The 911 Call That Could Have Saved Tina Fontaine's Life | Forensic Files

911. What's the address of the emergency? >> Hey, um I like to report a blue truck
that was stolen earlier today. >> Is it your truck? >> No. Um he's my friend and he stole it
earlier today. >> Days after 15-year-old Tina Fontaine made that call. She was murdered. But at
the time, police didn't even know that 911 call existed. So, they didn't [music] know to look at the very man she
named in it. So, how did things go so wrong? And how did they end up catching him? Well, buckle up and let us [music]
tell you. I'm Ashley Flowers. >> And I'm Britt. >> And this is Crime Junkie. Britt, we know the ripple effect of
homicides [music] extends beyond the victim themselves. It changes the lives of dozens, maybe even hundreds of people
as they have to adjust to their new reality. Not only the reality that someone is now gone, but also that
someone else was evil enough to take their [music] lives. And just like a ripple on water, it starts with one
thing, like one moment that breaks the surface. And for Tina Fontaine, that moment happened far before her own
murder. It was actually on October 31st, 2011. And that's the day that her father
Eugene was beaten and left to succumb [music] to his injuries behind a shed on the reservation where he lived in
Manitoba. The two men who killed him were arrested, charged with manslaughter, and eventually found
guilty. But that was cold comfort to a then 12-year-old Tina, who was facing down the barrel of a whole life without
her dad. Now, Eugene hadn't had custody of Tina and her little sister Sarah. Their mom, Valentina, wasn't really in
the picture either. Both of them had struggled with substance use disorder. So, the girls lived with their great
aunt Thelma, who already had a long career as a foster mother. And despite Thelma showering the girls with all the
love she could muster, love can only go so far in a situation [music] like this.
And slowly over the following years, Thelma witnessed the big-hearted little girl that she'd raised start to change.
According to Joanna Jolly's book, Red River Girl, she started having trouble in school and then she started skipping
school and then she started running away. And Thelma was trying her best, even tried getting professionals to help
manage her grief and growing behavior concerns, but help just was not readily available. After the murder of her
father, victim services never offered grief counseling. And Thelma reached out herself about getting something set up
with victim services, but nothing happened. And the one time Tina was actually referred to a counselor by
Child and Family Services or CFS, the sessions were too far away from their home on the Sagin First Nation Reserve
to actually be able to go. Between late 2013 and April 2014, Tina ran away three
times, always to Winnipeg, which is about an hour and a half southwest, and sometimes to her mom, Valentina's home.
Now, Valentina had sort of reappeared in Tina and Sarah's lives after their dad's
murder. And despite Thelma's concerns, the girls desperately wanted their mom to be a part of their lives. And so when
Tina asked Thelma if she can go visit her mom in Winnipeg for a week in late June of 2014, Thelma says yes. Now, she
still doesn't love that Valentina has made her way back into the girl's lives. But as far as Thelma knows, Valentina's
doing well. The last time Tina and Sarah went to visit a few months ago, she'd called Valentina's social worker, who
assuaged a lot of her worries. She [music] had stable housing and Valentina herself said that she was working on
getting custody of her other children who would have been Tina and Sarah's half siblings. And so according to Nancy
McDonald's reporting for Mlan, she gives Tina $60 and a phone card telling her to
call if she needs anything. And then she's off being driven by Thelma's daughter and son. [music]
>> Just Tina. Sarah doesn't go. >> No. So, she was actually supposed to, but she decided last minute to stay
back, which honestly was probably a blessing because no one could have guessed that [music] an hour and a half
away, Tina and her aunt and uncle would pull up to an empty home. Like Valentina's not there. Neither are her
kids. And of course, like Tina's relatives are a bit worried, but I guess Tina's like cool, calm, collected. She's
[music] like, "Listen, just drop me off at Valentina's sister's house. Like nothing to be concerned about. Plus, she
has plenty of family in the city that will watch out for her. So, she's confident she's going to be okay.
Valentina is going to come and get her. So, her aunt and uncle agree to that. They agree to let her stay, trusting
that Valentina and her family will watch out for the 15-year-old in their care. So, they drop her off and drive off. And
the weeks pass and Thelma's waiting back home, not really hearing anything from Tina or Valentina all week. Not that
she's really even expecting to. But when she calls Valentina's house, she can't get through because the phone line has
been disconnected. And listen, how many times she calls, who else she reaches out to, unclear. But the long and the
short of it is that when Thelma can't get a hold of Tina or Valentina on the phone, [music]
she knows in her bones that something is wrong. So, she and her husband Joe drive
down to Winnipeg, pull up in front of Valentina's house, only to find that [music] Tina isn't there. Neither is
