Pappy | Criminal Podcast | Forensic Files

Brett Anderson: Generally the way I've drank Pappy in my life has been in the company of
someone who has a bottle squirreled away [laughs]. Sometimes under their coat, sometimes under the seat of their car. Phoebe Judge: Brett Anderson is the restaurant
critic for the Times-Picayune in New Orleans. Last year, he tried to buy a bottle of bourbon
called Pappy Van Winkle for a wedding gift. He knew it wasn't going to be easy. Pappy Van
Winkle is one of the hardest bottles of bourbon in the world to get your hands on. People camp
outside liquor stores when they know the small annual allotment is going to be released. And
then it's off the shelf in three minutes. Brett Anderson: I naively thought that I
would be able to just Google it. [Laughs.] And of course you can't, but that's how
stupid I was going in to all of this. Phoebe Judge: What do you mean? Why can't
you just Google it? You can Google, you can get anything, right? Brett Anderson: Well, I thought I'd just end up on some website and I'd pay some exorbitant amount
for a bottle of Pappy and it'd show up in the mail. But you can't, I don't believe, just legally
do that [laughs] as a seller. I've been in so many conversations where people are talking about
prices per bottle for Pappy that I thought that the marketplace would be more accessible. I found
out that it wasn't that accessible. Phoebe Judge: You'd think if there was one person who could track down a bottle of bourbon, it would be a restaurant critic in
New Orleans. But when it comes to Pappy, it doesn't matter who you are. You can't
get it — unless you're willing to be creative. Brett Anderson: I just assumed that I would have
to be willing to let it get a little sketchy if I wanted to get a bottle. Sometimes you
got to meet a guy in a parking lot somewhere. That's sort of what I figured I'd have to do.
In my head, I never imagined that it would get any sketchier than that. Even though it's black market
whiskey, it's still whiskey. It's still a legal product. We're not talking about heroin here.
Phoebe Judge: He asked all over town and eventually got the number of a guy in Mississippi
who said he had a bottle to sell. He had no idea who this guy was. And after a few text messages,
the guy just stopped responding. Brett Anderson: I'm willing to pay an exorbitant amount. In fact, I want that to be part of the narrative of this bottle, because I
want it to be a special bottle to give to someone. [Laughs.] You know what I'm saying? And even then,
I don't think I would've been able to get a bottle had I not had some pretty good
connections in the Southern food world. Phoebe Judge: Eventually a friend took pity on him and just gave Brett a bottle from his collection.
In any situation where demand radically outpaces supply, you might have to meet
a guy in a parking lot. You might spend two months' rent on a bottle of booze. We want what we want, even if we don't know why. And with this particular Kentucky bourbon,
laws about how and where we buy liquor have gone completely out the window, with smugglers making a
fortune, bar owners getting death threats, and in Kentucky, a small-town crime syndicate busted for,
"Illegal trafficking in spiritous liquor." It's like Prohibition all over again.
I'm Phoebe judge. This is Criminal. [Plucky, twangy guitar music.] Basically, if we wanted to find a guy to talk to us about Kentucky bourbon,
you're the guy to talk to us about it. Michael Veach: That's what they keep telling me.
Phoebe Judge: This is bourbon historian Michael Veach. Bourbon has been popular for as long as
I've been of legal drinking age. So I didn't know there was a time when it was seen as a
cheap drink, something you took down quickly to get drunk. But then in the late '70s,
things started to change for an unexpected reason. Scottish distillers started pushing
single-malt scotch onto American consumers. Michael Veach: Let's face it. As a bulk,
American consumers aren't very bright. So when they walk into a liquor store and they've been
hearing all about these single malt scotches and everything, they see this single barrel bourbon,
they say, "Oh, that must be the same type thing." Yeah. And it's cheaper. It's only $30 a bottle,
where the cheap-single malt scotches were $50. The expensive ones were $100. So we'll buy that and put it in there. And the idea behind it was, is that if we could
get people to try it once they'll want to buy it again, it'll be that good. And it worked.
Phoebe Judge: Today, bourbon is bigger than it's ever been. Helped along by Prohibition-style bars
that have opened all over the country. And Don Draper drinking a million old fashions didn't
hurt. Bourbon is having a moment. And right at the very top of the pyramid is Pappy Van Winkle.
One thing that makes Pappy Van Winkle different is that it's aged longer, for 15, 20, and 23 years.
Michael Veach: Retail, I think a bottle of Pappy 20-year-old is going for like $180 a
bottle. And the Pappy 23 is like $230. Phoebe Judge: Which is a lot of money, but it's not crazy in the world of bourbons. Michael Veach: Right. But the people that are
selling it, really, illegally, because unless you have a license to sell liquor,
if you sell a bottle of liquor, it's illegal. Phoebe Judge: So the people who buy the
$180 bottle and then Michael Veach: What they call "flipping it." Turn around and sell it to someone else. They're getting as much as $2,000,
$3,000 for that bottle. Phoebe Judge: Why? How? Michael Veach: Because people will pay that much just to say they got a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle.
Because everybody knows it's so hard to get. Phoebe Judge: It's hard to get because they just
don't make a lot of it. They distribute about 7,000 cases a year. Compare that with Jim Beam's seven million cases. Preston Van Winkle: I had a guy called
