The Clutter Family Murders | Morbid: A True Crime Podcast | Forensic Files

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hey weirdos I'm Ash and I'm Elena and this is morbid this is morbid [Music] [Music]
foreign [Music] [Laughter] yeah this is morbid and it's gonna be morbid because we're talking about a
very big um older because it's me but it's like the 50s so don't worry it's not that old
uh an old or True Crime case but one that a lot of people know about crazy because the 50 is like is old now it's
like super old but not like you know when I say old usually it's like 1800 1901 1877.
14.92. you know sail in the ocean blue all of that or were you but yeah we're here
um I just saw that you guys have gotten the episode where we were talking about Sinister Pond babe
um it's giving dark side in cause I just saw that people were commenting being like I came here from Mormon and I
cannot be [ __ ] happier yes I cannot be [ __ ] happier go Sinister babe is our girly girl
part of the bag cult but it's it I I needed a laugh last night like last yesterday was like just a rough day all
around and I ended the day being like wow today sucked and I was like shitty feeling and I was just sitting there
next to John or put on something on TV and I just like happened to scroll and the first thing that popped up on my
Tick Tock dark sided was was my favorite talking about some random town in Alabama talking about whether it was a
Sinister Pond or a bougie Pond that she was looking at she decided it was a bougie pond because there was horses
next time equestrians it is a bougie but you could ask John I was literally laughing out
loud and I was like I want her to Forever have everything she wants because she had that's a service that I
needed last night and she provided it I love the different ways in which we cope
because we we both have like a [ __ ] day yesterday um and I just did Mania at Target
you just did mean I just I was a Mania girl at Target I love that yeah I love that for you I got some workout leggings
got a notebook I'll probably never use a lot of pens we love that new cup what are you gonna do all the Necessities
yeah just like things that Target said you know this I just spent the night with Sinister Palm Vibe and also
thinking about playing The Sims but not actually doing it I'm gonna need for you
to play The Sims because I feel like this has been going on for years oh no it definitely has oh I really want to
play The Sims Ash but it's one of those Alina you should play The Sims but it's one of those things that I'm like yeah I
really want to play The Sims then I'm like when though yeah that's fair that's the thing like you're over there shocked
that I haven't sat and built myself a town well you know it'll take a few minutes off of tick tock and just piece
by piece build your town I know I think that is what I'm gonna end up doing just
give yourself again I say to you self-care maybe for you you your self-care is the Sims it
doesn't have to look like everybody else is oh yeah it's not a maybe it's for sure that's called something a scopism
but I keep getting you know what I'm getting tick tocks like Tick Tock is even telling me stop doing this and go
play The Sims because I'm getting all these Sims tick tocks that's because it listens to us yeah I like to I I know
that's totally the reason but it feels like a sign I'm like it's a sign guys for me how does he even know it's the
universe it's kind of like I was talking about like these specific very very specific shoes yesterday and that I was
on Instagram and they were like hey you there do you like these shoes we feel like you would like these shoes I was
like oh do you yeah cool who are you fooling so you know what go play The Sims if you feel like it
everybody and go to touch uh Sinister Palm bed yeah so bye today we are going to talk about the Clutter family murders
now I know I that I've heard of this case but I don't know if I know exactly what this is so you may a lot of people
may not know it as the Clutter family murders oh okay they may know it as the In Cold Blood murder case
Truman Capote oh she's she's confused you don't know who Truman Capote is am I going to be in Cold Blood
I gotta move on from that okay can you wait wait what Truman Capote is an author okay A a very well-known author
who wrote In Cold Blood about this case okay it's slightly controversial we're gonna talk about it at the end I'd like
to point out that this is your fault as my mother in True Crimes yeah it's one of the things it's a very big True Crime
book because it is known as the first non-fiction novel oh where there was some creative license
taken but it's an actual case yeah it's an interesting situation okay uh Philip Seymour Hoffman played Capote in like a
movie called Capote I think I know Philip Seymour Hoffman there you go he played him okay uh so there's that
oh man that's Wilds so I said I do no no I mean like the Truman Capote no I do I was like I know one of them I
was like I know you know philipsy more often I will I will not take that from him
please you know him who is he he's in the [ __ ] uh Hunger Games he was great in The Hunger Games yeah
all right P Phillips Seymour I know sad it's a sad one but you know what let's get into another very sad tragic case
okay we're going to talk about the Clutter family murders uh first let's talk about so the Clutter family they
lived in Kansas and Holcomb Kansas this is a really terrible crime a very senseless crime as most are but this one
is just like what the [ __ ] and especially because they went in there thinking they were gonna get a lot out
and they didn't get a lot out and they ended up no I mean the murders ah and they ended up killing an entire family
in the process tell me it solved yes it is so I'll thank the good Lord this one is solved we know who did it but there's
all kinds of weird little things with the killers too and we'll get into it um their their names are Richard Hickok
and Perry Smith okay and Perry Smith is like an interesting one because like a lot of
sympathy went to him at one point because he showed weird signs of having empathy but like I don't believe he did
clearly didn't because and he had like involved in the murder of an entire family and he had a very rough childhood
it was one of those things where it was like I feel bad for exactly so bad for the child so let's talk about the
patriarch of the Clutter family before we get into the horrific way in which they all died so Herbert clutter was the
patriarch of this family he was born in 1911 he held degrees from Kansas State University in economics and agriculture
his life was farming he worked and the whole like process of farming the whole business behind farming he worked as an
agricultural agent for Findlay County which meant he traveled around educating Farmers on advances in farming
technology and stuff like that eventually he started his own Farm in Holcomb in Kansas in the 1940s and he
called it River Valley Farm he was known as an extremely kind very hard-working and very loving man he was
very active in his community everyone knew him as a family man they knew his family they were very well known in
their Community he was a he was very personable he was always chatty when people came upon him he seems like
someone everyone would have immediately been drawn to he just has that Vibe about him and if you look at a picture
of him you're like yeah like he's a very kind face oh he was literally referred to several times in several different
sources that I saw as salt of the earth oh yeah that's awful as if we don't already love Herbert clutter he was
successful and also showed up for the little guy even in post-war United States when farming was really going
through a transformation with like new technology and automated you know Farm labor happening clutter's Farm was
thriving and he used his own knowledge his own experience to run it but he also fiercely advocated for smaller farms and
local farms he was even president of the National Association of Wheat Growers and he was the founder and president of
Kansas Association of Wheat Growers he just looks like a kind man he has those eyes and he has that smile that smile
and I'm not kidding you you cannot find something that says he was a dick that might have been like business owners who
were like yeah we had some like business things like of course that we would get
like kind of heated but like that was a human outside of business and as a human
and his family in his community he was beloved this whole family was I was gonna say this whole family looks like
just the guys next door the family next door it's the picture of a 50s like you know era family like they just look like
the picture-perfect family no it's so true in 1953 actually President Eisenhower appointed clutter to the
federal Farm Credit board and he was a like he was a [ __ ] gem like he was on a Nash National level now doing this
kind of stuff he was very active in politics local and National and really had to do with like
the farming industry but he was very active in it now in a little bit of contrast to Herb who was like very
outgoing very like all over the place a people person his wife was Bonnie clutter and she was very introverted she
did suffer a lot from severe bouts of depression and anxiety she went through it like truly crippling depression at
times in the years before she was murdered she had been hospitalized several times for several months she had
been receiving care in Wichita and her doctor said she was also suffering from nervous muscle spasms oh man which were
painful like physically and had to be medicated with medicine that would kind of a sedate Bonnie so she was like out
of it a lot like upstairs sleeping yeah but she tried she tried to fight through
this and she was she was making a get a valiant effort and she was like making Headway and she was really when she had
better moments like that you know they were few and far between at this point she was really fighting through it right
but she would make an effort to be active with her children whenever she could she was an active member of the
Methodist Church and she taught Sunday school there as well as being a member of the women's Society of Christian
service so she like and I think she was part of like the Garden Club too like she was really
trying to get out there trying to fight through this she was making it all and she was still there for her family and
by all accounts or herb stuck by her and like would do anything for her and she really fought but luckily even though
all this behind the scenes stuff was happening that people probably didn't see that much yeah it did not affect
their children in the slightest it doesn't seem like it when you see a picture they all have like beaming
smiles yeah they had four children uh they had two older daughters named Beverly and eviana they were adults they
had moved out of the house when this had happened I'd be honest really cool isn't
it pretty yeah um and then they also had a daughter named Nancy who was 16 at the
time of the murders in Kenyon who was a son and he was 15 years old okay Kenyan is a cool name too I mean also yeah
um they were all the picture of All American teenagers characteristic of that era Kenyan looks a lot like um like
his father he does yeah um both Nancy and Kenyon were active in the Methodist you fellowship and were
nominated in leadership roles in the organization as well so they were they were taking right after their dad yeah
being active in the community being beloved taking apart in things Nancy clutter like I said was 16 years old and
she really is the picture of the 1950s she truly when you look at a picture of her Pleasant bill it is it looks like
Reese Witherspoon in Pleasantville you know dark hair yeah exactly she was popular she was pretty she was a
straight A student she had a boyfriend named Bobby Rupp so Nancy had a boyfriend named Bobby like it just like
this it's just like how cute can you be they were going to The Lover's level oh they were going to dances and sock hops
