because as soon as I go and I report the crime and then the Oakland Raiders go um
It's different crime, though. He's never been Well, duh, but when they say he's never
been a member of this football team, then immediately my allegations, my whole story falls apart immediately, you
know. Not necessarily. That is what I'm saying. But how? If I'm stating that the that
the assault took place at halftime while I was employed by the Oakland Raiders and I was there in the locker room
because I was a player on that team and I was assaulted and then they go, "Well, that's
impossible. He's never been a member of this football team. He would have never been in the locker room. We don't know
what he's talking about." My argument is that it would be yes, lie, lie, but if you can prove one of those things, you
know, it'd be like again, "Oh, well, I'm a you know, I work for the garage, blah
blah blah, I got beat up." "Oh, well, you actually don't work for this garage." "But I have proof that I was
beat up." "Well, just because you know, I wasn't truthful about about one thing doesn't mean that just because I was
just because I lied about one thing doesn't mean the next thing is automatically a lie is what I'm saying.
Possibly, but what I'm saying is if you read the full length of this of these accusations, he would have had
to have been a priest. He would have had to been working in that capacity for this for this to be truthful at all.
Right, but then the argument too is that Father Coons was trying to prove Right. He was trying to validate this
guy being as an ordained priest. Again, another motive for the system to cover up the system. Mhm.
Um this Saint Ann person himself, he is a controversial character. Um and that's
not just by the um opinion of the church. Mhm. Um in 19 he has a felony conviction uh from 1994
uh for misconduct in public office. Um apparently he had a check from the city for $30 and he magically made it
turn into a check for $300. Uh and he got caught for this. The old add a zero trick.
Um add that to the list of things not to do that we were going over yesterday, Captain. Mhm. Um but this this person
and I again, similar situation to, you know, Malachi Martin that we discussed yesterday. When
it comes to this guy, he has these allegations. They are interesting. Are they true? I don't know. I There's I
don't know if that there's enough evidence or enough proof to back up some of his statements. Now it has been
uh reported that we talked about roughly, you know, kind of touched on that Springfield, Illinois connection.
Mhm. Um but the the bishop eventually did resign from um his office there. So I don't know if that you can make your
own opinion on that if it that means if there is any sign of guilt or not. Well, and that's one of the one of the
major things that the spotlight team uncovered in Boston was whether it was people resigning or them moving around
priests to cover their tracks. Mhm. So uh cover their tracks, I mean, basically just hide criminals. Um Captain, we got
to talk about this thing though here uh because about 2 years after the murder of Father Coons, there's an article that
came out. This is from the um, Madison uh, Associated Press um, stating that the title is "Slain
priest had relationships with women." Uh, and I'll give you the gist of it. And I'll give you the gist of it rather
than read through the whole thing. Read it slow. Like one of those Penthouse Forums?
Um, so basically what they're stating here is that the investigators believe that uh, Father Koons had carried on
intimate relationships with women uh, involved in the parish Uh, Is there any other kind?
for about 20 years continuing just prior to his death. Now, investigators came out with this information because they
were asking the public for leads now that they had this new possible motive. Right, so the motive would be he was
having a sexual relationship with a a married woman and then the the husband found out and then decided to kill
Father Koons. Yeah, became in a jealous rage, stormed into the church and Which is definitely a crime of passion, so I
could see you know, this being a possible motive. Mhm. This this seems likely, you know,
um, It would seem more likely if he wasn't as old as he was. Correct. And that's one thing that that a lot of the
parishioners were pointing out um, that they were stating, you know, they felt uh, I think the church
um, and I mean his specific church, people that had relationships as as far as a a priest and parishioner
relationship with Father Koons. They got very upset about this um, coming out. And they and they actually got very
upset with their own sheriff and their own sheriff's department because they almost felt like these allegations were
not warranted uh, and that they were really just kind of dragging the good father's name
through the mud after death. Well, the statistics are like only 47% of priests are
are celebrate anyways. So, I mean that's pretty you know, for people that take a oath
you know. Right. An oath of chastity that you're stating that the the numbers are on the side of the investigators
allegations. Yeah, but uh but I mean it's it's a dumb rule anyways. I mean that was that wasn't put
into place by the church for for a very long time. And it was only put into place so it had nothing to do with being
more holy or anything like that. It was more just so the priest in the community had a lot of
