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Carrie Elliott was 69 years old she was living by herself her husband had died the year before someone knocked on the
door she had the door chained actually opened it just a little bit and then they kicked the door and and pushed her
onto the couch and um and raped her and then dragged her to the bedroom and raped her again
at 9 22 PM a police officer patrolling the neighborhood noticed her broken door and by 9 51 PM Carrie Elliott was at the
hospital this was in the small North Carolina town of Hickory she described her attacker to the police an
African-American man around 35 years old six feet tall 200 pounds or more with facial hair and wearing a green shirt
that he removed during the attack the police put together a sheet containing six photographs of potential
suspects Carrie Elliott was white all six men on the sheet were African-American
she identified the man in position two in 1987 October the 20 fourth on a Saturday
that said the morning I got up with taking a shave and I was living with Brenda Smith at the time
this is Willie Grimes Brenda Smith was his girlfriend they left the house and spent the day running errands Willie
didn't drive so in the early evening Brenda dropped him off at their friend Rachel Wilson's house it was a place
where people often went to have dinner and play cards Brenda didn't stay she had to work the
third shift at a nursing home that night so I stayed there and talk played a little car and broke
I guess we sat down until 11th letter 20 minutes to free up that night drinking and just talking and playing
cards and doing the next morning after Brenda Smith finished her overnight shift she picked
Willie up from Rachel Wilson's house they spent the rest of the weekend quietly and on Monday morning Willie
went to work Carrie Elliott had a conversation with one of her neighbors Linda McDowell
about the attack Linda McDowell thought she might know a man who matched that description they
talked about what he looked like but Linda didn't tell Carrie a name she said she would only tell it to the police
after that conversation Carrie Elliott called the police with some more details about her attacker she said he had a
mole near his mouth shortly after Linda McDowell also called the police she said she had some information but
first wanted to know if there's any reward money available the officer confirmed that there was a
thousand dollar reward and 20 minutes later Linda McDowell showed up at the police station
she told officers that she'd seen a man wearing a green shirt in the neighborhood on the night of the rape a
man with a mole on his face and that his name was Willie Grimes the police revised their sheet of six
photographs of potential suspects they replaced the photograph of the man in position two the man Carrie had
originally identified with a photograph of Willy Grimes and when I got home that toothless
Brenda Smith told me that the police just had been there looking for a minute so they had a bunch of wants for me and
I see it for what I know I ain't did nothing she said I don't know what they were for
and so I asked her well she kept me to the police station to find out what they were for
I was going to the police station or in your mind were you thinking I've got to go clear this up
well that's what I was growing up there to find out what it was and let them know that I hadn't did
anything because I knew I hadn't did anything so that's one reason I wasn't afraid to
go up there this was on Tuesday more than two days since the attack and on that day Willie
Grimes happened to be wearing a green shirt he waited for the police officer who had
been looking for him Officer Steve hunt to arrive when he got there he came in and I asked him what was he looking for
me for and he said he was in big trouble you know did a lot of bad things like that and I said what
I know I ain't did nothing I know I ain't did nothing I take a lot of tests to test or do
whatever you want me to do because I know I ain't did nothing they say I'm telling you one more time
you're in big trouble be quiet because everything you said can be used against you and this and that
so I ain't said nothing else and he told them to fingerprint me and book me that what they did
he was charged with two counts of rape and kidnapping at the initial hearing Carrie Elliott was in the courtroom and
she had to be that uh identified me or this and that what do you remember do you remember when she identified you
wanting to I feel like I would want to scream out it no that's not me you've got the wrong
guy no not at the time because uh the way she identified me you know I thought in a way we're going to go
pretty pretty smooth because uh they asked her did she see the man that attacked her in the
courthouse and she said I don't really know that looked like him over there so then you know
I still feel like you know everything was going to go pretty smooth because if she knew it was me or this man she
wouldn't have said that looked like him she would have said that is him sitting right there
Willie Grimes was kept in custody until his trial a month passed in jail and then another and another
he was certain that in the meantime the police would find the man who did rape Carrie Elliott and he would go home
he was sure of it I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal [Music] in July of 1988 his trial began at the
Catawba County District Court eight people testified that they'd been with Willie during the night four people
testified to Willie's non-violent character but the prosecution had one piece of
evidence that seemed foolproof a hair that had been found at the scene of the crime Willie Grimes was actually the one
who asked for the hair to be examined he thought it would prove he'd never been in Carrie Elliott's apartment
an agent from North Carolina State Bureau of Investigation examined the hair microscopically and testified that
it could be a match for a piece of Willie Grimes hair when further questioned he said that it
was a match for Willie Grimes or that if it wasn't Willie Grimes it had to be someone of the same race whose hair had
the same microscopic characteristics microscopic hair examination has since been replaced by DNA testing which is a