Valentina or any of Tina's half siblings. Because what Thelma hadn't known when she approved the trip, what
maybe even Tina hadn't known was that Valentina wasn't doing well. In the time between Tina and Sarah's last visit and
now, she had slipped back into addiction, losing both her home and custody of her other kids.
>> Had Valentina actually ever met up with Tina after she got to Winnipeg? >> Yes. So, eventually Thema learned that
Valentina had picked Tina up, but where they went is anyone's guess. And Belma does not trust that Tina will be safe in
her mom's care at this point. In fact, she's worried that Valentina maybe even abducted Tina so that she wouldn't leave
Winnipeg. >> Had she threatened to do that before? >> I don't think so. But like, I think
anything's on the table right now. And the idea that Valentina had something to do with Tina's sudden ghosting only
grows when Thelma gets a Facebook message from a guy saying that he's worried that Valentina's using drugs
with her daughter and that Tina might even be being sexually exploited. >> Who is this guy exactly?
>> This guy is named Larry. He dated Tina earlier that year. That's who's messaging her. They broke up, but
they're still like friendly or whatever. Though, I will say that there were some
sources that called him Tina's current boyfriend, but I don't think that's accurate. So, Thelma contacts CFS, who
then tried to find Valentina, which they do, and I'm not sure where she is when CFS tracks her down, but one thing is
clear, Tina's not with her. Does she say where her daughter is? >> She says she doesn't know. She says that
she's barely been with Tina this whole time. Her story is that she picked her up from her sister's place. They hung
out for a bit, a few days maybe, and then poof, like Tina left or Valentina left, but basically they separated and
she hasn't even heard from her daughter since. Well, it turns out there's a little more to the story. So Tina's
sister Sarah pipes up and shows Thelma a message that she'd gotten from Tina. And
I can't find the exact date that this was sent. This was sometime within the last 11 days or so, but it was a selfie
from Tina. And in it, she had a black eye. She had scratches on her face and she said that it was their mom that had
been the one to hurt her. And then in another message, she told Sarah to tell Thelma and her husband that she loved
them, but she wasn't ready to come home yet. So Thelma goes and contacts various
CFS agencies. She even contacts the police, anyone to help find Tina. According to the book Red River Girl,
she and her husband even go to Winnipeg a second time to look for her. places at
like the mall, local shopping areas, but they can't find her, and none of their extended family seems to know where she
is either. By July 17th, over 2 weeks after she last saw Tina, Thelma is at her wit's end. So, she makes the
decision to let CFS officially take Tina into their care, hoping that they would
maybe find her and keep her safe, get her the help that she needs or get her to an environment that might be more
suitable for her. >> I guess I don't get it. What does transferring care to them help?
>> I didn't understand either and I didn't know like you have so much like and granted this is the Canadian system like
but you have so much like more knowledge of like the foster care system like >> I didn't see how that would help cuz
there it's not like they're not looking for her like >> and they are involved with her.
>> Yeah. So I didn't know our team tried to get [clears throat] in touch with the or
even people at CFS to have them like try and help us understand but no one has gotten back to us or anyone we have
talked to. They haven't been able to explain it any better than that's just what happened. But transferring care,
long and short of it is it didn't have the outcome I think Thelma was hoping for. Because on August 17th, one of
Thelma's relatives tells her that they'd seen a Facebook post. And in this post,
it says that Tina had been found, but she wasn't alive. And Thelma doesn't believe it at first. Like, I mean, this
is a Facebook post, right? Like, and they haven't heard anything. But the next day, police are there
knocking on their door, delivering the news that she had been praying to never hear. [music] And what the investigation
into Tina's death reveals is that she fell through every crack possible, was failed by every adult meant to protect
her. She wasn't flying under the radar during this time. She was right there, able to be helped again and again and
again, [music] which made it easy for investigators to retrace her last steps through CFS and police reports. The
first one being on July 17th [music] The first time Tina came into contact with someone in a position of authority
was on July 17th. That is when she was picked up by the Winnipeg Police Service after someone reported seeing her
screaming while she was being dragged down the street by an older guy. And once police arrived, they found Tina and
the guy that she was fighting with, this 18-year-old named Cody Mason, who was identified as her boyfriend,
>> her current boyfriend. >> Right. Not Larry, who messaged Thelma. >> Got it. >> So, when police found Tina and Cody,
they're both drunk. So, police took them into custody and sent them to separate detox facilities to dry out. Now,
because Thelma had given up custody by the time of this incident, Tina was discharged into the care of child and
