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I remember there was uh one particular classroom Mrs Kramer allowed this girl to do current event articles on my
father it was really bad and my mother went crazy and she went and confronted the teacher
um I don't think she ever really liked me Mrs Kramer I surmised to this day that she didn't
like me because of my family this is John Francis Jr he was born in 1960 on the North Shore of Long Island
his father John Sonny Francis was the longtime underboss for the Colombo crime family one of the so-called five
families of New York there's never been a guy like Sunny an FBI agent once said there'll never be
another guy like Sunny The Last of a Dying Breed what type of father was your father like
what type of father was he I'm glad you asked because as a daddy was a really great guy I know he loved me playing
baseball and I was I remember this because it was really important to me but my first year of baseball this is
the one of the best times of my dad I remember I was really bad my first year and I made the last out of the last play
and I hit the ball and I was so happy I hit it I Ran So Fast the first base but I I got called
out because I was out and I was all depressed like I thought I'd get my one hit and I thought my dad would be really
upset because you know I always thought he wanted me to be this great player and
I'm sure he did but when I was walking back with my head down he said hey son don't feel bad he
says you got better all year long he says is she the way you hustled on that that's all that matter you made contact
that's a start next year we'll we'll make more contact and I was surprised and these days I often wonder if it was
me so much that I wanted to please him I thought he wanted different things for me than he actually did
John's father Sonny Francis was born in Naples in 1917 and grew up in New York City
Sonny's father Carmine ran a bakery in Brooklyn where reportedly sometimes he put people he didn't like into the oven
Sonny was arrested for the first time when he was 21 for assault and he was discharged from the Army during World
War II because of quote homicidal tendencies then according to Life Magazine he fought and murdered his way into the
mafia's front rank he hung out with Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr that the Copacabana nightclub
in 1967 he went to prison for bank robbery and has been in and out ever since he's never been convicted of murder but
he once said I killed a lot of guys you're not talking about four five six ten in that same conversation reported by
prosecutors he explained how best to dispose of a dead body it involved the microwave a kiddie pool and patience
because he lived on Long Island people said Sonny francese brought the mafia to the suburbs
[Music] what was life like around the house well my dad would leave after we left
for school and he'd always be home for dinner um and he'd always take us to work
when he had off so we generally would go into Manhattan he had offices there generally music business and
entertainment field is what I thought was his job Sonny francese did a lot of business
with a lot of different people sometimes in the music business also the film industry he helped fund The Texas
Chainsaw Massacre and deep throat he had a financial interest in various nightclubs restaurants and strip clubs
but assistant U.S attorney Christina posa once said he's never held an honest job for a day in his life and is largely
responsible for the glamorization of the mafia over the past Century I remember kids would always say from like
fourth grade on that I was the richest kid in school um we never needed for anything
if he needed one baseball glove he'd get three when he was a kid he got a dirt bike and
when he got older he got a new car every year sometimes more than one a year John told us he spent about eighteen
thousand dollars a month on clothing except for one month when he spent Thirty one thousand
he never left the house with less than fifteen hundred cash in his pocket this was the late 70s
did you ever watch The Sopranos of The Godfather yes what do you think about the way that
organized crime the mafia is portrayed in those shows well I think they The Godfather did an
accurate job of little things people don't notice but uh but The Sopranos did at times what they
over I it was phenomenal I love The Sopranos but there are some things that are silly
I don't remember exactly what but it was just too over the top sometimes uh like
Tony keeping his money in his house that doesn't happen uh if they keep some money but not those kind of amounts
money because you know you're going to get arrested someday you know or they may come and raid you growing up John
knew his family had money he knew his father was somebody that people talked about but he didn't really know what was
going on until his older brother sat him down and told him the honest truth about
the family business and I mean he explained everything about captains the boss the the underboss the
conciliary and the I'm just kidding Aaron it's like it's like the minute he said that
I felt like I belonged like all these years I have been fi like confused about something and
when he said that I liked it [Music] and from that moment on I was and he was like talking like this is our life
so I assumed okay this is my life too I guess John started hanging around with his
brother and father and other Colombo crime family Associates he called them all uncles
and he felt grown up he remembers that people would get out of their way they could get into any
club they wanted then he started to actually do some work for his father Sunny had too much FBI
surveillance on him but John was still young he could move around more freely he would deliver messages
he says often they were in code and he didn't know what they meant he remembers that sometimes the message
would be about vegetables whether something was a good vegetable or not where it was grown
by the time he was 18 John says he was working as a Bag Man collecting and dropping off bags of extortion money
I I became a a bit of a bully I took advantage of things because I could it was more like you know it it just
happened and I played the part and I I realized well around that time I remember the one thing that I uh that my
dad actually asked me he said I'll give you anything you want on this Earth and one thing I'm going to tell you is
never embarrass us don't ever embarrass us and I I remember those words [Music] on June 4th 2008 Sunny francies along
with fellow Colombo family members was indicted on charges of racketeering conspiracy robbery extortion narcotics
trafficking and Loan sharking it obviously wasn't Sonny's first time in court not by a long shot
what made this trial different was the presence of one FBI informant in particular
an informant who'd worn a wire for eight months and could talk to Sunny the way few
others could I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal [Music] I'm a rat I mean I I am but there's a
little difference uh doesn't make it better but there's a difference I didn't do it to get out of
trouble um I did it because our way of life is a bad way of life I felt I owed something
John's testimony against his father was big news headlines like Mafia Boss faces prison
after sun breaks Code of Silence John was repeatedly called a turncoat and a rat
one New York Post headline read rat's my boy what is that like to tell to be telling
your story you know to the outside world you know a lot has been said about you by the media right A
lot of people have said talked about you but what is it like for you to be talking about your experiences on the
other side well this is odd for me he's been through a lot he first went into rehab when he was 25.
he says he would disappear and then show up at his family's house a mass now my mom would let me in the house but you
don't want to go in the house with my mother while I'm stoned and high she was a terror you'd rather be around my
father my mom wasn't afraid of anything she'll blow your high and you're drunk it was
terrible he stole money from his family says he once stole his sister's car like
something would happen I'd get arrested I'd get sick I I'd come home to my mother's house and
then I'd start a period of let's say a seemingly reconstruction only to drink or get high again
I contracted HIV and diagnosed in 1990 I know I got it in there before 86 because