from Texas claiming to be a billionaire. Phoebe Judge: This is Preston Van Winkle.
The Pappy in the name Pappy Van Winkle was his great-grandfather. Preston Van Winkle: And he said he couldn't even get his hands on
any. He said he'd have an easier time buying Ferraris and Lamborghinis than a single bottle
of Pappy. That was kind of amusing to me. Phoebe Judge: Because it really doesn't matter,
right? This is one of the things where it doesn't matter if you have a billion dollars.
If it's not out there to get, no matter what money you have, you can't get it. Preston Van Winkle: Exactly. Julian Van Winkle III:
My grandfather, back before 1900, started working for a wholesale liquor dealer here
in Kentucky called W.L. Weller. Phoebe Judge: This is Julian Van Winkle III, Preston's father. Julian Van Winkle III: And he was about
18 years old when he started. So, gradually worked his way up in the business and ended up owning the
company with some other gentlemen. That's kind of where it started. My dad worked for him, and
I worked for my dad, now Preston works for me. Phoebe Judge: Pappy Van Winkle is now produced
by the Buffalo Trace Distillery, using the Van Winkle family recipe. Just to do this quickly,
the difference between whiskey and bourbon is that bourbon has to be made in America
with at least 51% corn. Whiskey doesn't. You might've heard the expression, "All bourbon
is whiskey, but not all whiskey is bourbon." There are three things that make Pappy Van Winkle
unique. Most bourbon is made with corn, rye, and barley, but Pappy Van Winkle is made with corn,
wheat, and barley. That's the first thing. Second, it's aged in barrels for a very long time.
And third, those barrels have to be approved by Julian, personally. Julian Van Winkle III: We describe it as it ages a little more gracefully. So it doesn't pick up
quite as much woody notes, many woody notes as a rye bourbon does. And it just tastes a
little different. And that seems to be a flavor profile that a lot of people like, so it was a
fun to age it a little longer, but the depth and the age definitely is a different product than
something that's younger, obviously. So it was not easy to get people to try something like that,
but eventually it has caught on. And now there are a lot of older whiskeys out there on the market.
Michael Veach: Julian will be the first one to tell you that a lot of his success is blind
luck. Phoebe Judge: Michael Veach. Michael Veach: Just being in the right place at the — when he first came out with the Pappy 20 year old, I remembered talking to him
and he's like, "I'm releasing this. I don't know if it's going to fly or not." He says, "I may
be losing my shirt on this." But he didn't. Phoebe Judge: Aged bourbons may have caught on,
but the real money being made off Pappy Van Winkle isn't going to the Van Winkles. It's
in the black market. Some people we talked to called it, "the secondary market," or "gray
market," because bourbon itself isn't illegal. But whatever you want to call it, business is booming.
There's a website called Bottle Blue Book that tracks going rates. It shows that if you had a 2009 bottle of Pappy 23 in your house, you could sell it to someone
else for $2,280. That's an 800% mark-up. Julian Van Winkle III: People buy it and
hoard it and sell it on the secondary market, which is not something we promote at all,
but it's just something that happens. It's hard. There's just no way for us to control that.
Phoebe Judge: I wonder if you have a lot of people, both of you, I guess, trying to cozy up to you. A lot of old friends coming out of the woodwork, asking if you have
a bottle laying around. Preston Van Winkle: That happens from time to time. Julian Van Winkle III: And they're
our best friends all of a sudden. So it's human nature and that's the way things are, but it
is kind of humorous to see how that works. News Anchor: The 20-year-old Pappy Van Winkle,
often regarded as one of the finest bourbons in the world — and one of the hardest to
get — has been stolen. According to the Franklin County Sheriff, 195 bottles — 65 cases — of the
rare 20-year-old bourbon was stolen from Buffalo Trace Distillery. The distillery
reported the heist yesterday. [Fades out.] Phoebe Judge: In October of 2013, 65 cases
went missing from the warehouse. No sign of forced entry, no security cameras. Detectives had nothing
to work with. The Pappy was just gone. Vanished without a trace. Rumors started floating around
the bourbon blog scene that the theft was so well executed it had to have been an inside job. Some
speculated that it could have been orchestrated by the Van Winkles themselves, a way to keep Pappy
in the news. They nicknamed it Pappy-Gate. Michael Veach: It really annoys me when I hear
people say, "Well, he just did this for publicity or something." Because, no, he didn't. He didn't
need the publicity. He doesn't have enough whiskey to supply his market now, so why would he want
to create an artificial theft shortage to make it even worse on him? Yeah. Believe me. I've been
in Julian's office. He gets a lot of phone calls of people complaining because they can't get his
product, and he would love to be able to supply it to everybody. But that's the problem with bourbon,
and particularly a 20-year-old bourbon. It's not a product that, "Oh, well you've got a shortage.
I'll make more." Okay, you make more, but it's not ready for 20 years. You have to be a fortune
teller to know how much you're going to sell. Phoebe Judge: So you think that anyone who says
Julian did this did because— Michael Veach: They're just being stupid. Sorry if I offend anyone, but it's the truth. You're just being stupid if you think that.
Phoebe Judge: But it did drive demand big time, didn't it? Michael Veach: The demand was already there. All it did was give him another headache, and believe
