The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 2 | Forensic Files

Welcome to Off the Record. How do you get rid of a high? Mhm. I don't know. How do you get rid of a high?
Heyo. Eat some broccoli. What is there a Is there a method? I don't I don't know.
it's just drink water, right? I don't know, but that's the uh that was the first standout
thing for me in episode two. I know we heard it in the Serial podcast. Yeah. But the the
reminder of Adnan asking, "How do you get rid of a high?" because now he's stoned
and he's learning that he's going to have to talk to the police or investigators.
Yeah. And but it also makes you wonder, "What are they smoking? Is it not the use? You know what I
mean?" Mhm. Because if if I you know, back in the day or even now, if I have a couple drinks
and you know, maybe I have a couple drinks and then I find out through a text or through a email that
the phone meeting is going to happen tonight. Mhm. Okay, well, I know that if I drink a
little bit, maybe I need to get some food into my system, have a couple waters, whatever I need to do to get
back to professional status for the meeting. So, I just wonder, were they smoking
more of something or a different kind of smoking? You know, was it a different type of weed?
Well, even if it's the same um you know, I think this is just a a panic reaction to a trigger in his brain
that's like, "Oh, I I need to talk to I am going to have to talk to an investigator at some point. And it could
be very soon. And I think he's just like, you know, throwing out a thought, throwing out a
question that maybe he's asking himself inside internally at first and then it just pops out of his mouth. How do you
get rid of a high? Because now I'm extremely uncomfortable. It just seems like such an amateur thing to say
though. Or ask out loud. Well, and I think that's the response of the friends that were around it or the people he was
hanging out with that there's a lot of indication to suggest that he wasn't necessarily friends with the people that
he was hanging out in that particular moment. Um but and I believe it's one of the um
one of the girls that he's hanging out with that evening that amongst the group of people that is
kind of like what's up with this dude? Yeah, what's up What's up with that? Right, he's at Ooh wee.
Yeah, how do you get rid of a high? And then, you know, she's like probably thinking, "I'm pretty high. This is
pretty good. Why would you want to get rid of this?" Right, but this is also somebody that
doesn't know him. Uh what was your overall take of part two? Oh, I really liked part two. I I
mean, I liked part one as well, but for me I thought that it was um a little more fast-paced than part one.
And it was really kind of diving into some portions of the of the case. Mhm. Um it could have been a little easier to
Well, I was going to say easier to follow along, but that wasn't the issue. I think there
where where it may have lacked would have been the argument for or against or comparing
things that they knew or were presenting about the case to other Right. other things that could have actually been
going on. So, they're kind of giving you pieces of the story and and almost in a
way as detectives are finding this information out. But then that's really kind of the
big question that I think that they're circling around for a while is did Jay offer up this information? Did
he provide detectives with this information or were they leading him along the way? Were they Were they
you know, suggesting things to him? I I thought as far as the entertainment value
and also I think because we haven't heard enough of Hae's side that the episode one part one was better than I
thought two was. Oh, yeah. Um Yeah, I agree. I Now that you mention Hae's side, that that was certainly an
interesting angle that that's just not been a part of the the case. Right. And then and I think Jay's timeline and then
Jay's um interviews have really been focused on and micro-focused on. And and so now we do it again, but I almost feel
like as far as the documentarians go they didn't do it so clearly. They It was almost a captain answer. Like now
we're 15 minutes into the answer, we don't know where this is going. You think that Serial, the podcast, was more
clear when analyzing Jay's story? Mhm. Maybe, but I just think in a whole whole like I mean again, like I said, if
you if you listen to Serial and you thought you knew anything about the case, well you're just talking about 10%
15%. You have the outline. You have to really dive into and that's where Undisclosed and and people like Bob, our
buddy Bob Ruff, dove into these very tiny inconsistencies. And I just think there
would there was a way to point these out. There's also going to be a a thing that I bring up,
which I think if you're heavily into this case, you would have got you would have seen that happen in this episode,
but I don't know if it would be clear to the average viewer. Okay. So, when when they go through the
timeline, they keep talking about and I I just want to bring up my notes to have this
make a lot of sense. Sure. But, the main thing is that we we're going through this timeline and they're they're
stating, the police are, that they talked to Jen, Jay's friend, on the 26th. Mhm. She's not completely honest.
When she knew she was going to have to go talk to the police, Jay said, "Hey, say whatever you have to say.
You know, keep yourself clean. Mhm. Uh and then tell them to come talk to me." So, then come the 27th, Jen then goes
back and talks to the cops, but now this point she has a lawyer. She's a little more
uh forthcoming with what she knows, and then the cops basically say, "Hey, we we
talked to Jay on the 28th. Mhm. We interviewed him. Then, after we interview him, we go find
Hae's car because Jay told us where it was at." And then on the 28th, they arrest Adnan.
Mhm. So, that's the timeline that they're presenting, and one of the things that uh a private investigator
talks about is I believe it was like the 20 20th, 21st, and 22nd, where Jay missed work Mhm. because he
was talking to the police, or this is what he claims. Now, the police's timeline does does not line
up then if what the private investigator is saying is true. Right. So, you can't
sit there and say, "Well, that's the first time we talked to Jay was the 28th." Um so, I think that part was pretty
unclear because I think that's kind of a bombshell. When the police are saying, "Hey, we
talked to Jen." I always I always wondered, why did they talk to Jen first? If they have Adnan's cell phone records,
and they have you you know, the first call would have been to Jay. So, wouldn't they reach out to Jay
first? And maybe there was not questioning, but maybe there was rolling up to his work or something.