you know poodle skirts and she loved to ride horses she was a member of Holcomb schools mixed chorus and also had just
received right before the murders The Good Citizen Award at school wow days before Oh and that was like a big deal
Kenyan her uh her younger brother was 15 years old he was also very popular very
well liked but he was very quiet again very pleasant he was like very much and he was very quiet like reserved but like
not off-putting he also got great grades he loved to Tinker with things he liked
to get his hands into things he was especially interested in fixing up his old Jeep oh he was also an athlete he
was like a jock um he was very athletic and was the star of the high school's basketball and
track teams damn doing it all unsurprisingly he was also a member of the Finley County 4-H club
so it all just the doing the damn thing they're all killing it yeah they were a tight family who supported and loved
each other and they did good for their Community together this is all of them were heartbreaking I mean it's
heartbreaking no matter what but when you just hear what good people oh you were through and through yeah and it's
like and I I found a lot that was said about like Bonnie and what she was going through and like people would be like oh
yeah she just spent all her time like sleeping upstairs and like a boyfriend and it's like but then when you really
dive into it you see one every family has [ __ ] going on of course behind the scenes nobody is perfect no they may
look perfect but no family is perfect absolutely and two when you really look into it yeah she was struggling with
depression and anxiety and she was struggling with physical ailments like those nervous muscle spasms she was like
in real pain well that's the thing that people don't realize is that depression often leads to like physical symptoms
chronic fatigue and physical symptoms like it's it's a real thing yeah and that's the thing and it's like and when
you really hear like you start digging a little further and you see people in the
town talking and people who knew this family and like her family and all that you know like our actual family that was
surviving outside of this nuclear family they like they all say she was like the
sweetest woman of course she was there for her kids she loved her kids and she was fighting through what she was
fighting through and it's like yeah it sounds like the shitty thing too is that this was in what year what this was in
the 50s yeah that's what you're saying the 50s so it's it wasn't understood back then expression mental health
struggles yeah it was like she's just being lazy yeah exactly no that's not it right yeah so I just wanted to put that
out there because I saw so many things that were just like herb was this amazing guy which he is but then it was
just like and Bonnie was just sleeping up in bed being a lazy [ __ ] and it's like that's not what that was and it's
also like if herb is this amazing guy clearly he's gonna be drawn to an amazing woman drawn to an amazing gal
you know but unfortunately this would all come to an end in March of 1958 28 year old Richard Dick Hickok which we're
going to call him dick um it was in Kansas State penitentiary in Lansing serving a five-year sentence
just you know for being an [ __ ] um he was actually in there for robbery but it was scary enough to be an [ __ ]
it was during this time period that his cellmate Floyd Wells started telling him
about a large sum of money that was just waiting to be stolen out of a farmer's Home in Holcomb Wells said he had worked
at River Valley Farm in the late 40s and he knew that herb clutter kept ten thousand dollars in cash in a safe in
the home yeah did he no no he did not dick was very interested in this and immediately started thinking about a
plan to get it when he was sprung free oh good now Dick had an unremarkable life essentially he himself was born and
raised on a farm in eastern Kansas and he was born on a farm he knows Farmers lives he's part of the farmers like the
community he's part of all that and he's still gonna go and betray a fellow farmer but
dick was smart and athletic and well-liked growing up um he had been hoping to receive a
scholarship to college through his athletic ability but he didn't get it and so instead of college he went
straight to doing work like you know just odd jobs around the area because he couldn't really get a degree so he was
having trouble he ended up being married and divorced twice already by the age of
28. damn and was truly one of those people who just won't put in the work oh that's good to do it that's a key theme
in the story I'm going to tell you awesome yeah that's it's just I want the end prize but I want it for free yeah it
doesn't work yeah he would do anything to avoid working often it ended up Landing him in jail uh he had also been
in a car accident at one point and he had scars on his face he was a he was like um known as like a pretty good
looking guy growing up and he ended up having a few scars on his face from the accident and everybody said that he was
very angry about that because it ruined his face You're So Vain yeah so enough other criminal entered enter entered the
jail cell with Dick and Floyd wells around this time too and his name was Perry Smith so Smith grew up very poor
in a family where violence and alcoholism were a constant threat over him and his siblings from his parents
okay in 1948 he joined the army and served in the Korean War unfortunately he had not gone to smoke school and had
not maintained any skills to Aid in a job search so when he was honorably discharged in 1952 he was immediately
struggling now he became a Drifter he was often arrested for petty crimes like dick the difference between the two
though and their pension for criminal Behavior was that dick did crimes because he was a lazy [ __ ] who liked
to cause problems right he just did it because he could and because he wanted to Smith did crimes because he was an
[ __ ] but also because he was often desperate in situations some of his crimes were
out of pure desperation and a product of his environment exactly I'm not saying any of this is validating it no it's
just a different motive for the crimes they are both [ __ ] they both did crime because they were [ __ ] but one
of them had a little bit more of a desperation mode at times and the other one was just lazy I think it is
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listen ad free on the Amazon music or wundery app [Music] so it was in 1956 that Smith Perry Smith
was in that jail cell at the State penitentiary in Lansing and that's when he met dick now according to Floyd Wells
dick couldn't stop talking about that safe full of ten thousand dollars at the Clutter farm he was obsessed according
to Wells he said quote as soon as I get out on parole I'm going to find me some Transportation get a hold of Smith and
go to the clutters and see if there's still ten thousand dollars and they're damn safe
and he often boasted about the lengths that he would go to to get it saying he would kill everyone in that house with
no thought just to get the money where are the authorities like this is the reason why we need more air more ears
excuse me in prison yeah like we need this to we need to know about this before it's able to happen exactly like
they're planning what ended up happening literally like at all in prison playing
out while there are police officers and security guards and la de da do all around one unfortunately Wells never
felt like he needed to tell anyone about this because he said he saw dick as a blowhard he was all talk and no walk and
he never thought he was serious about any of his outbursts he was like he was a petty criminal he was a piece of [ __ ]
he was always bragging he was always saying I'm gonna do this I'm gonna do that he's like I didn't think five years
later no of course he was gonna go and really do this thing he's like I thought he was just talking [ __ ] to me in a jail
cell but like rule of thumb if somebody tells you they're gonna commit murder on
an entire family you might want want to tell like at least one person well that's the thing it's like and there's
also the snitch thing he doesn't want to be nice of course but for him saying like I didn't think you'd walk the walk
he's just talking it you know and that's like he is in jail with you though so apparently he does walk some kind of
walk he does walk at times after he talks exactly but unfortunately Wells underestimated dick and he was indeed
obsessed with this score at the Clutter farm he was ready to make real progress on making it happen and he knew that
Perry Smith was the guy to help him make it happen according to Sally geglovitz keglovitz excuse me who looked back into
these crimes and analyzed them in a publication entitled Cold Blood Revisited a look back at An American
Crime she says dick saw something in Smith that he himself didn't have but wanted
she said dick saw quote and he saw in Perry a talent that He knows he didn't possess those of a Natural Born Killer
Jesus so he's saying Smith Perry Smith is has killer blood like he just to to her this is what people saw in him is he
could do it like he could do it and probably not flinch but Dick's gonna be flapping a little bit of a hesitation
here interesting yeah and the thing is Perry also sees something in dick that he doesn't have it himself but would
like to too he sees confidence in dick he thinks dick has the ability to make a move without second guessing it or
hesitating but not make it that move you know what I mean like he may he can make
that move to get us to the farm to get this whole plan going but when it comes down to it it's gonna have to be Perry
Smith who's gonna make that like final the real bad move it's like he sees dick as the one who can really put things
together and has the confidence to be like this is going to work right like jump start the car but then she's gotta
drive but he's got to hit the gas and Perry also weirdly seemed to seek out Dick's approval or validation I feel
like in twos there's always one person who's seeking the others yeah and it makes sense that Perry Smith would be
that one because he grew up seeking validation he's not getting it so he's looking for approval out of somebody
relatable yeah not in this way though I was gonna say not completely but but we get it but yeah yeah so as they obsess
over this Smith's Pearl comes up and he's let out on July 6 1959. no thank you he is required to leave Kansas as a
condition of his parole to him and he does but he stays close by doing odd jobs and waiting for dick to be let out
too he's just like hanging out on the borders game now dick is let out on parole in mid-august of the same year so
he was let out a little early and moved back he moved back in with his parents for a few months
they spoke through letters about the big score that they were destined to steal Smith however was a little worried about
violating parole by returning back to Kansas okay apparently the whole robbery and eventual murder wasn't the issue
just location yeah it's all about location yeah exactly but with a little pushing he agrees and they agreed to me
they agree to meet in Olathe in early November I think it's Olathe I feel like I should look that up I'll pause I'm
gonna look it up guys because I don't want to be yelled at guys it's Olathe I'm really glad I
looked that up she fancy Olathe because I never would have said it that way I'm so glad I looked I looked it up look
at you so nobody has to yell at me I got it right Olathe so they agreed to meet in Olathe in early November so November
14th 1959 Perry Smith and Dick Hickok meet in Olathe as planned they steal a car together and they drove 400 miles to
Garden City in a stolen car yes wow which is just outside of Holcomb Texas Texas Kansas I was like they drove to
Texas no I'm on a different planet photography and I was like is Kansas close to Texas like what's happening I
was like I didn't think it was close I'm confused so they stopped on the way to purchase nylon rope two inch adhesive