me, he was pissed, [laughs] to put it mildly. Phoebe Judge: It's funny. This coveted bourbon has
become something of a headache for just about everyone. The Van Winkles, law enforcement,
would-be buyers — but we learned that the most miserable people in this equation are bartenders.
We talked with a lot of them for this story, and you could just see their irritation the minute the words "Pappy Van Winkle" came out of my mouth. They're just
completely sick of people asking for it. Jeremy Johnson: The first question out
of almost everyone's mouth is, "Well do you have any Pappy?" Phoebe Judge: This is Jeremy Johnson, owner of Meta Bar in Louisville.
Jeremy Johnson: And it's really, really wonderful bourbon. It's absolutely fantastic. But this is so out of hand that ... It's not that it's the best whiskey,
it's that it's the hardest-to-find whiskey. Phoebe Judge: Because Pappy is so hard to get,
bars can pretty much charge whatever they can get away with. We heard $60, $70,
$100 for a single two-ounce pour. But the problem with having it in your bar is that everyone knows you have it in your bar. Jeremy Johnson: You know, having that stuff on
your shelf on one hand can make you look really good in certain people's eyes who've been looking
for it. In another way, when they come in kind of tipsy already, and they're trying to get you to
illegally sell them a half a bottle, and then they get upset that you're like, "All right,
well if I was going to do that, which I wouldn't, I would have to sell it to you for this much."
And they're like, "Well, I can't believe this." It's like, "Well, sitting on my shelf it's worth
so much more than it is in your house. So I don't understand why you don't get this."
Amy Fisher: Yeah. Phoebe Judge: Here's Amy Fisher. She's the bar manager at Jeremy's bar. Amy Fisher: I'd say it's a lot of guys that come
in and they're from New York, let's say, and it's quite possible that they're going to try
and turn a profit on it or put it in a bar somewhere and mark up the price a whole lot.
And they get really pushy. Phoebe Judge: Which is illegal. Jeremy Johnson: Oh, absolutely. Amy Fisher: Yeah.
Jeremy Johnson: It's interesting, because I feel like this doesn't happen to me that often, and I
don't think I close as much as you do, but also what's interesting to me is how pushy they get.
And with Amy, she absolutely ... She helps make the rules. So she knows exactly what to say and
exactly how to put these guys in their place, but they can get really pushy and kind of try
to strong arm my other bartenders, and I can't ... I'll get texts — and they know that I'm not
going to do it — but what'll happen is these douchebags will be like, "Text your boss, text
him right now. Let me hear that your boss doesn't want you to do it." That's that's when I get those
weird texts at like 12:30 at night or 1 in the morning, and I'm like, "No, just tell him no,
you want me ... Just put me on the phone." Amy Fisher: Yeah. Well I think it just gets to
a point and, and I feel like there they're both bullying and insulting my intelligence at some
point. And so I just spell it out. I'm like, "Hey, why would I do something illegal for you? Why
would I jeopardize the reputation of this bar? Why would I jeopardize our liquor license? Why would I
do any of that for you? I don't care about you." Phoebe Judge: The other problem for bar owners is
what Jeremy described as an arbitrary and somewhat mysterious allocation process.
Each year, restaurants and bars find out how many bottles of Pappy Van Winkle they'll be
allowed to purchase, if they can purchase any at all. It's a pretty opaque system. So
if the bar down the street got six bottles of Pappy and you got none, it feels personal.
Jeremy Johnson: And so I just got fed up. I saw ... This happened two or three times, where I saw
a restaurant open up and, oh, wow, they managed to get some Pappy. And again, it's not my biggest
priority, but when you have guests constantly asking for it, it's a little frustrating to not be
able to get your hands on it. And it just kind of made me take it ... I think it makes some people
take it more seriously, but for me it made me take it way less seriously. And I just got so fed up
that I said, "You know what? If we ever actually get an allocation of this, I'm just going to make
Jello shots with this shit." [Phoebe laughs.] [Percussive, playful music.] And then we got an allocation and we did it. [Twangy banjos layer
onto percussive music.] Phoebe Judge: I guess it was like a "screw you" to the whole wild nutty Jeremy Johnson: Well, yeah. It's like ... This
is ridiculous. I don't like the way this is set up. I don't think it's fair. I think it's ridiculous that this bourbon is so overvalued by so many people. I'm tired
of hearing about it. I'm tired of Amy Fisher: The cultish fervor. Phoebe Judge: How much were you charging for one of these Jello shots? Jeremy Johnson: $10.
Phoebe Judge: Which is also kind of a "screw you" because the other bars are charging like
70 bucks, 80 bucks. Amy Fisher: Yeah, and people who had never gotten to try Pappy 20 or Pappy 15 got it. It was in old-fashioned Jello shot form, but
Jeremy Johnson: They got to taste it. Amy Fisher: Yeah. Jeremy Johnson: It was definitely very tongue in cheek. I don't see how you could take it so
personally, except that a lot of people did. Phoebe Judge: So what happens? So it kind
of gets out that you're making Jello shots with Pappy. What happens next? Jeremy Johnson: I think that's where the death threats came in.
Like, "Someone should do something really horrible to your place. Maybe I'll just have to come down
to your bar and burn it down." Amy Fisher: I actually ... Someone sent me a link to a subreddit. Jeremy Johnson: Oh yeah. Reddit went nuts.