But, I mean, he uses his uses that as an excuse on why he wasn't at work. Mhm. So, I thought that could have been a
little more clear that, "Hey, this is a this is strange." Yeah, so regarding them talking to Jen first, if
if in fact they did. Um Well, based off of what they're saying is they did. Would they have spoke to her first
because talking to Adnan on the phone, cuz it correct me if I'm I'm wrong on any of
this. You know the case a little better than I do. But, having spoke to Adnan on the phone,
investigators looking for this missing girl, would they have learned from that phone
call that he was at Jen's that evening? Or at some point on that day? Well, I think they knew that from the phone
records. Okay. Because there was a there was a phone call that was made to Jen. If you whether whether or not you
believe Jay, believe what Jay is saying at the end of the the night in questioning, the 13th of January,
that after they're done, basically what he's stating is that Adnan killed Hae, showed the body to him. Mhm. They go to
Lincoln Park. They bury the body in a shallow grave. And then they throw a bunch of stuff
away. And then Jay took or Adnan drives Jay home. And then that's when Jen comes and picks him up.
Mhm. Now, Jen's story is, "Why didn't pick him up at his house? I picked him up at a mall."
Mhm. But so so that's the uh that that's his his story. But what we have is that Jay called Jen
at some point or Adnan called Jen at some point. So we have those in the phone records. So
that's obviously why they're talking to her. Right. And I think people sometimes get that confused like, "Well,
how would they know to talk to Jen?" It's an easy trail. It's an easy trail to her. And and the
thing that gets a little convoluted is that it seems to be that likely Jay was the one that called Jen but but using
Adnan's phone. Right. So in reviewing the phone records or the phone information, investigators don't know
who's placing the call but they know where it's coming from Adnan's phone and it's going to this individual. So let's
go interview her. Right. And all they had to do and a lot of people make a big deal of how
they they creep the the cops creep up on Jen and they knew her name. And knew stuff about her. Well, what they did was
they took the phone records and then they went back and said, "Whose number is this?"
Okay, that's Here's Jen's, you know, number and let's uh I I think you know, to let's do a little
investigation before we roll up on her. Right. So and um it's a made a big deal that these people
were almost like waiting to talk to the cops. Like the cops make a bigger deal about that. Like we rolled
up on her and she she wasn't too shocked that we were there. Mhm. So. I don't know how big of a deal that is
though. Right. No, I I mean I don't That's really just the police perception though, too. It might not be
the case at all. It might Jen may have been a little bit surprised uh that she was talking to them at that exact
moment. One thing that I'm going to point out that I thought was a little strange was after Jay does his once he's
on the stand, he leaves the stand and they showed that clip. And I just kind of thought it was odd
like to me, if this guy's walking past me, he has to walk from left to right of me
past the desk I'm sitting at. I'm on trial. Mhm. I'm probably following him a little bit with my eyes.
And I notice if you look at Adnan, it's almost like he didn't even like almost on purpose like let me try
to act like this guy's not even there. Mhm. So he just kind of keeps looking straight, never kind of follows him with
his eyes. Which I think if I just listen to somebody tell a story that I'm saying is
complete [ __ ] Mhm. I'd have a hard time not staring that guy down a little bit.
There was one case that I was looking at a few months ago and I don't recall the
the um person on trial's name, but there was somebody on the stand that said he was at a certain
certain place at a certain time, which would have made him look very likely as the guilty murderer Right. of the victim
and he lost it. He the person gives their testimony and right at the end, before they can
finish, he, the defendant, jumps up out of his chair and he's screaming at the judge and the jury and anybody
that's willing to listen that these are all lies. I'm innocent. That person is lying. I wasn't there. I don't know what
they're talking about, how they came up with this. He goes on and on about you know, this loud rant and he and he
I only heard the audio. I didn't see cuz this is from an old trial. I don't think
that there was a video camera present. If there was, I've not seen the video footage.
He sounds incredibly aggressive and incredibly angry and the problem that that presented for him
was the judge and the jury are then able to go well, this dude looks like he could get
violent pretty easily because now he's jumping up and shouting in this courtroom and he's scared all of us a
little bit. Now it's not too hard to believe that he he may have murdered this woman and then
unfortunately, he was wrongfully convicted and it was years before his conviction was overturned, but it's one
of those it's one of those strange situations where we hear often that that people will will
have these predetermined notions on how someone is supposed to react or or defend themselves.