tape a small pocket knife and some rubber gloves yep and arrived in Garden City just after midnight there they
stopped at a Phillips 66 to get gas and then they drove the mile or so so to Holcomb when they arrived they drove to
the long dirt road that leads to a River Valley View Farm do they just stopped there at the end
and they were psyching themselves up like we got to do this but then dick [ __ ] his pants when a light came on at a
home nearby and he was like ah we can't do this so he insisted they run back to the car and they did but after a bit
they got the nerve up again and they went to the house so they had a moment where they said we shouldn't do this and
they still did this yeah that tells you everything you need to know and they parked it was wrong exactly they parked
their car near a side entrance to the home office and this is where they mistakenly believe that ten thousand
dollars would be in a safe in there there were plenty of times during this entire thing where they could have
stopped yeah they could have stopped about a hundred times and they didn't so just putting putting that out there now
Smith and dick just walk right into the Clutter home it was unlocked and they have flashlights and weapons
dick has a large hunting knife and Smith has a shotgun so already we can see this
is not just a robbery they are very prepared to do a lot more than Rob these people absolutely and for them to claim
anything different is [ __ ] in my opinion yeah why would you need a gun and a knife a gun and knife why did you
buy nylon rope adhesive tape why'd you buy any of that show ridiculous they searched the small home office and they
find no it's safe where Wells had said it would be behind the desk uh it's nowhere to be found and also Wells
described this luxurious office with like clear evidence that these people were flush with cash and instead
this office is pretty small and modest nothing like he described is he thinking of like a different family entirely or
do you think he was just telling Tales I think he was just stupid to be honest I
think he was stupid he was telling Tales I think he exaggerated and I think he also forgot
all right but they are pissed when they see that there is no safe especially dick who is not going to leave without
money he's been banking on this for years exactly it's all he had thought about for years so they walk right into
herb and Bonnie's bedroom and wake him up with a flash beam flashlight beam to his eyes oh my God he awakens and is
obviously startled now I think what happened was Bonnie might have been in another bedroom at this night because
sometimes she would have to sleep in a separate bed because of the pain she was going through okay it would keep her
awake and she didn't want to keep her awake oh so sometimes she would go sleep in a different bed yeah this happened to
be one of those nights I believe some sources say they she was in the other room some say she wasn't I saw more that
said she was outside of the room okay and so herb is awakened by a flashlight in his eyes he's obviously startled and
when they declare why they're in his home he tells them there is no safe and he's like there's no valuables or cash
in my home whoever told you that is mistaken oh God he and also he almost always paid for everything with a check
and everyone in town knew that like you could ask anybody in this town and they would have told you he uses a check he
doesn't use cash so he tells the murders this and the murderer is this and he's like I'll
happily write you a check and I'll give you whatever cash we may be able to find
in this house in somebody's wallet or something like you can have all of that right and again don't have ten thousand
dollars for you and he's like but I'll write you a check for as much as I can and you can take it out of here and he
said just please leave the rest of my family alone oh my God the fact that that that could have happened yeah like
he was willing to just be like like look away give him a check get on your way you have a flashlight beam in my eyes I
can't see you anyways that alone tells you that they were not just here for the money because they were here for the
thrill of it yeah they could have just taken it but instead they wake up every member of the Clutter family and lock
all four of them in the upstairs bathroom together oh God after they're secured and at one point they literally
hog tied them in the bathroom together so they are all secured and so dick and Perry Smith ransacked the home looking
for cash invaluables that herb just told them weren't there you're not gonna find
it it proved to be true nothing was found of value and now they were even more Angry so they go back to the
bathroom they put tape over all the Clutter family's mouths they hog tie Bonnie herb Nancy and Kenyon herb and
Kenyon are then taken to the basement by dick and he throws herb onto the cement
floor and ties Kenyon to a soil pipe in the corner oh my God so dick then goes upstairs and he ties Nancy to her own
bed post he doesn't put there was no tape found on Nancy's mouth interesting all the
other ones were taped over the mouse weird um she's tagged our own bed post and Bonnie is first left hog tied in the
bathroom but she's later transferred to her bedroom where she's tied to a post as well
um Perry is watching Bonnie left to watch her and at one point he offered her a chair to make her more comfortable
okay to me this is scarier than straight up cruelty I don't know why because we know that
they were ultimately going to kill her anyway that's the compassionate behavior during something this scary is not
comforting no it's scary because you know that's what's going to happen either way and it's precisely why are
you being kind to me if if you don't know what you're going to do brutally murder me you nailed it that's exactly
what it is it's like you know what you're like I know what your plan is why are you even bothering like that's weird
it's like a like a devil angel yeah it's very strange now weirdly Smith shows some of this strange almost
compassionate behavior during their ordeal in the beginning later he changes that and he's without a doubt the more
violent of the pair to begin with so that's why it's even weirder that he's being the one that's compassionate dick
is a blowhard dick is a blowhard like he's probably the one yelling and screaming and trying to scare everybody
like an [ __ ] but Perry Smith is actually violent and scary you know what though that's I think that's what makes
it scarier it's like a weird comparison but it's like when your dad is like hey stop yeah you don't stop and he's like
cut it out and you don't cut it out and he [ __ ] blows up and yeah cut the [ __ ] like it's like loses it and you're
like oh my gosh it's like that you know yeah that's true and sometimes it's scary I've to me it's
scarier when someone is measured and calm in their Terror then like so anybody can yell and scream and flip out
right it takes a lot to be that measured calm and still be terrifying at the same
time it's like animalistic in a way yeah it's like how uh like an animal will get
quiet and kind of hunker down before it it stretches itself at you yeah you know
is that like a cornered animal exactly it's yeah it's wild no Perry Smith even uh notices that herb is cold on the
cement floor because it's in the winter yeah and so he places big pieces of cardboard beneath him to comfort him
what the then Kenyan is complete he's saying that his bindings are cutting off his circulation and he was like can you
please just loosen them and Perry Smith removes them and then brings Kenyon to a
sofa where he ties him looser and provides him a pillow under his head remember there was no way they didn't
intend to kill these people from the jump in my opinion yeah so this to me like we were saying is almost crueler
than just being cold yeah it's like you're giving people hope here that they can survive this do you think there was
like some weird part of him that was struggling internally whether he was going to or not
I almost think I'm wondering if he found and I was just in this because this whole thing lasted like two hours wow
where they were just in complete Terror not having any idea what was going to happen
I to me the fact that it lasted for two hours and then How It Ends I think Smith
was not really caring about these people or their comfort or their lives or anything I kind of think in this maybe
this is just me this is my analysis of the situation I think he was finding some kind of amusement out of the faux
show of I could see that compassion I think I think he wanted to be seen as the nicer of the two they were almost
doing a good cop bad cop thing uh-huh and I think Perry Smith was like well this is fun I can just pretend to be a
nice person well because it's almost more torturous exactly I can give these people hope and then I can snuff it out
at the last second to me that's what it looks like yeah but who knows he was a very complicated individual later so
like who really knows but after the two hours of Terror Smith insists this is why I think that what I just said it was
Smith Perry Smith who insisted they killed that dick used the hunting knife that he brought with him to kill herb
clutter not even the gun and he even teased him about being too chicken to scary out the plan that he had
supposedly come ready to carry out so that's why I think that Smith wasn't actually having any moments of
compassion I think it was Amusement I could I could yeah yeah I think it was just passing the time just making it
worse that's real weird now after dick hesitated Smith takes the hunting knife out of
Dick's hands and he slits Herb's throat with it oh my God then he shoots herb in
the head with the shotgun at close range there was no need no there was no need just he wanted to do that now remember
too Kenyon is right there all of this oh was this the sofa was in the basement yeah there was a sofa in
the basement I see I see yeah so he saw or at the very least heard all of this oh my now Kenyan was killed second by a
shotgun blast to the head while laying on the couch with a pillow under his head that's where he was found and then
you know obviously Nancy and you can hear the shock upstairs oh my God they then went to Nancy and shot her as she
was like tied to her bed post that's where she was found and then they went to Bonnie and as they did this each time
they would shoot one of them they collected the spent shotgun shells because they thought they were smart and
they thought that would help them get away with it so herb was the only one who they used the knife on and the rest
of them were shot that's interesting yeah and they were shot with a shotgun at very close range all in the face or
head so it was very brutal like very brutal and as if we needed more proof of this Paris callus in monstrous ways
Smith Perry Smith later told the jury at his trial quote it was like picking off
Targets in a shooting gallery oh was it yeah it wasn't like ending a family's life yeah lives literally like children
now after terrorizing and murdering the entire clutter family in the home dick and Smith left with kenyon's portable
transistor radio his pair of binoculars and the forty dollars that they got from
Herb's wallet wow and that's it wow they killed that entire family who was in the
home that night for forty dollars a transistor radio and a pair of binoculars it's interesting that they
didn't write a check yeah they probably couldn't find the checks probably either and they're too stupid
probably but they drive to the county line they pulled over to clean themselves up and they used water from
the car radiator to clean the blood off their hands and the gun and then Perry Smith dug a hole on the side of the
highway where he buried the knife the spent shotgun shells the tape and the Rope
yeah it just goes back to life as as usual oh yeah and eventually they didn't even leave the knife there the knife was
found later at Dick's farm so they must have taken it yeah now Susan Kidwell always attended church with the Clutter