family services. A piece from the Manitoba Advocate called A Place That Feels Like Home: The Story of Tina
Fontaine [music] states that CFS put her up at a local hotel until a placement became
available. But it seems like they did that without supervision or anyone to stay with her and make sure she was
okay. This 15year-old, and I know this because she was there one night and then she left. I've never heard of any sort
of like child protective services leaving a minor. >> I know. I feel like like my first
thought goes to like the fact that they're probably like all child protective services agencies like
>> wildly understaffed for sure. >> But that doesn't mean you just leave the kids alone.
>> I thought that I was reading it wrong when I first like was looking into this
because I like I could not imagine that happening here. But apparently leaving her alone in a hotel was fine. Like
right in line with policies and procedures at the time. Now later CFS ends up removing this as an option.
Yeah. >> So it's no longer in practice today, but because it was then, Tina was able to
leave. So the next confirmed contact was a few days later. That's when Tina called CFS basically just to say that
she was okay. She was staying with her boyfriend, but no workers actually put eyes on her or could find even a
placement for her. So then on July 23rd, Tina showed up at a CFS office in Winnipeg with Cody, her boyfriend, after
which she went to a youth shelter. But then she bounced in and out of youth shelters, one of which reported her
missing, but then cancelled the report when she turned back up to that same shelter. And on nights when she wasn't
in a shelter, she would crash on a relatives or even a friend's couch or sometimes with Cody. And at one point,
she even stayed with Cody's dad. So she's >> wait family members. Her family members
know she's technically missing. >> This is what I was saying. This is what's so frustrating. Like some of them
do. And I think this is one of the sadder parts of this story because it's not just the system and CFS who's
failing her time and time again. it was her family and the other adults in her life because I guess when she would show
up and again they knew people were looking for her they were basically like you know what she looks happy she looks
sober she's fine and again maybe it's cuz they knew she had nowhere to go I don't know but yes she was popping up
and there were sightings of her by family members in this time now in early August she was again in contact with a
CFS worker and they talked about finding a placement for her but all that was available was another youth shelter and
CFS workers told her to bike there herself. So in and out, in and out of youth shelters. Missing persons reports
get filed and then taken back until August 8th when Winnipeg police pulled over a drunk driver and they found Tina
inside the car. Now, at first she gave them a fake name, but she eventually told them her real one. And even though
there was an active high-risk missing person's report filed for Tina at that time of this encounter, the officers let
her go. >> Why? Well, one of the officers who pulled them over was new. So, they said
they like just missed the report and for some reason they thought she looked 18 anyways. So, I don't know. I don't know.
Again, I every crack she fell through. Now, the same day that she has this encounter, Tina was found back behind a
building unconscious with her skirt pulled down and no underwear. Now, we know this because she gets taken to a
hospital where she tells people there that she had been [music] drinking, been taking pills, and using other drugs, but
she wouldn't talk about how she ended up in the alley. She told a doctor that she
was going to go meet up with this guy named Sebastian, who she said was going to get her a bike. And when the doctor
asked who Sebastian was, Tina apparently just kind of like shrugged her shoulders
and said he was a quote 62-year-old meth user that she sometimes liked to chill with. So she gets discharged that
afternoon and put up in a hotel again. This time I know she was being supervised, but by the next day she's
gone again. How if she's being supervised? Well, even the supervision that she had, apparently it wasn't like
24/7, so it was easy for her to slip away when she wanted to yet again. Now, when she didn't return to that last
hotel, police issued a citywide bolo on August 9th and several more times in the
next week. And this is what kind of finally gets things in motion because eventually Winnipeg police, child and
family services, and street outreach [music] teams made a real effort to search for her. And they were supported
by the Canadian Center for Child Protection, which runs the missing kids.ca program. But now, over a month
after she'd last been seen by Thelma, no one is able to find Tina. Not until August 17th when a man and his
son come across a bodyshaped object wrapped in what appeared to be a blanket along the bank of the Red River in
Winnipeg while scoping out fishing locations. Now, when they find this, they didn't open the blanket up or touch
it. They like ran immediately and contacted police. And it doesn't take long for police to respond because while
this guy and his son had been out there, they had actually seen a bunch of police
boats and divers. [music] According to coverage from CBC News, those crews had been on the water all