power. And so if they had kids then they could transfer that power over. So, now
you're becoming more of a kingdom than you are a church. So, the Catholic Church put that into law and therefore
they couldn't pass down the their power to their family. Mhm. Well, this would lead the investigators to um investigate
and interviewing um a lot of the female parishioners. Mhm. Um and we have I have
an account of how some of the questioning went down uh for one woman but we will get right to that after this
quick beer break. All right. We are back. Cheers mates. Cheers my friend. Um we were talking about some of the
parishioners getting questioned female parishioners uh regarding if Father Coons had intimate relationships with
them. Well, one woman this is Morris Smith. She was a St. Michael parishioner who was identified as one of the women
that police thought Coons might have been having an intimate relationship with. Now, Smith describes the police
um attention as relentless, uh intimidating, and unbearable. Her uh butcher knives were confiscated from her
home. Smelly. Yeah, they Well, they searched her home. Uh confiscated butcher knives,
a a baseball bat, tools, snapshots of Coons, and other personal items of hers. Mhm. Uh there was interview upon tough
interview, she says. Um Again, now if they're pulling stuff like the baseball bat and stuff are Now, can
we assume that maybe he was hit with some object? Maybe he was attacked by more than one weapon.
Right. And again, wouldn't that be something that you I don't know. I think it's
I have a real issue with them keeping too much information close to the vest. Uh they The authorities also took blood
and hair samples. Um they would say that uh Mara, you know, they would ask Mara questions. Mara, I'm sorry. Did Did he
touch you? Did he grab you? Uh And she's like, "Just above the belly button." Well, they said he They told her that
they were asking these same questions and doing similar searches with all of the women of the parish. Well, well,
yeah, you'd expect them to be asking these questions of these women if if this is a possible motive. Mhm.
Well, the thing here is Smith says of her experience, you know, regarding Father Coons was that their relationship
was was innocent. She says Father Coons was a gentleman. She says regarding her what she would call um intimidating
questioning that she received from the police as well as uh them searching her home, she states that she has suffered
more than her fair share of what what was entailed in this investigation. Um she eventually moved out of the area.
She moved to Milwaukee. Um Milwaukee. Because she was upset about the ordeal citing police harassment um and accusing
the sheriff's office of dragging Coons's name through the mud. So that's one ladies that's one of the ladies of the
parish her experience as far as the allegations about Father Coons with women of the
Right. So church and if there were potentially a jealous husband or boyfriend involved in
the murder. Right. So basically what you know, they come up with this theory and
they This is trying me drives me insane. Let's come up with the theory and then we try to prove it. How about you try to
prove it before you start, you know, again, we'll hold all this stuff to the vest really closely, but you know, we're
going to start spreading rumors that this this father was having affairs with with ladies from his church. Well, a lot
of times investigators or police will use the word intimate to to mean just a close relationship to describe a close
relationship. I think that's irresponsible. Well, one thing that they did in this investigation and when they
would speak publicly about this investigation was at some point they dropped that word as
you know, saying intimate relationship with the priest. Mhm. Uh because at some point they started saying, you know,
their belief is that this person had an intimate relationship with the priest and had a good working knowledge of the
church itself or the building uh that he was found murdered in. Right. Now, the thing here is like I
said, they dropped that that intimate title and just changed it to a relationship or close relationship with
the father at some point because they you know, they're getting backlash from the from the from the parish. Well, of
course, again, investigate it then present the theory. Don't present the theory, then investigate it. I again I
just think that's irresponsible. So, that that theory is kind of squashed and what else we have? I know we had some
profiles that they had. Yes, so the police I do think that the investigators here did a pretty thorough job on this
investigation. Seems like they've worked very hard and tried everything they could. Now, one thing they did work with
FBI profilers. Mhm. Um the forensic behavior science experts who discern probable behavior at crime
scenes based on physical evidence and consultation with investigators. Police consider these profiles to just
be guiding tools. We all know that. Um here are the conclusions of the FBI profiles regarding the Father Koons
case. Uh this is their thoughts. One, the offender showed obvious rage publicly and like and the likely motive
was related to jealousy, revenge, betrayal, or something else very personal. So, a personal uh vendetta
against the the priest. Uh they also state that number two that the weapon might have a connection to the killer's
employment or hobby. And the weapon is one that the killer feels comfortable using.
