Mindhunter /// Part 3 /// 870 | Forensic Files

[Music] Welcome to True Crime Garage. Wherever you are, whatever you are doing, thanks
for listening. I'm your host, Nick, and with me as always is a man whose future is so bright that he has to wear
sunglasses. Here is the captain. >> That's right, TCG sunglasses. It's good to be seen and good to see you. Thanks
for listening. Thanks for telling a friend. [Music] This week we are featuring the one and
only Hazy IPA by the adventurous brewers over at Great Divide Brewing Company. Hazy IPA is a juicy and balanced mix of
citrus hops that bring out the aromatic characteristics of papaya and mango and finishes with a hint of ripe
strawberries. ABV 6.2% garage grade four out of five bottle caps. And let's give
some thanks, some praise, some cheers to our good garage friends for helping us fill up the old garage fridge. First up,
a cheers to Caroline Brian from Benicia, California. >> And a big we like your trip goes out to
Nat in Darby, UK. >> Here's a cheers to Christa in Skenctity, New York. And last, but certainly not
least, this garage friend says, "Let's do a shout out to my pups. Adopt don't shop." Cheers to Leila, Stanley, and
Winston from Glen View, Illinois. Milk bones all around. Thank you to everyone for contributing to this week's beer
fund. >> Yeah, milk bones in the air. BW are you in? Beer run. You need more true crime
garage for your ear balls. Yes, you do. Check out our show off the record on Patreon or Apple Podcast. You just hit
subscribe and there you go. Colonel, that's enough of the business. All right, everybody. Gather around, grab a
chair, grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. Episode [Music] 4 opens with the not so trusty ADT
man creeping around inside someone's home. He turns the corner and is met with the homeowner who is busy doing
dishes at the kitchen sink. At this point, we can infer that the ADT serviceman is becoming BTK or already
has submitted to some of his deepseated and guarded urges of binding, torturing,
and killing a victim or victims, but he is actually working in his ADT capacity during this scene, and he's not setting
up to commit a murder. >> Well, I think that's what they're trying to imply is, oh, we know this guy is a
murderer. We know he's planning out murders. Is he going to kill this woman? And then we find out, nope. He's doing
his ADT job and telling her how he would secure the house. >> Yeah. And what's what's interesting here
too is the methods that Dennis Rder would ultimately use, right? He would he would use a lot of his time that he was
supposed to be studying. Remember, he was continuing his education. He would use that time to be away from his wife
and say that he's studying or he's going to the library, that he was at the college campus, but a lot of those times
he's out trolling and stalking victims or or future projects as he called them. And then his capacity as the ADT man
allows him into the homes of many people day after day where he is getting used to the layout of people's homes. He's
getting used to being inside of their homes. And we know that with the exception of his first murders, a lot of
the times he was breaking into the homes when the victim would be gone and staying and waiting for them to return
home and then intercept them, ambush them when they come through the front door. Back on the road, Bill Tench and
Holden Ford exit their very cool, dark gray 1971 Plymouth satellite. They are in Richmond, Virginia to interview
serial killer Monty Rissell. They are discussing how Monty killed the victims with tench quizzing Holden Ford prior to
going in. Russell likely had severe abandonment issues and a deep hatred for women. His mother was married and
divorced twice by the time he was 12. His biological father left the home when Russell was seven. Then the family moved
from his hometown of Wellington, Kansas. The family was moving around. This is when Russell was already robbing and
raping from the ages of 14 to 17. So once again here, Captain, this is another real life killer, real life
serial killer that is depicted in the series. A little bit more about his crimes. on August 4th, 1976, Monty
Rissell, who later says that he was angry with his ex-girlfriend after seeing her with another man. He says
that he spotted 26-year-old Aurora Marina Gabbor, who was living in the same apartment complex as Russell on
Armistead Street in Alexandria, Virginia. Rristle claimed he grew angry with her after she allowed him to have
sex with her. Again, these are his words. Remember, these these guys lie about just about everything,
>> right? >> And she made it seem like she enjoyed it. So, he drowned her in a nearby
ravine. Later, Rissell plead guilty to five murders. Three of his victims were stabbed to drown. He became eligible for
parole in 1995 and since then he has received an annual parole review every November and thankfully each time he has
been denied. >> Isn't this the serial killer that asked them for Big Red? >> Yes, he is. And I like Tench's
straightforward approach to the interview. He tells Russell that they are trying to figure out why people like
Rristle do what they do. Rristle says he would like to know as well. This is this
is intriguing too here captain because this is something that we find with a lot of these types saying we want to
figure out why you do what you do and replying yeah I would like to know as well and when we spoke with John Douglas
that was a question I had asked him was is it true that your findings are that these guys want to talk to you just as