weekend looking for a man who'd been reported struggling in the water on the Friday before. But this obviously wasn't
the missing guy that they were looking for. [music] And none of the crews that were out there like were any part of the
search for Tina. But when the man reports this discovery, that's who they've now found. Though it does take a
minute to actually figure that out because when they find her, she's pretty decomposed. So, it is a tattoo on her
back with her father's name, Eugene Fontaine, that eventually leads them to who Tina is. And when they unwrap what
they find to be a duvet cover around her, weighed down by rocks, they saw that she was fully clothed. And there is
no evidence of sexual assault. No clear cause of death. I mean, she has a few bumps and scratches, but nothing that
would have been fatal. No broken bones, no sign that she'd been in any kind of a
struggle. and the toxicology results don't support a drug overdose or even alcohol poisoning. Now, she had some
cannabis in her system, but the tests are negative for other hard drugs. And in the end, the pathologist rules that
Tina's cause and manner of death are undetermined. Now, the pathologist does say that the circumstances of her death
are highly suspicious, though. >> Yeah. She's wrapped up and weighed down by rocks.
>> Definitely. And even though that's like the official word, right? like undetermined. Detectives are convinced
that she actually was murdered and the community is also convinced and detectives are facing extraordinary
pressure from every direction to solve this case. According to Katie Dangerfield's reporting for Global News,
after Tina's death, more than a thousand people marched in the streets calling for a national inquiry into missing and
murdered First Nations women and girls. Because Manitoba where this is all happening, it's kind of the epicenter of
this crisis. And in fact, Joanna Jolly's book reports that the reserve that Tina's from, Seing First Nation, that
reserve had the highest number of missing and murdered women and girls of any First Nations community in Canada.
The problem here is it's hard to solve a case when you have no cause of death or
no witnesses, no crime scene. Except they actually had their best lead right in front of them all along. And it took
a witness coming forward to show them what was right under their noses. Because once public interest in Tina's
case picks up, tips start coming in. People who'd seen her or interacted with her leading up to her death. And it led
police to learn that Tina had been sex trafficked and she'd been using drugs on and off. And it also pointed them at
some suspicious people who ultimately get excluded. But it was one tip from this dude named Robert that really
changes everything. And this guy's like, "Hey, I actually saw Tina on August 6th
and she seemed really upset. She bummed a cigarette off of me." And this guy says that when they got to talking, she
said that she'd been hanging out with some friends at a house nearby, and they'd left her alone in a room with
this older dude, and he was clearly coming on to her, creeping her out big time. And when she told this guy that
like, "No, she's not interested," he got aggressive and started yelling at her. And by the way, this guy's like, "Oh,
there's this other thing." Right before Tina came over and started talking to me, I noticed her make this call from a
nearby pay phone. Now, I don't think the guy overheard the call, but based on the
location and the time, investigators were able to figure out exactly who she called that night.
>> 911. What's the address of the emergency? >> Hey, um I like to report a blue truck
that was stolen earlier today. >> Okay. And do you know who stole it? This guy named Sebastian.
>> Is it your truck? >> What? >> Is it your truck? >> No. Um, he's my friend and he sold it
earlier today. >> Okay. You need to call the police directly at 986. >> Yeah. >> 62.
>> Yeah. >> And when you get the recorded message, press 8. That'll take you directly to a
person. >> Okay then. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Bye. >> Bye. Sebastian's the guy she was going to get
the bike from when she ended up unconscious behind that building. Right. >> Correct.
>> And what's the deal with this truck? >> They don't know at the time, but like
they need to find like like that call didn't result in anything basically. So they need to track the Sebastian guy
down to kind of piece things together. And I know they track him to a house where he was apparently living in like a
tent out back. [music] And when they go there, this young woman answers the door. They ask for Sebastian. And she's
like, "Who? Who are you talking about? I don't know a Sebastian. And they're like, "Oh, we heard you had this guy
Sebastian living in a tent in your backyard." And she's like, "Oh, are you talking about Frenchie?"
>> Frenchie? That's what she said. She's like, "Yeah, we've got a guy in a tent or had a guy in a tent, but we know him
as Frenchie." And the mom there tells police that she had offered this Frenchie guy basically to let him stay
in a tent like sometime in July. But she started really hating the way that Frenchie acted around her 15year-old
daughter. He was like staring at her, offering to get her drunk or high, like just terrible things, which is why no
one was super sad that they hadn't seen him in a while. But they recommend police go visit the local scrapyard