Three, the impetus of the murder could have been an incident that occurred between the killer and Father Koons
within 72 hours of the crime. This could have been the result of a long or short-term conflict and possibly of a
nature that other people would consider insignificant. Right, I just laughed because
well, it could have been a short-term or could have been a long-term. profiles can can be vague at times.
Um the killer would have tried to ensu- ensure an alibi to account for his absence during the time of the homicide.
The excuse might be weak, but the killer will not waver from it. Okay. The next one is the day after the
murder, the offender might have missed work claiming illness or injury. We've heard about this in in many other cases
that we've covered. Uh if the killer did go to work, it would have been difficult
for him to concentrate while worrying how the police might be able to find a link between him and the murder. Mhm.
The killer's preoccupation with the crime may have caused noticeable behavioral changes such as withdrawing from friends
and family, changes in eating and sleeping habits, and or increased use use of drugs and alcohol. Mhm. I mean,
we see this a lot times too. Somebody cri- you know, commits a crime and and then really follow follows it as as
almost a obsession. Mhm. And and they can sometimes they can be getting caught that way as as a result.
Yeah, and regarding the drugs and alcohol, you know, sometimes they they believe that's a way
of the person dealing with the guilt or dealing with the stress of being worried
that they're going to get tied to the crime. Mhm. Um they also state that it is possible that the killer is vocal in
proposing theories about the crime that draw away attention such as an interpreted burglary or sorry,
interrupted burglary or a transient theory or a conspiracy theory regarding the death of Coons.
Um Which a lot of people didn't present weird theories. Maybe Father Martin did, but
um so other than that Well, I think I think there were a few people working with in some capacity with the
church that were voicing some what we would say quote unquote weird theories. Um but yeah, not many theories seem to
be coming from the general public. Um Their other thought would be that people close to the killer may be a be aware of
a past dispute with the father. Um they might suspect the killer's involvement in the crime, but they also
might sympathize with the killer's situation. That seems like a strange one to throw in there. I wish I would have
exed that one out of their profile cuz that one just sounds Yeah, weird. Um next, the killer is a white male.
Here's where we get to some more specifics. It's always a white male. The white guy
did it. Um the killer is a white male probably in his late 20s or older. They estimate the age uh because of the
killer um lack of panic after the murder. That this must be somebody that's a little
older, that's a little uh more patient. That this wasn't a teenager or very young man. Um the murderer was known to
Father Coons. Um but also had a physical size that posed no threat to the to the father, to Father Coons. Right,
so not a large man. Well, this makes you wonder because they're they they're gathering some of this evidence as
physical evidence and with consulting with the active investigators on this crime. When they say that he has
no physical size that posed a threat to Father Coons, that makes you believe that he that
Father Coons very likely opened the door and let this person into the building. Or
And I think we've seen evidence of that. Yeah. Um Coons' murder was probably uh employed full-time as nothing of
value was taken from the scene. Remember we said early in the investigation they
would not rule out robbery. It sounds like it has been ruled out. Which I think, you know, that
uh the drifter Mhm. Cuz you know, doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The drifter probably would have taken
something. Would have would have robbed the place in some form, yeah. But again, it's a big church, too. So, I
I it could be something again. And we also don't have Father Coons is not writing down an inventory of everything.
That's true. So, there could be there could be some uh let's you know, like some of those
like wine cups that they have, you know, or maybe they're just gold-plated, but you'd think maybe one of those would be
gone, but again, how many did they have? There could have been something taken and they just didn't know it.
Mhm. I agree with that. Um So, I went from drifter theory doesn't make any sense to it's
still still involved. It's still on the plate. Well, wait to scratch it off the paper. Oh, wait.