much as you want to talk to them because some of them don't understand why they are are the way that they are.
>> Well, you have to remember when Dmer is caught and the FBI is talking to him,
they they're they basically tell him, you know, you can make a deal with us, you can get something in return. And all
he asks for is, can you help me figure out why I am the way I am? >> Well, to this in the scene here, Russell
asks the agents if they're going to try to find a cure. He tells them that he's not really interested in talking with
the feds and Tench fires up a dog. This is cigarette number 18 in series 1, season 1. And Tench threatens to just
leave. Then Russell describes the first murder for the road agents. So he wants to talk even though he claims that he
doesn't. Rissell says that he stabbed the second victim because after he had abducted her, she would not shut up. But
he let one victim go because when she was upset after he abducted her, she explained that her father recently died
of cancer. This seemed to touch or affect him in a way that he chose to let her go. After this, the road agents
get into a little tiff. Once back in the car, Bill Tench is pointing out how Rristle is an Olympic class liar. After
a surprise car accident, the boys are at a bar. It looks like they are taking down some whisies. Neat. Tench is
smoking cigarette number 19. Bill starts telling Holden that he and his wife Nancy adopted a kid. In real life,
Robert Wrestler had three kids, none that were adopted. Back at the office, the agents are
talking with Dr. Wendy Carr about Monty Russell. They stumble into a conversation about triggers, stresses,
and control. Dr. Carr is explaining that these men, what they are experiencing is
normal. However, they process it different. The way that they process their life experiences is not normal.
Then we see Bill Tench on the front porch of his home smoking where he tries to hug his son before leaving the house
with Holden. They go back to see Monty Bristle once again. This time they bring, you nailed it, Captain Big Red
soda with them as he had requested. Russell talks about his upbringing, the divorce, the moving around, physical
abuse. He says that no one wanted him. They learned that Russell sees himself as the real victim here. And we find
that time and time again with some of these serial killers that some of them they see themselves as victims and then
they victimize people in their adult life. Now it's back to roadtime teaching and the agents are in Altuna,
Pennsylvania where we hear motive means and opportunity. What plus y equals who?
This is all part of their teachings. Outside of the police station, Tench fires up a dog. Cigarette number 21. The
agents are approached by an officer. He explained that he had recovered a victim. So, this victim is Beverly Jean
Shaw, age 22. The police think that the victim was stored somewhere before later
being found in the local dump. The victim's wrists were removed postmortem. Now, we wanted to figure out if this was
a real case. This is one of those ones here, Captain, that's a little bit more difficult to determine if it's real, but
it certainly has the the markings of being potentially real or connected to some real cases. So, I found this from
refinery29.com and it says, "According to a 1988 article in the Altuna Mir on June 2nd,
1979, a 22year-old woman named Betty Jean Shade had a fight with her live-in boyfriend, Charles Butch Salt. She was
planning on leaving him. Still, she went on a drive with Salt, his brother, Michael, and his and sister Catherine.
Salt and Shade went on a walk so they could talk. But when they didn't return, Catherine
went searching for her brother and found him beating Shade to death. Shade died of head and stab wounds. The trio then
transported Shade's body to the garbage dump 3 days after the killing. The name Beverly Jean may also be in regard to a
murder that took place in Dallas, potentially Dallas, Texas in 1970. This is Billy Jean Hope was the victim.
Mother of three and popular suburban housewife. She was murdered in her large mansion. The crime to this date remains
unsolved. Though new information, which emerged in 2016, brought in another suspect. This was Beverly Jean's
exbroin-law. For those that have watched the series and watched this particular episode and
as this case plays out for the agents on Minehunter, you can see the similarities
in the two cases that we just discussed. Holden explains to the Altuna cops that
they need to focus on what they know about the victim and they deliver a short vague profile saying white male
loner who hunts at night who will likely kill again. But this also shows how local law enforcement is treating the
locals with too much respect. They're not treating this as a homicide investigation. They're almost pampering
some of these individuals that should be suspects. >> Yeah. And this with this short vague
profile, I think what this is meant to do on the show is to show the agents their lack of experience at this time,
right? that they're not seasoned profilers by this time. Really, what they're doing is white male loner who
who hunts at night is super vague obviously, but it also would just fall into with what little they know at the
time. And we know that the way that this is going to play out does not involve someone who's out hunting for a victim
at night. Yeah, I agree with you and also disagree with you because yes, inexperienced when it comes to profiling
