That Crime Of The Month | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

she kept saying three things i didn't mean to hurt my child i don't remember what happened i just got my period
[Music] about 30 years ago something started happening in courtrooms that caught the
world by surprise lawyers began to attribute criminal behavior to pms or premenstrual syndrome
the first time was in england a woman named sandy smith was found guilty of murdering her co-worker but her lawyer
argued she was suffering from pms and the judge gave her probation for murder then shortly after the pms defense was
tried out in the u.s in a case that pit scientists against feminists against lawyers
i'm phoebe judge this is criminal [Music] serious topic here folks she beat her kids and she blames her pms
should pms be used as a legal defense we'll find out take a break stay with us shirley was on the bed
passed out or in a state of semi-unconsciousness the child came in after specifically
being told not to come in the room because shirley was sick and couldn't take care of her kids that they had to
stay in the other room she came in and she jumped on her and she reacted in a reflective way
she said that the daughter said to her mommy you hit me shirley santos was 24 years old in 1981
a single mother with six kids in brooklyn this is her lawyer stephanie benson she herself
called the police and not only did she call the police she didn't have a phone she had to go to a neighbor to whom she
said look i just got my period and i think i might have hurt my child but if we're saying that pms at this point in
the early 80s wasn't in the lexicon why did she know to attribute something to that she didn't say pms she never
said pms this is what she knew happened to her at this time of the month and maybe it doesn't take a phd
for a woman to know why she feels crappy a few hours later santos was arrested court documents show that her
four-year-old child had bruises and welts her kids were taken away in 1981 lawyer stephanie benson was also
24 years old working for legal aid she was assigned to shirley santos did you had you done any research or reading or
anything on pms as a legal defense maybe as it related to the british cases beforehand or was this something just
came to you out of the blue it came to me out of the blue this is benson on mcneil lair that year
based on what she found benson felt she could correlate santos behavior with what doctors were learning about pms
there were cases of women whose symptoms were so severe they felt capable of hurting themselves or others
she filed a motion to dismiss the case outlining for the court all of the ways in which her client was quote a victim
of pms today we're used to women saying i have pms we haven't exactly moved beyond
stereotypes about women being crazy at that time of the month these jokes are everywhere even on
pretty forward thinking shows like modern family god they're gonna run everything no no we we just need to be
extra sensitive phil honey when do we need to leave whatever's good for you sweetie maybe 20 minutes
[Applause] whenever you're ready but back in the 80s and 90s it really was new and hard
to make sense of we are a responsible broadcast and we appreciate that point okay now let's get a man's point of view
here your comment i just was wondering if you'd open up the door for you know is a high testosterone level uh excuse
to rape somebody they have something called premenstrual syndrome what about post menstrual syndrome does that exist
not only was it totally out of left field to assert that a woman's period could be debilitating but it had very
problematic implications what would be the consequences if pms were admitted as a legitimate defense in court in your
view it's much more significantly a sword to be used against women than a shield for them this is barbara newman
one of the prosecuting attorneys in the santos case no woman could ever be trusted with any position of
responsibility including having children having the care and custody of children
this could justify assaults upon woman the man could say this woman was out of control i had to kill her and there's
the woman dead on the floor not in a position to refute it the santos case may have been the first in the u.s but
the other cases that got the public's attention made the diagnosis seem even more serious
like sandy smith in england we mentioned earlier she was charged with murder after she stabbed her co-worker
repeatedly or christine english who ran down her lover with her car and pinned him after the affair went south after
the two violent cases in england and now santos it looked like pms as a defense was gathering steam i became interested
because my branch chief at the time said i have met an endocrinologist and he claims that there are four women in his
practice who attempted suicide during the ludial phase of their menstrual cycle this is dr david rubino chair of
the department of psychiatry at the university of north carolina at chapel hill and founder of the women's mood
disorder clinic there today he specializes in the most severe form of pms it has its own name
premenstrual dysphoric disorder often just pmdd pms or pmdd is triggered by changes in reproductive hormones
estrogen or progesterone but that triggering occurs only in a subgroup of women a group of women who