family on Sunday she was just a family friend a child a family friend but this Sunday the 15th they didn't arrive to
pick her up they didn't call so she was concerned immediately with this weird change of behavior and she tried calling
them several times but there was no answer at the house so she and her friend Nancy ewalt convinced Nancy's
father Clarence to drive the girls over to the Clutter farm and just check on what was going on yeah now right away it
was clear something was off when they arrived they saw that all the car the car was still there but the house was
quiet and dark so Clarence put the car in park but Susan was nervous and hesitant to get
out and go into the door because she was like something's off yeah she sometimes
you could just feel it yeah and she knew it and later she would tell Truman Capote when he came to talk to people in
this community about the crimes she said quote I was frightened I don't know why
because it never occurred to me well something like that just doesn't like why would you ever think no she was
actually hoping the dad would just go into the home but he'd been working outside that morning and his boots were
covered in mud so he didn't want to go in so he was I don't he was like I don't want to track mud all over their house
so Susan and Nancy were like fine we'll go in oh God and they went around the kitchen door which was unlocked and they
knew it would be because that was normal for the clutters and most people around
the area at the time they never locked their doors yeah it's a small quiet especially during the day but from the
moment the two girls entered the entered the home they said they could just feel
it something was off and they said there was no breakfast remnants not even signs
that anyone had woken up no dishes nothing and that was very unusual this wasn't like this Lively bustling family
right then they noticed Nancy's purse it was lying on the kitchen floor and it was open like someone had gone
through it and then thrown it back down on the floor so they called for Nancy and they started up the stairs
they saw her bedroom door slightly ajar and they went in blindly oh now Susan later told Truman Capote I don't
remember screaming Nancy says I did screamed and screamed I only remember Nancy's teddy bear staring at me and
Nancy and running oh my God yeah Nancy had been still in her in her bed dressed in her nightgown
she was bound with her hands and feet with cords torn from her curtains and her face was unrecognizable from a
shotgun blast at close range blood had spattered all over the room the walls the bed the floor it was a horror show
that these two girls walked in on and their friend yeah Now by this time her her father Clarence was actually
thinking twice about sending the girls into the home alone and felt bad yeah so he had gotten out of the car and was
walking towards the house and he heard because he was gonna go in there he heard them screaming and then saw them
running through the kitchen door and back outside so they told them what they found and he went into check he found
the same thing and at this point he had only found Nancy they didn't even know that everybody else was in there and
they called the sheriff this was not a normal or run-of-the-mill crime scene especially not for the
county sheriff's office in Holcomb Kansas I would not think so so Finney County Kansas uh excuse me so Finney
County Sheriff Earl Robinson called in his friend Alvin Dewey at the Kansas Bureau of Investigation the kbi okay and
asked for assistance because this was big so as they went through the home they found Nancy as she was described
and they also found Bonnie with a shotgun blast to the head when they went to the basement they found Kenyan still
tied to the sofa with a pillow under his head and a shotgun blast to the face they also found herb clutter he seemed
to have been tortured possibly before being murdered because he was hung from a pipe in the basement oh his throat was
slit and he was shot with the shotgun and that's awful because then you know Kenyan saw yeah or heard it or had some
knowledge of it the killers were on the loose and they had a quadruple homicide of an entire
family on their hands so kbi director Logan Sanford assigned an additional 17 investigators to this case
so they immediately believed that this was a home invasion robbery gone wrong which they were half right yeah sort of
it really was in in the grand scheme of things but they were confused because they had ransacked the home but they had
left an envelope full of cash on Nancy's Bureau that was a plain sight wow it was
cash that was to be donated to church on Sunday huh and somehow I don't know if herb just didn't know about it or forgot
about it in the chaos yeah but they didn't mention it and they didn't find it so no jewelry was taken like herb and
Bonnie's gold wedding bands were still on they're just stupid Bonnie was wearing a diamond ring that she always
wore and it was still on interesting so they shifted from just a random home invasion and then they thought it might
be even a grudge killing where someone had an ax to grind with herb clutter they went after his whole family because
local business people that herb did work or did work with said they did have slight ill will towards
him because of business [ __ ] yeah like you were saying that earlier but since he was bigger in local politics it
wasn't far-fetched to think that someone had targeted him I wonder I was just kind of thinking while you were talking
I wonder if the reason that one they didn't write themselves a check and two they didn't steal any jewelry I mean
it's weird that they didn't take that envelope cash but I guess the jewelry and the the check could be traced back
to them so maybe they were thinking that that's the only thing I could think of but then I was like are they that smart
no because I mean they did collect the spent shells as they went but that's like
I feel like anybody can figure that out yeah I mean most some people don't like a lot I was just gonna say to be honest
a lot of people don't do that so I guess that does show a certain level of criminal know-how I suppose yeah but
yeah it's strange but that makes that's what I thought too when I first thought of the check thing I was like oh that
could be traced back obviously so and then like if you tried to pawn any of the jewelry for money a pawn shop in the
area wouldn't know it's true but then on the other side of that they do end up selling the transistor radio and
binoculars to get money at a pawn shop or like at a they actually end up going to Mexico
yeah jewelry and sold it down there yeah yeah I think they're just dumb I think they're just idiots to be honest
[Music] now they found very little Clues until they went into the uh the basement and
found boot prints and blood on the cardboard where Smith had laid herb on one was a boot print with a diamond
pattern and was clearly showing the cat's paw brand logo none of these boots matched the Clutter family and so they
were sure that they had two killers on the loose because it was a diamond pattern and then one with the cat's paw
brand to logo on it so they determined the murder weapon to be a pump action 12 gauge shotgun they were also able to
determine that the shells used by that particular shotgun were a match for the Shell's investigators were led to four
days later they were found in a stupidly shallow hole that Perry Smith had buried
them in the evening of the murders wow they were easily found because the Sheriff's Office received a report from
a citizen who discovered blood stains on a highway bridge oh my God and there was
only about a quarter of a mile south of the Clutter farm and the person called it in and was like there's blood on the
highway yeah like maybe go look at that now very quickly the murders were top news all over Holcomb of course people
were shocked not only did this not happen in a very safe and quiet community but the Clutter family were
very well liked in a very upstanding family to think they were mute they were murdered in their own home by strangers
was unthinkable so residents started telling reporters that for the first time they bought
locks or they even changed the existing ones they had oh I bet people started thinking like they never had before and
of course rumors began to swirl that didn't help the panic and Chaos people said that at one point a quote one-time
mental patient had must have shown up in town and committed the heinous crime but
obviously no evidence to that yes this is the movie was found yeah exactly now November 19th the funerals
were held at the First Methodist Church in Garden City hundreds of people showed up to pay
their respects in fact it was estimated that over a thousand people wow attended
uh all four clutter clutter family members were in silver closed caskets side by side the kbi and several
officers from the sheriff's department were there because they were friends with herb like this obviously they were
working a case but they were there purely because they were literally friends with him when they walked into
that crime scene they were seeing their friend in a family that they were very close with I can't imagine that and I
can't imagine a funeral with an entire family laid out and caskets next to each other before you like think of a funeral
alone when one person has passed four people yeah like and a family and in that way just layer upon layer of
Devastation it makes me think of like the Villisca ax murders before the hinter kaifek murder ax murders it's
like when a whole family or what one that you covered um one time at first I was like oh my
gosh like I was like did you already cover this but then this one yeah so differently
um the Lawson family yeah that's the one on it was on like Christmas day yep in like
North Carolina yeah yeah and they were farmers right yeah and I think Arthur the older son is the only one that that
survived it's similar it's a similar Vibe of like an entire family right yeah it's awful it really is and again these
kbi agents and the sheriff's department officers were friends to this family and
to Herb like this was awful this sucked um but they were also there to look for any signs of the killer showing up at
the funeral as they sometimes do a lot of times they were laid to rest at Fairview Cemetery
now very shortly after the murders became local news it went National herb was in National politics and also
the crime was just not something seen very often at this time it was heinous and brutal and to have again a whole
family snuffed out in the middle of the night and their home was Unthinkable so Sally keglovitz pointed
out that's I mentioned her publication earlier and we'll link it in the show notes she points out murder of this
magnitude just didn't happen to farm families in the heartland of America no so there was a brief moment November
20th where they thought they may have found their killers they pulled over two men traveling to Hoisington Kansas from
Hoisington Kansas to Louisiana for work these men Marion Livingston and E.L gray
were suspicious in the context of what had happened in the area to be honest when they were pulled over they had a
loaded shotgun and a loaded 32 caliber pistol in the car with them they were questioned but they obviously denied
having anything to do with the Clutter family murders and found to have zero connection with it and they were cleared
uh but when they were pulled over initially and arrested they thought they had their guys oh that sucks now a few
days after the killings Floyd Wells heard the news one afternoon while he was listening to the radio at this
Kansas State Penitentiary he was drawn to it but didn't want to make any kind of connection to it you
know anything about what Dick had said or Dick's Obsession he just heard that the Clutter family had been murdered
Floyd and he was like I don't want to have anything to do with that now looks like his conscience did get the best of