Uh they also state that the killer had at least a high school education. I love how they figure these things out. A
full-time employed uh at least a high school education and no extensive criminal record. The killer's
intelligence is average, but he is he is without the street smarts of a sophisticated criminal. Mhm. So, almost
stating, you know, we see no extensive criminal record and without the sophisticated uh street smarts of a
sophisticated criminal. So, this might be this first person's first um rodeo, so to speak. Um
and at the very maybe even more hadn't committed any crimes at all. Um the next one um is the killer did not
expect the amount of blood gushing from the fatal wound um complicating the weapon, his
clothing, and this this would complicate the disposal of his clothing and the weapon. This creating a problem for the
killer. Also unexpected was how fierce Coons struggled. No matter how brief the altercation was,
the killer was punched several times and may have been scratched or cut by the murder weapon itself. Right. These
injuries would have been visible to those close to the murderer. Mhm. Well, I like those FBI profiles,
Captain, and I and I like when they release them for um I could read those all day long and you're right though
there's there are things to them all day. There are things in there that you can
snicker at that you can laugh at a little bit. There there are some vague vagueness to them at times.
Um but I think that that would lead us to our next topic which would be you know we discussed theories.
But let's talk about some more let's talk about suspects and let's talk about them as specific suspects.
Mhm. Um so several sources um confirmed at one time in this investigation that the investigation was
targeting the teacher who had found Coons' body. Right. Um after this was this is different though because this is
after the this teacher moved in with Coons' friend. Who did he move in with? He moved in with Reverend Fiori. Uh now
remember we talked about this guy. He's a long time friends with Father Coons. And this quote unquote suspect moves in
with Fiori, lives with him for about 6 months. This is almost immediately after the murder. Right. Um the teacher
eventually moved out of the state um and was recently engaged to be married. Um I'm guessing I don't have anything to
back this up but I'm guessing that possibly that relationship with the woman may have taken him out of the
state. Um after finding the body though this teacher called 911 on the morning of
March 4th, 1998. The teacher did pass this is according to police uh passed police questioning. Um and what they did
was How he passed police questioning that he I was waiting for you to say a polygraph but No, this is according to
the police. Um now one thing that they did at the time um they took this person's clothing
because remember after finding the body, this teacher's clothing was covered in blood.
Mhm. So, they took his clothing and they left They basically left the teacher wrapped up in a blanket. Um what had
happened was when the when Father Koons was found murdered at the church, you know,
there was supposed to be school that day. There was going to be other teachers. There was going to be students
there. This was going to be a regular day in Dane in Dane County. Right. Um but what ended up happening was they
discovered the murder and so they sent all of the parishioners, all of the school children, all the people arriving
to the school that morning, they sent them across the street to the village hall. Um now there this teacher this
teacher that is more shocked than the rest of the parishioners because he in fact found the body. Mhm. He's had his
bloody bloody clothing confiscated from him, taken from him. He's now wrapped in
a towel sitting amongst all of these other people who were in shocked that their their priest was killed. Well, a
couple things with this. I mean, the murder weapon would have to be close. Mhm. And they should be able to do DNA
testing to see if this teacher had any blood um like a mixture of blood between his
and father's. Mhm. But you know, I'm assuming they did that that testing. Well, the police they
the thing the problem they had with him as a suspect was they and this might just be
their intuition. That's that's taking him away. This might just be their own, you know, experiences as a police
officer detective. But they're stating that they would find it highly highly improbable that this guy would
have killed the priest sometime at night. So, this would probably have taken place at 11:30, 12:30 that night
and then been the first one to return to the crime scene to find the victim. Um the thing, Captain, though they they
that he would stay in the church that whole time. Correct. Mhm. And so, we also have uh the teacher
was again interviewed by investigators at least once that I could find. This would have been in late March uh with a
lawyer present. So, questioned the day of the finding and then questioned again at a later date in March. Now, sometimes
when you're questioning somebody, it's not because it's not to insinuate any guilt. Maybe they're not guilty of
anything, you're just going over what they saw, anything they recollect uh that had taken place. Maybe there was
something that you missed uh the first time. Um, Fiori and others uh involved that knew this man and knew Father Koons
very well um have told said publicly that they cannot imagine any connection um from this teacher to the actual
murder. Um, and then everybody kind of coming to the defense of this teacher stating that
the teacher was not did not appear to have been injured in any way on March 4th. Um, and remember we said according
to the FBI profile as well as the investigators that Koons put up a pretty good fight uh even if it was a short
fight uh before his throat was slashed. Yeah, the problem with that though problem with that evidence is again we
don't know what what they're talking about. So, like I said before, maybe there's bruises on his knuckles and
stuff like that. And there's multiple ways. I mean, maybe you get a bruise from your knuckle
because you did punch somebody. Or maybe you get a bruise from your knuckle because in the struggle your
hand smacks against the wall. So, I think sometimes that, you know, there is just quote unquote scientific evidence
of maybe that this guy put up a fight and that somebody should be injured, but that does, you know, you got to air that
there's always that slim possibility that what you're seeing, what you think you're seeing scientifically is not what
you're seeing. Right. Right. Um, you know, so they didn't see didn't have any injuries that were visible to the public
on that day that the body was found. Um, and also stating that the teacher did not show any visible signs of anger
toward Father Koons at any time uh before or after the murder. And this to me seems like kind of a weak suspect.