the killer that they're looking for, but I I think this shows like before the case when when Holden says, "Hey, we're
in the dark." Well, they're not in the dark anymore. Maybe they're not completely in the light, but that door
has cracked open. And you see that their experience and basically the path of their thought ways are coming through in
the interrogation of this case during the show and shows that they're a couple steps ahead of where they were in for in
previous investigations. And this reminds me with some of the talks we've done with serial killer experts and they
talk about a lot of the different myths that surround serial killers and you hear it there. White male loner who
hunts at night. In fact, there's a there's a case where out in New Jersey, the Garden State Parkway murders, the
two women were killed in the early morning hours, and police there said that one of the detectives said it
couldn't be the work of a serial killer. Meanwhile, this is still unsolved. It has the markings of a serial killer. We
can't prove that because we don't know who did it, but the detective said it can't be. It's not a serial killer
because a serial killer would have killed them at night and well they sorry detective but they kill any time of day.
Back to the show. They go out to this dump site where Holden says that the victim was disposed of just like a piece
of trash. And unfortunately we've seen that in so many cases that we've covered here in the garage. The officer says
folks loved Beverly Jean. At the body recovery site, the agents want to they say they want to talk to
the man who found the body. They do go to this man. They talk with him. He looks shady. He has a record. He tells
the agents that he waited until the next morning to report finding the body. He says part of that was because he does
have a police record and he thought they would be looking at him. Holden intent talking about the case and the likely
perpetrator. It looks like Holden Ford here is thinking that this is probably the work of a sequence
killer. That's what they're calling serial killers before they coin the term. >> Right. This would go along with the
white male loner who hunts at night. But then Bill Tench is reminding Holden that
nine times out of ten it's the husband or boyfriend. It's not a serial killer. Back at the office, the agents are
talking with Dr. Wendy Carr. They start to getting into figuring out the differences between organized and
disorganized killers. And the episode ends with the agents getting a stern talking to by the boss man at the
bureau. And then he tells them that Congress is interested in their research and they are getting $385,000
in funding for their research. So ladies and gentlemen, let the mind hunting begin.
>> Cha-ching. >> Episode five opens up at Park City, Kansas. We see our ADT serviceman off
duty, out of uniform, mailing a letter with very thick black gloves on. This, of course, we know to be true, right? We
know that BTK, aka the ADT serviceman, did communicate with both the local news and police. He sent letters to both
newspaper and television outlets. One of the letters, and we went through a lot of this in our BTK coverage here,
but one of the letters was the I did it letter, which arrived in October of 1974
when Raider sent the I did it letter to the Witchita Eagle using the pseudonym BTK, taking responsibility for the Otto
murders and offering details about the crime not previously made public. Series 1 is supposed to start off and take
place mostly in 1977, but Raider, we know Raider did communicate in with the police in 1977.
So, not the I did it letter from 1974, but we have a communication that was not a letter. It was on December 9th, 1977.
One day after he killed Nancy Fox, Dennis Raider called police from a pay phone and told them they would find
Fox's body at her home. But for a letter communication to line up here, I believe
it is the how many do I have to kill letter that Raider mailed on February 10th, 1978 to KK
News, a Witchah television station claiming responsibility for the Otero murders along with those of Katherine
Bright, Shirley Relford, and Nancy Fox. He suggested many possible names for himself in this letter, including BTK,
and demanded media attention, saying, "How many do I have to kill before I get a name in the paper or some national
attention?" The letter was traced to a copy machine at the Witchah State University Library, where we do know
that Dennis Rder was a student at that time. So, you know, he went undetected, unidentified for so long, but you you
have some information on this guy, right? Like the I did it letter. I think they kind of just dismissed that and
they were looking at other suspects in the otter murders and that is why Ra Raider for well really captain for a
multitude of reasons he kept reaching out to them. He wanted to get his name in the paper. He wanted his moniker BTK
to be known and feared, but he also wanted BTK to get credit for some of these murders. So, he goes undetected
for so long. But your unidentified serial killer, you know a few things about him. You know that he is male. You
know that he wears glasses. And he's someone that uses the copy machine at Witchah State University.
>> Well, you also know he's white. In 1977, there were approximately 18,000 students
and faculty at Witchah State University. And we know that the perpetrator wears glasses because
he dropped his glasses at Nancy Fox's house, a murder, and that he deemed Project