lot more accurate some experts have since called hair comparison junk science the jury deliberated for less than two
hours eleven of The Twelve jurors were white when the verdict was really I think it was
so looking for them to say not get the book when it is reading they said get the
it just hit me and it just felt like I got real hot like I wanted to faint or something though
and that's when he said that uh I'm not going to sentence him today I'm going to wait until Monday we'll come
back on Monday to get him the citizen on Monday he was sentenced to life in prison for two charges of first degree
rape and one charge of kidnapping well at first when I got my time I got so I couldn't sleep or anything
staking and worrying about the situation that I was in and knowing that I wasn't going to get
no help after the verdict was read Willie's lawyer immediately asked the judge for
access to evidence gathered at the scene that wasn't used in the trial fingerprints were found in Kerry
Elliott's apartment investigators had taken them off fruit from a bowl in her kitchen and they've been tested against
Willie grime's fingerprints they were not a match but somehow this wasn't a red flag
investigators speculated that if the prints weren't Willy Grimes then they must belong to the victim but they never
even checked Willie's lawyer wanted to run the fingerprints through an FBI database he
also wanted someone to test them against Carrie Elliot's the prosecutor said he was quote kicking a dead horse the judge
said he would think it over but then nothing happened Willie's defense attorney didn't follow
up the judge retired and Willie just sat in prison [Music] for the hardest time of day is
[Music] at night when you get ready to go to bed when they call bedtime and everybody have to get
in bed and then you'd have doing all that night no one to talk to her no one listen to or this and that because you
wouldn't like to talk or nothing you go to bed Willie worked in the prison kitchen then
moved to the bakery and finally to the laundry he was transferred from one prison to the next constantly bouncing
from one side of the state to the other moving with no warning and no information about where he was headed
what's Thanksgiving and Christmas like in prison where it was real hard because you
didn't never see your peoples or whatever but it wasn't as hard if you were working in the kitchen because you have
to cook for those days and sometimes will make you feel pretty good try to make something real good for
those days to help the other inmates realized that they had something to look for or enjoy
themselves or something like that but but Leah it was real hard on you yourself Willie was in prison when his mother
died and many of his siblings he spent years dealing with debilitating insomnia and depression and then he got prostate
cancer he never stopped writing letters to anyone he could think of asking them to
look at his case and I went to reaching out to a lot of different lawyers a lot of different
show that was on TV and this and that and riding clemences and things never cook and no kind of help
So eventually I felt like I wasn't going to never get out of there and never get
nowhere you know he was given the opportunity to go home he would just admit to sexually
assaulting this woman and he would not do it he would not go through the program in prison that it would have
allowed him to be paroled and and he actually said I'd rather stay in prison attorney Chris Mumma first heard about
Willie Grimes in 2003. she's the executive director of a non-profit called the North Carolina Center on
actual innocence and um you could just tell from Willie's writing that there was something there
but then looking at the case looking at the transcript and seeing all the red flags that we see in wrongful
convictions microscopic hair comparison a very very shaky witness or victim identification
um it's very strong Alibi evidence so a lot of red flags in the case and so we set
to work trying to find evidence to prove his innocence because a lot of times it
takes that physical evidence particularly in a rape case so trying to find the the rape kit or the sheets or
clothing or fingerprints so we we asked for anything that they had that we might
be able to use to prove his innocence those requests went to law enforcement they went to the district attorney's
office and always came back with the same response that there was nothing left that everything had been destroyed
thank you without the rape kit and the fingerprints it was going to be hard to prove that Willy's case deserved a
review by now Willie had been in prison for more than 15 years but then a newly formed organization
called the North Carolina innocence inquiry commission agreed to take a look and you know hate to say it but somebody
finally got up out of their chair and actually did what they would call a thorough search and that's how they
found the fingerprints so that the commission didn't even have to go in and do a search the fingerprints were found
just by somebody in the office looking and what did the fingerprints show the fingerprints were run through the
the automated indexing system that can be used now keeps track of everyone's fingerprints and those fingerprints
matched Albert Turner and Albert Turner actually had been an original suspect in
the case and lived or was staying in that neighborhood um had quite the reputation and uh
you know he he didn't confess to the rape but he his story changed and developed and trying
to come up with the reason why his fingerprints would have been on they were the fingerprints were actually
collected from fruit and the victim's home so why his fingerprints would have been on that fruit
why was Willie Grimes ever even a suspect where the Grimes became a suspect because of that informant his name would
never have been brought up otherwise when Chris Mumma refers to the informant she means Linda McDowell the woman who
was paid a thousand dollars for supplying the name Willie Grimes to police and it's interesting Albert Turner's
picture was actually in the first lineup That Carrie Elia was shown because he was a suspect and but Carrie Elliott had