him though because after two weeks of stewing on the very obvious connection he decided he needed to unload his
burden so he made a plan but his plan was to be called out to the warden's office under
a false pretense like he made something happen that he would have to be called there because he doesn't want to be a
snitch he didn't want to be seen as snitching on the other inmates so this way it looked like he was in trouble and
not that he wanted to talk to the warden a whole entire family got murdered and I
know about it like I don't want to look like a snitch it's like they're they're snitching and then there's just being a
moral human yeah being a human with morals but unfortunately he would have got God oh 100 no it's wild to think of
it like he would have got caught because he yeah was like Hey I know the guy that
took out an entire [ __ ] family yep for nothing now once they were alone in the warden's office he told the whole
story about the safe and the Clutter farm and how he had told it all to Dick Hickok and he said quote I distinctly
remember Mr clutter play paying a large Lumber bill and I thought he paid it in cash with money from the safe he didn't
I thought being the keywords the reason I remember is because Mr clutter made the remark to me that evening when we
left his den he'd paid out more than ten thousand dollars that day I described the location of the house I suspect I
talk too much about the money Mr clutter had yeah Hickok talked a lot about Perry
Smith said after after they got out of the joint they could pull some jobs to get enough money for a down payment on a
boat they would run a charter service for deep sea fishermen and eventually make contacts and use the boat to bring
in Narcotics I didn't believe Hickok but he kept talking about it I tried to talk
him out of it said he would get caught but he said he had a plan and after the robbery would kill everyone there and
leave no Witnesses so you're a witness though buddy this was huge this was the first real lead in
the case now they had the names of the two very viable suspects and very likely suspects I'm glad that he ended up
having that change apart now do we and the other agents of the kbi started a huge Manhunt for the two men led by
Harold Nye who was a kbi agent at the time they first went into both of their criminal records and were able to use
those to lead to family members and other known associates to try to track down their movements now on December 9
1959 Nye and a team of kbi Agents arrived at the Hickok family farm with a warrant to search the premises there
they recovered that hunting knife and the Savage pump action shotgun that was the murder weapon of the at the Clutter
family Massacre boom they went into high gear now because Smith and Hickok were nowhere to be found they had only gone
to the they had gotten the warrant searched it found those things they didn't find those two were they in New
Mexico at this point at this point they had no idea that they had fled the [ __ ] country they went to Mexico
after the murders there they stole they sold the stolen car they used to get to the Clutter farm and they sold whatever
items they had stolen from the house and after this they ran out of money pretty
quickly and so they returned to the U.S where they spent some time stealing more
cars and just driving around trying to figure out how to get more money even coming back to Kansas
and stealing more money and cashing bad checks for good measure so they that was
exactly the check thing there we're giving them too much credit for real then they left the state again but on on
December 30th to Las Vegas police officers happened to spot a car that they remembered as matching the
description of a stolen car described in an APB and it was only a couple days earlier there was an APB that went out
about a stolen car so they pulled the car over thinking it would be pretty routine
but it was anything but because inside the car was the real life versions of the mug shots that had been distributed
all over the news like dick Hickok and Perry Smith sat in this 1956 Chevy that was indeed stolen wow so shockingly both
of them were arrested without incident weirdly interesting and brought back to Findlay County Kansas where they were
placed in separate jail cells Hickok pretty quickly tried to pin the entirety of the blame on Smith of course uh four
days later dick Hickok and Perry Smith were charged with four counts of felony murder for the killings of Herbert
Bonnie Nancy and Kenyan clutter now shortly after their arrest news outlets around the country said that
they were caught and everybody could breathe a collective sigh of relief they called Richard weak-faced Richard Hickok
they called Perry Smith runty and that the two broke down under under questioning and confessed to murdering
the Clutter family because they didn't want any Witnesses damn they did indeed confess
um there was a time like I said when Dick decided to pin the entire thing on Perry Smith but they admitted to what
happened they both just look like [ __ ] idiots now trial was set for March 22nd 1960 and judge Roland green
would be presiding he immediately denied the request to have them tried separately which is a boss move in my
opinion they didn't need to get the opportunity to blame to pin the blame on the other one again in a separate trial
I totally see that this is when she gets strange so they kept them separated at all times so they couldn't concoct any
kind of story but Perry Smith was held in what is known as the ladies cell in the
courthouse not real sure why it's called that now 1960 in 1960 The Garden City Sheriff's Office
was contained within the Finney County Courthouse with the sheriff's residents being located next door okay so it was
very near the holding cell where Smith was being held the residents of the sheriff right Earl Robinson the sheriff
already had a home in Holcomb so he didn't want to live in the sheriff's residence so he offered the sheriff's
residence that was next to the Finney County Courthouse to the undersheriff okay it was like right underneath him
yeah his name was Wendell exactly and his wife's name was Josephine or Josie that's nice of him now weirdly because
of the way the cells in the interior walls of the now under Sheriff's residence were placed Smith was able to
see into the home at times what yeah and Josie the wife actually ended up taking
a liking to Perry Smith a man who killed an entire family including a 16 year old girl and a 15
year old boy the sheriff was not happy about this whole thing because At first she was basically like thought he was
like oh like poor him like he's such a sad a sad Tale uh I don't get it poor him poor him he
murdered a whole last family ma'am I don't get that's like I don't get that kind of thing but like that kind of
thing like what even is I mean like I don't get like I'm sure part of this was religious in some way this is a very
religious community I'm sure she was a church-going gal and I'm sure she felt like forgiveness needed to be placed I
feel like murder's like a really big sin chica uh I don't I don't think that that
is for you are correct 100 and that's why I personally don't understand the Forgiveness thing in that sense or being
kind to this kind of person no maybe that's where it came from with her is is all I'm trying to say like I don't
understand it so I think I'm trying to find some kind of oh yeah some kind of like why would you be nice to this man
like I don't understand that I think she was nice to him because she found him to
be attractive it kind of seems like that but who knows I don't get it the sheriff
was not happy with their like really relationship here and insisted she stay away from him but she saw him as a sort
of Lost Boy Who had a rough go in life girly girl yeah they ended up spending a ton of time together she would make his
[ __ ] lunch and eat it with him a girl seek help thank you thank you I'm not even there that's ridiculous he murdered
children and their parents an entire family for no [ __ ] reason whatsoever not that there is a reason but no but
not even a reason for him like for a transistor radio getting forty dollars making a murderer's lunch and eating it
with him guess what I don't get and it's like you are the under sheriff's wife what the [ __ ] is wrong with you you
chose the wrong husband girly yeah like you chose the wrong path or maybe maybe that's why she chose him I don't know
maybe she had a thing for bad boys who knows this is more than just like a bad boy but what's Perry Smith actually
wrote in his journals about how much how kind she was and how like he really liked her of course course she was kind
to a fault in my opinion I mean one might say that's just me no yeah but I don't get her these are all opinions but
like wowie yeah exactly because remember let me just in case you're sitting there
going well yeah Perry Smith had such a sad childhood and like he was he never killed anybody over it these are
cold-blooded killers and they proved it again and again dick Hickok said later that he remembered hearing a gurgling
noise coming from herb after his throat was cut and two police he said about Smith he just cut the hell out of him
so this is who we're talking about exactly that's what he said like I think we can we can get rid of the the turkey
sandwiches with the crust cut off that that poor guy I think we can and his upbringing like again feel bad for the
kid sure totally I feel bad I feel terrible for the kid I don't feel bad for the adult plenty of people have
abusive childhoods and that's [ __ ] awful and you don't get not all of them go out and kill people you don't get to
go murder someone about it no that's anything it should make you want to be a better person in life and like yeah
totally a better parent or yeah to break the cycle now I'm so mad and I know an army friend of Perry Smith's named Don
cullivan visited him in prison and he was told the entire graphic detail of the crime and he said that Smith said
about her but heard the herb clutter excuse me he told him quote as I pulled the trigger there was a flash of blue
light I could see his head split part that's what he told this man as Josie is over there cutting the crust off his
sandwich yeah exactly so just put just make sure we're all on the same page she's like you know if it weren't for
his shitty childhood he would have done that so lost a lost soul but of course Hickok and Smith's attorneys were gun
hoe about getting an insanity defense and in the 1960s the predominant test for sanity in criminal proceedings was
the McNaughton test it was originally established in the 1840s so already it's timely and very relevant to the 60s even
and it was standard but it was a standard by which someone was deemed to be sane during the commission of a
criminal act as long as they understood the act as illegal and or considered by Society to be morally wrong yeah of
course now we know it's outdated and ignores all Nuance of psychology and emotional state during criminal acts but
whatever so the attorneys Harrison Smith and am Fleming filed a motion for their
clients to undergo a man mental status exam which is pretty normal yeah the court appointed three General
Practitioners John O Austin MD R.J Maxfield MD and gust H Nelson MD gust or Goose I'm not really sure how you would
say I feel like Goose goose to Nelson they performed the evaluation they all said that both killers were
sane at the time of committing the ACT uh but I guess it's kind of important to note that at this time Kansas law
apparently only allowed the evaluation to be submitted as either yes they are sane or no they are not so any we you
don't get any kind of insight or any kind of nuance to any of this just yep they were saying it's just like Circle
yes or Circle no literally yeah like that's literally what it was it was yes or no yeah the end colors no Nuance no
psychology nothing behind it just an interesting little thing but they were same yeah so weirdly this trial was
short and uneventful considering how huge this case was I mean they had the murder weapons taken from Hickox Farm