Foxhound. small detail that may have been on purpose or just a matter of happen stance. Having never been to Park
City, Kansas, but the ADT mans the letter at a blue postal box on North Third Street here. Again, losing my
mind. I'm looking at the details in the background, but I found North Third Street to be interesting because one of
the things that I found incredibly annoying and just frankly dumb about Dennis Raider was how he seemed to be
shocked that the police failed to pick up on subtle commonalities in his murders. Raider wanted the police to be
able to connect these murders. Again, it goes back to him wanting credit for it.
He wants to make a name for BTK. Raider almost treats these clues for the cops as ways that they can create links
between his crimes, but they are so subtle that nobody would pick up on any of the stuff. And frankly, they're just
dumb. When they law enforcement and the media did not pick up on these and broadcast them to the public, he had to
announce himself to the world, coming up with many monikers that the media could
call him. And it's so desperate and frankly pathetic that he's creating his own name, sending not just creating his
own name, sending a long list of suggestions of names to be called. So here the postal box is on North Thirdrd
Street. Years after being caught, he has said things that the cops missed, right?
He look, oh, I fooled him. The cops missed this or the cops missed that. One of those claims that Dennis Rder makes
is the number three and its unknown importance to the killer. >> Yeah, but at the end of the day, they
caught you. So those little details they missed, who cares? You're caught. You lost. Dennis Raider, BTK, or versions of
such have been depicted in several books, movies, and on TV prior to Mine Hunter season 1. Some of my favorites, I
know we've talked about some of these here before in the garage, but we have Stephen King,
who has said that his novella, A Good Marriage, later turned into a film, were inspired by the BTK killer. Silence of
the Lamb's novelist Thomas Harris has said that the character of Francis Dollarhide in his 1981 novel Red Dragon
is partially based on the then unidentified BTK killer. The 2004 Law and Order Special Victims Unit episode Scavenger
is based on the case. And episode 15 of season 1 of Criminal Minds titled Unfinished Business is based on the BTK
murders. And that one's about the they call the killer there the Keystone Killer, a serial killer that resurfaces
after 18 years of inactivity. The movie The Clove Hitch Killer was inspired by Dennis Rder. The film takes place in a
small Kentucky town. The town and its residents are haunted by the memory of the Clove Hitch Killer and an infamous
serial killer who bound and then strangled 10 female victims before disappearing 10 years earlier.
[Music] [Music] All right, we are back. Tall can hands in the air. And I can say this uh for
all the listeners out there, Colonel, we appreciate you losing your mind in these
Mind Hunter episodes. >> It has been lost. And if anybody finds it, please email the show or hit me up
on X. Tall can hands in the air, my friends. So now the boys go back to Altuna, Pennsylvania to work on that
Beverly Jean case. Bill Tench is angry at the office, the police office, because because they let the murdered
woman's boyfriend know in advance that they would be coming to talk to him. years later, John Douglas would be
promoted to unit chief of the investigative support unit. So, this is where I think that maybe the genesis of
these profilers actively working cases may have started, right? Because we're seeing they're out
to teach the the police station and the officers and they keep kind of catching these cases along the way. Well, when
John Douglas is promoted to this unit chief of the investigative support unit, that's
pretty much all this unit does. They go out to other locations and work handinand with the local authorities on
a case that that is needs needs their help, needs their assistance for for any number of reasons. Sometimes it's an
unsolved case. Sometimes they have the guy, but they need to come up with ways to get him to confess or better ways of
finding more evidence tying him to the crime. Bill Tench explains to the boyfriend
of the murder victim, this his name is Benjamin, that they are from a particular unit at the FBI and that they
investigate murders that exhibit a sexual component. his words, "We investigate murders when there is a
sexual angle." That's his exact words. Benjamin starts crying. This has an effect on the investigators. The cops
believe that Benjamin is a victim. Holden Ford seems bothered by Benjamin's crying, and Bill Tench says he doesn't
believe the crying at all. He thinks it's just a show. And it's 11 minutes into this episode before we see Bill
Tench smoking a cigarette. So it looks like he's cutting back. Tench Tench then schools Holden and the Altuna cop a bit
explaining why the killer of Beverly Jean is local and not some traveling madman. Next, we have a car ride with
Holden and Dr. Wendy Carr discussing psychopaths. They discuss if the victim had some kind of sexual power and
control over the boyfriend, Benjamin. Carr points out that this murder and the details of such exhibits two different
presentations. This is her starting to put together that we may be dealing with more than
one person being responsible for this murder. When we're back at the office, the basement office, so cozy down there
in the basement at Quantico. a little more cozy than a garage. >> Some more information from the