I stopped using needles in 1986 and so for 11 years of my life and I'm going to this 12-step program I can mention a
name I'm not supposed to it's Anonymous but I could say 12-step okay so I'm going in this 12-step program from 1985
till 2001 and I'm drinking and getting high the whole time through it change when he met a guy at a meeting
his name was Daryl he was never afraid to tell me you are so sick he'd tell me I was sick in the head that I don't even
understand anything and why are you dressing like your 41 year old grown man you're dressing like a rap star at 41
years old and he'd just say all this stuff and somehow all of this came bearing down on me
applied for Section 8 Housing and for disability and he stayed sober then in 2004 he got a call from the FBI
he says it's common for FBI agents to call members of mob families and try and get them to flip just part of the
business but on this day maybe because his life was different John listened the FBI agent asked John if he'd been
willing to gather information about his father sunny I said okay [Music] John Francis was approached by the FBI
in 2004 to provide information about his father and for much of 2005 he wore a wire and
recorded any conversations he could what what was the evidence that you provided oh there was like 400 hours of
tape in a March 10 2005 recording Sunny school did John for failing to collect an overdue extortion payment he said I
would have grabbed Carmine and told him look you rap bastard go out there and get the money and bring it here and if
he doesn't give it to you leave him on the floor John also recorded conversations between
sunny and other Colombo family Associates about extorting strip clubs and a pizza place
during one someone says you can't go in and bang their brains out you got to make yourself known you got to be nice
and easy John also got his father on tape admitting he was the underboss of the Colombo family
during Sunny's 2010 trial John explained why he became an FBI informant he said I
wanted to change my life they would provide a means for me to change my life Sunny's defense attorney suggested that
the reason John informed on his elderly father was because the government was paying for his HIV treatments
he did it for the money the lawyer said there's no other reason John's brother called it a betrayal and
told reporters the family is taking it very hard Sonny francese was sentenced to eight
years in prison he was 93. John's testimony also led to the conviction of three other Colombo family
Associates did you think to yourself um what will my father think of me I know my father loves me
that's just the kind of guy he is he may hate what I did but he just takes everything in stride
he's a my sister Lorraine once said to me when I was a kid that my father our father has no
cognitive dissonance he was a gangster and he thought like a gangster he never left that mentality
[Music] you want to know I uh I know this may sound crazy me and my dad had a an understanding
that no matter what we don't let anyone kill anyone in our family I do know that there probably are people
who would kill me and when you entered witness protection tell me the first steps and where you
went and who you became hey this is kind of important to me because the government
all through this they weren't perfect but I always knew where I stood clearly I know that that was never the case with
my mom or my dad the United States government was very fair um it's a very weird thing they throw your
phone in a sink what you standing there and you watch it explode or whatever it jumps around all
your pictures and everything that's difficult but they do prepare you there's a psychological evaluation you go through
um and then you go to a I went they took me to a a place uh and I stood there about
four months you stay by yourself you travel with a a travel ID different name it's not your uh station
or your permanent it's transitory and they give it to you on the plane and then they take it back from you when
you get in the darn Hotel so now it's pretty scary because I'm staying in a hotel with no ID and
and they did make constellations for me to uh they said I I asked them for I think I asked them for two things that I
didn't lose my disability or Medicare and that I could go to a a 12-step meetings any time I needed to
Oklahoma City and initially twelve hundred dollars a month to live on then he says he was sent to Dallas and
then sent to South Carolina he was there for two years but he got scared he told a friend too
much and so they moved him again to Austin and then in 2008 he was sent to Indianapolis
the government asked you to keep your same story just don't say the locations or be
specific so it was very easy for it to fill right in with uh with him from the yeah I'm
from New York sometimes people ask it is your dad home is your mother home why don't you speak to them and
so I just said I uh my family's not happy with me from prison at 100 years old there are some newspaper stories about
his release and on one of them someone posted a comment saying they knew John and that he was living in Indianapolis
John says he was told he needed to relocate immediately but he said no he was sick of moving around
he left the witness protection program he's been out for a year now have you um have you spoken to your father
no I haven't do you think you will before he dies well it's a funny thing I tried
um when I was in the uh the program I tried to write a letter and I think the program said at first
they allowed me to send letters to my mama and dad and I did and he never spoke to me well my mom
said he got the letter and he said he loves you maybe she was just saying that um I don't know I haven't gotten any
response uh from him do you do you have a relationship with your brother with your other siblings
I think within our family and uh the neighborhood people we know would kind of shun them if they knew
they were talking to me or close with me it's hard for people to forgive or well
who the hell am I thinking I would have never forgiven me either so I understand how they think
and that's just the way it is and you know my my brothers and sisters have kids and their kids come from those
neighborhoods and have a family you know our cousins and the people they know it it might bring
some unwanted difficulties to them but I think personally my brothers and sisters
love me I'm sure we would get along well if we were together whether they said it or not
[Music] we talked with him in his home in Indianapolis his life now is different from how he
grew up no fancy cars no expensive clothes he lives in a small apartment with his cat
it's funny to think about the life that you've had and then think about you here in this
little house in Indianapolis tucked away are you scared sometimes honestly yeah yeah every now and then that gets to me
when we were finishing up this episode I sent John a text message I asked what if anything the witness
protection program told him when he decided to leave here's what he replied three days after I signed out the
assistant U.S district attorney called me and asked if I wanted to go back in the program
she also said if I had any problems to please call her that they would always be as helpful to
me as they could but to let them know if anything didn't seem right they also implied that it would not be a
good idea to go to New York that there's a very good chance that people are still looking to hurt me
John doesn't seem to want to go back to New York and to his old life anyway he likes Indianapolis he named his cat
Indy but he still talks and worries about what people might think of him and what
he did I I think it's hard to talk about I think if people see my life if people
see my life they might understand better uh look I I think it's really good to set a
goal go out and become successful I like that I don't know if that's this is better for me I'm built like
this better I fit better here [Music] criminal is created by Lauren Spore and me our senior producer is Nadia Wilson
audio mix by Michael Rayfield and Rob Byers Julian Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of
Criminal you can see them at this criminal.com where on Facebook and Twitter at criminal show
criminals recorded in the studios of North Carolina public radio wunc we're a proud member of radiotopia from PRX a
collection of the best podcasts around we'll be back next year I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal
[Music] foreign [Music]