Right. And I think that's the problem is because you take this latest clip of R Kelly
jumping up in the interview screaming, "I'm fighting for my life. You guys are trying to kill me. I'm
fighting for my life. You're taking everything from me." And he's like crying and there's a part of me that is
like look, Adnan didn't act like this at all. Mhm. Like look, first of all, let's get
out of the way. R Kelly is 100% guilty Right. of whatever they charge him with. Um But but But but you wonder, you go,
Adnan doesn't act like this. He's a little more calm. Why wouldn't he be more angry? If he was innocent, he'd be
more angry. But you can't and I think that's what as true crime becomes more popular and
people study it more often, you have to step back and say, just because I would do something doesn't
mean that because a person didn't do that, again, like I said, I find it a little strange that Adnan didn't stare
Jay down. Mhm. I don't know if that points to him being innocent or guilty. I'm just saying that's something I
noticed and that's what we're here to talk about, is what I noticed and what you notice. Right. So,
again, I think we need to be more intelligent as we're looking at these things and so many
times, especially with the Adnan case, I mean, I've I've talked about this case more than probably any other case
and when we've gone to Crime Cons and meet up events, gotten to long discussions and I think
some people just they start assuming things for one and then they start jumping to conclusions where
with this case, I'm I've been trying to slow my roll a little bit. Mhm. Well, and and that's the thing. You can
say all day and night how you think someone should behave or react to something, but as I just pointed out
with the with that murder trial, that reaction, the reaction that some people say that you should have when
you're accused of something that you are absolutely 100% innocent of, Right. by by jumping up and defending himself in
court, he he hung himself in in you know, in a way in front of the jury and in front of the judge who now goes,
"Well, this guy is Right. know, he's lost his grip, you know, he he can't can't even hold it
together during these court proceedings. Who knows how angry he got at the victim
and and killed her?" Right. And and to stay on my point about the open-mindedness,
um you know, the thing that I was really taken away from last night was and and the argument that you the
here's the argument is Jay's a liar. So, we see that time and time again his story doesn't line up.
His story doesn't even line up with the other witnesses. Sometimes his story doesn't even line up
with the story he told before. Right. And it's changing. It's kind of um and just like his friend said, "Look, if
it if they're coming to point the finger at you, he'll throw you under the bus."
Mhm. And Jay's a storyteller and all these things. Look, that's true. We know that.
But, if I lie out of there's 10 points of evidence, right? If I lie about nine of them, but the
10th one is that Adnan killed Hae, and that is the truth, Mhm. and that doesn't change,
is he still a liar? Yes. Is he still telling you pieces of truth? Possibly. And I think that's one the
initial detective, which I think is like D'Souza, I want to say. Um he was the original detective when Hae
was missing. And that's what he kind of was trying to say. Like, yes, you're interviewing this person, you're asking
this person questions. You you possibly could call it an interrogation, but let's just say at
this point it's more of an interview. He's telling you some stuff you know is [ __ ] but he's also telling you some
stuff that you never learned before, that you didn't know. So, it's like then the argument becomes did the cops know
where Hae's car was and they told Jay where it was or did Jay know where it was? Mhm. Now, that doesn't also mean
that doesn't also mean that that he put that car there with Adnan. At some point Jay could have came up on
this car on his own accord. You know what I mean? Through travels. Through driving I mean, that was a thing
at least in my town Friday, Saturday night you jump in a car with one of your buddies and you're going from house to
house kind of hanging out with different buddies. And is it possible that Jay saw the car
during a time like that? So, but the but the broad stroke there is yes, Jay's a liar and we have we know
that. We have evidence of that. But, I also think that we possibly have evidence of him telling the truth at
times. And so, that's where it gets a little fishy. Mhm. Well, and that's been the whole
issue I think with this case is Jay's story. It It always has been and likely always will be. Well, it's very
irresponsible of the police and this is one of the things they didn't put point out. I
mean, just like I said before, Jay's story is that Adnan drops him off at at Jay's house and then Jen comes and picks
up Jay at Jay's house. Jen, the one of their other witnesses says, "No, I picked him up at a mall."
So, right there they're putting people on the stands that have conflicting stories.
And that should be enough to start raising red flags and possibly black flags because that creates reasonable doubt
right away. And so, it it there were so many points of this episode that just hit so hard with me
that this is not a fair trial. Whether you think he's guilty or innocent, this guy did not get a fair
shake. Not when they're putting multiple people on the stands where their stories
don't even line up. And I'd also argue if that they're creating I don't think the cops are creating the
story as much as I thought initially. I think Jay is constantly changing the story, and that probably became
a big uh problem for for uh the prosecution. Mhm. But, to have a situation where you know that Jay
is going to to say something that's different than Jen, you think that they would try to clear up some of those
points. But, I think the cops viewed it as well, it doesn't really matter where he
got picked up at because that's after the crime. Well, to me it does because if your star witnesses' stories don't
even line up, then I can assume that one one of them or both of them are lying. And you also have a a situation where
Jen talks to the cops on the 26th, admits that she's lying, and then says that she's completely truthful on the
27th. I can't believe you. Once we know that you're a liar um as far as the trial goes,
if I assume that you lie about anything, I have to assume And this is this is how
our justice system works. If we know that this guy's a liar, we have to assume um
for the innocence that everything he's saying is lying. Does does does that make sense?
Yeah. Like, that's something that the defense should have actually pointed out in this case. That if we're looking at
this evidence, and we know this person's a liar. But that's not a flaw in the justice
system, that's a flaw in the defense of Adnan Syed. Right, but it it and it's actually a
plus in the justice system because there's whenever we're whenever we're supposed to assume
something, we're supposed to assume it on the side of innocence. And that's the the whole term, you know,
innocent until proven guilty. That's kind of where that comes from because anything So, again, if we know
he's lying about some things, we have to assume that he's a liar, then we have to
assume then if he's not testifying on the behalf or saying that Adnan did this, we don't have a trial.