background. You can see a map behind Holden Ford and Tench. And they have 21 I this is how many I
could count. So if this number is not accurate, my apologies. But it looked like there were 21 push pins in this
United States map. And I'm guessing that each push pin represents a killer that they would like to interview. So,
pausing the frame and zooming in, I could identify a few of the names that were tacked onto these push pins. One is
Brudos, Jerry Brudos, serial killer. One is Corona, a serial killer from California. All of these, the ones that
I could identify were California cases because I couldn't see other parts of the map and I didn't want to try to
guess the serial killers uh from other locations. Mullen is one, Manson is one, and Greenwood. Um
Greenwood was a killer in California as well. So now that they have this idea that we might be dealing with more than
one person being responsible for the murder, they want to talk to Frank Janderman. So this is the brother-in-law
of the boyfriend. They want to talk to him because he has a record. He's got a history of violence. So Janderman is the
brother-in-law of the boyfriend and suspect Benjamin Cartwright. And during this interview process, Tench has a
cigarette. Now we go back to the hotel room where Bill Tench and Holden Ford examine the case file. Tench is
obviously annoyed that they have to share a room while on the road. Because of the mutilation to the body of the
victim, Holden Ford seems stuck on the idea of a sequence killer. Tench rips another butt during this scene.
Eventually, Rose, this is Benjamin's sister, and Frank's wife goes to the police and confesses to some kind of
involvement. So, all three were involved in killing Beverly Jean. Well, they also
tape her confession and when the when it's played back to the doctor, she actually is the one that realizes that
her involvement is deeper and maybe even darker than what she's confessing to. And we we discussed some of the
similarities to those other cases. This is from the Altuna Mir that I referenced earlier. We have information
that in this case of Betty Jean Shade that the victim died from head and stab wounds, the three, the trio, which is
the brother and sister and the >> boyfriend >> boyfriend living boyfriend transported
Shade's body to the garbage dump three days after the killing. And it's very similar that one of the perpetrators,
the living boyfriend in this real life story, did return to the body to further mutilate it while she was before she was
found. In the real life case, police first arrested Catherine and Michael Sult, then arrested Charles, who was on
a Greyhound bus to Pittsburgh, trying to get away travel to Pittsburgh. Though the jury sentenced Charles Salt to
death, the trial judge overruled the decision and gave him a life sentence. He's currently serving out his sentence
in the state correctional institution in Huntington, Pennsylvania. Episode 6 opens once again in Park City, Kansas.
Here we see the ADT serviceman watching TV and incessantly tying knots and untying them. There is a woman with him
in the living room and presumably she is his wife and she is tending to the child. The ADT serviceman scenes, cold
opening, whatever you want to call them. I've seen online I think the this is even a better description. They they
refer to him as the creepy cold opening. You have to kind of try to piece things
together on these scenes because there's often little to no talking at all in the
scene. >> Right. This of course all rings true for the ADT serviceman known to us as Dennis
Raider, the nightmare of Witchita, the bind, torture, kill BTK serial killer. Dennis Rder was married and has two
children. What involvement any of these three have with Dennis Raider today as he wasted away in a prison cell is not
known to a great extent publicly. Oh, and something from earlier here, Captain at ADT, Raider was nicknamed the blue
bookman by his co-workers because he always followed the rules and scolded others for doing as much as making small
talk during work hours. Yeah, I think he mentioned that in episode two. >> We do know that on May 22nd, 1971,
Dennis Rider married Paula Deetsz and then they had two children, Carrie and Brian. Raider was arrested driving from
work to his home to have lunch with his wife in Park City a little afternoon on February 25, 2005. On February 28th, he
was charged with 10 counts of murder. And on June 27th, 2005, at a scheduled trial date, Raider changed his plea to
guilty, he described the murders, which he referred to as projects, in detail, to the court and made no apologies.
Later in July, this is July 26th of 2005, Deetsz was granted an emergency divorce from Dennis Rder. And we have to
point out here that all of Dennis Raiders's known crimes or the crimes that he has confessed to were committed
while he was married. >> Well, and we don't know the complete arc of Mind Hunter because it was scheduled
to last five seasons. But we think what is being set up by these little BTK glimpses is that eventually it'll come
to a head and then the FBI will be going after and capturing BTK and that would be the end of the series, right? And
remember, it was the local authorities that cracked the case and discovered the identity of BTK. I think my guess is
that they were attempting to go for the one that John Douglas couldn't catch, >> right?
>> To to to show like it's it's almost like you're showing the ultimate good guy or
the hero versus the ultimate evil bad guy and he's tormented because he cannot catch BTK. And if you read Douglas's BTK