boots matching the prince found in blood on the cardboard in the Clutter house basement next to Herb's body and also
the other items they had found buried next to the highway also both of them confessed they did it verbally but not
written but neither one of them were denying what they did or how they did it so it was pretty much a slim junk so of
course it was going to be pretty short and sweet right the prosecution began their opening statements by describing
in graphic detail how they methodically tortured psychologically and physically and murdered the entire clutter family
and reminded them all that they had about a million chances to stop and leave these people alive but they chose
to keep going further and further exactly in fact they pointed to the fact that when the light came on before they
even entered the house they considered leaving and they didn't this really hammered in the idea that this was
intentional murder and not just a robbery gone wrong yeah and it didn't go wrong they woke herb up
they said where's your safe he said I don't have one of those do you want to check that's as good as a robbery can go
I in my opinion like oh no I don't have a safe you're mistaken I'll just give you money right like that's not a
robbery gone wrong if you're going in there for the Soul's sake of robbing you'd say yeah I'll take that check bye
like don't say anything or I'll kill your whole family bye like I'm pretty sure he would have been like to do that
yeah don't do that so the second day of the trial was reserved for a trip to the
Clutter home to this crime scene during which the jury was given a tour of the entire thing and they could ask
questions they were shown things the Press spoke to the killers families during the trial and it gave a little
insight into the reality of these kind of crimes and the Myriad of people they affect even past the first degree
victims in the case which a lot of people don't think about when asked for comment about his son's prospects with
the jury Walter Hickox said to a reporter they'll both get the Rope and that was his dad which is like sad
and this was um dick hickok's dad who like they weren't abusive right exactly and he's probably just like why didn't
they're like turned out this way yeah and they were in very frail house Health his parents Dick's parents and um they
were at the courtroom every single day for the trial they maintained their son's innocence from the very beginning
they really just had to for their own it was just hope in fact his dad said dick
didn't do the killing he told me that the first time I saw him he had nothing to do with it so he's just going by like
he my son told me he didn't do it right now interestingly it was these kinds of comments and the sight of Dick's frail
parents being so distraught that their son could have possibly done this that made Perry Smith actually do another
weird thing for a cold-blooded killer he attempted to recant his confession but not saying he didn't do it he recanted
the part where he claimed that he and Hickok Had Each killed two members of the Clutter family he now wanted to say
that he killed them all interesting the judge denied his attempt to recant and later Smith said he only attempted to do
that because he didn't want Dick's parents to quote go to their graves thinking their son was a killer it's
weird because he does have some level of compassion if you're willing to to go away for your entire life and like when
you know full well that this other person had just as much as a hand of it in the in that than you did excuse me
like that's a level of compassion yeah and why could you not look at that family and have that same compassion
that's the thing that's where my my it does not compute for me because I and I also think back and I'm like okay so
Josie the undersheriff's wife I'm like maybe that's the kind of [ __ ] she was hearing and that's the kind of [ __ ] she
was seeing and it was bending her mind a little bit to be like could this guy have done this you know what I mean like
he seems so like I mean these are like people in Kansas in the 1950s yeah this is a woman's people a woman in Kansas in
the 1950s she's not being fed the kind of education that we are now and it's like you know what I mean so it's like
she's she's like a good church going you know a housewife right she's not like it
worldly it's like so she's hearing this guy be like saying these kind of things you know I mean which I'm sure he was
able to say some things that sounded very compassionate I'm very empathetic and maybe that's why she was drawn to to
be kind to him yeah no you're not I guess I'm trying to find some kind of way around that but
I think he was very good at showing those kind of things but I'm I'm just having trouble with the like what do you
what are you feeling what are you really feeling like do you do you feel that way
you have compassion for this guy's elderly parents so what the what the [ __ ] like how is it
how does it only go that far I don't know if it's like he had Compassion maybe it was like more compassion for
dick because his parents were struggling and then maybe the reason why he was able to kill the Clutter family is
because like that family represented everything he didn't have yeah maybe I don't know I'm
sure there's some deep psychology involved in this but it's a very interesting he's interested he's a
dichotomy for sure very much is [Music] now on the final day of testimonies the prosecution called Floyd Wells to the
stand oh [ __ ] Wells told the jury all about the information he had given Hickok about the wealthy clutter family
and the safe and said he initially assumed dick was just going to apply for a job at the Clutter farm when he was
released yeah which I'm like didn't know you didn't but he said about two weeks before he was scheduled to be released
that's when Dick started talking about robbing the family to buy the boat so he was like At first I thought he just
wanted a job Maybe who knows but then he admitted a couple of weeks before that's when he really
went into high gear saying he was going to rob them and I didn't know what to do
and the prosecution asked Wells if Hickok made it known that he intended to commit some kind of act of violence
along with this and Wells said quote he told me he'd tie them up Rob them and kill them boom boom
so in a desperate move dick Hickok released a handwritten note to the Press and he got it there through his mother
his mother delivered it to the press and in that letter it said that Wells had been in on the plan all along I believe
that and he said Wells made a diagram of the Clutter home and how to get to it and the note said if the job amounted to
five thousand dollars Wells was to get one thousand dollars I mean that's the thing how would they have gotten there
in the first place I think that too like but I know he definitely had some involvement in it I don't know when he
was set to be released that's the only thing um that I'm like when was he getting out
of jail but maybe it was just that like maybe he thought he'd get out of jail early and if he did he'd be a full part
of the plan but because he gave them the diagram and the information in the first
place he was due to some kind of cut yeah it's a strange but then I'm like but I don't believe dick either I don't
believe dick but just based on the fact that he told Wells told him that the Clutter family had this money in the
first place well and it's also I mean I think this was kind of a lot of this what he says is a lie a lot of what dick
says is lies yeah he the death penalty was on the table yeah and he really didn't want to die of course and I think
he was really doing Hail Mary's at the end to try to get anything and I think he was pissed when Floyd Wells got on
that stand and said that yeah it absolutely could be true but I'm more inclined to say that dick is a lying
sack of [ __ ] I but I think I believe that Wells had at least more to do with this than just the information of they
had that money yeah oh I think he gave him a ton of information about the farm about everything
I think he gave him all that stuff and I think but I don't know how far that went
and who knows yeah that's the thing now a few days later dick also gave the Topeka daily Capital News Journal a
journalist from that his name was Ron cull he gave him a statement from that in the paper ran it on the day of the
day after wells's testimony and in this it said and this is from dick Hickok quote I'm sorry for what I did but I can
undo what's already been done but if killing me would bring them back I'd just walk up there right now and tell
them to go ahead but it won't he also said he wasn't getting a fair trial he said kbi agents lied on the
stand about his confession in Las Vegas and he said quote they got the confession by whipping me on my head
with their fists and blackjacks for about an hour well you also tormented a man before you killed him every word of
this letter is a lie yeah he lied like he's a lying sack of [ __ ] I bet it was just to avoid the death penalty that's
all it was he was interviewed a ton of time since he returned from Las Vegas right after he returned from Las Vegas
not one Bruce was seen on him not one bit of evidence of a beating could be seen and one that he claimed he received
for over an hour with blackjacks and fists he would be black and purple and blue yeah like not one Bruce was found
on this man's body no none now it was also definitely being put out there to Aid their appeals later all of
this was because following their conviction obviously dick and Smith apply filed an appeal claiming you know
their rights had been violated the whole being denied separate trials things the
judge refused to allow evidence you know of the psychiatric evaluations that would have helped them all the [ __ ]
that's like [ __ ] off y'all we found the hunting knife in your possession y'all
you confessed to it like like you confess the trial concluded on March 29 1960 the
jury deliberated for 40 minutes and found both men guilty of the crimes I bet they both exhausted their appeals
and finally they were sentenced to die by hanging on Wednesday April 14 1965. on that day their attorneys made
one last day last day plea for Mercy to the U.S Supreme Court on their behalf um it basically it got denied and denied
and denied right up until the last second um and Justice Byron it was Justice Byron white who oversaw the 10th
District U.S circuit court at the time he was the one who denied the final stay of execution and declined any comment
about it just denied bye I feel like this doesn't need a comment no do you see what happened on that farm well it's
like denied that's all you need to do like I picture him like stamping denied now a few minutes after midnight on
April 14th 19 165 dick Hickok and Perry Smith were hanged at the Kansas State penitentiary in Lansing for his final
words Perry Smith took the opportunity to condemn capital punishment completely he said
I think it is a hell of a thing that a life has to be taken in this manner go [ __ ] yourself I say this especially
because there's a great deal I could have offered Society I certainly think capital punishment is legally and
morally wrong yep just like murder oh you had stuff you could have offered offered society that whole family was
offering Society a [ __ ] ton and yeah exactly why did you never offer Society anything in the how old was he like 29
30 yeah he was like you had plenty of years to offer Society a bunch of [ __ ] and all you did was steal lie cheat and
kill so go [ __ ] yourself and it's like we're talking about morals right now and
like I said I've said it forever that I'm like leaning more towards like against death penalty and I'm I sat in a
gray area forever but I'm leaning way more on that side of like I don't think it's a great thing but I also think it's
[ __ ] ridiculous for a cold-blooded murderer of an entire family to school just stand up there and be like guys