John “Sonny” Franzese was once described as “largely responsible for the glamorization of the Mafia over the past century.” He’d been active in the Colombo crime family since the 1960s. And then, when he was 93, he was given an 8-year sentence. The evidence that helped convict him came from the last person he expected to wear a wire.

Music in the episode “Tarte Tatin” by Blue Dot Sessions “Myrian” by Blue Dot Sessions “Story Four - Put it Down” by Blue Dot Sessions “Farsical - Slow Driver” by Blue Dot Sessions “Skeptic” by Podington Bear “Holo” by Blue Dot Sessions “In My Head” by Podington Bear “Sepia” by Podington Bear

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode 105 originally published 12/21/2018 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-105-protection-12-21-2018

Brief Summary

John Francis Jr discusses his life as the son of a mobster and becoming an FBI informant against his father.

Key points

The Last of a Dying Breed. An FBI agent once said there'll never be another guy like Sonny.
A Father's Love. John recalls a pivotal moment in baseball with his father.
Turning Informant. John's testimony against his father made headlines and changed his life.
The Cost of Betrayal. John's decision to inform on his father led to family turmoil.
Life After Witness Protection. John reflects on his new life in Indianapolis, away from his past.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I know he loved me playing baseball.

John reflects on his father's love for him during childhood.

1:05WatchJan 21, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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