Cuz we don't have any physical evidence. Mhm. You see what I'm saying? So, that's what this episode to me kept
on going back to is these little points. But now, trying to solve this case and to get to
the truth, I have to be open-minded to the idea of just because he's lying about certain
things or maybe misremembering. Cuz you got to remember there was a long period that she wasn't found.
We're talking about, you know, a time lapse. And so, he's might he might be thinking, "Hey,
she picked she picked me up at my house." And she might be thinking of a different night. Who knows? Mhm. So, I I
don't like to assume that he's a lying lying about everything, but I couldn't tell you which things he which things I
know are true or which ones I know are false. Well, if in fact, you know, a lot of these people in this
circle and Jay's circle would tell us even all these years later that he was shady, that he was a liar,
that he was always telling stories, making things up. He could be wearing a I think they He something like he could
be wearing a green shirt and convince you that it's blue. Right. And you the the troubling thing with Jay
is if he is lying about some small minute detail that doesn't really have anything
to do with the overall statement at the end of the day of Adnan killed Hae Min Lee. Right.
It's it's very difficult. I mean, look, I throughout my life I've I've known of I can think of two or three people
immediately where I knew them for an extensive period of time in my life and they
they were individuals that just seemed to lie about everything and anything to the point where it didn't even make
sense. Like they're you know Right, but if they don't do it in a harmful way, it's
those people in my life I've always just thought of as bullshitters. They're not trying to harm anybody with
the lie. No, I know, but that's why it makes zero sense to even create the lie to begin with.
Right. And one trait that I believe that these people that I'm thinking of shared
is that on a long enough timeline, the things they said they at some point couldn't keep them
straight. It was almost like they were living in a different reality than other people were because Right. I think they
get in a way they confuse themselves. And so Jay may just be, as you kind of pointed
out, may just be confused on some of the smaller details because he just lies all
the time or makes up stories all the time and he and he's he lives a different reality than the
than than the the real world. Right. And I I think the other thing that they didn't hit home enough
which they've talked about in the first part as well as when you have a cover sheet that says here's the cell phone
pings and oh by the way the incoming calls we have to rule all those out. Because the incoming call
that ping uh we we have no evidence that those are correct. At the time, that was the cell phone
ping technology. So, when then the cops then start taking Jay's interviews and testimony and start
having those try to match with incoming call pings Mhm. well, we know that those aren't always
correct. So, I think that makes this story even more [ __ ] Uh but it was the fact that the defen- I
don't believe the defense ever got that cover. No. And if and if they did, they would
have been able to rule out the majority of the cell phone pings. So uh I think that's something that wasn't
brought up. So, you have possibly meeting Jay multiple times before the cops claim they did.
Um then you have uh Jay's lying, but is he lying about everything? Jay's story doesn't line up with Jen's.
Those are red flags. Mhm. Those those uh you have to start assuming innocence. And like I said, on top of that, these
cell phone pings don't make any sense. So, now when you think back to Serial, when they start going over the cell
phone ping technology, you go, "Wait a second. The the DA is telling you that this this
cell phone ping technology, when it's incoming calls, can't be discussed because it's not accurate." Mhm. Then
that throws out another big thing that's been a part of this case and this discussion for a long time.
So, I I think that also goes to the fact of Jay's story not lining up or or adding up. Well, if in fact the defense
never did receive that that sheet that um paper that you're discussing That's enough reason for a new trial.
Well, yeah, of course. One thing. That's That's the the law. I mean, that that if if the defense needs to be
working with everything that the prosecution um has available to them at the time that
they bring the charges. Right. And and it and especially if it's part of your case against the individual. So,
uh that's a tricky thing. Um You want me to keep going down some of my list? We we can. I I do want to just kind of
underline something that you were talking about earlier. So, it's So, it's kind of clear. Um
Regarding Jay's statements or his work history of missing 2 days of work because he was being questioned by
police. Right. It It seems to me, now, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like
that's almost like a they the the uh private investigator finds that information somehow, someway. Yeah.
Is that just his work being told by Jay, "I can't come in today because I'm being questioned by
police, or I have to go to the police department"? Right. You know what I mean? It's It's
Look, almost everybody out there, if not everyone out there, has called in sick to work or called in sick to school and
missed a day when they weren't sick. You know? So, it's it's not so far-fetched to believe that he goes,
"Oh, I I have this great excuse now that I of something that my employer must understand that I can't get out of. I
don't have any choice in the matter. I It's an excused absence from work." Right.
That's very possible. Um and it's tough, too, because I think Jen I actually think Jen gets a bad rap.
And the reason why is cuz she she is just hearsay. She There's no evidence of anything
other than we have a phone We got a phone call record, so she got some cell phones from the suspect's
cell phone. She got some calls from the suspect's cell phone. But everything else that she's saying is
complete hearsay. Mhm. So, I don't even know why she's called. Because it seems like you could defend that so
easily. Were you there? You know, oh well, Jay said that uh they buried Hae. Were you there? No, I
wasn't. Mhm. You know what I mean? Like It right. It's so much like why was she She's She's only there for the portion
of picking Jay up from somewhere. Right. Regardless if it was a shopping mall or
Jay's home. Right. And what we do know is that yes, her story doesn't line up completely with Jay's, but what we do
know is it's pretty proven that this was the story that's been told to her all along
or some version of the story has been told to her all along. Mhm. And then you can get look at it and
go, well, what a piece of [ __ ] for not coming forward. Well, maybe she didn't fully believe it.