this is wrong it's like yeah no [ __ ] [ __ ] that's the whole thing is wrong like you're wrong yeah like this whole
thing is wrong you killed an entire family no you can't tell me about morals and ethics and all that [ __ ] and kill an
entire family now dick Hickok said he didn't want to say any final words but then he was like
actually I do at the last second because he's just annoying up until the very end
yeah and in these final moments he said that the kba kbi agents who arrested him
he said that they were like it was their fault this was all on them and then he said you're sending me to a better place
than this and then he shook each of their hands and said goodbye wow so Hickok and Smith were buried on
the prison grounds and several years later there was an expansion of the prison plan so their bodies actually had
to be exhumed and relocated to mount Muncie Cemetery in Leavenworth County and actually Truman Capote purchased
headstones for both men but they were both stolen so the [ __ ] so weird speaking of Truman
Capote in 1958 Capote had the idea to create what he called the first non-fiction
novel in which he was looking to take a real event and turn it into kind of a story now he just couldn't find the
right subject and that is until he saw an article in the November 16 1959 New York Times that talked about a farmer
and his entire family who were murdered in their homes in Holcomb Kansas I don't
know why I keep saying Texas I'm sorry multiple sentence he went to Garden yeah like it sounds the same he went to
Garden City before Hickok and Smith had even been caught and along with his friend
um you might know this name Harper Lee I don't know yeah it doesn't ring as well
that one that one you know I promise a fellow author they began a real investigative Deep dive into the
clutter's lives and horrifically tragic deaths now Capote stuck out like a sore thumb in Kansas
if you look them up I was just gonna do that he was New York High Society even though he was raised in the deep south
ah but he was very much New York High Society he's very like he was very out very
exuberant like you would you would know him in a crowd he looks like a cool guy yeah he was cool so he spent months and
months speaking to everyone in Holcomb it's really spending time getting to know the community around the clutters
and everyone who ever knew them he assured them all that he was planning to write a factual account of the crime and
he wanted it to be from the perspectives of the people in and around Holcomb and
the community he made an impression but apparently when In Cold Blood was finally published in 1965 people in
Holcomb and Garden City were like a little confused uh-oh so in 2009 his friend and author you might know this
name Alan Schwartz great author wrote it is different than what they expected it
is not simply a matter of historical reporting I can imagine that a lot of people who were freaked out by what
happened in the middle of Kansas never understood that so the problem people found with the work was that they felt
it bordered on fiction the Clutter family felt like with all he put into getting to know the clutters and talking
with all of them he didn't put nearly enough of them in the book oh they were not happy and others said he got things
completely wrong which they were like he just fabricated things in fact in 2019 Gary McAvoy and Ronald Nye who was the
son of kbi agent uh Harold and I oh [ __ ] he published a book promoting a bunch of
new theories and really like going against a lot of capote's ideas that were from the book now still there were
many others in Holcomb and Garden City who appreciated the time and consideration that Capote and Harper
paid to the residents there Fielding hands a friend of the Clutter family said quote I think he did the
Family Justice for the things he said about them and what they did for the community
Susan Kidwell who was one of the two girls to discover the bodies she said yeah the book has some factual
inaccuracies and it's definitely like fiction in some parts but she said she had very positive experiences with
Truman Capote as a person she said quote to me he was very nice and very polite and I respected his work I never felt
that he was trying to use us in any way okay and I think that's what the that we're we're such like people sit in that
gray area with it is he went into it saying he wanted to make a non-fiction novel he went into it saying he wanted
to write a story about a real event so he didn't go in there with like total you know being like I'm just going to
straight report this yeah but if you're gonna do a non-fiction novel I don't think it should be about a
murder like I don't think you should choose the event that you should choose should be
one like this because there's just a lot of a lot of stuff in that so if you're gonna do something about a real event
like the Clutter family murders just report on it just write the story of it right if you want to do a a more
narrative fictionalized version maybe just choose an event that doesn't hold such
yeah like that you know what I mean emotions and I truly don't believe in my opinion this is just my opinion I truly
don't believe Truman Capote went in there trying to to [ __ ] people's lives up and it looks like somebody would I I
would hope somebody wouldn't well and it looks like a lot of people who interact
with him said they never had a bad experience with him and he seemed like he was a kind respectful person who
really did want to create something amazing and he did create something amazing the the book itself is amazing
it's like heart-wrenching it's like harrowing it's a lot of things what are the do you know what the parts are that
people feel are fictionalized or or are fiction I think it's just little details
I'm not exactly sure what pieces are okay um I do I do encourage people to read it because I think it's a a very
fascinating book and I think you like it's very well written but I can see why some people are like I'm not into the
creative license yeah it's hard to take creative life license and True Crime and
I don't necessarily think it's something you should do well and I think this was
from what like 65 you know what I mean so this was such a different era such a different era such a different time to
point this out he had never done this before no so that's this would this had never been done of course this was not
gonna go off without a hitch of course not it's the it's the inaugural one of these kind of genres you know like he
created this genre so it's like yeah there's gonna be some hiccups here and from from the looks of it a lot of
people that you hear like I said don't have bad things to say about him as a person
um even if they didn't necessarily like the book yeah that came out of it it was
a person or really him as an investigator no because he he did go out of his way yeah to spend on a [ __ ] ton
of time in Holcomb and talk to everybody he also talked to The Killers like he talked to there was all of that so if
you want to read it or you want to read up on it it's a very interesting story of how the book came to be I see that
there's a a rolling stone article about yeah go take go take a peek at it like read that like just so you can get some
more information about the book and the whole process I think it's a very interesting story behind the actual
bookmaking um but either way in Cold Blood is considered by many to be a masterpiece
of crime reporting in narrative nonfiction all right so it was actually adapted into a feature film in 1967 and
for television in 1966. so the Clutter house and farmland were auctioned off in March of 1960 then sold
again in I think the mid to late 1960s to a Rancher named Bob bird Taurus still flock to Holcomb just to
see the places mentioned in the book but a lot has changed since then I bet um like they they want to go see the house
they want to go see where it all happened isn't it crazy that that's really closer to a hundred years ago
yeah I know isn't that wild it really is crazy most people who are still around from the original crime who are in the
community or knew the family or part of the family they don't really want to speak about it anymore I get that so
don't ask them about it yeah they don't want to talk let those people rest in peace they really some people want
Holcomb to just be left alone and others are like it's fine this happened one I'm
sure they're like okay Holcomb is more than just this tragic that's exactly it yeah but they did memorialize the
Clutter family with a park in Holcomb okay and um in 2009 the Holcomb City Council put up a memorial for them in
town but the memorial only discusses their lives and accomplishments as a family does not talk about their deaths
I think think that's awesome which I think is a really good way of memorializing them yeah is by not even
mentioning what happened everybody knows everybody knows obviously so it's like it's nice that there's a memorial that
is just about who they were as people yeah and who they were to the community and as a family yeah definitely so that
is the terrible story yeah of the Clutter family murders or the In Cold Blood murder says it's sometimes known
truly a heroin case and the more and more you were going through it or like in the beginning I expected to know this
because it include in Cold Blood sounded really familiar to me but then when you
were going through this I actually don't think I've heard of you that's so funny
I don't think so anyway interesting you know what though I'm sure a lot of people like in probably in your age
group yeah and younger but probably they probably don't know about it either because as you just said this is this is
much longer ago than it was when I started like reading about these things right like I started reading about these
things and what like the 20 years ago like the late 1990s early like early 2000s it was 20 years ago much closer to
the 1960s so it's like now that is pretty far removed it is which is really that was that's just like interesting
now to think about how far that is I know and it's weird that we have we obviously have such different
experiences and uh being interested in True Crime like you know so many of those earlier cases that I'm just like
I've never heard of them and I'll be like what you don't know that but then when I actually think about it I'm like
well yeah I guess she doesn't know that because she was like not even born when that was even a yeah yeah but it was
funny because we're only 10 years apart and when you think about it 10 years is not yeah very much but 10 years really
makes all the difference it does it's crazy and that's the that on that and that's the that on that that was I
really liked the way that you told that story so thank you I appreciate that and
go check out that uh like any of the Rolling Stone articles or anything about the book and stuff I I'm sure people
have written like awesome stuff about yeah how they came to be and all that background totally I love about the
Rolling Stone check it out I don't know what it is there's some great ones out there and um Vanity Fair Vanity Fair
yeah they have a good Vanity Fair all right well with all that being said guys we hope that you keep listening and we
hope you keep it weird but not so worthy terrorize an entire family and then talk that the
death penalty is not right yeah don't do that I'm confused [Music] foreign [Music]
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In 1959 the state of Kansas was absolutely shocked to find that one of its most prominent and well-liked families, The Clutters, had been murdered. Richard Hickock and Perry Smith, two convicts that had recently been released from prison were the ones responsible. Both had been told by a fellow inmate while incarcerated that the Clutter family had a large amount of cash stashed in a safe on their property. The two broke into the family home and searched for the safe, they then woke up the family when they couldn't find it, tortured and murdered them one by one. Thank you to exquisite David White for research assistance.