Uh, obviously, you'd want to question this individual because he found the father that he actually worked with the
father, but this seems like a weak suspect to me, but there was a stronger suspect. Yes, there was a stronger
suspect. And just before we get to this this other suspect, staying on your same
thought there, uh, investigating the person that found him, also investigating the person that last was
known to see Father Koons. So, we did have Father Fiore, uh, who did endure a heavy police scrutiny at one time.
Mhm. Um, and one article that I found, and I couldn't confirm this with with other articles, but it stated he had
been cleared in the as having any involvement in the murder of the priest. Now, so here here's the next guy. And
and this guy might be a little bit better of a suspect than both of the last two people we discussed. So, this
comes from a gentleman by the name of Matt Abbott. Uh, he's somebody that's covered this case extensively. Uh, he's
a writer, a journalist that has covered this case extensively over the years. Uh, and one article that he wrote uh was
titled "Did a Hanged Rapist Kill a Wisconsin Priest?" Uh, and in the article, he says that he had received an
email from a person named John Kavanaugh. Now, this John Kavanaugh is a retired Dane County Deputy. And John was
stating that he knew the person, well, he knew of a person with a violent, a very violent background who was in the
area on the day of Father Koons's murder. Uh, this person uh that he's going to say allegedly killed Father Coons uh is
now deceased. Yeah, he's going to implicate him in the Well, where did John Cavanaugh get his information? He
says that the suspect, his father, had told John that the suspect had contact with Father Coons and that he had asked
Father Coons for money. He was refused and in this person's words, he said he had to rough him up. So, he had to rough
up the priest after he's denied money. Now, this perpetrator, this suspect, is John Cavanaugh's nephew. So, it would be
John's brother, the father of the suspect, that gave him this information. Now, who is his nephew? His nephew had a
history of violence toward women. He was incarcerated pending trial on charges of assault and kidnapping and he
committed suicide while he was waiting for that trial. He had previously served time in state prison for assaulting
another woman. Well, right. Okay, so think about this, too. I mean, think about how many cases that we've had.
I think Aurora shooting, Aurora theater shooting, Sandy Hook, I think. Um couple other ones where where the
parents hear about a crime and they get a gut feeling that it was their their son or their daughter or whoever,
right? Right. And so, we have this case where this thing happens in a small town.
But, yeah, maybe the father you know, gets more information, but he had a gut feeling from the beginning.
Well, the strange thing about this person saying that he had to, you know, he was refused money and then he had to
rough up the priest. Well, he used this same phrase when he described a crime he had
committed like eight or 10 years before the murder of Father Coons. He had went to his own grandfather for money
and asked him for money and was refused and he told he told his father about this and said, "I had to rough up gram
my grandfather cuz he refused me money." He roughed the grandfather up so badly that the guy had to go to the hospital
and he spent the rest of his days in a wheelchair. So, it was it was damn near murder, you know what I mean? Uh to use
the words "had to rough him up." So, this man John Kavanaugh though is saying that he had once he had this information
from his brother about his nephew's confession, quote unquote confession, um he notified the sheriff's office.
Uh he said that they did do a little bit of follow-up on this. Uh they contacted
the father, they spoke with him, um but they did get back in contact with this John Kavanaugh and they told him, "You
know, what what your nephew told to your brother uh cannot be construed as a confession." Right.