And But I just think she gets a bad rap because everything that she's saying is just stuff that she heard and it's just
hearsay. Mhm. Um This Well, this isn't evidence, obviously. This is just my instinct.
But watching her, listening to her, even on the podcast or watching her on these two episodes so
far. Sh- She's the one that for for whatever reason, just instinct instinct alone,
she's the one that I seem to just genuinely believe. Like she seems to me, I I just feel like she's telling
the truth or the truth as she believes it to be. Yeah. Well, I mean, she goes and picks up Jay. Part Part of her story
is that she goes and picks up Jay late at night. Adnan's driving Adnan's car. Okay, so she picks him up at the mall.
Who cares? That doesn't show innocence or guilt. But then Jay says, "Hey, we you know, we used my shovels." And this
is before she knows how much Jay's involved or how much Jay is claiming to be involved. And then they go to this
dumpster and search and she's like, "I never really saw any shovels. I never really
saw anything." Now that could just be that she just didn't see anything or wasn't paying
attention or maybe there wasn't anything there. And if there's nothing there, then we got to start questioning some
other stuff. Is he just making this up completely? Like he was Jay was charged with all
these things throughout the years and most of them being dismissed. And it's like what is what is he telling
these people? So one of the things I wanted to bring up later is when you're questioning Jay,
what I always felt interesting was this information if if Jen is telling the truth, this information
that Jen heard started the day Hae went missing. The day that the cops think the murder
took place. Right. So Jay would have had to come up with this all on his own that day.
Hae's missing. Or or is Jay involved in some other way? Did Jay do this all by himself?
And then he's just trying to lump Adnan into this. But either way, Jen first hears the story the day Hae
goes missing. Mhm. And yes, makes her kind of a piece of [ __ ] for not coming forward and saying, "Hey, look, this
girl's missing." And maybe if she didn't believe Jay at first, okay, you don't say anything, but once they find the
body, you probably should call a lawyer and and go give them the information you want.
Do we know for certain that she knew that they found the body? Cuz the only reason why I throw that out
there is we know she didn't know Hae Min Lee, right? Right, but I think the thing is
with this case you're never going to know the full truth when it comes to Jen, when it
comes to Jay. I just don't think you're ever going to get the full truth. Right, but I
I'm just throwing this out there. If if she didn't know the victim, and she hears this story from Jay, who
she has straightforward said, you know, this is a guy that I believe has told me stories throughout the our time
together. And I mean, really, she may have just thought it was some kind of story. You
know, if I if I if I were to say to you, if you picked me up from somewhere and and later I'm telling you an explanation
of why I was where I you picked me up at or or what I had been doing beforehand,
and I say Anthony Scalucci or you know, some name you've never heard of before. Uh this is what happened, and I was
involved in this and this. You you might just you might just go, "Ah, this might be some other this might
just be a story. I've never heard of that person. That person is lying." tall tale.
I've Yeah, especially if we don't know a lot about there. We know that Jen and Jay were tight,
but Weed-smoking buddies, is what they say. Right. And we So, we don't know this may
this may in fact be Hae Min Lee's name may have never been mentioned to her to Jen ever before this night. You know, or
ever before this time. Right. And you know, that would be a bit of a weird thing. I'm with you. I mean, of course,
that's how we feel on everything and every case. If you know something, you should come forward to the police.
Um But uh yeah, but like you said, look into it from her standpoints and then standpoint, then you start going, "Okay,
I could see why maybe you would hesitate." No, and you got a friend that's a liar.
So, uh that's odd. You know, this Chris uh Flohr, which was um one of Adnan's lawyers, he's the guy with the amazing
um Michael Bolton hair. Mhm. Um the fact that Adnan said, "Hey, look, I would like a lawyer."
And they denied him, you know, access to a lawyer. That he didn't even know he had a lawyer at the
time. Well, is is that true that they denied him a a lawyer? Well, that's That is
what Adnan's saying and that's also what this Chris Chris Flohr is saying. Well, I think what Chris was saying was,
"I was sent by his family and I told police, 'Hey, you need to stop the questioning right now.'" And the police
reaction to him was, "Well, Adnan's not asked for an attorney at this point." Right. And so, they've they've not
necessarily denied him uh counsel if he if he if he's not asked for counsel. Right. But when you have Adnan saying,
"I asked for counsel and they denied it." And then you have his attorney saying, "Hey, look, this is like one of
the rare times I've ever been turned away like this." Mhm. It's more likely I'm going to go with, you know, two
people with the same story that's pretty tight. I mean, you know, they wanted a judge
they wanted the court of law to believe um Jen's story and Jay's story that don't
even line up. So, I'm going to believe a lawyer's story and a and and then the suspect's
story for whatever reason. And and that again is a red flag. So, is that is that
is that deserving of a new trial? Just by that alone. I I don't know the I mean, I know if you're denied
an attorney and you ask for one that you that should that should give you a new trial 100% of the time.