book, he openly talks about the frustration of trying to profile BTK because he says that there were there
were closed door arguments when they would put their get their team together and try to profile BTK. They they
couldn't agree on a lot of portions of the profile. is John Douglas's book called Inside the Mind of BTK.
>> Yeah. Yeah. And he he does interview him at the end of the book, but but he talks
about the frustration of not being able to catch him and then these these arguments sometimes that got very heated
between different agents working the case on trying to get inside of the mind of BTK. A little more from his life
here, personal life. In 2019, Raider's daughter, Carrie Rosson, published her book, A Serial Killer's Daughter: My
Story of Faith, Love, and Overcoming, where she goes over her childhood and raiders role and such. In an interview
with ABC News, Carrie stated that she writes to her father and has now given him forgiven him, but still struggles to
reconcile her normal childhood with the knowledge that she was raised by the BTK
killer. Well, she's also become involved in the true crime world. And you can see
her on the new Long Island serial killer documentary talking about what the family and what the children are
probably going through now with the arrest of their father and husband Rex Herman. I've talked to a couple of
experts that seem to think that BTK doesn't have a whole lot of many days left, right? not too many days left for
BTK that that he's in quite bad shape and will probably pass away, die in prison this year or next year. This
aligns with with something that we know to be true here because Carrie went and visited her father in 2003, visited her
father, Dennis Rder, in prison in 2020, sorry, 2023. reported him as quote rotting and
unhappy and saying that quote he's lost like 7 in and he's in a wheelchair. >> That's a lot of inches to lose off your
penis. Thinking of of this though, it saddens me because he committed these crimes.
He worked very hard cuz he wanted to be recognized. He wanted the BTK to be recognized. I
don't know if he necessarily wanted to be caught, but then when he was caught because of our fascination with him, he
then gets a platform and then he didn't really spend, you know, a huge amount of
his life behind bars at the 2024 Crime Con in Nashville, Tennessee. We were there. Carrie presented excerpts from
her father's journal that revealed he had sexually abused her when she was a child.
>> Was she not aware of that? >> I don't think that she was. And this, you know, I know that we said that
they're all liars, but I also believe in what we've talked about just earlier this episode that they the serial
killers don't fully understand themselves or why they do what they do. >> In Kathleen Rams's BTK book, she traded
letters with Dennis Rider for a long time before putting together her book. And he states to her many times that he
is not like other serial killers. That he actually does possess the ability to love. That he he was loved and he has
loved. And I again I would spit in this man's face because and call him a liar because you can claim that you know he
said I never wanted to hurt my wife. I never wanted to hurt my kids. That that getting caught. I didn't care about
getting caught. I only I only cared that it was going to hurt my family because I
loved them. Well, if you love them, then maybe don't go out and murder and torture other families and women and
children. This 2024 Crime Con revelation, maybe also don't sexually abuse your child.
>> But I'm going to push back a little bit though because I I do think again, like
you said, they're all liars. But you wonder because he has these time periods, these long breaks. Is this is
this him thinking that, well, I'm just maybe done with that life. I I committed these crimes. I can live in this weird
fantasy world in my head. He provided for his family. He raised his daughter. He was around. He was an active member
in the community. him more so than other killers seem to be able to have two different lives. I mean, am I crazy for
thinking that? >> No, you're not. And that's something worth exploring. And many people have
attempted to do so, not just with BTK, but with others. But I guess >> I mean, I agree with everything you're
saying, >> right? My thought would be is all of the things you mentioned where Dennis Rder
might say that that those are signs of love for my for my family. I would say is it though Dennis or is it just your
attempt to blend in >> because and he calls it cubism where he he talks about himself as um I know
cubism is like a form an art form. Don't don't ask me to explain that. But >> I don't know about the arts.
>> I think he called it cubing or cubism. And what he meant by that is that he has
multiple sides to him. You can only see the front of the cube, right? Each each side or panel of the cube is a different
part of Dennis Raider of BTK. BTK is one of those parts, but you can only see the
front panel, the front side of the cube. That's what he chose to show everybody.
And that part of the cube to me is everything you just said, the the working, providing for your family, uh,
being a member of your community. Yeah, he was a member of the the Boy Scouts with his son, but he also pretended to
have a headache to go to bed early in his tent. And instead of going to bed, he actually snuck off, drove, murdered,
tortured a woman, and then took a bunch of pictures of her with a Polaroid camera that he would keep for later that