Um that it's this is not considered a confession. On top of that, uh we're looking at a suspect that's already
dead. Maybe that has something to do with how much effort that they're going to put into this thing. Um he's tried to
get them time and time again to to consider this as as a strong theory in this case. He says, "But for what it's
worth, he is a retired Dane County deputy." Um so, he he would have worked with some of these investigators. And he
said that there are personality clashes uh with many who are in power at the sheriff's office today, which could very
well be one reason for their perceived failure to act upon his claims. He says that they're in no hurry to admit that
perhaps they should have followed up on this information years ago. Now, John Kavanaugh's nephew is Joseph Kavanaugh
and as we said, he did have a history of violence and possibly mental illness. Yeah, so a couple weird things here cuz
one, you'd think that this police department would and we've seen this time and time again with
other police departments where even if this is not the right guy, this guy is dead so therefore you can't defend
himself. I mean, we're not going to bring charges with there's not going to be charges to
anybody in this uh case, but this case will at least be closed and this is the most, you know, uh you dare say popular
case or most covered case in their small little county so you'd think we we just
got to get this closed. Um so I I kind of, you know, want to say, "Hey, I applaud them for not just, you know,
going Here's the guy, he did it. We're never going to charge him so let's move on." Right. Um but it seems like they
didn't do their due diligence on this. And I the reason why I think that the suspect being dead is is a hindrance for
them, is something that they don't wish to pursue, I wonder if the investigators
know that a confession is really the ultimate way of solving, you know, that this is might be the only way left of
solving this crime or this case. so much time has passed and there might not be I- if the if the attacker didn't cut
himself and there there might not be any DNA evidence. They did test, it was about four or five years into the
investigation. They said that they had a small amount of DNA that they wanted to
test and they were going to test in this investigation. However, they tested it and when they come back and they don't
really want to talk about the results or they're, you know, and they just say, "Well, it kind of went nowhere." Well,
that means it I I it means that it's either not DNA that they thought that they had.
it's poopoo. Right. Right. It's it's not going to lead to anybody's arrest. Now,
well, I would just on this theory, my gut feeling is, look, I mean, uh no parent, that's the you know, one
of the worst you know, other than your child passing away, the the second worst thing would be,
right, your child committing some some heinous crime like this. So, the fact that the father isn't coming forward and
saying, "Look, I I believe my son was responsible for this murder." Uh that holds a lot of weight with me. And thank
you for saying that because that reminded me the the vibe I got, what I read was that the
the father, not only did the the uncle suspect this guy, but the father backed it up as well as the the man's mother
firmly believed that he was involved in the the murder of Father Koons. Um now, more about this Matt Abbott who has
covered this case extensively, and this is a more recent article that he has written regarding the death of Father
Koons. Um he says and it it's it's it's a very long article, and the juicy stuff is at
the end. So, I'll read I'll read the end of that article, and it says, "Now for that interesting bit of information
pertaining to the murder investigation." He states that once again, he was contacted by somebody. This is a private
investigator had informed him that the prime suspect was a man who was known to Father Koons.
Apparently, this man was having more than a platonic relationship with another man who was also known to Father
Koons. The second man reportedly had some sexually suggestive photos of the suspect in his bedroom according to the
investigator. The simplest explanation is usually the best one, the investigator told Matt Abbott and
stating that maybe Father Koons caught the two together or saw a photo that was compromising. Maybe the man had
confessed to Father Koons about their homosexual relationship. Probably no one will ever know which one
of those is is is true, but he says, you know, all of the circumstances, you know,
even without the possible motive pointing primarily at the suspect, unfortunately this primarily does not
translate to anything beyond reasonable doubt. Um Basically, he he's stating that this
this guy went out and killed Father Coons because he was aware of this relationship that he was having with
another man. And this private investigator does he believes that the police did their job that they did their
due diligence. He thinks what has really really put this investigation on its side was that the the man he was having
a relationship with was not very forthcoming with information and may have even lied to the police early on in
this investigation. All right, so that's None of what you just said is that clear. So, the guy that murdered Father
Coons was actually having a affair with another man. I don't know if he was having an affair,
but he was having according to this article in this investigation a relationship.
He was having a homosexual relationship with another man. Father Coons knew about this homosexual
relationship, he had to murder him. That doesn't seem like that. That's according to this investigator
and the article written by Matt Abbott. Right. That Yeah, I don't like this theory that much at all.