I don't know according to what possibly went down if that falls into the parameters of that. Now, and look,
so many Which I which what I mean by that straight up is just if Adnan never asked
for an attorney. Right. Then they technically did not deny him one. I don't know the way that the rule works
if the attorney shows up on your behalf and you don't even know who they are or don't know that they're there
uh and they get turned away. I don't know how that you know, would work out. The difficult
thing too with that whole situation where you think that as law enforcement, we might want to err
on the side of caution here and we got this guy with this beautiful Michael Bolton hair out in the lobby and he's
saying, "Hey, I'm here to represent live without Adnan Syed?" Yeah. You would think if you were if you
wanted to you know, cuz we see this on on TV from time to time like on Law & Order where
the the police were they're they're doing they're doing what they believe is right in the moment because they're
they're forced to do such a tough job and sometimes the cards are stacked against them and okay, so this is TV
drama and we're going to well, we're going to maybe let one of these rules kind of not really apply in this very
moment because we know this is our guy. Um and then you you have the scene later
where the prosecutor or there's some argument between the detectives and the prosecutor uh because oh, it's getting
thrown out. It's getting thrown out now or we can't use that in court because of
this and this and this. Um, you would think though if if police in this situation really wanted to err
on the side of caution, cuz I firmly I absolutely believe that the attorney showed up that was hired by Adnan's
family and was turned away. I believe that happened. But, I don't know what the rules are on that specific situation
had Adnan not asked for him. The difficult thing here is you would think the detectives would go
Right, but let's back up a little They would go for letting an attorney in the room because it's hired by a family
his family and he's 17 years old. Right, that's I think that's a big thing that's missing in this case a lot when
people look at it is he's 17 years old. Yes, he's charged as a adult but let's not forget he's 17 years old. So, how he
acts and you know, it it's a mature thing to say, "Hey, I need to talk to a lawyer." So, but somebody
could also say, "Well, that sounds guilty to me." You know, um I don't think so. I think I
think once he realized how serious it was I think he knew that he had to get somebody else involved. Well, and he
think he asked and they denied it. You can be these two things at the same time. You
can be scared and innocent. Yes. And let's pretend that we know for certain that Adnan was innocent. I don't think I
would have any reason to believe that he wouldn't have been scared. He's 17 and that's the whole that's the whole thing
about how do you get rid of a high? There's been a lot of people that have suggested that that implies some kind of
guilt that he's like, "Oh, [ __ ] I got to be on I got to bring my A game because I'm going to be questioned and I
might not want to you know, I want to choose my words carefully but I can't now because I'm I got high with these
fools." Right. And I actually think that there's there's as many reasons that you could point to
that as being a statement of guilt of of being some kind of uh Freudian slip of of his guilt
that it could also be very much just a scared teenager who's like crap, I'm high and now I'm
going to have to talk to police. Yeah. I I think I think you could be innocent of murder
and high and 17 years old and still afraid that you're going to have to talk to a police officer. Yeah, well, cuz
it's a drug that makes people paranoid. So, I think that's one. I think even if you were a 17-year-old drunk person
would be I You know what I mean? It's you're doing you already know going into the situation regardless of what they're
going to ask you, you have done something wrong and it may have nothing to do with murder or a missing girl.
Yeah. Uh the other thing that stuck out to me was the students how they got together and they went to the
principal and they were demanding to talk to the the cops. Mhm. Because these are individuals that took
time to talk to different detectives when uh Hae was missing and now that it's this this murder this is homicide,
they went going hey, no, this is too far. We got to protect this person. We know him. Our gut feeling.
And that's that's a big a sign of character. Because if you're on the fence about it, there's no way
you're going to the principal going, we need to talk to authorities. Right. The other thing that I think is um
is interesting about that is um how a lot of the misinformation, hey, they have DNA. Or these parents
saying, yes, this kid was arrested. Yes, we we know that you think he didn't do it.
but come on, he probably did. And I think it's that kind of thinking that we need to dismiss in this country. Mhm. I
mean, it's just not getting us to the truth. Our goal should always be to get to the truth, not to get a conviction,
but to get to the truth. Um another thing that I thought was very like, you know, sirens going off, was
when they say, "Hey, there's 20 bodies found in this wooded area." The same wooded area that Hae Min Lee's body was
found in. And this was known as the city's graveyard. So, Over the course of how long? Um
It It's It's I I don't know, maybe a 10-year Oh, you're right. I was going to say it's an
extensive period of time, if I remember correctly, from Right, but 20 bodies is a lot. Yeah.
And so, now we have this idea that maybe she didn't maybe she didn't The The whole thing has always been, did
she give Adnan a ride? Cuz if she did, he's probably the killer. If she didn't give
him a ride, and she met up with her boyfriend, Don, then he's probably the killer. But one of the things that I've
always thought needs to be looked at is yeah, a serial killer, or a killer, or, you know,
opportunist. Um I think that's very possible. And And to me, the where she was buried,
and that being a common place for people of that city to bury somebody, or put somebody after a murder,
it leans towards that idea. Po- Possibly, but I mean, it's it's also not terribly uncommon for for
someone who is not equipped to deal with something that they just did, to react Right. I agree.
and and and, you know, place a body where they've heard in the news or or have heard from friends that oh, they
found another body out in Lincoln Park. Right. You know, um The The interesting thing there is the burial with when you
when you dig when someone digs a grave and I've I believe firmly and in in fact know this to be a a very true statement,
not 100% of the time but 100% a good amount of the time I would guarantee you that a seasoned detective
would say that that action, the action of digging a grave and placing somebody there and covering them up suggests that
the offender would be someone close to the victim. Right. That That someone on their inner circle
at some level because if it was a a lot of times when you have a stranger on stranger attack and murder
a lot of times they won't even place the body very deep into the woods. You know,
because they're they're not running from as much as the person that kills the victim that's on the inner circle.