Amy Fisher: And it was very graphic. And they were talking about like, "I'm going to find the guy that did this and I'm going to murder his whole family."
Jeremy Johnson: Didn't they use ... I think I remember the sentence "piss down his neck."
Amy Fisher: Yeah. Yeah, that was in there. I wasn't sure if I even wanted to share it
because you have a son. Jeremy Johnson: Yeah. Amy Fisher: And I was just like, "I can't even imagine receiving
something like this if I had a child." Phoebe Judge: The year after the Jello shots,
Jeremy says his Pappy allocation was cut in half. He threw his hands up, said, "What the hell? I'm bringing back the Jello shots."
And he also decided to sell glasses of Pappy at cost. No markup. Jeremy Johnson: The Jello shot thing initially we got death threats for. Once people were a
little more desensitized to it, I think, when we said we were doing it at cost,
we had a line out the door, and I was handing out tickets so that everyone would be limited to one.
And people were, like, shaking my hand. And they said, "Thank you so much. I really never thought
that I would get to try this stuff." Amy Fisher: Yeah. Phoebe Judge: He'll find out this month what his 2016 allocation is, if he gets anything at all.
Back in Frankfort, Kentucky, a year and a half had passed since the theft of the 65
cases of Pappy. Detectives finally got a break in the case last March, when someone sent a message to their "Text a Tip" line. The anonymous tip was very
specific. It said a man named Toby Kurtsinger had barrels of bourbon hidden behind his house.
When detectives reached Kurtsinger's property, they said they could smell the bourbon from where
they were standing. [Bouncy music.] Kurtsinger was arrested. As word of his arrest traveled around town, all kinds of
people just started showing up at the sheriff's office and coming forward with their stories.
"I bought nine bottles," "I bought nine cases." One man who bought a lot of bottles, gathered
them all up and had his lawyer deliver them to the sheriff's office. It did turn out to be an
inside job. Kurtsinger worked at Buffalo Trace and had very easy access to Pappy Van Winkle. And he
was running an elaborate bootleg whiskey business, directing eight accomplices to steal and sell not
only the Pappy, but also an entire pallet of Eagle Rare bourbon, and many barrels of Wild Turkey
over a period of many years. Here's Sheriff Pat Melton on the Frankfort local news last year.
Pat Melton: This is probably the tip of the iceberg. Reporter: A Franklin County grand jury indicted nine people on a charge of
engaging in organized crime. Melton said the attorney general's cyber crimes unit analyzed
phones and computers. He said they turned up communications about selling the bourbon
and involved, of all things, a softball league. Pat Melton: And how they interconnected throughout
the state, was friends through softball. Reporter: Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney Zach
Becker said so far investigators have recovered bottles and barrels of bourbon from Franklin,
Scott, Harrison, and Laurel counties. Melton believes there's more bourbon out there.
Phoebe Judge: We tried to speak with Sheriff Melton and with Zachary Becker about the
case. Both declined. Although Becker said they're close to reaching a negotiation.
Julian and Preston Van Winkle didn't want to comment on that theft either. I tried.
Julian Van Winkle III: Well, we really don't like to talk about this theft at all. Just don't even want to bring it up, but obviously weren't happy about it. But
it's just something that happened and we're going to move on. But it's too bad. But you know, it's
still an ongoing deal. So we just really don't Preston Van Winkle: Can't really comment on it too
much since it's an ongoing investigation. Phoebe Judge: Last month we searched for a
bottle of Pappy here in North Carolina. Not to buy it. We just wanted to taste it in a bar. After all this, we couldn't imagine how anything could be that good.
We eventually found a bartender who had some, not for sale. But he agreed to let us come and try it.
It's good. There's no doubt about that, but I didn't buy the sip I tasted, which maybe made it taste better. Michael Veach: It's a very good
bourbon. It's worth drinking. Phoebe Judge: Michael Veach. Michael Veach: Is it worth the prices that people are doing? Like I said,
not to me. There are many bourbons out there that I consider just as good, that are readily
available that don't cost an arm and a leg. Phoebe Judge: So if someone said to you,
"Here's a glass of Pappy, and here's a glass of Buffalo Trace Heritage. Pick one." Would you go for the Pappy? Michael Veach: It would really depend
upon a lot of different factors. The first question is, are these free? Phoebe Judge: They're free. Michael Veach: Okay. Well, if we're talking free,
I will go for ... I'd say, "Okay, I'll take both." [Laughs.] People always ask me, what's my favorite
bourbon? And my standard answer is, "What are you buying me?" Because my favorite is free bourbon.
[Laughs.] Phoebe Judge: Criminal is produced by Lauren Spohrer and me. Audio mix by Rob Byers.
This episode was produced with help from Gravy, a podcast from the Southern Foodways Alliance.
Special thanks to Tina Antolini, Alice Wilder, and Gary Crunkleton. Julienne Alexander makes original
illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. We're
on Facebook and Twitter, @CriminalShow. Criminal is recorded in the studios of North Carolina Public Radio, WUNC. We're a proud member of Radiotopia from PRX, a collective of the
13 best podcasts around. Radiotopia from PRX is supported by the Knight Foundation and MailChimp,
celebrating creativity, chaos and teamwork. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
Jingle: Radiotopia. From PRX. 11