because they knew that he was a regular there. So they go there and when they describe Sebastian/Frenchy
to the woman working at the front desk, hoping she'd seen him recently, or more importantly could give them his last
name, she tells them she doesn't know Sebastian. She doesn't even know a Frenchie. But then when police describe
his physical appearance, this white guy, early 50s, long grayish hair, she's like, "Oh yeah, no, I know him, but like
his name isn't Sebastian or Frenchie. His name is Raymond Cormier." Police learned that Raymond Cormier is a
[music] 52year-old with a long criminal record and a bunch of outstanding drugrelated warrants. According to
reporting in the Globe and Mail, Raymond had basically drifted all over Canada and was in and out of prison on a bunch
of different convictions, including robbery, assault, theft, and fraud. [music] And this guy spent a lot of years, like
years and years and years in prison, not to mention his time on parole. So, they
start going on the hunt for this guy. But the problem is, it's like he's vanished. Now, thankfully, an out ofthe-
blue call from an inmate at a local prison gives them a lucky break. So, this inmate, his name is Ernest the
Wolf. He's been locked up since August on theft charges, which is just like the latest in his own string of convictions.
But Ernest tells investigators like, "Hey, I'm not sure if anyone's told you this yet, but you should really look
into this guy named Raymond Cormier for Tina's murder." And mind you, this is completely unprompted. They haven't
mentioned Tina. He's the one that does that. And they haven't even mentioned Raymond either. Like, he's the one
bringing him up. And he tells investigators he'd known Raymond a long time, like many years. They were kind of
off and on like friends, but they'd reconnected [music] again just that summer, and he'd even hung out a few
times with Raymond and Tina and another couple at a house in Winnipeg. So Ernest
says that it was obvious that Raymond had sexual interest in Tina, and that just never sat right with him because
Tina is quite literally a girl. She's a 15-year-old girl and Raymond is an old ass man. And he heard the two of them
had gotten into some kind of altercation or fight. And I don't know that it was physical, but basically gotten into it
over a stolen truck [music] one night. And the next thing he knew, he was seeing the headlines about Tina's
murder. >> Okay, we need to pause for a second. I'm starting to put the pieces together.
>> It's messy. Like the timeline is is is I get it. Okay. So, August 6th, she calls
911 to report a truck stolen by Sebastian, who we now know is Raymond. >> Sebastian Frenchie Raymond. Yes.
>> Got it. Then that same night, she told that Robert guy she'd been at a house and there was an older man who made her
feel like >> came under >> uncomfortable. TBD Sebastian Frenchie Raymond. >> Yeah. Then on the 8th, she was found in
the back alley saying she was going to see this Sebastian Raymond because he was going to get her a bike. So he's
like involved in all these moments, >> right? And then on the 9th, that's when they had their last sighting of her by a
witness. I hadn't told you that part, but like so we know she's seen on the 9th, but yes, he's like clearly like in
her life in all these events, >> right? So Ernest had seen Raymond at least once after all of that went down.
And Raymond told him about the stolen truck, about this argument that he'd had with Tina. Basically, she was pissed
that he'd stolen it, which made Ernest super wary because he didn't want to be in the vicinity of a stolen truck
because like he and Raymond were doing a lot of drugs at the time. Like he didn't
want this stolen truck acting like a beacon leading police straight to where they were.
>> But he says that Raymond's like, "Listen, like don't worry about it. I've taken care of the problem." Uh the
problem being the truck or the problem being Tina? >> You tell me. Right. Like and listen,
this thing he's saying, like it's not the hard evidence that they're hoping to find, but it's not nothing. Especially
since Ernest was able to give them another missing piece of the puzzle. They had been looking for the house of
these supposed friends of Tina's named Sarah. Not her sister Sarah, but Sarah and Tyrell. because I guess Cody had at
one point told investigators that he and Tina had spent some time there, but at and this is still looking for her at the
time. They couldn't find it. Cody couldn't remember the address, whatever. Well, fast forward, Ernest does them a
solid because he knows the address. So, that's where they go next. Again, we're just trying to get more info. So, when
they get there, they find Sarah, but not Tyrell. And she says he doesn't live there anymore. But, she does agree to go
with them to the station to answer some questions. And they're like, this is crazy. They're like just getting into
the car when investigators see someone open the back door to Sarah's house to put out the garbage. And I have to
imagine like the first thing is they're like, "Oh, you liar. It's Tyrell." >> Because she like hadn't said anyone was
there. They didn't realize anyone was going to be there. It's not Tyrell, by the way. And she's like, "Oh, yeah,
yeah, yeah. I have a friend staying with me [music] at the moment." And they look
up and they like really look at him and they realize like, "Oh my god, this is Raymond staying at her house." So they