Because it the if you don't ever find that victim well, then there's a that really helps
the people close to that victim. If it if in fact the offender was very close to the victim. Right.
Yeah, I mean, the more I watch this the more confusing I probably after I watched it I had my buddy Morgan
come over and we're working on some exciting project that we have in the works. We finally
started on it for a True Crime Garage project. We also have another project that we started uh that got kicked off.
You got something sent to you in the mail. Mhm. I won't go into it too much, but
there's two things that are a part of the garage, let's say. They will be a part of the garage,
but But projects outside the normal show that we're working on. So, he comes over, watches it. We we we watch it. We
kind of dissect some of the stuff that didn't make any sense. Again, the the amount of
the amount of charges uh on Jay's uh rap sheet is just a lot. Uh ridiculous. And
one of the things that I thought was multiple red flags is when they're going over the evidence that they didn't find.
They want to talk about these gloves that Jay claims Adnan had. Well, it's one guy claiming them. So, if
you think this is a big aha moment that we have a red fabric which her uniform her field hockey uniform was made out of
a red fabric. That if that's a big aha moment for the cops, then why didn't they get pictures
of Adnan with these gloves on? Or get eyewitnesses that say, "Hey, I saw Adnan wear gloves like these." These were red
wool gloves with leather palm prints Mhm. whatever you want to call them. So, if
that was a big aha moment, why didn't he do anything about it? On top of that, we
have a thumb print. You know, they they believe that the attack happened in her car.
And the murder took place in her car. If that was true, we got a big thumb print
that did not match Adnan and did not match Jay. Mhm. So, who does it match? Why didn't we go
after this? Why don't we Why don't we know that answer? And then we have DNA underneath her fingernails and and I
think other points of DNA. Why aren't we testing these? You know, it's it's that simple. It's
almost like they got this idiot to confess. We don't know if his story is or true.
Uh they kind of line up, but they don't with some other person that that he knows. Uh both drug users, and we're
going to put them on the stands. They're not even going to line up with each other, and we're going to get conviction
out of this. Mhm. I mean, it's so surprising that they did, really. Um but I think that's another point of
you know, evidence of why there should be another trial. Well, you you need your when you're
sitting there at the defendant's table and you're on trial, you really need your defense to come to
bat for you. And if if your defense team sees something on the victim, it's it's difficult
because if you if you're absolutely innocent, you should be screaming the the reaction you should be having is not
in the courtroom, like we talked about earlier. Right. It's behind closed doors in front of
your defense attorney saying, "I'm absolutely innocent. They need to test you know, please test something. What
what is there anything out there that they didn't test that we can test?" Um because
there there's two there's two problems, well, one problem, but a problem from a different angle for
both sides. If you're the prosecutor, if you have a guy that's saying, "Look, I helped
dispose of the body. The the person on trial told me they killed her. Right. And I can point to A, B, C,
and D why he did what he said he did. And then you have another person backing up portions of that story saying, "Yeah,
he told me that that that Adnan killed this girl." Right. And all you need for if you're the prosecutor is for at
trial for them to believe Jay's story. That's all you need. Right. You don't you don't necessarily need
the DNA evidence underneath her fingernails to convict them if you can get them to believe his story. If you
can get get them to believe that he's telling the truth and we can prove that he's telling the truth because he
knew where the car was and that's kind of what their general approach was. So then you go, all right, well, we have
this other stuff. We're not going to test it because what if what if we're wrong? They it it it doesn't build our
case. I know, but that's what frustrates me. It's like we're we're going after convictions and
not going after the truth. Well, no, I get that. I get that, but the other thing though too is
you can also have a victim who doesn't have the DNA of the offender underneath their fingernails. Right. So that can
happen that can happen too. It's almost if you're the prosecution, it's almost like you have no reason to to to test
the DNA. But that but the defense could have pushed to have that tested. Well, that's what I mean. The defense
could have. The defense could have and probably should have and that's why if you are in fact the defendant and you
are innocent look, I know it's tough when you when you're sitting in that chair, but you
got to confer you got to talk with your defense attorney and figure out what there is out there that can they can
test because on the defense side now if you're the defense attorney and you're not
you're not completely certain that your client is 100% innocent, you may not want to test the DNA underneath those
fingernails as well. Right. But if you are the living breathing person that was that's on
trial and you know you are innocent, then you you have nothing to to lose by this because if the DNA is tested and as
I said, it it there There cases out there where the victim does not have any of the offender's DNA on them. It It It
does happen. But, you can at least point to that as a possible sign of reasonable doubt.
Right. Yes, I mean, so now that we're halfway through this, are you any closer to
an idea of what you think happened? Because a lot of times with documentaries, you know, after
after uh you know, episode one in a six-part series, like by the by the third episode, you start going,
"Yeah." I kind of I kind of get a better picture of what happened. Are you any closer to a better picture?