References

Capital Wire Service. 1959. "Two Itinerant Laborers Held for Murder Quiz."

Topeka Daily Capital, November 20.

Capote, Truman. 1965. "In Cold Blood." The New Yorker, September 25.

Cowan, Carole. 2005. "Persons Unknown." New York Times, Jan 23: F6.

Garden City Telegram. 1965. "Last Words Attack Capital Punishment."

Garden City Telegram, April 14: 1.

Gonsalves, Antone. 1984. "25 years later, 'In Cold Blood' murders still haunt." United Press International, November 11.

Greer, Bob. 1959. "Clutter Family Murders." Garden City Telegram, November 16: 1.

Hegeman, Roxana. 2009. "The Stains of In Cold Blood Still Fresh 50 Years Later."

Guelph Mercury, November 10.

Hickock, Richard. 1960. "Spectre of Noose Haunts Prisoner." Topeka Daily Capital, March 25.

Kalbfleisch, Gay. 1959. "Empty Shell Cases, Fatal Shot Found."

Topeka Daily Capital, November 19: 1.

Keglovitts, Sally J. 2004. "In Cold Blood Revisited: A Look Back at an American." Federal Probation: A Journal of Correctional Philosophy and Practice 68 (1).

Kull, Ron. 1960. "Crime Plans Listed." Topeka Daily Capital, 03 24: 1.—. 1960.

"'They'll Both Get the Rope'." Topeka State Journal, March 23: 1.—. 1960. "'Wells Was to Get Cut,' Says Hickock." Topeka State Journal, March 26.

McAvoy, Gary. 2019. And Every Word is True. Bremerton, WA: Literati Editions.New York Times. 1959.

"Wealthy Farmer, 3 of Family Slain." New York Times, November 16: 39.State Journal News Services. 1960.

"Jury Tours Clutter Farm; Death Asked." Topeka State Journal, March 23.

State of Kansas vs. Hickock & Smith. 1961. 363 P.2d 541 (Supreme Court of Kansas, July 8).

Time Magazine. 1960. "Kansas: The Killers." Time Magazine, January 18.

Topeka State Journal. 1965. "Clutter Case Reporter Finds Relief in End of Long Story." Topeka State Journal, April 14: 1.

United Press International. 1959. "Fear, Grief Follow Murder Shock." Topeka Daily Capital, November 16: 1.

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the Clutter family murders and the impact of Truman Capote's In Cold Blood.

Key points

The Clutter Family Murders. Exploring the tragic and senseless murders of the Clutter family in Kansas.
Bonnie Clutter's Struggles. Bonnie Clutter battled severe depression and anxiety while being a devoted mother.
The Killers' Backgrounds. Richard Hickok and Perry Smith had troubled pasts that led to their criminal actions.
The Meeting of Dick and Perry. Perry Smith and Dick Hickok meet to plan their crime, stealing a car and heading to Holcomb.
The Brutal Murders. The Clutter family is brutally murdered in their home by Dick and Perry.
The Discovery. Susan and Nancy find the Clutter family in a horrific scene.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

This is your fault as my mother in True Crimes!

Jokingly blaming a parent for introducing true crime.

5:19WatchFeb 7, 2023

Tension

85/ 100High tension

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