like went there to try to find any information that she may have about and they find him.
>> Raymond, according to Cameron Mlan's reporting for CBC News, Raymond tries to
run. They end up chasing him down, arresting him on some outstanding warrants. And when they talk to him,
Raymond insists that he had nothing to do with Tina's death. And he tells police they're wasting their time
focusing on him. Now, he admits that he had a sexual interest in Tina when they first met, but he says like once he
found out she was under 18, like he he didn't anymore. he wasn't attracted to her, which like come on, like no, that's
not what they've been hearing from everyone else. They're with him in an interview room for like 8 hours [music]
on and off. And the longer they're in there, the more hostile and aggressive he gets, [music] and the grosser his
comments about Tina get. It turns out his interest in her did [music] not die down when he learned that she was just
15. And as the night goes on, police see more and more of what they think is the
real Raymond. [music] this hotheaded sexual predator with a history of violence. And they end up holding him
there and then convicting him on a theft charge. So, he's in jail while they try
to firm up their case against him for Tina's murder. But their case against him for that murder is really weak. I
mean, there was some physical evidence collected from the duvet cover that Tina was found in, like some hairs that they
did get like eight different DNA profiles from, but none of them are Raymond's DNA, [music]
though. I mean, that's to say like none of them are necessarily from a killer, though, right? Like,
>> right. Anyone could have left them there, >> right? So, the DNA, his DNA being on
there would have been a nice to have, but it would not have sealed the deal in any kind of way since he admitted to
knowing her, right? >> Being around her, stuff like that. >> Yeah. So there isn't anything that
investigators can tie to Raymond as far as physical evidence goes. So what do they have on Raymond then?
>> Other than the stories they've heard, not much. So they I know they start showing like the duvet like a picture of
the duvet cover around and witnesses they interview say like, "Yeah, they recognize it. Yes, we think it's
Raymond's. It's not in his possession anymore. So that's suspicious, but again, not a slam dunk by any means.
>> Still, Winnipeg police are sure that they have the right guy, but they know that if they're going to get this case
across the finish line, what they need is a confession. The jail time he'd been serving didn't seem to be inspiring him
to [music] talk. So when he gets out, investigators decide to try another approach, a Mr. Big Sting.
And I know we've talked about these on the show before, but like for our newbies or for a refresher, Brett, you
want to give the people the lowdown on what a Mr. Bigsting is? >> Gladly. So, a Mr. Bigsting is when
undercover officers pretending to be part of an organized crime group have a kind of meat cute with a suspect during
which the undercover officers basically say, "Hey, you want to make some money? We've got some jobs for you." The jobs
start small, like helping someone move or driving a car from one place to another, but that leads to bigger jobs
and more money, kind of bringing them into the fold of this fake crime [music] syndicate, making them feel trusted and
important. And eventually, there's some kind of meeting with the head of this organization, Mr. Big,
>> who finds out about this [music] police investigation in question and the person's role as a potential suspect.
and they use that information to kind of say like just tell me what happened. Tell me the whole truth and we'll take
care of you. I can protect you. >> Or sometimes like I've even seen them do it where it's like well you need to like
give us something so we can like trust you. Here's what we've done. >> Yes. And if everything goes well, the
suspect will confess everything that actually happens. And what always floores me is it has a pretty high
success rate between like 75 and 95% success rate. Well, success rate TVD because like like I think about like the
way people view success rates of confessions here in the US like which we now know like not that all confessions
are but like when they're coerced or like false confessions. >> Well, that's the thing. This is really
controversial >> bordering on coercion like you were saying. >> It's actually illegal here in the US but
this case is taking place in Canada. >> Yeah. So these stings are like very elaborate, very expensive, and very
risky. >> Mhm. >> And they take time. Like this one took 6 months. Joanna Jolly's book on this case
goes in down like this like playbyplay like of this sting. So if you're really interested, I recommend you check that
out. And listen, I know we've talked about Mr. Big Stings on the show before and like every single time
>> I'm shocked at how the whole thing works. Like I can't believe they've been doing this for so long in Canada. It
seems like the fact that like it's so wellnown and people know like how does anyone fall for it anymore? I know. But
>> this wasn't your typical sting operation because Raymond is not your typical suspect. What is most interesting to me
about this particular sting is how close Raymond came to figuring the whole thing