described this person as having an afro in the picture they used in the lineup of Albert Turner had his hair was
plaited so it was in cornrows and very flat so um she just she didn't pick him if you
if you put the pictures of Albert Turner and Willie Grimes side by side it is quite striking for someone who's not who
wears a cross race identification what have you learned about the problems with cross race identification so cross race
identification is it's not a racial issue it's just a comfort issue we are more comfortable identifying people we
are familiar with that are in our communities that we spend a lot of time with so we we can recognize the
difference in features for people we're comfortable with so whether it's black identifying white or white identifying
Asian or Asian identifying black when you don't spend as much time with with someone from another race it it the
features blend a little more and it becomes more difficult for identification by 2012 it was clear that microscopic
hair comparison was unreliable that fingerprints from the scene had not matched Willie but did match Albert
Turner and that the whole photo ID process had been problematic from the start the innocent inquiry commission sent the
case to a panel of judges for review had been 24 years since Willie first went into the Hickory police station and
offered to take a lie detector test it didn't even take the panel of Judges 30 minutes to make their decision well I
was to laugh when hear about it because I was out working I was working on work release
who they're eating and when I got in they were telling me you a free man you're a free man to impose you innocent
you're down about you innocent I didn't know nothing about what they were talking about and this and that but
when I seen it on TV T is what they're really not my eyes and this and that and I went I wanted to be by myself to
because I want nobody to see me crying that's doing this or doing that but I wouldn't cry for being sad it was
just being crying for being so happiness and that because all that time I was telling them
that I was innocent the D.A didn't even offer any closing arguments he just apologized
Willie Grimes was 67 years old you know uh you don't seem mad why because we Graden and
keeping stuff ball up inside of you don't do nothing but make you a person that you not
it'll make you get Bella and do things that you she wouldn't normally do and whole and Grudge and whole and Hate
it's a doing number making you being a worse person than you eat us we see that actually a lot meaning
Willie's case he's just a forgiving gentle soul but the longer someone is in prison uh actually the less bitter they
are when they get out because they have to let go of the anger in order to survive and so
um you know there were plenty of years that Willie was in prison that he was angry and bitter and depressed
but by the time he unfortunately it takes that long and by the time you get out you're just you just want to be free
and not have all that anger bear down on you foreign [Laughter] Lawndale North Carolina about 10 miles
from where he grew up but he doesn't really know many people there anymore oh when I came up here I went uh
searching for houses and uh I went through riding around and I saw this house I was living in Gastonia at
the time and what I liked it about the house because it had a tin roof and it reminded me of when I
was growing up we were growing up in the old house with 10 Tops on it and it was out and by itself wasn't too
close to houses and I don't like to be too close to in the houses he answered the door wearing an orange
dress shirt he's tall with graying hair he's 71 now we sat at his kitchen table he speaks so softly and gently that I
kept trying to pull my chair closer which didn't seem to bother him or if it did he was too polite to say anything
I've been laying back and everything free not the way I wanted and this and that before I
who had taken free of staff about four months ago I went and got passport and this and that just in case
if I get ready to take more than that where would you go where would you love to go we had a first place I'm going to
poke poke to Rico I had a good friend that was literally in there in prison he clearly every day I can
but I just wanted to go and see we're in prison didn't you yeah I lost mostly everyone except
one of my sisters I just had one simply living there I lost one two three Four Brothers
and I took the flowers in prison are you in close contact with your sister now yeah I see her mostly every
day I was over there earlier this morning yesterday but we try to we toss to one another
every day on the phone I go down there every other day regardless how many days how long exactly were you
in prison well I was in prison uh 24 years nine months in 23 days The View out the back window of his
house is of a Big Field leading down to dense Woods at this time of year the hay
has been cut and has rolled into big Bales which Mark the countryside right before we left he walked us
outside so we could see the view of the mountains from the front lawn oh you can see them
oh yeah you can get out there in the yard them crease all the blocking it not cause
that all the leaves but most time leaves ain't down you can just stay and look at all
well it's a beautiful place I'd probably take care of it [Music] Carrie Elliott died in 1989.
Albert Turner died in 2016 before he could be prosecuted for her rape over the course of his life he'd been
charged with assault 23 times [Music] [Music] criminal is produced by Lauren Spore
Nadia Wilson and me audio mix by Rob Byers matild erfilino is our intern Julian Alexander makes original
illustrations for each episode of Criminal and there's a great book about Willie Grimes and this whole thing
called ghost of the innocent man by Benjamin racklin you can find out more on our website this is criminal.com
criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina public radio wunc we're a proud member of radiotopia
from PRX a collection of the best podcasts around and special thanks to adserc for providing their ad serving
platform to radiotopia I'm Phoebe judge this is Criminal [Music] thank you [Music]
from PRX