When it comes to Kentucky bourbon, Pappy Van Winkle is among the most exclusive offered, according to food writer Brett Anderson. The bourbon is prized for its wheat-base and special barrels for aging handpicked by Julian Van Winkle III, the president of Old Rip Van Winkle Distillery. It doesn’t matter who you are or how much money you have — you can’t get it unless you’re exceptionally lucky or willing to break the law. The Pappy frenzy has the police, bartenders, and even the Van Winkle family themselves wringing their hands.

Music in this episode: “Acoustic Blues” by Jason Shaw “One More Round” by David Szesztay “Small Bummer” by Podington Bear “Crime Story” by David Szesztay “Tennessee Hayride” by Jason Shaw “Starday” by Podington Bear “Waiting” by David Szesztay

Criminal is a show about people who’ve done wrong, been wronged, or gotten caught somewhere in the middle. Hosted by Phoebe Judge. Part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

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Episode transcripts are posted on our website https://thisiscriminal.com/.

Episode 40 originally published 4/1/16 https://thisiscriminal.com/episode-40-pappy-4-1-2016

Brief Summary

Brett Anderson's quest for Pappy Van Winkle bourbon reveals black market dealings and a notorious theft from Buffalo Trace Distillery.

Key points

The Hunt for Pappy Van Winkle. Brett Anderson's quest for the elusive bourbon reveals the lengths people go to for it.
The Great Bourbon Heist. In 2013, 65 cases of Pappy Van Winkle vanished without a trace, leading to speculation of an inside job.
Jello Shots with Pappy. A bar owner’s cheeky response to bourbon scarcity leads to unexpected backlash and death threats.
The Value of Bourbon. Michael Veach discusses whether certain bourbons are worth their high prices.
Choosing Between Bourbons. A humorous exchange about choosing between Pappy and Buffalo Trace Heritage.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

You might spend two months' rent on a bottle of booze.

Brett Anderson discussing the lengths people go to for Pappy.

2:53WatchNov 15, 2022

Tension

60/ 100Some tension

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