out. Like he was sus right from the start. Within a couple of weeks, he was saying that he thought the police had
undercover officers spying on him at his employment assistance office. And by the
end of the operation, Raymond was legit pointing out actual undercover officers,
saying like he's pretty sure like I'm pretty sure that guy's following us. And he's like, I think he's watching me. He
was he caught on. He was calling at you. I know. And typically what happens in a
Mr. Big Sting is that there's like this big come to Jesus moment where the Mr. big guy demands the person come clean
and confess because it's the only way the organization can protect him. But Raymond just keeps saying like, "I
didn't murder her. I didn't murder her." Even as the pressure builds and builds and builds and by the end of it, he is
legit saying to Mr. Big, "This doesn't add up. Like something's not right. The police are up to something. He doesn't
know how far that they'll go to get him to admit to killing Tina. So, he doesn't
confess. Not in the classic Mr. Big Way. No. But as part of the staying, they bug
his apartment. And on those tapes, he admits that he had [music] sex with Tina, which of course he had denied
before when he was speaking to police. According to Joanna Jolly's book, police also hear like through this bug. They
hear him talking to a young woman about Tina, saying that she quote got killed because we found out I found out she was
15 years old. End quote. >> So he killed Tina because he found out how young she was.
>> Well, so this is the thing like he never says who got killed or who killed her.
like he's very vague, equally as vague when he talks about being haunted by something and how he threw someone into
a body of water. And their surveillance also shows Raymond's interest in young girls. Like he would often bring young
indigenous girls back to his apartment, give them drugs in exchange for sex. In fact, he told one of them to be careful
and not overdose, or else he would wrap her up in a carpet and throw her in the river. And there is also tape of him
screaming at a woman that he was dating, saying that there's a little girl in a grave someplace, screaming at the top of
her lungs for him to finish the job. And he did finish the job. >> But that's still not an actual
confession. >> No, Raymond never says, "I killed Tina." But investigators feel that they have
enough to charge him with Tina's murder, which they do on December 9th of 2015. Raymond's trial begins just over 2 years
later in January of 2018. And while they don't have an eyewitness [music] or DNA
evidence or a smoking gun, what they have is a pile of circumstantial evidence [music] pointing to Raymond,
the only person they know of who had both the means and the motive to kill Tina. But I'm going to cut right to the
chase. It's not enough. After closing statements, the jury deliberates for less than a day before finding Raymond
not guilty. And the public's [music] response to the verdict is one of outrage. And much of
it is directed at the complete failure of this system that everyone feels like should have protected Tina, but like
failed her right up until the very end. [music] Raymond Cormier died in 2024, taking with him any secrets he might
have been harboring. But in the wake of this tragedy, many people have tried to come together and fill in the gaps that
were found, where the system did fail. A volunteer group called Drag the Red was
formed to drag the Red River, searching for bodies or evidence of like even other murder investigations. The Bearcan
Patrol was reignited to help organize searches and crime prevention in Winnipeg's North End. and an
organization called Endinoway, which is dedicated to supporting indigenous youth
in urban settings. They launched a program called Tina's Safe Haven, which provides safe places for young people to
do things like laundry or eat a hot meal and just like be a kid in a safe space.
We've made a donation to the organization. And if you would like to join us or learn more, we're going to
have the information to that organization in the episode description. Hi, crime junkies. [music]
Thank you guys for joining us for this story and for caring about these cases with us. And before we go, we wanted to
show you a little bit of behind the scenes here at Audio Cheek offices. And we want to take a moment [music] to
thank our friends at Ashley for the furniture that they helped us update our offices with. [music] You guys know we
spend a lot of time in the office. It's where basically every Crunky episode is created from start to finish. And having
a space that feels comfortable and functional and truly us has made [music] such a difference.
>> Yeah. Currently, we are in one of our lofts that we often use for content capture. It's what you might see on
social media. And working with Ashley, we have really been able [music] to bring a new look to this space. So,
we're talking cozy chairs, this comfy [music] couch, and pieces that don't just look great on camera, but work for
real life, too. So, huge thanks to Ashley for helping us bring our vision to life.
>> Yeah, we can't wait to share more of the space with you [music] all soon. But for
now, we have some more content to capture. Bye. Reminder, you can find all the source
material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com. You can follow us on Instagram,
crimejunkiepodcast. [music] And we'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