In 1988, a man in Hickory, North Carolina named Willie Grimes was sentenced to life in prison for raping and kidnapping a 69-year-old woman named Carrie Lee Elliot. He was convicted with evidence experts would later call “junk science.” It took him 24 years to convince someone to look at the evidence again.

Special thanks to Chris Mumma of the North Carolina Actual Innocence Center.

For more information, check out Ghost of the Innocent Man, by Benjamin Rachlin.

Music in the episode “Woodcut” by Sealadder “Paper Trail” by Blue Dot Sessions (original music) “The Blotter - Dirty Rhodes” by Blue Dot Sessions (original music) “Marble Chase” by Blue Dot Sessions “Forces” by Podington Bear “Floating in Space” by Podington Bear “The Envelope” by Blue Dot Sessions

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. https://link.chtbl.com/n33u0HsA

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Episode transcripts are posted on our website https://thisiscriminal.com/.

Episode 80 originally published 12/1/2017 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-80-photo-hair-fingerprint-12-1-2017

Brief Summary

Willie Grimes was wrongfully convicted of raping Carrie Elliott, later exonerated after 24 years in prison due to flawed evidence and misidentification.

Key points

The Attack on Carrie Elliott. Carrie Elliott, 69, is brutally attacked in her home, leading to a police investigation.
Willie's Arrest. Willie Grimes is arrested based on a witness's identification, despite his claims of innocence.
The Trial and Verdict. Willie Grimes is convicted based on flawed evidence and a problematic identification process.
Exoneration After 24 Years. Willie Grimes is finally exonerated after new evidence emerges, proving his innocence.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

I know I ain't did nothing.

Willie Grimes insists on his innocence when confronted by police.

5:03WatchJan 5, 2023

Tension

75/ 100High tension

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