Now, police did state that there was an anonymous letter that was sent to the police
years ago in this investigation that did name a suspect for them. Later, police were able to identify who
this anonymous person is. Now, they've not outwardly said who the anonymous person was. They've also not stated who
the was implicated in the letter that was sent to them. All right, so where did this investigation lead them? Well,
the thing here is I wonder if that's where this in this private investigator came up with this whole theory about the
two men having a relationship that one of them would have moved out of town, one of them remained in town, and maybe
the the the one that remained in town knew what was going on, lied to the police early in the investigation, felt
bad, felt guilty, knows who killed the father, killed the priest, and sent this anonymous letter. That's my That's a
suspicion. That's a bit of a leap. I understand that, Captain. It's a little bit of a leap. Mhm. Um but by 2009,
investigators with the Dane County Sheriff's Department um were willing to state that they did have a long-time
suspect. They would not name who this uh suspect was and said that um has never been named. Um they've not arrested this
person because they have lack of sufficient sufficient evidence to do so. Um Steve Gilmore, he was the lieutenant
of detectives with the department, said that the suspect left town soon after Father Kunz's murder.
Um he said that they know where this person is. They know that they They know what he's up
to. Apparently, they're they're watching him um or have watched kept an eye on him.
They state that if indeed he had committed this murder, then he stayed pretty clean. You know, he's not gone
out there wherever he's located and committed other crimes. And they also state that they certainly don't think
that there's any threat to the public out there. Uh Yeah, I laughed about that as well.
god. Wow. Hey, dummies, wake up. Killed a priest. Right? Right. This suspect that you believe is a
suspect, if he's actually somewhat of a suspect, he killed a priest because he was having having a
relationship with another man. Well, that's if those two were actually tied together. That was me me making
that leap, but I know what you're getting at here, Captain. If somebody's capable of killing a priest once, I
think they will Slit in their throat. I think they always remain a threat to the public. It but as much as we as much
as we want to get upset about that statement that Gilmore made to the the newspaper,
the thing here is though, it doesn't matter because what can they do? If they don't have evidence, they can't arrest
the guy and and ensure the public that he's not going to harm anybody else. They're kind of left with their hands
tied. So, what Gilmore basically is stating that as of, you know, this was in 2009 article. However, he states in
this article that as of 2008, that suspect was alive. Um he was under surveillance
by somebody. Yeah, I'm sure he is. And he was no longer living in the Dane County uh jurisdiction. All right. Well,
that's um you know, It does leave a little sour taste in your mouth. I'm drinking beer. There's no There's no
There's no sour taste in this There I got a little taste of honey. Didn't you hear the man talk about this
delicious beer? So, does any of that lead you to to any direction in this case where
where you feel that you have a better idea or better sense of who committed this crime?
No, cuz originally looking into this, my gut feeling and and probably because I just
watched Spotlight, my my my original gut feeling was, you know, Father Martin talking about uh possibly some kind of
inner workings of the church and trying to cover it, you know, system covering up system. That's kind of where my gut
feeling was going, but like you said, we read into this. When you have um a child that you believe uh had the
capability of doing this, roughed up his grandfather, had all these vicious attacks, uh kidnappings on women,
um uses the same verbage when he talks about roughing he had to rough up the father. Right.
Father Coons that is and and so now you got a uncle, a father, and a mother all stating that this person they believe
should be the number one suspect. There might not be evidence to prove that. Right.
So, that you know, kind of ties law enforcement's hands. So, but you know, then they toss in this other
person and I don't want Okay, their remarks on he you know, he's not a a threat to society. Well, that that is
just [ __ ] You know, uh and um they should be reprimanded somehow for just that dumbass comment.
But but how would you repre I thought about this quite a bit. Just spank them in front of people. Just
spank them. I don't think they can do that. Well, it depends on but here but the saying is is
then but again, if there's not enough evidence to link, you know, the the one suspect. Uh
what was his name again? The that was the Joseph Joseph Cavanaugh the Yeah, the Cavanaugh. that committed
suicide? Yeah, if there's not enough evidence to link him or maybe they did look into that and
they just don't think he's the guy because they have enough information on this other suspect. Uh that that's
that's the only thing there that make you know, kind of makes me question. Again, mom, father, uncle verbage, his
attacks before the suicide, all those things that you know, that's your number one suspect.