Today, we unpack how 15-year-old Tina Fontaine had been failed by nearly every system designed to protect her, from child welfare agencies to police, in the weeks leading up to her death. After losing her father, Tina became increasingly vulnerable, cycling through shelters, police custody, and welfare services. Despite numerous opportunities for intervention, she was failed at every turn, and on August 17, 2014, her body was found in the Red River in Winnipeg, Manitoba. A chilling 911 call placed by Tina days before her death named a man later identified as Raymond Cormier- a man with a disturbing history and ties to Tina’s final days.

Join us as we explore how systemic failures contributed to her death, the investigation that followed, and the controversial trial that left many without closure and as we highlight the powerful grassroots efforts that emerged in the aftermath. These organizations include Drag the Red, The Bear Clan Patrol, and Tina’s Safe Haven- all working to protect Indigenous youth and advocating for missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls.

For even more stories like this one, join the Crime Junkie Fan Club today: https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/fanclub?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=episode_description&utm_campaign=signupfanclub

Follow Crime Junkie: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/crimejunkiepodcast Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CrimeJunkiePodcast/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/CrimeJunkiePod Crime Junkie is created and hosted by Ashley Flowers.

About Ashley Flowers Ashley Flowers is the top female podcaster in the U.S. and the host of Crime Junkie, the #1 podcast among women and the #1 true crime podcast globally. As the Founder of audiochuck, she has built a top-tier podcast production company that has garnered over 2.6 billion downloads, captivating audiences with its gripping storytelling through 10+ chart topping podcasts. Ashley and her team are dedicated to creating responsible true crime content that respects victims and their families.

Follow Ashley: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ASHLEYFLOWERS/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/ash_flowers TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ashleyflowerscrimejunkie Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ashleyflowers.af/

Check out these other great crime channels: @kallmekris The Most Horrifying Cold Case In Canadian History https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPPo2zRXJCs @KendallRae The Jackie Vandagriff Murder Case: A Night Out Turned Deadly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJe4TQCaRbU @bellafiori The Twisted Case of Dr. John Schneeberger https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQ2_nrz0Z0I @annieelise Did Her Own Teenage Kids Plot Her Murder?! | What Really Happened to Susan Bailey? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56QdP3Vf4q8

Brief Summary

Tina Fontaine's tragic murder highlights systemic failures in protecting Indigenous youth and the challenges in solving her case.

Key points

The Ripple Effect of Homicides. Homicides impact countless lives, as seen in Tina Fontaine's tragic story.
Tina's Disappearance. Tina Fontaine goes missing after a visit to her mother, raising concerns.
The Discovery of Tina's Body. A body is found in the Red River, leading to a shocking revelation.
Community Outcry. After Tina's death, the community demands action against violence towards Indigenous women.
The Call to 911. Tina calls 911 to report a stolen truck, revealing her connection to Sebastian.
The Discovery of Raymond Cormier. Police learn that the man they are looking for is actually Raymond Cormier, a known criminal.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

How did things go so wrong?

Introduction to Tina Fontaine's tragic story.

0:25WatchSep 3, 2025

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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