No. Um Cuz I And I agree with you, either am I, but that's where I think that's what makes this documentary
pretty interesting, because I don't know what side the documentary's on. I You know, I've since the the
completion of Serial season one podcast, you know, when listening to it through the first time, I was trying not to make
not to pick a side or to even pick uh okay, here's what I think happened. You know, not even to create a theory.
Right. But, after I finished it, um my general thoughts on on the the whole case is that either Adnan
killed her as as the, you know, as the court system, as the detectives, as Jay has all said, or that Jay killed
her. And I I still you know, there there are some other possible avenues, but I I feel like with
what information has been presented, whether you choose to believe if it's true or not.
My feeling is that one of those two individuals killed her or they both killed her together.
And the the problem that I keep going back to and that I that I still have even more so now having seen the first
two episodes is Okay, let's let's pretend for just for the sake of this argument. Mhm.
That Jay is telling the truth about one simple thing. That Adnan did kill Hae Min Lee. Well, right. And let me just
stop you there. If Well, What What the So, I don't get to finish my argument for the sake of
this argument? No, no, no. I want to I want to point out because we've had this conversation.
I want to point out that after Serial, after everything, when they have talked to Jay,
Jay has stated, "Maybe you don't believe my story. Maybe parts of my story changed, but it will
never change the fact of what I saw that day in that trunk." And you know what I mean? You know what I mean?
Right. So, like So, what you're saying is he lied about everything or could have, but as long as he's
telling the truth about this. Okay, continue. Well, what I what I mean is what I can't
figure out and what I'll never be able to figure out is let's pretend that he is absolutely
truthful in his statement that Adnan killed Hae Min Lee. Then why lie about any part of the story?
That's That's the troubling thing. That's the troubling thing and that's just a liar. You're just naturally a
liar. get that and that's why I pointed out that sometimes it doesn't make any sense
and maybe he doesn't Maybe he's living in an in alternative reality because of his own lies throughout the years.
Right. But it it just I For me to have a to definitively believe that Adnan did it and Jay did not or did not assist in
the murder. I mean, other than what he's saying he assisted in. What What I'm getting at is I can't get
over the fact that I know he is lying about some of these portions of the story. Right.
Why would he lie at all when he needs the police to believe him? That That he This is what I saw. This is
the This is what I participated in, but I didn't kill her. This guy did. Right. And
and here's where it gets weirder is when they know that Jen's going to be talked
to by the police and and Jay says, "Say whatever you need to say, but, you know, be careful and protect yourself."
And so, even Jen has said, "I picked him up at the mall." For some reason, Jay keeps saying that
"I picked him up at his house." Why is he saying that? What is he trying to protect? Mhm. What is you know, he's
doing it for a reason. And so, that's weird because they know him. So, to them he's lying for a
reason. And there's a part of me cuz I don't know him, I go, "Well, yeah, some of the
stuff he's probably lying for a reason, you know, to make himself look less guilty." I mean, there's no wonder that,
you know, his story has changed and course he got more involved. You know, he went
from "I just was there. I just drove there. I just saw the body." To Mhm. "Oh, we used my shovels
and I helped dig the hole." Mhm. So, yes, here's what we do know. We know he's a liar. But, what is he lying
about? And is there any truth to what he's saying? Or is this all completely made up? And what what is tough for me
to think that it's all made up is if if this story just started coming out December 26th or December 27th or
December 28th or February I mean February 26th 27th 28th Maybe I go hey he's probably completely
full [ __ ] But the fact that he then this is what now Jen could be a liar too but what she's stating
is this information was given to her on the 13th of January. On that night. And that makes it seem like
but then I also just wonder does this dude have some mental issues? Is he I mean we have this rap sheet
that's super long. He's just not getting charged you know he's he's basically doing a crime and never
getting convicted of it. He's getting charged with a crime and then he'll get convicted of it. He gets convicted of
somethings but it's just like does this guy have some kind of mental thing that's going on or again did he do
something to Hae Min Lee and he's now you know uh and he started covering his tracks on
the 13th. Mhm. Uh but I feel like somebody that knows a lot about this case and had some strong opinions
and strong thoughts that it's like after these two episodes I'm I'm I'm one way back into the case way too
deep spending too many hours looking this stuff up and I'm more confused than ever.
I am more confused than ever. Cuz um it just nothing seems to line up. Hey.

The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 2 Off The Record: Episode 47 Nic and the Captain discuss the HBO documentary The Case Against Adnan Syed: Part 2 www.truecrimegarage.com

Brief Summary

The episode analyzes Adnan Syed's case, focusing on witness testimonies and inconsistencies in the investigation.

Key points

Adnan's Panic. Adnan, feeling high, questions how to get rid of it before talking to police.
Conflicting Stories. Witnesses provide conflicting accounts, raising doubts about the prosecution's case.
The Flaw in the Defense. The defense's failure to address the liar's credibility undermines the case against Adnan Syed.
Assuming Innocence. The justice system operates on the principle of assuming innocence until proven guilty.
Jay's Confusion. Jay's potential confusion about details raises questions about his reliability as a witness.
The Right to Counsel. Adnan's claim of being denied a lawyer raises serious legal concerns.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Did Jay offer up this information?

4:14WatchNov 11, 2024

Tension

50/ 100Some tension

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