he would bring to his happy little home with his wife and two kids. And it also goes back to the idea of all of his
confessed murders. He committed them while he was married. Well, he was already a supposed to be a family man
when he's doing a lot of these killings. And then you're right though, I you know, he does kind of go dormant for
quite a period of time. Does resurface. We we we have to mention that he didn't get completely out of the game. he
resurfaced. But when he was after he was arrested and talking to the police, one
thing that is good about BTK is he likes to talk about himself. He thinks he's something special and he's happy to
share that with the world. >> Edmund Kemper type. >> So, we get to learn a lot about him. And
one thing he says is that, and this is really just quite disgusting, but >> it's called a true crime show.
>> He says, "I never stopped hunting. I was I always had these projects. I just didn't go to the point of killing
anybody. >> Well, but that's what he says in the in the new Long Island serial killer
documentary. BTK is saying, "Hey, Rex, you're you're just one of me." And I wonder if we need to go a step further
because we have these categories of organized and disorganized. And I wonder if this should be a category that
they're researching is the c the the cubism, the husband, father, family man, serial killer, which Rex Herman, Dennis
Rider, the Golden State Killer, all of these types are Gary Ridgeway as well. The
>> I mean, you could make an argument Bundy was like that. >> Absolutely. Yes, exactly. Because he usually had a
significant other when he was committing a lot of his murders and I one of his girlfriends had a a child. And all of
these types are very much of the organized type of serial killer. >> Right. >> The next scene here, Captain has Dr.
Wendy Carr having a one-on-one meeting with Holden Ford and Bill Tench's boss. This is agent Sheepard. He offers Wendy
a job heading the behavioral science unit to which she says, "No, I have a job in Boston." So, while much of the
Wendy Carr character is very, very different from the real life version, a one Dr. Anne Burgess, who if you
attended Crime Con Denver, you already know that Dr. Burgess is an absolute delight and a true gem. And we will get
to know her a bit more as we get to know the Wendy Carr character. >> And you did a great interview with her
back in the day on Off the Record, which we probably should release after part three and four of our Mind Hunter
series. >> Yeah, cuz that's from the Stitcher days. So, this would be speaking of
resurfacing, that interview should resurface, right? >> There you go. But so we it's important
to note here that while Dr. Burgess was never a actual FBI agent, she did absolutely work for the FBI in a very
impactful and incredibly important role for many years. She was recruited by one
of my favorites, the late great and brilliant Roy Hazelwood. We have recommended his books here in the
garage. Those books are The Evil That Men Do and Dark Dreams. Now, I do not believe that the Agent Shepherd
character is supposed to be or based on Hazlewood. They are there's far too many
differences. Roy Hazelwood had a much more hands-on role with the BSU than what the Shepherd character has in the
show, and he was both a leader and a teacher for the BSU. Hazelwood was a profiler of sex crimes. In 1980, Roy
Hazelwood developed the distinction between organized and disorganized murderers, a concept that is still used
by law enforcement to help apprehend criminals. He also defined the six categories of rapist. There's the power
reassurance, power assertive, anger retaliatory, anger ex excitation, opportunistic, and gang. of the six
types of rapist categories of rapists, he says that the anger excitation is by far the most dangerous and the hardest
to capture. And Roy Hazelwood also offered the theory that there is no cure for pedophilia or sexual sadist. He did
some very important work and those are books that do not get enough recognition. They're not looked to as
much as Douglas's books or Robert Wrestler's books. The Wendy Carr character does not
accept the job and Shepard tells her to take her time. >> She's absolutely one of my favorite
characters in this whole series. If she didn't win an award, she should have. >> Her character is fantastic. The actress
that plays Wendy Carr is fantastic. All three of the the main characters, the their acting skills are incredibly
impressive and really the way that they kind of orchestrate and choreograph their movements, their facial
expressions, and their reactions to each other's characters throughout the different scenes is is something that I
think I had to go back and see a second time during this exercise here to fully appreciate. The next scene, we go to an
interrogation room in Altuna. Continuing on with their investigation, Bill Tench
has some questions for one of our murder suspects. Holton Ford is recording this
interview. Tench is getting verbally aggressive with Benjamin or Benji as they're calling him by this point.
Remember, this is Beverly Jean's supposed boyfriend. Tench wants to know why would you do that to Beverly Jean
Benji? A fractured jaw, two black eyes, 14 stab wounds, and the list goes on and
on. [Music] All right, I want to thank you for joining us here in part three of our
Mine Hunter series. So much more to get to. Stick around for the finale. And until then, be good, be kind, and don't
litter. [Music] [Applause] [Music]