are susceptible to hormone-induced mood changes and we don't understand exactly what causes that susceptibility
but it is a biologically triggered syndrome and we can demonstrate that i can take someone who has
pms pmdd and i can eliminate her syndrome by stopping her ovarian steroid secretion
and pmdd will go away so this is kind of the evidence that this isn't just all in her
head exactly well it's not really a diagnosis it's a social belief this is dr nada stotland she's a
psychiatrist in chicago specializing in women's mental health and was president of the american psychiatric association
from 2008 to 2009. if we really believe that are we going to screen every woman before she gets a responsible job
what about all the flight controllers and the pilots and the surgeons do you think seven percent of female
surgeons or five percent are disabled for several days a month i don't believe it
and i do have an objection to having this diagnosis listed as a psychiatric diagnosis without any
comparable investigation of the impact of male hormones on men why because women's hormones are used as
an excuse to think that women are unstable obnoxious you know we talked about at one point you know do you want a
woman to have the red telephone in the president's office that's a very dangerous and uh negative understanding
of women and and a denigration of their legitimate problems [Music] back in the 80s in brooklyn the santos
case got more and more complicated shirley santos totally undermined her own case when she told the tv reporter
it's not like i'm gonna get my period so bad i start wailing on my child it was a
mess it's still unclear whether she was pressured by the reporter or if she actually didn't believe her own defense
the lawyers made a deal santos pled guilty to a reduced charge down from felony assault to a simple harassment
violation not even a misdemeanor and she went home without her kids why don't you think this has been part
of the legal discourse since then you have to have a very special mixture so you have a woman
and women don't commit that many crimes a violent crime women don't commit that many violent crimes
i personally do not believe that pms causes murder again dr david rubino head of unc's women's mood disorder clinic i
do think that someone who has antecedent behavioral problems may experience further compromise of their
ability to regulate their behavior when they become increasingly symptomatic during the premenstrual
state but women with really severe pmdd do not kill people we talk to other scientists just ask
them could it actually be this bad they said yes in some rare instances pmdd could manifest itself so severely that a
woman would be taken out of her ordinary mental state and last year the american psychiatric
association put pmdd in their big book of mental disorders the dsm-5 they classified it as a depressive
disorder saying the move was based on strong scientific evidence so the science has evolved what remains
to be seen is whether or not public opinion has two okay before we go i just want to get a uh
give us a round of applause if you think that pms should be a valid legal defense
do you believe it [Applause] well i guess that that's that who thinks it should not be a valid legal defense
[Applause] [Music] criminal is produced by eric menno lauren spore and me special thanks to
katie davis julian alexander does our episode art if you like what we're doing you can
subscribe in itunes and if you like leave us a review we're on facebook and twitter at criminal show
this program is part of the prx stem story project made possible by the alfred p sloan foundation i'm phoebe
judge this is criminal

What does it mean when a woman commits a crime and attributes her actions to PMS? We revisit the first use of the “PMS defense,” in this country, back in 1981. What have we learned about the science of PMS since then? Last year, the American Psychiatric Association classified a form of PMS (Premenstrual dysphoric disorder, or PMDD) as a mental disorder in the DSM-V. How can the scientific community study severe premenstrual symptoms without perpetuating the utterly unscientific idea that menstruating women aren’t mentally competent or liable for crimes they commit?

We talk to lawyer Stephanie Benson who used PMS as a defense for her client Shirley Santos after Santos was charged with assault and endangering her children.

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode 9 originally published August 29, 2014 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-nine-that-crime-of-the-month-8-29-2014

Brief Summary

The episode examines PMS as a legal defense, featuring cases like Shirley Santos and discussing its implications and medical perspectives.

Key points

The PMS Defense in Court. The controversial use of PMS as a legal defense began in the 1980s, sparking debates about women's mental health and legal accountability.
Shirley Santos' Case. In 1981, Shirley Santos was charged with child abuse, claiming PMS affected her actions. Her case raised questions about women's mental health in legal contexts.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Should PMS be used as a legal defense?

0:46WatchSep 1, 2022

Tension

45/ 100Some tension

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