Mhm. But I don't want to discredit law enforcement if they go, "We got this other guy
and we'd like to get him." Right. Yeah, I've I'm with you, Captain. I think I the one thing I think I rule out
here is the Satanist aspect. Never rule that out. that I think that one seems less likely
the more you get into this situation and you see that it is very likely that um that Father Koons had some type of
personal relationship with the person that committed this crime. Whether it be just somebody that attended his church,
I think it was a familiar face that knocked on the door that night and he opened up the door to the to his killer.
Um and I think that's how the Yeah, but you can't rule out, you know, somebody part of the clergy, so
um that's all I'm saying. Um but I again, I think it's somebody somebody that the father recognized that
night and I think he let them into the building. Now, there was a priest that recently wrote um the killer of Father
Koons still walks among us. Uh no one can be certain if this vis- vicious killer has or will strike again. Until
the murder of Father Koons is arrested and convicted, an individual possessed by evil walks among us, assured that at
at least once he has successfully murdered a man of God and gone unpunished. Until this crime is solved,
those who hate God and his people know that it is possible to kill and get away with murder. Um anybody having any
information regarding the murder of Father Koons uh should call the Dane County Sheriff's Office at 608-284-6871.
And I really hope they do get more information and and have the closure of this case cuz one of the things that I
applaud um Alfred Father Alfred Koons for doing was to look at his own Mhm. and to see that there was a problem
within um the inner workings of of the church. Right. And something that he fully believed in.
I mean, he committed his life to the church, he committed his life to a community. So, whether or not you're
religious or not, um anybody that I think commits themselves to a community and lifting up people and doing good
instead of harm, I applaud those people, but I also applaud the fact that he saw
that there are um evil demons within the church preying on kids and that he was doing some research and at least um
diving into it and not turning a blind eye as so many have. Well, so I applaud him for that. Yep. Uh
recommended reading for this week, Captain, we are recommending The Operator: Firing the Shots That Killed
Osama bin Laden and My Years as a SEAL Team Warrior. You were a SEAL Team? No, that's somebody else's words. This
is by one of the many, many heroes that have served this fine country. This is Robert O'Neill. Robert was on the SEAL
Team Six, obviously. He also served in Iraq and Afghanistan. This guy uh he served in our military's Tier One units.
He did 400 missions in his military career. He was involved in the rescue attempt of the Lone Survivor, also uh
the rescue of Captain Phillips, and of course the bin Laden thing. That's a brother of mine. And in his
book, The Operator, he reveals first-hand details of the most celebrated terrorist takedown in
history. So, please check out The Operator by Robert O'Neill, and you can do that by going to our website
truecrimegarage.com and click on the recommended page. Thank you guys for listening. Thanks for
telling a friend. Thanks for spreading the word. We appreciate you. Yep, we will see you
back here in the garage next week, and until then, be good, be kind, and don't litter.
Hey.

The Devil Did It /// Part 2 /// 127

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On March 4, 1998 Father Alfred Kunz was found dead in Saint Michael's Catholic Church, in Dane Wisconsin. Father Kunz was the victim of a homicide. He was found in a pool of his own blood. His throat had been cut. The body was discovered by a teacher arriving at the school. All of the doors were locked and there was no sign of forced entry. There have been many suspects and theories over the years. One of the most popular theories is Kunz was killed by satanists. Today we discuss this cold case and take a look at the theories and some suspects.

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the unsolved murder of Father Alfred Koons and theories surrounding potential suspects and church cover-ups.

Key points

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Hosts Nick and the Captain introduce the show and discuss their beer of the week.
The Murder of Father Alfred Koons. Discussion on whether the case is cold or still active, with differing opinions from investigators.
Possible Church Involvement. Peter Kelly suggests that someone in the church may have wanted Father Coons silenced.
Father Coons' Allegations. Investigators believe Father Coons had intimate relationships with women involved in the parish.
Police Harassment Claims. Morris Smith describes her experience with police questioning as relentless and intimidating.
FBI Profiles Insights. FBI profilers provide insights into the possible motives and behaviors of the killer.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

It's good to be seen and it's good to see you.

Nick welcomes listeners to the show.

11:23WatchDec 4, 2022

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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