Mindhunter ////// Part 3

Part 3 of 4

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One of True Crime Garage's favorite Crime series of all time is the Netflix original Mindhunter. Mindhunter is mostly real true crime tales from the F.B.I. Season One kicks things off in 1977 with legendary agents John Douglas and Robert Ressler partnering up and stepping into the minds and the madness of serial killers. Join Nic & the Captain as they celebrate this great series by exploring the true crime tales from the Mindhunters and the F.B.I.

Beer of the Week - Hazy IPA by Great Divide Brewing Company

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Brief Summary

The episode discusses the BTK killer, Monty Rissell's interview, and the investigation of Beverly Jean Shaw's murder.

Key points

Welcome to True Crime Garage. Join Nick and the Captain as they dive into true crime stories.
Hazy IPA Review. This week's featured beer is a juicy Hazy IPA with fruity notes.
The ADT Serviceman's Dark Side. The episode opens with an ADT serviceman who has sinister intentions.
Interviewing Monty Rissell. Agents interview serial killer Monty Rissell, uncovering his troubled past.
The Victim's Profile. Agents discuss the profile of a victim found in a local dump.
The Clove Hitch Killer. A serial killer resurfaces after 18 years, haunting a small Kentucky town.

Episode highlights

Episode quotes

Let's talk some true crime.

Introduction to the episode.

2:28WatchSep 17, 2025

Tension

65/ 100Some tension

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